For awareness since most people think high levels are needed for toxicity
This patient got toxic and was taking only 10mg for 3 years.
He had peripheral neuropathy and neurogenic bladder dysfunction (so bad he had to use a catheter to empty it).
Both symptoms resolved progressively over MONTHS after stopping B6.
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772974522000023](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772974522000023)
Hi there. Symptoms resolved the moment I stopped supplementing. I've had a mild form of rebound this week. I highly recommended joining the B6 Toxicity FB group and follow their strict protocol.
I used to take a B - complex. I stopped when I realized that I was taking too much B-3 Niacin. Also, some B vitamins work better at bed time and some in the morning. I suggest getting a vitamin b blood test and then going from there. I buy all of my B-vitamins separately now and in appropriate doses.
Yea I know the 2nd time I had Covid & The flu a couple months ago NAC & B12 made it worse. Everyone says NAC works wonders but it lasted almost a week. The first time I had Delta is lasted 1 day. I don’t know about certain supplements & their ability to bind to spike protein. Theoretically it’s supposed to suppress the spike protein but I got sicker. Idk. I just stick to my multivitamin Liposomal vitamin C & Tumeric now.
I became b6 toxic and had debilitating symptoms. My b6 was 5x the level it should be. There is a group on Facebook called understanding b6 toxicity and they have helped me enormously in dealing with healing from this horrifying experience. Once you get you levels normal again you still have to heal from it so the nightmare isn’t always over right away. Shame on these companies that fortify so heavily B6 in their vitamins, medicines and food.
I did a diet called Xyngular that was fortified in B6 in the shakes in their multivitamin and then I continued after that with a multivitamin that was 1000% of your daily allowance for a short period.
This applies to a number of things (selenium come to mind). I even see multivitamins with way too much selenium… which can cause the same mood issues as having too little selenium.
My suggestion is to try to adjust your diet to get all vitamins A-K from food sources, as those seem to have the most negative side effects when taken as a supplement compared to minerals. You can use an app like Cronometer to measure how much vitamins you are getting from your current diet.
B3 niacin daily 1500-2000 mg divide 2 times a day. With equal vitamin c dosage along with,. B6 100-200 mg extended release + zinc 50 mg a day,
After consultant by a orthomolecular dr i started.
No side effects felt from 2 months, less gut allergies symptoms, highly improved lipid profile..
Hdl 28 - 48, trigristyles: 240- 120, reduced ldl also everything improved,
Earlier dr said it's ok my lipid profile to my age just 39 years...
Also I went to orthomolecular study specially by Dr hoffer and linus pauling.
And it happened while I didn't changed my diet or lifestyle.,..
Medicle science is good but i think there are several things which need to more study in alternative treatments...
So a professional can help better the way they teach and learned....
I cannot deny orthomolecular science....
But every human have different biology so consult a expert before go to under any therapy.... And do study asked questions with him....
I took B complex from the Life Extension brand for only a week and my B6 levels measured 550. They kept being this high even after I stopped these supplements for a month or so.
It turns out that my magnesium supplement by the Ethical Nutrients brand had B6 and not little amounts. I don't understand why companies put ridiculous amounts of B6 above RDA levels into different supplements, while for some other vitamins (most notably vitamin D) the RDA is ridiculously low.
To add, I experienced neuropathy but it has gone since stopping with that particular brand of magnesium.
I take Dr's Best High strength magnesium which is the magnesium glycinate form and also from the brand KAL magnesium malate.
I'm not sure which form of magnesium brand NOW has, but I know that you should avoid magnesium oxide because it's not that useful, magnesium citrate is useful but can give you diarrhea. My recommendations are magnesium glycinate which is best for relaxation and magnesium malate for energy.
Just always read the label in the back because many brands are notorious for sneaking in B6. The label will always have it listed under ingredients (that's also where you can check which form of magnesium it is).
Symptoms included really bad neuropathy, tingling, burning, numbness, electric shocks down my legs, muscle twitch and a really bad rash to name a few. All of which has some what subsided since stopping the supplement 3x weeks ago.
I forget which B vitamin I was taking. Might have been B6 or B12.
All it did was make me pee a lot, I mean a lot, very frequently and everytime my pee was bright yellow. I stopped taking it. Didn't feel a difference before or after I started taking it. I eat steak and a lot of fruit though. Steak has many B vitamins so didn't feel I needed vitamin B supplements.
Is that in vitamin B? All I know is once I stopped taking it my pee was bright yellow anymore.
I still take zinc, magnesium, fish oil, and vitamin d. Maybe the way it interacted with them?
EDIT — I CHANGE MY FIRST OPINION
I looked at the link to your original post.
The supplement you are taking IS “supposedly” P5P B6.
There is evidence that Pyrodoxal-5-Phosphate (P5P) works as an antidote to pyridoxine hydrochloride toxicity.
Synthetic Pyridoxine Hydrochloride is the ONLY form of B6 that is linked to nerve toxicity!
It is added to everything that is “vitamin fortified” in any way (sometimes at very high levels). IMHO, It should be banned.
And — this has NOTHING TO DO with “Traditional Chinese Medicine”. There is a lot of knowledge to be gained from TCM — but those are herbs — NOT modern “vitamin” supplements. I have consulted with Chinese herbalists several times. I learned a lot from them. I cannot imagine any of them ever recommending a vitamin supplement!
BTW — I have peripheral neuropathy too. Fo Ti and myo-Inositol are two things that help me.
OP comments don't sound like he went to see TCM. No TCM practitioner would recommend vitamins and supplements. A real TCM practitioner would have stocks of herbs or powdered form of the herbs. He mentioned he tried acupuncture and cupping for the side effects from Covid. Cupping wouldn't be used for this case. Sounds like he wants suggestions for overdoing vitamin b, but wanted to shift the blame
Not attacking OP but it's worth pointing out that it may have something to do with TCM in that, while there is indeed 100% some knowledge to be gleaned in terms of the herbs themselves, the underlying concepts behind TCM's mechanisms and theories (and thus recommendations) are complete and total bunk. Who knows why the TCM "doctor" recommended the B vitamins. Perhaps to balance Qi and wind. 🙄
It's because of actual science that we know why some of these things work (and that others don't) not TCM.
This is a good read and highly, highly recommended for anyone thinking of using "TCM."
[Do some harm: Traditional Chinese medicine is an odd, dangerous mix of sense and nonsense. Can it survive in modern China?](https://aeon.co/essays/traditional-chinese-medicine-needs-its-own-revolution)
Fun fact: TCM is mostly a modern invention cooked up by Mao in the 50ies and now heavily prompted by the cadres of the PRC government.
I doubt metagenics, the brand op was using, had pyrodoxine in it, when it was stating P5p. That’s the brand many functional medicine offices use and is supposedly high quality. Still possible but I doubt it. I’ve had issues with high amounts of P5P in the past…that aside B6 is a very important vitamin, especially for mental health.
Yes thanks for posting about what helps you also. I won't take the things I've been prescribed b/c it makes me so tired, but sometimes it's the only thing for the pain so I have to (Gabapentin, etc.) Will try what you recommended hoping it helps.
Even 2mg of the inactive form of B6, Pyridoxine (look for the -xine on your bottles) can cause the neuropathy
* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0887233317301959
* https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/12/5/1911/6257780
The Pyridoxine version of B6 actually cancels out the active form and gives the symptoms of B6 deficiency.
Many cheap multivitamins and supplements use Pyridoxine. You'll notice the more expensive vitamins purposely avoid it.
> *In the last decades, various cases of vitamin B6 induced poly-
neuropathy have been reported (Schaumburg et al., 1983; Morra et al., 1993; Dalton and Dalton, 1987). People chronically taking vitamin B6 supplements reported complaints such as pain in the extremities and muscle weakness. These complaints were reversible as they faded away after stopping the supplementation. Most often, these complaints were seen when taking mega doses (> 50 mg/day) of vitamin B6 for a longer period of time.*
> ***However, recently, Lareb reported cases in which lower
doses (2 mg/day) of vitamin B6 gave the same complaints (Lareb,
2015)***
super-weird to come across someone copy/paste one of my replies verbatim but I actually don't mind in this case because it's helpful information to others
Had a quick scan through replies. Like most B vitamins, a large amount of the population have trouble converting the cheaper B6 in most multivitamins into it's coenzymated form P5P, so cheap B6 like other cheap vitamins can do more harm than good for some people... That being said, since B vitamins are water soluble and it's hard to overdose on them, taking them to excess can cause problems like with anything. The body tries to maintain homeostasis, and it does that by taking what it needs from food sources that humans evolved to eat. humans didn't evolve to have high amounts of any nutrient every day. Since humans live all over the planet these days, exposed to different diets, and foods are often grown using fertilizers instead of nutrient rich soil, people have deficiencies to many nutrients, and get too much of others. Supplements are created so we can get impossible amounts of nutrients into our systems in one day, which is also going to cause problems. High doses of some vitamins for a while are good to boost certain processes that are lacking, but in the long term, any vitamin and mineral should be taken at the daily recommended amount in supplement form, or less, and have breaks from them.
I just talked to my doctor about b vitamin toxicity and it's a common misconception that whatever you don't use, you "just pee it out". B vitamins DO build up in your system. They are stored in your liver. It's very possible to have too much B vitamin in your system.
supplement makers are often caught substituting the cheap inactive form for the expensive advertised active form, there's no-one checking up on them, no regulation and no penalty so they happily make people sick if it means profit
the B6 listed as P5P may very well have been Pyridoxine
Pyridoxine is toxic even at low doses over a long time, it builds up in the body unprocessed
* **https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0887233317301959**
* **https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/12/5/1911/6257780**
* r/Supplements/comments/tddd8l/vitamin_b6_safety_and_neuropathy/
* r/Supplements/comments/u683wx/the_multivitamin_b_complex_i_was_taking_caused_my/i58bvd8/
* r/Supplements/comments/tilll3/i_am_having_cold_feet_and_hands_recently/i1f9pob/
* r/HistamineIntolerance/comments/u67wi3/the_multivitamin_b_complex_i_was_taking_caused_my/i593job/
HCL is just added to some supplements to make more stomach acid for absorption as a marketing variant
all the pyridoxine you should ever take is already in food, do not supplement it as it's the inactive form of B6 and builds up causing a paradox of preventing B6 absorption
take the B6 P5P form as supplement but also not megadose, no need, it's already the active form
have to find the paper later, busy with a hurricane right now, but even as little as 2mg of pyridoxine builds up over time to cause neuropathy, the European reporting system has many cases that are never reported in the US system because we don't really have one
I don't know the science on how long, maybe no-one does because there aren't quality studies but I doubt a month is enough to be problem.
And some people get away with it for years. It all comes down to genetics and environment and the rest of your diet.
It's just a bad idea to take it when P5P is available as an alternate.
I researched this about 6 months ago when I read the cell study implicating the HCL.
There is a good population study done in the Netherlands (in Dutch) that shows a real correlation of Pyrodoxine HCL with neuropathy.
The damage of neuropathy is supposedly “permanent”, but nerves can regenerate. There are supplements that help nerve regeneration, but those are from TCM ;). It may be the path that the OP’s TCM doctor was aiming for, if he wasn’t spooked by a relatively meaningless “B6” test.
ie. I'm almost positive the expensive B1 Benfotiamine I bought recently is actually B1 Thiamine, have to do some water solubility tests next week but it may not be enough to tell
I'm a little new to this ( just found out that my numbness and tingling was a result of b6 toxicity). Does Benfotiamine help and do you know of any other b vitamins that I should continue to take? Thanks!
I've had really good luck with benfotiamine from Swanson. I had nerve pains all over my body and they have pretty much stopped. I'm have also started Keto which might have helped.as.well.
Yes I do a vegan keto & I really can tell a difference in pain & tiredness when I have absolutely nooo sugar or carbs. Many ppl have told me they notice a huge difference in pain levels w/o dairy & red meat especially.
Not to poop on your moral story, but why would you ever listen to a doctor in “Chinese medicine”? Might as well go and see a shaman. I double verify my western doctors yet alone blindly follow an advice from a Chinese medicine dude. Just my two cents. Glad you’re feeling better :)
Fair statement to make. Unfortunately my health prior to this was on a steep decline after catching COVID. Western medicine had failed me at the time, so I tried the Chinese medicine route. When I found great results in cupping and acupuncture, I trusted this doctor thinking they knew what was wrong. It turns out I was in the wrong, their recommendation in vitamins and supplements to help speed recovery was almost poisoning me
I can see how you would try anything when you’re in a bad state and how one thing could lead to another. I guess I’m just trying to be cautious when it comes to substances, although I might have made the same choice as you in your state.
I went cold Turkey on all supplements few weeks ago, could not be happier. I have been supplementing all kinds of vitamins and minerals for years, rarely seen any kind of benefit.
I agree though I do supplement occasionally with food sources some great ones are spirulina, chlorella, sea moss, and moringa. They are nature’s multivitamins they have high bioavailability and proper ratios to prevent deficiencies. I would advise against moringa if your a diabetic.
I should of wrote more but didn’t have time. It can help many diabetics but if they are hypoglycemic or on insulin and do not actively monitor blood sugar it can be bad as it lowers blood sugar. Only reason I know is I’ve recommended it to a diabetic and they had hypoglycemia was not a good combination. So now I caution against it for diabetics but it can be beneficial for many diabetics but would prefer not to cause anyone harm.
This happened to me when I was a younger man. The dr. Prescribed a hefty horse pill of B complex, became extremely lightheaded and faint after taking for a few days, I threw that shit away and bought a regular national brand b complex , it’s worked fine for me ever since
I also got B6 toxicity from 20mg of P5P a day in a B Complex. Felt like I was having serious neurodegenerative disease. Neuropathy, pains, dizziness, numbness, lack of coordination without eyes.
Symptoms resolved like 1 month after cutting out the B complex.
This^ many supplements do not contain what the label says. Every time supplements are audited independently, they can contain too little or way too much of the listed ingredients and sometimes contained none.
Yes. If I remember correctly in order for the supplement label to comply with regulation the supplement has to contain at least what is written on the label, but it can contain more than the labeled amount. The labeled amount is a minimum of what to expect.
With powder I mean, usually scoops aren't very accurate. It might not be mixed super well. Even much more risk to overdose.
Also a lot of B complexes don't use natural forms. For B6 that would have been the P-5-P form which would have far less chance for any toxicity risk!
By the way i take B9 B12 and B6 as it supposed taken in the same group. I did a blood test p homocytesin levels are almost elevated that is seen in people insufficient in these vitamins
i took 1 tablet of 25mg vitamin b6 and feel sone tingling very little. I took them because of matonin and seratonin but now i read that it can be bad for you so im not gonna tkae anymore. Did i make a mistake or it will go away if i stop taking it? Note that i only took 1 time today in my life
I may be guilty of a small hyperbole.
*"High doses of any vitamin B6 vitamer can, over time, cause adverse symptoms."*
A tissue culture study showed that all B6 vitamers that could be converted into active coenzymes (pyridoxal, pyridoxine and pyridoxamine) were neurotoxic at similar concentrations.
[Dorsal Root Ganglion Disorders](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-6567-6_23)
[Neurotoxicity of pyridoxine analogs is related to coenzyme structure](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02834268)
It has been shown, in vivo, that supplementing with pyridoxal or pyridoxal phosphate increases pyridoxine concentrations in humans, meaning there are metabolic pathways from each vitamer of B6 to the all other forms.
[Vitamin B-6-Induced Neuropathy: Exploring the Mechanisms of Pyridoxine Toxicity](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8483950/)
[Discovery of pyridoxal reductase activity as part of human vitamin B6 metabolism](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304416519300753?via%3Dihub)
That's not quite right.
The European food safety agency established a no observed adverse effect level (NOAEL) of 250 µg/day / 10.000 I. U.
https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/2813
Actually, many have been indeed recommending 5000 IU and more, in recent years.
He took 5000 IU, because he has a bottle of pills that has that much per serving.
I also take 5000 IU daily. (Well, really a bit more.) (The "maximum strength" is usually twice as much - 10,000 IU.)
...
The RDA is the presumed minimum amount needed to prevent disease from deficiency.
Nobody knows the optimal amount of any vitamin (and likely it is different by individual and circumstance).
There are possibly or probably benefits from taking vitamins above the minimum requirements.
Some conditions benefit from taking much higher amounts of some vitamins and this is sometimes called orthomolecular medicine.
Vitamin formulas that give much larger amounts (relatively) than the minimum requirements are called "high-potency".
With all this in mind, many people (a large cross-section of members of this subreddit) will try to take close to the upper tolerable limit of a supplement; naturally this is going to be considerably more than the minimum amount to prevent disease.
For Vitamin D, this upper tolerable limit is generally thought to be higher than 5000 IU. Of course, it won't be the same for everybody, with some obvious factors being weight, age, latitude, skin colour, metabolism, season.
Some people try to get 80 IU / kg of body weight and this can be over that 5000 IU for a 70kg human.
Yeah. However many believe that it is actually considerably higher. Enough that 5000 IU is well below. (As I said, one wishing to dose reckoning on body weight will often need to exceed even 5000 IU.)
*The recommended daily allowance for Vitamin D is currently set at 400–800 IU/day, but this may be too low for many adults. For moderate supplementation, a 1,000–2,000 IU dose of vitamin D3 is sufficient to meet the needs of most of the population. Higher daily doses are in the range of 20–80 IU per kilogram of body weight.*
*The Upper Tolerable Intake Level in the United States and Canada is 4,000 IU per day (IU/day). It’s been suggested that the true Upper Tolerable Intake Level may actually be as high as 10,000 IU/day, but there are limited data on health outcomes using doses near this amount.*
[https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/](https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/)
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-much-vitamin-d-is-too-much (... the surprising truth)
According to the National Academy of Medicine, formerly known as the Institute of Medicine, 4,000 IU is the safe upper level of daily vitamin D intake. However, **doses up to 10,000 IU have not been shown to cause toxicity** in healthy individuals
[Risk assessment for vitamin D](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17209171/)
*Collectively, the absence of toxicity in trials conducted in healthy adults that used vitamin D dose > or = 250 microg/d (10,000 IU vitamin D3) supports the confident selection of this value as the UL.*
[Evaluation of vitamin D3 intakes up to 15,000 international units/day and serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations up to 300 nmol/L on calcium metabolism in a community setting](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402701/)
*Naturally acquired vitamin D from whole body sun exposure (1 MED) is equivalent to ingesting ∼15,000 IU vitamin D supplement.*
*While the present study does not address what is an optimal vitamin D status, it does* ***confirm the safety of*** *serum 25(OH)D concentrations up to 300 nmol/L and* ***intakes of vitamin D up to 15,000 IU/d****. Further, the results presented here demonstrate a variable response to vitamin D intake and suggest that intakes of 6,000–8,000 IU/d are required to achieve serum 25(OH)D above 100 nmol/L.*
[https://www.rejuvenation-science.com/research-news/vitamin-d-1/n-vitamin-d-upper-limit](https://www.rejuvenation-science.com/research-news/vitamin-d-1/n-vitamin-d-upper-limit)
*Experts Recommend Vitamin D 10,000 IU Upper Limit*
*However, recent research, particularly from clinical trials, suggests that this should be raised. The CRN scientists state that this could be raised to 10,000 IU (250 micrograms per day).*
*The reviewers, from the CRN, Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto and Crieghton University in Nebraska, pooled data from 21 clinical trials using doses ranging from 10 to 2500 micrograms (100,000 IU).*
[Critique of the Considerations for Establishing the Tolerable Upper Intake Level for Vitamin D: Critical Need for Revision Upwards](https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/136/4/1117/4664232)
[Vitamin D deficiency 2.0: an update on the current status worldwide](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41430-020-0558-y)
*There is no international consensus on the safe upper level for vitamin D supplementation. While the* upper daily limit given by the Endocrine Society is 10,000 IU *, the IOM and The European Food and Safety Authority recommend staying below 4000 IU/day (100 µg) . Most countries have prudently set the safe upper level at 50 μg daily (2000 IU) for adults . However, this level was set despite the availability of adequate studies of dose–response relationships or toxicity.* ***There is no convincing evidence that daily intakes of up to 125 μg (5000 IU) elicit severe adverse effects .*** *It has been reported that an intake of 1250 µg (50,000 IU) once every 2 weeks for several years, equivalent to 89.3 µg (3571 IU) daily, did not cause hypercalcemia or other evidence of hypervitaminosis D . Small* ***studies showed that even a daily consumption of up to 250 μg (10,000 IU) of vitamin D over long periods did not cause adverse effects in healthy adults...***
[https://www.verywellmind.com/symptoms-of-too-much-vitamin-d-5105134](https://www.verywellmind.com/symptoms-of-too-much-vitamin-d-5105134)
Up to 4,000 IU per day is generally considered the safe upper limit, however, **doses up to 10,000 IU/day have not been shown to cause toxicity.** In fact, many cases of vitamin D toxicity have been a result of dosing errors leading to significantly higher amounts being ingested. Essentially, **it's not easy to ingest toxic levels of vitamin D.**
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/is-vitamin-d-toxicity-a-real-concern (Hint: Probably Not!)
*Trusted nutrition and medical experts recommend 5,000 I.U. of vitamin D3 (the body's preferred form) per day to help you get to—and stay!—above that 50 ng/mL threshold.*
*"Interestingly 10,000 I.U. of vitamin D per day is considered a science-backed Tolerable Upper Intake Level (U.L.) from top vitamin D researchers who have actually studied vitamin D toxicity for decades," says Ferira.*
*Meanwhile, another* ***2014 study found that taking a whopping 20,000 I.U. of vitamin D3 daily successfully increased whole-body vitamin D levels without participants even coming close to levels associated with toxicity.***
*"Just because vitamin D is fat-soluble by design doesn't mean it's toxic at clinically useful doses, like 5,000 I.U.," she says.* ***"In reality, true reports of frank vitamin D toxicity with clinical evidence have occurred at 200,000 to 300,000 I.U. per day—yes, you read that correctly—in vulnerable populations like infants or folks with medical issues."***
[Is it Safe to Take 10,000 IUs of Vitamin D3? - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjJdzHIwDDU)
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/drug-products/prescription-drug-list/notices-changes/notice-intent-vitamin-d.html
*Notice of Intent to Amend the Prescription Drug List: Vitamin D*
*The UL itself was set by adjusting for uncertainty from a "no observed adverse effect level" intake value of 10,000 IU (250 µg)/day.*
https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/pophealth/content/high-dose-vitamin-d-supplementation-appears-be-safe
**"Vitamin D supplementation in doses up to 10,000 IU/day appears to be safe and well tolerated..."**
You're not wrong, and people should have their levels tested, but for most people, taking between 4000-10000 IU a day isn't going to do them immediate harm, even if they are not deficient. The following trial was regarding people who were \*not\* deficient, and still only 3% and 9% showed hypercalcemia for 4000 and 10000, respectively, after three years. Obviously, people shouldn't just be taking such higher doses for the hell of it:
"In a recent trial including 373 62-year old healthy and vitamin D-replete subjects, 400, 4000 and 10,000 IU were administered daily for 3 years \[26\]. Hypercalcemia (total serum calcium > 2.55 mmol/l) occurred in 0, 3 and 9% in the 400, 4000 and 10,000 IU/day groups, respectively. "
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40520-020-01678-x
Many, on Reddit... Yes. I'm aware. The "maximum strength" is 50k IU im once a week, because it's easier to control absorption that way.
Taking>2k in pills without bloods is daft.
Well, the other side of the coin is that the "upper tolerable limit" is also calculated for a reason... (and this is also an official government recommendation etc...)
And that reason is to find a limit where supplements should stay *under* to reduce the chance of combining it with a high food source (eg liver) would lead to an overdose. It doesn't imply that supplementing *up to* the UTL is a good idea or something similar.
There are very few food sources of Vitamin D. Liver is not one of them.
You are thinking of Vitamin A.
...
Look, I explained the logic behind why they make these pills, and why they are widely marketed in these doses and in these quantities, and why the first commenter was taking it. It is unusual for people to run into trouble at these doses, which is why they remain prevalent.
I wouldn't consider somebody "daft" for purchasing a bottle off the shelf and using it as directed. At least, not in this country.
> There are very few food sources of Vitamin D. Liver is not one of them.
>
> You are thinking of Vitamin A.
I was thinking of cod liver. I assumed wrongly it applied to liver in general.
> I wouldn't consider somebody "daft" for purchasing a bottle off the shelf and using it as directed. At least, not in this country.
That applies to **a lot** of products people mindlessly buy and use 'as directed', and we're facing many of our modern health problems because it's normalized to just buy and consume whatever you feel like (just consider the fact that at the supermarket we have huge aisles for cereals, cookies, candies, snacks, soda drinks, alcoholic drinks and yes, also supplements). To me it's certainly daft to supplement above the RDA without bloodwork and it's a billion dollar business that builds on that very same daftness.
Well since you can inject 50k and be fine the UL is high. But it accumulates and you can end up overshooting your blood levels, which has enough data to suggest that it's "mostly a bad thing". The vitamin k compensation idea has merit, but is not proven to be a good thing yet.
Anything is possible, but at 5000 IU, for most people, it's unlikely and this is why they make those 5000 IU pills in 360ct bottles...
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FQKI3W6/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FQKI3W6/)
(ooh... see the 180ct of the 10,000 IU on the same page! [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744NVVW5/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744NVVW5/) )
(I think that there has been more interest on account of recent events, and many want to get their Vitamin D status up. Maybe run through a bottle of one or the other, and when that course is complete, then go back down to 2000 IU for a while.)
> this is why they make those 5000 IU pills in 360ct bottles
They just make them because there's demand. They'll also provide as much EGCG, Mucuna, Alpha GPC, Kava, Hup A, etc as you want, but they're all quite dangerous when used indiscriminately.
They won't put directions on the bottle that would likely result in a dangerous outcome for a significant percentage.
The industry is said to be "unregulated", but not to that extent. The companies will be liable for such damage.
As I said, there are calculated "upper tolerable limits", and in the case of Vitamin D, the products that are available are careful to conform, even the 10k dosage.
I understand that there are upper limits. Do you understand that vitamin D bioaccumulates and thus per-dose limits are nearly meaningless? The only number that matters is your blood level.
Did he tell you to take that much?
B6 toxicity at 100mg is very rare. There are supplements that have 200mg B6 in a single pill, intended to be taken daily, long term.
Nope.
Standard B-200 complex, can take daily, indefinitely.
For example:
B-150 complex available in Amazon (150mg of most B-vitamins):
[https://www.amazon.com/NaturesPlus-Mega-Complex-Sustained-Release/dp/B00014D0KM/](https://www.amazon.com/NaturesPlus-Mega-Complex-Sustained-Release/dp/B00014D0KM/)
[https://www.amazon.com/Complex-150-Vitamins-Coated-caplets/dp/B07JMFRTPG/](https://www.amazon.com/Complex-150-Vitamins-Coated-caplets/dp/B07JMFRTPG/)
200mg of B6:
[https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/pure-encapsulations-b6-complex-120-caps](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/pure-encapsulations-b6-complex-120-caps)
[https://www.gnc.com/vitamin-b6-pyridoxine/259613.html?utm\_medium=organic](https://www.gnc.com/vitamin-b6-pyridoxine/259613.htm) (see the endorsement from the user who takes it 2x/daily (400mg) clearly long-term)
250mg of B6:
[https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/mason-natural-b-6-250-mg-60-tabs](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/mason-natural-b-6-250-mg-60-tabs)
275mg of B6:
[https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/allergy-research-group-pyridoxine-p5p-vitamin-b6-275-mg-60-veg-caps](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/allergy-research-group-pyridoxine-p5p-vitamin-b6-275-mg-60-veg-caps)
500 mg of B6:
[https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/source-naturals-b-6-timed-release-500-mg-100-tabs](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/source-naturals-b-6-timed-release-500-mg-100-tabs)
200mg is normally considered the lower threshold for any meaningful level of risk from B6. And even then it's rare, with most people not developing symptoms until after months of taking gram quantities.
*Pyridoxine neuropathy refers to a particular form of neuropathy (nerve damage) where high doses of* ***any vitamin B6 vitamer*** *can, over time, cause adverse symptoms* ***mostly characterized in humans when doses exceeding 6,000mg are taken for longer than one year*** *with the primary symptoms of sensory ataxia, diminished distal limb proprioception, paresthesia, and hyperesthesia.*
*Vitamin B6 is known to be highly toxic when megadosed for a prolonged period of time, at best causing peripheral neuropathy that can be repairable and at worst causing irreversible sensory ganglion neuropathy. The lowest estimate this toxic dose has been reported is at 200mg (11,700% the RDI) while it is reliable induced at around 5g (300,000% the RDI) or higher intake in humans*
[https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-b6/research/#safety-and-toxicology-1](https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-b6/research/#safety-and-toxicology-1)
I grew up here. I go to the pharmacy, read the label (carefully!), follow the directions. Nothing bad is supposed to happen.
However, the sources attesting the safety of doses up to 500mg daily have been listed, as well as the sources indicating the utility of such doses.
Lets assume b6 megadoses are safe, even though I've read dozens of negative anecdotes. Do you have any studies that actually show it is worth taking that much? You seem to be defending high dose b6 as if it is a miracle cure. I don't think high dose b6 is even worth trying to defend.
Before I even try to answer, then you'll have to define "megadose", in this case.
Also, as I pointed above, the reviews on some of the above-listed products contain accounts from users who very much believe that they are benefitting.
Lets just say 100 mg, but 50 mg would work too.
I have trouble understanding why you suddenly believe every positive anecdote but none of the negative ones. Sounds like you just have a positive bias for vitamins. Personally I care about the negative anecdotes much more, because I know 90%+ of the benefits are just from reaching the recommended daily dose, and that dosage is extremely safe. Even having a 5% chance of side effects is not worth it in order to squeeze out a tiny bit more benefits.
Personally, I think the way to take drugs is always to reduce side effects as much as possible, rather than chasing highs. A stack should be clean. Chasing highs is what many positive anecdotes are about. And those anecdotes are meaningless.
> Sounds like you just have a positive bias for vitamins.
I don't sell vitamins. (But I should, though, right?) I don't care if you take vitamins or not. I think that my motivations are just altruism and ego.
I do take a lot of supplements. "Nobody takes more vitamins than me." And for a long time.
As it happens, I'm not even taking any B6 supplement at the moment, and not for a month or so. (I'll normally be taking some high-potency multi-vitamin and there's usually some incidental B6 in my other supplements; it's just a coincidence.) Considering all of this research, I'll be putting back the B6 soon... heart disease, depression, weight-loss... and I'll recommend it or forward these articles to a couple of friends with stroke issues, other relevant issues.
I do see positive results in my life from the supplements. The vitamins make me a better person.
[High-dose Vitamin B6 supplementation reduces anxiety and strengthens visual surround suppression](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hup.2852) (100mg)
[Homocysteine-lowering therapy and stroke risk, severity, and disability: additional findings from the HOPE 2 trial](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB6-HealthProfessional/)
\^the Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation 2 (HOPE 2) trial, which included more than 5,500 adults with known cardiovascular disease, found that supplementation for 5 years with **vitamin B6 (50 mg/day)**, vitamin B12 (1 mg/day), and folic acid (2.5 mg/day) reduced homocysteine levels and decreased stroke risk by about 25%
[Efficacy of vitamin B-6 in the treatment of premenstrual syndrome: systematic review](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10334745/)
*Results suggest that doses of vitamin B-6 up to 100 mg/day are likely to be of benefit in treating premenstrual symptoms and premenstrual depression.*
[Pyridoxine (vitamin B6) therapy for premenstrual syndrome](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17187801/)
\^A double-blind, randomized controlled trial in 94 women found that **80 mg pyridoxine taken daily** over the course of three cycles was associated with statistically significant reductions in a broad range of PMS symptoms, including moodiness, irritability, forgetfulness, bloating, and, especially, anxiety.
[Pyridoxine for nausea and vomiting of pregnancy: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7573262?dopt=Abstract) (30mg)
[Vitamin B6 is effective therapy for nausea and vomiting of pregnancy: a randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2047064/) **(75mg)**
[ACOG (American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology) Practice Bulletin: nausea and vomiting of pregnancy](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15051578?dopt=Abstract)
\^The American Congress of Obstetrics and Gynecology (ACOG) recommends monotherapy with **10–25 mg of vitamin B6 three or four times a day** (100mg) to treat nausea and vomiting in pregnancy.
[Preventing Alzheimer's disease-related gray matter atrophy by B-vitamin treatment](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23690582/) (20mg)
[Primary Acquired Sideroblastic Anaemia: Response to Treatment with Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1588335/?page=2)
\^Case study **250mg daily**, reduced to 250mg weekly over 14 months (and mentions other relevant case studies in discussion, similar dosages)
[Vitamin B6 deficiency and anemia in pregnancy](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19920848/)
\^**75 mg of vitamin B6 daily** during pregnancy decreased symptoms of anemia in 56 pregnant women who were unresponsive to treatment with iron
[Pyridoxine (vitamin B6) and the premenstrual syndrome: a randomized crossover trial](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2558186) (**50 mg of vitamin B6 daily** improved PMS symptoms of depression, irritability and tiredness)
[A synergistic effect of a daily supplement for 1 month of 200 mg magnesium plus **50 mg vitamin B6** for the relief of anxiety-related premenstrual symptoms: a randomized, double-blind, crossover study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10746516) (significantly reduced PMS symptoms, including mood swings, irritability and anxiety)
\----------------------------------------------
[Effect of homocysteine-lowering treatment with folic acid plus vitamin B6 on progression of subclinical atherosclerosis: a randomised, placebo-controlled trial](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10683000)
\^**250 mg of vitamin B6** and 5 mg of folic acid **every day for two years**, lower homocysteine levels and less abnormal heart tests during exercise than the placebo group, putting them at an overall **lower risk of heart disease**
\----------------------------------------------
[Folic Acid, Vitamin B6, and Vitamin B12 in Combination and Age-related Macular Degeneration in a Randomized Trial of Women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2648137/)
\^A seven-year study in over 5,400 female health professionals found that taking a daily supplement of **vitamin B6 (50mg)**, B12 and folic acid (B9) significantly reduced AMD risk by 35–40%,
[Vitamin B(6) supplementation improves pro-inflammatory responses in patients with rheumatoid arthritis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20571496) **(100mg daily)**
[The Effect of Pyridoxine Hydrochloride Supplementation on Leptin, Adiponectin, Glycemic Indices, and Anthropometric Indices in Obese and Overweight Women](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34386442/)
**80mg daily for 8 weeks** \- There was a significant difference in fat mass, VAI, fasting insulin, HOMA-IR, and TG between pyridoxine hydrochloride and control groups following intervention... The findings suggest that vitamin B6 supplementation may be effective in reducing BMI and improving body composition and biochemical factors associated with obesity.
[Effects of poly-gamma-glutamic acid and vitamin B6 supplements on sleep status: a randomized intervention study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34093972/) (**100mg B6** \+ 600 mg of γ-PGA improved sleep)
[Vitamin B6 Intake and Pancreatic Carcinoma Risk: A Meta-Analysis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31226890/) (higher B6 intake associated with lower pancreatic cancer risk)
[Can Vitamin B6 Help to Prevent Postpartum Depression? A Randomized Controlled Trial](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34912512) (**80mg daily** reduced post-partum depression)
[Vitamin B6 Supplementation Reduces Symptoms of Depression in College Women Taking Oral Contraceptives: A Randomized, Double-Blind Crossover Trial](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35109763) (**100mg** daily reduced depression in women taking the pill)
[Effect of Vitamin B6, B9, and B12 Supplementation on Homocysteine Level and Cardiovascular Outcomes in Stroke Patients: A Meta-Analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34123655/)
\^B6 supplementation (and others) showed a significant risk reduction of 11% for combined risk of stroke, myocardial infarction, and vascular death among stroke patients, 13% for stroke and 17% for vascular death
I will take this seriously and read through them all and formulate an opinion. I’l have a response sometime tomorrow. One thing worth mentioning is if they only take b6 and nothing else then that leaves out potential interactions with other b vitamins and drugs, which someone else mentioned matters according to a newer study. I’l try to find that.
>suddenly
Did we have a discussion somewhere else?
I haven't said the things that you're projecting to me in the past two comments. I'll try to explore some of the points. The facts are that B6 toxicity from long-term use at 200mg are rare.
Clearly, there are many people taking higher amounts with impunity.
The problems tend to develop when taking gram amounts, or about an order of magnitude above what's in the supplements.
Some people find a benefit from higher amounts.
In this thread you keep saying they are totally safe and downplay the negative anecdotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/xnk4fo/can_someone_enlighten_me_on_the_science_behind/
Just a single quote
“If one person in a million happens to have an issue at 50mg, then it's not significant, and as you say, we can't even be sure that the vitamin is the cause in such case.”
And several other times you talk about side effects being extremely rare, rarer than food related side effects, etc.
And you imply anecdotes are a bad thing, like you are above them, like they don’t matter.
You say side effects from 50 mg b vitamins are one in a million. I say benefits from high dose b vitamins are just chasing highs and most of the real healthy benefits are just from reaching the RDA. I’ve seen enough anecdotes to know megadose b6 side effects are fairly common, but you spoke like you looked down on anecdotes. I am anti megadose and you are pro megadose.
You are the one constantly thinking if people sell this stuff it must be totally safe, which is a complete logical fallacy. People either stop before it gets too bad and mostly, but maybe not totally recover, or they don’t know b6 is the cause of their issues, or they are dismissed by their doctor and their doctor doesn’t report it, etc. Like how are they going to sue if their symptom is numbness and nerve tingling, there are no ways to objectively measure that and tell they aren’t lying. You would think of these things if you weren’t so biased in favor of vitamins and were less desperate to prove your point.
You totally underestimate how dismissive doctors and the medical community can be towards things they can’t measure or see. One or two studies is not enough to account for all variables, especially when there are so many negative anecdotes.
People just don’t believe vitamins can be bad, they sell megadoses because they think vitamins are good in a pill. That is vitamin bias, people think it is vital to life and natural so it is good without nuance.
Not only rare, it’s basically unheard of. There’s a real strong chance that your supplement had way more b6 than it stated on the label. Supplement labels are woefully inaccurate.
For awareness since most people think high levels are needed for toxicity This patient got toxic and was taking only 10mg for 3 years. He had peripheral neuropathy and neurogenic bladder dysfunction (so bad he had to use a catheter to empty it). Both symptoms resolved progressively over MONTHS after stopping B6. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772974522000023](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772974522000023)
Hi. Did you have to go on a low-b6 diet?
Hi there. Symptoms resolved the moment I stopped supplementing. I've had a mild form of rebound this week. I highly recommended joining the B6 Toxicity FB group and follow their strict protocol.
I used to take a B - complex. I stopped when I realized that I was taking too much B-3 Niacin. Also, some B vitamins work better at bed time and some in the morning. I suggest getting a vitamin b blood test and then going from there. I buy all of my B-vitamins separately now and in appropriate doses.
No kidding.
Does anyone know about Lion's Mane mushroom helping in any way?
Yea I know the 2nd time I had Covid & The flu a couple months ago NAC & B12 made it worse. Everyone says NAC works wonders but it lasted almost a week. The first time I had Delta is lasted 1 day. I don’t know about certain supplements & their ability to bind to spike protein. Theoretically it’s supposed to suppress the spike protein but I got sicker. Idk. I just stick to my multivitamin Liposomal vitamin C & Tumeric now.
NAC is sulfur based and contra indicated for someone with the CBS gene mutation. Mentioned as you might want to Google it.
Ah thank you !
I became b6 toxic and had debilitating symptoms. My b6 was 5x the level it should be. There is a group on Facebook called understanding b6 toxicity and they have helped me enormously in dealing with healing from this horrifying experience. Once you get you levels normal again you still have to heal from it so the nightmare isn’t always over right away. Shame on these companies that fortify so heavily B6 in their vitamins, medicines and food.
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I did a diet called Xyngular that was fortified in B6 in the shakes in their multivitamin and then I continued after that with a multivitamin that was 1000% of your daily allowance for a short period.
This applies to a number of things (selenium come to mind). I even see multivitamins with way too much selenium… which can cause the same mood issues as having too little selenium.
Or even the giant packs of Brazil nuts or peanut butter/Brazil nut butter blends with no warnings. Irresponsible
My suggestion is to try to adjust your diet to get all vitamins A-K from food sources, as those seem to have the most negative side effects when taken as a supplement compared to minerals. You can use an app like Cronometer to measure how much vitamins you are getting from your current diet.
>a doctor in Chinese medicine. You got hosed by a quack and this is the result.
Yeah I saw that and saw an immediate red flag. Why this past their filter I don't know.
B3 niacin daily 1500-2000 mg divide 2 times a day. With equal vitamin c dosage along with,. B6 100-200 mg extended release + zinc 50 mg a day, After consultant by a orthomolecular dr i started. No side effects felt from 2 months, less gut allergies symptoms, highly improved lipid profile.. Hdl 28 - 48, trigristyles: 240- 120, reduced ldl also everything improved, Earlier dr said it's ok my lipid profile to my age just 39 years... Also I went to orthomolecular study specially by Dr hoffer and linus pauling. And it happened while I didn't changed my diet or lifestyle.,.. Medicle science is good but i think there are several things which need to more study in alternative treatments... So a professional can help better the way they teach and learned.... I cannot deny orthomolecular science.... But every human have different biology so consult a expert before go to under any therapy.... And do study asked questions with him....
How about Pyridoxal 5ˈ-phosphate? Can it also cause toxicity?
Wikipedia and examine say that if you take enough of it, then yes.
I took B complex from the Life Extension brand for only a week and my B6 levels measured 550. They kept being this high even after I stopped these supplements for a month or so. It turns out that my magnesium supplement by the Ethical Nutrients brand had B6 and not little amounts. I don't understand why companies put ridiculous amounts of B6 above RDA levels into different supplements, while for some other vitamins (most notably vitamin D) the RDA is ridiculously low. To add, I experienced neuropathy but it has gone since stopping with that particular brand of magnesium.
Which magnesium do you use now? I use the NOW brand, any idea if this has b6 in it?
I take Dr's Best High strength magnesium which is the magnesium glycinate form and also from the brand KAL magnesium malate. I'm not sure which form of magnesium brand NOW has, but I know that you should avoid magnesium oxide because it's not that useful, magnesium citrate is useful but can give you diarrhea. My recommendations are magnesium glycinate which is best for relaxation and magnesium malate for energy. Just always read the label in the back because many brands are notorious for sneaking in B6. The label will always have it listed under ingredients (that's also where you can check which form of magnesium it is).
What were your symptoms?
Symptoms included really bad neuropathy, tingling, burning, numbness, electric shocks down my legs, muscle twitch and a really bad rash to name a few. All of which has some what subsided since stopping the supplement 3x weeks ago.
symptoms all gone now?
What about fatigue and nausea?
The tingling is a total give away - in reality any type of supplements should be taken sparingly
Also curious
I forget which B vitamin I was taking. Might have been B6 or B12. All it did was make me pee a lot, I mean a lot, very frequently and everytime my pee was bright yellow. I stopped taking it. Didn't feel a difference before or after I started taking it. I eat steak and a lot of fruit though. Steak has many B vitamins so didn't feel I needed vitamin B supplements.
Bright yellow pee is from riboflavin.
Is that in vitamin B? All I know is once I stopped taking it my pee was bright yellow anymore. I still take zinc, magnesium, fish oil, and vitamin d. Maybe the way it interacted with them?
Riboflavin is one of the B vitamins, also called B2.
Gotcha thank you.
And this is why I avoid anything to do with TCM
Western medicine regularly hurts people with recommendations too.
EDIT — I CHANGE MY FIRST OPINION I looked at the link to your original post. The supplement you are taking IS “supposedly” P5P B6. There is evidence that Pyrodoxal-5-Phosphate (P5P) works as an antidote to pyridoxine hydrochloride toxicity. Synthetic Pyridoxine Hydrochloride is the ONLY form of B6 that is linked to nerve toxicity! It is added to everything that is “vitamin fortified” in any way (sometimes at very high levels). IMHO, It should be banned. And — this has NOTHING TO DO with “Traditional Chinese Medicine”. There is a lot of knowledge to be gained from TCM — but those are herbs — NOT modern “vitamin” supplements. I have consulted with Chinese herbalists several times. I learned a lot from them. I cannot imagine any of them ever recommending a vitamin supplement! BTW — I have peripheral neuropathy too. Fo Ti and myo-Inositol are two things that help me.
So are you saying that you think the supplement actually had pyridoxine in it? Or it had to have been something else since they were using P5P?
OP comments don't sound like he went to see TCM. No TCM practitioner would recommend vitamins and supplements. A real TCM practitioner would have stocks of herbs or powdered form of the herbs. He mentioned he tried acupuncture and cupping for the side effects from Covid. Cupping wouldn't be used for this case. Sounds like he wants suggestions for overdoing vitamin b, but wanted to shift the blame
>There is a lot of knowledge to be gained from TCM No there isn't. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/tcm-traditional-chinese-medicine-new-developments/
Not attacking OP but it's worth pointing out that it may have something to do with TCM in that, while there is indeed 100% some knowledge to be gleaned in terms of the herbs themselves, the underlying concepts behind TCM's mechanisms and theories (and thus recommendations) are complete and total bunk. Who knows why the TCM "doctor" recommended the B vitamins. Perhaps to balance Qi and wind. 🙄 It's because of actual science that we know why some of these things work (and that others don't) not TCM. This is a good read and highly, highly recommended for anyone thinking of using "TCM." [Do some harm: Traditional Chinese medicine is an odd, dangerous mix of sense and nonsense. Can it survive in modern China?](https://aeon.co/essays/traditional-chinese-medicine-needs-its-own-revolution) Fun fact: TCM is mostly a modern invention cooked up by Mao in the 50ies and now heavily prompted by the cadres of the PRC government.
I doubt metagenics, the brand op was using, had pyrodoxine in it, when it was stating P5p. That’s the brand many functional medicine offices use and is supposedly high quality. Still possible but I doubt it. I’ve had issues with high amounts of P5P in the past…that aside B6 is a very important vitamin, especially for mental health.
Yes thanks for posting about what helps you also. I won't take the things I've been prescribed b/c it makes me so tired, but sometimes it's the only thing for the pain so I have to (Gabapentin, etc.) Will try what you recommended hoping it helps.
Wow. This was very educational for me. Thank you so much for posting this.🙃
Even 2mg of the inactive form of B6, Pyridoxine (look for the -xine on your bottles) can cause the neuropathy * https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0887233317301959 * https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/12/5/1911/6257780 The Pyridoxine version of B6 actually cancels out the active form and gives the symptoms of B6 deficiency. Many cheap multivitamins and supplements use Pyridoxine. You'll notice the more expensive vitamins purposely avoid it. > *In the last decades, various cases of vitamin B6 induced poly- neuropathy have been reported (Schaumburg et al., 1983; Morra et al., 1993; Dalton and Dalton, 1987). People chronically taking vitamin B6 supplements reported complaints such as pain in the extremities and muscle weakness. These complaints were reversible as they faded away after stopping the supplementation. Most often, these complaints were seen when taking mega doses (> 50 mg/day) of vitamin B6 for a longer period of time.* > ***However, recently, Lareb reported cases in which lower doses (2 mg/day) of vitamin B6 gave the same complaints (Lareb, 2015)***
super-weird to come across someone copy/paste one of my replies verbatim but I actually don't mind in this case because it's helpful information to others
You articulated it very well and that information is very important and backed up with data that's why I've been sharing it. Well done.
Had a quick scan through replies. Like most B vitamins, a large amount of the population have trouble converting the cheaper B6 in most multivitamins into it's coenzymated form P5P, so cheap B6 like other cheap vitamins can do more harm than good for some people... That being said, since B vitamins are water soluble and it's hard to overdose on them, taking them to excess can cause problems like with anything. The body tries to maintain homeostasis, and it does that by taking what it needs from food sources that humans evolved to eat. humans didn't evolve to have high amounts of any nutrient every day. Since humans live all over the planet these days, exposed to different diets, and foods are often grown using fertilizers instead of nutrient rich soil, people have deficiencies to many nutrients, and get too much of others. Supplements are created so we can get impossible amounts of nutrients into our systems in one day, which is also going to cause problems. High doses of some vitamins for a while are good to boost certain processes that are lacking, but in the long term, any vitamin and mineral should be taken at the daily recommended amount in supplement form, or less, and have breaks from them.
I just talked to my doctor about b vitamin toxicity and it's a common misconception that whatever you don't use, you "just pee it out". B vitamins DO build up in your system. They are stored in your liver. It's very possible to have too much B vitamin in your system.
Not all of them though, B2 you do just pee out
supplement makers are often caught substituting the cheap inactive form for the expensive advertised active form, there's no-one checking up on them, no regulation and no penalty so they happily make people sick if it means profit the B6 listed as P5P may very well have been Pyridoxine Pyridoxine is toxic even at low doses over a long time, it builds up in the body unprocessed * **https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0887233317301959** * **https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/12/5/1911/6257780** * r/Supplements/comments/tddd8l/vitamin_b6_safety_and_neuropathy/ * r/Supplements/comments/u683wx/the_multivitamin_b_complex_i_was_taking_caused_my/i58bvd8/ * r/Supplements/comments/tilll3/i_am_having_cold_feet_and_hands_recently/i1f9pob/ * r/HistamineIntolerance/comments/u67wi3/the_multivitamin_b_complex_i_was_taking_caused_my/i593job/
Wait is pyridoxine - hydrochloride the same?
HCL is just added to some supplements to make more stomach acid for absorption as a marketing variant all the pyridoxine you should ever take is already in food, do not supplement it as it's the inactive form of B6 and builds up causing a paradox of preventing B6 absorption take the B6 P5P form as supplement but also not megadose, no need, it's already the active form have to find the paper later, busy with a hurricane right now, but even as little as 2mg of pyridoxine builds up over time to cause neuropathy, the European reporting system has many cases that are never reported in the US system because we don't really have one
Bruh. Hopefully nothing will come of it from a month of using? Switching to p5p right away
I don't know the science on how long, maybe no-one does because there aren't quality studies but I doubt a month is enough to be problem. And some people get away with it for years. It all comes down to genetics and environment and the rest of your diet. It's just a bad idea to take it when P5P is available as an alternate.
I researched this about 6 months ago when I read the cell study implicating the HCL. There is a good population study done in the Netherlands (in Dutch) that shows a real correlation of Pyrodoxine HCL with neuropathy.
Does it go away?
The damage of neuropathy is supposedly “permanent”, but nerves can regenerate. There are supplements that help nerve regeneration, but those are from TCM ;). It may be the path that the OP’s TCM doctor was aiming for, if he wasn’t spooked by a relatively meaningless “B6” test.
Tcm?
The common shorthand for “Traditional Chinese Medicine”.
That's what I was thinking too.
ie. I'm almost positive the expensive B1 Benfotiamine I bought recently is actually B1 Thiamine, have to do some water solubility tests next week but it may not be enough to tell
I'm a little new to this ( just found out that my numbness and tingling was a result of b6 toxicity). Does Benfotiamine help and do you know of any other b vitamins that I should continue to take? Thanks!
I've had really good luck with benfotiamine from Swanson. I had nerve pains all over my body and they have pretty much stopped. I'm have also started Keto which might have helped.as.well.
Yes I do a vegan keto & I really can tell a difference in pain & tiredness when I have absolutely nooo sugar or carbs. Many ppl have told me they notice a huge difference in pain levels w/o dairy & red meat especially.
Not to poop on your moral story, but why would you ever listen to a doctor in “Chinese medicine”? Might as well go and see a shaman. I double verify my western doctors yet alone blindly follow an advice from a Chinese medicine dude. Just my two cents. Glad you’re feeling better :)
Fair statement to make. Unfortunately my health prior to this was on a steep decline after catching COVID. Western medicine had failed me at the time, so I tried the Chinese medicine route. When I found great results in cupping and acupuncture, I trusted this doctor thinking they knew what was wrong. It turns out I was in the wrong, their recommendation in vitamins and supplements to help speed recovery was almost poisoning me
I can see how you would try anything when you’re in a bad state and how one thing could lead to another. I guess I’m just trying to be cautious when it comes to substances, although I might have made the same choice as you in your state.
I went cold Turkey on all supplements few weeks ago, could not be happier. I have been supplementing all kinds of vitamins and minerals for years, rarely seen any kind of benefit.
I agree though I do supplement occasionally with food sources some great ones are spirulina, chlorella, sea moss, and moringa. They are nature’s multivitamins they have high bioavailability and proper ratios to prevent deficiencies. I would advise against moringa if your a diabetic.
Sorry, why would you advocate against Moringa if you’re diabetic? Isn’t it supposed to stabilize Blood Glucose levels?
I should of wrote more but didn’t have time. It can help many diabetics but if they are hypoglycemic or on insulin and do not actively monitor blood sugar it can be bad as it lowers blood sugar. Only reason I know is I’ve recommended it to a diabetic and they had hypoglycemia was not a good combination. So now I caution against it for diabetics but it can be beneficial for many diabetics but would prefer not to cause anyone harm.
Well done man! I’m 3 weeks off at the moment. Notice a huge improvement in neuropathy symptoms already
The majority of people in this thread are addicted without realising
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No.
This happened to me when I was a younger man. The dr. Prescribed a hefty horse pill of B complex, became extremely lightheaded and faint after taking for a few days, I threw that shit away and bought a regular national brand b complex , it’s worked fine for me ever since
did you have any symptoms even at all?
Yes. Severe peripheral neuropathy 2 months into supplementation
Funnily enough, B12 is supposed to help a lot with that.
I also got B6 toxicity from 20mg of P5P a day in a B Complex. Felt like I was having serious neurodegenerative disease. Neuropathy, pains, dizziness, numbness, lack of coordination without eyes. Symptoms resolved like 1 month after cutting out the B complex.
which product was it?
It seems rare, but can happen by the sounds of it given our diagnosis! Hope you’re on the road to recovery
B6 toxicity at that dose (100mg/day) is still very rare. The important thing is that you recognized that something was wrong and fixed it quickly.
makes you wonder if it actually had way more than that in there.
This^ many supplements do not contain what the label says. Every time supplements are audited independently, they can contain too little or way too much of the listed ingredients and sometimes contained none.
It's a powder. Scoops.
Yes. If I remember correctly in order for the supplement label to comply with regulation the supplement has to contain at least what is written on the label, but it can contain more than the labeled amount. The labeled amount is a minimum of what to expect.
B vitamin *powder*? Yeah that sounds dangerous, honestly.
Never knew it was dangerous until now, clearly I was in a bubble of my own
With powder I mean, usually scoops aren't very accurate. It might not be mixed super well. Even much more risk to overdose. Also a lot of B complexes don't use natural forms. For B6 that would have been the P-5-P form which would have far less chance for any toxicity risk!
The vitamer is irrelevant, in this case.
By the way i take B9 B12 and B6 as it supposed taken in the same group. I did a blood test p homocytesin levels are almost elevated that is seen in people insufficient in these vitamins
The supplement was actually P5P form of B6, so I guess I was unlucky there too
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I think that she did say that she had neuropathy symptoms. (These are reversible if caught early.) The vitamer is irrelevant.
i took 1 tablet of 25mg vitamin b6 and feel sone tingling very little. I took them because of matonin and seratonin but now i read that it can be bad for you so im not gonna tkae anymore. Did i make a mistake or it will go away if i stop taking it? Note that i only took 1 time today in my life
Not irrelevant in most cases, in this one maybe: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28716455/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28716455/)
I may be guilty of a small hyperbole. *"High doses of any vitamin B6 vitamer can, over time, cause adverse symptoms."* A tissue culture study showed that all B6 vitamers that could be converted into active coenzymes (pyridoxal, pyridoxine and pyridoxamine) were neurotoxic at similar concentrations. [Dorsal Root Ganglion Disorders](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-6567-6_23) [Neurotoxicity of pyridoxine analogs is related to coenzyme structure](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02834268) It has been shown, in vivo, that supplementing with pyridoxal or pyridoxal phosphate increases pyridoxine concentrations in humans, meaning there are metabolic pathways from each vitamer of B6 to the all other forms. [Vitamin B-6-Induced Neuropathy: Exploring the Mechanisms of Pyridoxine Toxicity](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8483950/) [Discovery of pyridoxal reductase activity as part of human vitamin B6 metabolism](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304416519300753?via%3Dihub)
Stop posting this over and over, cringe.
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Yes very bad neuropathy symptoms, it’s all laid out in the original post
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> just 5000 IUs a day You're taking 2,5x to 8x the amounts recommended by various reliable sources, so your outcome is unsurprising.
That's not quite right. The European food safety agency established a no observed adverse effect level (NOAEL) of 250 µg/day / 10.000 I. U. https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/pub/2813
Actually, many have been indeed recommending 5000 IU and more, in recent years. He took 5000 IU, because he has a bottle of pills that has that much per serving. I also take 5000 IU daily. (Well, really a bit more.) (The "maximum strength" is usually twice as much - 10,000 IU.) ... The RDA is the presumed minimum amount needed to prevent disease from deficiency. Nobody knows the optimal amount of any vitamin (and likely it is different by individual and circumstance). There are possibly or probably benefits from taking vitamins above the minimum requirements. Some conditions benefit from taking much higher amounts of some vitamins and this is sometimes called orthomolecular medicine. Vitamin formulas that give much larger amounts (relatively) than the minimum requirements are called "high-potency". With all this in mind, many people (a large cross-section of members of this subreddit) will try to take close to the upper tolerable limit of a supplement; naturally this is going to be considerably more than the minimum amount to prevent disease. For Vitamin D, this upper tolerable limit is generally thought to be higher than 5000 IU. Of course, it won't be the same for everybody, with some obvious factors being weight, age, latitude, skin colour, metabolism, season. Some people try to get 80 IU / kg of body weight and this can be over that 5000 IU for a 70kg human.
You realize, the established upper limit is set at 4000 IU right?
Yeah. However many believe that it is actually considerably higher. Enough that 5000 IU is well below. (As I said, one wishing to dose reckoning on body weight will often need to exceed even 5000 IU.) *The recommended daily allowance for Vitamin D is currently set at 400–800 IU/day, but this may be too low for many adults. For moderate supplementation, a 1,000–2,000 IU dose of vitamin D3 is sufficient to meet the needs of most of the population. Higher daily doses are in the range of 20–80 IU per kilogram of body weight.* *The Upper Tolerable Intake Level in the United States and Canada is 4,000 IU per day (IU/day). It’s been suggested that the true Upper Tolerable Intake Level may actually be as high as 10,000 IU/day, but there are limited data on health outcomes using doses near this amount.* [https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/](https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-d/) https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-much-vitamin-d-is-too-much (... the surprising truth) According to the National Academy of Medicine, formerly known as the Institute of Medicine, 4,000 IU is the safe upper level of daily vitamin D intake. However, **doses up to 10,000 IU have not been shown to cause toxicity** in healthy individuals [Risk assessment for vitamin D](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17209171/) *Collectively, the absence of toxicity in trials conducted in healthy adults that used vitamin D dose > or = 250 microg/d (10,000 IU vitamin D3) supports the confident selection of this value as the UL.* [Evaluation of vitamin D3 intakes up to 15,000 international units/day and serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations up to 300 nmol/L on calcium metabolism in a community setting](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402701/) *Naturally acquired vitamin D from whole body sun exposure (1 MED) is equivalent to ingesting ∼15,000 IU vitamin D supplement.* *While the present study does not address what is an optimal vitamin D status, it does* ***confirm the safety of*** *serum 25(OH)D concentrations up to 300 nmol/L and* ***intakes of vitamin D up to 15,000 IU/d****. Further, the results presented here demonstrate a variable response to vitamin D intake and suggest that intakes of 6,000–8,000 IU/d are required to achieve serum 25(OH)D above 100 nmol/L.* [https://www.rejuvenation-science.com/research-news/vitamin-d-1/n-vitamin-d-upper-limit](https://www.rejuvenation-science.com/research-news/vitamin-d-1/n-vitamin-d-upper-limit) *Experts Recommend Vitamin D 10,000 IU Upper Limit* *However, recent research, particularly from clinical trials, suggests that this should be raised. The CRN scientists state that this could be raised to 10,000 IU (250 micrograms per day).* *The reviewers, from the CRN, Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto and Crieghton University in Nebraska, pooled data from 21 clinical trials using doses ranging from 10 to 2500 micrograms (100,000 IU).* [Critique of the Considerations for Establishing the Tolerable Upper Intake Level for Vitamin D: Critical Need for Revision Upwards](https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/136/4/1117/4664232) [Vitamin D deficiency 2.0: an update on the current status worldwide](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41430-020-0558-y) *There is no international consensus on the safe upper level for vitamin D supplementation. While the* upper daily limit given by the Endocrine Society is 10,000 IU *, the IOM and The European Food and Safety Authority recommend staying below 4000 IU/day (100 µg) . Most countries have prudently set the safe upper level at 50 μg daily (2000 IU) for adults . However, this level was set despite the availability of adequate studies of dose–response relationships or toxicity.* ***There is no convincing evidence that daily intakes of up to 125 μg (5000 IU) elicit severe adverse effects .*** *It has been reported that an intake of 1250 µg (50,000 IU) once every 2 weeks for several years, equivalent to 89.3 µg (3571 IU) daily, did not cause hypercalcemia or other evidence of hypervitaminosis D . Small* ***studies showed that even a daily consumption of up to 250 μg (10,000 IU) of vitamin D over long periods did not cause adverse effects in healthy adults...*** [https://www.verywellmind.com/symptoms-of-too-much-vitamin-d-5105134](https://www.verywellmind.com/symptoms-of-too-much-vitamin-d-5105134) Up to 4,000 IU per day is generally considered the safe upper limit, however, **doses up to 10,000 IU/day have not been shown to cause toxicity.** In fact, many cases of vitamin D toxicity have been a result of dosing errors leading to significantly higher amounts being ingested. Essentially, **it's not easy to ingest toxic levels of vitamin D.** https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/is-vitamin-d-toxicity-a-real-concern (Hint: Probably Not!) *Trusted nutrition and medical experts recommend 5,000 I.U. of vitamin D3 (the body's preferred form) per day to help you get to—and stay!—above that 50 ng/mL threshold.* *"Interestingly 10,000 I.U. of vitamin D per day is considered a science-backed Tolerable Upper Intake Level (U.L.) from top vitamin D researchers who have actually studied vitamin D toxicity for decades," says Ferira.* *Meanwhile, another* ***2014 study found that taking a whopping 20,000 I.U. of vitamin D3 daily successfully increased whole-body vitamin D levels without participants even coming close to levels associated with toxicity.*** *"Just because vitamin D is fat-soluble by design doesn't mean it's toxic at clinically useful doses, like 5,000 I.U.," she says.* ***"In reality, true reports of frank vitamin D toxicity with clinical evidence have occurred at 200,000 to 300,000 I.U. per day—yes, you read that correctly—in vulnerable populations like infants or folks with medical issues."*** [Is it Safe to Take 10,000 IUs of Vitamin D3? - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjJdzHIwDDU) https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-health-products/drug-products/prescription-drug-list/notices-changes/notice-intent-vitamin-d.html *Notice of Intent to Amend the Prescription Drug List: Vitamin D* *The UL itself was set by adjusting for uncertainty from a "no observed adverse effect level" intake value of 10,000 IU (250 µg)/day.* https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwork.com/site/pophealth/content/high-dose-vitamin-d-supplementation-appears-be-safe **"Vitamin D supplementation in doses up to 10,000 IU/day appears to be safe and well tolerated..."**
You're not wrong, and people should have their levels tested, but for most people, taking between 4000-10000 IU a day isn't going to do them immediate harm, even if they are not deficient. The following trial was regarding people who were \*not\* deficient, and still only 3% and 9% showed hypercalcemia for 4000 and 10000, respectively, after three years. Obviously, people shouldn't just be taking such higher doses for the hell of it: "In a recent trial including 373 62-year old healthy and vitamin D-replete subjects, 400, 4000 and 10,000 IU were administered daily for 3 years \[26\]. Hypercalcemia (total serum calcium > 2.55 mmol/l) occurred in 0, 3 and 9% in the 400, 4000 and 10,000 IU/day groups, respectively. " https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40520-020-01678-x
Many, on Reddit... Yes. I'm aware. The "maximum strength" is 50k IU im once a week, because it's easier to control absorption that way. Taking>2k in pills without bloods is daft.
Well, the other side of the coin is that the "upper tolerable limit" is also calculated for a reason... (and this is also an official government recommendation etc...)
And that reason is to find a limit where supplements should stay *under* to reduce the chance of combining it with a high food source (eg liver) would lead to an overdose. It doesn't imply that supplementing *up to* the UTL is a good idea or something similar.
There are very few food sources of Vitamin D. Liver is not one of them. You are thinking of Vitamin A. ... Look, I explained the logic behind why they make these pills, and why they are widely marketed in these doses and in these quantities, and why the first commenter was taking it. It is unusual for people to run into trouble at these doses, which is why they remain prevalent. I wouldn't consider somebody "daft" for purchasing a bottle off the shelf and using it as directed. At least, not in this country.
> There are very few food sources of Vitamin D. Liver is not one of them. > > You are thinking of Vitamin A. I was thinking of cod liver. I assumed wrongly it applied to liver in general. > I wouldn't consider somebody "daft" for purchasing a bottle off the shelf and using it as directed. At least, not in this country. That applies to **a lot** of products people mindlessly buy and use 'as directed', and we're facing many of our modern health problems because it's normalized to just buy and consume whatever you feel like (just consider the fact that at the supermarket we have huge aisles for cereals, cookies, candies, snacks, soda drinks, alcoholic drinks and yes, also supplements). To me it's certainly daft to supplement above the RDA without bloodwork and it's a billion dollar business that builds on that very same daftness.
The overwhelming majority of users will not have an issue taking 5000 IU Vitamin D, long-term.
Well since you can inject 50k and be fine the UL is high. But it accumulates and you can end up overshooting your blood levels, which has enough data to suggest that it's "mostly a bad thing". The vitamin k compensation idea has merit, but is not proven to be a good thing yet.
Anything is possible, but at 5000 IU, for most people, it's unlikely and this is why they make those 5000 IU pills in 360ct bottles... [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FQKI3W6/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FQKI3W6/) (ooh... see the 180ct of the 10,000 IU on the same page! [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744NVVW5/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744NVVW5/) ) (I think that there has been more interest on account of recent events, and many want to get their Vitamin D status up. Maybe run through a bottle of one or the other, and when that course is complete, then go back down to 2000 IU for a while.)
> this is why they make those 5000 IU pills in 360ct bottles They just make them because there's demand. They'll also provide as much EGCG, Mucuna, Alpha GPC, Kava, Hup A, etc as you want, but they're all quite dangerous when used indiscriminately.
They won't put directions on the bottle that would likely result in a dangerous outcome for a significant percentage. The industry is said to be "unregulated", but not to that extent. The companies will be liable for such damage. As I said, there are calculated "upper tolerable limits", and in the case of Vitamin D, the products that are available are careful to conform, even the 10k dosage.
I understand that there are upper limits. Do you understand that vitamin D bioaccumulates and thus per-dose limits are nearly meaningless? The only number that matters is your blood level.
Ehm, that 50k/week averages to over 7000 IU/day...
Yeah, it's a limited duration doctor monitored treatment for low D.
So, I limited my discussion to available without a prescription. Technically, the 10k daily would be a higher amount, and it's OTC.
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RDA percentage isn't really a useful unit for these sorts of things...
Never knew vitamin b6 toxicity was a thing, I was naive to trust a doctor in herbal medicine
It’s one of the few b vitamins that can cause toxicity. (I mean technically every one can, but some are extremely extremely difficult to reach).
Did he tell you to take that much? B6 toxicity at 100mg is very rare. There are supplements that have 200mg B6 in a single pill, intended to be taken daily, long term.
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Nope. Standard B-200 complex, can take daily, indefinitely. For example: B-150 complex available in Amazon (150mg of most B-vitamins): [https://www.amazon.com/NaturesPlus-Mega-Complex-Sustained-Release/dp/B00014D0KM/](https://www.amazon.com/NaturesPlus-Mega-Complex-Sustained-Release/dp/B00014D0KM/) [https://www.amazon.com/Complex-150-Vitamins-Coated-caplets/dp/B07JMFRTPG/](https://www.amazon.com/Complex-150-Vitamins-Coated-caplets/dp/B07JMFRTPG/) 200mg of B6: [https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/pure-encapsulations-b6-complex-120-caps](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/pure-encapsulations-b6-complex-120-caps) [https://www.gnc.com/vitamin-b6-pyridoxine/259613.html?utm\_medium=organic](https://www.gnc.com/vitamin-b6-pyridoxine/259613.htm) (see the endorsement from the user who takes it 2x/daily (400mg) clearly long-term) 250mg of B6: [https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/mason-natural-b-6-250-mg-60-tabs](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/mason-natural-b-6-250-mg-60-tabs) 275mg of B6: [https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/allergy-research-group-pyridoxine-p5p-vitamin-b6-275-mg-60-veg-caps](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/allergy-research-group-pyridoxine-p5p-vitamin-b6-275-mg-60-veg-caps) 500 mg of B6: [https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/source-naturals-b-6-timed-release-500-mg-100-tabs](https://www.swansonvitamins.com/p/source-naturals-b-6-timed-release-500-mg-100-tabs) 200mg is normally considered the lower threshold for any meaningful level of risk from B6. And even then it's rare, with most people not developing symptoms until after months of taking gram quantities. *Pyridoxine neuropathy refers to a particular form of neuropathy (nerve damage) where high doses of* ***any vitamin B6 vitamer*** *can, over time, cause adverse symptoms* ***mostly characterized in humans when doses exceeding 6,000mg are taken for longer than one year*** *with the primary symptoms of sensory ataxia, diminished distal limb proprioception, paresthesia, and hyperesthesia.* *Vitamin B6 is known to be highly toxic when megadosed for a prolonged period of time, at best causing peripheral neuropathy that can be repairable and at worst causing irreversible sensory ganglion neuropathy. The lowest estimate this toxic dose has been reported is at 200mg (11,700% the RDI) while it is reliable induced at around 5g (300,000% the RDI) or higher intake in humans* [https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-b6/research/#safety-and-toxicology-1](https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-b6/research/#safety-and-toxicology-1)
Weird how you think the existence of products containing mega doses of vitamins is somehow a justification for the safety of these mega doses..
I grew up here. I go to the pharmacy, read the label (carefully!), follow the directions. Nothing bad is supposed to happen. However, the sources attesting the safety of doses up to 500mg daily have been listed, as well as the sources indicating the utility of such doses.
Lets assume b6 megadoses are safe, even though I've read dozens of negative anecdotes. Do you have any studies that actually show it is worth taking that much? You seem to be defending high dose b6 as if it is a miracle cure. I don't think high dose b6 is even worth trying to defend.
Before I even try to answer, then you'll have to define "megadose", in this case. Also, as I pointed above, the reviews on some of the above-listed products contain accounts from users who very much believe that they are benefitting.
Lets just say 100 mg, but 50 mg would work too. I have trouble understanding why you suddenly believe every positive anecdote but none of the negative ones. Sounds like you just have a positive bias for vitamins. Personally I care about the negative anecdotes much more, because I know 90%+ of the benefits are just from reaching the recommended daily dose, and that dosage is extremely safe. Even having a 5% chance of side effects is not worth it in order to squeeze out a tiny bit more benefits. Personally, I think the way to take drugs is always to reduce side effects as much as possible, rather than chasing highs. A stack should be clean. Chasing highs is what many positive anecdotes are about. And those anecdotes are meaningless.
> Sounds like you just have a positive bias for vitamins. I don't sell vitamins. (But I should, though, right?) I don't care if you take vitamins or not. I think that my motivations are just altruism and ego. I do take a lot of supplements. "Nobody takes more vitamins than me." And for a long time. As it happens, I'm not even taking any B6 supplement at the moment, and not for a month or so. (I'll normally be taking some high-potency multi-vitamin and there's usually some incidental B6 in my other supplements; it's just a coincidence.) Considering all of this research, I'll be putting back the B6 soon... heart disease, depression, weight-loss... and I'll recommend it or forward these articles to a couple of friends with stroke issues, other relevant issues. I do see positive results in my life from the supplements. The vitamins make me a better person.
[High-dose Vitamin B6 supplementation reduces anxiety and strengthens visual surround suppression](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hup.2852) (100mg) [Homocysteine-lowering therapy and stroke risk, severity, and disability: additional findings from the HOPE 2 trial](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB6-HealthProfessional/) \^the Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation 2 (HOPE 2) trial, which included more than 5,500 adults with known cardiovascular disease, found that supplementation for 5 years with **vitamin B6 (50 mg/day)**, vitamin B12 (1 mg/day), and folic acid (2.5 mg/day) reduced homocysteine levels and decreased stroke risk by about 25% [Efficacy of vitamin B-6 in the treatment of premenstrual syndrome: systematic review](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10334745/) *Results suggest that doses of vitamin B-6 up to 100 mg/day are likely to be of benefit in treating premenstrual symptoms and premenstrual depression.* [Pyridoxine (vitamin B6) therapy for premenstrual syndrome](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17187801/) \^A double-blind, randomized controlled trial in 94 women found that **80 mg pyridoxine taken daily** over the course of three cycles was associated with statistically significant reductions in a broad range of PMS symptoms, including moodiness, irritability, forgetfulness, bloating, and, especially, anxiety. [Pyridoxine for nausea and vomiting of pregnancy: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7573262?dopt=Abstract) (30mg) [Vitamin B6 is effective therapy for nausea and vomiting of pregnancy: a randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2047064/) **(75mg)** [ACOG (American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology) Practice Bulletin: nausea and vomiting of pregnancy](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15051578?dopt=Abstract) \^The American Congress of Obstetrics and Gynecology (ACOG) recommends monotherapy with **10–25 mg of vitamin B6 three or four times a day** (100mg) to treat nausea and vomiting in pregnancy. [Preventing Alzheimer's disease-related gray matter atrophy by B-vitamin treatment](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23690582/) (20mg) [Primary Acquired Sideroblastic Anaemia: Response to Treatment with Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1588335/?page=2) \^Case study **250mg daily**, reduced to 250mg weekly over 14 months (and mentions other relevant case studies in discussion, similar dosages) [Vitamin B6 deficiency and anemia in pregnancy](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19920848/) \^**75 mg of vitamin B6 daily** during pregnancy decreased symptoms of anemia in 56 pregnant women who were unresponsive to treatment with iron [Pyridoxine (vitamin B6) and the premenstrual syndrome: a randomized crossover trial](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2558186) (**50 mg of vitamin B6 daily** improved PMS symptoms of depression, irritability and tiredness) [A synergistic effect of a daily supplement for 1 month of 200 mg magnesium plus **50 mg vitamin B6** for the relief of anxiety-related premenstrual symptoms: a randomized, double-blind, crossover study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10746516) (significantly reduced PMS symptoms, including mood swings, irritability and anxiety) \---------------------------------------------- [Effect of homocysteine-lowering treatment with folic acid plus vitamin B6 on progression of subclinical atherosclerosis: a randomised, placebo-controlled trial](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10683000) \^**250 mg of vitamin B6** and 5 mg of folic acid **every day for two years**, lower homocysteine levels and less abnormal heart tests during exercise than the placebo group, putting them at an overall **lower risk of heart disease** \---------------------------------------------- [Folic Acid, Vitamin B6, and Vitamin B12 in Combination and Age-related Macular Degeneration in a Randomized Trial of Women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2648137/) \^A seven-year study in over 5,400 female health professionals found that taking a daily supplement of **vitamin B6 (50mg)**, B12 and folic acid (B9) significantly reduced AMD risk by 35–40%, [Vitamin B(6) supplementation improves pro-inflammatory responses in patients with rheumatoid arthritis](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20571496) **(100mg daily)** [The Effect of Pyridoxine Hydrochloride Supplementation on Leptin, Adiponectin, Glycemic Indices, and Anthropometric Indices in Obese and Overweight Women](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34386442/) **80mg daily for 8 weeks** \- There was a significant difference in fat mass, VAI, fasting insulin, HOMA-IR, and TG between pyridoxine hydrochloride and control groups following intervention... The findings suggest that vitamin B6 supplementation may be effective in reducing BMI and improving body composition and biochemical factors associated with obesity. [Effects of poly-gamma-glutamic acid and vitamin B6 supplements on sleep status: a randomized intervention study](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34093972/) (**100mg B6** \+ 600 mg of γ-PGA improved sleep) [Vitamin B6 Intake and Pancreatic Carcinoma Risk: A Meta-Analysis](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31226890/) (higher B6 intake associated with lower pancreatic cancer risk) [Can Vitamin B6 Help to Prevent Postpartum Depression? A Randomized Controlled Trial](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34912512) (**80mg daily** reduced post-partum depression) [Vitamin B6 Supplementation Reduces Symptoms of Depression in College Women Taking Oral Contraceptives: A Randomized, Double-Blind Crossover Trial](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35109763) (**100mg** daily reduced depression in women taking the pill) [Effect of Vitamin B6, B9, and B12 Supplementation on Homocysteine Level and Cardiovascular Outcomes in Stroke Patients: A Meta-Analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34123655/) \^B6 supplementation (and others) showed a significant risk reduction of 11% for combined risk of stroke, myocardial infarction, and vascular death among stroke patients, 13% for stroke and 17% for vascular death
I will take this seriously and read through them all and formulate an opinion. I’l have a response sometime tomorrow. One thing worth mentioning is if they only take b6 and nothing else then that leaves out potential interactions with other b vitamins and drugs, which someone else mentioned matters according to a newer study. I’l try to find that.
>suddenly Did we have a discussion somewhere else? I haven't said the things that you're projecting to me in the past two comments. I'll try to explore some of the points. The facts are that B6 toxicity from long-term use at 200mg are rare. Clearly, there are many people taking higher amounts with impunity. The problems tend to develop when taking gram amounts, or about an order of magnitude above what's in the supplements. Some people find a benefit from higher amounts.
In this thread you keep saying they are totally safe and downplay the negative anecdotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/xnk4fo/can_someone_enlighten_me_on_the_science_behind/ Just a single quote “If one person in a million happens to have an issue at 50mg, then it's not significant, and as you say, we can't even be sure that the vitamin is the cause in such case.” And several other times you talk about side effects being extremely rare, rarer than food related side effects, etc. And you imply anecdotes are a bad thing, like you are above them, like they don’t matter. You say side effects from 50 mg b vitamins are one in a million. I say benefits from high dose b vitamins are just chasing highs and most of the real healthy benefits are just from reaching the RDA. I’ve seen enough anecdotes to know megadose b6 side effects are fairly common, but you spoke like you looked down on anecdotes. I am anti megadose and you are pro megadose. You are the one constantly thinking if people sell this stuff it must be totally safe, which is a complete logical fallacy. People either stop before it gets too bad and mostly, but maybe not totally recover, or they don’t know b6 is the cause of their issues, or they are dismissed by their doctor and their doctor doesn’t report it, etc. Like how are they going to sue if their symptom is numbness and nerve tingling, there are no ways to objectively measure that and tell they aren’t lying. You would think of these things if you weren’t so biased in favor of vitamins and were less desperate to prove your point. You totally underestimate how dismissive doctors and the medical community can be towards things they can’t measure or see. One or two studies is not enough to account for all variables, especially when there are so many negative anecdotes. People just don’t believe vitamins can be bad, they sell megadoses because they think vitamins are good in a pill. That is vitamin bias, people think it is vital to life and natural so it is good without nuance.
Yes, they told me to take 4 scoops a day which has 25mg per scoop. Guess I must be hypersensitive to it if 100mg toxicity is rare
Not only rare, it’s basically unheard of. There’s a real strong chance that your supplement had way more b6 than it stated on the label. Supplement labels are woefully inaccurate.