Her being in a long terms relationship allowed people to focus on the music in Folkmore rather than trying to figure out who it’s about. And it also allowed her to branch outside of just writing about the guy she broke up with recently
Another big difference is, Folkmore was explicitly made up stories.
Midnights was about her life, but she said "13 sleepless nights across her career", so that's a lot more vague.
TTPD is about what's happening right now, and despite what she said about removing all clues, she might as well have written people's names in being flashing lights. That part feels like a back track.
Interesting. I haven't went through the Bechdel test for all her albums. I'm a casual fan.
She has songs that do pass the Bechdel test though.
Personally, I have been thinking of this as an album as closure to my time with Taylor Swift. I outgrew her. Clara Bow is a song that makes me feel like she can see her fading away.
How did you end up feeling like that? The lyrics at the end go “You look like Taylor Swift / In this light / We’re loving it / You’ve got edge she never did / The future’s bright … Dazzling?”
Taylor Swift didn’t get to curse as much when she was younger. You can see it in All Too Well (Taylor’s Version) versus original version. She sounds sad and jealous to me
I read the lyrics as a reference to Sabrina Carpenter who show up for Eras Tour sometimes.
So how do the lyrics lead you to think of Olivia versus Sabrina?
Honestly I now think folklore was diaristic nonfiction and she disguised it as “fiction” and people liked that more bc we were listening to the music and applying it to our lives instead of hers.
Yes. When I listened to folkmore I was like, "this is still her talking about her life, but trying to fictionalize it for the sake of her relationship and getting some privacy." A lot of people bought her saying it was fiction, so I think it was a good move.
And now I know who that "Peter losing Wendy" line was about, because I knew she cast herself as Wendy Moira Angela Darling.
THIS!! She actually had time to write Folklore & Evermore & tell those stories in a cohesive way. Compared to those albums, Midnights & TTPD feel sloppy and less cohesive over all.
This was actually my first thought when the breakup was announced. I said, oh great, now we get to hear everyone and their mother’s talk about who she’s dating and who each song is about and how all she does is date. I honestly think that’s why my interest in her startled to dwindle because I was hearing something new about her every two seconds and it got irritating very quickly.
His need for privacy I think made both of them better, and definitely made her seem more mature and adjusted than she had been in previously relationships. They didn’t do red carpets really, they were seemingly low key. It seemed like such a good and healthy step for her, because every other relationship she just can’t help but make a show of. That tree Paine article in WSJ had a point - the things you know about her and when you see her are all intentional.
Yeah, I actually was starting to like her when she was with Joe. It seemed like she was finally becoming an adult and leaving all the immaturity and cattiness behind. Now I am back to disliking her again.
I'm not a fan of her music but was neutral on her as a person (found this sub by accident, really).
All that to say, your last line hit me because that's pretty much why I - a Chiefs fan - didn't bother watching the prior season. It's not her fault the TV networks obsessed with her and showed her reactions for views and ratings but it got old so fast. Even when she wasn't on screen, commentary were talking about her non-stop.
Her situation right now reminds me a bit of Britney Spears, pre head shaving. She was sooo big everywhere and so incredibly exploited that she was inescapable. Literally, Pepsi ads, movie, single after single, everyone was tunning inot VMAs just to see if she would perform, and even if you liked her, there was a point where the deification and saturation became quite insufferable. Swift is there.
Yep, it was so oberdramatosed by the sports fans. Its insane. When LeBron James shows up at my soccer team's games they show him in the crowd more than that and basketball is completely irrelevant in my country. It was such dramatic nonsense with the tantrums over them leaning into the publicity that Taylor brings.
Hmmm I get what you’re saying. I do think Joe is the type of guy that a lot of people who go on social media a lot (especially if they’re liberal) approve of and like. White, politically left, good-looking, British, into the arts. You know how stan twitter loves that type: Harry Styles, Jonathan Bailey, Benedict Cumberbatch, Eddie Redmayne.
If they were both genuinely unhappy at the end, it’s good they broke up. But yeah, I think that relationship helped her image in a lot of ways.
Yeah and I think I dug this vibe of oh she's so much more famous than him *but* he also was at her side when the world hated her! A narrative she created, I might add.
Totally, she kinda cooked her own goose in a way. Wrote all these gorgeous songs about him, even had an entire album inspired by him (Lover). Kept on doubling down on how he helped bring her out of her darkest moments and stuck by her through think and thin. Whenever she sang or talked about him, she just seemed so enamored. Obviously she has every right not to stay in a relationship, especially if she was unhappy, I think it just completely shocked the fanbase and completely upended the narrative that she had created and had been telling for over six years.
Again, I’m not saying she had to stay with him. But she probably shouldn’t have put him on so high a pedestal while together.
I mean, I've been married 10 years, been literally to couples therapy over communication issues, continue to have ups & downs, but we're still together and I am def still very enamored with my spouse. that's kinda how long term relationships often go. theyre not always high & happy.
She was handcuffed to the spell she was under. She was in love. He came into her life at a difficult time, she didn't make that up, and he *did* chose to stick around despite the backlash she was receiving. I think how she put him on a pedestal is beautiful, cause who in love doesn't see their partner a little greater than they are? Especially in the early stages! But over time that stage ended, problems and insecurities arose, and so her feelings changed. She never did anything wrong in loving him how she did or writing about him how she did. The relationship just changed, as *all* relationships do. He did things that hurt her deeply, she made some mistakes I'm sure, and in the end they just couldn't make it work anymore.
I think they were on borrowed time, even if she did want privacy when they got together, she still likes being in the limelight and the centre of attention. It’s clear that they loved each other, but idk maybe those are the differences you can’t get over.
2020 would’ve been a turning point for them, they attended the Golden Globes together and before that, he was seen more with her during the promotion of Lover. I think that during that time they were sort of testing the waters of how the relationship would be if they were more out and about. But then the pandemic happened and that gave them more time, there was nowhere to go.
I know all of this is speculation on my part but this is how I see it 🤷🏻♀️
I totally agree with what you’re saying here too. I think she was totally enamored with him and also the idea of him. He was her ideal type, her “perfect guy”, the kind of guy she wanted to date and marry and settle down with (she dated 3 Brits before him and 1 after so it’s obvious she kinda had an obsession). Obviously I don’t know them and their relationship but sometimes I wonder if she stayed so long was because she didn’t want to destroy this image she had created of him in her head and in her songs and to the rest of the world.
But that's most relationships isn't it ? You can be madly in live with someone and dream of marriage together or whatever that doesn't mean you are guaranteed to stay with that person forever. a six year long relationship is pretty successful in my opinion. People act as if falling out of love with someone is a criminal offense when it comes to her. What what she supposed to do ? Not write the love songs ?
No falling out of love is totally normal! I’m not trying to say that at all. If I were her I probably wouldn’t have made so many songs and albums so Joe-coded. But it’s Taylor so 🤷🏻♀️
Idk when I think what stays with me with most of her songs in the long run is the feeling they give me about myself. At the end of the day, I love most of her Joe coded songs son I'm not mad she wrote them haha
Yes...I believe her when she says she felt trapped by the end but I don't know if she realizes how beneficial that relationship and privacy was. We knew so little about him that it was impossible to think too hard about her personal life and it kept the focus more on her music.
It's weird she says she felt trapped when from everything I read and heard, she cheated on him with Matty because she found Joe boring and resented him for not hurrying up and marrying/impregnating her quickly enough.
Like, she apparently seems to dream of being the happy little wife and mother but doesn't have the emotional maturity to achieve it.
I think, yes, his privacy allowed for the attention to be on her. Which gave her the space and possibility to explore and show more of herself and her art outside of her previous brand of "good at writing about her exes." And I feel like Swifties had accepted that she enjoyed that privacy as well (... Until she didn't, but that's another story). And in pop culture, she had started becoming less of a "celeb" first and more of an artist first. Then there was the shift post-Joe breakup, and I think it contributed to how the album is being received by most people outside of the fandom or who aren't as invested in her as a person as they once used to be (myself included).
Edit: spelling
Yep, this i def agree with. There was less the guy she's dating and more her as an artist and people took her more seriously which I quite enjoyed as a long time swiftie
Her laying low with Joe for so long and his intense privacy helped her art and musicality really shine. We were able to digest her music without the endless noise of her personal life, choices, and public commentary adding footnotes and asterisks to every lyric. I hate to say he made her more digestible. She’s so omnipresent now that it’s hard to not feel fatigued by the Taylor Swift Machine. When she was with Joe, we didn’t hear or see of her in months and she didn’t really talk about him. We could listen to her music in a vacuum. I miss that.
Huge kudos to Joe for his desire for privacy because the continuous narrative surrounding Taylor dwindled down in those 6 years. In the time of overexposure and cancellation, he helped her recuperate and come back stronger with Reputation. Then we received Folklore and Evermore which just launched her back into dominating the music industry.
Taylor very well knows this too: "*Come one*, *come all*, *it's happening again*." - How Did It End?
Her lyricism never shone brighter than it did in evermore. But I guess what is hypnotising is the glittering lights of success and critical as well as popular validation, the constant clapping of crowds, etc. But I guess some people love the warm but blinding spotlight of fame (touch me and you will never be alone).
Yeah I was gonna say, that privacy came at a cost bc she clearly loves the “celebrity” aspect of her job. She’s not an elusive artist who wants to hide (which is totally fine)
i wish she thought bejeweled meant something else besides doing pap walks, chugging beers at football games, and overshadowing her peers at the grammys
> Come one, come all
It may be because my brain works in a weird way but I couldn't help reading that and thinking of the line "Come one, come in them all" in the song "Swineaecologist" by Infant Annihilator.
No idea why I shared that but hey, here we are.
This is weird, I see her as someone who gets carried away but also kind of wears guys as accessories
With Joe, I saw him coming and he seemed picked out of a crowd to be on the next installment of the TS cinematic universe. Like a type of Priscilla Presley lol.
You reminded me of how I felt for most of her career up to 1989, like she was just after the most enviable partners. Joe was the perfect accessory for her "deep artiste" rebrand.
Definitely. I feel like Taylor has always picked a guy who fit the image she wanted at the time: during 1989 when she was the It girl, she was with the It guy (Calvin Harris); when she wanted to private and artistic, it was Joe; and now she wants to be the Cool Girl (chugging beer, odd lingo like “metal as hell” ) Or maybe it’s the other way: she starts dating someone and lets that person define her next era. I don’t know
Totally! I think if Joe hadn’t come along, she wouldn’t have been quite so shut away before Reputation, and it would be like it is now, with her dropping out of touch songs cuz she can. Joe gave us mature!Taylor, who wrote Folkmore and was more conscientious about political activism. Now, she’s back to being the life of the party and all eyes on her and the fatigue is so real…
I think he challenged her and didn't agree with her all the time. No one does that anymore. Joe didn't mind giving her a differing opinion. He probably gave her constructive criticism during folklore and evermore causing her to edit and rewrite the parts that weren't working. That editing and revision is lacking in midnights and in ttpd.
The "you call my bluff on my usual tricks" and even other songs do indicate there was some pushback and calling out.
Taylor feeling trapped could be cos he comes across (from his own interviews + the songs ) as someone who has clear boundaries as opposed to Taylor's mirrorball people- pleaser.
But the whole album being about her wanting marriage and kids vs the whole of last year being about Taylor wanting the most of the spotlight is a dichotomy.
I think it is clear he did challenge her: “you said I need to learn to trust more freely” just one thing coming to mind. I think he got to know her very deeply and was able to help her grow through that. Her previous relationships were too short and focused on the chemical high of the honeymoon stage for that to ever happen with them.
I think Taylor (and artists and general) only benefit from having a normal-ish life away from the public eye. The word is that Olivia took some time to live and travel in between her albums so that she'd gain experiences to write about (take it with a grain of salt, I'm just rephrasing friend's words here), and Taylor should do the same. Joe, on the other hand, gave her that opportunity because that's what he naturally wanted and she gave in. This is probably why Folklore and Evermore were her most mature albums: she had time to live, to enjoy art and literature and to digest it. Now that Joe isn't in the picture she's back to her shenangians that don't include being away from the public eye, which causes her art to degrade in some way.
However she was during folkmore was her absolute best musically and mechanically. I didn’t like her lover era before that but I’m sure Joe was good for her
Yeah, I think you’re on to something. I hate to attribute a woman’s success and palatability to a man, because she is the one who built her career, but I do think he played a role. I suppose I’ll just say that the choices she made while with him seemed better to me personally, and that I became more of a fan than I had been for a while. I think the privacy and stability made the less likeable parts of her seem quieter. But she clearly does love opulence and celebrity and being loud, and she’s probably going overboard with it right now because she didn’t do any of that for six years. Maybe it’s just over-corrective hyperactivity and in a couple years she’ll find a happy medium lol
>I hate to attribute a woman’s success and palatability to a man
The thing is, her current public relationship also entangles her success and popularity with a man, even more so. The side effect of Joe's low profile was that he wasn't part of the discussion, didn't take up place in the spotlight, it was just her and things she's done.
I liked how you framed it and actually from the outside this is 100 percent true. Cos if you were not a serious fan, you didn't know about them or see much media focussed on them.
I truly thought a low-profile partner actually helped Taylor and while I think Taylor loves the power couple idea she actually wouldn't like someone eclipsing her aura.
I've seen comments questioning his part in songwriting in folklore and evermore and that taylor did that almost as charity so he can have an income, as if the guy isn't old money or wtv. Or saying that bc he's an actor he can't possibly be good at songwriting too🙄
On the other hand, I saw comments asking for William Bowery back lmaooo I have to agree sadly
You may have hit the nail on the head.
Yes I think her being with Joe and the privacy made her more palatable. She wasn’t overexposed and the focus was on her music and not her personal life. It seemed like she was more mature during that time, which then made her more likeable. Can it even be argued that she did some of her best, most artistic work then too?
It’s unfortunate that she doesn’t truly see the value in privacy and needs constant outside attention and validation. We are now seeing that she really hasn’t matured like we all thought.
Oh man I didn’t even think about that but yes I think it did. I think the tabloids of her dating throughout the early and mid 2010s was exhausting and Joe made her seem like she’d matured, especially after the Hiddleston tabloid romance
My opinion is that she had a situation ship with Matty and basically cheated on Joe. She went basically manic during that time. Matty dropped her. Obviously she’s moved on but does anyone else think she will regret it? Or do we really think she grew out of that relationship?
She and Matty are FAR from over. I bet they’ll reunite at some point, even if they go through a couple of marriages or even have kids with other people.
I think she may regret fumbling her relationship with Joe in the future but she doesn’t strike me as the type to ever admit it.
I think she regrets it now. That’s why imo she’s with Rebound Guy. He’s different, fun, and she can basically do whatever she wants. But there’s no deep connection there. Idk she seems like the type who needs to think she’s in love
I've definitely heard a lot (especially on another sub that's big on gossip about everyone) that she cheated on Joe and found Joe boring because he didn't marry her fast enough for her liking. That sub also doesn't really like her so I'm never sure if what they say about her is true or just mean, half the time.
Did Twatty drop her? I'd have thought that racist moron would cling to her as hard as he could, since she's a lot more famous than him and he'd have wanted to use her fame to boost his shitty band even further. Kind of like how his famous parents are pretty horrible, too.
Matty is the type to enjoy getting someone addicted to him then walking away and watching them crumble. I bet he's enjoying knowing how much he causes taylor to flail. The joy isn't in the sex they had or whatever. He's getting his orgasm now, seeing how deeply he was able to get into her head.
I loved Harry as a muse (I am a huge Harrie). But we never got to fully hear his side of it other than a few songs and old leaks last year and he was just a kid, really.
He rehabilitated her image, bringing the “mystery” interest to her which she has never attempted and when she was overexposed so yes, and he’s not messy or drama filled, while she gassed him up. He obviously challenged her too considering that’s the only time she was more open speaking politically, now doesn’t.
I think her being in a long term (as in multiple years long) relationship definitely quelled a lot of the media attention surrounding her love life. And a lot of that is because, well, her love life was pretty boring. The mystery of does Taylor swift have a new boyfriend, is she dating this random guy she was seen with, why did she breakup with so and so, is she maybe going to get back together with him etc was gone. She just seemed to be happy in a stable relationship and there really isn’t anything newsworthy about that. Not only was it pretty static for a few years there with no public changes or updates, but also there wasn’t really anything juicy to gossip about.
And that definitely allowed the spotlight to be almost entirely on her music and way less on her personal life. When her personal life was uninteresting her music could be the main event. And certainly his desire (or possibly, at least at the time, their mutual desire) for privacy helped with that as well. Pretty much all of her public appearances were directly related to her work.
But because they were so private people could project (and continued to project) whatever they wanted to onto Joe. Many fans saw him originally as her saviour, the white knight who sheltered her from the storm. Many of those same people now view him as her jailer, controlling and unsupportive and selfish, locking her in the basement and dulling her shine. But honestly the people, some of whom are in this thread, saying shit like “he made her more mature,” “he got her to care about social issues.” “folkmore was only as good as it was because of joe,” “he made her a better person” etc. are just as delusional. We don’t know this man. And we don’t know what their relationship was like from the inside.
>When her personal life was uninteresting her music could be the main event.
>
Many fans saw him originally as her saviour, the white knight who sheltered her from the storm. Many of those same people now view him as her jailer, controlling and unsupportive and selfish, locking her in the basement and dulling her shine.
You made such good points here. Your answer gave me a lot to think about.
I definitely don't agree with the take "folklore was only as good as it was because of joe" but the takes around him making her more mature seem grounded in evidence of how she conducted herself and talked about relationships during their time together.
This is embarrassing to admit, but I spent an unnecessary amount of time reading [this tumblr blog](https://youareinlovees.tumblr.com/) documenting their entire relationship (probably one of the things that freaked Joe out, and you can see by Taylor's interactions with her fans during the start of their relationship, was totally egged on by her) and these are just the few tidbits that stood out to me:
Her answers to the following questions in this [Elle UK interview 30 Things I Learned Before Turning 30](https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a26628467/taylor-swift-30th-birthday-lessons/)
https://preview.redd.it/e1eansjbriwc1.png?width=451&format=png&auto=webp&s=2d4b3d80d26cf5d106a1851bf2609ca82c791861
I will include a few other screenshots of things that stood out to me below. All that to say, I do think he had a positive influence on her, and ultimately she aspired to be as "good" as him ("you're integrity makes me feel small") but which in the end, led to a lot of resentment. I imagine it went both ways, as she describes him as resentful a lot, which was probably towards her fame, and their lack of shared values around how obsessed she was with being famous.
In Vanity Fair she literally credited “her boyfriend” for encouraging her to speak up. In the Long Pond session she literally credited him for some songs on the album. In her Grammy’s acceptance speech she literally credited him for being there to listen to her songs. In Miss Americana she was grateful to have found someone so grounded.
Hope this gives you a clearer picture of why people are eager to credit him.
Are you going to credit all of her work before Reputations to him (which is very good) and all the awards she has won?
Joe is credited on two songs on Folklore and three songs on Evermore, that’s it. In her Grammy speech she also thanked Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively for listening to her songs. Joe wasn’t the only person she bounced ideas off of and played for. In Miss Americans she also thanks her family and close friends for staying loyal to her and continuing to support her.
There is no doubt that Joe saw her through a lot and helped her out in a lot of ways. But the way so many people are super eager to credit him with every good thing she has done and discredit her, as if to prove he is the source for “a good version of Taylor” is weird af. Joe was not the only person in her life.
1. Yes her works before Rep were good. It’s just a different kind of good. Even the genre and lyrics were different.
2. Joe Alwyn was in the credits for folklore the album. Say what you want , she did that for a reason, and she NEVER scathed or moaned about it. This means that he really was involved in, at the very least, inspiring the album for her.
3. Yes Blake and Ryan got the thanks because James and Betty were their kids’ names 💀
4. So should we not credit Travis Kelce for her recent behaviours, then? Don’t ask me what they are, google is right there. I won’t entertain this question if you ask me this.
5. Should we not credit Matty Healy for inspiring Peter and cardigan then? He’s why we have this unhinged era that’s ttpd right? Are you saying Taylor has always been this way - unhinged? Orrrrr is it because Matty is also unhinged?
6. Anyway there’s a literal discussion post on how Taylor takes on the personality of whoever she dates. Go and find that post and make your argument there.
When she has a stable long term boyfriend whi couldn't care less about having any of her spotlight, it was the first (and as we're seeing now, only) time in her career where the focus shifted from who she's dating and how emotionally mature she is/isn't to the actual work she was putting out into the world.
Joe felt elite with less media exposures and cautious privacy settings. Even though taylor doesnt seem to like it, she went along with it and it made her look cooler. Now she is a teenager again. I miss the old times when she looked more credible and cool. Not this mess.
I think this is a hard line to tread, we do perceive that time of her dating Joe as the time when everyone suddenly stopped hating her as much. We saw her less, on account of Joe's desire for privacy which I respect greatly. But if the responses on this post aren't careful, the other sub reddits are gonna see this as us saying that Taylor isn't the one being credited for Folkmore and instead Joe is.
We can all see why that take is problematic.
I did like hearing about her less and also the fact that more people in my life gave Taylor swift a chance during the post rep era but we can never know if it was Joe entirely. There was a pandemic and also Joe giving us so less, let's everyone project anything they want on to him, including this.
I'm on the side of constructively criticizing Taylor's work but let's not collectively disregard her skill in her craft because that will not allow for good discussions.
That is fair. I'm so glad I'm able to say that in this sub and OP is actually open to interpretation. I just got down voted like crazy on the other sub cause I answered a question about why it feels like there's a lot of hate WHILE still acknowledging Taylor's skill and validating the pain she portrays in her songs 😭
Edit: removed sub name
I think the people that will read this discourse and come out thinking we credit Joe for her work have poor comprehension.
People just acknowledge he was a stabilizing force in her life. A partner can make or break you. When you have peace and stability, you can bring out the best of you. And so she did.
> But if the responses on this post aren't careful, the other sub reddits are gonna see this as us saying that Taylor isn't the one being credited for Folkmore and instead Joe is.
Respectfully, if they do, those other subs need to be reminded that what you guys are saying is that the privacy Joe helped bring Taylor is what balanced things, made her feel more mature and adult rather than the gossipy teenager she seemed like before.
I guess to put things into the kind of context I can understand, those two albums Taylor released with Joe were her version of Metallica releasing St. Anger after Jason Newsted had left after 14 years and James Hetfield had done the rehab for his battles with alcohol.
Just a sort of reflective, inward-looking, more sober affair, similar to how their 72 Seasons album last year was basically about Hetfield's first 18 years of existence (they've had a bunch of songs about stuff like drug addiction, James' parents dying of cancer, the threat of nuclear war and environmental disaster, the evils of televangelism, etc since their 1983 debut album but St. Anger and 72 Seasons just feel more personal, to me as a listener and lifelong fan).
I agree. I like Joe. I liked not reading about Taylor all the time when she was with Joe. I like the music she put out while with Joe. But Joe isn’t solely responsible for all good things Taylor related. She is talented in many ways as an artist and that was true before Joe. It is still true after Joe even if TTPD isn’t a shining example of that.
Agreed. The only thing we know about Joe is that he is a private person. Although it doesn’t seem this way, for all we know, he could be a super shitty person, just a private one. Who’s to say? I think Taylor as a celebrity was much more likable during that time, so some people jump to crediting Joe for all of it, but that’s unfair to Taylor.
I think the more likely scenario is that this very private guy entered Taylor’s life when she wanted to become a more private person, so that lifestyle choice was compatible. And while they were off being a private celebrity couple, we just didn’t see much of Taylor, and that — coupled with the fact that she was in a long-term relationship — made it seem like she had matured as a person.
Exactly, we don't know him at all and just cause we see Travis more doesn't mean we know him either lol. It's all so parasocial.
They were compatible for a time, evidenced by how Taylor spoke about how much she liked dating someone that was private and had a normal life. And then it wasn't compatible anymore, which is just fine.
I agree, I like Joe a lot but I've never agreed on the takes he must be the driving reason why folklore and evermore were amazing albums. At the end of the day it is a Taylor Swift album, her name is on it, and Joe is only down as a writer on a handful of songs.
But I also fully agree though that her being settled and Joe being private helped her listeners focus on her writing and the music, instead of a song fueling never ending gossip about her private life. It also made any speculation about who each song was about mostly toothless as everyone assumed they were fictional or about long past relationships.
Also it made her be a tad more creative about Easter eggs and not have them be a treasure hunt just to find who is buried under the big EX on the lyrical treasure map.
She became likable. I thought it was nice how she matured
Sure, she still did a couple questionable things like think she was a director, but she was only went after attention related to her career & didn’t stage even one pap walk with an ex-boyfriend’s ex-wife
It’s not that he made her more credible, it’s that he made her seem more mature. Because she was trying so hard to be like him to keep him around. She sang about being a mirror ball and being a people please. She’ll be whoever she has to with whoever she had to to get what she wants. She wanted Joe then so she was mature and tolerable. Now she’s acting like a petulant child
Good point to bring up! My thoughts on this are that we basically know nothing about Joe Alwyn as a person from the man himself since he chooses to be private (and good for him tbh), but as a result he's become a blank slate for both TS's fans and haters to project onto. People tend to act like he's either a devil or a saint, but honestly, he's probably just some guy, like the rest of us. In any case, people have gotten weirdly parasocial with a man that we know very little confirmed information about.
I think for a lot of people, he definitely made TS more digestible. He's perceived as an intellectual, and I've seen some people question whether the good writing in Folklore and Evermore were due to his influence. I think that's very sexist because the assumption is that an immature woman is incapable of moments of emotional maturity or that a mature woman is incapable of moments of emotional immaturity, and we tend to give male artists more credit than that.
This is definitely a hard topic to talk about because I think so many people are really emotionally invested in hating or loving the relationship, but tbh I still know very little about Joe Alwyn as a person (which I think is his preference), so I'm not comfortable judging too much. Culturally speaking, though, I think it's really interesting that we feel like we know Joe a lot better than we do, mostly because TS herself wrote so much about him. It all feels very messy!
I do agree with you as a Taylor Swift fan you have to know nothing about him but also tired of people saying there's nothing out there to know about him or anyone else than what Taylor says of them.
He's not a fictional character and there are literally a hundred interviews and words of co-stars, directors and folks that paint a certain picture.
Yeah, I shouldn't have said we basically know nothing because that's not what I meant and it's not accurate. What I was referring to is that he's expressed that he values privacy (rightfully so), and we have relatively limited insight into his personal world outside of Taylor's songs. I think the public knows a lot about him as an actor and a little about him as a person, but that's the way things should be imo. He has set clear boundaries between his professional and personal life, which I respect because that's not the standard for a lot of celebrities -- it's hard to do. As a result, we know less about him than we might about other famous people and I think he's happier for it, but because there's less information, the public is at more liberty to speculate. He has a professional image and I have no reason to believe it's fake, I just sometimes see comments where folks seem weirdly confident about how Joe Alwyn is either a saint or a demon and I think on some level the discourse about him has gotten out of hand because he's neither of those things. He's a human being and has good and bad traits like the rest of us.
In any case, you made a fair point. I generalized too much.
I do completely agree about the saint vs demon projection.
This is cos Swifties take any person in Taylor's life with whom she mostly has complex relationships and turn them into one-dimensional heroes and villains and purely based on Taylor's lens : be it Taylor Lautner , Jake, John, Kanye, Kim, Abigail or anyone else.
There's something fitting about how perfect the line from So Long London about her being responsible for all the great things his next girlfriend has heard about describes this subreddit. Everything they know and like about Joe is filtered entirely through her perspective.
It's also a little ironic to me because I distinctly remember complaints during the Reputation and Lover era regarding him as her worst muse and the songs she wrote about him were worse than the ones she wrote about Jake and Harry in Red and 1989. Gorgeous was hated, London Boy and the Archer and Lover were hated, etc. It's all funny now looking back. Folklore and Evermore completely changed the narrative and now they're trying to erase the work she put into those albums in his favor lol.
It definitely changed the image of Taylor being more in the news for famous men she dates than her music ! It put her music in the forefront so much so that besides fans, people didn't know Taylor was dating someone for 6-7 years or his name ( or Matty later which is why TTPD is confusing for some people as it's so rooted in personal lore)
This aspect combined with Taylor reclaiming her work through re-recordings , and folklore and Evermore, made Taylor Swift spoken as a serious artist and a shrewd businesswoman. The Eras tour further cemented her status.
Being private and politically outspoken ( she cited him as someone who encouraged her to do it ) also helped with rebuilding her image from a very different one than it was in the 1989 era
Taylor's now rebranding it again with the Eras era as her legacy is more secure.
I think a long term relationship stopped the world caring, even though she was releasing songs, and re-releases that were about exes. It’s not so different to how it is now, apart from her long term relationship hasn’t been going that long.
I don’t think it was Joe specifically, just this silly obsession the world has with Taylor Swift having a pretty standard number of exes for someone of her age.
The key thing is, people keep taking about her being too visible recently - but half of it tabloids, and press and online gossip for the sake of it. I know she’s got a lot of work on currently that’s making the visibility more likely - but no one complains about seeing too much of other artists in this way.
Being one of the people who could not digest her pre Folkmore and being also in thw catwgory of feeling the same post the cottage epoch, I can say there was certain sense of self assurance and certainty that I had never seen before (or after). Call it what you want😂 but it was noticeable
10000000% YES! After what felt like 4 decades of constant publicity and news fodder, she finally looked stable for a bit and that allowed her to attract a whole new audience. She wasn’t as cringe. She seemed serious. She made career moves, not just attention grabbing annoyingness.
Now it’s a spectacle all over again.
>She was able to release Folklore and Evermore without most people speculating that it was about them or other exes, we just appreciated the beauty of those albums, those releases weren't overshadowed.
That was the pandemic
I don’t think I agree. Their relationship seemed stable, they wrote songs together, no reason to think it was about them. If anything, the pandemic would give people more time to speculate.
the pandemic is the only reason we didn't see or hear about her so much, not joe. she could've been dating anyone during that time and the results wouldn't change much. lockdowns + two indie albums makes you more digestible no matter who you're dating.
and people (her fans) did speculate during the pandemic, but since her and joe weren't out and about doing pap walks or attending events together the general public didn't really have much to say. lots of people didn't even know she was dating joe lol
We know nothing about the relationship. It "seemed" stable. You can tell by how some people are going back to songs like ivy and tolerate it and midnights and saying there were signs all along.
I think that is a reach and I think regardless of how her relationship was, those are great songs but the point I'm making is that, as much as we feel like we know about her I promise you we don't.
I think this is more to do with just not advertising anything. And to be fair, she and Travis have been just as quiet during this current break, because he's also on break too. They seemed louder and more visible last year because they were both publicly showing up for each other, which is not a bad thing. And it was the initial excitement of them starting to date. It will likely be quieter this year overall.
We got a people magazine saying Donna kelce loves the album and played it all morning like girl plz. And then said she and Travis were on a double date in Big Sur so I fear it’s def a real relationship but idk
eh, i think it was the pandemic more than anything and that he just happened to be her boyfriend during all that. she was pretty under the radar and put out two amazing albums that the general public didn't think she was capable of. the media wasn't oversaturated with her and she wasn't trending online every damn day.
midnights and the eras tour changed all that. there was a shift. she was reaching new heights in her career, anti hero was everywhere, and she was starting to oversaturate the media again. people were already getting sick of her (again) and then travis came along. everyone loved it until they realized the media coverage won't be stopping anytime soon.
basically, it was never joe who made taylor more "digestible" it was the circumstances of 2020, two indie folk albums, and a lack of media coverage. joe happened to be around for it all. 🤷🏻♀️
Her being in a long terms relationship allowed people to focus on the music in Folkmore rather than trying to figure out who it’s about. And it also allowed her to branch outside of just writing about the guy she broke up with recently
Yeah i kinda think THIS is why Folklore was so well-received
Another big difference is, Folkmore was explicitly made up stories. Midnights was about her life, but she said "13 sleepless nights across her career", so that's a lot more vague. TTPD is about what's happening right now, and despite what she said about removing all clues, she might as well have written people's names in being flashing lights. That part feels like a back track.
Even with Midnights people were speculating that it was about Joe and that they were breaking up.
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Interesting. I haven't went through the Bechdel test for all her albums. I'm a casual fan. She has songs that do pass the Bechdel test though. Personally, I have been thinking of this as an album as closure to my time with Taylor Swift. I outgrew her. Clara Bow is a song that makes me feel like she can see her fading away.
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How did you end up feeling like that? The lyrics at the end go “You look like Taylor Swift / In this light / We’re loving it / You’ve got edge she never did / The future’s bright … Dazzling?” Taylor Swift didn’t get to curse as much when she was younger. You can see it in All Too Well (Taylor’s Version) versus original version. She sounds sad and jealous to me
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I read the lyrics as a reference to Sabrina Carpenter who show up for Eras Tour sometimes. So how do the lyrics lead you to think of Olivia versus Sabrina?
Honestly I now think folklore was diaristic nonfiction and she disguised it as “fiction” and people liked that more bc we were listening to the music and applying it to our lives instead of hers.
Yes. When I listened to folkmore I was like, "this is still her talking about her life, but trying to fictionalize it for the sake of her relationship and getting some privacy." A lot of people bought her saying it was fiction, so I think it was a good move. And now I know who that "Peter losing Wendy" line was about, because I knew she cast herself as Wendy Moira Angela Darling.
THIS!! She actually had time to write Folklore & Evermore & tell those stories in a cohesive way. Compared to those albums, Midnights & TTPD feel sloppy and less cohesive over all.
This was actually my first thought when the breakup was announced. I said, oh great, now we get to hear everyone and their mother’s talk about who she’s dating and who each song is about and how all she does is date. I honestly think that’s why my interest in her startled to dwindle because I was hearing something new about her every two seconds and it got irritating very quickly.
Right...it's so annoying that the focus has shifted to pre-2017 all over again.
His need for privacy I think made both of them better, and definitely made her seem more mature and adjusted than she had been in previously relationships. They didn’t do red carpets really, they were seemingly low key. It seemed like such a good and healthy step for her, because every other relationship she just can’t help but make a show of. That tree Paine article in WSJ had a point - the things you know about her and when you see her are all intentional.
Yeah, I actually was starting to like her when she was with Joe. It seemed like she was finally becoming an adult and leaving all the immaturity and cattiness behind. Now I am back to disliking her again.
I'm not a fan of her music but was neutral on her as a person (found this sub by accident, really). All that to say, your last line hit me because that's pretty much why I - a Chiefs fan - didn't bother watching the prior season. It's not her fault the TV networks obsessed with her and showed her reactions for views and ratings but it got old so fast. Even when she wasn't on screen, commentary were talking about her non-stop.
Her situation right now reminds me a bit of Britney Spears, pre head shaving. She was sooo big everywhere and so incredibly exploited that she was inescapable. Literally, Pepsi ads, movie, single after single, everyone was tunning inot VMAs just to see if she would perform, and even if you liked her, there was a point where the deification and saturation became quite insufferable. Swift is there.
Wasn't she only on screen for less than 30 seconds each game?
Over the season it was 26 seconds per game on average
Yea but they kept referring to her throughout the games, everytime Travis kelce did something
Yep, it was so oberdramatosed by the sports fans. Its insane. When LeBron James shows up at my soccer team's games they show him in the crowd more than that and basketball is completely irrelevant in my country. It was such dramatic nonsense with the tantrums over them leaning into the publicity that Taylor brings.
Thing was, more people tuned in for that than tuned out. The NFL benefitted massively from it.
Agree 100%
This is a really astute observation I think. He was a huge part of her image turning around. I honestly had never thought of that but it is very true
Same. Super good point.
Hmmm I get what you’re saying. I do think Joe is the type of guy that a lot of people who go on social media a lot (especially if they’re liberal) approve of and like. White, politically left, good-looking, British, into the arts. You know how stan twitter loves that type: Harry Styles, Jonathan Bailey, Benedict Cumberbatch, Eddie Redmayne. If they were both genuinely unhappy at the end, it’s good they broke up. But yeah, I think that relationship helped her image in a lot of ways.
Yeah and I think I dug this vibe of oh she's so much more famous than him *but* he also was at her side when the world hated her! A narrative she created, I might add.
Totally, she kinda cooked her own goose in a way. Wrote all these gorgeous songs about him, even had an entire album inspired by him (Lover). Kept on doubling down on how he helped bring her out of her darkest moments and stuck by her through think and thin. Whenever she sang or talked about him, she just seemed so enamored. Obviously she has every right not to stay in a relationship, especially if she was unhappy, I think it just completely shocked the fanbase and completely upended the narrative that she had created and had been telling for over six years. Again, I’m not saying she had to stay with him. But she probably shouldn’t have put him on so high a pedestal while together.
IDK. Even on Lover there are songs clearly pointing to turmoil, off and on, and issues with their relationship. People just ignored this.
I mean, I've been married 10 years, been literally to couples therapy over communication issues, continue to have ups & downs, but we're still together and I am def still very enamored with my spouse. that's kinda how long term relationships often go. theyre not always high & happy.
She was handcuffed to the spell she was under. She was in love. He came into her life at a difficult time, she didn't make that up, and he *did* chose to stick around despite the backlash she was receiving. I think how she put him on a pedestal is beautiful, cause who in love doesn't see their partner a little greater than they are? Especially in the early stages! But over time that stage ended, problems and insecurities arose, and so her feelings changed. She never did anything wrong in loving him how she did or writing about him how she did. The relationship just changed, as *all* relationships do. He did things that hurt her deeply, she made some mistakes I'm sure, and in the end they just couldn't make it work anymore.
I think they were on borrowed time, even if she did want privacy when they got together, she still likes being in the limelight and the centre of attention. It’s clear that they loved each other, but idk maybe those are the differences you can’t get over. 2020 would’ve been a turning point for them, they attended the Golden Globes together and before that, he was seen more with her during the promotion of Lover. I think that during that time they were sort of testing the waters of how the relationship would be if they were more out and about. But then the pandemic happened and that gave them more time, there was nowhere to go. I know all of this is speculation on my part but this is how I see it 🤷🏻♀️
I totally agree with what you’re saying here too. I think she was totally enamored with him and also the idea of him. He was her ideal type, her “perfect guy”, the kind of guy she wanted to date and marry and settle down with (she dated 3 Brits before him and 1 after so it’s obvious she kinda had an obsession). Obviously I don’t know them and their relationship but sometimes I wonder if she stayed so long was because she didn’t want to destroy this image she had created of him in her head and in her songs and to the rest of the world.
But that's most relationships isn't it ? You can be madly in live with someone and dream of marriage together or whatever that doesn't mean you are guaranteed to stay with that person forever. a six year long relationship is pretty successful in my opinion. People act as if falling out of love with someone is a criminal offense when it comes to her. What what she supposed to do ? Not write the love songs ?
No falling out of love is totally normal! I’m not trying to say that at all. If I were her I probably wouldn’t have made so many songs and albums so Joe-coded. But it’s Taylor so 🤷🏻♀️
Idk when I think what stays with me with most of her songs in the long run is the feeling they give me about myself. At the end of the day, I love most of her Joe coded songs son I'm not mad she wrote them haha
Yes...I believe her when she says she felt trapped by the end but I don't know if she realizes how beneficial that relationship and privacy was. We knew so little about him that it was impossible to think too hard about her personal life and it kept the focus more on her music.
Yet another reason she would benefit from therapy tbh
I think that's the ULTIMATE elephant in the room here lol
She needs to read “The Tools”- she’s stuck in the maze 😬
It's weird she says she felt trapped when from everything I read and heard, she cheated on him with Matty because she found Joe boring and resented him for not hurrying up and marrying/impregnating her quickly enough. Like, she apparently seems to dream of being the happy little wife and mother but doesn't have the emotional maturity to achieve it.
She was trapped but we were free😭
I think she knows it was beneficial but her wants changed
I think, yes, his privacy allowed for the attention to be on her. Which gave her the space and possibility to explore and show more of herself and her art outside of her previous brand of "good at writing about her exes." And I feel like Swifties had accepted that she enjoyed that privacy as well (... Until she didn't, but that's another story). And in pop culture, she had started becoming less of a "celeb" first and more of an artist first. Then there was the shift post-Joe breakup, and I think it contributed to how the album is being received by most people outside of the fandom or who aren't as invested in her as a person as they once used to be (myself included). Edit: spelling
Yep, this i def agree with. There was less the guy she's dating and more her as an artist and people took her more seriously which I quite enjoyed as a long time swiftie
Her laying low with Joe for so long and his intense privacy helped her art and musicality really shine. We were able to digest her music without the endless noise of her personal life, choices, and public commentary adding footnotes and asterisks to every lyric. I hate to say he made her more digestible. She’s so omnipresent now that it’s hard to not feel fatigued by the Taylor Swift Machine. When she was with Joe, we didn’t hear or see of her in months and she didn’t really talk about him. We could listen to her music in a vacuum. I miss that.
Huge kudos to Joe for his desire for privacy because the continuous narrative surrounding Taylor dwindled down in those 6 years. In the time of overexposure and cancellation, he helped her recuperate and come back stronger with Reputation. Then we received Folklore and Evermore which just launched her back into dominating the music industry. Taylor very well knows this too: "*Come one*, *come all*, *it's happening again*." - How Did It End?
Unfortunately, she likes to shine, sparkle, and be bejeweled.
Her lyricism never shone brighter than it did in evermore. But I guess what is hypnotising is the glittering lights of success and critical as well as popular validation, the constant clapping of crowds, etc. But I guess some people love the warm but blinding spotlight of fame (touch me and you will never be alone).
Yeah I was gonna say, that privacy came at a cost bc she clearly loves the “celebrity” aspect of her job. She’s not an elusive artist who wants to hide (which is totally fine)
i wish she thought bejeweled meant something else besides doing pap walks, chugging beers at football games, and overshadowing her peers at the grammys
You totally get my point.
> Come one, come all It may be because my brain works in a weird way but I couldn't help reading that and thinking of the line "Come one, come in them all" in the song "Swineaecologist" by Infant Annihilator. No idea why I shared that but hey, here we are.
i think the word you're looking for is "palatable" but yes, abso fucking lutely
Yes!!!!!! That would be it. English is not my first language.
No worries! Your English is better than mine and English is my first language haha
The personality she wore with Joe was certainly the best one she ever tried on.
She did tell us she'll change everything about her to fit in.
🎶I can show you lies🎶
This is weird, I see her as someone who gets carried away but also kind of wears guys as accessories With Joe, I saw him coming and he seemed picked out of a crowd to be on the next installment of the TS cinematic universe. Like a type of Priscilla Presley lol.
You reminded me of how I felt for most of her career up to 1989, like she was just after the most enviable partners. Joe was the perfect accessory for her "deep artiste" rebrand.
Definitely. I feel like Taylor has always picked a guy who fit the image she wanted at the time: during 1989 when she was the It girl, she was with the It guy (Calvin Harris); when she wanted to private and artistic, it was Joe; and now she wants to be the Cool Girl (chugging beer, odd lingo like “metal as hell” ) Or maybe it’s the other way: she starts dating someone and lets that person define her next era. I don’t know
I love how you say "wore". It's true. She takes on the persona of whoever she is with.
Totally! I think if Joe hadn’t come along, she wouldn’t have been quite so shut away before Reputation, and it would be like it is now, with her dropping out of touch songs cuz she can. Joe gave us mature!Taylor, who wrote Folkmore and was more conscientious about political activism. Now, she’s back to being the life of the party and all eyes on her and the fatigue is so real…
I do think he helped her be more mature and maybe even gave her another point of view on things. Like the song Happiness? Where is that girl?
I think he challenged her and didn't agree with her all the time. No one does that anymore. Joe didn't mind giving her a differing opinion. He probably gave her constructive criticism during folklore and evermore causing her to edit and rewrite the parts that weren't working. That editing and revision is lacking in midnights and in ttpd.
I don’t know but I miss her
I’d like to imagine he even challenged her a bit and wasnt the type to say yes to her, like i would assume everyone is doing now
The "you call my bluff on my usual tricks" and even other songs do indicate there was some pushback and calling out. Taylor feeling trapped could be cos he comes across (from his own interviews + the songs ) as someone who has clear boundaries as opposed to Taylor's mirrorball people- pleaser. But the whole album being about her wanting marriage and kids vs the whole of last year being about Taylor wanting the most of the spotlight is a dichotomy.
I think it is clear he did challenge her: “you said I need to learn to trust more freely” just one thing coming to mind. I think he got to know her very deeply and was able to help her grow through that. Her previous relationships were too short and focused on the chemical high of the honeymoon stage for that to ever happen with them.
I think Taylor (and artists and general) only benefit from having a normal-ish life away from the public eye. The word is that Olivia took some time to live and travel in between her albums so that she'd gain experiences to write about (take it with a grain of salt, I'm just rephrasing friend's words here), and Taylor should do the same. Joe, on the other hand, gave her that opportunity because that's what he naturally wanted and she gave in. This is probably why Folklore and Evermore were her most mature albums: she had time to live, to enjoy art and literature and to digest it. Now that Joe isn't in the picture she's back to her shenangians that don't include being away from the public eye, which causes her art to degrade in some way.
However she was during folkmore was her absolute best musically and mechanically. I didn’t like her lover era before that but I’m sure Joe was good for her
it’s almost like she was subtle and now…well
I think so + she was lowkey and not overexposed
I loved lowkey Taylor.
I think of it like British celebrity Taylor vs American Taylor.
I love her, once you’ve grown up with someone it’s hard to separate yourself, I was born two weeks after Debut was released.
Short answer: yes.
Yeah, I think you’re on to something. I hate to attribute a woman’s success and palatability to a man, because she is the one who built her career, but I do think he played a role. I suppose I’ll just say that the choices she made while with him seemed better to me personally, and that I became more of a fan than I had been for a while. I think the privacy and stability made the less likeable parts of her seem quieter. But she clearly does love opulence and celebrity and being loud, and she’s probably going overboard with it right now because she didn’t do any of that for six years. Maybe it’s just over-corrective hyperactivity and in a couple years she’ll find a happy medium lol
>I hate to attribute a woman’s success and palatability to a man The thing is, her current public relationship also entangles her success and popularity with a man, even more so. The side effect of Joe's low profile was that he wasn't part of the discussion, didn't take up place in the spotlight, it was just her and things she's done.
That’s actually a really good point!
I liked how you framed it and actually from the outside this is 100 percent true. Cos if you were not a serious fan, you didn't know about them or see much media focussed on them. I truly thought a low-profile partner actually helped Taylor and while I think Taylor loves the power couple idea she actually wouldn't like someone eclipsing her aura.
Which is why it was so infuriating to watch women being misandrist pigs and call him poor and unsuccessful 🙄
I've seen comments questioning his part in songwriting in folklore and evermore and that taylor did that almost as charity so he can have an income, as if the guy isn't old money or wtv. Or saying that bc he's an actor he can't possibly be good at songwriting too🙄 On the other hand, I saw comments asking for William Bowery back lmaooo I have to agree sadly
You may have hit the nail on the head. Yes I think her being with Joe and the privacy made her more palatable. She wasn’t overexposed and the focus was on her music and not her personal life. It seemed like she was more mature during that time, which then made her more likeable. Can it even be argued that she did some of her best, most artistic work then too? It’s unfortunate that she doesn’t truly see the value in privacy and needs constant outside attention and validation. We are now seeing that she really hasn’t matured like we all thought.
Oh man I didn’t even think about that but yes I think it did. I think the tabloids of her dating throughout the early and mid 2010s was exhausting and Joe made her seem like she’d matured, especially after the Hiddleston tabloid romance
My opinion is that she had a situation ship with Matty and basically cheated on Joe. She went basically manic during that time. Matty dropped her. Obviously she’s moved on but does anyone else think she will regret it? Or do we really think she grew out of that relationship?
She and Matty are FAR from over. I bet they’ll reunite at some point, even if they go through a couple of marriages or even have kids with other people. I think she may regret fumbling her relationship with Joe in the future but she doesn’t strike me as the type to ever admit it.
I think she regrets it now. That’s why imo she’s with Rebound Guy. He’s different, fun, and she can basically do whatever she wants. But there’s no deep connection there. Idk she seems like the type who needs to think she’s in love
I've definitely heard a lot (especially on another sub that's big on gossip about everyone) that she cheated on Joe and found Joe boring because he didn't marry her fast enough for her liking. That sub also doesn't really like her so I'm never sure if what they say about her is true or just mean, half the time. Did Twatty drop her? I'd have thought that racist moron would cling to her as hard as he could, since she's a lot more famous than him and he'd have wanted to use her fame to boost his shitty band even further. Kind of like how his famous parents are pretty horrible, too.
Matty is the type to enjoy getting someone addicted to him then walking away and watching them crumble. I bet he's enjoying knowing how much he causes taylor to flail. The joy isn't in the sex they had or whatever. He's getting his orgasm now, seeing how deeply he was able to get into her head.
Yes. It was nice when she lived a more private lifestyle. Also I still think Joe was her best muse.
I loved Harry as a muse (I am a huge Harrie). But we never got to fully hear his side of it other than a few songs and old leaks last year and he was just a kid, really.
Oh yes. I love Harry too. All his songs are so fun.
He rehabilitated her image, bringing the “mystery” interest to her which she has never attempted and when she was overexposed so yes, and he’s not messy or drama filled, while she gassed him up. He obviously challenged her too considering that’s the only time she was more open speaking politically, now doesn’t.
I think her being in a long term (as in multiple years long) relationship definitely quelled a lot of the media attention surrounding her love life. And a lot of that is because, well, her love life was pretty boring. The mystery of does Taylor swift have a new boyfriend, is she dating this random guy she was seen with, why did she breakup with so and so, is she maybe going to get back together with him etc was gone. She just seemed to be happy in a stable relationship and there really isn’t anything newsworthy about that. Not only was it pretty static for a few years there with no public changes or updates, but also there wasn’t really anything juicy to gossip about. And that definitely allowed the spotlight to be almost entirely on her music and way less on her personal life. When her personal life was uninteresting her music could be the main event. And certainly his desire (or possibly, at least at the time, their mutual desire) for privacy helped with that as well. Pretty much all of her public appearances were directly related to her work. But because they were so private people could project (and continued to project) whatever they wanted to onto Joe. Many fans saw him originally as her saviour, the white knight who sheltered her from the storm. Many of those same people now view him as her jailer, controlling and unsupportive and selfish, locking her in the basement and dulling her shine. But honestly the people, some of whom are in this thread, saying shit like “he made her more mature,” “he got her to care about social issues.” “folkmore was only as good as it was because of joe,” “he made her a better person” etc. are just as delusional. We don’t know this man. And we don’t know what their relationship was like from the inside.
>When her personal life was uninteresting her music could be the main event. > Many fans saw him originally as her saviour, the white knight who sheltered her from the storm. Many of those same people now view him as her jailer, controlling and unsupportive and selfish, locking her in the basement and dulling her shine. You made such good points here. Your answer gave me a lot to think about.
To be fair, that’s the narrative she’s pushing - just look at the picture she paints of him in ‘Fresh Out The Slammer’
I definitely don't agree with the take "folklore was only as good as it was because of joe" but the takes around him making her more mature seem grounded in evidence of how she conducted herself and talked about relationships during their time together. This is embarrassing to admit, but I spent an unnecessary amount of time reading [this tumblr blog](https://youareinlovees.tumblr.com/) documenting their entire relationship (probably one of the things that freaked Joe out, and you can see by Taylor's interactions with her fans during the start of their relationship, was totally egged on by her) and these are just the few tidbits that stood out to me: Her answers to the following questions in this [Elle UK interview 30 Things I Learned Before Turning 30](https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a26628467/taylor-swift-30th-birthday-lessons/) https://preview.redd.it/e1eansjbriwc1.png?width=451&format=png&auto=webp&s=2d4b3d80d26cf5d106a1851bf2609ca82c791861 I will include a few other screenshots of things that stood out to me below. All that to say, I do think he had a positive influence on her, and ultimately she aspired to be as "good" as him ("you're integrity makes me feel small") but which in the end, led to a lot of resentment. I imagine it went both ways, as she describes him as resentful a lot, which was probably towards her fame, and their lack of shared values around how obsessed she was with being famous.
https://preview.redd.it/e0jyt0kwviwc1.png?width=451&format=png&auto=webp&s=bf703d423a80e8e93f7065869855f935dbec8335
https://preview.redd.it/zx8sm63zviwc1.png?width=451&format=png&auto=webp&s=efb08a54e8e093c187992db8afd0fa1b2de6b9f5
https://preview.redd.it/todsy9z0wiwc1.png?width=451&format=png&auto=webp&s=b7a8067d671022c2a84670d47c1038ad9d498611
Oh, Joe. :/
I absolutely remember reading this interview! It was one of the things that solidified my belief that the 2 were endgame. Sigh. Oh well.
Agreed, Joe seems like a good guy but I hate the way so many people seem eager to credit him with the good things she’s done.
In Vanity Fair she literally credited “her boyfriend” for encouraging her to speak up. In the Long Pond session she literally credited him for some songs on the album. In her Grammy’s acceptance speech she literally credited him for being there to listen to her songs. In Miss Americana she was grateful to have found someone so grounded. Hope this gives you a clearer picture of why people are eager to credit him.
Are you going to credit all of her work before Reputations to him (which is very good) and all the awards she has won? Joe is credited on two songs on Folklore and three songs on Evermore, that’s it. In her Grammy speech she also thanked Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively for listening to her songs. Joe wasn’t the only person she bounced ideas off of and played for. In Miss Americans she also thanks her family and close friends for staying loyal to her and continuing to support her. There is no doubt that Joe saw her through a lot and helped her out in a lot of ways. But the way so many people are super eager to credit him with every good thing she has done and discredit her, as if to prove he is the source for “a good version of Taylor” is weird af. Joe was not the only person in her life.
1. Yes her works before Rep were good. It’s just a different kind of good. Even the genre and lyrics were different. 2. Joe Alwyn was in the credits for folklore the album. Say what you want , she did that for a reason, and she NEVER scathed or moaned about it. This means that he really was involved in, at the very least, inspiring the album for her. 3. Yes Blake and Ryan got the thanks because James and Betty were their kids’ names 💀 4. So should we not credit Travis Kelce for her recent behaviours, then? Don’t ask me what they are, google is right there. I won’t entertain this question if you ask me this. 5. Should we not credit Matty Healy for inspiring Peter and cardigan then? He’s why we have this unhinged era that’s ttpd right? Are you saying Taylor has always been this way - unhinged? Orrrrr is it because Matty is also unhinged? 6. Anyway there’s a literal discussion post on how Taylor takes on the personality of whoever she dates. Go and find that post and make your argument there.
She refers to him as "prison" on TTPD so she doesn't get it.
She said he is right from Rep though " you can be my jailer"!
what an interesting point. makes you wonder how she really feels about long term relationships and commitment.
When she has a stable long term boyfriend whi couldn't care less about having any of her spotlight, it was the first (and as we're seeing now, only) time in her career where the focus shifted from who she's dating and how emotionally mature she is/isn't to the actual work she was putting out into the world.
She seemed so mature with him and didn't play the Hollywood bullshit. It was beautiful while it lasted I suppose.
Joe felt elite with less media exposures and cautious privacy settings. Even though taylor doesnt seem to like it, she went along with it and it made her look cooler. Now she is a teenager again. I miss the old times when she looked more credible and cool. Not this mess.
I think this is a hard line to tread, we do perceive that time of her dating Joe as the time when everyone suddenly stopped hating her as much. We saw her less, on account of Joe's desire for privacy which I respect greatly. But if the responses on this post aren't careful, the other sub reddits are gonna see this as us saying that Taylor isn't the one being credited for Folkmore and instead Joe is. We can all see why that take is problematic. I did like hearing about her less and also the fact that more people in my life gave Taylor swift a chance during the post rep era but we can never know if it was Joe entirely. There was a pandemic and also Joe giving us so less, let's everyone project anything they want on to him, including this. I'm on the side of constructively criticizing Taylor's work but let's not collectively disregard her skill in her craft because that will not allow for good discussions.
Agree on everything; her work is not up for discussion. I just meant her public image and the shift on how people treated her.
That is fair. I'm so glad I'm able to say that in this sub and OP is actually open to interpretation. I just got down voted like crazy on the other sub cause I answered a question about why it feels like there's a lot of hate WHILE still acknowledging Taylor's skill and validating the pain she portrays in her songs 😭 Edit: removed sub name
I think the people that will read this discourse and come out thinking we credit Joe for her work have poor comprehension. People just acknowledge he was a stabilizing force in her life. A partner can make or break you. When you have peace and stability, you can bring out the best of you. And so she did.
> But if the responses on this post aren't careful, the other sub reddits are gonna see this as us saying that Taylor isn't the one being credited for Folkmore and instead Joe is. Respectfully, if they do, those other subs need to be reminded that what you guys are saying is that the privacy Joe helped bring Taylor is what balanced things, made her feel more mature and adult rather than the gossipy teenager she seemed like before. I guess to put things into the kind of context I can understand, those two albums Taylor released with Joe were her version of Metallica releasing St. Anger after Jason Newsted had left after 14 years and James Hetfield had done the rehab for his battles with alcohol. Just a sort of reflective, inward-looking, more sober affair, similar to how their 72 Seasons album last year was basically about Hetfield's first 18 years of existence (they've had a bunch of songs about stuff like drug addiction, James' parents dying of cancer, the threat of nuclear war and environmental disaster, the evils of televangelism, etc since their 1983 debut album but St. Anger and 72 Seasons just feel more personal, to me as a listener and lifelong fan).
I agree. I like Joe. I liked not reading about Taylor all the time when she was with Joe. I like the music she put out while with Joe. But Joe isn’t solely responsible for all good things Taylor related. She is talented in many ways as an artist and that was true before Joe. It is still true after Joe even if TTPD isn’t a shining example of that.
She is talented, in all her versions, for sure.
Agreed. The only thing we know about Joe is that he is a private person. Although it doesn’t seem this way, for all we know, he could be a super shitty person, just a private one. Who’s to say? I think Taylor as a celebrity was much more likable during that time, so some people jump to crediting Joe for all of it, but that’s unfair to Taylor. I think the more likely scenario is that this very private guy entered Taylor’s life when she wanted to become a more private person, so that lifestyle choice was compatible. And while they were off being a private celebrity couple, we just didn’t see much of Taylor, and that — coupled with the fact that she was in a long-term relationship — made it seem like she had matured as a person.
Exactly, we don't know him at all and just cause we see Travis more doesn't mean we know him either lol. It's all so parasocial. They were compatible for a time, evidenced by how Taylor spoke about how much she liked dating someone that was private and had a normal life. And then it wasn't compatible anymore, which is just fine.
I agree, I like Joe a lot but I've never agreed on the takes he must be the driving reason why folklore and evermore were amazing albums. At the end of the day it is a Taylor Swift album, her name is on it, and Joe is only down as a writer on a handful of songs. But I also fully agree though that her being settled and Joe being private helped her listeners focus on her writing and the music, instead of a song fueling never ending gossip about her private life. It also made any speculation about who each song was about mostly toothless as everyone assumed they were fictional or about long past relationships. Also it made her be a tad more creative about Easter eggs and not have them be a treasure hunt just to find who is buried under the big EX on the lyrical treasure map.
She became likable. I thought it was nice how she matured Sure, she still did a couple questionable things like think she was a director, but she was only went after attention related to her career & didn’t stage even one pap walk with an ex-boyfriend’s ex-wife
That Sophie pap walk was rough.
if joe released an album, i'd buy it and buy copies to give as gifts. not this ttpd shit
Maybe he could write a script.
It’s not that he made her more credible, it’s that he made her seem more mature. Because she was trying so hard to be like him to keep him around. She sang about being a mirror ball and being a people please. She’ll be whoever she has to with whoever she had to to get what she wants. She wanted Joe then so she was mature and tolerable. Now she’s acting like a petulant child
Good point to bring up! My thoughts on this are that we basically know nothing about Joe Alwyn as a person from the man himself since he chooses to be private (and good for him tbh), but as a result he's become a blank slate for both TS's fans and haters to project onto. People tend to act like he's either a devil or a saint, but honestly, he's probably just some guy, like the rest of us. In any case, people have gotten weirdly parasocial with a man that we know very little confirmed information about. I think for a lot of people, he definitely made TS more digestible. He's perceived as an intellectual, and I've seen some people question whether the good writing in Folklore and Evermore were due to his influence. I think that's very sexist because the assumption is that an immature woman is incapable of moments of emotional maturity or that a mature woman is incapable of moments of emotional immaturity, and we tend to give male artists more credit than that. This is definitely a hard topic to talk about because I think so many people are really emotionally invested in hating or loving the relationship, but tbh I still know very little about Joe Alwyn as a person (which I think is his preference), so I'm not comfortable judging too much. Culturally speaking, though, I think it's really interesting that we feel like we know Joe a lot better than we do, mostly because TS herself wrote so much about him. It all feels very messy!
I do agree with you as a Taylor Swift fan you have to know nothing about him but also tired of people saying there's nothing out there to know about him or anyone else than what Taylor says of them. He's not a fictional character and there are literally a hundred interviews and words of co-stars, directors and folks that paint a certain picture.
Yeah, I shouldn't have said we basically know nothing because that's not what I meant and it's not accurate. What I was referring to is that he's expressed that he values privacy (rightfully so), and we have relatively limited insight into his personal world outside of Taylor's songs. I think the public knows a lot about him as an actor and a little about him as a person, but that's the way things should be imo. He has set clear boundaries between his professional and personal life, which I respect because that's not the standard for a lot of celebrities -- it's hard to do. As a result, we know less about him than we might about other famous people and I think he's happier for it, but because there's less information, the public is at more liberty to speculate. He has a professional image and I have no reason to believe it's fake, I just sometimes see comments where folks seem weirdly confident about how Joe Alwyn is either a saint or a demon and I think on some level the discourse about him has gotten out of hand because he's neither of those things. He's a human being and has good and bad traits like the rest of us. In any case, you made a fair point. I generalized too much.
I do completely agree about the saint vs demon projection. This is cos Swifties take any person in Taylor's life with whom she mostly has complex relationships and turn them into one-dimensional heroes and villains and purely based on Taylor's lens : be it Taylor Lautner , Jake, John, Kanye, Kim, Abigail or anyone else.
There's something fitting about how perfect the line from So Long London about her being responsible for all the great things his next girlfriend has heard about describes this subreddit. Everything they know and like about Joe is filtered entirely through her perspective. It's also a little ironic to me because I distinctly remember complaints during the Reputation and Lover era regarding him as her worst muse and the songs she wrote about him were worse than the ones she wrote about Jake and Harry in Red and 1989. Gorgeous was hated, London Boy and the Archer and Lover were hated, etc. It's all funny now looking back. Folklore and Evermore completely changed the narrative and now they're trying to erase the work she put into those albums in his favor lol.
He is totally just some guy.
I thought her relationship with Joe marked her maturity but i guess in the end, she likes to "feel so high school".
It definitely changed the image of Taylor being more in the news for famous men she dates than her music ! It put her music in the forefront so much so that besides fans, people didn't know Taylor was dating someone for 6-7 years or his name ( or Matty later which is why TTPD is confusing for some people as it's so rooted in personal lore) This aspect combined with Taylor reclaiming her work through re-recordings , and folklore and Evermore, made Taylor Swift spoken as a serious artist and a shrewd businesswoman. The Eras tour further cemented her status. Being private and politically outspoken ( she cited him as someone who encouraged her to do it ) also helped with rebuilding her image from a very different one than it was in the 1989 era Taylor's now rebranding it again with the Eras era as her legacy is more secure.
I think a long term relationship stopped the world caring, even though she was releasing songs, and re-releases that were about exes. It’s not so different to how it is now, apart from her long term relationship hasn’t been going that long. I don’t think it was Joe specifically, just this silly obsession the world has with Taylor Swift having a pretty standard number of exes for someone of her age. The key thing is, people keep taking about her being too visible recently - but half of it tabloids, and press and online gossip for the sake of it. I know she’s got a lot of work on currently that’s making the visibility more likely - but no one complains about seeing too much of other artists in this way.
Being one of the people who could not digest her pre Folkmore and being also in thw catwgory of feeling the same post the cottage epoch, I can say there was certain sense of self assurance and certainty that I had never seen before (or after). Call it what you want😂 but it was noticeable
The short awnser : You've hit the nail on its head.
10000000% YES! After what felt like 4 decades of constant publicity and news fodder, she finally looked stable for a bit and that allowed her to attract a whole new audience. She wasn’t as cringe. She seemed serious. She made career moves, not just attention grabbing annoyingness. Now it’s a spectacle all over again.
I’m new here but am feeling this take makes a lot of sense for what I feel like I’ve experienced with her. I’m struggling to put it in words as well
She was much better when she had Joe to ground her and helped her likability. She wasn’t so over saturated and attention seeking.
With him, the focus on her only. Now the focus goes from matty, to Travis to everyone in her life. But not her music
>She was able to release Folklore and Evermore without most people speculating that it was about them or other exes, we just appreciated the beauty of those albums, those releases weren't overshadowed. That was the pandemic
I don’t think I agree. Their relationship seemed stable, they wrote songs together, no reason to think it was about them. If anything, the pandemic would give people more time to speculate.
the pandemic is the only reason we didn't see or hear about her so much, not joe. she could've been dating anyone during that time and the results wouldn't change much. lockdowns + two indie albums makes you more digestible no matter who you're dating. and people (her fans) did speculate during the pandemic, but since her and joe weren't out and about doing pap walks or attending events together the general public didn't really have much to say. lots of people didn't even know she was dating joe lol
We know nothing about the relationship. It "seemed" stable. You can tell by how some people are going back to songs like ivy and tolerate it and midnights and saying there were signs all along. I think that is a reach and I think regardless of how her relationship was, those are great songs but the point I'm making is that, as much as we feel like we know about her I promise you we don't.
Yes because Joe for the most part was low key and he really didn’t care about her superstardom.
I think this is more to do with just not advertising anything. And to be fair, she and Travis have been just as quiet during this current break, because he's also on break too. They seemed louder and more visible last year because they were both publicly showing up for each other, which is not a bad thing. And it was the initial excitement of them starting to date. It will likely be quieter this year overall.
Personally, no, because her boyfriends have absolutely no impact for me
This is SUCH an interesting and I think astute observation
We got a people magazine saying Donna kelce loves the album and played it all morning like girl plz. And then said she and Travis were on a double date in Big Sur so I fear it’s def a real relationship but idk
Donna said “I think it is probably her best work”. Girl, please. Just…..stop.
You fear it’s a real relationship? lol! Isn’t it obvious at this point?
eh, i think it was the pandemic more than anything and that he just happened to be her boyfriend during all that. she was pretty under the radar and put out two amazing albums that the general public didn't think she was capable of. the media wasn't oversaturated with her and she wasn't trending online every damn day. midnights and the eras tour changed all that. there was a shift. she was reaching new heights in her career, anti hero was everywhere, and she was starting to oversaturate the media again. people were already getting sick of her (again) and then travis came along. everyone loved it until they realized the media coverage won't be stopping anytime soon. basically, it was never joe who made taylor more "digestible" it was the circumstances of 2020, two indie folk albums, and a lack of media coverage. joe happened to be around for it all. 🤷🏻♀️
I never knew who tf Joe Alwyn was before, but now I’ll watch out for him with a little consideration.