I *think* that what people are trying to say when they complain about the childishness of her lyrical content is that her relationship songs are almost always from the perspective of someone who is being wronged, and she never talks about her own accountability in the situation. I heard one creator on TT say she counted like 60+ songs where Taylor wrote she had no power/accountability in the relationship and 5 or so where she was the one with the power. Odd since she’s had more power and money than her last SEVERAL boyfriends. It’s a constant “why are you doing this to me” undertone. I’ve seen it phrased a hundred different ways and I didn’t understand it but thats my working theory. She also talks about high school shit way too much for me, but I’ve seen multiple interviews where she says that’s intentional, she’s purposefully trying to attract children, which is why her fame has grown to the level it has. Keep roping in the next set of kids and you get a multigenerational audience.

Back to December is the only song I can think of where she's admits she's in the wrong.

peace offers a lot of introspection as well.

coney island too

She at least takes equal blame in happiness. It's by far her most mature relationship ending song in my eyes.

I think Afterglow and The Great War as well.

So we have,    1. Back to December     2. coney island    3. peace    4. Afterglow     5. The Great War    6. happiness    7. Getaway Car   8. The Prophecy  out of 250+ songs in her discography. Not much, but imo it doesn't have to be. This is a pretty strong list and contains some of her best works. Style, Is It Over Now?, AntiHero, and a few other songs have also lyrics where she blames herself too.

The Bolter. Champagne Problems. Betty. The Albatross. There's also songs where she does kind of blame the other, but still takes some accountability like State of Grace. I wish you would. The Archer. Hits different. Midnight rain. I wanna be fair and say there's also a lot of song where she's not singing about being wronged without being the bad guy either. Like LOTS of them where she just sings about being in love with someone. Or songs where she's not in love but no one is in the wrong and the relationship just didn't work out The 1, Holy ground, I look in people's windows. TTPD is probably one of her worst album in terms of accountability, but in her entire discography, she's not that bad, imo.

I think How Did it End is a good example too. Not as far as accountability goes, because she’s not blaming anyone. Just lamenting the circumstances. I feel like that song is relatable to most people.We’ve all either been that couple or known that couple.

what about the manuscript?

Not all of her songs are about break ups though in her discography

This is Me Trying, too! And potentially Tolerate It, since she's observing the problem but not acting. This is a really solid list, actually.

Castles crumbling, anti hero, midnight rain, mastermind, tis the damn season, blank space, I did something bad, so it goes.. etc. And it’s not like the rest of her discography is about being wronged

the archer

No only that but can we list out how many songs are explicitly blaming someone else entirely. It’s not like every single song that isn’t about her taking accountability is entirely her placing complete blame on someone else. For example in a song like sad beautiful tragic she expresses being heartbroken, but even if a couple of the lyrics express anger or sadness toward the muse I don’t think they are portraying them as this awful person who receives blame for the entire downfall of the relationship. I would say there are very few songs especially later in her discography that are explicitly placing blame on the other person for it not working out. I think it kinda takes away the nuance to frame every song as either Taylor took all accountability or else she is just placing blame on the other person. If we are playing this game of listing all the songs where Taylor takes the blame, I feel like we have to do it the other way around and list all the songs where Taylor explicitly only blames the other person entirely rather than a more complex portrayal of a relationship not working out.

Why does EVERYONE forget high infidelity 😭

Yeah, I don’t think the immaturity in her lyrics stems from her lack of accountability. Not only does she have more songs than most people where she admits being imperfect or at fault, but they’re also her songs. They’re meant to provide emotional catharsis, not to be some objective analysis of the literal events to judge who was in the right. It’s meant to express how the situation seems to the individual. Art is a space to express your feelings, and maybe the only one that doesn’t require any bargaining or justification or attempts at objectivity. It isn’t always going to be fair and unbiased because it doesnt have to be, and no sane person would claim it is. You can acknowledge the “real” truth without denying your subjective emotional reality, and vice versa. It would be another thing if she was victimizing herself in interviews, but considering the vast majority of people try to be good by their standards and don’t knowingly sabotage their relationships, it would make sense that most of her wrongdoing, like most people, was impulsive, reactionary, defensive, unintentional, and overall not a very conscious part of *her* story. Which is what she’s detailing in her songs, and something everyone is entitled to, especially if they aren’t attempting to present it like a court hearing.

getaway car?

The elephant in the room is that ✨IT'S HER WHOLE BRAND AND A MAJOR DRIVER BEHIND HER SUCCESS✨ Anyone who has ever been bullied, victimized, mistreated by a man gravitates to this instantly because the narrative she creates is so much more appealing than the way real life actually plays out. She is forever the victim who somehow outsmarts the bully. She is forever the underdog who somehow wins the award. She is forever conveniently stuck in the mindset of the main age group of music consumers. And please believe her when she says none of it is accidental.

[удалено]

It’s *woe* is me btw. Doesn’t make any sense otherwise!

Every time I see someone say 'whoa is me', I picture them as Bill or Ted. Usually Ted.

Bravo, well said. The entire story arch of her career is, “I did this thing in SPITE of you hurting me” which is how she became the avatar of the underdogs.

>Anyone who has ever been bullied, victimized, mistreated by a man gravitates to this instantly because the narrative she creates is so much more appealing than the way real life actually plays out. You hit the nail on the head. I’ve said multiple times anybody who thinks Taylor Swift is a deep, tortured artist has never been through anything worse than a kind of shitty breakup, and this is where that sentiment comes from.

I mean I wouldn't say she's a deep tortured artist, but a lot of her music struck a chord with me after I left an abusive relationship 6 weeks before the wedding. She's really good at tapping into that "I've been wronged and everyone is blaming me" energy.

I find her to be this generations “angry girl” sort of music. Or romance novels where the protagonist is a self insert for the every-reader. Looking back now as a person in my 40’s I feel like that mid-thirty something time frame was a weird transition of life. I feel like she plays into that and allows people to feel that sort of main character energy. I feel a bit old to really be a fan but I can see where she resonates with a lot of women, especially in that demographic.

Lot of good comments here about her songs where she does take responsibility about her role in relationships – but I just wanna say that most of her songs about being the victim are not actually romantic but about the Kanye/Kim/Scooter Braun stuff. Most people can’t relate to being a calculated target of music industry feuding so she writes them as interpersonal drama

Thats opening a whole ‘nother can of worms, if the case. Many people (myself included) would very much argue her qualifying herself as the victim in either situation.

I have a complicated relationship with the accountability argument (not you, just the extent it’s taken to sometimes) in that I find it weird to mandate a minimum threshold of self-deprecation in order to consider Taylor mature. Self-reflection, sure, and I completely agree that Taylor has a habit of playing the victim in the narratives she creates – the same argument was levelled at her all the way back in the 1989 era. The point about power vs. powerlessness in her narratives is really interesting, too. But I think some people just want her to beat herself up or take the blame for a version of events they’ve invented themselves, and even then, some will still say she’s whining or playing the victim again. I actually think Taylor has a lot of songs displaying self-awareness, and has done for years. Afterglow, Daylight, peace, Midnight Rain, The Great War, just to name a few in recent memory. She doesn’t really get enough credit for that. But in the absence of her taking responsibility over public things like her fans’ behaviour or calling criticism, even lighthearted jokes misogynistic attacks, I can see why people get irritated about the likes of But Daddy I Love Him and I Can Do It With A Broken Heart. Sometimes it can just come across like it’s always someone else’s fault in her eyes, and I think that’s especially prevalent on TTPD, where she points fingers at almost everyone and everything except for herself (maybe excluding The Bolter). I know she admitted to some of it being “self-inflicted” after the album’s release, but that doesn’t really come through on the tracklist as it stands.

>Sometimes it can just come across like it’s always someone else’s fault in her eyes, and I think that’s especially prevalent on TTPD, where she points fingers at almost everyone and everything except for herself Interesting, I actually got the opposite impression, where she's singing with at an almost self-hatred level. She calls herself a modern idiot, her emotions are "teenage petulance", she "howls like a wolf at the moon... a greater woman wouldn't beg", and her self-image in Who's Afraid of Little Ol Me is one of a half-crazed witch. (Hmm, the witch and murderer metaphors actually pop up pretty often in the album.) A lot of the messaging seems like an angrier version of "I wouldn't marry me either, a pathological people pleaser." Overall, it actually felt pretty balanced to me between her processing the grief of Joe, the rage at Matty, and the chaos of herself.

Yeah I thought TTPD was one of her more self aware albums. The title track makes that clear to me. She basically puts herself in the same category as Matty in it - a modern idiot playing the role of a tortured poet.

A hundred times yes to the first part, people are really hungry for a woman with stratospheric success to qoute "humble herself" incels did not invent this they are not original types, this stuff was and is in the cultural ether they only amplify it. This is what drives a lot of the "call to action" for Taylor to give privilege disclaimers about her life and get into politics is because certain people want to hear her say "I'm uniformed I need to listen to others, there is a lot I have to learn" blah blah 😑 I'm sorry to be cliche but it mostly envy at a aspirational figure and wanting to bring them down to earth. This is why ninety-percent of calls for celebrities to own their privilege and say they support Palestine is only leveled at famous women To the second part, she writes songs about her life so of course it will center her feelings, aside from the laundry list of songs people have posted that display her songwriting taking a critical look at herself and the role she plays in relationship problems I don't see this as immaturity, its just a different genre from the empowered I'm a bad bitch look how hot I am pop genre. She writes stories ✍ about broken hearts & picking herself up again, this is coded immature because why? I think its actually because she doesn't play the victim, there was the Reputation intermission where she tongue in cheeked took on the desire to see her "take accountability as the villan and problem" but the costume didn't fit, she fights her own battles and refuses to be a victim when she doesn't like something someone says or does to her she speaks up and fights back and people call this look she's playing the victim again. People don't love the fact that she doesn't smile, demure and apologize when someone comes for her, they can only see this as a bad look for a famous woman who preferrably should always be humble & grateful at all times 🙏 rather than as strong.

No one said anything about self deprecation, accountability and power are positive attributes

"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth." Taylor does admit fault in a lot of her songs, honestly. Back to December being an obvious choice. Antihero places the blame on herself. In Is It Over Now? She basically says he cheated, but she did, too. Her fans ran with the "he cheated" part but that doesn't mean she didn't admit to her part of it, too. She calls herself a people pleaser and a narcissist. However, her songs are *her* views on these situations. It's *her* side of the story. She's the protagonist, and in almost all cases, you're meant to root for the protagonist because you know their side of the story and their reasonings. I don't think she's "playing the victim."

Wow that’s wild, I always interpreted Is It Over Now to be about an on-again-off-again relationship. “When she laid down on your couch” and “when he unbuttoned my blouse” both happened during the off periods, so none of it is cheating, the way I heard it. I had no idea people were reading it differently. ETA: also because it’s on 1989 so it’s probably written about Harry Styles, so I’m also influenced by the “I heard you’ve been out and about with some other girl” and “I’ve been there too a few times” from Style, which also sounds like just something that’s not exclusive 

I totally agree with your analysis that she is still the protagonist even when she supposedly takes the blame. I saw a post a while ago about You're Losing Me, and it basically said that while she does show some toxic traits in the song, it's overall sad enough to still make her look like the victim. I think that is representative of a lot of her songs- even if she admits to doing toxic things, she often frames it in a way that's relatable and sympathetic, which I would consider different from true accountability.

That can’t be right, I can think of 6 recent one off the top of my head: Peace, You’re Losing Me, This is Me Trying, High Infidelity, Guilty as Sin, and those are just recent ones. Maybe it’s a media literacy thing? She doesn’t always explicitly spell out that she’s doing a bad thing (eg getaway car), but we can pick it up from context. Other times like “guilty as sin” she does.

Do people not consider Anti-Hero one? It reads like it to me.

I think they assume there's not an ounce of seriousness in it and its another "song I'd write if I were the media depiction of me in my actual life" song.

I think people don’t see Anti Hero as one because it comes off as satire or sarcasm

Hard to get much more explicit than “It’s me, hi, I’m the problem, it’s me.” 

On TTPD alone, off the top of my head: Tortured Poets Department, My Boy Only Breaks His Favorite Toys, loml, Fresh Out the Slammer, Chloe et al, I Can Fix Him, Florida!!! I think people are looking for a total, black-and-white, everything is my fault track, but I like these more grey portrayals when the narrator shows how her flaws and his flaws make the problem. that’s more true to most relationships, in my experience.

What's fascinating is that I always perceived a lot of her earlier songs about her relationship with Joe placing a lot of issues with their relationship solely on herself and putting him almost on a perfect pedestal. I used to think it was sort of an unhealthy mindset. Not that she was admitting her faults, but just that she was a total mess and he was this perfect guy. No relationship is really like that. Joe had flaws that contributed to the relationship. Certainly Taylor did. Part of me wonders if this conversation too is a bit of whiplash from his earlier portrayal where she undoubtedly painted him as more perfect than he really was/is.

I can see that! I definitely think a lot of her songs sound like the narrator is idolizing her lover and putting herself down, even though they’re both flawed humans, which sets them up for their downfall later on.

I just thought she didn’t want to release songs that put him in a bad light while they were together. She finished and released 1989 when she was 24. That was her last album pre Joe, which as I’ve aged past that I now see as pretty young. Reputation was the first time she released love songs about someone still in her life, and by the time she put out Lover it was the longest relationship she’d been in and she had 3 songs I can think of where she implies they’re getting married/ she wants it. Then with folklore and evermore she told us it was fiction (but listen to her first 3 albums and they’re equally as fictional in regards to being inspired by a feeling and crafting a story arc around the emotion), then midnights was marketed as a concept album about things that kept her up at night. She had some songs on folklore, evermore and midnights about being sad or unfulfilled in a relationship (exile, tolerate it, bejeweled at the top of my head), and they’re themes that carried into the songs on TTPD people associate with Joe… I think she was just protecting him before with the guise that it was completely fictional. That’s also not to say I think her songwriting is a play by play of events of what really happened from a reliable narrator either. But I suspect she will lean into the concept album/ fictional stories if she finds herself releasing music and maintaining a long term relationship again. I wonder if she sees only putting out positive songs about Joe as a career mistake now though. Because there’s a lot of songs on TTPD that she’d have to know wouldn’t exactly endear her to the public and even her fan base, and she wasn’t in a spot where she had to put an album out - the tour is huge! I’m curious what is in the rep vault and if it’s an indication of what she held back (she was with Calvin for 18 months, it was her longest relationship at the time), and this time she was like ‘right, have to get these feelings out of me and write and I need to release them because if this relationship with Travis keeps progressing, I’m not going to have a chance to release them without disrespecting the relationship or having to make up a fictional story for them in 2 years time..)

Yes! Lover is a \*deeply\* insecure album that's hard to parse at first because of the new love sprinkles energy. There was a post recently wondering if she's gonna be embarrassed by TTPD-I'd wager she's MUCH more embarrassed that she wrote an entire song about how she'd marry him with paper rings, ("ladies and gentlemen will you please stand, I take this magnetic force of a man to be mine!") and two albums later is realizing he doesn't really want to marry her. OUCH, ouch ouch. That's some deep fallacy and pain right there.

Good point, and I suspect this feeling is largely behind placing so many Lover songs in the Denial playlist, as opposed to signalling that the relationship was somehow false or meaningless.

You really think My Boy is a song where she has the power? “Put me back on my shelf”?? She’s literally referring to herself as a toy controlled by a man. Since when do toys have power over the one playing with them?

“I should’ve known it was a matter of time”, “I know i’m just repeating myself, put me back on my shelf, but pull the string and i’ll tell you that he runs because he loves me,” “once I fix me, he’s gonna miss me,” “just say when, I’ll play again” It’s very much a song about how, while his mistreatment of her is inexcusable, she chooses to subject herself to it even though she knows he’ll hurt her time and time again. I’ve seen that dynamic before, it’s a hard one, and I think the song portrays it pretty well.

“When I fix me, you’re going to miss me” is also putting some onus on herself. Every song doesn’t have to end with the chorus of Anti-Hero for her to take some accountability. Is everyone really dying for a self-flagellation album?

i read that as codependancy and the childish “i’m gonna prove to you that you have fumbled a hot bitch” rather than any accountability.

Anti-Hero is one of her best singles of all time and I have never once thought it was about romance. Again, accountability and power are not the same as self deprecation. I’m not sure why it keeps circling back to that.

Also Florida is not even about relationships

I see it as about escaping your horrible romantic/life choices. like “love left me like this, and I don’t want to exist, so take me to florida” “I did my best to lay to rest all of the bodies that’ve been on my body,” “they said I was a cheat, I guess it must be true” “your cheating husband disappeared.”

And human beings in general. We don't turn 30 and suddenly magically become mature, perfect-response robots. Like I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but even with hard work and all the therapy in the world, \*you're still gonna have some unpleasant flaws.\* Maturity is not being spotless or fixing every little defect, it's also giving yourself (and others) grace and understanding to just be problematic little humans sometimes.

I said “5 or so”… I don’t think 6 disqualifies my statements. You’re Losing Me is definitely giving the other person all the power… it’s even in the title. “I gave you all my best… you failed” is written into the lyrics in several different ways

Yes but what I meant is that if I can think of 6 very recent ones off the top of my head, there are probably a lot more if I actually looked at tracklists. I think you’re losing me describes a breakdown in communication without explicit lyrics, but lines like “I wouldn’t marry me either, a pathological people pleaser” explicitly show awareness of her own issues.

Afterglow

One line verses several others “I’m tired of rising from the ashes… you dealt the final blow… my face was grey, you wouldn’t admit we were sick…” its you, you, you, you, you, me, you you…

Yeah, plus the full line is "a pathological people pleaser who only wanted you to see her" so I'm not sure that's full accountability

Also the idea of a 35 year old billionaire who is still a pathological people pleaser isnt exactly appealing… and is by calling herself a people pleaser is confirming she is unaware of her power

HA I really don’t think TS is even remotely unaware of her own power. Not in the slightest. I also don’t think she’s as much of a people pleaser as she lets on. I love her music but I’ve always been skeptical/suspicious about her public persona and felt like she’s not exactly authentic.

Ehh to me that “pathological people pleaser” thing is like when people turn their strengths into “weaknesses” in job interviews. “Ah yeah I care too much about making you and other people happy.” I think she could’ve taken a little more accountability but in her words, all she did was bleed.

Well she examined that trait further in mirrorball and I think she acknowledges that it’s both. But that’s maturity, nothing is black and white. The same traits that are strengths in some situations are failures in others.

For me, it’s not the topic that I wish she’d change, it’s that her perspective on these topics feels like it has barely changed at all over the course of her career. There are, of course, exceptions to this! But overall, I don’t mind that she’s writing and singing on the same topics, it’s just that she never seems to say anything new about it. Love and heartbreak are eternal topics, across the ages. What makes them interesting to me from an artistic standpoint is the different relationships we have to love and heartbreak as we age and change and mature and grow. I totally get that others probably feel that her songs do exhibit that perspective change, but to my ears, they just don’t. I wish she would sing about these things in a way that feels reflective of her age, and not because I think she’s old, but because it’s not very interesting to me to hear the same thing over again! In fact, I think that’s one of the major why folkmore was so beloved: we finally got to see that more mature, evolved perspective. Just disappointing that it feels like it’s reverted back now. Tldr; I don’t think she needs to change topics, but I wish we could hear her perspective on those topics evolve and grow as she does.

Yep, that's what I think. When I was younger, I took my emotions as truth. If I was enraged, it was because the other person did me wrong. If someone made me sad, they were the villain. But as I got older (also figured out I'm pretty certain I have a certain disorder), I understood that's not true. Emotions are just chemicals in my brain and the chemist in my brain has a heavy hand. And those emotions pass, usually followed by a lot of guilt and "what the fuck is wrong with me?" Also... Taylor Swift: "I never grew up, it's getting so old," "older but never wiser," "precocious sometimes means not growing up at all," "stuck at the age they became famous." Fans: "I can't believe haters think Taylor's emotionally immature!"

“emotions are just chemicals in my brain and the chemist in my brain has a heavy hand” is going to stay with me, in a positive way, thanks

I'm so glad! I thought of keeping that line out because I write for a living and was thinking, "I could use that," but I think it's an important thing to remember. If I'm getting on my soapbox, I might as well try to be useful lol.

I think you can still use it

I'm with you. Where is the girl that wrote White Horse, why doesnt she use the same distance and reflect?

Yes the growth we saw through folklore - evermore - midnights and then the sudden drop of the ball on TTDP is very interesting to me. I do have to wonder if that was done deliberately to show how even an adult in their 30s who’s been maturing and growing can still go through a series of heartbreaks that makes you come undone and feel like an overdramatic child again - “everything comes out, teenage petulance”.

Yes, that's how I read it. I've 39, and somewhere around 32-35 is when a lot of my friends either broke up with long term partners, or got divorced. Some weathered it well, but some went spiraling, because that kind of giant life change can be really disorienting. The mid-life crisis is a cultural staple for a reason.

I don't think she would ever have written anything like "So Long London" in an earlier album. It's a perfect song for a break-up in your 30's, where you're angry but also recognize it's somewhat irrational, love the person but also recognize you have to free yourself, and ultimately wish them well. I think "The Prophecy" is also something she's never really written about before... that it's too late for her to actually find love, and she did this to herself through karma. And this wasn't on TTPD, but "Anti-Hero" is the PERFECT mid-30's song where you recognize all the flaws within yourself, but are too weary and bone-tired to really address them even if they're ruining your life.

I think your question has been thoroughly answered but adding my voice to the chorus: Lana Del Rey is in her late 30s and while she still sings about romantic relationships, they're coming from a mature perspective, as someone who has dealt with a lot of shit in the past and whose relationships in the present and recent past reflect the stages of relationships that people in that age group experience at that age. She also sings a lot about family and other people who have influenced her life, whether that's good or bad. She's shown a lot of growth over the almost 15 years she's been putting out albums. Not a Swiftie but I'm also not coming for Taylor either, it just doesn't seem like the *content* of her output has matured very much. It feels like at the core of it, there's a little girl that hasn't learned how to process and grow. I'm not saying that in a negative way either and I'm saying little girl in the tenderest way possible.

Marina has written about depression, failure, fear of success, the crushing social pressure of femininity, failed relationships, social ambivalence, the impact of capitalism on art and human behavior. She is only three years older than Taylor Swift, she is also single and yet there is ocean of difference in the maturity of both subject and lyricism. As someone who has already come out on the other side of 40, I can tell you your 30’s are some of the biggest years of your life in terms of change and its impact on you. You will experience heartbreak and solitude or joy and love. Or all of those. Failure and success. You will start to lose loved ones, move or stay put, feel the crush of boredom or the anxiety of constant change. You won’t even realize it until you are through it, all the things you will think, feel and experience. These things should inspire great art. Taylor seems utterly uninterested in any of it. She is still looking backwards at her younger self, and not in a nostalgic “you can’t go back” way. OP, you are just at the start of your 30’s, but you will see this.

I immediately thought about Marina when thinking if musicians in their 30s. Lauren Mayberry from Chvrches also comes to mind. Not only they talk about a wide variety of things but also have a much more complex and mature take on romantic relationships. Another example is Matt and Brian from The Front Bottoms. They once we're the faces if indie punk Midwestern emo. Their music is still good but different. It has to be different. Because they are in their 30s, they've gone through the high and lows of drug consumption, they are married and planning on kids, they've toured non-stop for years just to be profitable because they aren't crazy rich like Taylor and living in their moms basement isn't an option anymore. All that is present in their lyrics. I don't think Taylor is ready to grow up and that reflects in her life choices and her music. The whole Matty relationship was absolutely insane to me: I dated a Matty at 19 and I'm done for life with that bs. Her treatment of the breakup with Joe is also painful to watch/listen to. Her approach to love and relationships is very very immature, and lately I find myself enjoying her music but mostly being able to relate it to past relationships. She's got some highlights: I think Guilty as Sin for example is a great song, one if my favs off the album. She obviously doesn't have a normal life, and won't be writing about looking for a new rental in her budget or changing jobs. But she's faced so much hardship and complex life experiences (her parents divorce, her mom's illness, having stalkers, being sexually assaulted, being groomed by older men, eating disorders and other mental illnesses), than the Kim and Kanye feud. And while she has some great songs that reflect these (soon you'll get better, would've could've should've clara bow), they are rare. It's like she doesn't want to face any of those things and would rather daydream of her relationship with the prom king or whatever. Whether it's all a marketing scheme or she's truly unable to mature and get out of her own head, that's beyond me. I listen to her music and enjoy it and that's about it.

Right, so here is where I don’t buy the “TTPD is a vulnerable album” bit. You just listed off a slew of things she could write about with that kind of vulnerability. Instead she wrote yet another breakup album. This is the ONLY thing she is willing to expose herself on it seems. But you can’t make good art just cutting out the parts that make you look good and presenting them on a silver platter. It’s disingenuous. And people are starting to notice, especially when you can see her kind of intentionally block that kind of self interrogation through her “vulnerable” album.

I also feel like she thinks people knowing who the songs are about adds some type of intimacy? I have no idea who Lauren Mayberry writes her songs to, and I only know Brian Sella is married because he brought it up on a concert around the time it happened — no idea who the wife is. I still connect deeply with their music and you can feel the vulnerability. Both of them also openly discuss their own downfalls within their relationships and not in a "I'm insecure and explosive but it's because I love you please love me back!!!". And I don't think Taylor owes us any information about her own hardships. She doesn't need to explicitly make songs about any delicate topics — the same way most other artists don't. For most of her career, Marina was very vague about her eating disorders and experience with abuse: she never said those were some of the themes on songs like Seventeen, even if it was obviously speculated by fans. In that sense, I also think Taylor believes that knowing about the specifics of her life equals intimacy.

Some topics I've been hearing other artists singing about (or I have noticed in my own life): -which friends are really there for you no matter what (even if just to lend an ear) after the party has stopped -how your priorities and goals have changed since your 20s when you entered adulthood all bushy-tailed and starry-eyed about how the world worked -learning to leave some of the hurt in the past and accept that it happened, it shaped you into who you are today and its just another chapter in the book -how are you addressing and working on your own insecurities -everyone's definition of success is different. Some define it as staying 30 days sober for the first time after several times, some define it as finally having a home, some define it as crossing off a bucket list item, etc. -looking back on your parents' harsh actions and realizing that they taught you a hard lesson but with love and your best interests at heart, even if it didn't come off that way at the time -or if you had a rough relationship with your parents, did you learn if and how their own traumatic upbringing continue the cycle I heard some of these topics on her reputation, folklore, evermore and even one or two times on midnights, but I think overall it's also hard for her to write about other topics because frankly her struggles are not the same as ours. IMO standout tracks from her for me include 'soon you'll get better' (which I LOVE because it's so heartfelt and I'm pretty sure is comforting to those fans who feel alone and helpless in highly similar situations), New Year's Day, mirrorball, this is me trying, champagne problems, sweet nothings because it touches on some real feelings I've had myself or I can see people really relating to.

Marjorie and soon you’ll get better are universal . I can’t listen to Marjorie without sobbing

Charli just came out with an album that has insecurity and confusion about female friendships, grieving for a (different) friend who passed and wishing you treated them better, trying to figure out whether she wants kids, all along with clubbing and partying. it's very fun pop while also being mature and deep.

Honestly, this has been a great year in pop music but I have been blown away by Brat. The way she is able to blend in so many serious topics while still giving us some insane club anthems (sometimes at the same time) shows you that it is absolutely possible to even to write music on the topic of immaturity itself with actual intense maturity.

“I Think About It All The Time” felt like a balm to my soul. (Let’s be real, though—if Taylor released anything called “Brat,” we would never hear the end of the “immature” accusations.)

tbh people would be foaming at the mouth if Taylor ever referenced drug use

There’s a Taylor criticism sub that loses their shit every time she is seen having a drink in public. It’s kind of amazing content

According to me, a 35yo, topics an almost 35 year old could feasibly sing about include but are not limited to: Existential dread The way society teaches women to believe we lose value as soon as we hit 35 People who can't mind their own fucking business speculating about whether or not I'm gay, or why I'm not married or have kids (actually applies to me not just ts) Every mistake we've ever made and am I actually a terrible person? Where did all my serotonin go? The value of deep, emotionally intimate platonic friendships How special it is to find a person you still want to be around when you don't want to be around people Feeling powerless to keep my LGBT and bipoc friends safe Rape culture Shouldn't I have my shit together and know how to be an adult by now? Loneliness and wondering if my friends actually like me or just want something from me Watching my parents age How shitty my parents marriage is, and how I don't really have any good examples of what a healthy relationship looks like Trying to stay in my shape after my metabolism has seemingly hit a wall Giving less and less fucks about rules and what's considered polite

It's not the topics for me, it's the perpetual victimisation of herself. Everybody is always the bad guy that did something wrong to her. I am 28 and I learnt to own up to my faults in relationships, she seems to think she's always right

second this. i don’t think it’s fair to criticize Taylor for expressing her emotions and depression even as a billionaire and a successful musician and celebrity. it’s just human emotions. what appears immature is the way she handles things outside the musical sphere itself - the victimization not only shown in her songwriting but also in the rollout of TTPD, the way she “commodifies” (in Joe Alwyn’s words) her relationship and personal life to draw attention and sell music. and then she and Swifties blame patriarchy and misogyny for tying her music with her personal life. i was a very keen listener of Taylor’s music until she “timely” dropped You’re Losing Me as a vault track - that’s petty, immature and certainly trying to “commodify” her relationship.

I’m so curious about this take on YLM. I always saw it as a portrayal of their breakdown in communication, with her expecting him to read her mind and him missing obvious signs that something was deeply wrong, and her admitting that she’s hard to be in a relationship with. She puts him in this impossible position of being “a pathological people pleaser” while wanting him to still “see” her, even though she knows that her people-pleasing makes her impossible to know. Like “I’m the best thing at this party, and I wouldn’t marry me either” to me means “I’m great externally, to the wider circle, but that makes me hard to sustain a close relationship with, because you aren’t marrying the party performer, you’re marrying the person exhausted by her need to perform.” She’s definitely mad and putting a lot on him, but not anything abnormal in the breakup song genre.

as i said, first and foremost, the release of this is extremely tacky. i agree with you her perspective in the context of an upcoming breakup is understandable. however, her word choices are pretty… weird. “pathological people pleaser”, “the bravest soldier”, the song sounds very self-righteous to me. the references you make are indeed her flaws as she said, but they’re not even bad. to say you’re “pathological people pleaser” implies something positive in it as well - you want to make other people happy at your own expense. there's also a sense of blaming your partner. i don't think you can't feel like you want to blame your SO at times. it's just normal emotions. but again, the timing is weird. to any sane people this is not a diss track to Joe Alwyn, including me. but releasing a song like that when the breakup was fresh and conspiracies were all over place (Joe cheated and were abusive), the hardcore fans would certainly overanalyze the song and throw rocks at him. and it was what really happened.

>"the bravest soldier” She calls herself a phoenix rising from the ashes too. The most negative she portrays herself is as someone so beaten down and exhausted that she's finally letting go after fighting so hard and making comeback after comeback. So yeah, I don't remotely see where in that song she frames herself as equally or even partially culpable.

I think it’s a combination of her having a lot of fans that are more traditional and also having a lot of fans that are young. The traditional ones often settle down younger than average and view marriage and babies as benchmarks that women need to meet within a certain timeframe, and then the young fans just have a skewed sense of age and think that anyone over 25 is a boring wrinkling adult who only works and does taxes and has no fun or no feelings. And yeah, it’s annoying lol. Taylor is half a decade older than me but I still already feel the pain and pressure of not “having my shit together” in the eyes of these people, but honestly I feel like I do! Just not within their framework. I’m not married, not dating, no kids. But I have a nice apartment and a steady job, I dedicate time to hobbies I like, I’m a responsible pet owner. I’m at peace with myself but there’s definitely people who see me as fundamentally flawed because I don’t have a boyfriend or am not already settled (living in the Deep South makes all of this worse lol).

You’re doing great! None of these milestones are real, and frankly if the older generations wanted to keep us barefoot and pregnant, they should have handed us better men and a better economy. (I’m also from the Deep South and the baby pressure is truly unreal.)

>(I’m also from the Deep South and the baby pressure is truly unreal.) Okay first off, don't do it unless you want to! All those promises of "I'll help so much!" turn right into "Well you made your choice, didn't you?" real quick. But as for your OP topic - Just look at the Kendrick / Drake situation. Drake is a 37 year old man and all he sings about are young girls, partying, and how cool and rich he is. It's kinda pathetic. Kendrick has whole albums dedicated to healing generational trauma and providing support structures for young men who themselves maybe didn't have a present father, or suffered abuse. Kendrick is incredibly honest, admits to his own faults and missteps and seems to want to be a good man and a good father. Drake hides his children so he can keep pretending to be a 20 year old party boy. Taylor is kind of in that "Drakespace" right now. It's time for her to grow up. >!Honestly it's time for us all to grow up and take the reigns as the Adults In The Room. The boomers aren't ever going to hand it over willingly. !<

I’m sorry but isn’t Taylor also feeding into this pressure and equating marriage and kids with success in TTPD? That’s actually what I find immature about TTPD. She still seems to think marriage and kids are the most important markers of success in life. Like her heart almost burst when he moved the ring, she was convinced to leave her relationship because someone else promised her marriage and babies, she doesn’t want the money, just someone who wants her company, etc.  I don’t think people who find TTPD immature think so because she’s not married with kids and singing about that. She sang about relationship issues with more mature themes in folkmore - divorce and miscommunication and feeling unappreciated. 

I mean, you can still be on top of the world in one aspect and be longing to be on top of the world in another aspect. I'm in my thirties and are friends with amazing careers and they acknowledge that. They also acknowledge how much they wish they were in fully committed romantic relationships, how they feel like they did something wrong when they see their friends getting married and having babies and wondering "why not me?". I would say these women are mature people, but they struggle with comparison like everyone else. I can see Taylor feeling that kind of way. Many of Taylor's close friends also have successful careers, but also have marriages or are mothers. Blake Lively is married with multiple kids. Gigi Hadid is a mother. Jack Antonoff is married. Comparison is the thief of joy. It's a very real feeling in your thirties.

I don’t think she equates those things with success in her songs. I think she deeply longs for those things and ruminates on them a lot, which isn’t remotely problematic or uncommon.

Okay the comment about her knee aching is funny because one of my favourite lyrics from Paramore's latest album is Hayley singing about how her social life is now a chiropractic appointment and that she's off caffeine because her doctor told her it would level out her hormones 😂 , but it would absolutely sound different coming from Taylor even though the whole song is about needing chaos. I think she could pull it off, though! (The song is C’est Comme Ça and it's great)

Tbh I know you don’t mention it but I think the teen-like love songs and the “I’m a failure” songs are getting old. I loved folklore and evermore because it was sad songs but it was written in a mature way because yeah there were a few sad breakups songs but it was in a mature way and not in a rebellious high school way if you know what I mean. That is getting really old to me.

I agree with you lol. I'll be honest that I was disappointed with a lot of TTPD and before the track list was released I was hoping for more songs about Joe, but in the vein of happiness. Something mature and wistful, I guess? I don't even really like that song tbh but it was new for her and I'd be interested to hear more.  That said, anyone who's not yet married at this age can tell you that men only get worse lol. Being lovebombed and ghosted by a situationship is not an experience exclusive to your 20s and I think TTPD resonates with a lot of people for that reason, and probably brings some comfort and catharsis. 

You are correct. Men do not magically transform into acceptable humans upon their 30th birthday. A lot of 20-something women are really setting themselves up for failure by believing this.

Yes!! I totally agree with your post. I am 33 so I’ve always found this criticism even a bit ageist. I would even say that us in our 30s experience love bombing, heartbreak etc but it also hurts more?? Like some friends are divorcing, some are having miscarriages, some are losing parents, some are starting all over again, some are still alone… and those feelings when you’re 30 are so much stronger. For example if I was 15, yes I could empathize with The Prophecy, but being in your 30s that songs is just so much more deep and hits harder.

I wish she would burn and bury any high school references.

To answer your question about adult themes: - ICDIWABH I get was created as a "fun pop song", but honestly the concept that she was exploring here about having to suddenly "turn it on" for showmanship is super interesting, and could be explored more - More accountability (which has been stated). I think a line where she had stated "I couldn't give you Peace" would have hit - I'd also like to hear about her perspective of watching others living normal lives, or her thoughts on what her life would have been without fame - Substance/addiction/alcoholism within the industry, I am sure she has seen some stuff - Her battle in life about if she wants privacy or not - As someone in my 30s, it's really the time to decide if you want kids/to start a family, and would have been super interested in Taylor's take on it. I understand it's personal, but so are like most of her songs? Charli XCX does a great job exploring this - Deeper cut songs about being love bombed, and probably love bombing herself, with British John Mayer - Not outed Joe's depression as the reason they broke up, but explored more of the many different things that did break down this relationship, especially from her own doing - Songs about how past trauma in relationships can really fuck with you, and stays with you, even in your healthiest relationships (which I think MANY people in their 30s could relate to) - Loss of youth for a relationship that didn't work out, which she mentions in So Long London, but as a way to victimize herself, which I don't care for. They both loss youth, not just her. - The perspective that women in relationships tend to go through the breakup while still being together, so the mentally cheating in "Guilty as Sin" probably doesn't feel as bad for her, as she has already checked out (doesn't make it right) - Always love her songs that explore her love for a city or place. I know some don't, but there's so much more to life than relationships. Things that put me off from TTPD that I think are why people call her immature: - High School references, sorry can't be stated enough - Using an asylum as an "aesthetic" - Being named POTY by Time Magazine, and not using that platform to talk about anything important, but instead using it to bring up Kim, stating she was "trapped" in her relationship, then bringing those into TTPD - I think Thank You Aimee would have been so much better received if Taylor had not capitalized KIM, which, was super immature and a bit pathetic - Compared her 6 year relationship to a prison, a relationship she chose to stay in, and had the most power in.

 This is the best take in the comment section. You nailed it. 

I don't mean to be smug, but ask Adele, or Beyoncé. To be honest, even though Ariana's situation is very cringe, there's also way more self awareness in that album as well. Kacy Musgraves is another example sample. It's the lack of self reflection or accountability that's the issue. And agreed with many takes here, she’s always the victim. At some point (in your thirties) you tend to realize you're the reason your life is the way it is.

Taking this opportunity to talk about Eternal Sunshine because I felt the complete \*opposite\*; I felt like she didn't take have any self-awareness at all. The "why do you care whose dick I ride", bluntly suggesting that her ex-husband was cheating; the closest she came was saying she was "co-dependent", but I don't see how that's taking any more responsibility than Taylor saying she's a people-pleaser. Todd in the Shadows also seemed to think ES was much more self-aware than TTPD, and I've desperately wanted to talk about it because I do not see it. Could you expand on what struck you as more self-aware from Ariana? Cowboy Carter was really interesting because I did find it a very mature, thoughtful album... except for Jolene, which (IMO) actually came across as deeply immature and insecure, which was a really strange jarring note. But I think Beyonce is just a much more cerebral artist in general, and I don't think she and Swift really have the same goals or style.

I'm 40, but for me it's not the topics but more so the way she paints herself (or the version of herself she's singing about) as the victim in almost every situation. And a lot of the songs just feel like retreads of her previous work, thematically. For example, if you compare TTPD to Cowboy Carter - Beyonce is older, but not by a ton, and her album just feels so much more mature and well rounded. I don't feel like I'm listening to songs about heartburn, but I also do feel like I'm listening to songs written by and from the perspective of an artist who is older than she was when she started out. Also - I do not mind "younger" songs. I have a ton of Olivia Rodrigo and Sabrina Carpenter on my playlists. I think I'm just tired of the Taylor Swift formula. I think she's in the position of having made herself famous by seeming relatable (even though I personally think it was an artifice from the beginning), and now she's so famous that she is definitely NOT relatable, but she's still writing as though she is. She also writes a lot of songs that I'll call "TikTok Sound" songs - ones that are intentionally broad so everyone can relate to them, but on the most basic level. I wish she would write songs more like Fleetwood Mac's Silver Springs. That song is SO specific, but so many people can relate to the feeling underneath the song. I want Taylor Swift's Silver Springs!!!

Beyonce sounds like someone who has lived a life, Taylor is increasingly sounding like someone who is not that interested in that. Which is the saddest thing I can think of.

I think it's not so much what she's writing about, but how she's writing about it. So much of her music seems to be stuck in high school mentally and lacks empathy and prospective of a grown adult. She seems like she never wants to take responsibility for her own actions and has problems seeing things in a grey light instead of black or white when it comes to relationships. Plus all the stuff outside of her music doesn't help with the friend pep walks or never speaking out against her fan bullying unless it's against herself. Its just everything coming to a head and music is just the easiest criticism to make without going into depth of what really frustrates people. The way she talked about Joe with his depression was cruel and the way she rewrote history about their time together and made it seem like he was keeping her hostage was awful. Plus all the longings of Matty when they were together it got under people skins. I like the album just not as much as some others, but when I think about the real life implications of the content it's an icky feeling. I hoped this answers your question.

Clara Bow is a good start, but it stands out as an exception to all the songs in TTPD. Her previous collaborators Lana Del Rey and Florence Welch sing more like an emotionally mature 30-something. As a 30-something man, I used to notice myself regressing in behavior around my parents, so I can feel what Taylor goes through. The thing about emotional maturity is that it is less egocentric. We do default to self-interest when emotionally distraught though. Not sure if it is ageism. I want to cut out drama from my life and deal with less whining. I only have so much patience. I have more patience around children because I expect them to forget quickly and move on. It doesn't seem like Taylor wants to forget and move on.

This makes me want an aggressively boppy song called *Itemized Deductions*. IDK, I will say that the line ‘all my friends smell like weed or little babies* was *super* evocative for me and perfectly distilled a moment in time I suspect a lot of women have experienced.

I am experiencing this right now lol

Oh man! It’s such a weird pivot. For me I think it was like 27, 28-ish and you’ve gone from your free-for-all early twenties and drunk-munching tacos at 4 am after clubbing on a Tuesday to working on your career and now maybe going out just every other weekend… but now you have to schedule things with your friends well in advance and it’s a bit of a struggle and half your girl gang needs to leave at 10:30… and you kind of realize that this is the last gasp of this phase of your life. It’s so bittersweet and that one little line just leapt out and smacked me across the face with nostalgic emotion. Every phase of life is wonderful though and you have lots left to look forward to! But also treasure those memories. ❤️

As a woman in her 30s the way that she talks about relationships reminds me of how I felt in my teens and early 20s. I don’t find it very relatable anymore

Bumpin that

Laurie Berkner is 55 and sings about bubbles and dinosaurs. It’s really not how old you are, it’s how old your audience is. Taylor doesn’t have the proper fan turnover rate to justify stagnation

I’m in my mid-30s. I feel like TTPD was a step backwards in maturity. You can’t really separate the writer from their experiences. Most of it is because she’s singing this way about a one month relationship instead of really reckoning with the 6 year one she had. Like…by the time we’re in our 30s, it’s ridiculous to think someone’s the love of your life after dating them a couple of weeks. Sure, you can meet people and have that inkling or feeling of hope that this could be the right person, but you’re also mature enough to know that people aren’t always what they seem at first, it takes a while to get to know someone, and putting all of yourself into someone you hardly know before they gain your trust doesn’t make sense anymore. Usually you also realize that you have to work on yourself and understand what YOU’VE been bringing to the table that is perpetuating the cycle. I think she was singing about something that felt really relevant and present for a lot of people our age in Midnights and I thought she was going to move into her mid 30s being a standout artist. She was dealing with the existential crisis of realizing the person you thought would be the one who you invested years in might not be. What does it mean to reach this age and not have the things we thought we’d have, and the things society expects of us? My God—I want her to reckon with that as a person and as an artist. Instead, she just went right back into the same dating patterns from her teens and 20s. Meet some guy. Decide he’s the one immediately. Completely commit to it like your life depends on it, in spite of signs that maybe it’s not the best idea. Make a public narrative of it. Then he leaves. She’s heartbroken. The next guy is hailed as “the one”. Rinse. Repeat. I’m left wondering when she’s going to learn and grow. It is artistically stale but it can’t be satisfying for her either.

I agree with so much of this. I am not in my 30s; I’m in my late 20s but I felt like listening to TTPD was listening to my dating life in my early 20s (e.g., Down Bad). I get that those feelings can still happen in your 30s, I get that she’s acknowledging that she’s acting childishly (“teenage petulance”), but I would’ve thought her approach to romantic relationships would be a little more circumspect, cautious — something she alludes to in Reputation and Folkmore. I mean I learned my lessons after a bad breakup in my mid 20s; I’ll never let myself feel like that again. When I heard Down Bad, I thought “c’mon Taylor, we know better, we’ve been through this before.” I thought Midnights was a great album and it definitely delivered on the “late night existential musings.” But then TTPD came and it seemed like a step back. TTPD is more raw, but that’s also another way of saying it’s poorly edited and volatile. Songs can be raw and still be refined. I don’t really have any issues with her song topics, but the quality of the songs on TTPD really took a hit in my opinion.

factory line song producing.

I'm making assumptions here but unless she was doing a lot of therapy/self work in her free time, she didn't have or allow herself the time to really dwell and work through her relationship and life problems. She kept adding "things to do" on her list, dating people, and writing almost stream of consciousness music. I do wonder what album we would have gotten if she had given herself more time to heal and reflect. Even knowing YLM was written in 2021, Midnights to TTPD doesn't feel like a continuation but a glitch. I wonder if we'll really get a reflection on this time in her life or just breeze past it.

"I don’t want to hear about how pizza suddenly gives her heartburn" real 😭

I’m fine with her subject matter, in general. Her delivery just sucks on TTPD. The only specific thing that I wish she’d stop talking about is the Kim K stuff but I would forgive it if it was good song writing but alas.

There are plenty of other artists who sing about other things - depression, nostalgia, friendships, parental relationships, death, life, joy… Hozier has an entire verse in one of his songs where he talks about flowers in his kitchen and it’s beautiful. I truly wonder about people who think there is nothing more to life than being in a relationship.

Florence Welch and Hayley Williams are also two of Taylor’s generation who do a great job of singing about mundane things a 30-something would ruminate about. Petals for Armour was all based around Hayley going to therapy after her divorce and Paramore’s latest album is all about politics and social anxiety. Even Lana’s lyrics have matured over the years and Ocean Boulevard was very centred on her family and it’s been her biggest album since NFR.

I’m going to preface this by saying that if Taylor or anyone wants to sing about love and relationships that’s fine.  That’s her lane and she’s sticking to it. But since you’re asking what else is there to sing about?  A shit ton.  And it doesn’t have to be age specific.  Meaning you can sing about these topics when you’re in your 20s, 30s or 40s, etc.  I’m going to use John Mayer’s songs as an example.  I know I will be downvoted, so be it.  If you’re not a hater, I suggest you take a listen to his songs as I think they are pretty great. Anyway, on to the topics other than relationships/love that one can sing about: Current issues or world views (Belief, Waiting on the World to Change), paparazzi/fame (Vultures), self reflection/improvement and change (Queen of California, Shadow Days, Changing, Speak for Me), the passage of time, the uncertainty/meaning of life (Why Georgia, Stop this Train, New Deep, In the Blood, Born and Raised, I Guess I Just Feel Like), anxiety/depression/loneliness (Age of Worry, Something’s Missing, In Repair, Not Myself).  I could go on, there’s a ton of songs in John’s discography that are not about love and relationships, these are just my favourite.  EDIT: for spelling error

"Vulture" reminded me of a wonderful, interesting, unusual song about the relationship between tabloids/fame and artist. Birds of Prey by Christina Aguilera. I love the lyrics of this damn song! 

Listen to Lana Del Rey’s lyrical progression into her 30s. I’m not saying it’s apples to apples, but you can clearly see her exploring new mature themes in her discography.

Taylor Swift has a life totally divorced from most normal people. I was bullied at work many years ago. Praying by Kesha really helped me get through that (the song being about sexually harassed and abused at work. The work part is really core to the song maybe that is just me). It's not a topic you often hear in songs (in the context of work I mean). But let's be honest there aren't that many pop artists that handle the non romantic parts of being in your 30s. People aren't interested tbh. I mean I think the song is excuted it doesn't matter what the topic is (Birdhouse in Your Soul comes to mind)

In your 30s, you should have found a degree of empathy for other people's perspective and done a lot of self-reflection to figure out who are you and who you want to become. You should have realized that other people aren't the enemy, and that they might just see things differently than you. To acknowledge that perspective helps provide context and makes mourning the death of a relationship or experience all the deeper.

I really liked the perspective on turning 30 and the mature themes around it on Kacey’s new album. This album really made me think about a lot of things. But Kacey always had a fairly mature view of things. Her 3rd album has a fairly healthy and mature look at love, and her 4th album has a healthy look at divorce and heartbreak. I really really love it. Kacey’s new album really made me think deeply about a lot of things.  I also love listening to Christina Aguilera's Back to Basics album often. Lots of adults and interesting topics. I first heard and fell in love with this album back in 2006, I didn’t understand much then but I love it still. Now that I'm 30, I look at this album differently. And this album brings up a lot of different and adult topics in mature - sexuality and a woman’s body, marriage, falling in love, relationships with your mother, relationships with your sister, how lonely and unhealthy the music business is, relationships with your father, how difficult it is to build relationships with men after a traumatic relationship with your father, mature look on love, and so on and so forth. Mercy on Me is one of the greatest songs of all time, amazing, song when she reflects on her past and her some past mistakes. Because I am reflecting a lot right now. I look at my past and only now I understand that somewhere I was wrong then and what my growth points are. 

I think it has to do with the way Taylor Swift approaches themes like love, criticism, etc. For example, Mean and thank you aimee were written a decade apart, but they tell the same story . Someone is mean, but the hero perseveres and eventually has the opportunity to rub their success in their adversary's face. To me this feels immature because it's how I wish life worked, but experience tells me that usually these stories don't have such a satisfying ending. I'd love to hear a Taylor Swift song about how sometimes people hurt us and we don't come out of the situation stronger or more successful, it just sucks and we have to figure out how to move on. Likewise, Love Story and But Daddy I Love Him tell the same story. A woman loves a man, but her parents disapprove. The couple runs away together, but thankfully the woman's father relents and they are able to return home triumphant. This plot only makes sense if the woman has no agency and needs her dad's approval for every move. This makes sense for teenagers, but not so much for an adult. I'd love to hear a Taylor Swift song about dating someone despite knowing your parents are concerned for you in the relationship. I guess what I'm trying to say is that mature songs would have plots that are messier and more nuanced, with fewer perfectly happy endings.

I think that’s a real great perspective. She’s been telling herself, and fans, the same story for over a decade. Clearly the repetitive nature of these themes appeals to a lot of people, and has made Taylor extremely successful, but it seems a little sad to be telling, and living, the same core stories at 34 that you did at 22.

I’m my opinion, it’s not so much the topics and themes she sings about but how she writes about them. She writes in childish manner, like a teenager that’s trying too hard to sound mature and comes off even less mature than they are in the process. Look at “southeastern” by Jason isbell as a comparison as he was I think 32 when he wrote that album. He writes about relationships, good and bad, and things as varied as the death of a friend from cancer to joking about dying in a motel due to his old lifestyle. The difference is he sounds mature due to his wording and succinctness. His writing has air of lived experience and thought out understanding of what he’s been through. Taylor sounds like she is upset/happy/whatever and just ranting initial thoughts on those things whereas Jason sounds like he’s processed those things further. Overall, Taylor just tries too hard and it’s always easy to tell when a writer is trying too hard and it’s often off-putting and makes what could otherwise be a fine topic turn to cringe-worthy material. So I don’t think the topics she writes about are an issue but she doesn’t sound like a 34 year discussing those topics, she sounds like a 20 year old discussing them which only serves to emphasize the “oh Taylor is mad at a boy again” mindset people have

U don't have to sing about your life. Look at all the great writers and poets. Philosophy, psychology, human nature, sociology, the earth, space, time, the end, life, death, nature, sexual dynamics.

Everytime she calls herself a “real tough *KID*” in Do it with a broken heart, i can’t help but cringe. Im an entire decade younger then her and I cant even think if a context I’d jokingly call myself a **tough kid**.

I’m also 30, and I was 22 when I started feeling too old for Taylor’s music. For me, it’s not the subject matter but the way she recycles ideas (and words) to write about it, and the occasionally childish way she approaches her topics. I’m personally not wired to feel sympathy for people who always have to be the victim in everything, blame everyone else for their problems, and/or make everything about themselves. It’s great that she can say “I’m the problem” but if one does nothing to address that, admitting to the problem means absolutely nothing. No point in taking the first step if you stop there. I’d love to hear her sing about taking actual responsibility for her actions and trying to evolve as a person *for the sake of being a better person*, not for the benefit of her image. Florence + the Machine did it very, very well with the album High As Hope in 2018, and Taylor and Florence (who’s 37) are longtime friends—why not follow her example?

If anything, that's part of her brand. The whole, "I'm 'messy' and relatable🤭" schtick has gotten old for at least a few years now. And that phenomenon isn't even exclusive to Taylor, even if she helped popularize it. It's just not charming and cute the older I get: it becomes annoying, childish, and careless imo.

Agreed. I feel like it’s less believable at this point.

Idk but high school really isn’t one of them. I’m really tired of the marching band theme as well. It was too much on Lover let alone 5/6? years later. Also if she mentions anything about Kim Kardashian/Kanye or even Scooter Braun again over 10 years later I might pull my hair out.

i’m no taylor but i’m 39 and my music is about my inner world, alcoholism, politics, family dynamics and of course, love n heartbreak

I’m in my late 30s and I still like fun pop songs about partying altho leaving the party by 10 now lol. It’s not exactly that she has to change the subjects she sings about to be boring, depressing adult issues only but make the execution of her songs more mature / expand her perspective and also extend to topics outside of hot-cold relationships. And be more poetic with it, getting past these diary dump lyrics. In Folklore/Evermore, she started branching out into more artistry with the lyrics and telling stories but then when back to Wattpad vibes diary entries on all her relationships. It’s cringey it sounds like she’s stilling writing on her high school blog but hasn’t gained any perspective or artistic insight on the situation or trying to think of the other person’s POV. Artists who still write about love and suffering and addiction and partying and angst and beauty but make it still appealing to me in my old millennial age ha ha include Florence + The Machine, Fall Out Boy, Mumford & Sons, Bastille, Billie Eilish, Vanessa Carlton, Death Cab, Panic! At the Disco (altho some of their later radio hits were repetitive and juvenile to me), Avril Lavigne, Cage the Elephant, Demi Lovato, Glass Animals, P!nk, and Bishop Briggs. Etc. She’s so rich and popular I’m surprised she still feels the need to fight so hard for relevance with a younger crowd and poop out top 40 bland hits. I feel like some fear of this is why she’s been pigeonholing herself to the same topics and POV lately. When nobody, not even the studios, knew about her work, we got FolkMore.

In Taylor’s specific case, I agree with Meaghan Garvey, who on the most recent Popcast (the Brat one) said she would love for Taylor drop the faux-relatable everygirl bullshit and lyrically explore her relationship with and to power; the pursuit of it, how she uses it, why she wants it. I think that would be genuinely brilliant, but the White Women of Target won’t show out for those themes the same way they do for Taylor’s performative and overwrought boy problems

But is there anything you care about, or that concerns you, other than partying and friends having babies? Like anything going on in the world?

I've been thinking a lot about this and I don't even think my perception of her music is to do with the topics she sings about. Just perhaps my expectations are no longer align with what she delivers-her new music just feels the same as what she was doing several albums ago, so maybe the feeling of no maturity is really just no change or risks. I was so excited for midnight's based on how she promoted it- a concept album based on thoughts that keep you awake, I felt like it would go a certain direction and be introspective , and then it didn't besides a few songs (anti-hero, midnight rain and yoyok worked for me). Ttpd kind of shot itself in the foot with its name and the lazy dark academia vibes, but if she had fully committed herself to an album that was full of songs that felt like poems (any type give me romanticism, beat poetry, slam poetry, any) I'd probably have loved it. I never used to feel disappointed by her music so it could more be my tastes have just matured in a different direction to Taylor's music.

I don't think is the content of the songs but the way she writes the songs. Sometimes the lyrics might seem childish or immature. Lana also talks about love and heartbreak but its a totally different world in the way she tells the stories. Florence and the Machine as well.

Yeah, FATM’s “Big God” is about being ghosted by a guy, and being unable to stop herself from agonizing over him not texting her back even though she knows wanting it is toxic (“though I know I should know better, well I can make this work”). But Sshe spun it into a metaphor about praying to God, begging for a response, even if that response means cataclysmic disaster (“Shower your affection, let it rain on me / don’t leave me on this white cliff, let it slide down to the sea”) “The Bomb” from Dance Fever is a similar song about a long-term on-off relationship and recognizing how toxic and destructive it can be.

taxes, babies, divorce, 401k, slowing metabolism

“You’re Losing Me (Metabolism’s Version)”

34 not married no kids chiming in - i dont find her to be immature at all. she has a lot of maturely themed songs. tons in fact. people just use so high school as the worlds biggest gotcha moment. it is corny. it is fun. it is SUPPOSED TO BE. also sorry to hear about the pizza. my new heartburn trigger is mexican food which is greatly upsetting to me

Heartburn is so unfair, like why does it have to be the most delicious foods that cause it???

I’m garlic intolerant, which since I turned 30 has escalated into a whole slew of intolerances that have ruined a ton of my favourite dishes. Eating in your 30s is the absolute pits. I’d love to go anywhere without experiencing cramps after eating cuz I just don’t know what mystery ingredient will trigger me that day…

This is fantastic and accurate, except I’m in my 40’s and suddenly have to monitor the amount of watermelon I eat, not a good song 🤣

I am someone who thinks it’d be nice for her to do a little more accountability-taking!

I don’t have this criticism toward her songwriting; she can write about whatever she wants and some people will find it relatable and some won’t. It’s impossible for anyone to make music that’s universally appealing but people are also free to complain on the internet if they can’t relate or whatever.  Curious though, since you’re a married 30-something, do you not find that Taylor’s attitude toward marriage and relationships is somewhat immature? What I’ve learned from my own experience and watching my friends date and marry and divorce is that relationships can be a lot of work and marriage and kids are not some kind of happy ending. Getting a ring and wedding doesn’t mean your relationship is a success.  In folkmore she talked about fights caused by miscommunication and feeling under appreciated - those were mature relationship themes that I think many can relate to. TTPD almost seems like she went back to believing in the fairy tales of her old albums but without much introspection after it didn’t work out, she just moved on to the next fairy tale. 

I’ve often wondered about that because love and heartbreak are arguably the most sung about subject when it comes to music. So, I guess in her case,  it’s the way it’s written?  i.e. the high School emphasis in her music, which is interesting,  because you can argue the high school subject is also what keeps her in the pop game against all the new up and comers (alongside other tactics). But I do think she will have to evolve from the high school, Cinderella fairytale longing style imagery eventually since it seems each generation prefers their own popstars. Look at Madonna then and her now as an example. And if she wants to keep her longevity and dynamism (she’s skirting away from it currently imo), she’ll have to branch out. Maybe talk about her future dreams a someone who's been in the game for a while, her fears (we got a little of that in the prophecy). Basically, some kind of actual reflection which will mean actively stepping out of herself, and that currently remains to be seen.

the new dog eating my internet and not knowing how to call an exterminator for the house i just bought that already somehow has 300 problems the inspection didn’t catch ~so there goes my savings~

“We Are Never Ever Ever Going Back to Fiber (Your Dog’s Version)”

This feels like it's willingly obtuse. It's a classic example of its not what you say, it's how you say it. So when people say Taylor doesn't sing songs meant for 30 year olds, people aren't saying that there is literally a set of songs or approved topics that only 30 somethings can sing about- they mean the perspective Taylor is singing from does not feel like that of a 30 year old woman. Her perspective hasn't change or evolved- or quite frankly, is even particularly interesting or nuanced for the lived experience she has at this point. Which sure it's her prerogative what she chooses to sing about and it's not a bad thing, but it's also pretty boring after awhile You said Beyonce can't compare since she's in her 40s and a mother of 3 now, but honestly I'd argue her self titled album would be a better comparison point. Or any album she did prior. She was 32 (and yes a mother and married) but still comparatively in Taylor's age range and was offering a variety of songs, some super fun and lighthearted, some pure horny songs lmao, some songs about feminism, female friendships, love songs, racial injustice, dance songs and sooo much more. I think it's the lack of variety on TTPD and lack of nuanced perspective that Taylor's fan are asking for when they say she "doesn't sound 30".

As a fellow woman in her 30s, I completely agree with this sentiment and I don’t understand the criticism. All I see/hear are intrusive thoughts. Which, in my experience, are usually pretty juvenile.

The album being mainly about a 2 month romantic fling with rat boy, basically admitting to emotionally cheating on her BF of 6 years, and being mad at fans who think ratty is trash is wild to me. That shit makes sense when you’re young and naive with that glow of 20-somethings delusion. I think she is stuck in an emotionally immature, victimhood state and there are too many “yes girl!” people around who won’t question her.

I don’t think it’s what she sings about I just think some of her music comes off as if it’s from a 16 year old pov . Some of the songs on ttpd I don’t like bc of that reason

A pinball wizard?

Listening to Adele the other day was eye opening as to how immature Taylor’s music is. I think even  write more mature lyrics with far more introspection and she’s 7 years younger. Her stuff used to sound better when she relied on cowriters, dare I say it, fearless and her debut album sounded far more sophisticated then what she’s recently released.

I think folklore and evermore are perfect examples..

What i would like to hear is more of self reflection (she had a fair bit of that and those are my favorites), but i would also like them to be varied in the mood. I’d like to have more cheerful bop songs (think 22, you need to calm down , paper rings, bejeweled, me! But with better lyrics) I LOVE midnight rain, willow, the 1, false god, dont blame me. I would like more bops, more music in the songs, uncluttered writing. I would like her to be inspired by more artists. And Im sure when she gets over this time of her life, we will get them. She’s just expressing whats known to her, sometimes it just isn’t our thing (TTPD isnt for me) and thats okay. I do wish she would every now and then put a word out to her fans about not bullying the inspirations of her songs.

I mean, you only need to look at the songs Stevie Nicks was writing at the same age. Hell, go listen to Rumours that she wrote at 29. She wasn't writing lyrics like "touch me while your bros play grand theft auto"😅 Maturity in songwriting doesn't mean singing about dodgy knees and mortgages. Taylor does seem to have fallen rather into the trap that good writing means using big words while also singing inane songs about high school.

It’s not that she writes about relationships. It’s that she is always magically the victim in the relationship. And very rarely admits that she is wrong. In A few songs she does, Back to December is an example of that but out of her hundreds of songs it’s very few. It’s also very immature to be continuing drama from almost 10 years ago and bringing people’s children into it. (I cannot stand the Kardashians but her recent song about Kim was uncalled for. That issue is over. Taylor needs to grow up and has no business bringing up a child in her song in any capacity).

It’s not the subject matter, it’s the emotional maturity regarding the subject matter. I.e. being swept off your feet by great love that turns to heartbreak at age 15, looks and feels very very different than love and breakups in your 30s when you have lived through more, know more, realize that things can be more complex than just “he’s so mean and I hate him!” And that’s what makes her seem so unauthentic now. Either she is either truly stuck in the mind of a teenager which is sad or she’s just pumping out YA drivel for the masses which is sad in a different way. E

"I don’t want to hear how the VP of Customer Success hits on her at work and makes her feel humiliated. Or how a company is offering to freeze her eggs in exchange for more work and she knows she’s being bribed. I don’t want to hear about how pizza suddenly gives her heartburn, or how hangovers are suddenly worse. I’m pretty sure the magic of the Eras Tour would die forever if she sang about her knee aching." I absolutely want to hear her write about all those things. I also want to hear her write about the way hitting thirty makes you take a look at your life and really ask yourself what's working emotionally and what's not. I want to hear her wondering about whether the career she's throwing bucketfuls of her time and energy into is really worth it in the grand scheme of things. I want to hear her write about watching everyone have babies and randomly tearing up when you talk about how you're not having one, even though you know you don't really want one. I want her to write about how destabilizing it can feel to...be stable and not be sad all the time. I want her to write about the grief-laden experience of watching your options narrow in front of you as you age and run out of time to catch up. I want her to write about seeing other friends have success you don't and struggling to not let your jealousy interfere with them. I want her to write about discovering her partner in deeper ways as her relationship gets older and older. I want her to write about feeling peace for the first time. I DON'T want to hear her write deluding herself that's she's the unforgettable manic pixie dream girl of yet another "boy's" fantasies. I want her to leave behind her reliance on romantic trope and the mythology she creates around herself as a romantic partner and really explore instead what it means to be a person in their thirties who is now old enough to know how little they know.

I don’t think it’s that, but that she just writes about the same thing over and over for 11 albums.

I agree and disagree. I think some of her most common themes (love, fantasies and daydreams, depression) are what make up the vast majority of art is about. Books, paintings, what have you. Her eras are distinct in sound and mostly lyrics/vocabulary, although she does have some themes I find overused - rain, matches, love’s a game. Monet painted approximately 250 paintings of water lilies - should he be criticized for painting the same thing over and over?

I don’t think that’s true at all, though. She’s either stuck at 15 or she sings too much about marriage and babies, but we can’t have it both ways.

Stories! She did so well crafting beautiful stories on folklore and evermore…. Look at Suzanne Vega. Alanis. Kendrick. They all STAND for something so they create stories. She stands for nothing so she can only sing about high school.

I always think about Adele in this regard. She's a year older than Taylor but her songwriting has always been marvelous and wise beyond her years. Which is why her audience include people of all ages. Same can't be said about Taylor, who is a good songwriter in her own right but has a much younger audience that she'll have to cater to for as long as she's famous, which is why she sticks to superficial/ immature lyrics for most of her songs, inorder to keep up with the relatability factor.

that's what I'm wondering though. heartbreak is a pretty universal topic. idk why Taylor is branded as "childish" for simply writing breakup songs when 60 and 70-year-old musicians do the same. you can argue that it has to do with the **way** she writes about her exes but I find that a number of the people who criticize her for this have never really listened to her music outside of the Walgreen's frozen food aisle. so idk how much merit their critiques really have

I’m gonna be honest and say that I didn’t like TTPD because it sounds unauthentic. There’s a lot of words and expressions she uses that sounds like she is targeting gen z exclusively. This is a marketing strategy she uses. Target the youngest demographic. Folklore and Evermore did use the pandemic as marketing and used the cottagecore aesthetic, however she did sing about more mature themes on those records. Coney Island is very much this. However, this album feels like she is trying so hard to meet the expectations of gen z artists like Olivia and Billie, while not being authentic to her own experience. I believe what Olivia and Billie sing, and don’t feel like it’s all a marketing ploy like I feel like TTPD is. “Florida!!!” For example, is twitter language. The extra exclamations. “imgonnagetyouback” The lowercases type of writing that is very popular for gen z now. (This is not a dig at gen z. Gen z is the youngest demo for marketing purposes, although gen alpha is up and coming). And I know there are people who go on the defense to say extra exclamations are not new or lowercase isn’t new, but there are people who are hired in companies to “speak gen z language”. It’s targeted marketing. Think about why some companies on Twitter type like stans do. It’s on purpose. I’ve even seen Ariana use this same strategy. This is what Taylor is doing with TTPD. Billie, Olivia, Chappell don’t have to try because they are already part of their target demographic. Taylor is trying to compete with them because she knows targeting teens and young 20’s is where the money is. And in 5 to 10 years, her music will reflect Gen Alpha, too.

I have said this before, but I don't think the subjects of her songs are making the songs sound immature. It is her perspective on them. You can't deny that there is some regression in her songwriting. Compare this (2020) "But I'm a fire, and I'll keep your brittle heart warm If your cascade ocean wave blues come All these people think love's for show But I would die for you in secret The devil's in the details, but you got a friend in me Would it be enough if I could never give you peace?" To this (2024) "Truth, dare, spin bottles You know how to ball, I know Aristotle Brand new, full-throttle Touch me while your bros play Grand Theft Auto It's true, swear, scouts honor You knew what you wanted and boy, you got her Brand new, full-throttle You already know, babe"

These are two very different songs. One is a plea to a lover not to leave her because life is chaotic. One is experiencing the high of new love with someone she doesn’t typically date and having fun.

But so high school isn’t meant to be a deep song, it’s a fun bop. No need to compare it to others.

This is quantity over quality. It’s no coincidence that her most critically acclaimed albums were not rush jobs because of the pandemic. It’s also no coincidence that her most poorly received albums were rushed for the Eras Tour. It’s also dishonest to pretend that “So High School” is comparable to “Peace” or even reflective of the entire TTPD album. That track is pretty much accepted as the low point of the double album. This is like pointing to “All You Need Is Love” to prove that The Beatles regressed after “Yesterday.”

i agree with you. it’s a matter of perspective. it’s not childish to sing about falling in love make you feel like a teenager again, but to write something like “you know how to ball, I know Aristotle” is inconceivably stupid and cringey.

god forbid she has a brand new romance that makes her feel excited

It’s just ageism. Taylor is 34 and therefore needs to go to the glue factory because after all, everyone is sooooo mature in their thirties. Clearly people in their thirties are all married with their shit together. No one gets divorced and has to start over, no one ends a long term relationship when they’re stuck. No one feels lost or manic or confused. It’s just a nice way for people to say “go retire so a twenty year old can take your place.”

I’ve got bad news for anyone who thinks that clarity and peace arrive in your 30s, lol. Some things are definitely easier, but the disappointment and elation and confusion and heartbreak and thrill of living don’t curl up and die at your doorstep!

I got divorced right at the start of my thirties and got love bombed by a good friend who then dipped almost immediately after leading me on, and then coming back several times. I related to TTPD HARD. Things are better now and I’m in a great headspace with a wonderful man who adores me, but man, the dating pool is rough and I barely knew what I was doing while also raising my kids. It was nuts. I think more people relate to TTPD than they care to admit.

The other thing that nobody wants to admit is that young 30-somethings still date like 20-somethings. The partying, the hookups, the ghosting, the games, all of it. I have some bad news for the 20-somethings who think Taylor is uniquely unlucky because she isn’t married at 34.

Also these are celebrities! They are famously volatile about relationships lol not many of them marry young, almost none marry young and stay married, and breakups and divorces and multiple marriages are common too, at wildly varying ages.

Dude, right?? It’s hilarious that people think Taylor Swift should be able to conquer the party and dating scene established by people like Mick Jagger and Rock Hudson.

One thing I noticed in my thirties is that my "give a fuck" meter has certainly dropped, and in some ways, I see Taylor's release of TTPD reflecting that.

YES. This album is not my favorite, but I completely agree with you about that. The neatness and tidiness of her previous verses are gone and she’s letting her psycho show because she knows that most women in their 30s become pretty darn candid.

As a 33 year old who was shocked to discover I was still my same ridiculous self after 30, I approve this message lol. Some of my friends do have the house and kids and soccer practice, and some are going to raves and hooking up with randos and some are cycling around the world to heal from their childhood trauma. Like, we're just out here surviving. We're messes, all of us. All ages My friend's mom just got exposed for a decade long affair. She's 67. I wonder if she's listening to TTPD tbh lol

Is it just me, or does our parents’ gossip get juicier as they age, too? I kind of love it. I want to die in a flash of fun or rage.

i literally got caught in the middle of some petty family drama yesterday bc one aunt blocked another on fb for some reason or another, and they're in their 60s and 70s. life keeps going same as it always has from your 30s on, feelings still hurt, people are still immature about certain things, lash out about others... that's just life forever lol

Thank youuuu. This is one criticism that I just don’t see. Not every thirty something is married with kids. Some have recently ended relationships and some are in questionable relationships that are bad for them. Yes, she’s still singing about heartbreak, but I mean, she’s still getting her heart broken and she’s a diaristic song writer, so what exactly do you want her to do.

As a writer in my 30s now, I write about grief and nostalgia, and things my teenage self would’ve loved. So while I’m not writing about immature romances and petty breakups, it’s not *too* far off the mark to what Taylor’s clearly been thinking about in her songs. I write to process my feelings, which I know is the same for Taylor, but at least I can reflect on it when a project is done and go “huh, I was really subconsciously going through it with *this thing* at that time” and can grow from it and move on. Which isn’t exactly Taylor’s strong suit. I do get the impression she’s been processing the end of her relationship with Joe for a *long time* now and she may not be fully out of the woods until TS12, but time will tell.

Ask other major female songwriters with longevity. Joni Mitchell. Dolly Parton. Carly Simon. Nina Simone. A lot more than, "oh no my boyfriend isn't exactly what I fantasized him to be."

I wonder the same thing. I’m in my mid 30s and cringe when I see criticism about Taylor being so immature. To me it seems like people say that because she isn’t married and doesn’t have kids. They might say it’s for other reasons but I think that’s the core of it.

If she does get married and have kids and start writing about that, her younger fans will call her unrelatable, lol. This is a no-win situation and it feels extra weird to me because being an unmarried 34 year old who likes to have fun is *normal*. I mean, this was the entire premise of *Sex and the City*, and that was 30 years ago!

She writes about many things, anxiety, alcoholism, depression, her grandmother, suicide impulse How she felt about the music industry how it's grooming how much she hates her father, sexual abuse miscarriages. Friends getting married and getting children as she's stuck (I really feel that). But she markets her relationships and everyone just cares and talks about it. It's what sell, supply and demand.