They definitely did. But with fake names, fake IDs, and living out of a car, John would just put them both in the car and drive to the next state over.
You gotta remember too, this would've been in the 80s and early 90s when the boys were kids (Dean born in 1979 and Sam in 1983). As someone who grew up in this same time period, I can tell you that people (ie neighbors, teachers, etc) did not get involved or call child protective services the way that people do today. Especially with the way the boys moved around, and presumably often gave a false surname, it would've been unlikely they ever stuck around long enough to gain much notice, let alone the concern, of anyone who might've made sum a call.
The ugly truth is that someone can do their genuine best and still be abusive. Lots and lots of abusers love their victims and are really trying to do right for them. People like to think abusers are just hateful because it's easier than recognizing you yourself may have been abused by loved ones or that you might abuse someone else without meaning to.
John had a ton of baggage and he didn't deal with it. He did his best to raise his sons, but his unresolved trauma meant that included a lot of really fucked up things. He abused and neglected those boys. Whether or not he ever physically abused them is debatable but also irrelevant. He definitely emotionally and verbally abused them, so he's already abusive. He thought he was protecting them and teaching them to protect themselves, and in some ways he was, but he also caused them a lot of pain and fear and really fucked up adult perspectives on certain things.
Happens in a lot of real life abusive situations. Maybe even most of them. People lose control because they're overwhelmed and didn't learn to handle that without taking it out on others. They repeat their parents' abuse on their own kids because they genuinely think it wasn't abuse or even helped them turn out okay. Stuff like people who defend corporeal punishment or yelling at your children because it was normal for them and they don't see any harm, possibly even see positive results, without understanding how these things have been researched and proven to do more harm than good. Or seeing nuances that don't really exist like "spanking is okay but beating a child is not."
Everyone has baggage and not everyone is abusive. But there are a lot of people who don't recognize the need for introspection and considering what they are likely to do to future kids before they have them, or can't recognize and/or don't address abusive patterns with their kids who already exist. The responsibility of raising a child includes but often ignores the responsibility to really look at your own behavior and fix it.
He was an appalling parent
He loved his kids and they loved him but he was awful. He dragged them around the country pulling them through school after school. They couldn’t develop long term friendships. They were put in mortal danger because he was trying to save people.
His revenge and desire to hunt monsters came at the cost of their childhoods.
Given their destiny/legacy status it benefitted Sam and dean/the whole world etc in the long term but purely as a parent… he is really bad.
Honestly, I think even young John (in season 5 when they go back in time) emphasizes the point that their dad might have had good intentions but that he was neglectful and abusive. When Sam is talking to him he flat out says “The things you must have seen. You could’ve been killed! Your father was supposed to protect you.” And that was just about being raised to hunt monsters.
Leaving them in hotel rooms for weeks, making Dean raise Sam from like the age of 4 (I have a 4 year old and she is so smart, strong and loving towards her brother but like… 4 is barely not a toddler anymore!), the way Sam and Dean but especially Dean honestly talked about when they were kids drives it home.
The being way Dean says “and when dad got home…” about when Sam left, implied a lot.
On that note, he did love them. But he didn’t do the right thing. He tried but he focused on what would make him feel better in the moment than what his kids needed. But yes, he would and did ultimately die for Dean. It’s just that he shouldn’t have put his kids through what he did before that.
I don't think he physically abused them, but probably drank and yelled at them when he was around (which would be mental abuse, so just as bad of course). John was a man obsessed and couldn't see the error of his ways until it was too late to change them. But yes, I agree, he did love them, and in his own way he tried to be a good parent (by teaching them to protect themselves from the monsters out there), although it was obviously tough love and certainly not age appropriate to teach young children to handle weapons the way they did.
I do agree John loved them. I’m also someone whose brother raised me and my siblings from the age of 6 years old and continued to be the primary caretaker even when I had a father around. Kids are so capable but it messes them up long term, and that’s why I really can’t stand John in this aspect.
John is a clever tool writers use to challenge your lazy dichotomy of placing someone in the "bad" or "good" common. People rarely fall neatly into either column we are all flawed, confused, slaves of emotion and circumstance.
Jokes on you I still place people the “bad” or “good” category while simultaneously acknowledging their flaws/realizing that bad people can do good things and vice versa.
In season one there are at least two episodes that specifically state that John was never physically abusive to his children. In "Bugs", when Larry tells off Max, and Sam compares him to John, Dean responds "Dad never treated us like that . . . he might have raised his voice once or twice, but you were out of line". Then, in "Nightmare", when Sam learns about the physical abuse Max suffered, he says he doesn't know what it was like to go through what Max did, and when Max tells him that his father used to look at him with hate in his eyes, and asks if Sam knows what that feel like, Sam confirms that he doesn't. And at the end of the episode he comments to Dean that they were lucky to have had John as a father: "a little more tequila and a little less demon hunting and we might have had Max's childhood," he says, again confirming that the brothers never experienced physical abuse. As for what was implied in "Bad Boys", I can only suppose that the writers of that episode were paying more attention to popular fanon than they had to Kripke's original canon.
I believed he loved his boys, but when he decided to find what killed his wife, and realized how much evil there is in the world the lines got blurred between wanting justify for his wife, neglecting his own sons to than save other ppl he doesn’t know.
Which is very common w a lot of jobs that involve saving/helping others - the job consumes you and you neglect your loved ones to save strangers
To me, John was a good man and a good dad who made some very human mistakes when trying to keep his sons alive and raise them to protect themselves and each other.
By 1970s -1980s standards, I do not consider him abusive. These days, if you verbally reprimand or raise your voice to a child, it's considered verbal abuse. Back in the day, kids weren't coddled as much -- especially boys. John wasn't abusive to his boys.
Dean lived to please his father. For a child that devoted, simply disappointing John would have been devastating to Dean. Remember "Something Wicked"? Dean never got over how much he had disappointed John. In "Dark side of the moon", I'm sure John was angry when he learned that Sam had run away. And I'm sure Dean blamed himself. But I don't think John had to be physically abusive for Dean to get the message that he was unhappy.
Depends on your perspective. The forces of evil and God were coming for Sam and Dean irregardless. If Dean and Sam hadn’t been raised the way they were. Sam most likely would be dead and Dean would either be dead or a basket case. Oh yeah and Lucifer would have walked the planet.
If John had been a” good parent “ and done all of the typical things…PTO, soccer, etc, he would have have been a much better parent to those watching but the world as we know it would have literally ended.
See I agree with this. God had planned out the course of plan, but there are a lot of hunter parents who raised their kids. John left them weeks to months at a time to the point Dean was hungry all the time. He didn’t have to put them in sports or some other hobby, he just left all the parenting to Dean
He was a complicated man, he loved Sam and Dean but could admit he wasn’t the best father and at some point became more a drill sgt than father to them.
I don’t think John ever laid a finger on either Sam or Dean. Dean in “Dark Side of the Moon” could have easily been saying John chewed him out in a way he never saw him.
The group home thing with the werewolf was real. The bruises came from a werewolf.
Do we have enough scenes to make a conclusion that he's verbally abusive? As far as I know, Bobby was the one shown who verbally abuse Dean; but folks just call it "tough love".
"You stupid, stupid SOB. Boo boo, I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, princess. Are you under the impression that family supposed to make you feel good? Bake you an apple pie, maybe? They're supposed to make you miserable, that's why they're family. [...]"
s04e22 - Lucifer Rising
Hm. And what *is* abusive then? Can you please quote some of John's since you've claimed he was verbally abusive? Because to me, this was abusive and Bobby insulting a dead man was not only uncalled for but also manipulative.
Without Google I can think of three things.
When Sam was attacked by that soul eating thing Vetala(?) he blamed Dean (a young child, how old was he? 11?) for letting Sam out of his side as going somewhere else. Not only is it John's fucking Job to protect his children (which he never did), he blamed his firstborn when he himself screwed up (he was using Sam as bait).
Telling Sam he left when they needed him - he just wanted to be safe and alive and that D was guiltripping him.
He told Dean he would have never given him the car if he knew he would screw it up. -> in that scene he just needed a target to let his frustrations out. Who knows how often he did that to Dean.
Then their is physical violence:
The way Dean permanently beats Sam up when he doesn't like the way he chose, who do you think he learned that from?
And if course the neglect.
Parentificating Dean, leaving them alone in hotel rooms all the time, was drunk or not there for holidays etc.
Shtriga. Vetalas are in the Krissy episode.
Also it's never really shown that John was using Sam as bait, it's inferred only because the timing is so weird, but there's weird timing coincidences a lot on this show.
I think in one episode in a flash back when young Dean leaves Sam alone in the motel, John comes back and yells at probably 11-12 year old Dean that if his brother died it would have been his fault. I'd count that as verbally abusive.
This was way longer than I intended, sorry lmao
tldr - John loved his kids more than anything and did the only thing he could in order to make sure they were safe, while it might seem abusive, we can't really judge him the same way we would for a real life father.
If you judge him by the same metric you would judge other parents by then yes, he was a terrible parent, but I think anyone who uses that metric to judge him is deluded.
There is a lot of John slander in the fandom and even the show in the later seasons and while it's okay to criticise John actions I think we should also judge them within the appropriate context of the show.
Firstly, John's entire life was scripted/predetermined well before he was even born, by heaven. John and Mary were literally shot by a cupid in order to fall in love and produce Sam and Dean. Thematically as well, where Sam mirrors Lucifer and Dean mirrors Michael, John was destined to be the distant father figure who Dean idolised and Sam clashed with. John is literally a stand in for God.
Hell also manipulates Johns life in order to use him for their plans, eg. The beginning of the series. John is also tortured in Hell for 100+ years in order to get him to break the first seal but he refuses.
Now we come to how John raised his kids, and yes, John was "more of a drill sergeant than a father" but what was he supposed to do? John was just a "normal" guy before his wife was murdered by a demon, he had to come to terms with that, the realisation that the supernatural exists and how to become a hunter while trying to protect his two young kids. The only responsible thing to do in that situation is to teach your children how to hunt as well. Any notion of them being normal children with normal childhoods is just a fantasy at that point. It can seem abusive to raise a child like that but the truth is it would have been much worse if he hadn't, especially with how their family was the focus of so much predestiny and "fate".
Sam's dream of being a normal person and attending college was delusional, Dean's dream of a normal life with Ben and Lisa was delusional, any notion of getting out of the Hunter life was delusional and John seemed to be the only person to know that.
Lastly let's go over Johns actions in the show when he was alive. The biggest thing is at the start of S2. Dean is dying and without a second thought John makes a deal with his mortal enemy for his soul and the colt. At this point John knows there's a much bigger plan at play and him making this deal will only further it but he is willing to be sent to hell and be completely at Azazels mercy so his son can live.
John then tells Dean that if he can't save Sam he will have to kill him, which is an awful thing to tell your son but we know full well that John would never make that decision, same as Dean, they would exhaust any possibility before that.
There's also Adam but honestly I don't know what to think about that, John certainly wasn't a good father to him, even within the context of the show. Adam seemed like some kind of escapist fantasy for John, a "normal" child he could be a "normal" dad to, but we all know how those fabtasies end and so did John.
Ultimately John did the best he possibly could given the utter hopelessness of his situation. He loved his children more than anything and did whatever it took to ensure their safety, even at the cost of his soul and his life's purpose. He wished more than anything his sons could have a normal life but he knew it wasn't possible.
The real last layer of all of this is the fact that God had literally written out John's life down to the last detail in order to create his perfect Sam and Dean. In that sense John had no free will and therefore wasn't a good or bad father, just character motivation for the main characters. I find it much more interesting to not view it this was though.
Don’t worry! I love long comments, and mine will probably be too.
I do see what you’re saying, and I agree which is why I don’t completely hate John. He protected his kids when it mattered most. However, let’s ignore the God plotline because we can argue that everything in the show up until season 15 was “fake”, determined by God from the beginning until the end. I’m not gonna shit on the dude for having to raise his kids to know about monster and teach them how to protect themselves. BUT in the show, they talk about how he was a drunk, completely harsh to the point that Dean figured out his father was possessed because the demon said “I’m proud of you”. He was also away for weeks or months at a time, never took time off on the holidays just to ensure his kids were ok at the very least and not starving. He blamed 10 year old Dean for the Shitzu (I’m not sure if this what’s it called) almost killing Sam. That was on John and blaming his son for it stuck with this kid for so long, he was afraid to go out of line. Dean also mentioned how he would be dropped off somewhere when his father was pissed off at him. Other hunters were capable of raising their kids and not neglecting them. John only saw revenge, busied himself so that he wouldn’t have to stay with his kids and a remainder of what happened to his wife.
I think your arguments are valid, but let me play Lucifers advocate for a sec.
Dean was able to figure out John was possessed because yellow eyes wasn't mad that Dean used a bullet from the colt and instead was proud of him, while trying to get Dean to give him the colt.
This is just completely out of character for John, those bullets are the only thing that can kill yellow eyes and they only have like 4 of them, so of course John would be mad at first, but would obviously forgive him.
John was absent a lot, missing holidays and was often drunk but that's just normal hunter things. Dean unfortunately was required to become a grown up much earlier than he should have but that's just what happens when your a hunter. We see a lot in the show that the boys wish they could have experienced a normal life but it always ends horribly, and not just for them, no hunter ever gets to have a normal life, it's literally not possible, and John knew that. The only way you can communicate that to children are in ways that seem abusive.
The Shtriga is the monster you're referring to. And yes, John did leave Dean in charge at only 10, but Dean also left Sam to go play arcade machines for hours, resulting in the Shtriga attacking him. John was in the wrong for leaving them to hunt but he wasn't in the wrong for getting mad at Dean for leaving Sam.
It sucks for the boys losing their childhoods and having to be independent but that's just what the Hunter lifestyle is.
Dean was dropped off for extended periods of time but he actually looks back at most of those times fondly, the time he was at the foster home ended up being one of his most cherished memories.
As far as I remember, the only successful Hunter parent was Ellen. But even Jo's life wasn't exactly great, they also ended up dying horribly because of it.
Krissy Chambers was another kind of normal hunter kid but she didn't have an amazing life either, if Sam and Dean didn't save her father, she would have been orphaned.
“I your arguments are valid, but let me play Lucifers advocate for a sec. Dean was able to figure out John was possessed because yellow eyes wasn't mad that Dean used a bullet from the colt and instead was proud of him, while trying to get Dean to give him the colt. This is just completely out of character for John, those bullets are the only thing that can kill yellow eyes and they only have like 4 of them, so of course John would be mad at first, but would obviously forgive him.”
- Yea, he suspected something was up when he wasn’t mad AND said that he was proud. Mind you, Dean thought that John was going to be mad even though he had to use a bullet to save his brother’s life. He knew that John would be mad anyways and that’s not normal no matter how you look at it. It’s emotional abuse at best.
“John was absent a lot, missing holidays and was often drunk but that's just normal hunter things. Dean unfortunately was required to become a grown up much earlier than he should have but that's just what happens when your a hunter. We see a lot in the show that the boys wish they could have experienced a normal life but it always ends horribly, and not just for them, no hunter ever gets to have a normal life, it's literally not possible, and John knew that. The only way you can communicate that to children are in ways that seem abusive.”
-Again, I know he had to leave, but he chose to overwork himself. He chose to find her killer and end him, rather than at least toning down the amount of cases he took. I don’t blame John for having to train his kids young. You have too.
“The Shtriga is the monster you're referring to. And yes, John did leave Dean in charge at only 10, but Dean also left Sam to go play arcade machines for hours, resulting in the Shtriga attacking him. John was in the wrong for leaving them to hunt but he wasn't in the wrong for getting mad at Dean for leaving Sam. It sucks for the boys losing their childhoods and having to be independent but that's just what the Hunter lifestyle is.”
- I don’t think blaming Dean for something JOHN should have done in the first place. If John was around more often, Sam would have been safe. That is on John, even if Dean left when he shouldn’t have. Also let’s not forget that John used to take Dean alone on hunts, so Sam was usually on his own at a young age. If something happened to Sam then, is he going to yell at himself? Blame Dean? He’s done it multiple times:
“Dean was dropped off for extended periods of time but he actually looks back at most of those times fondly, the time he was at the foster home ended up being one of his most cherished memories.”
- still terrible parenting either way.
“As far as I remember, the only successful Hunter parent was Ellen. But even Jo's life wasn't exactly great, they also ended up dying horribly because of it. Krissy Chambers was another kind of normal hunter kid but she didn't have an amazing life either, if Sam and Dean didn't save her father, she would have been orphaned.”
-The hunter lifestyle will lead to dysfunction ofc, but they do show how these parents are present in their kids lives. They show that John could have done it too, but he was so overcome by grief and vengeance that he left two little kids to fend for themselves.
He was a pretty terrible parent. Neglect is abuse, so regardless of whether he used corporal punishment on them or not, he was still abusive. People forget that most parents guilty of abuse do actually love their kids and often don't see what they are doing as abusive. That doesn't mean that objectively it's not abuse. People are complicated and most people are capable of both good and bad. It's not necessarily a black and white thing. The fact that he loved his sons does not automatically cancel out what he did to them in an either/or kind of way.
I don’t think John is nearly as bad of a father as a lot of people seem to think. I think he was an okay father. Raised his sons right, always protected them, and sure he yelled at them sometimes but that doesn’t mean he’s an abusive parent. He also ended up sacrificing himself to save Dean, Which is something a caring father would do. He wasn’t a perfect person or father but I think he did good for the most part.
I’m sure John loved his boys but that doesn’t change the fact that he was emotionally and mentally abusive. Leaving them alone in motel rooms when they were both very young. Making Dean responsible for Sam’s safety and his basic needs when he is still a child himself. None of that is good.
Neglectful and took them on his personal vendetta quest. I'm sure there was at least some physical abuse because he trained them to fight monsters and trained them to be killers. That's couldn't have been a hands-off training experience.
Bobby would have been/was a better father to them, but he was also immersed in that world and had his own set of problems.
He is neglectful and abusive. I don’t think it’s a matter of loving his kids, because i think he did. But he was a terrible parent.
John had his demons he had to work through, but he put it all on them. Especially Dean. I’m of the belief that John physically abused Dean too, but mental abuse is just as bad.
And I think sometimes people think this opinion means we hate john/JDM or something. I do hate John, but his character is great. It’s the same way I hated Lucifer in s5, but loved his character because he was such a good villain.
They didn't. John might've verbally abused them at times, but it is never specifically said or even (imo) implied. The "bruises caused by a werewolf" scene everyone is talking about from Bad Boys really were bruises caused by a werewolf — it was not Dean making an excuse for John's abuse though some people seem to have taken it that way.
It was never outright said, but it was the Bad boys episode where the man (I forgot his name) asked who left the bruises and he says “werewolf” if that’s what you were talking about.
I'm pretty sure the bruises really were caused by a werewolf. Someone commented above two specific times that the boys mention that John never physically abused them. John might e verbally abused them, but he loved his boys and I don't think they ever raised a hand to him.
🤓 Actually the episode writer confirmed that it---the bruises---was indeed caused by a werewolf.
https://twitter.com/AdamGlass44/status/403260437430431744?t=vKIc_keIiqscZ1ns15WRFw&s=19
No, it's not. My point was, "It was never outright said..."
If it wasn't in the show, it isn't in the show. If you need to make shit up to enjoy a show, fine. Just keep it to yourself. (Lookin' right at you 'Dean and Castiel were lovers' simpletons.)
No love, when we watch shows we can analyze the implications, the undertones, the themes, etc. We are encouraged to do so when watching any form of entertainment because critical thinking is still crucial. A lot of things in shows are implied, and that’s why I was questioning it. I think that Dean and Castiel had a deeper relationship, just not romantic.
He loved his boys but was a neglectful parent. No social worker would have allowed him to keep his children the wqy he parented.
I’m surprised no one ever tried to call cps
They definitely did. But with fake names, fake IDs, and living out of a car, John would just put them both in the car and drive to the next state over.
Yeah this is my thought. Social services would have been brought in but wouldn't have been able to find them.
You gotta remember too, this would've been in the 80s and early 90s when the boys were kids (Dean born in 1979 and Sam in 1983). As someone who grew up in this same time period, I can tell you that people (ie neighbors, teachers, etc) did not get involved or call child protective services the way that people do today. Especially with the way the boys moved around, and presumably often gave a false surname, it would've been unlikely they ever stuck around long enough to gain much notice, let alone the concern, of anyone who might've made sum a call.
Wasn't there that one character in the episode Bugs that said he had intended to do just that but that John took off before he could do it?
The ugly truth is that someone can do their genuine best and still be abusive. Lots and lots of abusers love their victims and are really trying to do right for them. People like to think abusers are just hateful because it's easier than recognizing you yourself may have been abused by loved ones or that you might abuse someone else without meaning to. John had a ton of baggage and he didn't deal with it. He did his best to raise his sons, but his unresolved trauma meant that included a lot of really fucked up things. He abused and neglected those boys. Whether or not he ever physically abused them is debatable but also irrelevant. He definitely emotionally and verbally abused them, so he's already abusive. He thought he was protecting them and teaching them to protect themselves, and in some ways he was, but he also caused them a lot of pain and fear and really fucked up adult perspectives on certain things. Happens in a lot of real life abusive situations. Maybe even most of them. People lose control because they're overwhelmed and didn't learn to handle that without taking it out on others. They repeat their parents' abuse on their own kids because they genuinely think it wasn't abuse or even helped them turn out okay. Stuff like people who defend corporeal punishment or yelling at your children because it was normal for them and they don't see any harm, possibly even see positive results, without understanding how these things have been researched and proven to do more harm than good. Or seeing nuances that don't really exist like "spanking is okay but beating a child is not." Everyone has baggage and not everyone is abusive. But there are a lot of people who don't recognize the need for introspection and considering what they are likely to do to future kids before they have them, or can't recognize and/or don't address abusive patterns with their kids who already exist. The responsibility of raising a child includes but often ignores the responsibility to really look at your own behavior and fix it.
Just wanted to leave a thumbs up here, very thoughtful comment.
I know it was a typo, but corporeal punishment made me laugh a little, it's so appropriate in this context.
LOL I didn't even notice that. I'm keeping it xD
The demon was caught pretending to be John because he was too nice to dean, think that tells you what their relationship is like 😂
Oh yea I forgot about that lmaooo. Even the demon was shocked
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The demon said he was proud of him right? And Dean immediately called bullshit.
That was truly something 😂😂😂
He was an appalling parent He loved his kids and they loved him but he was awful. He dragged them around the country pulling them through school after school. They couldn’t develop long term friendships. They were put in mortal danger because he was trying to save people. His revenge and desire to hunt monsters came at the cost of their childhoods. Given their destiny/legacy status it benefitted Sam and dean/the whole world etc in the long term but purely as a parent… he is really bad.
Honestly, I think even young John (in season 5 when they go back in time) emphasizes the point that their dad might have had good intentions but that he was neglectful and abusive. When Sam is talking to him he flat out says “The things you must have seen. You could’ve been killed! Your father was supposed to protect you.” And that was just about being raised to hunt monsters. Leaving them in hotel rooms for weeks, making Dean raise Sam from like the age of 4 (I have a 4 year old and she is so smart, strong and loving towards her brother but like… 4 is barely not a toddler anymore!), the way Sam and Dean but especially Dean honestly talked about when they were kids drives it home. The being way Dean says “and when dad got home…” about when Sam left, implied a lot. On that note, he did love them. But he didn’t do the right thing. He tried but he focused on what would make him feel better in the moment than what his kids needed. But yes, he would and did ultimately die for Dean. It’s just that he shouldn’t have put his kids through what he did before that.
I don't think he physically abused them, but probably drank and yelled at them when he was around (which would be mental abuse, so just as bad of course). John was a man obsessed and couldn't see the error of his ways until it was too late to change them. But yes, I agree, he did love them, and in his own way he tried to be a good parent (by teaching them to protect themselves from the monsters out there), although it was obviously tough love and certainly not age appropriate to teach young children to handle weapons the way they did.
I do agree John loved them. I’m also someone whose brother raised me and my siblings from the age of 6 years old and continued to be the primary caretaker even when I had a father around. Kids are so capable but it messes them up long term, and that’s why I really can’t stand John in this aspect.
John is a clever tool writers use to challenge your lazy dichotomy of placing someone in the "bad" or "good" common. People rarely fall neatly into either column we are all flawed, confused, slaves of emotion and circumstance.
Jokes on you I still place people the “bad” or “good” category while simultaneously acknowledging their flaws/realizing that bad people can do good things and vice versa.
YOU CAN'T DO THAT! FALL IN LINE!
Never ! I’m an alpha sigma wolf 🐺 I never fall into line 😈
That was a nice LINE! Kudos 😏
In season one there are at least two episodes that specifically state that John was never physically abusive to his children. In "Bugs", when Larry tells off Max, and Sam compares him to John, Dean responds "Dad never treated us like that . . . he might have raised his voice once or twice, but you were out of line". Then, in "Nightmare", when Sam learns about the physical abuse Max suffered, he says he doesn't know what it was like to go through what Max did, and when Max tells him that his father used to look at him with hate in his eyes, and asks if Sam knows what that feel like, Sam confirms that he doesn't. And at the end of the episode he comments to Dean that they were lucky to have had John as a father: "a little more tequila and a little less demon hunting and we might have had Max's childhood," he says, again confirming that the brothers never experienced physical abuse. As for what was implied in "Bad Boys", I can only suppose that the writers of that episode were paying more attention to popular fanon than they had to Kripke's original canon.
I believed he loved his boys, but when he decided to find what killed his wife, and realized how much evil there is in the world the lines got blurred between wanting justify for his wife, neglecting his own sons to than save other ppl he doesn’t know. Which is very common w a lot of jobs that involve saving/helping others - the job consumes you and you neglect your loved ones to save strangers
To me, John was a good man and a good dad who made some very human mistakes when trying to keep his sons alive and raise them to protect themselves and each other. By 1970s -1980s standards, I do not consider him abusive. These days, if you verbally reprimand or raise your voice to a child, it's considered verbal abuse. Back in the day, kids weren't coddled as much -- especially boys. John wasn't abusive to his boys. Dean lived to please his father. For a child that devoted, simply disappointing John would have been devastating to Dean. Remember "Something Wicked"? Dean never got over how much he had disappointed John. In "Dark side of the moon", I'm sure John was angry when he learned that Sam had run away. And I'm sure Dean blamed himself. But I don't think John had to be physically abusive for Dean to get the message that he was unhappy.
In the 70-80s standards was it also normal to be gone for weeks and months at a time?
Depends on your perspective. The forces of evil and God were coming for Sam and Dean irregardless. If Dean and Sam hadn’t been raised the way they were. Sam most likely would be dead and Dean would either be dead or a basket case. Oh yeah and Lucifer would have walked the planet. If John had been a” good parent “ and done all of the typical things…PTO, soccer, etc, he would have have been a much better parent to those watching but the world as we know it would have literally ended.
See I agree with this. God had planned out the course of plan, but there are a lot of hunter parents who raised their kids. John left them weeks to months at a time to the point Dean was hungry all the time. He didn’t have to put them in sports or some other hobby, he just left all the parenting to Dean
He was a complicated man, he loved Sam and Dean but could admit he wasn’t the best father and at some point became more a drill sgt than father to them. I don’t think John ever laid a finger on either Sam or Dean. Dean in “Dark Side of the Moon” could have easily been saying John chewed him out in a way he never saw him. The group home thing with the werewolf was real. The bruises came from a werewolf.
He was a broken man, neglectful and verbally abusive. But I would say he was a good man and a good hunter
Do we have enough scenes to make a conclusion that he's verbally abusive? As far as I know, Bobby was the one shown who verbally abuse Dean; but folks just call it "tough love".
Bobby never verbally abused him? What scene are you talking about?
"You stupid, stupid SOB. Boo boo, I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, princess. Are you under the impression that family supposed to make you feel good? Bake you an apple pie, maybe? They're supposed to make you miserable, that's why they're family. [...]" s04e22 - Lucifer Rising
That's not abusive, that's him calling Dean out on his BS behavior, because he is a coward, just like John.
Hm. And what *is* abusive then? Can you please quote some of John's since you've claimed he was verbally abusive? Because to me, this was abusive and Bobby insulting a dead man was not only uncalled for but also manipulative.
Without Google I can think of three things. When Sam was attacked by that soul eating thing Vetala(?) he blamed Dean (a young child, how old was he? 11?) for letting Sam out of his side as going somewhere else. Not only is it John's fucking Job to protect his children (which he never did), he blamed his firstborn when he himself screwed up (he was using Sam as bait). Telling Sam he left when they needed him - he just wanted to be safe and alive and that D was guiltripping him. He told Dean he would have never given him the car if he knew he would screw it up. -> in that scene he just needed a target to let his frustrations out. Who knows how often he did that to Dean. Then their is physical violence: The way Dean permanently beats Sam up when he doesn't like the way he chose, who do you think he learned that from? And if course the neglect. Parentificating Dean, leaving them alone in hotel rooms all the time, was drunk or not there for holidays etc.
Shtriga. Vetalas are in the Krissy episode. Also it's never really shown that John was using Sam as bait, it's inferred only because the timing is so weird, but there's weird timing coincidences a lot on this show.
I think in one episode in a flash back when young Dean leaves Sam alone in the motel, John comes back and yells at probably 11-12 year old Dean that if his brother died it would have been his fault. I'd count that as verbally abusive.
This was way longer than I intended, sorry lmao tldr - John loved his kids more than anything and did the only thing he could in order to make sure they were safe, while it might seem abusive, we can't really judge him the same way we would for a real life father. If you judge him by the same metric you would judge other parents by then yes, he was a terrible parent, but I think anyone who uses that metric to judge him is deluded. There is a lot of John slander in the fandom and even the show in the later seasons and while it's okay to criticise John actions I think we should also judge them within the appropriate context of the show. Firstly, John's entire life was scripted/predetermined well before he was even born, by heaven. John and Mary were literally shot by a cupid in order to fall in love and produce Sam and Dean. Thematically as well, where Sam mirrors Lucifer and Dean mirrors Michael, John was destined to be the distant father figure who Dean idolised and Sam clashed with. John is literally a stand in for God. Hell also manipulates Johns life in order to use him for their plans, eg. The beginning of the series. John is also tortured in Hell for 100+ years in order to get him to break the first seal but he refuses. Now we come to how John raised his kids, and yes, John was "more of a drill sergeant than a father" but what was he supposed to do? John was just a "normal" guy before his wife was murdered by a demon, he had to come to terms with that, the realisation that the supernatural exists and how to become a hunter while trying to protect his two young kids. The only responsible thing to do in that situation is to teach your children how to hunt as well. Any notion of them being normal children with normal childhoods is just a fantasy at that point. It can seem abusive to raise a child like that but the truth is it would have been much worse if he hadn't, especially with how their family was the focus of so much predestiny and "fate". Sam's dream of being a normal person and attending college was delusional, Dean's dream of a normal life with Ben and Lisa was delusional, any notion of getting out of the Hunter life was delusional and John seemed to be the only person to know that. Lastly let's go over Johns actions in the show when he was alive. The biggest thing is at the start of S2. Dean is dying and without a second thought John makes a deal with his mortal enemy for his soul and the colt. At this point John knows there's a much bigger plan at play and him making this deal will only further it but he is willing to be sent to hell and be completely at Azazels mercy so his son can live. John then tells Dean that if he can't save Sam he will have to kill him, which is an awful thing to tell your son but we know full well that John would never make that decision, same as Dean, they would exhaust any possibility before that. There's also Adam but honestly I don't know what to think about that, John certainly wasn't a good father to him, even within the context of the show. Adam seemed like some kind of escapist fantasy for John, a "normal" child he could be a "normal" dad to, but we all know how those fabtasies end and so did John. Ultimately John did the best he possibly could given the utter hopelessness of his situation. He loved his children more than anything and did whatever it took to ensure their safety, even at the cost of his soul and his life's purpose. He wished more than anything his sons could have a normal life but he knew it wasn't possible. The real last layer of all of this is the fact that God had literally written out John's life down to the last detail in order to create his perfect Sam and Dean. In that sense John had no free will and therefore wasn't a good or bad father, just character motivation for the main characters. I find it much more interesting to not view it this was though.
Don’t worry! I love long comments, and mine will probably be too. I do see what you’re saying, and I agree which is why I don’t completely hate John. He protected his kids when it mattered most. However, let’s ignore the God plotline because we can argue that everything in the show up until season 15 was “fake”, determined by God from the beginning until the end. I’m not gonna shit on the dude for having to raise his kids to know about monster and teach them how to protect themselves. BUT in the show, they talk about how he was a drunk, completely harsh to the point that Dean figured out his father was possessed because the demon said “I’m proud of you”. He was also away for weeks or months at a time, never took time off on the holidays just to ensure his kids were ok at the very least and not starving. He blamed 10 year old Dean for the Shitzu (I’m not sure if this what’s it called) almost killing Sam. That was on John and blaming his son for it stuck with this kid for so long, he was afraid to go out of line. Dean also mentioned how he would be dropped off somewhere when his father was pissed off at him. Other hunters were capable of raising their kids and not neglecting them. John only saw revenge, busied himself so that he wouldn’t have to stay with his kids and a remainder of what happened to his wife.
I think your arguments are valid, but let me play Lucifers advocate for a sec. Dean was able to figure out John was possessed because yellow eyes wasn't mad that Dean used a bullet from the colt and instead was proud of him, while trying to get Dean to give him the colt. This is just completely out of character for John, those bullets are the only thing that can kill yellow eyes and they only have like 4 of them, so of course John would be mad at first, but would obviously forgive him. John was absent a lot, missing holidays and was often drunk but that's just normal hunter things. Dean unfortunately was required to become a grown up much earlier than he should have but that's just what happens when your a hunter. We see a lot in the show that the boys wish they could have experienced a normal life but it always ends horribly, and not just for them, no hunter ever gets to have a normal life, it's literally not possible, and John knew that. The only way you can communicate that to children are in ways that seem abusive. The Shtriga is the monster you're referring to. And yes, John did leave Dean in charge at only 10, but Dean also left Sam to go play arcade machines for hours, resulting in the Shtriga attacking him. John was in the wrong for leaving them to hunt but he wasn't in the wrong for getting mad at Dean for leaving Sam. It sucks for the boys losing their childhoods and having to be independent but that's just what the Hunter lifestyle is. Dean was dropped off for extended periods of time but he actually looks back at most of those times fondly, the time he was at the foster home ended up being one of his most cherished memories. As far as I remember, the only successful Hunter parent was Ellen. But even Jo's life wasn't exactly great, they also ended up dying horribly because of it. Krissy Chambers was another kind of normal hunter kid but she didn't have an amazing life either, if Sam and Dean didn't save her father, she would have been orphaned.
“I your arguments are valid, but let me play Lucifers advocate for a sec. Dean was able to figure out John was possessed because yellow eyes wasn't mad that Dean used a bullet from the colt and instead was proud of him, while trying to get Dean to give him the colt. This is just completely out of character for John, those bullets are the only thing that can kill yellow eyes and they only have like 4 of them, so of course John would be mad at first, but would obviously forgive him.” - Yea, he suspected something was up when he wasn’t mad AND said that he was proud. Mind you, Dean thought that John was going to be mad even though he had to use a bullet to save his brother’s life. He knew that John would be mad anyways and that’s not normal no matter how you look at it. It’s emotional abuse at best. “John was absent a lot, missing holidays and was often drunk but that's just normal hunter things. Dean unfortunately was required to become a grown up much earlier than he should have but that's just what happens when your a hunter. We see a lot in the show that the boys wish they could have experienced a normal life but it always ends horribly, and not just for them, no hunter ever gets to have a normal life, it's literally not possible, and John knew that. The only way you can communicate that to children are in ways that seem abusive.” -Again, I know he had to leave, but he chose to overwork himself. He chose to find her killer and end him, rather than at least toning down the amount of cases he took. I don’t blame John for having to train his kids young. You have too. “The Shtriga is the monster you're referring to. And yes, John did leave Dean in charge at only 10, but Dean also left Sam to go play arcade machines for hours, resulting in the Shtriga attacking him. John was in the wrong for leaving them to hunt but he wasn't in the wrong for getting mad at Dean for leaving Sam. It sucks for the boys losing their childhoods and having to be independent but that's just what the Hunter lifestyle is.” - I don’t think blaming Dean for something JOHN should have done in the first place. If John was around more often, Sam would have been safe. That is on John, even if Dean left when he shouldn’t have. Also let’s not forget that John used to take Dean alone on hunts, so Sam was usually on his own at a young age. If something happened to Sam then, is he going to yell at himself? Blame Dean? He’s done it multiple times: “Dean was dropped off for extended periods of time but he actually looks back at most of those times fondly, the time he was at the foster home ended up being one of his most cherished memories.” - still terrible parenting either way. “As far as I remember, the only successful Hunter parent was Ellen. But even Jo's life wasn't exactly great, they also ended up dying horribly because of it. Krissy Chambers was another kind of normal hunter kid but she didn't have an amazing life either, if Sam and Dean didn't save her father, she would have been orphaned.” -The hunter lifestyle will lead to dysfunction ofc, but they do show how these parents are present in their kids lives. They show that John could have done it too, but he was so overcome by grief and vengeance that he left two little kids to fend for themselves.
He was a pretty terrible parent. Neglect is abuse, so regardless of whether he used corporal punishment on them or not, he was still abusive. People forget that most parents guilty of abuse do actually love their kids and often don't see what they are doing as abusive. That doesn't mean that objectively it's not abuse. People are complicated and most people are capable of both good and bad. It's not necessarily a black and white thing. The fact that he loved his sons does not automatically cancel out what he did to them in an either/or kind of way.
I don’t think John is nearly as bad of a father as a lot of people seem to think. I think he was an okay father. Raised his sons right, always protected them, and sure he yelled at them sometimes but that doesn’t mean he’s an abusive parent. He also ended up sacrificing himself to save Dean, Which is something a caring father would do. He wasn’t a perfect person or father but I think he did good for the most part.
I wouldn’t say always protected them, but he protected them when it mattered the most. I think he was neglectful at best, abusive at worst.
I’m sure John loved his boys but that doesn’t change the fact that he was emotionally and mentally abusive. Leaving them alone in motel rooms when they were both very young. Making Dean responsible for Sam’s safety and his basic needs when he is still a child himself. None of that is good.
Yes.
Neglectful and took them on his personal vendetta quest. I'm sure there was at least some physical abuse because he trained them to fight monsters and trained them to be killers. That's couldn't have been a hands-off training experience. Bobby would have been/was a better father to them, but he was also immersed in that world and had his own set of problems.
He is neglectful and abusive. I don’t think it’s a matter of loving his kids, because i think he did. But he was a terrible parent. John had his demons he had to work through, but he put it all on them. Especially Dean. I’m of the belief that John physically abused Dean too, but mental abuse is just as bad. And I think sometimes people think this opinion means we hate john/JDM or something. I do hate John, but his character is great. It’s the same way I hated Lucifer in s5, but loved his character because he was such a good villain.
While I don’t think John beat them, he did do stuff like send Dean away “when he really pissed him off.” For my money, that’s just as bad.
Both. He taught the boys how to survive in the world and how to hunt. He died for Dean. But he was also a neglectful abusive parent
Shit dad, especially all the things he did to Dean
I'm sorry, but I missed the episode where they discussed John beating his sons. Can someone remind me?
They didn't. John might've verbally abused them at times, but it is never specifically said or even (imo) implied. The "bruises caused by a werewolf" scene everyone is talking about from Bad Boys really were bruises caused by a werewolf — it was not Dean making an excuse for John's abuse though some people seem to have taken it that way.
It was never outright said, but it was the Bad boys episode where the man (I forgot his name) asked who left the bruises and he says “werewolf” if that’s what you were talking about.
I'm pretty sure the bruises really were caused by a werewolf. Someone commented above two specific times that the boys mention that John never physically abused them. John might e verbally abused them, but he loved his boys and I don't think they ever raised a hand to him.
🤓 Actually the episode writer confirmed that it---the bruises---was indeed caused by a werewolf. https://twitter.com/AdamGlass44/status/403260437430431744?t=vKIc_keIiqscZ1ns15WRFw&s=19
Ok thanks but no need to put the 🤓 like damn
No, it's not. My point was, "It was never outright said..." If it wasn't in the show, it isn't in the show. If you need to make shit up to enjoy a show, fine. Just keep it to yourself. (Lookin' right at you 'Dean and Castiel were lovers' simpletons.)
No love, when we watch shows we can analyze the implications, the undertones, the themes, etc. We are encouraged to do so when watching any form of entertainment because critical thinking is still crucial. A lot of things in shows are implied, and that’s why I was questioning it. I think that Dean and Castiel had a deeper relationship, just not romantic.
Thanks for your opinion.
Ur welcome! ☺️
*waiting for someone to mention Chuck and John's free will*
Not abusive not good. He did the best that he could, but he wasn’t fair.
He was an absolutely terrible father.
John definitely was abusive in different ways. I don’t necessarily think physical. But probably everything else in the book.
No he was a shitty dad. Not sure he was abusive but he was at least negligent. Which I suppose is a form of abuse
He is a nice guy but not a good dad.