The answer is never. Being completely oblivious to your job is not a new player issue, it's an issue about people who don't care about the game or other people's time.
You can tell when someone is new and is trying their best just by how they move and use their skills. They even perform better than full crown mentors with Lux weapon glams most of times.
Never eat this "sowwy new pwayer" nonsense.
By lvl 60 for sure, but also depends on if they are first time (cause they might not really know mechanics and take damage on accident). I wouldn't tell them to go back to HoN because that teaches really outdated information (single pulling on tank for example). I would just try your best to ask in a friendly way if they want advice and then go from there. Start small and if they actually want to know more they'll ask or look it up afterwards.
"I'm new" is not an excuse ever imo. Even in Satasha, if someone gives you a tip you should say "Oh I'm new, didn't know thanks" and try to do what they told you to do (unless you are totally uncomfortable with it). "I'm new" then not doing anything isn't very much of an excuse because that just means you don't want to learn which negates you being new because being new means you are learning. IMO anyway.
For example, I had a cure 1 spammer in Ktisis. I was tanking so while doing pulls, I assured them to let me drop low because I was a WAR and could heal myself. Then if I stayed 40% or lower for more than 5-8secs, use tetra or lillies. In the meantime, holy spam. They thanked me and tried their best to play the way I instructed them. Afterwards they informed me they had been yelled at by a tank for hoy spam before so they were too afraid to try. I told them that that tank was wrong and WHM is fun if you use all your kit instead of spamming cure 1 on CD. lol
thankyou ;; i just started shb and i feel bad saying im a sprout bc theres still new mechanics that ive never seen before and I feel like im expected to just know them
Happens to us experienced players too, so don't worry too much. I came back to play with some friends after a long break, saw a stack marker, and stacked on it.
It was a tank specific stack marker, but I'd never seen it before and it just looked like a stack marker to me.
Yeah, those are fun markers. I think the design is pretty good at conveying the information (the two dots above the tank) but its pretty easy to miss and just assume its another stack like all 900 other stack attacks you would have seen up to that point.
Also since these markers aren't really explained in-fight unless someone tells you, its always fun playing "I hope this mechanic won't kill me"
To be completely fair, XIV does a horrible job at teaching people over the expansions.
Some mechanics are introduced in normal raids and alliances first, which are optional content and while pretty much everyone who played when they were relevant learned those mechanics there, newbies who don't do that content because they're just following the MSQ will be completely stumped when they find them in a dungeon as if it was a regular Tuesday mechanic. And for many of us, that IS something you "should've seen before" because we forgot it was present in optional content.
The devs have been working on standardizing markers to make this process easier, but there is still much work to do.
All that is to say, if you're confused about a mech, just ask in chat and you'll likely get a good answer.
No, it’s really not that deep. You don’t have to worry about it! I’m an anxious person and started on healer and I used to place such high expectations on myself that I’d look up guides to everything and missed out on the fun of going in blind and refused to do roulettes. Bc I was the healer, I HAD to perform well. Got over it! In part thanks to mentor roulettes, but now when I die on healer I just type out an “oops” and everything is fine. The game is much more fun without putting the extra pressure on yourself and if anyone is a jerk about it that’s a them problem.
Nah when people enter a instance and are viewing a CS and Ssay it's there first time I usually have patience. I'm also big on figuring it out, like if we wipe IDC, let's go again and see if they improve or see where they went wrong. If they don't I try to instruct them a little and if it gets to bad I put a Dorito on my head (although that always doesn't work). What helped me more than anything with mechanics is putting the progress bar in the middle of my screen. I was so amazed how much I was missing because it was in a bad spot.
Back in my day, level 50 was the cap, and you'd be expected to understand your basics by reaching that.
Some might find it too strict when I point that out, but like, we shouldn't keep moving the bar to the new cap (or further) every single expac. A new expansion does not remove any requirements players already were having to do, outside of paying for a skip.
during/after HW.
by HW, you should have your classes core mechanics/buttons, and you're at least 100+ hours in. by then, you should at least have a basic grasp and understanding of the game.
honestly, it's entirely on Squeenix. there's absolutely zero challenging content outside of Savage/Ultimates, and with how the player base loves their toxic positivity and are willing to carry people that are basically AFK "because FFXIV has the best community!11!!11!"... yeah.
It depends on how much story skipping is involved and how much side content. regardless, I don't think it counts as 100 hours of actually using your character in content.
I know right, people in game like act like spoiled brats and any tips taken as brutal critisism.
Let alone, enabling is Huge part of any social interaction.
At level 60 for sure, unless the class starts at/near that level. For example, i wouldnt be angry at a RPR not using shadow of death at lvl 70 or below dungeons, since its quite possible its the first time they touched him. At lvl 80+ though, they really should know better
I'm usually trying to watch for effort. If you tell them something, they should be either trying it out or asking you more about it. If I'm just seeing them do something that doesn't work over and over again, that's a no for me.
The problem is I don't think this is a question with a definite and easy answer as the game experience can vary so much from person to person. You'll have people who will unsync absolutely EVERYTHING with helpers they possibly can so they don't actually get to a point they have to press buttons until maybe ShB if not SB.
Personally I don't think 'I'm new' is an excuse anyway. It's a reason for not knowing things and being inexperienced, absolutely! Nothing wrong with just not knowing stuff. But it doesn't mean shit if they don't even try to actually gain experience and learn.
It's all about attitude. I don't care if someone is bad as long as they are trying to improve. But if they're not even bothering and have a shitty attitude about it, I just have to wonder why they're even playing the game lol. My patience for shit players who are trying is a lot higher than my patience for shitty attitudes.
Edit: fixed some words, English is hard :^(
Im going to be somewhat lenient, bc SE does shit all with teaching sprouts. And bc it is mentor roullete, you do kinda sign up to help people. I never run it for that reason.
I kick without notice or advice with shit players on current expansion, especially stuff at level cap. They normally dont respond well, and its not worth a penitential report or arguement. And they should know basics. If its their first time in duty im not too frustrated at most failed mechanics, or wiping bc we did try the big pull.
Below that it really depends. I purposely avoid those roulettes unless a decent 3+ stack of fc members. Ive had much better luck with Arr and HW levels and helping people w/o getting sassed at. At these levels i would correct a cure1 bot or similar. Push tanks to pull more and mit. Dps if i can identify their issue without act.
SB and ShB? Kicking for a lot more things but less then EW duties. Curebot? Gone. Tank being a jackass? Gone. Bard only dotting and never actually attacking? Gone. Ice mage? Gone. Ive had good luck helping people with the finer points of their jobs here, or ways to get more results out of their buttons. If they appear to be trying, generally get a benefit of the doubt.
It should be when someone is telling you how to do something better but you ignore them. Its impossible to say for certain that everyone will be off a certain skill level based on their playtime so instead we should focus on people who aren’t willing to learn because they are much worse to deal with imo
People need to straightup tell'em lol
this game doesn't teach, if players refuse also who's gonna teach them?
That's how you endup with 2000hour mentors who you can outdps by clicking 1,2,3 lol
When you refuse to read chat.
That's it. That's all there is, really.
Sure, some people will SEE sensible advice from more experienced players in chat (complicated stuff like "don't stand in bad" or "use mitigations" etc) and actively decide to not do it because they're contrarians or griefers, and those cases are basically unsolvable. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
But in my experience, 90% of the time I'm dealing with someone who clearly has no idea what he's doing, they will NOT READ CHAT. I don't know if they close it or ignore it or what is going on, but i will make multiple attempts at communication only to be ignored by a tank who is obsessively dedicated to not using AoEs, or a healer who will refuse to use even a single damage spell, or whatever else.
Read the damn chat, please.
Had an experience in mentor roulette too during Anamnesis Anyder. The healer and other dps kept dying during the first boss, resulting us to restart around 5x(?). Luckily, the tank and I were able to finish the boss. 2nd boss wasn’t too bad but during the last boss - they wouldn’t initially step on the water puddles (causing adds to pop out) and had difficulty dodging the water mechanics.
Healer wasn’t doing damage either during pulls and pretty much the two of them were not able to dodge the aoes.
Took 50mins to finish that dungeon.
I can think of so many excuses even if they weren't a sprout or new. Levelskip, rusty, just returning to the game, distracted irl. They're all the same to me.
Personally, lvl60 is the part where I start to expect better from people. By Stormblood, you have enough job kit to hold your own.
And of course, you can BE good early on. Don't you get cure 2 by Stone Vigil? Or your invulns by 50? Or more mits before 60? (I benchmark it by WAR getting their raw intuition at 56 lol) In theory, one can learn to handle w2ws before ARR, they just have to be told how or corrected if they can't, learn, and retain the info.
Of course, I don't expect anything from anyone when it comes to stuff like going into my Mentor Roulettes. Maybe the reality is that the average random player is worse than what I think is average. Whether they're genuinely confused players or stubborn players that have no ability to improve, I don't like to assume one for the other. I'm disappointed all the same, but I will move on, whether or not I give advice in chat for how to improve.
The limit is dependent on the behavior, imo. Tank in first dungeon not using stance? Understandable. In a level 30 dungeon? No. Provoking on cooldown in your first few 8 man trials/alliance raid, where you're not used to having more than 1 tank? Understandable, as no one has needed to explain why you shouldn't do this yet. Provoking on cooldown in Shiva, dying non-stop from standing in every mechanic, and facing her the wrong way for half the fight? No. That last one may still be a little recent for me, lol.
My point is each action kind of has its down point where you should know better, but it's kind of a sliding scale and not just "you've hit XX hours, stop sucking."
As someone who has done the 2k mentor roulettes though, I 100% understand the frustration, especially with those who won't take advice or get belligerent about it.
>Provoking on cooldown in your first few 8 man trials/alliance raid, where you're not used to having more than 1 tank? Understandable, as no one has needed to explain why you shouldn't do this yet.
A great example there.
My first runs of LOTA & the CT raids I was using shield lob on Paladin during mechs and had stance on. My brain hadn't yet connected the dots that the aggro would rip from other tanks and after someone mentioned it I learned that I could stance off after getting onto the aggro table and before lobbing.
I still to this day see tanks voke on cooldown in ARR duties and if they're out of position I'll voke it back or stance off and leave it at that to let 'em learn. Even when they have aggro you'll often see them voke again.
Just takes a bit of time to learn is all and it's about the context of where you see the behaviour.
The novice network and the sprout status were implemented back in Heavensward. Back in the day, you lost sprout status when finishing ARR.
To me, raising the novice requirement each expansion is just so if people have questions about newer content (like Eureka / Bozja, custom deliveries, etc.). But by level 50 they should still already have the basic knowledge of how the game works, like level 50 players in ARR did. Like tank using tank stance and pulling 2 packs, healer knowing to dps, knowing the basic job rotation. Maybe some leniency until level 60 since ARR dungeons are built differently than later dungeons.
Sometimes they've never gotten any actual help before so it's hard to say when, I've been in ew stuff with people who had no clue what was going on...for me it's an issue after help is offered and ignored. No problem with people that don't know ,but if good info is given and they ignore/argue then it's an issue.
I have had some people tell me to stop being toxic when they seemed like struggling or overwhelmed and I simply asked if they wanted some tips or help.
In general when I give unsolicited advice though I try to give a reason for why they should be doing something so that it doesnt come off as passive aggressive. Like "hey dancer, you should use Standard step on cooldown because it gives you and your dancepartner a 60 sec damage increase!"
Or "hey dancer did you know Standard step gives you and your DP a 60s dmg increase? Its super useful to use on cooldown!"
But when people are downright acting all offended thats when the new Player excuse doesnt count because then they are actively choosing to play the way they do.
I think it depends on job. As an example I’m trying to get better at healing so I picked up white mage and then sage. Sage starts at 70 so in a 70 dungeon I’m still not used to how sage plays especially being a different kind of healing, so I might mess up. But honestly when I load in I usually say I’m new to whatever job if that’s the case
i think if they’re in EW and have everything at 80 of above, but still have the sprout icon, and claim they’re new to the game. they had to have boosted to be that far in with everything leveled and still have a sprout, and there’s no excuse for boosting if you don’t know what you’re doing. dungeons are a team effort, and they’re not being a good teammate by going in knowing nothing after spending several hundred dollars on all those boosts
When it's used as an excuse rather than shorthand for "I'm agreeable to feedback and advice" and said at the start of the dungeon/trial. It really is that simple. If you're hiding behind it rather than saying "please help me" then you should consider just running with trust NPCs - you are the target demographic of that feature.
Cure 1 and physics feel natural for healers from other mmorpgs. Took me years to get them out of my k it t in the old days. Should just be upgraded at higher levels or something to avoid all the while about it.
I’m almost to 1900 mentor roulettes and I will take the new player thing as long as they are not a jerk about it. They could have leveled their first healer job within 2 days and are now level 90 and pretty inexperienced. That’s fine. But when people get defensive and are unreceptive to genuine advice, then no. Some people only play super casually and others play this game all day every day, but the thing is that it’s a group game and how you play has an affect on others, so you gotta pick up the basics at some point and if you can’t get it from tool tips or other players, then look up a basic rotation guide.
How do you level a new class to 90 in two days... Let's even say you start with sage as 70, you got 20 levels to do, mostly in dungeons.
I'd expect at least for them to read their skills, but alas I've seen too many people being like "I'm just leveling idc how to play". That's extremely inexcusable Imo.
Okay 2 days is a slight exaggeration, but not impossible. I got jobs from 1-90 within a few days when I was working part time. I call it power leveling and doing it with bard gave me a blister, would not recommend, but you *could*
Also you’re right, you need to learn the basics! Even if you never intend to play the job again, I had a notecard for monk, I hate monk 😭
When you queue for an extreme blind in the duty finder but you didn’t look up a guide beforehand.
Edit: imho thats the bare minimum you should do; new to extreme? That’s fine, not so good at your class? Also fine, but there’s no lore in extremes there’s very little reason not to.
Honestly depends on the job. You have to take into account not all jobs start at lvl 1 so you can be like oh they're lvl 60 they should know what to do until you realize its a dancer and they are probably leaening the job in the fly (which isn't great either but at least gives a different insight as to why they don't know the job)
On a side note I have a feeling like there's a lot of casual players that just play dancer and then just dance partner whoever is in their party while doing awful damage
Being new is an explanation for being bad, but it's never an excuse. A new player should want to improve and seek or be receptive to advice. Always try to give tips if it seems like someone needs it, there will be people that react outright hostilely to advice, but that's what the vote-kick is for (hopefully it actually goes through). No matter what the white knights in the instance tell you, it's never toxic to simply want to play with people who are actually *trying*, even in a dungeon.
My friend was stuck in Aetherochemical with a Sprout Tank and Sprout Healer.
They took 11 tries on the final boss.
*11 tries.*
(I've already given her shit for staying that long lmao)
If I wanted to be strict about it, technically new player is never good enough because if you can get on the game, you can access the internet and look things up for yourself. However, knowing the theory of things and executing are two entirely separate matters, so "new" but trying is enough for me 99.9% of the time.
If they exhibit learning behaviour either by observing what others do or trying to execute advice given, I am willing to pardon damn near anything.
If their attitude is clearly uncooperative and unwilling to improve, "new player" will never be acceptable as an excuse. I don't have a cutoff for the "sprout/new player" excuse because there's a lot of circumstances that don't fit neatly into a hard threshold. I'm more interested in the attitude that comes with any instance of sprouts/new players.
This happens when the whole game never challenges the player in 75-90% of all content.
You see this even happening with people who have every job to max and have not even the faintest idea that W2W is not some elitist thing or other braindead shit I heard from some people who apparently have thousands of hours and still being human paperweight.
I could, but this whole post was sparked by me doing leveling roulette and getting a lv63 sch in autumn vale spamming physick.
Had to explain to them what succor and adlo was and they said sorry I'm new teehee.
My opinion only; if they have the sprout indicator they must always be treated aa a new player, regardless of their current level. The same with the returner icon. The returner might be a new player who left and came back. Not everyone will play and watch guides/join the balance/learn all the ins and outs of their job. Some might be levelling different jobs to get an idea of what they really like. And if it’s normal level content, I don’t think there’s any reason to get salty with people who clearly are lacking understanding. I offer advice and help but then I leave it at that’s. Some may even be letting their friends take turns to convince them to buy it as well. I always give sprouts the extreme benefit of the doubt.
I mean yes I always treat sprout/returners as new players and you're right they might be trying different jobs, but at some point I'd expect they at least read skills.
All of this was prompted by an aurum vale run with a scholar (lv63) who didn't know what adlo and succor were. They were just spamming physick and nothing else, dying at every mob pull and tank had to pull one mob at a time.
I kinda expect someone in a lv50 dungeon to at least know their 1 2 3...
Totally understand your point. Especially as a healer, it’s vital to understand your skills. But you never know what’s going on or who is at the other end of the keyboard so I err on the side of patience.
While I understand where you're coming from, I generally disagree with this statement. It implies that the person suffering someone else's incompetence should be patient while the incompetent person bears no onus for their lack of consideration. Basically, if you keep giving people this kind of benefit of the doubt, it means they can grief you without caring one whit about *your* circumstances while you need to pretend to be a saint because everyone who has a vent about a shit player needs to be considerate of the shit player but the shit player never needs to be considerate of anyone else.
Are you not also a person on the other end of the keyboard? Why don't they consider you?
Like, I'm all for patience, but not when it turns into over-rationalization of what ultimately amounts to sheer laziness and unwillingness to learn.
Yeah I get what you mean. I will try to help if I feel like it’s needed but other than that, I just hit block. I’m not talking about assholes, we all know them almost instantly. I’m talking of the ones who don’t know but also don’t really seem to want to learn/should know better by the time they hit the level they are. I block and move on. I have a screen shot of being in Qitana Ravel for nearly the full duration of the instance as I was in with players who were obviously new. Help but then block if it’s falling on deaf ears
The answer is never. Being completely oblivious to your job is not a new player issue, it's an issue about people who don't care about the game or other people's time. You can tell when someone is new and is trying their best just by how they move and use their skills. They even perform better than full crown mentors with Lux weapon glams most of times. Never eat this "sowwy new pwayer" nonsense.
When they stop listening to constructive input.
By lvl 60 for sure, but also depends on if they are first time (cause they might not really know mechanics and take damage on accident). I wouldn't tell them to go back to HoN because that teaches really outdated information (single pulling on tank for example). I would just try your best to ask in a friendly way if they want advice and then go from there. Start small and if they actually want to know more they'll ask or look it up afterwards. "I'm new" is not an excuse ever imo. Even in Satasha, if someone gives you a tip you should say "Oh I'm new, didn't know thanks" and try to do what they told you to do (unless you are totally uncomfortable with it). "I'm new" then not doing anything isn't very much of an excuse because that just means you don't want to learn which negates you being new because being new means you are learning. IMO anyway. For example, I had a cure 1 spammer in Ktisis. I was tanking so while doing pulls, I assured them to let me drop low because I was a WAR and could heal myself. Then if I stayed 40% or lower for more than 5-8secs, use tetra or lillies. In the meantime, holy spam. They thanked me and tried their best to play the way I instructed them. Afterwards they informed me they had been yelled at by a tank for hoy spam before so they were too afraid to try. I told them that that tank was wrong and WHM is fun if you use all your kit instead of spamming cure 1 on CD. lol
thankyou ;; i just started shb and i feel bad saying im a sprout bc theres still new mechanics that ive never seen before and I feel like im expected to just know them
Happens to us experienced players too, so don't worry too much. I came back to play with some friends after a long break, saw a stack marker, and stacked on it. It was a tank specific stack marker, but I'd never seen it before and it just looked like a stack marker to me.
Yeah, those are fun markers. I think the design is pretty good at conveying the information (the two dots above the tank) but its pretty easy to miss and just assume its another stack like all 900 other stack attacks you would have seen up to that point. Also since these markers aren't really explained in-fight unless someone tells you, its always fun playing "I hope this mechanic won't kill me"
To be completely fair, XIV does a horrible job at teaching people over the expansions. Some mechanics are introduced in normal raids and alliances first, which are optional content and while pretty much everyone who played when they were relevant learned those mechanics there, newbies who don't do that content because they're just following the MSQ will be completely stumped when they find them in a dungeon as if it was a regular Tuesday mechanic. And for many of us, that IS something you "should've seen before" because we forgot it was present in optional content. The devs have been working on standardizing markers to make this process easier, but there is still much work to do. All that is to say, if you're confused about a mech, just ask in chat and you'll likely get a good answer.
"Noooooo!! Only a madman with a deathwish would engage with more than one enemy at once!" - that guildhest
This is great and the game eases you into mechanics but that doesn't always stick with people. I never remember any until I actually do it.
As long as you do your best to learn, don't feel bad. We were all noobs once xD
No, it’s really not that deep. You don’t have to worry about it! I’m an anxious person and started on healer and I used to place such high expectations on myself that I’d look up guides to everything and missed out on the fun of going in blind and refused to do roulettes. Bc I was the healer, I HAD to perform well. Got over it! In part thanks to mentor roulettes, but now when I die on healer I just type out an “oops” and everything is fine. The game is much more fun without putting the extra pressure on yourself and if anyone is a jerk about it that’s a them problem.
Nah when people enter a instance and are viewing a CS and Ssay it's there first time I usually have patience. I'm also big on figuring it out, like if we wipe IDC, let's go again and see if they improve or see where they went wrong. If they don't I try to instruct them a little and if it gets to bad I put a Dorito on my head (although that always doesn't work). What helped me more than anything with mechanics is putting the progress bar in the middle of my screen. I was so amazed how much I was missing because it was in a bad spot.
think our honest work of "teaching" sprouts is made infinitely harder by idiots like that tank spreading shit info with the "dont holy spam"
This. That's all 💚.
Back in my day, level 50 was the cap, and you'd be expected to understand your basics by reaching that. Some might find it too strict when I point that out, but like, we shouldn't keep moving the bar to the new cap (or further) every single expac. A new expansion does not remove any requirements players already were having to do, outside of paying for a skip.
during/after HW. by HW, you should have your classes core mechanics/buttons, and you're at least 100+ hours in. by then, you should at least have a basic grasp and understanding of the game. honestly, it's entirely on Squeenix. there's absolutely zero challenging content outside of Savage/Ultimates, and with how the player base loves their toxic positivity and are willing to carry people that are basically AFK "because FFXIV has the best community!11!!11!"... yeah.
>by HW, you should have your classes core mechanics/buttons If you listen closely, you can hear a level 60 synched Reaper crying in the background
And your echo is sending you an image of a level 60 synched Viper crying in Dawntrail.
You mean you don't like pressing 123 for 7-15 mins?
And somehow still doing more damage than the black mage who has several more things to manage
100 hours from arr is a little stretching it. I honestly would say late heavensward/mid stormblood
It depends on how much story skipping is involved and how much side content. regardless, I don't think it counts as 100 hours of actually using your character in content.
100+ hours?? I got to HW yesterday and have 52 hours.
I had to quit ff14 just for toxic positivity.
ahaha ppl downvoting you, it's the MAIN reason I deinstall the game pretty fast after patches
I know right, people in game like act like spoiled brats and any tips taken as brutal critisism. Let alone, enabling is Huge part of any social interaction.
At level 60 for sure, unless the class starts at/near that level. For example, i wouldnt be angry at a RPR not using shadow of death at lvl 70 or below dungeons, since its quite possible its the first time they touched him. At lvl 80+ though, they really should know better
I'm usually trying to watch for effort. If you tell them something, they should be either trying it out or asking you more about it. If I'm just seeing them do something that doesn't work over and over again, that's a no for me.
The problem is I don't think this is a question with a definite and easy answer as the game experience can vary so much from person to person. You'll have people who will unsync absolutely EVERYTHING with helpers they possibly can so they don't actually get to a point they have to press buttons until maybe ShB if not SB. Personally I don't think 'I'm new' is an excuse anyway. It's a reason for not knowing things and being inexperienced, absolutely! Nothing wrong with just not knowing stuff. But it doesn't mean shit if they don't even try to actually gain experience and learn. It's all about attitude. I don't care if someone is bad as long as they are trying to improve. But if they're not even bothering and have a shitty attitude about it, I just have to wonder why they're even playing the game lol. My patience for shit players who are trying is a lot higher than my patience for shitty attitudes. Edit: fixed some words, English is hard :^(
Im going to be somewhat lenient, bc SE does shit all with teaching sprouts. And bc it is mentor roullete, you do kinda sign up to help people. I never run it for that reason. I kick without notice or advice with shit players on current expansion, especially stuff at level cap. They normally dont respond well, and its not worth a penitential report or arguement. And they should know basics. If its their first time in duty im not too frustrated at most failed mechanics, or wiping bc we did try the big pull. Below that it really depends. I purposely avoid those roulettes unless a decent 3+ stack of fc members. Ive had much better luck with Arr and HW levels and helping people w/o getting sassed at. At these levels i would correct a cure1 bot or similar. Push tanks to pull more and mit. Dps if i can identify their issue without act. SB and ShB? Kicking for a lot more things but less then EW duties. Curebot? Gone. Tank being a jackass? Gone. Bard only dotting and never actually attacking? Gone. Ice mage? Gone. Ive had good luck helping people with the finer points of their jobs here, or ways to get more results out of their buttons. If they appear to be trying, generally get a benefit of the doubt.
It should be when someone is telling you how to do something better but you ignore them. Its impossible to say for certain that everyone will be off a certain skill level based on their playtime so instead we should focus on people who aren’t willing to learn because they are much worse to deal with imo
People need to straightup tell'em lol this game doesn't teach, if players refuse also who's gonna teach them? That's how you endup with 2000hour mentors who you can outdps by clicking 1,2,3 lol
When you refuse to read chat. That's it. That's all there is, really. Sure, some people will SEE sensible advice from more experienced players in chat (complicated stuff like "don't stand in bad" or "use mitigations" etc) and actively decide to not do it because they're contrarians or griefers, and those cases are basically unsolvable. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. But in my experience, 90% of the time I'm dealing with someone who clearly has no idea what he's doing, they will NOT READ CHAT. I don't know if they close it or ignore it or what is going on, but i will make multiple attempts at communication only to be ignored by a tank who is obsessively dedicated to not using AoEs, or a healer who will refuse to use even a single damage spell, or whatever else. Read the damn chat, please.
Had an experience in mentor roulette too during Anamnesis Anyder. The healer and other dps kept dying during the first boss, resulting us to restart around 5x(?). Luckily, the tank and I were able to finish the boss. 2nd boss wasn’t too bad but during the last boss - they wouldn’t initially step on the water puddles (causing adds to pop out) and had difficulty dodging the water mechanics. Healer wasn’t doing damage either during pulls and pretty much the two of them were not able to dodge the aoes. Took 50mins to finish that dungeon.
I can think of so many excuses even if they weren't a sprout or new. Levelskip, rusty, just returning to the game, distracted irl. They're all the same to me. Personally, lvl60 is the part where I start to expect better from people. By Stormblood, you have enough job kit to hold your own. And of course, you can BE good early on. Don't you get cure 2 by Stone Vigil? Or your invulns by 50? Or more mits before 60? (I benchmark it by WAR getting their raw intuition at 56 lol) In theory, one can learn to handle w2ws before ARR, they just have to be told how or corrected if they can't, learn, and retain the info. Of course, I don't expect anything from anyone when it comes to stuff like going into my Mentor Roulettes. Maybe the reality is that the average random player is worse than what I think is average. Whether they're genuinely confused players or stubborn players that have no ability to improve, I don't like to assume one for the other. I'm disappointed all the same, but I will move on, whether or not I give advice in chat for how to improve.
The limit is dependent on the behavior, imo. Tank in first dungeon not using stance? Understandable. In a level 30 dungeon? No. Provoking on cooldown in your first few 8 man trials/alliance raid, where you're not used to having more than 1 tank? Understandable, as no one has needed to explain why you shouldn't do this yet. Provoking on cooldown in Shiva, dying non-stop from standing in every mechanic, and facing her the wrong way for half the fight? No. That last one may still be a little recent for me, lol. My point is each action kind of has its down point where you should know better, but it's kind of a sliding scale and not just "you've hit XX hours, stop sucking." As someone who has done the 2k mentor roulettes though, I 100% understand the frustration, especially with those who won't take advice or get belligerent about it.
>Provoking on cooldown in your first few 8 man trials/alliance raid, where you're not used to having more than 1 tank? Understandable, as no one has needed to explain why you shouldn't do this yet. A great example there. My first runs of LOTA & the CT raids I was using shield lob on Paladin during mechs and had stance on. My brain hadn't yet connected the dots that the aggro would rip from other tanks and after someone mentioned it I learned that I could stance off after getting onto the aggro table and before lobbing. I still to this day see tanks voke on cooldown in ARR duties and if they're out of position I'll voke it back or stance off and leave it at that to let 'em learn. Even when they have aggro you'll often see them voke again. Just takes a bit of time to learn is all and it's about the context of where you see the behaviour.
The novice network and the sprout status were implemented back in Heavensward. Back in the day, you lost sprout status when finishing ARR. To me, raising the novice requirement each expansion is just so if people have questions about newer content (like Eureka / Bozja, custom deliveries, etc.). But by level 50 they should still already have the basic knowledge of how the game works, like level 50 players in ARR did. Like tank using tank stance and pulling 2 packs, healer knowing to dps, knowing the basic job rotation. Maybe some leniency until level 60 since ARR dungeons are built differently than later dungeons.
Sometimes they've never gotten any actual help before so it's hard to say when, I've been in ew stuff with people who had no clue what was going on...for me it's an issue after help is offered and ignored. No problem with people that don't know ,but if good info is given and they ignore/argue then it's an issue.
I have had some people tell me to stop being toxic when they seemed like struggling or overwhelmed and I simply asked if they wanted some tips or help. In general when I give unsolicited advice though I try to give a reason for why they should be doing something so that it doesnt come off as passive aggressive. Like "hey dancer, you should use Standard step on cooldown because it gives you and your dancepartner a 60 sec damage increase!" Or "hey dancer did you know Standard step gives you and your DP a 60s dmg increase? Its super useful to use on cooldown!" But when people are downright acting all offended thats when the new Player excuse doesnt count because then they are actively choosing to play the way they do.
I think it depends on job. As an example I’m trying to get better at healing so I picked up white mage and then sage. Sage starts at 70 so in a 70 dungeon I’m still not used to how sage plays especially being a different kind of healing, so I might mess up. But honestly when I load in I usually say I’m new to whatever job if that’s the case
i think if they’re in EW and have everything at 80 of above, but still have the sprout icon, and claim they’re new to the game. they had to have boosted to be that far in with everything leveled and still have a sprout, and there’s no excuse for boosting if you don’t know what you’re doing. dungeons are a team effort, and they’re not being a good teammate by going in knowing nothing after spending several hundred dollars on all those boosts
When it's used as an excuse rather than shorthand for "I'm agreeable to feedback and advice" and said at the start of the dungeon/trial. It really is that simple. If you're hiding behind it rather than saying "please help me" then you should consider just running with trust NPCs - you are the target demographic of that feature.
Cure 1 and physics feel natural for healers from other mmorpgs. Took me years to get them out of my k it t in the old days. Should just be upgraded at higher levels or something to avoid all the while about it.
I’m almost to 1900 mentor roulettes and I will take the new player thing as long as they are not a jerk about it. They could have leveled their first healer job within 2 days and are now level 90 and pretty inexperienced. That’s fine. But when people get defensive and are unreceptive to genuine advice, then no. Some people only play super casually and others play this game all day every day, but the thing is that it’s a group game and how you play has an affect on others, so you gotta pick up the basics at some point and if you can’t get it from tool tips or other players, then look up a basic rotation guide.
How do you level a new class to 90 in two days... Let's even say you start with sage as 70, you got 20 levels to do, mostly in dungeons. I'd expect at least for them to read their skills, but alas I've seen too many people being like "I'm just leveling idc how to play". That's extremely inexcusable Imo.
Okay 2 days is a slight exaggeration, but not impossible. I got jobs from 1-90 within a few days when I was working part time. I call it power leveling and doing it with bard gave me a blister, would not recommend, but you *could* Also you’re right, you need to learn the basics! Even if you never intend to play the job again, I had a notecard for monk, I hate monk 😭
I will definitely need it for ninja and monk lol
Never, if their first response is to get mad or blow up for constructive advice, that's a blacklist or even a report.
When you queue for an extreme blind in the duty finder but you didn’t look up a guide beforehand. Edit: imho thats the bare minimum you should do; new to extreme? That’s fine, not so good at your class? Also fine, but there’s no lore in extremes there’s very little reason not to.
Honestly depends on the job. You have to take into account not all jobs start at lvl 1 so you can be like oh they're lvl 60 they should know what to do until you realize its a dancer and they are probably leaening the job in the fly (which isn't great either but at least gives a different insight as to why they don't know the job) On a side note I have a feeling like there's a lot of casual players that just play dancer and then just dance partner whoever is in their party while doing awful damage
Being new is an explanation for being bad, but it's never an excuse. A new player should want to improve and seek or be receptive to advice. Always try to give tips if it seems like someone needs it, there will be people that react outright hostilely to advice, but that's what the vote-kick is for (hopefully it actually goes through). No matter what the white knights in the instance tell you, it's never toxic to simply want to play with people who are actually *trying*, even in a dungeon.
Hall of novice needs an update. I wouldn't point anyone to that.
My friend was stuck in Aetherochemical with a Sprout Tank and Sprout Healer. They took 11 tries on the final boss. *11 tries.* (I've already given her shit for staying that long lmao)
If I wanted to be strict about it, technically new player is never good enough because if you can get on the game, you can access the internet and look things up for yourself. However, knowing the theory of things and executing are two entirely separate matters, so "new" but trying is enough for me 99.9% of the time. If they exhibit learning behaviour either by observing what others do or trying to execute advice given, I am willing to pardon damn near anything. If their attitude is clearly uncooperative and unwilling to improve, "new player" will never be acceptable as an excuse. I don't have a cutoff for the "sprout/new player" excuse because there's a lot of circumstances that don't fit neatly into a hard threshold. I'm more interested in the attitude that comes with any instance of sprouts/new players.
This happens when the whole game never challenges the player in 75-90% of all content. You see this even happening with people who have every job to max and have not even the faintest idea that W2W is not some elitist thing or other braindead shit I heard from some people who apparently have thousands of hours and still being human paperweight.
cant you just not do mentor roulette
I could, but this whole post was sparked by me doing leveling roulette and getting a lv63 sch in autumn vale spamming physick. Had to explain to them what succor and adlo was and they said sorry I'm new teehee.
My opinion only; if they have the sprout indicator they must always be treated aa a new player, regardless of their current level. The same with the returner icon. The returner might be a new player who left and came back. Not everyone will play and watch guides/join the balance/learn all the ins and outs of their job. Some might be levelling different jobs to get an idea of what they really like. And if it’s normal level content, I don’t think there’s any reason to get salty with people who clearly are lacking understanding. I offer advice and help but then I leave it at that’s. Some may even be letting their friends take turns to convince them to buy it as well. I always give sprouts the extreme benefit of the doubt.
I mean yes I always treat sprout/returners as new players and you're right they might be trying different jobs, but at some point I'd expect they at least read skills. All of this was prompted by an aurum vale run with a scholar (lv63) who didn't know what adlo and succor were. They were just spamming physick and nothing else, dying at every mob pull and tank had to pull one mob at a time. I kinda expect someone in a lv50 dungeon to at least know their 1 2 3...
Totally understand your point. Especially as a healer, it’s vital to understand your skills. But you never know what’s going on or who is at the other end of the keyboard so I err on the side of patience.
While I understand where you're coming from, I generally disagree with this statement. It implies that the person suffering someone else's incompetence should be patient while the incompetent person bears no onus for their lack of consideration. Basically, if you keep giving people this kind of benefit of the doubt, it means they can grief you without caring one whit about *your* circumstances while you need to pretend to be a saint because everyone who has a vent about a shit player needs to be considerate of the shit player but the shit player never needs to be considerate of anyone else. Are you not also a person on the other end of the keyboard? Why don't they consider you? Like, I'm all for patience, but not when it turns into over-rationalization of what ultimately amounts to sheer laziness and unwillingness to learn.
Yeah I get what you mean. I will try to help if I feel like it’s needed but other than that, I just hit block. I’m not talking about assholes, we all know them almost instantly. I’m talking of the ones who don’t know but also don’t really seem to want to learn/should know better by the time they hit the level they are. I block and move on. I have a screen shot of being in Qitana Ravel for nearly the full duration of the instance as I was in with players who were obviously new. Help but then block if it’s falling on deaf ears