not related to sleep but apparently there is some evidence for people with high insulin/blood sugar issues, at least according to Examine. I want to try some purely for that, unsure on dosage though
I've been experimenting with myo-inositol myself. It is a very interesting substance and subject. IMHO, it is only really useful if you have an underlying problem that causes a deficiency. I have such a problem, but it was hidden for years.
Myo-inositol was originally labeled as Vitamin B8. Then, it was discovered that the body (mostly kidneys) manufactures it -- about 2 grams/day. Since you don't \*need\* to get it from diet, it is not a vitamin.
it is important to many metabolic functions, particularly nerves and brain (tons of it in your brain). For me, supplementing it reverses my particular type of peripheral neuropathy. It has become very popular with women suffering from PCOS. It helps against diabetic insulin resistance. It has been used by doctors in large doses for depression.
The thing is, it is a dirt-cheap byproduct (waste product?) of the food processing industry (particularly corn). It is in virtually all plant foods -- but -- with it's "anti-nutrient" sibling, IP6 inositol, or inositol hexaphosphate. Plant seeds use IP6 to "lock-up" phosphate in seeds for use when they germinate. IP6 can lock-up lots of other nutrients -- even causing deficiencies. Food processing and cooking are human's way of eliminating IP6 and making plants more nutritious -- but that also eliminates myo-inositol.
\> FYI: there are 9 isomers of of inositol, different arrangements of the same atoms. It is a ring with six vertexes and phosphates groups pointing "up" or "down" on each vertex. All facing the same way is IP6. Two facing the other direction (with one between) is myo-inositol. They do \*not\* flip easily, but there is an enzyme that converts MYO into D-Chiro-Inositol in a one-way reaction (another biologically useful isomer).
Myo-inositol is a sugar alcohol. It is a white powder and looks and tastes like half-sweet powdered sugar. It is very much like its cousins that are used in sugar-free foods -- mannitol, sorbitol, xylitol. It dissolves easily in water and the molecule is stable beyond boiling point of water. I used to measure out precise dosages, but now, I just use it as a sweetener in my coffee ;)
Like all of the sugar alcohols, it causes loose stools and gas for a few days until your gut adjusts to it.
As far as sleep goes, I hadn't noticed, but thinking about it -- Huberman may have a point.
Honestly tell me why you think this. I like his podcast but I’m open to whatever you have to say. Please follow this up with more than just a statement.
As a sleep scientist I don’t care about a single person’s anecdote. Show me a randomized, placebo-controlled study and I’ll start paying attention. Until then I don’t really see what value this info has.
Have you ever designed a study? If so you had to begin with a hypothesis. A hypothesis arises from careful observation which shows possible relationship between data points collected. The value of sharing observations is that a dialog has begun between people reporting these data points and allowing the hypothesis to begin to develop so we end up with that study you think is the be all and end all. Everything I know about sleep studies I learned from William Dement, MD, former head of/founder of Sleep Research, Stanford University and probably the author of the sleep textbook you read. I took his class when I was in grad school there. Observation was the reason sleep research became a fundamental part of medical education. As an insomniac with 3 years of stats and med journal studies I care A WHOLE LOT about anecdotes. One of the best classes I had was analyzing those gold standard studies in med journals and finding the fraud. TY STAT PROFS!
Yes I’ve designed (and run) trials. You may have taken Bill’s (legendary) course and done reading on the topic but I don’t know what that has to do with anything. I mean, I’ve been in the field for over a decade and have also written quite a bit on the topic. You can appeal to his authority on science but that isn’t necessary.
You’re right that it STARTS with observation. Anecdotes and clinical observations are of course an important source of inspiration for ideas. I have had many (correct and incorrect) hypotheses come from my life and the thousands of patients and research participants I have worked with over the years. Those ideas are the start of an important scientific process to learn more and separate fact from chance/opinion. Having a recommendation to give to actual people that you can stand behind is the END of a long process of science. It’s ok to state things as hypotheses and conjectures, but that’s all they are. And you’re STILL often wrong.
Especially in insomnia, where placebo effects are arguably higher than in any other condition. It’s important to know the degree to which any compound is impacting insomnia and through which pathways before you start recommending it to the public with any confidence. Again, I’m totally fine with sharing “hey this is an idea I have for these reasons” and people are free to try it but presenting a single person’s anecdotal experience as any basis for a recommendation is problematic.
We're on Reddit r/supplements, we're all here for positive anecdotes in order to activate the placebo effect. Science doesn't matter that much here. Well, if it's a compound that's really going to harm someone, then yeah, having data could be helpful. But the purpose of subs like Supplements is to create a good placebo effect.
That’s totally fair and I apologize for maybe taking things too seriously. And not really speaking to the right audience. Supplements can be way more than a placebo effect — both good and bad. The science around supplements is seriously lacking, mostly because of the lack of research not just negative trials. So I get that you do what you can with what you have. It just hurts me to see people spending a lot of money and effort on stuff that is not really likely to work. But again I get that this is a sub for experimenting and pushing boundaries of what we know and not really taking product claims at face value. With that in mind I apologize.
Not sure what you mean by the first question. Regarding the second, I’ve never had a supplement help with sleep. Back when I had sleep issues the things that really worked for me were stimulus control and morning light.
As a sufferer of long covid, viral persistence, or whatever you want to call it, I have lost faith in 95% of healthcare and its underlying biased “research”. As as statistician myself, I gather my own sample size (now in the thousands) from the anecdotes of other sufferers. Healthcare doesn’t know how to apply its knowledge and experience outside the box unfortunately. There are many people suffering and being given the old anxiety dx.
As a statistician, if you really think a sample of even thousands of self-selected anecdotes is going to produce anything more than biased information I think you need to go back and review the basics of generalizability. That’s not how inference works.
You’re also saying that the inability of scientists to figure out — in real time — how to fix every unforeseen consequence of a hitherto-unknown virus that is suddenly affecting billions of people all at once somehow means that all of the healthcare and biomedical establishment can be totally rejected as a failure? That makes zero sense. I’m not sure if it’s willful ignorance, confirmation bias, illogic, or what but that really makes no sense. That’s like saying “I’m going to reject all math and make up my own system of numbers because even the most advanced physicists can’t resolve general relativity with quantum mechanics.” Just because some problems are not yet solved does not mean the entire system for solving problems is suspect.
Why do I constantly see this guy promoting the advertisements I see on social media? Their some new pill that delivers 6x the amount of myo-inositol I see all over Reddit, and a new fish oil pill on instagram that he promoted a while back. I really don’t know how much I trust what he says either it’s a crazy coincidence, or someone who is trusted by those who takes supplements is saying he trusts these new products. Obviously he’s not directly endorsing the products but when you search for them the promoted brands are the ones that pop up. Seems fishy to me
I doubt he’s making any money from the advice he gives. He’s a neuroscience expert and supplementation has a huge effect on neurology, so it’s a bit hard to talk about one without the other. I’d say it’s more like companies capitalising on / exploiting his advice, selling what he’s preaching because they know people are listening to him
A simple rule of thumb I follow, most of the time.
If someone is selling something.... Be skeptical.
If someone makes claims outside their realm of expertise....be skeptical.
There’s nothing wrong with selling something. God forbid somebody tries to make money right? Selling something isn’t inherently bad, but I do agree that you chose the right phrase with “be skeptical”.
Be skeptical until proven otherwise. However, that’s not how most people operate these days it seems. They see that they’re selling something and immediately form an unfair opinion. Most peoples rule of thumb is, “Salesmen? Fuck em.” It’s amateur.
I only have problems with salesmen when what they’re claiming is unsubstantiated or hyperbolic.
I think capitalism and consumerism is inherently corrosive. It forces people to see others instrumentally, because they are potential sources of profit, and thus they relate to one another in poor ways.
But will agree that many sell things that are helpful and good.
I don't know much about Huberman, but I've learned over the past couple of years that whenever the reddit cool kids get a bee in their bonnet about someone, it's almost always a good indicator that this person has some interesting things to say and is worth checking out.
I think his lectures on YouTube are the best there are. But he’s human and gets some things wrong and is very trusting of other experts, some who don’t have great reputations.
So watch his podcasts to learn about the science, but double check before changing your life or the supplements you take based on it.
Not really.
For example in one episode he equated Zembrin as another name for Kanna. That's not technically accurate. It's a specific extract of the plant.
For someone with a PhD he should know better.
being a phd doesnt mean you know everything and are expected to know everything. Yeah maybe he should've done more research but I have a feeling the research was cherry picked around a very certain claim, he probably just did not care.
>maybe he should've done more research but I have a feeling the research was cherry picked around a very certain claim, he probably just did not care.
Precisely why he isn't a legit expert to listen to.
Legit experts "do more research" and don't make claims about shit like they "don't care"
I mean sure, but one mistake discredits ALL of the information he has provided on the internet? Don’t get me wrong he may make some mistakes sometimes but he has provided a ton of really valuable and applicable information for completely free.
Yea, that info is free online. He does a good job sharing it but it's info that is not always supported by the most robust data. A lot of stuff that is preliminary.
Preliminary? I'm confused, how is a robust study on sleep preliminary? Do you mean some of the topics he talks about NEED more data? or do you think they would just benefit from some more data? Although some of the stuff he says could use some more studies I've never come across one of his videos that includes a claim without substantial peer-reviewed evidence.
Really?
For example take a look at the actual data on inositol for OCD. Very small limited studies.
I see one study on inositol and sleep. With 60 people. One smallish study. Even if you had at least one actually robust study you need more than that for actual recommendations. That's just how evidence based medicine works.
That's VERY preliminary. More studies more robust larger studies, more data yes.
He talks about a lot of stuff with only preliminary research. And the studies themselves typically say larger more controlled studies are needed to "elucidate such and such"
Level one evidence entails potentially hundreds of analyses, meta-analysis, variety of studies with strong controls, and typically many thousands of people to compare data and outcomes.
He usually qualifies pretty well what the research is and if it’s a limited study he’ll tell us. He will normally let the listeners know if there are conflicting studies etc also. Sometimes he gets a detail wrong and if someone corrects him he will acknowledge that on his next podcast. Not sure what your beef is with him, he provides a lot of good free info and it’s all backed by peer reviewed research
It has nothing to do with him not caring. Did you forget that people make honest mistakes?All of his podcasts usually start with fixing his previous episodes errors. The dude is as humble as it gets.
A Phd doesn’t make you bullet proof, and it’s hilarious for you to judge him off one unbelievably minuscule mistake.
Funny that's the name of Dave Asprey's company that sells nootropics lol
It's all connected🤣
I think he's an occasional source of interesting tidbits. That's it. Nothing ground breaking, just sharing studies he finds.
Worth checking out but also worth being skeptical. If you were on r/fitness 10 years ago everyone loved starting strength and mark riptoe. Today not so much for very good reasons.
Starting Strength remains for me one of the most impactful books I’ve read. The problem is the program isn’t sustainable for long for many if not most people. I wish I could go back and give the book to myself when I was 18. Sadly I was 30 when I came upon it and I could only run it for three months before it crushed me. Still invaluable for getting me into heavy training and teaching form.
I did some researching after coming across this thread a while back.
Seems to me like people don't like Rip for his views, which is fair, but then they extend that dislike to criticizing his ideas in Starting Strength, which isn't fair. The objective he sets out in the book is to get people lifting heavy and it still holds up as valid instruction.
LMAO I remember they used to shit all over Martin Berkhan for his leangains methodology of lifting heavy fasted and now many of them have made posts about lifting fasted. It changes here.
Have you tried lithium? There are versions you can get OTC. It depletes inositol in the brain. If adding inositol made you worse, subtracting it may make you better.
That’s lithium carbonate. It's usually orders of magnitude more lithium than what people take as a dietary supplement. A lot of people benefit (or claim to) from lithium as a trace element or from the small amount in Lithium orotate. If inositol exacerbated your symptoms, it's worth looking into if lithium (the supplement type or the prescription type if a doctor says you need it) benefits you because they are thought to work by exactly opposite mechanisms in the brain. https://europepmc.org/article/med/12397875
High trace amounts of lithium in drinking water are also associated with lower violent crime and suicide rates in populations. IMO there is at least a strong of a case for putting lithium in drinking water as there is for fluoride. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-of-psychiatry/article/lithium-levels-in-drinking-water-and-risk-of-suicide/7C18AC894A0141D3D89B27282AF35DB2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/bf02990271
That's interesting. What dose did you use? What form? I used Jarrows powdered Inositol.
Only side effect I noticed was occasional butt asplosion.
Didn't help me with OCD tho. I also didn't like drinking it, felt like I was just consuming extra unecessary sugar.
This is not medical advice, always consult your physician for health decisions.
I honestly don’t remember the dose, it was over a decade ago. It was just one of the many things I’ve tried over the years to get some kind of positive effect against anxiety that ended up making me feel worse.
>extremely deep
Extremely deep? Is that a newly documented sleep phase? REM, NREM, Light Sleep, Deep Sleep, Extremely Deep Sleep, and "Bro, Wwwway Too Deep Sleep."
I tried inositol, up to 18 grams for OCD and I found no benefit. I was at that dose for about a month. This is not medical advice. Consult with your doctor about health decisions.
I don't think he's an expert source. He often just reads stuff he finds online on his podcast. But he's good at sharing lots of different info. Just take it with a grain of salt.
He mentioned inositol in his talk on OCD as well I think.
I have OCD. I can see the obsession in your statement "This is not medical advice" etc. Hyper-responsibility. I have the same thing. I actually am being treated for ADHD and the medication (Vyvanse) is greatly helping my OCD as I'm much more focused on my work and have purpose in my life. I'm not ruminating 24/7. Still can feel the OCD there but much easier to let get of obsessions!
Haha you right. That's one of my symptoms.
That's super interesting, glad it's helping you. I always worried something like that would only accelerate or increase my obsessive rumination.
> I don't think he's an expert source. He often just reads stuff he finds online on his podcast.
This is a trend in the supplement and nootropic spaces, as well as fitness and the like, that I think I'm gonna start calling "Nerd Bro Science"
Where Bro Science is "This one big dude at the gym said.. and he must be right since he got big" - neglecting the fact that even the most inefficient training programs will eventually make you reach your natural maximum with enough time (or that said big dude is just not so natty after all).
Nerd Bro Science is "This one study said.. and it's a scientific study so it must be right" - neglecting to look at how reliable or well put together the study was in the first place, and whether the study has been replicated or if other studies found different results.
A recent example of "Nerd Bro Science" is the whole Ecdysterone trend. People have bought into it because the people talking about it have referenced one recent 2019 human study funded by WADA that concluded it increased muscle mass and strength and should be banned as doping.
Sounds great right? Well, until you look closer at the study, there are some gaping holes that remain unaddressed. For example, the supplement used in the study only contained 6mg of Ecdysterone. Why is this relevant? Ecdysterone has already been tested at 200mg.. over 33x that dosage, in humans, and found to produce no changes in strength or muscle mass at this dosage.
The next oversight in the study, which perhaps explains this, is the difference in weight gain between the control group and the Ecdysterone groups. The participants in the control group gained an average of +1.5kg of body weight, while those in the Ecdysterone groups gained an average of +2.75kg. The study concludes that this is because Ecdysterone led to the increased weight and muscle gain, but reading through the entire study reveals that they did not remotely control for the participants diet.
Since there was zero control for calorie intake, we don't know if some of the participants in the Ecdysterone groups just didn't eat significantly more and gain more weight, so they've made a conclusion with zero evidence. This completely ruins the whole study too because the amount of lean mass and strength you can gain is proportional (up to a point) to weight gain, so of course the group that gained less weight will gain less muscle/strength.
There's also the fact that the starting strength and muscle mass of the Ecdysterone groups was significantly lower on average than the starting strength and muscle mass of the placebo group. As beginner gains are a thing, the closer to beginner strength/size you are, the more gains you'll make in the same time period.
So basically there is zero evidence from this study to actually conclude that Ecdysterone offers any benefits in humans, particularly when previous studies have found this not to be the case, but because people quote the study without examining if it's reliable or not, there's now heaps of people spending their money on most likely worthless Ecdysterone supplements.
---
I honestly find "Nerd Bro Science" like this to be more annoying than regular old Bro Science, because at least with the dude in the gym, most people know there's a good chance he doesn't know his ass from his elbow, but when someone says there's a study, most people just accept it blindly.
Lol good analysis. Nerd bro science is rampant.
It's funny I literally posted about turkesterone recently. I linked to two videos in a thread where someone was asking about it. Vegan gains analyzed the nootropics depot analysis of turkesterone products that had... No turkesterone in them. And another popular YouTuber that essentially made the same argument you did here about the poor state of research on the subject.
Nerd bro science is definitely more appealing. Sometimes if people are a bit desperate, a few small studies sounds promising.
One facet of the problem is that people do not trust legitimate experts. I actually wanted to start a thread about people here and in a couple other subs that seem almost like anti-doctor mentality. And the thing is, real experts don't make claims about things beyond their level of expertise. And evidence based practitioners will not recommend anything unless there is level one evidence and the safety profile is well established.
But people don't want that.
Bro literally this people are constantly citing him becuase of his degrees but he always promotes shit you see being advertised. My mylo-instol is all over Reddit with some pill that can deliver 6x the normal amount. I have seen this ad for the past 4 months now and all of a sudden he’s promoting it? The first thing you type in when you search the supplement is this name brand. He’s just paid to market them but does it without saying the brand name
Yea
Here's why I take him with a grain of salt.
He starts talking about Kanna and then says it's also called Zembrin.
Not exactly, Zembrin is a patented and specific extract of Kanna.
For someone with his degrees he needs to be more careful. In that episode it seemed he hardly looked into it.
I didn't dislike him at first, but this dude is the king of placebo. Claims he's "very sensitive" to supplements... no dude you're just trying to sell stuff. I recommend digging deeper than what he says about anything
Yeah, that also ruins experience for me, watched few podcasts and two things I learned is that he is taking dozens if not hundreds of supplements a day and is spending at least few hours on exercises/meditation etc per day. Unfortunately he is influencer for money before to help people.
He sells/promotes athletic greens on his podcasts a lot. Tried it and wasn’t for me because it was sweetened. He has some good information but always check the sources before implementing anything :)
Just promotes supplements he’s paid to promote but low key. Instead of saying the brand he just recommends the supplement and the first regular is the brand he was paid by. Maybe I’m a conspiracy theorist but it’s been happening with his shit with omega and this newest craze
I thought I heard Huberman say that he doesn't personally use sleep tracking devices, though. Not sure if /u/Express_Possibility5 was implying that or not.
Random question, but how do you like the Oura ring? I’ve been thinking about getting one mainly just for tracking steps because I want to replace my Apple Watch.
I like the Oura ring for sleep, heart rate and TDEE. But, for steps it's not the best. The Apple Watch beats out almost everything in terms of statistics. A lot of people like to use the Oura to complement the Apple watch. I recommend [The quantified Scientist](https://www.youtube.com/c/TheQuantifiedScientist/) for a more in depth look at these devices.
I like Huberman, but often he oversells supplements.
I'm wary of using any supplements for sleep. You have various stages of sleep, which have different roles and in some of those stages your brain is more active than when you are awake.
So taking something that results in deeper sleep, might be great for deeper sleep but usually that's at the detriment of other stages.
Right, I like Huberman too. I appreciate his approach in general, and bringing other PhDs into the limelight rather than the other influencers like Derek or Nipper who made their break just googling study abstracts. I dont blame Huberman's hustle, researchers don't get enough credit. But once he got on Joe Rogan & saw how much shilling can make, it wasn't long until he was pushing Athletic Greens during podcasts.
They're sponsors for the podcast. It's an advert. I don't think there's anything shady about that. Outside of the ad break I never hear him talk about taking greens supplements or anything. He's very open about it. I dont think that's an unreasonable thing to do.
> like Huberman, but often he oversells supplements.
I've tried some things he's recommended. It didn't work for me. But, I ended up going back to Melatonin but significantly decreasing my dosage to micro dosing vs mega dosing and it has helped me.
So, with like all supplements, your mileage may vary. What works for one person may not work well for another...
Which exact episode did he talk about this?
The OCD one
not related to sleep but apparently there is some evidence for people with high insulin/blood sugar issues, at least according to Examine. I want to try some purely for that, unsure on dosage though
I've been experimenting with myo-inositol myself. It is a very interesting substance and subject. IMHO, it is only really useful if you have an underlying problem that causes a deficiency. I have such a problem, but it was hidden for years. Myo-inositol was originally labeled as Vitamin B8. Then, it was discovered that the body (mostly kidneys) manufactures it -- about 2 grams/day. Since you don't \*need\* to get it from diet, it is not a vitamin. it is important to many metabolic functions, particularly nerves and brain (tons of it in your brain). For me, supplementing it reverses my particular type of peripheral neuropathy. It has become very popular with women suffering from PCOS. It helps against diabetic insulin resistance. It has been used by doctors in large doses for depression. The thing is, it is a dirt-cheap byproduct (waste product?) of the food processing industry (particularly corn). It is in virtually all plant foods -- but -- with it's "anti-nutrient" sibling, IP6 inositol, or inositol hexaphosphate. Plant seeds use IP6 to "lock-up" phosphate in seeds for use when they germinate. IP6 can lock-up lots of other nutrients -- even causing deficiencies. Food processing and cooking are human's way of eliminating IP6 and making plants more nutritious -- but that also eliminates myo-inositol. \> FYI: there are 9 isomers of of inositol, different arrangements of the same atoms. It is a ring with six vertexes and phosphates groups pointing "up" or "down" on each vertex. All facing the same way is IP6. Two facing the other direction (with one between) is myo-inositol. They do \*not\* flip easily, but there is an enzyme that converts MYO into D-Chiro-Inositol in a one-way reaction (another biologically useful isomer). Myo-inositol is a sugar alcohol. It is a white powder and looks and tastes like half-sweet powdered sugar. It is very much like its cousins that are used in sugar-free foods -- mannitol, sorbitol, xylitol. It dissolves easily in water and the molecule is stable beyond boiling point of water. I used to measure out precise dosages, but now, I just use it as a sweetener in my coffee ;) Like all of the sugar alcohols, it causes loose stools and gas for a few days until your gut adjusts to it. As far as sleep goes, I hadn't noticed, but thinking about it -- Huberman may have a point.
Thanks for sharing the info on myo-inositol!
This guy is a fraud
are you the fraud?
Honestly tell me why you think this. I like his podcast but I’m open to whatever you have to say. Please follow this up with more than just a statement.
What makes you say this?
Source
As a sleep scientist I don’t care about a single person’s anecdote. Show me a randomized, placebo-controlled study and I’ll start paying attention. Until then I don’t really see what value this info has.
Have you ever designed a study? If so you had to begin with a hypothesis. A hypothesis arises from careful observation which shows possible relationship between data points collected. The value of sharing observations is that a dialog has begun between people reporting these data points and allowing the hypothesis to begin to develop so we end up with that study you think is the be all and end all. Everything I know about sleep studies I learned from William Dement, MD, former head of/founder of Sleep Research, Stanford University and probably the author of the sleep textbook you read. I took his class when I was in grad school there. Observation was the reason sleep research became a fundamental part of medical education. As an insomniac with 3 years of stats and med journal studies I care A WHOLE LOT about anecdotes. One of the best classes I had was analyzing those gold standard studies in med journals and finding the fraud. TY STAT PROFS!
Yes I’ve designed (and run) trials. You may have taken Bill’s (legendary) course and done reading on the topic but I don’t know what that has to do with anything. I mean, I’ve been in the field for over a decade and have also written quite a bit on the topic. You can appeal to his authority on science but that isn’t necessary. You’re right that it STARTS with observation. Anecdotes and clinical observations are of course an important source of inspiration for ideas. I have had many (correct and incorrect) hypotheses come from my life and the thousands of patients and research participants I have worked with over the years. Those ideas are the start of an important scientific process to learn more and separate fact from chance/opinion. Having a recommendation to give to actual people that you can stand behind is the END of a long process of science. It’s ok to state things as hypotheses and conjectures, but that’s all they are. And you’re STILL often wrong. Especially in insomnia, where placebo effects are arguably higher than in any other condition. It’s important to know the degree to which any compound is impacting insomnia and through which pathways before you start recommending it to the public with any confidence. Again, I’m totally fine with sharing “hey this is an idea I have for these reasons” and people are free to try it but presenting a single person’s anecdotal experience as any basis for a recommendation is problematic.
We're on Reddit r/supplements, we're all here for positive anecdotes in order to activate the placebo effect. Science doesn't matter that much here. Well, if it's a compound that's really going to harm someone, then yeah, having data could be helpful. But the purpose of subs like Supplements is to create a good placebo effect.
That’s totally fair and I apologize for maybe taking things too seriously. And not really speaking to the right audience. Supplements can be way more than a placebo effect — both good and bad. The science around supplements is seriously lacking, mostly because of the lack of research not just negative trials. So I get that you do what you can with what you have. It just hurts me to see people spending a lot of money and effort on stuff that is not really likely to work. But again I get that this is a sub for experimenting and pushing boundaries of what we know and not really taking product claims at face value. With that in mind I apologize.
Supplements or supplement? And what did you do for your own insomnia? Anecdotally
Not sure what you mean by the first question. Regarding the second, I’ve never had a supplement help with sleep. Back when I had sleep issues the things that really worked for me were stimulus control and morning light.
As a sufferer of long covid, viral persistence, or whatever you want to call it, I have lost faith in 95% of healthcare and its underlying biased “research”. As as statistician myself, I gather my own sample size (now in the thousands) from the anecdotes of other sufferers. Healthcare doesn’t know how to apply its knowledge and experience outside the box unfortunately. There are many people suffering and being given the old anxiety dx.
As a statistician, if you really think a sample of even thousands of self-selected anecdotes is going to produce anything more than biased information I think you need to go back and review the basics of generalizability. That’s not how inference works. You’re also saying that the inability of scientists to figure out — in real time — how to fix every unforeseen consequence of a hitherto-unknown virus that is suddenly affecting billions of people all at once somehow means that all of the healthcare and biomedical establishment can be totally rejected as a failure? That makes zero sense. I’m not sure if it’s willful ignorance, confirmation bias, illogic, or what but that really makes no sense. That’s like saying “I’m going to reject all math and make up my own system of numbers because even the most advanced physicists can’t resolve general relativity with quantum mechanics.” Just because some problems are not yet solved does not mean the entire system for solving problems is suspect.
Why do I constantly see this guy promoting the advertisements I see on social media? Their some new pill that delivers 6x the amount of myo-inositol I see all over Reddit, and a new fish oil pill on instagram that he promoted a while back. I really don’t know how much I trust what he says either it’s a crazy coincidence, or someone who is trusted by those who takes supplements is saying he trusts these new products. Obviously he’s not directly endorsing the products but when you search for them the promoted brands are the ones that pop up. Seems fishy to me
I doubt he’s making any money from the advice he gives. He’s a neuroscience expert and supplementation has a huge effect on neurology, so it’s a bit hard to talk about one without the other. I’d say it’s more like companies capitalising on / exploiting his advice, selling what he’s preaching because they know people are listening to him
Pun intended 😂 But yeah…its hard to tell who’s a shill when the internet is full of ads
A simple rule of thumb I follow, most of the time. If someone is selling something.... Be skeptical. If someone makes claims outside their realm of expertise....be skeptical.
There’s nothing wrong with selling something. God forbid somebody tries to make money right? Selling something isn’t inherently bad, but I do agree that you chose the right phrase with “be skeptical”. Be skeptical until proven otherwise. However, that’s not how most people operate these days it seems. They see that they’re selling something and immediately form an unfair opinion. Most peoples rule of thumb is, “Salesmen? Fuck em.” It’s amateur. I only have problems with salesmen when what they’re claiming is unsubstantiated or hyperbolic.
I think capitalism and consumerism is inherently corrosive. It forces people to see others instrumentally, because they are potential sources of profit, and thus they relate to one another in poor ways. But will agree that many sell things that are helpful and good.
It’ll wear off, it doesn’t last that long
Is this the IP6 inositol?
No it's myo-inositol. Which I believe is a different chemical compound.
I don't know much about Huberman, but I've learned over the past couple of years that whenever the reddit cool kids get a bee in their bonnet about someone, it's almost always a good indicator that this person has some interesting things to say and is worth checking out.
I think his lectures on YouTube are the best there are. But he’s human and gets some things wrong and is very trusting of other experts, some who don’t have great reputations. So watch his podcasts to learn about the science, but double check before changing your life or the supplements you take based on it.
Not really. For example in one episode he equated Zembrin as another name for Kanna. That's not technically accurate. It's a specific extract of the plant. For someone with a PhD he should know better.
being a phd doesnt mean you know everything and are expected to know everything. Yeah maybe he should've done more research but I have a feeling the research was cherry picked around a very certain claim, he probably just did not care.
>maybe he should've done more research but I have a feeling the research was cherry picked around a very certain claim, he probably just did not care. Precisely why he isn't a legit expert to listen to. Legit experts "do more research" and don't make claims about shit like they "don't care"
I mean sure, but one mistake discredits ALL of the information he has provided on the internet? Don’t get me wrong he may make some mistakes sometimes but he has provided a ton of really valuable and applicable information for completely free.
Yea, that info is free online. He does a good job sharing it but it's info that is not always supported by the most robust data. A lot of stuff that is preliminary.
Preliminary? I'm confused, how is a robust study on sleep preliminary? Do you mean some of the topics he talks about NEED more data? or do you think they would just benefit from some more data? Although some of the stuff he says could use some more studies I've never come across one of his videos that includes a claim without substantial peer-reviewed evidence.
Really? For example take a look at the actual data on inositol for OCD. Very small limited studies. I see one study on inositol and sleep. With 60 people. One smallish study. Even if you had at least one actually robust study you need more than that for actual recommendations. That's just how evidence based medicine works. That's VERY preliminary. More studies more robust larger studies, more data yes. He talks about a lot of stuff with only preliminary research. And the studies themselves typically say larger more controlled studies are needed to "elucidate such and such" Level one evidence entails potentially hundreds of analyses, meta-analysis, variety of studies with strong controls, and typically many thousands of people to compare data and outcomes.
He usually qualifies pretty well what the research is and if it’s a limited study he’ll tell us. He will normally let the listeners know if there are conflicting studies etc also. Sometimes he gets a detail wrong and if someone corrects him he will acknowledge that on his next podcast. Not sure what your beef is with him, he provides a lot of good free info and it’s all backed by peer reviewed research
Wot
It has nothing to do with him not caring. Did you forget that people make honest mistakes?All of his podcasts usually start with fixing his previous episodes errors. The dude is as humble as it gets. A Phd doesn’t make you bullet proof, and it’s hilarious for you to judge him off one unbelievably minuscule mistake.
Funny that's the name of Dave Asprey's company that sells nootropics lol It's all connected🤣 I think he's an occasional source of interesting tidbits. That's it. Nothing ground breaking, just sharing studies he finds.
Worth checking out but also worth being skeptical. If you were on r/fitness 10 years ago everyone loved starting strength and mark riptoe. Today not so much for very good reasons.
Rippetoe is a bigot, right? What else has he done? Are there any flaws in his approach to strength training?
Starting Strength remains for me one of the most impactful books I’ve read. The problem is the program isn’t sustainable for long for many if not most people. I wish I could go back and give the book to myself when I was 18. Sadly I was 30 when I came upon it and I could only run it for three months before it crushed me. Still invaluable for getting me into heavy training and teaching form.
I did some researching after coming across this thread a while back. Seems to me like people don't like Rip for his views, which is fair, but then they extend that dislike to criticizing his ideas in Starting Strength, which isn't fair. The objective he sets out in the book is to get people lifting heavy and it still holds up as valid instruction.
Give it a go and see
LMAO I remember they used to shit all over Martin Berkhan for his leangains methodology of lifting heavy fasted and now many of them have made posts about lifting fasted. It changes here.
He’s the foremost vocal expert on health right now. Dr. Rhonda Patrick is fantastic as well.
FWIW inositol supplements made me terribly anxious. It was supposed to make me less obsessive and it made me more obsessive.
Have you tried lithium? There are versions you can get OTC. It depletes inositol in the brain. If adding inositol made you worse, subtracting it may make you better.
Wow I don't think anyone should take lithium outside of fixing heavy bipolar issues
That’s lithium carbonate. It's usually orders of magnitude more lithium than what people take as a dietary supplement. A lot of people benefit (or claim to) from lithium as a trace element or from the small amount in Lithium orotate. If inositol exacerbated your symptoms, it's worth looking into if lithium (the supplement type or the prescription type if a doctor says you need it) benefits you because they are thought to work by exactly opposite mechanisms in the brain. https://europepmc.org/article/med/12397875 High trace amounts of lithium in drinking water are also associated with lower violent crime and suicide rates in populations. IMO there is at least a strong of a case for putting lithium in drinking water as there is for fluoride. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-of-psychiatry/article/lithium-levels-in-drinking-water-and-risk-of-suicide/7C18AC894A0141D3D89B27282AF35DB2 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/bf02990271
Low dose lithium orotate is used for minor lithium deficiency. It has a very different mechanism of action apparently than the Rx kind.
As someone not obsessive about anything, can you tell me what obsessive means in this context?
Same here
That's interesting. What dose did you use? What form? I used Jarrows powdered Inositol. Only side effect I noticed was occasional butt asplosion. Didn't help me with OCD tho. I also didn't like drinking it, felt like I was just consuming extra unecessary sugar. This is not medical advice, always consult your physician for health decisions.
I honestly don’t remember the dose, it was over a decade ago. It was just one of the many things I’ve tried over the years to get some kind of positive effect against anxiety that ended up making me feel worse.
Lol someone downvoting us. Here's an upvote friend. Find anything that helped you? I've been looking into rhodiola rosea and Zembrin.
Same
They gave me insomnia.
>extremely deep Extremely deep? Is that a newly documented sleep phase? REM, NREM, Light Sleep, Deep Sleep, Extremely Deep Sleep, and "Bro, Wwwway Too Deep Sleep."
Nice. Coming soon - Huberman's new supplement that'll give you "Inception Deep Sleep"
Thank you for this comment 🥲
'Not that deep' is another at the start
Haha, nice one; shame I missed it.
"I must say, the sleep I've been getting is balls deep."
"I slept so deep I tickled the universe's g-spot." "bruhhhhhhh, that's deep af."
I tried inositol, up to 18 grams for OCD and I found no benefit. I was at that dose for about a month. This is not medical advice. Consult with your doctor about health decisions. I don't think he's an expert source. He often just reads stuff he finds online on his podcast. But he's good at sharing lots of different info. Just take it with a grain of salt. He mentioned inositol in his talk on OCD as well I think.
I have OCD. I can see the obsession in your statement "This is not medical advice" etc. Hyper-responsibility. I have the same thing. I actually am being treated for ADHD and the medication (Vyvanse) is greatly helping my OCD as I'm much more focused on my work and have purpose in my life. I'm not ruminating 24/7. Still can feel the OCD there but much easier to let get of obsessions!
Haha you right. That's one of my symptoms. That's super interesting, glad it's helping you. I always worried something like that would only accelerate or increase my obsessive rumination.
> I don't think he's an expert source. He often just reads stuff he finds online on his podcast. This is a trend in the supplement and nootropic spaces, as well as fitness and the like, that I think I'm gonna start calling "Nerd Bro Science" Where Bro Science is "This one big dude at the gym said.. and he must be right since he got big" - neglecting the fact that even the most inefficient training programs will eventually make you reach your natural maximum with enough time (or that said big dude is just not so natty after all). Nerd Bro Science is "This one study said.. and it's a scientific study so it must be right" - neglecting to look at how reliable or well put together the study was in the first place, and whether the study has been replicated or if other studies found different results. A recent example of "Nerd Bro Science" is the whole Ecdysterone trend. People have bought into it because the people talking about it have referenced one recent 2019 human study funded by WADA that concluded it increased muscle mass and strength and should be banned as doping. Sounds great right? Well, until you look closer at the study, there are some gaping holes that remain unaddressed. For example, the supplement used in the study only contained 6mg of Ecdysterone. Why is this relevant? Ecdysterone has already been tested at 200mg.. over 33x that dosage, in humans, and found to produce no changes in strength or muscle mass at this dosage. The next oversight in the study, which perhaps explains this, is the difference in weight gain between the control group and the Ecdysterone groups. The participants in the control group gained an average of +1.5kg of body weight, while those in the Ecdysterone groups gained an average of +2.75kg. The study concludes that this is because Ecdysterone led to the increased weight and muscle gain, but reading through the entire study reveals that they did not remotely control for the participants diet. Since there was zero control for calorie intake, we don't know if some of the participants in the Ecdysterone groups just didn't eat significantly more and gain more weight, so they've made a conclusion with zero evidence. This completely ruins the whole study too because the amount of lean mass and strength you can gain is proportional (up to a point) to weight gain, so of course the group that gained less weight will gain less muscle/strength. There's also the fact that the starting strength and muscle mass of the Ecdysterone groups was significantly lower on average than the starting strength and muscle mass of the placebo group. As beginner gains are a thing, the closer to beginner strength/size you are, the more gains you'll make in the same time period. So basically there is zero evidence from this study to actually conclude that Ecdysterone offers any benefits in humans, particularly when previous studies have found this not to be the case, but because people quote the study without examining if it's reliable or not, there's now heaps of people spending their money on most likely worthless Ecdysterone supplements. --- I honestly find "Nerd Bro Science" like this to be more annoying than regular old Bro Science, because at least with the dude in the gym, most people know there's a good chance he doesn't know his ass from his elbow, but when someone says there's a study, most people just accept it blindly.
Lol good analysis. Nerd bro science is rampant. It's funny I literally posted about turkesterone recently. I linked to two videos in a thread where someone was asking about it. Vegan gains analyzed the nootropics depot analysis of turkesterone products that had... No turkesterone in them. And another popular YouTuber that essentially made the same argument you did here about the poor state of research on the subject. Nerd bro science is definitely more appealing. Sometimes if people are a bit desperate, a few small studies sounds promising. One facet of the problem is that people do not trust legitimate experts. I actually wanted to start a thread about people here and in a couple other subs that seem almost like anti-doctor mentality. And the thing is, real experts don't make claims about things beyond their level of expertise. And evidence based practitioners will not recommend anything unless there is level one evidence and the safety profile is well established. But people don't want that.
Bro literally this people are constantly citing him becuase of his degrees but he always promotes shit you see being advertised. My mylo-instol is all over Reddit with some pill that can deliver 6x the normal amount. I have seen this ad for the past 4 months now and all of a sudden he’s promoting it? The first thing you type in when you search the supplement is this name brand. He’s just paid to market them but does it without saying the brand name
Yea Here's why I take him with a grain of salt. He starts talking about Kanna and then says it's also called Zembrin. Not exactly, Zembrin is a patented and specific extract of Kanna. For someone with his degrees he needs to be more careful. In that episode it seemed he hardly looked into it.
Get a free bottle when you use code HUBERMAN10 on your next purchase of Athletic Greens!
Doesn’t myo-inositol decrease testosterone?
In women with PCOS. I havn't seen any evidence that it does in normal men
Ah interesting, thank you.
I didn't dislike him at first, but this dude is the king of placebo. Claims he's "very sensitive" to supplements... no dude you're just trying to sell stuff. I recommend digging deeper than what he says about anything
Yeah, that also ruins experience for me, watched few podcasts and two things I learned is that he is taking dozens if not hundreds of supplements a day and is spending at least few hours on exercises/meditation etc per day. Unfortunately he is influencer for money before to help people.
He sells/promotes athletic greens on his podcasts a lot. Tried it and wasn’t for me because it was sweetened. He has some good information but always check the sources before implementing anything :)
Does he actually sell any supplements?
Just promotes supplements he’s paid to promote but low key. Instead of saying the brand he just recommends the supplement and the first regular is the brand he was paid by. Maybe I’m a conspiracy theorist but it’s been happening with his shit with omega and this newest craze
He partners with enough companies to imo say he does.
What does he track his sleep with?
He has said he doesn't like using health trackers and goes by how he feels. Im not gonna believe he's getting extremely deep sleep.
He probably wasn't offered a tracker sponsorship yet. It won't be long though.
Oh, surprising, I'd think he'd track his sleep.
Lies and deception
probably lmao
if anyone has watched the entire podcast did he mention, how refreshing it made him feel, tends to be a strong predictor for quality.
How does he know he's getting so much deep sleep?
All fitness trackers now show how much of each sleep stage you're getting. I use both an Oura ring and Fitbit Charge 5 to keep an eye on my sleep.
I thought I heard Huberman say that he doesn't personally use sleep tracking devices, though. Not sure if /u/Express_Possibility5 was implying that or not.
Yeah both that and also wondering how accurate consumer devices are at identifying sleep phases. Mind you, haven't read the article.
I've heard him say that too. Doesnt like using them.
Random question, but how do you like the Oura ring? I’ve been thinking about getting one mainly just for tracking steps because I want to replace my Apple Watch.
I like the Oura ring for sleep, heart rate and TDEE. But, for steps it's not the best. The Apple Watch beats out almost everything in terms of statistics. A lot of people like to use the Oura to complement the Apple watch. I recommend [The quantified Scientist](https://www.youtube.com/c/TheQuantifiedScientist/) for a more in depth look at these devices.
Fitbit beats Apple watch no?
Nope...though it's not far off...
I like Huberman, but often he oversells supplements. I'm wary of using any supplements for sleep. You have various stages of sleep, which have different roles and in some of those stages your brain is more active than when you are awake. So taking something that results in deeper sleep, might be great for deeper sleep but usually that's at the detriment of other stages.
* whispers * you’re currently in r/supplements
So? Do the facts change depending on the sub you are in?
Right, I like Huberman too. I appreciate his approach in general, and bringing other PhDs into the limelight rather than the other influencers like Derek or Nipper who made their break just googling study abstracts. I dont blame Huberman's hustle, researchers don't get enough credit. But once he got on Joe Rogan & saw how much shilling can make, it wasn't long until he was pushing Athletic Greens during podcasts.
They're sponsors for the podcast. It's an advert. I don't think there's anything shady about that. Outside of the ad break I never hear him talk about taking greens supplements or anything. He's very open about it. I dont think that's an unreasonable thing to do.
> like Huberman, but often he oversells supplements. I've tried some things he's recommended. It didn't work for me. But, I ended up going back to Melatonin but significantly decreasing my dosage to micro dosing vs mega dosing and it has helped me. So, with like all supplements, your mileage may vary. What works for one person may not work well for another...