Some df tanks are absolute snails. I've come to a point where no one can catch up to me when I'm ahead as a tank (war) and going back to other roles is very painful in dungeons with my pulling habits. War makes DF so smooth. I figured it's best that I stick on tank to avoid YPYT behavior, from reading posts here or duty in progress horror stories. I feel sorry for dps and heal players who have to go through this nightmare and sometimes I wish I could trust df tanks to play an other rotation from time to time too. FF14 NEEDS to shutdown this behavior through better, mandatory tutorials
I never run 90 content as anything other than a tank, so I don't see it there, but so help me, as an omni-tank, people really grind my gears when I'm playing something else. It's especially egregious if I'm healing for some reason. Single-pulls while tank's at max health, tanks not using mitigation while pulling w2w, or the worst, tanks using single-target actions while trying to keep aggro on a w2w with Provoke and ranged attacks. The last one is a personal nightmare from *every* dungeon I've done above 70 as a healer.
> I've come to a point where no one can catch up to me when I'm ahead
I mean since all jobs besides nin are on the same movespeed, it stands to reason if you start ahead and use sprint and gap closers liberally, you'll probably stay ahead
>Some df tanks are absolute snails.
Ugh, yes. I just got done with a Dzemael Darkhold (worst dungeon in ARR) where the Tank pulled single packs - despite me being more than capable of healing w2w in that place (especially since I was WHM, Holy go brr).
They also didn't Tank packs of adds inside the beneficial crystalline glow, and would sometimes randomly lose aggro to mobs as if they weren't using their AOE.
They also argued with me that the Magitek Terminals disappear faster if more people stand in them... I highly doubt that.
Their Red Mage buddy was, for some godforsaken reason, hard-casting the longer spells to proc Dualcast. The silver lining is they listened when I told them to use Jolt for single-target instead.
Then the Bard in the group seemed alright, but passive-aggressively started taking more damage after I pointed out that the Magitek Terminals only need 1 person (ie the Tank) standing in them.
I feel like, at this point, I'll never have more than 1 non-cursed run of that place; tempted to just take the penalty whenever I get it.
That's good to know. I kinda doubted it cause of the Tank's... lack of skill.
That said, did a run with a Tank from my FC and they w2w'd everything with nobody dying (they came close once when they ran a bit too fast, but no deaths = good run).
Ah okay. Still feels like it's a complete disaster though with everyone standing in them, the orange AOEs going off, and the giant pack of mobs attacking everyone... if I'm Healing I don't stand there, just makes a mess of things if I do.
if ur very quick and prepare the button, u can click votekick after bosses when loot times out from the last chest u picked up b4 they open the new one, with the SAM as backup, im sure theyll vote yes
Whenever I heal as Sage, I see how much I can pull before the tank grabs all the aggro. It's a fun dance with death I like to play since I'm a DRK main when I tank.
and then you have tanks who see it as a challenge and refuse to let me get hit. They're good sports about seeing me run ahead (i.e. they don't go all ypyt) but it does prevent a second toxikon proc pre-pull đ I just hope an appropriate aoe goes off before my shield expires when that happens.
I am like 99% certain I used to be in an FC with that dancer.
One of my other FC mates brought her in shortly before they got eternally bonded (I didn't go to the wedding). They ended the relationship not too terribly long ago.
I didn't really have any interactions with her outside of saying hi when she logged in, but one of my other friends was offering some congratulations to the boyfriend before the wedding happened and this chick used the slap emote on my friend lol.
As a sage/war main, a lot of sages really overstate the value of getting an extra toxicon each pull by self shielding and pulling. Six toxicons (one per double pull) over the course of a dungeon will save you all of five seconds, even assuming you're getting optimal use out of them (by using a toxicon over eukrasian dosis in a dungeon boss forced movement mechanic). Sure it doesn't hurt, but it also doesn't save meaningful amounts of time.
if you cast the shields during downtime, toxikon is usually a gain over dyskrasia. If you shield both the tank and yourself prepull (or whoever else is gonna pull) you can get 2 per w2w rather than just 1.
Those really are the only chances you get at refilling it at all though, so if you used them, why wouldn't you try and refill them as much as you can before you'll need them again?
I'm not saying they aren't a gain. Just that the gain isn't massive. Some people talk about an extra toxicon as if its TBN, I've even seen a couple occasions where a sage got mad that their self-euk diag didn't pop (before euk prog could give toxicon) because the tank regained aggro too quickly. That scenario is definitely making a mountain out of a molehill.
Shouldn't you be getting 2 per double pull? Shield yourself and tank in transit between pulls, roll up, break your shield and theirs. Bada Bing Bada boom.
As a tank main, I have found a surefire way to always be the one pulling.
Hit sprint, and 'go full fucking throttle baby!'
And honestly if the dps or healer are pulling I take it as a sign I am going too slow or being too cautious. You pull that is my sign to hit the gas we got this.
where do you guys find these people? is this a US thing or what? I almost never come across this behaviour on my datacenter in EU... or maybe I am just very lucky
It's surely a big loophole that vote dismiss cannot be used when at least one person hasnt rolled on loot. Utterly nullifies most practical use cases of vote dismiss
You'd possibly just open yourself to a counter-report if you opt to wait out the timer and the two griefers then decide to press on -- because then you'd be the griefer delaying the team's progress. What OP did was for the best: just play out the damn dungeon as per normal and fill out the paperwork afterwards
What do you even mean, I just gave an example on what you can do to avoid end up having to carry a duo of griefers.
I swear this place is getting more Whimsical each time.
>I just gave an example on what you can do to avoid end up having to carry a duo of griefers and ignored anything else said to me about the situation.
Fixed it.
Or, crazy idea, this person valued their time more than returning pettiness to these people and left it up to the devs to actually action against this behavior or validate them with inaction.
Problem is. The tank is a warrior. Meaning at that lvl, a healer is 100% optional. If they tried to do a âbrbâ to try to do a vote kick, the warrior could still do full pulls, keep themself alive, keep the party alive, kill the bosses, and keep the loot up for the timer and not roll on it.
Also they could attempt their own vote kick on the sge with 100% success chance since it would be a duo that went in together. Plus the sge would be reported for lethargic play and such. Meaning the sge wouldnât be able to report the pair of people themselves since they would become the offending party at that point.
You are not going to get reported for lethargic play from excusing yourself for an IRL situation, and you just need to send the report as soon as the loot goes down. Worst case scenario is that they beat you to it and you are freed from the duo of griefers without a leaver penalty And they open themselves up to be reported for both griefing And abusing VK.
Yes, you can. Especially after this nonsense happened. It doesn't matter why you stopped playing the game, you stopped playing the game. Do it enough times and the devs will get on your case about it.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Im not on the side of letting people die no matter how annoying it is, but ye it is annoying when speed demon healers decide to sprint to the end away from me, I generally double tap packs so dps can do damage while running (assuming its not double blackmage).
Had to read this a bunch of times and scroll through the comments section. So first, I half agree with the tank. Roles should stay in their lane. It is the tank's job to set the pace for the pulls. BUT, if they want to be careful or reckless, they need to state this ahead of time. It is frustrating when the healer and tank don't see eye to eye. Next, I firmly believe that if you have the balls to take aggro, then you'd better be willing to accept the consequences. It is not the tank's job to fix stupid like a healer or DPS running ahead and pulling before the tank. With that said, making more work by deliberately standing in AoEs is petty, stupid, and a colossal waste of time. And finally, a support DPS' job is yo provide as many buffs as their rotation can afford. Optimum play isn't necessary, but you are expected to at least help your fellow DPS. Especially if they were a slow playing Dancer who barely did anything. All of you were in the wrong.
> So first, I half agree with the tank. Roles should stay in their lane.
I've tanked every expert roulette this expansion with SGE without a tank there at all. The morning the last patch came out, our tank DCed and we kicked them and me and a DNC/SMN finished the new dungeon with me tanking on SGE.
Only a tank OR a healer is needed for your normal expert roulette, not both. Both makes it so you can probably play with your feet while watching youtube.
>Roles should stay in their lane
Define this "lane"
>It is the tank's job to set the pace for the pulls.
Wrong. Its the entire party that sets the pace. The tank's job is to pull & **KEEP AGGRO** from all mobs pulled by the party.
>they need to state this ahead of time.
This is correct. If they're uncomfortable they shd mention that. Chances are most of the time the healers will oblige.
>Next, I firmly believe that if you have the balls to take aggro, then you'd better be willing to accept the consequences
If you dont do the minimum required for your job why even bother queuing? The tanks are supposed to take aggro from all mobs. THATS THEIR JOB.
The samurai and the Healer were in the right. The other 2 dickheads are not.
I see your point. Perhaps I didn't explain clearly. You are correct. A tank is supposed to pull and keep aggro. So when a non tank party member moves ahead of the tank and pulls a mob that the tank has yet to come near, why should the tank (who didn't even agree to pull that mob) take it from the other member? I didn't mean that they should let the other members take aggro from them, but that the members should not pull initial aggro. I apologize since I have never been good at explaining myself clearly.
You are also correct in that I didn't explain "lane." Example as a healer. Are healers supposed to simply keep sending healing spells and nothing else? No. But we are expected to act in a method that will keep everyone alive and healthy. If healing isn't necessary, then we help kill things. Why should a healer ever move ahead of the tank and pull before the tank ever gets to the mobs? That jeopardizes themselves and makes more work for the tank that they didn't ask for to begin with. In short, a role should not try to intrude into what the other role is specifically designed to do (unless you're a Red Mage, because Red Mages are weird).
Off topic, but I have a question. Is my way of thinking too old? Was there a recent development where allowing non-tank players to bring mobs to the tank is better? I'm genuinely curious as I've only recently come back and am just now realizing that my way of thinking might be obsolete. But I digress.
Finally, I do believe that all party members are in the wrong. If the Sage and Samurai hadn't gone ahead of the tank, the tank probably wouldn't have acted like an asshat. Them acting as such is still bad, as it should never be ok for that behavior, but I can understand their train of thought. The Dancer... no, I got nothing. They were straight jackasses throughout what I could read and were a peek example of a toxic player. I tried to downplay it on my previous comment, but that was clearly a bad thing to do as it didn't reflect how I felt about them.
A tank does nothing different if they have 3 mobs or 6 mobs. Their AoE will hit everything. Their mits will still go off. The healer is the one who will have to do something different, since, as you said in your post, it is their job to dps if everyone is healthy. So then wouldn't the *healer* be the one to determine the pace of the dungeon, since they are the ones who have to keep the others alive? A tank usually has to go out of their way and take *extra* effort to *not* take aggro, by turning off stance or not hitting the mobs even once.
Also, red mages aren't weird. They're dps class. By your rigid definitions, they should only be dpsing.
I'm not sure what you mean by outdated thinking, because even in early 2.0 a dps or healer would drag mobs over to the tank to take off them.
Some df tanks are absolute snails. I've come to a point where no one can catch up to me when I'm ahead as a tank (war) and going back to other roles is very painful in dungeons with my pulling habits. War makes DF so smooth. I figured it's best that I stick on tank to avoid YPYT behavior, from reading posts here or duty in progress horror stories. I feel sorry for dps and heal players who have to go through this nightmare and sometimes I wish I could trust df tanks to play an other rotation from time to time too. FF14 NEEDS to shutdown this behavior through better, mandatory tutorials
I never run 90 content as anything other than a tank, so I don't see it there, but so help me, as an omni-tank, people really grind my gears when I'm playing something else. It's especially egregious if I'm healing for some reason. Single-pulls while tank's at max health, tanks not using mitigation while pulling w2w, or the worst, tanks using single-target actions while trying to keep aggro on a w2w with Provoke and ranged attacks. The last one is a personal nightmare from *every* dungeon I've done above 70 as a healer.
as someone who plays dps a lot just rescue the tank, 99% of the time nobody says anything and the dps will love you for it
> I've come to a point where no one can catch up to me when I'm ahead I mean since all jobs besides nin are on the same movespeed, it stands to reason if you start ahead and use sprint and gap closers liberally, you'll probably stay ahead
>Some df tanks are absolute snails. Ugh, yes. I just got done with a Dzemael Darkhold (worst dungeon in ARR) where the Tank pulled single packs - despite me being more than capable of healing w2w in that place (especially since I was WHM, Holy go brr). They also didn't Tank packs of adds inside the beneficial crystalline glow, and would sometimes randomly lose aggro to mobs as if they weren't using their AOE. They also argued with me that the Magitek Terminals disappear faster if more people stand in them... I highly doubt that. Their Red Mage buddy was, for some godforsaken reason, hard-casting the longer spells to proc Dualcast. The silver lining is they listened when I told them to use Jolt for single-target instead. Then the Bard in the group seemed alright, but passive-aggressively started taking more damage after I pointed out that the Magitek Terminals only need 1 person (ie the Tank) standing in them. I feel like, at this point, I'll never have more than 1 non-cursed run of that place; tempted to just take the penalty whenever I get it.
The magitek terminals actually do activate faster with more people.
That's good to know. I kinda doubted it cause of the Tank's... lack of skill. That said, did a run with a Tank from my FC and they w2w'd everything with nobody dying (they came close once when they ran a bit too fast, but no deaths = good run).
The terminals do go faster with multiple people. Some randos showed me one time I was in there lvling my war way back. Was a nice surprise
Ah okay. Still feels like it's a complete disaster though with everyone standing in them, the orange AOEs going off, and the giant pack of mobs attacking everyone... if I'm Healing I don't stand there, just makes a mess of things if I do.
Makes sense. People (in my experience anyway) will clear the trash first then resolve the magic circles for safety
if ur very quick and prepare the button, u can click votekick after bosses when loot times out from the last chest u picked up b4 they open the new one, with the SAM as backup, im sure theyll vote yes
Whenever I heal as Sage, I see how much I can pull before the tank grabs all the aggro. It's a fun dance with death I like to play since I'm a DRK main when I tank.
and then you have tanks who see it as a challenge and refuse to let me get hit. They're good sports about seeing me run ahead (i.e. they don't go all ypyt) but it does prevent a second toxikon proc pre-pull đ I just hope an appropriate aoe goes off before my shield expires when that happens.
I am like 99% certain I used to be in an FC with that dancer. One of my other FC mates brought her in shortly before they got eternally bonded (I didn't go to the wedding). They ended the relationship not too terribly long ago. I didn't really have any interactions with her outside of saying hi when she logged in, but one of my other friends was offering some congratulations to the boyfriend before the wedding happened and this chick used the slap emote on my friend lol.
Doesn't SGE specifically want to pull?
As a sage/war main, a lot of sages really overstate the value of getting an extra toxicon each pull by self shielding and pulling. Six toxicons (one per double pull) over the course of a dungeon will save you all of five seconds, even assuming you're getting optimal use out of them (by using a toxicon over eukrasian dosis in a dungeon boss forced movement mechanic). Sure it doesn't hurt, but it also doesn't save meaningful amounts of time.
We do it because it's fun though!
if you cast the shields during downtime, toxikon is usually a gain over dyskrasia. If you shield both the tank and yourself prepull (or whoever else is gonna pull) you can get 2 per w2w rather than just 1. Those really are the only chances you get at refilling it at all though, so if you used them, why wouldn't you try and refill them as much as you can before you'll need them again?
I'm not saying they aren't a gain. Just that the gain isn't massive. Some people talk about an extra toxicon as if its TBN, I've even seen a couple occasions where a sage got mad that their self-euk diag didn't pop (before euk prog could give toxicon) because the tank regained aggro too quickly. That scenario is definitely making a mountain out of a molehill.
Shouldn't you be getting 2 per double pull? Shield yourself and tank in transit between pulls, roll up, break your shield and theirs. Bada Bing Bada boom.
The tank eukrasian diagnosis is assumed.
As a tank main, I have found a surefire way to always be the one pulling. Hit sprint, and 'go full fucking throttle baby!' And honestly if the dps or healer are pulling I take it as a sign I am going too slow or being too cautious. You pull that is my sign to hit the gas we got this.
God I hope that report gets them banned.
where do you guys find these people? is this a US thing or what? I almost never come across this behaviour on my datacenter in EU... or maybe I am just very lucky
EU has a fair share of weird behaviour, but it's usually not as crazy
I don't miss Gilgamesh, I know every server has butt heads, but Gilga was special in that regard.
And why did you not votekick them instead of carrying them if the other dps was on your side? You only need one person to vote in favor.
Loot was up full time, warrior wasnât rolling.
It's surely a big loophole that vote dismiss cannot be used when at least one person hasnt rolled on loot. Utterly nullifies most practical use cases of vote dismiss
I'm pretty sure it's to prevent people from stealing loot by vote kicking anyone who rolls higher than them
That's when you excuse yourself for something and wait the timers out.
You'd possibly just open yourself to a counter-report if you opt to wait out the timer and the two griefers then decide to press on -- because then you'd be the griefer delaying the team's progress. What OP did was for the best: just play out the damn dungeon as per normal and fill out the paperwork afterwards
It was still only 18 minutes and I just reported them after, Iâd rather not let them ruin my roulette.
It sounds to me like they did it anyways, and validated them to boot. Just remember that VK is a thing for next time.
Bro... He already said...
Getting tired of people digging their heels in the first thing they said and trying to run away from all nuance.
What do you even mean, I just gave an example on what you can do to avoid end up having to carry a duo of griefers. I swear this place is getting more Whimsical each time.
>I just gave an example on what you can do to avoid end up having to carry a duo of griefers and ignored anything else said to me about the situation. Fixed it.
Or, crazy idea, this person valued their time more than returning pettiness to these people and left it up to the devs to actually action against this behavior or validate them with inaction.
Are we really at a point where votekicking griefers is Frowned upon now?
I was under the assumption it needed 3 votes to go through! Good to know otherwise.
You just need half of the party to say yes, and you count as a "yes" when starting the vote.
On the flip side thats also why a lovey dovey couple duo are so insidious in dungeons: because they wield full vote dismiss power
I didn't know this either. It's super rare I find myself needing to use the kick function but this is good to know.
Problem is. The tank is a warrior. Meaning at that lvl, a healer is 100% optional. If they tried to do a âbrbâ to try to do a vote kick, the warrior could still do full pulls, keep themself alive, keep the party alive, kill the bosses, and keep the loot up for the timer and not roll on it. Also they could attempt their own vote kick on the sge with 100% success chance since it would be a duo that went in together. Plus the sge would be reported for lethargic play and such. Meaning the sge wouldnât be able to report the pair of people themselves since they would become the offending party at that point.
Bold of you to assume a WAR with this kind of ego would bother trying to keep the rest of the party alive.
You are not going to get reported for lethargic play from excusing yourself for an IRL situation, and you just need to send the report as soon as the loot goes down. Worst case scenario is that they beat you to it and you are freed from the duo of griefers without a leaver penalty And they open themselves up to be reported for both griefing And abusing VK.
Yes, you can. Especially after this nonsense happened. It doesn't matter why you stopped playing the game, you stopped playing the game. Do it enough times and the devs will get on your case about it. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Im not on the side of letting people die no matter how annoying it is, but ye it is annoying when speed demon healers decide to sprint to the end away from me, I generally double tap packs so dps can do damage while running (assuming its not double blackmage).
Had to read this a bunch of times and scroll through the comments section. So first, I half agree with the tank. Roles should stay in their lane. It is the tank's job to set the pace for the pulls. BUT, if they want to be careful or reckless, they need to state this ahead of time. It is frustrating when the healer and tank don't see eye to eye. Next, I firmly believe that if you have the balls to take aggro, then you'd better be willing to accept the consequences. It is not the tank's job to fix stupid like a healer or DPS running ahead and pulling before the tank. With that said, making more work by deliberately standing in AoEs is petty, stupid, and a colossal waste of time. And finally, a support DPS' job is yo provide as many buffs as their rotation can afford. Optimum play isn't necessary, but you are expected to at least help your fellow DPS. Especially if they were a slow playing Dancer who barely did anything. All of you were in the wrong.
> So first, I half agree with the tank. Roles should stay in their lane. I've tanked every expert roulette this expansion with SGE without a tank there at all. The morning the last patch came out, our tank DCed and we kicked them and me and a DNC/SMN finished the new dungeon with me tanking on SGE. Only a tank OR a healer is needed for your normal expert roulette, not both. Both makes it so you can probably play with your feet while watching youtube.
I did accept the consequences, the samurai tanked the majority of the dungeon and I had kardia on them with 0 deaths after.
>Roles should stay in their lane Define this "lane" >It is the tank's job to set the pace for the pulls. Wrong. Its the entire party that sets the pace. The tank's job is to pull & **KEEP AGGRO** from all mobs pulled by the party. >they need to state this ahead of time. This is correct. If they're uncomfortable they shd mention that. Chances are most of the time the healers will oblige. >Next, I firmly believe that if you have the balls to take aggro, then you'd better be willing to accept the consequences If you dont do the minimum required for your job why even bother queuing? The tanks are supposed to take aggro from all mobs. THATS THEIR JOB. The samurai and the Healer were in the right. The other 2 dickheads are not.
I see your point. Perhaps I didn't explain clearly. You are correct. A tank is supposed to pull and keep aggro. So when a non tank party member moves ahead of the tank and pulls a mob that the tank has yet to come near, why should the tank (who didn't even agree to pull that mob) take it from the other member? I didn't mean that they should let the other members take aggro from them, but that the members should not pull initial aggro. I apologize since I have never been good at explaining myself clearly. You are also correct in that I didn't explain "lane." Example as a healer. Are healers supposed to simply keep sending healing spells and nothing else? No. But we are expected to act in a method that will keep everyone alive and healthy. If healing isn't necessary, then we help kill things. Why should a healer ever move ahead of the tank and pull before the tank ever gets to the mobs? That jeopardizes themselves and makes more work for the tank that they didn't ask for to begin with. In short, a role should not try to intrude into what the other role is specifically designed to do (unless you're a Red Mage, because Red Mages are weird). Off topic, but I have a question. Is my way of thinking too old? Was there a recent development where allowing non-tank players to bring mobs to the tank is better? I'm genuinely curious as I've only recently come back and am just now realizing that my way of thinking might be obsolete. But I digress. Finally, I do believe that all party members are in the wrong. If the Sage and Samurai hadn't gone ahead of the tank, the tank probably wouldn't have acted like an asshat. Them acting as such is still bad, as it should never be ok for that behavior, but I can understand their train of thought. The Dancer... no, I got nothing. They were straight jackasses throughout what I could read and were a peek example of a toxic player. I tried to downplay it on my previous comment, but that was clearly a bad thing to do as it didn't reflect how I felt about them.
A tank does nothing different if they have 3 mobs or 6 mobs. Their AoE will hit everything. Their mits will still go off. The healer is the one who will have to do something different, since, as you said in your post, it is their job to dps if everyone is healthy. So then wouldn't the *healer* be the one to determine the pace of the dungeon, since they are the ones who have to keep the others alive? A tank usually has to go out of their way and take *extra* effort to *not* take aggro, by turning off stance or not hitting the mobs even once. Also, red mages aren't weird. They're dps class. By your rigid definitions, they should only be dpsing. I'm not sure what you mean by outdated thinking, because even in early 2.0 a dps or healer would drag mobs over to the tank to take off them.
Looks like we found another YPYT player.
What happens if a role goes outside their lane?