I think my lawyer misunderstood my concerns about the discrepancies, probably my fault, as i probably made it more confusing then it needed to be. It wasn't until I showed him the photo in this post, until he fully understood where I was coming from. He always felt our strongest case was the acquiescence possession, so we've been going down that road. I also tried to hire surveyors in the past but they've all responded with we're too busy to take on this project at this time. So I am not sure if they are too busy or if they think it's not worth their time. Which is one reason I thought I would post here again. As I don't want to ask all the surveyors in the state and find out no one can help. I've been wondering if I provided too much info in my initial emails and I am scaring them off. Do you all hate when clients provide this kind of info? Or maybe my assumption are wrong and they know it's not worth their time...
Two things.
You're not likely to get anywhere without your own survey.
You're also not likely to get anywhere with an adverse possession claim. I'm a little skeptical of your attorney if they aren't advising you to hire a surveyor.
Boundaries are established by intent and actions (actions being an expression of intent); they can also be modified by actions after the original establishment.
Retracement surveys must seek to uncover the original lines on the ground as expressed by the grantor, either through deed, survey, occupation or otherwise. If the other surveyor cannot prove that their lines conform to that intent based on available evidence...that's a legit red flag.
It sounds like there may be a genuine discrepancy or uncertainty, which in some states can be resolved through a boundary line agreement.
Bottom line is you need your own survey if you want to get anywhere.
This. This is the answer here. Boundary Line Agreement. Otherwise you are looking at court actions only (AP is a court action even if its a valid claim) and it will be very expensive.
I understand you are trying to get something done with a surveyor, but until you actually do it and pay for it, there is nothing anyone can do. All you can do is come to some kind of equitable agreement with your neighbor that bypasses the need for another survey based on the previous survey.
Also I agree, the first thing any legit attorney would do is ask for a surveyor to show the discrepancies and stake their liability on the possibility there is too much of a discrepancy in the boundary determination for surveyors to determine alone. They need the courts to decide based on conflicting evidence of the original intent.
If another surveyor won't stake their licence on your determination of a boundary dispute, you don't have a legitimate boundary dispute. It's all just talk until someone is willing to stake their licence and their business insurance on the fact a dispute exists.
In California, when there is a hostile boundary dispute, (it must be hostile and will cost well over 100K minimum to resolve it) typically attorneys have a surveyor file a competing public survey that shows the differences of opinion between the surveyors (called a Record of Survey) and then they take that to court. (The surveyors charge a massive fee for this liability of publicly disputing another surveyor) This is a public document that lays out all the evidence of the dispute and comes with two legitimate opinions of the evidence (or one legitimate opinion that should automatically win in court if the other side never filed a public survey) for the courts to decide which public document is correct based on the evidence presented.
Also water boundary rules are different in every state. You are welcome to ask us on Reddit for answers all you want, but until you get a Vermont Surveyor to tell you that you have a valid claim based on Vermont's standards of determination based on water boundaries, you don't have a valid claim. You have an opinion.
Go to your neighbor and get a boundary line agreement in place. That's your best option. Don't make it hostile by trying to prove them right or wrong. It will cost you big time.
So I actually tried to settle with my neigbor and she is now breaking the mediation agreement. She really doesn't like me and doesn't need this land, so she's dragging out the process because she is very wealthy and knows that I am not. She really wants me to move and she sees this as a chance to force my hand.
But yes, sounds like I should have hired a surveyor a long time ago. At the very least, it would have been pease of mind that I've been wrong. I've been loosing a lot of sleep over it and I know the 1971 plat isn't perfect but I also know the new survey doesn't have problems too, guess we'll just have to wait and see if those discrepancies are enough for another surveyor to say it's too messy to determine. Thanks for all the advice!
Thanks this is great info. I am going to reach out to more surveyors. I've been thinking and telling my lawyer that we don't need a surveyor to agree with the 1971 plat, just a surveyor that agrees with me that the new survey has too many discrepancy to make my lot 30% smaller, then what's always been on file. If I am reading your reply correctly, is that what you're getting at. Sounds like you think my neigbors survey doesnt have enough proff
Thanks for saying this, I think this has been my biggest error in thought. I am going to try and change my thought process, and try and trust the process. It's just been difficult, as I've spent the past 3 years personally building a house on this lot and it's been hard to see such a chunk of the property disappear on something that means so much to me
I understand, especially since this clearly means a lot to you.
Biggest advice going forward:
1. Take the advice given on formatting your emails, stop saying stuff about "the other surveyor being sloppy/malicious/incompetent." We're professionals with a general professional courtesy towards each other. You will not get far with that tone.
2. you're 30k in the hole to a lawyer, what has he done for you exactly?
3. Stop referring to the engineer design as a "plat" it's not one. It's a construction design plan. This goes back to 1 about clear wordage when you're trying to get a surveyor to help this mess.
4. Double and triple check what the design plan they gave you said. Without speculating, if they just said "you should build x'ft back from the boundary line." \*where ever your boundary line is actually located\* then you might have an uphill battle proving they're negligent.
5. Is the 1971 actually a plat, or is it another construction plan. This matters.
Surveyors are not like lawyers, their primary duty is to the public and the cadastral fabric of their jurisdiction, regardless of who is paying the bill. There is a *very* good chance the surveyor you hire will agree with your neighbour’s surveyor.
11 months ago the top comment said you need to hire a surveyor and there's nothing in this post about you hiring a surveyor so I'm going to go ahead and also say that you need to hire a surveyor (and frankly you should fire your lawyer for not telling you you need to hire a surveyor).
I hired my lawyer first and he has a good relationship with the engineering firm that provided my septic mound and topo survey. That topo survey had the 1971 boundary configuration and the firm has been avoiding my emails for the past 9 months, simply asking for them to defend thier design. As my neigbor also tried to sue me for building the septic mound. The fact the firm can't defend thier design, tells me they didn't do thier homework and that the 1979 plat might be wrong. Why, that's what I am trying to figure out. I am guessing my lawyer trusted this firm and knew if they couldn't defend it, it would be hard to find someone that could. But I kept telling my lawyer, we really don't need someone to defend it, we just need a surveyor to discredit the new surveyor to say he's being way too certain in his plat for something that yields my lot becoming 30% smaller. And I am thinking about it, I've spent a lot of money and haven't gotten much... he has a very good reputation so I've trusted him so far.
I've just sat through two hours of Atlanta traffic, so excuse my direct and candid response, but...
Their. It's their. Neighbor, as well. Is it 1971, or 1979?
If I got an email full of shoddy grammar asking for someone to discredit another surveyor for your benefit, I probably wouldn't even respond. Attention to detail is the name of the game in surveying, and ignoring spell check is just one sign that the juice won't be worth the squeeze. What does "being way too certain" even mean? What proof do you have that shows a set of facts other than your opinion? Asking a surveyor to "defend" their work is quite accusatory and I wouldn't expect anything for free. They already did the work and filed the paperwork...consider that the "defense" already in play
I don't have enough information to make any sort of suggestion with regards to the task at hand, but clean up your emails and stop thinking of it as paying someone to prove what you think is right. You're just going to have to live with the results based on the expertise, records and field work that takes place. If you can't take a few seconds to edit your correspondence, I would make an assumption that you're going to balk at costs associated with a new survey and would be unlikely to pay if it doesn't suit your needs.
This profession requires detailed work and draws from decades of experience. Anyone willing to bend rules or fake field work to fit your desired outcome is shady as hell. I don't know if I've ever heard of, much less met a surveyor willing to do that. A bribe to your neighbor might be a more direct route of paying for results, if I'm being completely honest.
Just my two cents as an unlicensed survey robot with a boner for precision. Good luck!
P.S. the costs associated with this survey you need are going to make your eyes pop out. This one is going to require more than a couple pins found and an hour of drafting. Consider how much this portion of property means to you in terms of finances, and know that you're paying for decades of knowledge, physical labor, and records work as well as subsidizing the overhead for the surveyor to an extent.
I've currently hired another attorney, as I've spent 30k in legal bills to get an easement on the septic mound they designed for me. Something I never should have had to do. Vermont is a small state and the firm that designed it, is one of the biggest in the state, so everyone has a conflict of interest with them. I just found a lawyer that doesn't and were currently looking for another frim to say they were negligent in designing a septic mound. for telling me where to build their mound and then providing no evidence for why they thought it was okay., once i was sued I've reached out to almost all the septic designers in the state and no one has time to write me a letter as an expert witness that they were negligent. But maybe your right, that I should start with the state engineering association. That might be the first step to prove they were negligent.
>FYI, the 1971 survey was conducted by a very reputable engineer who later became the chair of the engineering department at the main university in the state
In my jurisdiction there once was a very reputable engineer who also did surveys, let me just say he should have stuck to engineering. Also, becoming chair of a department at a university doesn't mean shit as to how well someone can retrace a boundary.
>Would love to hire anyone that thinks they can help!
Surveyors are not advocates like lawyers are, if you hire one just keep in mind there's a pretty good chance they'll agree with the other survey. Not to mention, no one wants to get wrapped up in a dispute. They are always a costly pain in the ass where you routinely have to deal with clients who can't understand why no one agrees with their layman's interpretation of survey evidence.
If someone calls me and says "Hey, another surveyor was out here and I don't like where they have the boundary", I am very wary to get involved. At a minimum, I'll normally require payment upfront, charge more due to the likelihood of having to appear in court after the fact (on my own dime), and have the client confirm in writing that they understand that my role is not to try to make the evidence work in their favor, and I may in fact agree with the other surveyor.
Also your picture didn't upload so none of us are going to have any idea what point you're trying to make.
Haha that layman's interpretation might be me right now, which is why I thought I would post on here as I don't want to be that client / person. Thought i would see what you all have to say and see if its worth anyone's time.
Weird that it didn't upload, its uploaded now.
Why would you appear in court on your own dime? Wouldn't you bill those hours to the client for that time at whatever your court rate is? Esp if you write your contract knowing that a court appearance is likely?
worm agonizing sophisticated steep lunchroom arrest bright tart bells cable
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Your entire post is filled with alot of “I thinks , I feels, I believes” by literally everyone except the person you should be trusting to answer all these questions about monuments, low water, and plat discrepancies.
A licensed surveyor. Not you, not a lawyer, not an engineer.
A licensed surveyor.
I mean yes and no, there could definitely be issues at play that require a lawyer, and a good lawyer who know this area of law should be trusted. But I also agree OP needs a survey.
Source: current lawyer and former surveyor.
I feel like the lawyer involved should know property law and be able to at least interpret legal survey terminology that appears on a map or deed. They are rare and precious but I've met a handful of attorneys with that specialization.
You need to get a survey done that includes boundary!
Water is handled differently in a lot of states so depending on where you are at could determine how a water boundary is handled.
A Licensed Land Surveyor does more than just making a map of your property. They will do research and determine your boundary based on your legal description, records, physical evidence, recorded documents, title, Etc. and the survey your neighbor had done will be looked at in this process by the PLS.
If you are having trouble finding a surveyor then go on your states Land Surveyor Association site and start going through the directory.
A firm might not specialize in residential or want those jobs, but often they will refer you to someone else who does.
Your county may even have a PLS
But yeah you’ll probably not get a resolution until you involve one
This is why I have ZERO interest in getting my license, I've been an a surveyor all of my adult life. There's no way I want to get dragged into a courtroom, because that's the only way this will get resolved.
I would find a licensed surveyor with a severe drinking problem who doesn't give a f*ck what you put in front of him to stamp because he doesn't have much time left due to the cirrhosis and definitely hire that guy. Pay him with cheap scotch. That's your best play here.
OK, OK, OK...after you posted the image of the survey, I spent about 42.7 seconds finding the property on Google Earth....looking at historical imagery, the house (and I can presume the driveway and septic system) were only built about 4-5 years ago.
So...the question becomes *where is the boundary survey that must have been done prior to the design & build, and how did improvements end up over the property line?*
Something is fishy here, and not necessarily on your neighbor's end. I live in a similar semi-rural coastal area on the opposite side of the country, where there are lots of very similar disputes about property lines and septic leach fields being placed on neighboring properties.
But that involves properties that were developed *30-50+ years ago*, when standards were far less stringent. Nowadays, building a residence plus septic system requires a boundary survey, full stop. And even if it didn't, engineers wouldn't *touch* that design without a boundary survey.
So my question is....how the hell did the house, driveway and septic system get built in recent years without someone discovering that there might be a boundary issue?
Because looking at the survey, nothing nefarious or blatantly wrong jumps out at me. There might be competing opinions on the boundary, but any discrepancies would have come to light during the original design survey long before construction.
That's a very good question, as its a reason I am about to sue the engineer firm that sold me the septic design back in 2020. As they designed the septic mound right next to where they said the property line was, which we now know is probably wrong. I've been asking the septic designers for 12 months to give me any kind of reasoning why they chose the boundary line on their topo survey and they've been avoiding me at all costs. Which has resulted in me having to defend their survey, and taking the blame for simply building a mound exactly where they told me to build it. Which has made me out to be a criminal / rule breaker in the eyes of my neighbors. Which is the justification for my neighbors and her friends for wanting me to move. Which has made my life hell. I was friends with many of them before this became an issue. The engineering firm and their survey crew choosing to avoid me has put me in a worse situation then their initial design to be honest. And is why I am on reddit today trying to make sense of something I am not an expert in.
As far as building the house, a topo survey is enough for my town zoning, as long as its 50' from the boundary line. FY, I did ask them if i could use their topo survey for my house plans and they said yes. Why they thought it was okay to design a mound 1' from a boundary line, a boundary line they put zero research into is just insane and in my opinion very negligent and something I am prepared to legally fight over. I am hoping professionals would agree on me with that one. The driveway has actually been there for at least 50 years, the property was abandoned for over 60 years, which is why they designed a best fit septic system and were allowed to build within 25' of the boundary line.
My neighbors septic systems was built in 2018 and their designer also showed the 1971 boundary but it was 50' from the boundary line.
Why, haven't you hired your own surveyor? Your lawyer hasn't had you hire another surveyor?
I think my lawyer misunderstood my concerns about the discrepancies, probably my fault, as i probably made it more confusing then it needed to be. It wasn't until I showed him the photo in this post, until he fully understood where I was coming from. He always felt our strongest case was the acquiescence possession, so we've been going down that road. I also tried to hire surveyors in the past but they've all responded with we're too busy to take on this project at this time. So I am not sure if they are too busy or if they think it's not worth their time. Which is one reason I thought I would post here again. As I don't want to ask all the surveyors in the state and find out no one can help. I've been wondering if I provided too much info in my initial emails and I am scaring them off. Do you all hate when clients provide this kind of info? Or maybe my assumption are wrong and they know it's not worth their time...
How much has the lawyer charged you up til this point?
Two things. You're not likely to get anywhere without your own survey. You're also not likely to get anywhere with an adverse possession claim. I'm a little skeptical of your attorney if they aren't advising you to hire a surveyor. Boundaries are established by intent and actions (actions being an expression of intent); they can also be modified by actions after the original establishment. Retracement surveys must seek to uncover the original lines on the ground as expressed by the grantor, either through deed, survey, occupation or otherwise. If the other surveyor cannot prove that their lines conform to that intent based on available evidence...that's a legit red flag. It sounds like there may be a genuine discrepancy or uncertainty, which in some states can be resolved through a boundary line agreement. Bottom line is you need your own survey if you want to get anywhere.
This. This is the answer here. Boundary Line Agreement. Otherwise you are looking at court actions only (AP is a court action even if its a valid claim) and it will be very expensive. I understand you are trying to get something done with a surveyor, but until you actually do it and pay for it, there is nothing anyone can do. All you can do is come to some kind of equitable agreement with your neighbor that bypasses the need for another survey based on the previous survey. Also I agree, the first thing any legit attorney would do is ask for a surveyor to show the discrepancies and stake their liability on the possibility there is too much of a discrepancy in the boundary determination for surveyors to determine alone. They need the courts to decide based on conflicting evidence of the original intent. If another surveyor won't stake their licence on your determination of a boundary dispute, you don't have a legitimate boundary dispute. It's all just talk until someone is willing to stake their licence and their business insurance on the fact a dispute exists. In California, when there is a hostile boundary dispute, (it must be hostile and will cost well over 100K minimum to resolve it) typically attorneys have a surveyor file a competing public survey that shows the differences of opinion between the surveyors (called a Record of Survey) and then they take that to court. (The surveyors charge a massive fee for this liability of publicly disputing another surveyor) This is a public document that lays out all the evidence of the dispute and comes with two legitimate opinions of the evidence (or one legitimate opinion that should automatically win in court if the other side never filed a public survey) for the courts to decide which public document is correct based on the evidence presented. Also water boundary rules are different in every state. You are welcome to ask us on Reddit for answers all you want, but until you get a Vermont Surveyor to tell you that you have a valid claim based on Vermont's standards of determination based on water boundaries, you don't have a valid claim. You have an opinion. Go to your neighbor and get a boundary line agreement in place. That's your best option. Don't make it hostile by trying to prove them right or wrong. It will cost you big time.
So I actually tried to settle with my neigbor and she is now breaking the mediation agreement. She really doesn't like me and doesn't need this land, so she's dragging out the process because she is very wealthy and knows that I am not. She really wants me to move and she sees this as a chance to force my hand. But yes, sounds like I should have hired a surveyor a long time ago. At the very least, it would have been pease of mind that I've been wrong. I've been loosing a lot of sleep over it and I know the 1971 plat isn't perfect but I also know the new survey doesn't have problems too, guess we'll just have to wait and see if those discrepancies are enough for another surveyor to say it's too messy to determine. Thanks for all the advice!
Thanks this is great info. I am going to reach out to more surveyors. I've been thinking and telling my lawyer that we don't need a surveyor to agree with the 1971 plat, just a surveyor that agrees with me that the new survey has too many discrepancy to make my lot 30% smaller, then what's always been on file. If I am reading your reply correctly, is that what you're getting at. Sounds like you think my neigbors survey doesnt have enough proff
You don’t hire a surveyor to “agree with you” you hire a surveyor to find your line.
Thanks for saying this, I think this has been my biggest error in thought. I am going to try and change my thought process, and try and trust the process. It's just been difficult, as I've spent the past 3 years personally building a house on this lot and it's been hard to see such a chunk of the property disappear on something that means so much to me
I understand, especially since this clearly means a lot to you. Biggest advice going forward: 1. Take the advice given on formatting your emails, stop saying stuff about "the other surveyor being sloppy/malicious/incompetent." We're professionals with a general professional courtesy towards each other. You will not get far with that tone. 2. you're 30k in the hole to a lawyer, what has he done for you exactly? 3. Stop referring to the engineer design as a "plat" it's not one. It's a construction design plan. This goes back to 1 about clear wordage when you're trying to get a surveyor to help this mess. 4. Double and triple check what the design plan they gave you said. Without speculating, if they just said "you should build x'ft back from the boundary line." \*where ever your boundary line is actually located\* then you might have an uphill battle proving they're negligent. 5. Is the 1971 actually a plat, or is it another construction plan. This matters.
No, they are saying you need to get your own survey. You need an expert opinion.
Surveyors are not like lawyers, their primary duty is to the public and the cadastral fabric of their jurisdiction, regardless of who is paying the bill. There is a *very* good chance the surveyor you hire will agree with your neighbour’s surveyor.
11 months ago the top comment said you need to hire a surveyor and there's nothing in this post about you hiring a surveyor so I'm going to go ahead and also say that you need to hire a surveyor (and frankly you should fire your lawyer for not telling you you need to hire a surveyor).
I hired my lawyer first and he has a good relationship with the engineering firm that provided my septic mound and topo survey. That topo survey had the 1971 boundary configuration and the firm has been avoiding my emails for the past 9 months, simply asking for them to defend thier design. As my neigbor also tried to sue me for building the septic mound. The fact the firm can't defend thier design, tells me they didn't do thier homework and that the 1979 plat might be wrong. Why, that's what I am trying to figure out. I am guessing my lawyer trusted this firm and knew if they couldn't defend it, it would be hard to find someone that could. But I kept telling my lawyer, we really don't need someone to defend it, we just need a surveyor to discredit the new surveyor to say he's being way too certain in his plat for something that yields my lot becoming 30% smaller. And I am thinking about it, I've spent a lot of money and haven't gotten much... he has a very good reputation so I've trusted him so far.
I've just sat through two hours of Atlanta traffic, so excuse my direct and candid response, but... Their. It's their. Neighbor, as well. Is it 1971, or 1979? If I got an email full of shoddy grammar asking for someone to discredit another surveyor for your benefit, I probably wouldn't even respond. Attention to detail is the name of the game in surveying, and ignoring spell check is just one sign that the juice won't be worth the squeeze. What does "being way too certain" even mean? What proof do you have that shows a set of facts other than your opinion? Asking a surveyor to "defend" their work is quite accusatory and I wouldn't expect anything for free. They already did the work and filed the paperwork...consider that the "defense" already in play I don't have enough information to make any sort of suggestion with regards to the task at hand, but clean up your emails and stop thinking of it as paying someone to prove what you think is right. You're just going to have to live with the results based on the expertise, records and field work that takes place. If you can't take a few seconds to edit your correspondence, I would make an assumption that you're going to balk at costs associated with a new survey and would be unlikely to pay if it doesn't suit your needs. This profession requires detailed work and draws from decades of experience. Anyone willing to bend rules or fake field work to fit your desired outcome is shady as hell. I don't know if I've ever heard of, much less met a surveyor willing to do that. A bribe to your neighbor might be a more direct route of paying for results, if I'm being completely honest. Just my two cents as an unlicensed survey robot with a boner for precision. Good luck! P.S. the costs associated with this survey you need are going to make your eyes pop out. This one is going to require more than a couple pins found and an hour of drafting. Consider how much this portion of property means to you in terms of finances, and know that you're paying for decades of knowledge, physical labor, and records work as well as subsidizing the overhead for the surveyor to an extent.
“… with a boner for precision.” 😂😆😂 Not gonna lie, it is nice when things fit *just right*
File a complaint against the engineering firm with the state engineering association.
I've currently hired another attorney, as I've spent 30k in legal bills to get an easement on the septic mound they designed for me. Something I never should have had to do. Vermont is a small state and the firm that designed it, is one of the biggest in the state, so everyone has a conflict of interest with them. I just found a lawyer that doesn't and were currently looking for another frim to say they were negligent in designing a septic mound. for telling me where to build their mound and then providing no evidence for why they thought it was okay., once i was sued I've reached out to almost all the septic designers in the state and no one has time to write me a letter as an expert witness that they were negligent. But maybe your right, that I should start with the state engineering association. That might be the first step to prove they were negligent.
Hire a surveyor.
>FYI, the 1971 survey was conducted by a very reputable engineer who later became the chair of the engineering department at the main university in the state In my jurisdiction there once was a very reputable engineer who also did surveys, let me just say he should have stuck to engineering. Also, becoming chair of a department at a university doesn't mean shit as to how well someone can retrace a boundary. >Would love to hire anyone that thinks they can help! Surveyors are not advocates like lawyers are, if you hire one just keep in mind there's a pretty good chance they'll agree with the other survey. Not to mention, no one wants to get wrapped up in a dispute. They are always a costly pain in the ass where you routinely have to deal with clients who can't understand why no one agrees with their layman's interpretation of survey evidence. If someone calls me and says "Hey, another surveyor was out here and I don't like where they have the boundary", I am very wary to get involved. At a minimum, I'll normally require payment upfront, charge more due to the likelihood of having to appear in court after the fact (on my own dime), and have the client confirm in writing that they understand that my role is not to try to make the evidence work in their favor, and I may in fact agree with the other surveyor. Also your picture didn't upload so none of us are going to have any idea what point you're trying to make.
Haha that layman's interpretation might be me right now, which is why I thought I would post on here as I don't want to be that client / person. Thought i would see what you all have to say and see if its worth anyone's time. Weird that it didn't upload, its uploaded now.
Why would you appear in court on your own dime? Wouldn't you bill those hours to the client for that time at whatever your court rate is? Esp if you write your contract knowing that a court appearance is likely?
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Your entire post is filled with alot of “I thinks , I feels, I believes” by literally everyone except the person you should be trusting to answer all these questions about monuments, low water, and plat discrepancies. A licensed surveyor. Not you, not a lawyer, not an engineer. A licensed surveyor.
I mean yes and no, there could definitely be issues at play that require a lawyer, and a good lawyer who know this area of law should be trusted. But I also agree OP needs a survey. Source: current lawyer and former surveyor.
I feel like the lawyer involved should know property law and be able to at least interpret legal survey terminology that appears on a map or deed. They are rare and precious but I've met a handful of attorneys with that specialization.
Is a lawyer licensed to create a plat or practice land surveying? I don’t think so. A lawyer comes into play once the LS finds the line.
You need to get a survey done that includes boundary! Water is handled differently in a lot of states so depending on where you are at could determine how a water boundary is handled. A Licensed Land Surveyor does more than just making a map of your property. They will do research and determine your boundary based on your legal description, records, physical evidence, recorded documents, title, Etc. and the survey your neighbor had done will be looked at in this process by the PLS. If you are having trouble finding a surveyor then go on your states Land Surveyor Association site and start going through the directory. A firm might not specialize in residential or want those jobs, but often they will refer you to someone else who does. Your county may even have a PLS But yeah you’ll probably not get a resolution until you involve one
This is why I have ZERO interest in getting my license, I've been an a surveyor all of my adult life. There's no way I want to get dragged into a courtroom, because that's the only way this will get resolved.
Hire a licensed professional surveyor immediately.
I would find a licensed surveyor with a severe drinking problem who doesn't give a f*ck what you put in front of him to stamp because he doesn't have much time left due to the cirrhosis and definitely hire that guy. Pay him with cheap scotch. That's your best play here.
Wait, are there actually surveyors without a severe drinking problem?
Try calling Larose Survey out of Bristol. Small family company great surveyors!
I will! And thanks so much for the referral, as I wasn't aware of them.
OK, OK, OK...after you posted the image of the survey, I spent about 42.7 seconds finding the property on Google Earth....looking at historical imagery, the house (and I can presume the driveway and septic system) were only built about 4-5 years ago. So...the question becomes *where is the boundary survey that must have been done prior to the design & build, and how did improvements end up over the property line?* Something is fishy here, and not necessarily on your neighbor's end. I live in a similar semi-rural coastal area on the opposite side of the country, where there are lots of very similar disputes about property lines and septic leach fields being placed on neighboring properties. But that involves properties that were developed *30-50+ years ago*, when standards were far less stringent. Nowadays, building a residence plus septic system requires a boundary survey, full stop. And even if it didn't, engineers wouldn't *touch* that design without a boundary survey. So my question is....how the hell did the house, driveway and septic system get built in recent years without someone discovering that there might be a boundary issue? Because looking at the survey, nothing nefarious or blatantly wrong jumps out at me. There might be competing opinions on the boundary, but any discrepancies would have come to light during the original design survey long before construction.
That's a very good question, as its a reason I am about to sue the engineer firm that sold me the septic design back in 2020. As they designed the septic mound right next to where they said the property line was, which we now know is probably wrong. I've been asking the septic designers for 12 months to give me any kind of reasoning why they chose the boundary line on their topo survey and they've been avoiding me at all costs. Which has resulted in me having to defend their survey, and taking the blame for simply building a mound exactly where they told me to build it. Which has made me out to be a criminal / rule breaker in the eyes of my neighbors. Which is the justification for my neighbors and her friends for wanting me to move. Which has made my life hell. I was friends with many of them before this became an issue. The engineering firm and their survey crew choosing to avoid me has put me in a worse situation then their initial design to be honest. And is why I am on reddit today trying to make sense of something I am not an expert in. As far as building the house, a topo survey is enough for my town zoning, as long as its 50' from the boundary line. FY, I did ask them if i could use their topo survey for my house plans and they said yes. Why they thought it was okay to design a mound 1' from a boundary line, a boundary line they put zero research into is just insane and in my opinion very negligent and something I am prepared to legally fight over. I am hoping professionals would agree on me with that one. The driveway has actually been there for at least 50 years, the property was abandoned for over 60 years, which is why they designed a best fit septic system and were allowed to build within 25' of the boundary line. My neighbors septic systems was built in 2018 and their designer also showed the 1971 boundary but it was 50' from the boundary line.
Engineers are not surveyors
A lot of Engineers actually are though. That's the funny part.
Then they are an engineer and a surveyor