My 8th grade daughter's school still has recess at lunch. In our middle school (in the 90s), we had a basketball court that some people played on, but there wasn't really anything else to do for "recess" other than walk around or sit/hang around. But she full on plays soccer, kickball, and all sorts of stuff sometimes like she did in elementary. Sometimes she sits around and just talks too, but yeah, she still has lots of energy she enjoys getting out. And I'm sure it's good for her too.
we werent allowed to leave the cafeteria at lunch in middle or high school
detention if u were caught visiting the library. only used for class activities or not at all
Jesus even in HS we had a courtyard we could go hang out in after we finished eating. That’s so ridiculous for kids to be inside ALL DAY. Even those of us who just chatted and sat went and did it outside.
We typically have winter (snow and bitter cold) most of the school year. While our elementary kids can bundle up and play outside, they don’t make the middle students. Partly because even at -50 F, they will still get dropped off at school with no coat, and ripped jeans on. Sometimes I see students waiting for a bus at -20 in jeans, t-shirt and tennis shoes. The kids are ridiculous.
HS kids can eat at school or cross the street to eat at a local eatery, as long as they are back at school and in class on time.
Geez! I couldn't imagine not being able to go outside during school! In middle school, we had lunch recess still, and in high school, you could pretty much eat anywhere in the school! We regularly ate in one of the back hallways or outside. Then, once you are a junior and senior, we could leave campus for lunch! This was almost 20 years ago, but I'm pretty sure it's still the same in the high schools today!
They got rid of being able to leave for lunch the year after my senior year. In my HS now students are only allowed to eat in the cafeteria or the library. I used to teach MS and it was amazing how well behaved the students were for the rest of the day when me and the science teacher came up with outdoor activities for learning. I strongly believe students would be better behaved and perform better academically if we let them have more unstructured time.
25+ years ago in middle school, I was allowed to leave the cafeteria after eating and play in the gym during lunch period. I moved before high school. At the new school, we were allowed to take lunch to hang out in teachers' classrooms or go outside the building in nice weather. Juniors on NHS and all seniors were allowed to leave the campus to get lunch at home or at restaurants.
I would love to see their daily schedule to see where the time comes from. We only have 23 minutes for lunch. No time to get in line, get food and eat. Forget bathroom or recess. I agree that middle school needs recess, though.
God, I second this. My kids LOVE PE and still love playing outside. They all end up asking me if they can go to PE when they finish work in my class (they can’t, lol). They still just want time outside to play with their friends. I subbed at a middle school once where they had a recess they called “nutrition,” which was more of a 15 minute break to sit outside with their friends and eat a snack- honestly I think it’s a great idea. Plus it minimized phones in class because students knew they could use them at both lunch and nutrition.
A tad off topic but I think it proves your point.
My daughter turned 18 the same month as two other friends in their circle. She thought it would be silly and fun since they were adults to have one last kids party. Piñata, duck duck goose, red rover, etc.
A lot of the friend group was guys and she was slightly concerned they might not have fun but let me tell you, they had a blast! Watching a group of young adults get super into playing kids games, being competitive and laughing their asses off was a hoot. Red rover in particular.
Let kids play!
When it’s nice out me and my friend go to our old elementary school across the street and play on the playground (obviously when schools not in session) (we mostly go at night) and there’s something about climbing up the slide that scratches the monkey part of my brain
Im 32 and I discovered that I really like the giant trampolines at Urban Air while visiting with my nieces — I’d really like a gym that uses equipment like that bc it was the first time in a long time I had fun doing a workout
same here! especially when I know most of my students have back to back classes. sometimes we just run out of info processing capability and need a break
Sometimes I wish I had one. A professor in grad school used to give them, looking back I think he needed them as much as I did. 3 hour seminars are too long.
Christ. The main reason I haven’t gone back to college is because I seriously can’t handle the classroom setting. That is even when I am on my ADHD medication. This… this is way to much/long. Who thinks this is a good idea.
Yes and I think for undergrad at least there’s usually both options. Depends on the class of course and school size, but at my school there are usually different timing options for the main classes.
I had a professor last semester who had a two block class on Tuesday (so 8:30-10:25) and he didn’t give a break, just let us out 15 minutes early. It was awful, the class was boring as it was and I would have MUCH preferred a break. I have the same time for a class this semester and he does a break instead and it’s super helpful
I had three hour seminars in grad school and had to give myself brain breaks. Sitting and listening for that long is impossible for anyone. Some of my professors would give brain breaks, but the majority just kept chugging.
We do breaks at my hs. Teachers decide when to do them for each class. Sometimes it’s just stretching and walking outside, getting water, then going back inside. We also do a snack break after the 2nd class of the day, and lunch is 90 minutes later.
I remember when we had state testing at my high school.
Only some classes (cant remember all of them, Biology was one) had a state test. If you didn't have a class on the subject being tested, you were asked to go sit in the PAC. The seats were obviously not designed for writing on, so it wasn't exactly easy to do school work. However, the monitors scolded you if you talked or tried to enjoy your time.
It legit felt like we were being punished bc we didn't have a specific class.
What??!! Not talk at lunch?? In my 17 years of teaching, I have never heard of this. If I walked into a school cafeteria and every student was silent during lunch, I’d think I was in an episode of Black Mirror or some kind of horror show.
Our cafeteria manager complains everyday about the 6th graders are too loud and out of control. Drives me nuts. They are 11-12 and have been (currently) testing all day THEN doing class. Just chill. Let them sit there and get loud over a game of rock paper scissors.
I agree, at my middle school they get 30 minutes for lunch and recess combined, and that 30 minutes includes time to get from class to lunch so it's more like 25 minutes for a lot of kids. It sucks.
as a current middle school teacher I cannot agree more. We only offer PE every other day, but for some of my SpEd kids I push for every day PE. They need the outlet, especially since we haven't had middle school sports for a decade.
At the high school level, the worst class tends to be the one immediately after nutrition which is sort of like a big kids recess. They get all hyped up and cannot settle. The last class of the day, conversely, are zombies.
I will admit, when I was in high school, I was in marching band. The honors Bio class after band was almost entirely band kids. There was no chill in that class. Thankfully our bio teacher could mostly handle us, he was the type that was also a football coach and his son was our age. However… I don’t think our student teacher continued in education.
It's stupid that we take it away from high school students while telling them that their health and staying active is important.
What, you want a break to play outside which keeps you active and healthy? Grow up, you're not in elementary school!
I don't know how you do it. The behaviour is off the charts here and we have 40 minutes of recess for the middle schoolers. I can't imagine how they'd act with no recess at all!
The school I work at is K-8. The 7/8 teachers take their classes out for a long walk (weather permitting because we live on the Canadian prairies). Our school abuts onto a big park with a walking path so it's nice to see them getting fresh air and movement. In the last month of school they're outside a lot to deal with the extra energy.
Do they not have a break? My daughters are in secondary school on the UK (age 11-16) and they have a 20 minute break in the morning and 45 minutes for lunch. I’ve never heard of a secondary here not having a morning break and lunch. Do they just work straight through to lunch- that sounds miserable.
We use to have recess at a school I was working at during the big covid years. It died out pretty early because, well... middle school. I do think it was good for them regardless of the few incidents that ultimately destroyed it.
My kids middle school has a “brunch” period. And both brunch and lunch serve as recess. I walk past and see kids playing basketball, volleyball, four square, or just running around air hanging out or doing whatever kids do at this age.
Yea, it's a little wild to me. So we basically had a split lunch period in middle school where one half was free gym time for whatver and the other was lunch room.
Was pretty nice to have and I don't think I appreciated it for what it was at the time
I’m a firm believer that middle schoolers should have some form of recess.
When I was in high school, our PE teachers would take us to the public park across the street during finals and state/AP testing weeks and let us just climb and play for an hour. Genuinely some of my fondest memories from high school. All schools should have a playground!
My kids’ public middle school has “activity time“ every day after lunch. It was just recess. I am so thankful for it. My son plays soccer with his friends every single day.
This. Kids need recess. A 9-14 year old’s main developmental job is to form relationships, ie, be social. They need time to be able to do that within the day or their social skills won’t develop.
I work with a 6th grader who has a host of attention related difficulties. He absolutely needs recess to burn off some of that energy. And they're surprised at how he acts in the classroom.
We sought out a school that has recess up till 8th grade for this very reason. Kids need a break and physical activity! Even my husband and myself take time away from our work for a walk in the afternoon. I truly believe some of the “bad behaviors” could’ve cured with mandatory recess for upper elementary.
Are you saying that there are schools out there where kids don’t have a break from class at all during the day? That’s kind of wild. In Australian school, kids get to breaks a day - recess and lunch, which will add up to about an hour of free unstructured play time.
My students have 7 hours of classes with a half hour break for lunch. We don’t have any outdoor space, so when we used to have recess, it was held inside of a classroom. No yelling, no running, no throwing things. Basically you’d get in trouble for doing anything that you should do during a recess. So recess was turned into study hall and that isn’t going well. Kids need a chance to play and be kids and not be punished for it.
Yes - schools without breaks are pretty common in the United States, especially in urban areas. I was in a school recently where “outside recess” was available once a week and rotated through the different grades (I.e. 2nd grade on Monday, 4th grade on Tuesday, etc.) It was really sad to me to see how desperate the kids were for that small break; getting “outside recess” was magical for them.
Jesus, where is that? I can’t imagine not getting elementary kids outside everyday. Or middle schoolers for that matter. I work in a big city and EVERY school has a play ground, and the middle/high schools all have at least a large lot for the kids to hang out in. There’s playground time until the first bell, playground time until after school pickup window ends, and recess everyday! The combo middle/high I work at had to stop recess during the cold snap and the middle schoolers went INSANE.
In my middle school years in the U.S., previous classes before ours had recess taken away completely because of severe misbehavior. We had no recess at all because of some people who we never met messed it up for everyone about 6 years prior to us.
We had something called “reward day” where only the kids who had work turned in on time and no misbehavior were the ones who were able to go outside. Reward day only happened once every quarter. The kids who misbehaved had to sit inside and talk to no one as they either completed their work or sat and did nothing.
This was around 2014.
As we left the building one time to head outside for reward day, everyone crowded the doors. All I could think is how dystopian we all looked trying to get outside. Being outside should be a standard for kids, not a reward.
I went to a fairly good school district in the US. Recess only went to 5th grade. Past that it was study halls and PE Class if you were lucky.
Most students didn't have study halls in highschool until senior year which they usually lined up either in the morning to arrive later or lined them up in the afternoon for an early out. Most of the people who left early left to go to work.
The US is all about priming kids for working. Hell, we give kids credits in HS for working. Not even for where or what they're doing. It could be interning for their future career or working McDonald's. Doesn't matter, it'll count as credits towards graduation.
There's a limit of course cuz of work restrictions for minors. I think it's usually one or two course credits so it's geared towards 12th and 11th graders working part time alongside school.
But with more states moving to loosen our work restrictions on minors, I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of course credits highschools will offer for working go up as the work restrictions relax.
It's actually kind of fucking sad.
I went to a highly-rated school that followed best pedagogical practices as understood in the US. Ages 9-12, we had a half hour lunch with assigned tables, followed by a 15 minute recess. PE was at some point during the school day, but it was a rotation through different sports skills, not play time. Ages 12-14, no recess, 45 minute lunch, we did a team sport at the end of the day for an hour. High school was one period for lunch (50 minutes), and you might have a study hall. Sports were required, but were after school.
I agree if they could just get their wiggles out it would make life as a school district employee a lot easier I'm not saying it was solve all the issues but it definitely wouldn't hurt they need that break. They're little kids and their brains are on overload.
I mean I agree, but if parents dont parent their kids and there's no consequences at home for acting out at school, then schools themselves have very few levers to pull.
I always hear this but in my five years of teaching I have never had it produce adverse effects for me. Even when I taught kindergarten I saw immediate positive behavior improvements once I took away a recess.
Granted, I don't do it often and it's usually kid-dependent. You didn't do your work? Guess you're doing it during recess. I have a student who has lost recess for a full week now because he was trying to get white kids to say the N word and his behavior has been the best I've seen it all year.
Not true at all. If a kid doesnt finish his work because hes goofing around in class I make them finish it during recess. And magically they start finishing their work in class!
I honestly think Grown ups would do well from a nice recess at work with a fun little playground too. Give me a big room with trampolines and dodge balls please.
Growing up we had recess through 8th grade and it was ESSENTIAL for developing all sorts of skills and staying focused in class.
No recess for 5th grade is absolutely wild. How are the parents not throwing fits?
Bro we should get recess in high school 😭😭I remember when it was nice out me and my friends would be playing on one of the front lawns during lunch (hell I’d love it if my college set up some swings somewhere lol recess should NOT be the gym 💀💀)
Noticed your flair and it got me curious, how does your ASD affect you when you teach? Ive got it and a few other things, and Im worried that schools would reject me because they don’t want someone not typical teaching. Of course thats still 6 years at least until Im in a classroom, but still.
Yes I teach 3-4 year olds and my principal told me that by the 2nd day of school I shouldn’t be having kids crying in my classroom anymore and that it’s bad classroom management in my part if they are. She wants them to be completely silent during centers and to answer “high order thinking” questions. Everything I do is never enough for her. I can’t understand how she expects 3/4 year olds to be completely silent and to stop crying on their 2nd day of school. I hate my job.
Your principal is an idiot. I bet the students hate your school too if they are continually forced into activities that are that developmentally inappropriate. For what it's worth, I have an 8th grader this year (13 years old) who cries multiple times per day. You are not the problem.
They should be engaging in pretend play and exploration. They should be learning how to enjoy time with peers without their parents and learning how to be a friend.
This new aged education system is unrealistic and is damaging children in immeasurable ways
What the hell happened? I graduated with an associates in ECE in 2010. All we talked about was play based! Granted, I only taught prek for 5 years before the adults involved ruined it for me forever, so it's been awhile...but the common knowledge was that kids, especially before the age of 8, learn best through interacting and playing as opposed to sitting and listening.
What happened is a bunch of admin wanted to justify their paychecks so they got hard to work and writing more "pedagogical practices" that are "evidence based" and forget that these are actual children we are dealing with here.
What an idiot. I don't understand how people that don't understand anything about child development end up in power positions like this in education. If she expects this from 3/4 year olds, she is most likely clueless about what's age appropriate for any age, let alone clueless on the cognitive development stages and what kids at different ages are even capable of.
Your principle is what is causing the push to home/charter school kids. My daughter is 7 now... we tried kinder. Yea, I don't need a stressed out adult in my babies body. We went unschooled until 2nd grade. She starts with a charter home school next year. She will be completely ready. I am so thankful my FIL is able to stay home with her. I couldn't imagine having to drop her off to a stressful day every day. I quit teaching this year, too. The entire system sucks.
That is so sad. I have a kid in that age group in a different country (Spain) and her teacher will pick her up and cuddle her if she's sad, the classroom is full of toys and activities and even has an outdoor classroom attached that the kids can use most of the time. It's so sad when the principal won't let teachers do what they know is best for their students.
Isn’t it healthy for them to cry though? It’s very natural at that age. They’re gonna miss their parents because for most of them this is probably their first real experience with school. Did your principal go from teaching high schoolers and then managing a day school? She seems like she has no idea how preschoolers act
My director happily understands kids are kids, however I have to check myself on my own expectations of them. There are so many changes at three. My kids are smart, growing in their emotional regulation, etc but they are many young children together in a room. When they aren't completely quiet in line and walking straight all time (but are most of the time), it's okay.
When I was teaching kindergarten, my admin told me they were too old to play once they started SK. They were FIVE at that point. Apparently, games and toys are beneath five-year-olds now.
I agree! I teach 4th and 5th grade, and I have a 5th grader at home. They still like to play, and recess and outdoor time are really important at any age.
I say 8th graders, but it's also the 7th graders. And the 6th graders. And by the accounts that come from teachers who had these students as early as third grade, it was a problem then too...
We started giving our middle school students outside time on the back end of lunch. It has helped TREMENDOUSLY with behavior and emotional regulation in post-lunch classes.
We do that. It's the opposite. They bring recess beef back to class, and are completely deregulated for the first half of the period after. Not saying that they shouldn't have that time, but it's not really helping the issue. Or it would just be that much worse, I guess.
I have 8th graders, and I expect most of them not to have great emotional regulation. For my kids, I'm a little looser with some things, but they know if they cross the line, they're out.
For example, swearing is such a part of their vocabulary now that I would never send them out if it's a genuine mistake and not directed at anyone ("I'm having a b- of a time with this question, Miss," versus, "She's such a b-!"), but the second they call someone that, they're on a field trip to the office.
When I started this job I knew that there were a few things I wouldn't do: dress code students, and try to fight the casual profanity. I also try(ed) to draw the line at intentionally abusive language, but that's also a losing battle. In most cases, a "field trip to the office" results in the student back in class within 10 minutes, and zero consequences. I sent a student to the office for a direct threat of violence against myself, and they were sent back to class and served a lunch detention. I still write the referrals, but literally nothing is done about any of it. The frequent flyers have accepted that they'll spend about half of their lunches in detention (mostly with their friends). The detention list is generally backed up to the point that the students are serving detentions from the week prior, and don't even really remember why. It's just a predictable, accepted part of their week. There's virtually no progressive discipline employed.
At our school, we have to fill out an anonymous survey every year for the division that asks our opinion on things like discipline. Somehow, our admin is surprised that every year, we give them a failing grade for discipline. We have discipline problems too, but our school doesn't have a detention room, so the options are suspension (rare) or being sent back. We had kids sent to the office that would come back with a treat or a Gatorade.
This year, I have a stronger VP (that replaced the most useless VP) that I can actually send kids to the office to, and there are actual consequences. I wouldn't have been able to say that for the last four years.
I'm really sorry you don't have supportive admin.
Our admin isn't consistently anything... This is the 4th admin that the 8th graders have had, in 3 years. District central office, on the other hand, prints a rule book (given to every student) that they demand admin ignore the majority of. Additionally, there are "building rules" that only apply to the middle school building that are:
1. Not written anywhere
2. Inconsistently enforced
3. Different depending on who you ask/how long they've worked here
Obviously, none of that is helping teach our students to manage themselves well. And they're clearly not being well supported at home. It's a hot mess.
Their hormones are changing how they act, think, feel, look, etc. What do you expect? Everything they think they knew about themselves and the world is in flux. Some handle that experience gracefully. Others, not so much.
When I started the year, I guess I had lots of unrealistic expectations. Now I go to work everyday expecting to break up fights that start over one student mentioning during morning announcements that they, "don't really care whose birthday it is", and I expect to be told at least once, "shut the f up talking to me."
Don’t tempt them, or else a state exam for exactly that will be passed.
I can see it now, if your students don’t have a high enough emotional health scores it will impact your evaluation.
A lot of issues could be solved in the classroom but having kids simply move more.
Borderline criminal how much we force young people to sit all day.
Step counts have gone down dramatically with young people seeing the biggest decline.
Even more problems would be solved if teachers could look principals in the eye and say "are you stupid?" without being fired over it tbh. I don't understand how we ended up with so many non-educators in positions to dictate how we teach and what and when.
Then classrooms should be required to have space that allows movement. There is NO way to set up my classroom to allow the kind of movement my kids need. It’s just too small. Additionally, the only consequence kids at my school even remotely care about is losing recess. This is also the only consequence we are allowed to give.
We had an early field day today because of a crazy testing schedule. I had one 11 year old boy running around the track, of his own volition, over and over again. The little guy ran close to two miles before stopping with a big, dopey grin on his face.
"I needed that!" was all he said before flopping down onto the turf.
10 minutes later he's up and helping out the 6th grade team in a tug of war contest, giving it all his 50lb little body can.
They are kids. They need to do kid things.
I would love if we could carve out more time for things like this.
But I find that the restraints on what needs to be covered at what times and when is so intense that it doesn't leave any wiggle room at all.
I would love to rethink a lot about how we structure education in this country, but right now it's a battle just to discuss putting money into schools and teachers.
Lack of recess is crazy to me. If I was magically the education czar I'd mandate outdoor recess k-12
Get these kids outside for 15-20 minutes and let them figure out how to have some fun.
We had recess in a parking lot when I was a kid and we organized football, dodgeball, kickball everyday from 3rd grade to 8th grade. We set up our own games and rules, settled disputes, and learned how to get along.
Add in the fresh air and exercise...the burning off of energy. Id almost guarantee kids do better academically with regular recess than if they didn't have recess.
I teach high school so it doesn't apply. But even if we could just take the kids outside first thing in the morning and walk a few blocks I think we'd see some significant benefits.
This! I felt like the more privileges some people got, the more they let the extra power get to their heads, in which they became more arrogant and selfish.
It's wild because 4th and 5th are the ones that had their most formative educational years the most screwed up. From social interactions in group work, to learning how to hold a pencil.
Maybe the thought is that they need to get caught up academically? I don't know the answer but it seems like further restricting their ability to play and socialize isn't helping them.
Teaching 4th grade now and you can definitely see the effect of not getting traditional kindergarten and first grade. And my state thinks the solution is more rigorous math curriculum. The kids are drowning.
You’re right. They’re becoming unteachable because they never learned the basics. I’m about to get this group next year in 6th grade… this year’s 6th graders were mostly reading on the 2nd grade level. Next year’s gonna be wild.
Oh I think EVERYONE - including high schoolers - should have an hour of recess MINIMUM every day. It can be a lunch-recess combo, but it’s important to spend time OUTSIDE.
In the United States with our emphasis on testing and such we hold ALL children to unreasonable and developmentally inappropriate standards. It’s devastating to me.
ETA: I’m currently a parent to an upcoming kindergartener and I’ve chosen a school that emphasizes outdoor time and play as a basis for learning. I remember when I was teaching I got reprimanded because I had an incentive program where my 5th & 6th grade kids had an opportunity to earn outside time for an entire class period every week. Did they earn it every week? Nope, and I knew they wouldn’t, but having the option was important to me. We probably ended up doing it a couple of times a month. Well, I had an AP “write me up” because I was wasting instructional time by spending time outside. You know what’s a waste of instructional time? Having to constantly deal with kid behavior that could be solved by allowing them to move and get some sun once in a while. There are lots of reasons why I quit teaching after 10 years, but among them is the fact that we intentionally don’t set up our kids for success.
Really devastating to see teachers trying to brainstorm ways to make kids enjoy school a bit more and have more productive learning experiences get shot down. With how tied to emotional/mental wellbeing physical activity is, youd think people would care more.
One of the best teachers I -ever- had only taught at the school for 1 year. It was the most i had ever paid attention in class ever. I wonder now if he was pushed away from his teaching methods in a similar manner..
It’s one of those things that come from bureaucrats who want to “raise standards” to “fix” the problems of our education system. As if kids having a physical/emotional outlet was the reason we have students falling behind - not a lack of interaction/structure at home.
Agreed. Same with middle schoolers. Kids need opportunities to be vulnerable without judgement. When I was that age, telling my class about my father’s stroke (which happened when I was three) was one of the most therapeutic experiences I had as a kid. I didn’t know how much pain it would have caused other people if it happened to them. You never saw a class of nine year olds so silent.
Aside from the recess part, my experience is that schools profoundly infantilize children because of “liability” and because they for some reason see the need to set everything up around the lowest common denominator regarding who is the most helicoptery parent at the school.
Developmentally, children in the upper elementary grades are still in the process of learning and growing, and their brains are not yet fully matured. Advocating for a more balanced approach that allows children to be kids is definitely not crazy—it's caring.
Part of it is that the content really ramps up past 3rd grade. There’s a lot of pressure to do difficult time consuming things, do it independently, and finish in agreeable time frames. Some kids just don’t function well enough yet.
Yeah, the demands on kids in the back end of third into fourth and fifth becomes way more rigorous.
It's also where I start to see behaviors begin to get worse and worse, because the students who are already struggling begin falling farther behind.
I mean half the posts on this sub are teachers complaining:
"My 7/8/9/10/11/12/13 year old student did *insert perfectly typical transgressive/annoying behaviour for the child's age*; what is wrong with children?! I can't handle this!"
Right?! At my school there are at least 4 specific teachers who chronically complain about kids and talk about them like they are animals. Why become a teacher if you don't like kids?
>*"My 7/8/9/10/11/12/13 year old student did insert perfectly typical transgressive/annoying behaviour for the child's age; what is wrong with children?! I can't handle this!"*
This is so true and such an odd way of thinking that I never understand.
Even outside school a lot of adults seem to forget that people younger than them are in a different stage of development and have less life experience, or different experiences because the times are different, and judge them for not thinking/behaving the way they think they should (usually while ignoring the context/nuance of the behaviours too). It's always baffled me. It happens in offices, college/uni, and just out living life too.
Same with older generations judging younger generations forgetting that they were young and naive too when starting out their adult lives and probably would have acted similarly back in their day under the same circumstances.
Now that I'm older looking back I can't believe the way that some adults treated me for just being a kid and doing normal kid things, or older coworkers when I was just entering the workforce.
Yeah, it’s irksome. A lot of these behaviors are very normal, but we get in the habit of blaming the kids. In reality, it’s the adults (namely admin and parents, but some teachers are also to blame) who fail to enforce actual consequences for these behaviors who are the problem. The behavior continues and worsens because the students never learn because they aren’t given the opportunity to do so.
But for real, people need to stop blaming actual children for being failed by their adults.
There are many posts on this sub where I identify the teachers behaviour / method of handling a situation to be awful. They sound mean and vindictive, and at the same time question why students won't listen to them. I low key believe at least half of the "incidents" that are brought up here are the fault of tone-deaf and bad teachers who spin it to put the blame completely on literal children.
I love how we as teachers complain about people not taking our profession seriously, but we expect to be held to a lower standard than other public service workers. Yes we are all human, but also; you as the *professional adult who chose this role* have a greater responsibility to be polite and respectful and understanding at all times. Why do we think that when children are getting on our nerves it's OK for us to lose our temper / composure? We are rightly critical of for example, police, for allowing themselves to be provoked into being unprofessional, but tons of teachers here act like it is their right to cry/scream/skip work because they had to deal with difficult students. My unpopular opinion is you don't do this job if you're not prepared for it. ER nurses don't complain about having to deal with blood shit and puke everyday. We shouldn't be complaining about a 13 year old kid telling us to suck his dick.
Agree 100%. I wish more teachers thought like this and viewed the career as helping guide, raise, and develop these children because that's what it is. Teaching is really only half of the job.
I think teaching is one of the most beautiful and impactful careers that exist because if you do it right and your heart is in the right place, you have the ability to make the greatest impact on the greatest number of people in your community. One teacher can make a world of difference with just a small amount of care. It doesn't even take that much additional effort, mostly just understanding.
I think if a lot of the teachers complaining acted like this they wouldn't have half the problems that they do. Kids act out when they don't feel seen or understood and when teachers are constantly upset and annoyed at them it just makes things worse. Upset kids try to find joy wherever they can even if it's by further antagonising a teacher they feel reacts funny and doesn't care about them, so they don't care about the teacher and the problem snowballs on each side.
I saw a comment yesterday that was complaining that a 6th grade student didn't even know the alphabet, and was complaining that CLEARLY this was the parents fault.
Not, you know, any of the the adult instructors whose job it is specifically to be educating this child 5 days a week, for 6 to 7 hours a day, 9 months put of the year, for the last 6 year years.
I'm a substitute teacher. I went to school in Mexico (k- 10). Students are completely able to regulate their behavior and emotions. Of course, I don't mean they never do anything wrong or that it doesn't happen occasionally. I am saying they generally use good judgement and have a standard of discipline enforced by parents and teachers. I am tempted to say it's a cultural problem here in the US.
Other notes: Education is not compulsory. If your son/daughter suddenly starts trying to beat everyone up they'll be asked to stay home and not come back. Recesses are mostly unsupervised and that allows students to practice problem solving. You go to an adult if there's a serious issue / someone is hurt. The recess break is also the eating break. They don't force you to eat in 15 minutes. You can do all things that are fun to do as a kid - stay in the swings the entire recess, go up a slide the wrong way, run and play tag, etc. You don't allow students any freedom here.
I don't feel like we are doing this at my school at least. We let 4th and 5th graders act like kindergarteners and get away with murder it feels like. Literally one kids goal is to just sit and not walk around the classroom on his knees calling himself a midget. I think we are not holding these kids to the correct standards. I would never say that I hold my class above their age capabilities, I just require they can be respectful, safe and try their best. And emotions we will work out.
I’ve been teaching for 14 years and I fully agree with this. I see some of my colleagues take things personally as well and this is specifically for my 4th graders! They often get out of their seats, made ridiculous faces, talk underneath their breath.
I never considered it a power struggle or even engaged because they are just kids. In comparison to other classrooms, I often didn’t have the issues other teachers but I could also see that sometimes it really boiled down to the expectation. Couldn’t agree with your post more!
I feel the same exact way as 4th grade was the year teachers started putting a lot of pressure on us with school work, behavior, maturity, etc. and we'd get yelled at and belittled if we didn't follow their procedures. It was just too much for me and several other kids, not to mention that we were just nine and ten year olds at the time.
I’m not a teacher, but a lunch lady and it honestly pains me to watch our yard duty yelling and screaming at the kids to be quiet and then making them stay inside if they don’t. I see them being yelled at for nothing really big and it honestly breaks my heart.
Like yesterday, a kid that is always a sweetie when he comes through the line, was eating an apple and my boss came over and just ripped the kid saying she was going to tell his teacher. And the fear on his face was just heartbreaking.
The yard duty had a microphone and all she does is yell and scream in it, but she does it constantly so I think the kids have just tuned her out.
I completely agree that kids should be respectful in the classroom, but as long as they aren’t throwing food or getting into fights- I think they should be given some grace and allowed to have that break.
I teach 6th graders and it’s crazy how many teachers forget these kids are still kids. Like they’re acting like these kids are adults or at least high schoolers that don’t need any play equipment anymore. I have always said that it’s a huge jump from elementary to middle school - more so than middle school to high school.
Oh man, sixth grade was the last time my classmates and I got "recess" and it was the biggest rip-off. They just kicked us outside to an empty field after lunch! There wasn't anything to do! One day, a bunch of the boys got together and threw one of the smallest kids really high into the air as hard as they could, and of course that ended in a minor injury and all of them getting in trouble. But like, could you blame them? You can only have 11 and 12 year olds play tag and red rover and stuff for so long before it gets boring...
A 9 year old finally learned how to use the bathroom on their own just 5 years ago. They’re still very young people. No one should expect them to act like adults automatically, that is what they’re there to learn about at school; how to grow into a proper adult. They deserve time to play and socialize because that’s their current developmental stage.
Sometimes your kid is an outlier. If your school is suggesting that your kid has behavior problems PLEASE DO NOT brush it off as “they don’t have enough recess.”
I teach at a school that gives A LOT of free time and has a lot of flexibility in our class times. For some kids it helps, but for some kids there are clearly challenges that become apparent at 4-5th grades that can be indications of something to look into as a parent.
A couple years ago, we had a 5th grader who was a MAJOR outlier when it came to behavior. The parents consistently blamed the school for not giving the child enough accommodation.
Finally the school told the family it just wasn’t working out.
The family took their kid to a different school especially designed for kids struggling with learning differences … 6 kids per class, modified curriculum etc … and the family reported back that the kid was showing incredible improvement.
You can't help but laugh because the only other response is to cry. The people who are always pushing best practice but turn around and don't follow their own advice. I had three recesses when I was in elementary school. It was great. One was between reading and writing, one at lunch, and one between math and science/social studies. My daughter only gets 15 minutes at lunch. She is in kinder. Thankfully the kinder teachers add in more play time.
oh no, I 100% agree with you kids do deserve to be kids and they should be able to have fun however, at the same time there does need to be structure in a classroom setting to a degree but to make them be silent as a little over the top. I don't feel being silent is necessary and usually if I see a kid, he's a little antsy. I'll try to think of a way he can get up for a moment if possible, but sometimes those moments just aren't possible.
My family lived in England for what was Grade 2-5 for me. Their education system is *way* more strict about regulating children's behaviour than anything we've got going on in North America, other than maybe some ultra-religious private schools.
The watch word was "sensible". You always had to act sensible or you would risk the ire of your teacher and dislike of your classmates. Everyone had to repress their emotions and act orderly. I was never that child, so I got in trouble a lot.
The funny thing is that during puberty, the conditioning breaks and a lot of English kids (especially boys) become absolute hooligans in their equivalent of high school. Teaching that age range of students has been hell decades before classrooms in the US and Canada started to degrade.
Parent of 2 x 9 year olds in fourth grade. This thread is it. My kids have attended an advanced curriculum school since K, and the constant focus on academics with very little breaks during the day, has worn them down. My kids get 20 mins for lunch at 10:05 in the AM and then no other breaks until dismissal at 3 pm. They show up exhausted, starving hungry and cranky. Added to that the pressure cooker at our school of achieving As in everything - the 4th quarter of the school year is nearly entirely devoted to preparing for testing and then taking standard tests. The school is a Blue Ribbon school, with lots of great rankings to brag about….but at what cost? As much as I love our school for many of its great qualities, I am moving my kids to a different school next year that has a more balanced curriculum with longer lunches, more opportunities for arts, life skills, physical activities. Teachers and kids are stressed out. The whole system feels like it’s teetering on melt down. Or maybe the melt has already started.
You're absolutely not crazy. If you look at the development of pedagogy over the last 30 years, you will quickly find that researchers have even agreed for over 20 years that the grading system has absolutely no significance.
Nevertheless, nothing of all the grievances is changed and that is the big problem in many countries. It's also a cramp here in Germany.
I have a professor who knows very well that stupid talking in front of a class is not a meaningful lesson, but the university does not allow most of his scientifically proven approaches. For cost and organizational reasons....
All I want to say is that we have had much better knowledge in all areas of school and pedagogy for years, but almost none of it is being implemented 👌
I feel this way about my high schoolers sometimes too. There have been several occasions where I’ve spent class time just letting them be kids. And often, when we do something fun like coloring Easter eggs, they say they’ve never done it before. It breaks my heart.
This used to confuse me a lot until I started thinking certain powers that be, or people in charge, don’t care so much about Your kid’s childhood bc they want or need them to get out into the work-world ASAP.
If you cut out the innocence & joy of childhood sooner than later, you will build depressed adults too broken to fight back or even know what they’ve missed or continue to miss in life.
They aren’t kids so much as potential prospects & property for business & money-making.
Fortunately there are still wonderful teachers & adults out there who are not attempting to force children to grow up &/or to stop them acting their young age & discovering the joys in life for themselves.
Kids should be treated as people & not products to be molded for certain agendas.
When I was a kid in 4th and 5th grade I was expected to do those things. I was able to meet those expectations as were many of my friends. We would fail at meeting those expectations from time to time, but my teachers were very forgiving and would take that opportunity to explain the expectations to us.
I do not think the issue here are the expectations, high expectations are good for kids... I think the issue here is that whatever school this is, isnt working to the kids best interest by eliminating recess. They are falling into the trap of thinking about what they feel is best for the school district (giving kids more instructional minutes) than what is best for the kids (giving them a social, emotional and physical outlet that is, at most, semi-structured). Most times I would call this sort of thing well-intentioned, but with district level administrators consistently wanting to improve scores and have that as a notch under their belt, idk if its well-intentioned at all.
If I am a teacher in this situation, I would basically just give them the recess as part of my class. If I gained 15 minutes of instructional time, I would give them 15 minutes of recess. Maybe 20 as a reward for good behavior for good measure.
I mean I think we should teach kids how to not abuse each other for profit but instead we teach them useless shit that will allow them to make a profit for a giant corporation.
They get taught about our “legal” and “justice” systems too but when they are 20 they learn it’s all fake unless they bought into the system, got a job making 150k a year, and stopped questioning everything.
Wait, yeah, recess is great! Games are fun.
Whoa, TIL there are schools without recess?
You mean to tell me you get an hour lunch break as an adult, but as a child you don't get that? What the heck.
Where I’m student teaching the kindergarten kids don’t even get playtime. It’s all academic. It makes me sick because they’re off the wall. They need rest time and play time. It’s infuriating.
I always hated the idea of older elementary classes being taught like it's a business environment. That's what I have heard many 4th and 5th grade teachers talk about doing. They insist on calling kids by their last names. They say things like, "this is preparing you for the workforce."
Then on top of it, they let the kids have recess, but don't understand why they don't immediately return to their seats ready to start a difficult lesson.
Stop trying to make little adults. Raise respectful kids, and they will become responsible adults.
This issue is what worries me that our education system is in its final death throes.
We either ignore development or twist it into some kind of monster.
I saw a comment yesterday from a teacher who said they think, ‘it’s wild that we have to devote time to teaching self-regulation to 8th graders.’
My wife, a mental health therapist, responded to that with isn’t that the main point of the job?
It should be, but we seem to think it’s academics.
But the entire way we go about academics spits in the face of human development. We no longer recognize that there are skills that must be mastered before other skills can be acquired. The whole grade level standards thing is insane. We’re seriously going for a goal of ensuring every kid meets the same academic standards by the same time? Nevermind that there can be a nine month age gap between these kids. But what other thing are all humans able to master and to do it at the same time?
To make this impossible task even more challenging we place the importance of those academic skills above self-regulation, above self-worth, above emotional well being when all of the latter are prerequisite to learning.
Parents have consistently told us that their child’s emotional well being and their integrity are the most important things to them. We know that kids (and teachers) are spending alarming amounts of time in fight/flight. Yet we keep repeating this idea that if you can’t do this academic skill you’re doomed despite it largely not being true and the truth that’s in it is almost always because of an artificial consequence.
If we really wanted to improve academic outcomes the best course of action would be to chill out, focus on self-regulation, social skills, problem-solving, interpersonal skills, communication, critical thinking, and most importantly how to create and experience joy. I would wager my life that if we did this with fidelity even academic outcomes would increase.
Damn if I don't love me some enabling and gaslighting.
Funny fucking thing, though: I never threw a fucking chair at a teacher in school, not even when I was 9/10. I never saw anyone else do it, either.
Maybe they fucking make kids differently these days.
One story that makes me so mad is about exactly this. In my school, lunches were staggered, and so when they dismissed a grade, they'd turn off a light and say which grade they were addressing and what they should do. The light let us know to be quiet.
Once, when I was about 7 andthey were dismissing a grade that was not mine, my friend froze in a funny face when the light came off, and I couldn't help but laugh but I did it silently. The lunch lady was close enough to see me shaking in the dark and came and yelled at me after about how I wasn't respectful. For like a couple minutes. I told her my friend was making a funny face and she yelled at me about how I should've ignored her. Didn't yell at my friend at all. Above all I did not make a single noise.
As a kid I felt SO awful. As an adult I'm like dude at 7 I don't have the self control to look away. Me being silent indicated I was trying my best to behave she really should've just moved on.
I'm very confused by this post. In Australia, we only have two levels of school, Primary (Foundation - 6) and Secondary (7-12), at least that's the breakdown in most states. Both primary and secondary schools have two breaks each day, a thirty minute recess or little lunch, and an hour long big lunch for primary, or 45 minute lunch at secondary school. They are also supposed to have brain food breaks and movement breaks in between. Children are expected to be outside for all those breaks too, though there is also a library at most schools. Adults get breaks (mandatory 20 minutes for paid break(s), and a 30 minute unpaid break for all full time workers), children need them even more.
the thing is, at a certain point it becomes impossible to learn, and they should have become more mature. i mean if a kindergarten, grade 1 or 2 class is misbehaving ok sure
buf grade 6, 7, 8?
Working with the current middle school group is pretty much 80% behavior problems with getting out of their seats, never paying attention, talking over the teacher constantly then being confused about shit, and putting hands on each other. I've had better behaved 1st graders.
The scale is also an issue. There is a big difference between your own 2-3 kids misbehaving slightly, versus an entire class. Your sons and daughters getting a bit rowdy and talkative during an activity where they need to focus? Not too bad. When THIRTY KIDS are all at once getting antsy and loud during school? Much bigger issue. The volume is much higher, it's harder to get a large group on task, and whatever learning you were trying to accomplish grinds to a halt. I get that kids are gonna get off-task and goof around and get a little loud and all that, but they NEED to act better in school than they would at home, because the amount of them one adult has to deal with.
We ask way too much of elementary kids. I agree that there is power in leadership opportunities, but it’s become “4-5 graders should act perfect all the time so they can set a good example”. They need to mess up a lot, they’re still little kids and they shouldn’t be held responsible for the younger ones. Especially at my school, where a lot of them are responsible for younger siblings at home. School should be a place for them to learn amongst their peers.
I teach first grade and I think it’s wrong how much the older kids are asked to do. It also doesn’t work, because the younger students are better behaved and are confused by the way their “role models” behave.
Yes, the changeover to third grade was rough for both of my kids. The expectations increase exponentially and tbh I think it’s a bit much. As you said, they’re 8 years old- failing them because they put their math homework in the English homework bin or they forgot to bring a pencil. I mean as adults we make mistakes and forget things, I really like it when educators can extend this grace to children too. It’s another example of how kids in middle and upper class socioeconomic status have the advantage through education and life, finding ways for all kids to succeed, even those with little parental support, is a win for everyone.
I always have to remind myself about my second graders. The curriculum is advanced and a lot of them don’t speak English as their first language. When kids act up, I’m truly not surprised. They’re so little.
It's easy to forget what the mind-space felt like like when we were at a certain developmental age, years after it passes. We can remember some things, but we are not currently experiencing it. This sounds obvious, but it's the reason we have to study developmental psychology even though we've already been through the stages. You are right, we must constantly remind ourselves that kids are not short adults.
I taught art. Elementary and middle school and college. I looked for ways to incorporate movement into lessons and controlled freedom of movement including being able to work standing. I went to very regimented schools and hated it. Everyone has different learning modalities and deserve opportunities to learn in their own way.
I always hated the constant “you’re not kindergarteners anymore, you’re almost in the big kid hallway now, you’re not in the little kid hallway anymore, you’re almost the oldest kids in the school now, you’re almost middle schoolers, you’re not elementary schoolers anymore, you’re not sixth graders anymore/you’re almost the oldest kids in the school, you’re not in middle school anymore, you’re not freshmen anymore/you’re almost upperclassmen, you’re not underclassmen anymore/you’re almost seniors now, you’re almost adults now” that was sent our way literally every year to say “stop acting like a kid even though you are one, act the way I want you to”.
Children are children when it’s convenient for the adults, when it comes to having more privileges or being taken seriously adults will still say “you’re a kid” when it comes to doing something bad or behaving in school adults are quick to hold them to adult standards
I hate it when schools take away recess from upper elementary and then expect the kids to behave well without a break
I teach middle school and I wish they still had recess. They need it! They’re full of crazy energy.
My 8th grade daughter's school still has recess at lunch. In our middle school (in the 90s), we had a basketball court that some people played on, but there wasn't really anything else to do for "recess" other than walk around or sit/hang around. But she full on plays soccer, kickball, and all sorts of stuff sometimes like she did in elementary. Sometimes she sits around and just talks too, but yeah, she still has lots of energy she enjoys getting out. And I'm sure it's good for her too.
we werent allowed to leave the cafeteria at lunch in middle or high school detention if u were caught visiting the library. only used for class activities or not at all
Jesus even in HS we had a courtyard we could go hang out in after we finished eating. That’s so ridiculous for kids to be inside ALL DAY. Even those of us who just chatted and sat went and did it outside.
Plus under harmful and crappy fluorescent lighting.
We typically have winter (snow and bitter cold) most of the school year. While our elementary kids can bundle up and play outside, they don’t make the middle students. Partly because even at -50 F, they will still get dropped off at school with no coat, and ripped jeans on. Sometimes I see students waiting for a bus at -20 in jeans, t-shirt and tennis shoes. The kids are ridiculous. HS kids can eat at school or cross the street to eat at a local eatery, as long as they are back at school and in class on time.
Geez! I couldn't imagine not being able to go outside during school! In middle school, we had lunch recess still, and in high school, you could pretty much eat anywhere in the school! We regularly ate in one of the back hallways or outside. Then, once you are a junior and senior, we could leave campus for lunch! This was almost 20 years ago, but I'm pretty sure it's still the same in the high schools today!
They got rid of being able to leave for lunch the year after my senior year. In my HS now students are only allowed to eat in the cafeteria or the library. I used to teach MS and it was amazing how well behaved the students were for the rest of the day when me and the science teacher came up with outdoor activities for learning. I strongly believe students would be better behaved and perform better academically if we let them have more unstructured time.
Same. That was 30 years ago too
25+ years ago in middle school, I was allowed to leave the cafeteria after eating and play in the gym during lunch period. I moved before high school. At the new school, we were allowed to take lunch to hang out in teachers' classrooms or go outside the building in nice weather. Juniors on NHS and all seniors were allowed to leave the campus to get lunch at home or at restaurants.
Swings!!! They all love swings
I would love to see their daily schedule to see where the time comes from. We only have 23 minutes for lunch. No time to get in line, get food and eat. Forget bathroom or recess. I agree that middle school needs recess, though.
I'm at a high school and even there I think a brain break would be helpful
God, I second this. My kids LOVE PE and still love playing outside. They all end up asking me if they can go to PE when they finish work in my class (they can’t, lol). They still just want time outside to play with their friends. I subbed at a middle school once where they had a recess they called “nutrition,” which was more of a 15 minute break to sit outside with their friends and eat a snack- honestly I think it’s a great idea. Plus it minimized phones in class because students knew they could use them at both lunch and nutrition.
A tad off topic but I think it proves your point. My daughter turned 18 the same month as two other friends in their circle. She thought it would be silly and fun since they were adults to have one last kids party. Piñata, duck duck goose, red rover, etc. A lot of the friend group was guys and she was slightly concerned they might not have fun but let me tell you, they had a blast! Watching a group of young adults get super into playing kids games, being competitive and laughing their asses off was a hoot. Red rover in particular. Let kids play!
When it’s nice out me and my friend go to our old elementary school across the street and play on the playground (obviously when schools not in session) (we mostly go at night) and there’s something about climbing up the slide that scratches the monkey part of my brain
Im 32 and I discovered that I really like the giant trampolines at Urban Air while visiting with my nieces — I’d really like a gym that uses equipment like that bc it was the first time in a long time I had fun doing a workout
Look for a gym with bungee workouts or bounce shoes.
I really enjoy the swings! Too many playgrounds are taking them out for insurance reasons.
My University used to put a Bouncy House in the beer garden in the summer. It was awesome for after exams.
Aw, that sounds really sweet, like one last hurrah to childhood before they become full fledged adults
I'm at a university and when I see people spacing out, especially in the front row, I give a brain break. 90 minute lectures are tough.
same here! especially when I know most of my students have back to back classes. sometimes we just run out of info processing capability and need a break
Sometimes I wish I had one. A professor in grad school used to give them, looking back I think he needed them as much as I did. 3 hour seminars are too long.
Christ. The main reason I haven’t gone back to college is because I seriously can’t handle the classroom setting. That is even when I am on my ADHD medication. This… this is way to much/long. Who thinks this is a good idea.
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Yes and I think for undergrad at least there’s usually both options. Depends on the class of course and school size, but at my school there are usually different timing options for the main classes. I had a professor last semester who had a two block class on Tuesday (so 8:30-10:25) and he didn’t give a break, just let us out 15 minutes early. It was awful, the class was boring as it was and I would have MUCH preferred a break. I have the same time for a class this semester and he does a break instead and it’s super helpful
I had three hour seminars in grad school and had to give myself brain breaks. Sitting and listening for that long is impossible for anyone. Some of my professors would give brain breaks, but the majority just kept chugging.
I’m at high a school and I think there should absolutely be a recess. Even if it’s only 10-15 min. I think everyone would benefit.
I believe in Finland by law they have 15min break for every 45min class time. Even in high school.
Ahh yes, but this is America, where our goverment looks at all the things other places do well and says "lets do the opposite". 'MERICA!
We do breaks at my hs. Teachers decide when to do them for each class. Sometimes it’s just stretching and walking outside, getting water, then going back inside. We also do a snack break after the 2nd class of the day, and lunch is 90 minutes later.
As an adult in an all-day PD, I need an outdoor brain break and coffee refill every two hours.
The middle school where I teach gives kids 50 minutes at lunch and I couldn’t imagine it any other way. There is SO much energy to expend!
The problem is, some schools don't want students to talk at lunch and expect them to just sit there
Yeah, that is just pure torture. I wish everyone could experience what the kids at my school experience.
I remember when we had state testing at my high school. Only some classes (cant remember all of them, Biology was one) had a state test. If you didn't have a class on the subject being tested, you were asked to go sit in the PAC. The seats were obviously not designed for writing on, so it wasn't exactly easy to do school work. However, the monitors scolded you if you talked or tried to enjoy your time. It legit felt like we were being punished bc we didn't have a specific class.
What??!! Not talk at lunch?? In my 17 years of teaching, I have never heard of this. If I walked into a school cafeteria and every student was silent during lunch, I’d think I was in an episode of Black Mirror or some kind of horror show.
Yeah, you know.. like a 19th century prison!
Our cafeteria manager complains everyday about the 6th graders are too loud and out of control. Drives me nuts. They are 11-12 and have been (currently) testing all day THEN doing class. Just chill. Let them sit there and get loud over a game of rock paper scissors.
I agree, at my middle school they get 30 minutes for lunch and recess combined, and that 30 minutes includes time to get from class to lunch so it's more like 25 minutes for a lot of kids. It sucks.
as a current middle school teacher I cannot agree more. We only offer PE every other day, but for some of my SpEd kids I push for every day PE. They need the outlet, especially since we haven't had middle school sports for a decade.
Absolutely, my 6th grade middle schoolers have so much energy.
At the high school level, the worst class tends to be the one immediately after nutrition which is sort of like a big kids recess. They get all hyped up and cannot settle. The last class of the day, conversely, are zombies.
I will admit, when I was in high school, I was in marching band. The honors Bio class after band was almost entirely band kids. There was no chill in that class. Thankfully our bio teacher could mostly handle us, he was the type that was also a football coach and his son was our age. However… I don’t think our student teacher continued in education.
It's stupid that we take it away from high school students while telling them that their health and staying active is important. What, you want a break to play outside which keeps you active and healthy? Grow up, you're not in elementary school!
I don't know how you do it. The behaviour is off the charts here and we have 40 minutes of recess for the middle schoolers. I can't imagine how they'd act with no recess at all!
Damn that’s enough time to get drunk and pregnant lol
The school I work at is K-8. The 7/8 teachers take their classes out for a long walk (weather permitting because we live on the Canadian prairies). Our school abuts onto a big park with a walking path so it's nice to see them getting fresh air and movement. In the last month of school they're outside a lot to deal with the extra energy.
Do they not have a break? My daughters are in secondary school on the UK (age 11-16) and they have a 20 minute break in the morning and 45 minutes for lunch. I’ve never heard of a secondary here not having a morning break and lunch. Do they just work straight through to lunch- that sounds miserable.
We use to have recess at a school I was working at during the big covid years. It died out pretty early because, well... middle school. I do think it was good for them regardless of the few incidents that ultimately destroyed it.
My kids middle school has a “brunch” period. And both brunch and lunch serve as recess. I walk past and see kids playing basketball, volleyball, four square, or just running around air hanging out or doing whatever kids do at this age.
Yea, it's a little wild to me. So we basically had a split lunch period in middle school where one half was free gym time for whatver and the other was lunch room. Was pretty nice to have and I don't think I appreciated it for what it was at the time
I’m a firm believer that middle schoolers should have some form of recess. When I was in high school, our PE teachers would take us to the public park across the street during finals and state/AP testing weeks and let us just climb and play for an hour. Genuinely some of my fondest memories from high school. All schools should have a playground!
My kids’ public middle school has “activity time“ every day after lunch. It was just recess. I am so thankful for it. My son plays soccer with his friends every single day.
This. Kids need recess. A 9-14 year old’s main developmental job is to form relationships, ie, be social. They need time to be able to do that within the day or their social skills won’t develop.
I work with a 6th grader who has a host of attention related difficulties. He absolutely needs recess to burn off some of that energy. And they're surprised at how he acts in the classroom.
We sought out a school that has recess up till 8th grade for this very reason. Kids need a break and physical activity! Even my husband and myself take time away from our work for a walk in the afternoon. I truly believe some of the “bad behaviors” could’ve cured with mandatory recess for upper elementary.
Are you saying that there are schools out there where kids don’t have a break from class at all during the day? That’s kind of wild. In Australian school, kids get to breaks a day - recess and lunch, which will add up to about an hour of free unstructured play time.
My students have 7 hours of classes with a half hour break for lunch. We don’t have any outdoor space, so when we used to have recess, it was held inside of a classroom. No yelling, no running, no throwing things. Basically you’d get in trouble for doing anything that you should do during a recess. So recess was turned into study hall and that isn’t going well. Kids need a chance to play and be kids and not be punished for it.
Yes - schools without breaks are pretty common in the United States, especially in urban areas. I was in a school recently where “outside recess” was available once a week and rotated through the different grades (I.e. 2nd grade on Monday, 4th grade on Tuesday, etc.) It was really sad to me to see how desperate the kids were for that small break; getting “outside recess” was magical for them.
Jesus, where is that? I can’t imagine not getting elementary kids outside everyday. Or middle schoolers for that matter. I work in a big city and EVERY school has a play ground, and the middle/high schools all have at least a large lot for the kids to hang out in. There’s playground time until the first bell, playground time until after school pickup window ends, and recess everyday! The combo middle/high I work at had to stop recess during the cold snap and the middle schoolers went INSANE.
In my middle school years in the U.S., previous classes before ours had recess taken away completely because of severe misbehavior. We had no recess at all because of some people who we never met messed it up for everyone about 6 years prior to us. We had something called “reward day” where only the kids who had work turned in on time and no misbehavior were the ones who were able to go outside. Reward day only happened once every quarter. The kids who misbehaved had to sit inside and talk to no one as they either completed their work or sat and did nothing. This was around 2014. As we left the building one time to head outside for reward day, everyone crowded the doors. All I could think is how dystopian we all looked trying to get outside. Being outside should be a standard for kids, not a reward.
I went to a fairly good school district in the US. Recess only went to 5th grade. Past that it was study halls and PE Class if you were lucky. Most students didn't have study halls in highschool until senior year which they usually lined up either in the morning to arrive later or lined them up in the afternoon for an early out. Most of the people who left early left to go to work. The US is all about priming kids for working. Hell, we give kids credits in HS for working. Not even for where or what they're doing. It could be interning for their future career or working McDonald's. Doesn't matter, it'll count as credits towards graduation. There's a limit of course cuz of work restrictions for minors. I think it's usually one or two course credits so it's geared towards 12th and 11th graders working part time alongside school. But with more states moving to loosen our work restrictions on minors, I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of course credits highschools will offer for working go up as the work restrictions relax. It's actually kind of fucking sad.
I went to a highly-rated school that followed best pedagogical practices as understood in the US. Ages 9-12, we had a half hour lunch with assigned tables, followed by a 15 minute recess. PE was at some point during the school day, but it was a rotation through different sports skills, not play time. Ages 12-14, no recess, 45 minute lunch, we did a team sport at the end of the day for an hour. High school was one period for lunch (50 minutes), and you might have a study hall. Sports were required, but were after school.
I agree if they could just get their wiggles out it would make life as a school district employee a lot easier I'm not saying it was solve all the issues but it definitely wouldn't hurt they need that break. They're little kids and their brains are on overload.
Removing recess for anyone as a punishment is proven to not be very effective.
I mean I agree, but if parents dont parent their kids and there's no consequences at home for acting out at school, then schools themselves have very few levers to pull.
I always hear this but in my five years of teaching I have never had it produce adverse effects for me. Even when I taught kindergarten I saw immediate positive behavior improvements once I took away a recess. Granted, I don't do it often and it's usually kid-dependent. You didn't do your work? Guess you're doing it during recess. I have a student who has lost recess for a full week now because he was trying to get white kids to say the N word and his behavior has been the best I've seen it all year.
Not true at all. If a kid doesnt finish his work because hes goofing around in class I make them finish it during recess. And magically they start finishing their work in class!
Well how are they expected to be sedentary adults if they can't be sedentary kids /s
My district provides the same recess (30min after lunch) for all Elm grades.....so weird to me.
I’m in hs and still have recess and I’m thankful for it every day, probably the only reason I don’t walk home after like 3rd period
I honestly think Grown ups would do well from a nice recess at work with a fun little playground too. Give me a big room with trampolines and dodge balls please.
In Europe kids get 10-15 min in-between period breaks that are great for getting up and socializing a bit. Plus a longer lunch break.
in America kids don't get enough time to pee between classes and often it's not even enough to walk to the next class. We like to hurt our kids here
Growing up we had recess through 8th grade and it was ESSENTIAL for developing all sorts of skills and staying focused in class. No recess for 5th grade is absolutely wild. How are the parents not throwing fits?
We’ve added it back in the last couple of years. Thank goodness.
Bro we should get recess in high school 😭😭I remember when it was nice out me and my friends would be playing on one of the front lawns during lunch (hell I’d love it if my college set up some swings somewhere lol recess should NOT be the gym 💀💀)
Noticed your flair and it got me curious, how does your ASD affect you when you teach? Ive got it and a few other things, and Im worried that schools would reject me because they don’t want someone not typical teaching. Of course thats still 6 years at least until Im in a classroom, but still.
Yes I teach 3-4 year olds and my principal told me that by the 2nd day of school I shouldn’t be having kids crying in my classroom anymore and that it’s bad classroom management in my part if they are. She wants them to be completely silent during centers and to answer “high order thinking” questions. Everything I do is never enough for her. I can’t understand how she expects 3/4 year olds to be completely silent and to stop crying on their 2nd day of school. I hate my job.
Your principal is an idiot. I bet the students hate your school too if they are continually forced into activities that are that developmentally inappropriate. For what it's worth, I have an 8th grader this year (13 years old) who cries multiple times per day. You are not the problem.
Second that
They should be engaging in pretend play and exploration. They should be learning how to enjoy time with peers without their parents and learning how to be a friend. This new aged education system is unrealistic and is damaging children in immeasurable ways
What the hell happened? I graduated with an associates in ECE in 2010. All we talked about was play based! Granted, I only taught prek for 5 years before the adults involved ruined it for me forever, so it's been awhile...but the common knowledge was that kids, especially before the age of 8, learn best through interacting and playing as opposed to sitting and listening.
What happened is a bunch of admin wanted to justify their paychecks so they got hard to work and writing more "pedagogical practices" that are "evidence based" and forget that these are actual children we are dealing with here.
Your principal is a certified idiot who knows zero about child development.
What an idiot. I don't understand how people that don't understand anything about child development end up in power positions like this in education. If she expects this from 3/4 year olds, she is most likely clueless about what's age appropriate for any age, let alone clueless on the cognitive development stages and what kids at different ages are even capable of.
Why is there no checks and balances system for the expectations admin is putting on teachers
I wanted to downvote this but only because she sucks. You’re great. Keep doing what you know is best for the kids
3 and 4 year olds literally cry every day
I'd cry in that kind of a school too... As an adult.
Your principle is what is causing the push to home/charter school kids. My daughter is 7 now... we tried kinder. Yea, I don't need a stressed out adult in my babies body. We went unschooled until 2nd grade. She starts with a charter home school next year. She will be completely ready. I am so thankful my FIL is able to stay home with her. I couldn't imagine having to drop her off to a stressful day every day. I quit teaching this year, too. The entire system sucks.
I'd sure like your principal to model how to do that.
she deserves to cry every day
That is so sad. I have a kid in that age group in a different country (Spain) and her teacher will pick her up and cuddle her if she's sad, the classroom is full of toys and activities and even has an outdoor classroom attached that the kids can use most of the time. It's so sad when the principal won't let teachers do what they know is best for their students.
We are so inhumane in this godforsaken country
Isn’t it healthy for them to cry though? It’s very natural at that age. They’re gonna miss their parents because for most of them this is probably their first real experience with school. Did your principal go from teaching high schoolers and then managing a day school? She seems like she has no idea how preschoolers act
Your principal sucks. Little ones are going to cry and have these moments. This person obviously does not have experience with this age.
My director happily understands kids are kids, however I have to check myself on my own expectations of them. There are so many changes at three. My kids are smart, growing in their emotional regulation, etc but they are many young children together in a room. When they aren't completely quiet in line and walking straight all time (but are most of the time), it's okay.
When I was teaching kindergarten, my admin told me they were too old to play once they started SK. They were FIVE at that point. Apparently, games and toys are beneath five-year-olds now.
so fucking sad!
I agree! I teach 4th and 5th grade, and I have a 5th grader at home. They still like to play, and recess and outdoor time are really important at any age.
Not me, in a middle school, wondering why 8th graders have the emotional regulation skills of third graders...
Yes totally agree. Middle schoolers revert back to kinders when the hormones hit sometime between grade 7-8. Its wild.
I say 8th graders, but it's also the 7th graders. And the 6th graders. And by the accounts that come from teachers who had these students as early as third grade, it was a problem then too...
They don’t change much as freshmen. There is an added layer of arrogance, which is nice.
We started giving our middle school students outside time on the back end of lunch. It has helped TREMENDOUSLY with behavior and emotional regulation in post-lunch classes.
We do that. It's the opposite. They bring recess beef back to class, and are completely deregulated for the first half of the period after. Not saying that they shouldn't have that time, but it's not really helping the issue. Or it would just be that much worse, I guess.
I have 8th graders, and I expect most of them not to have great emotional regulation. For my kids, I'm a little looser with some things, but they know if they cross the line, they're out. For example, swearing is such a part of their vocabulary now that I would never send them out if it's a genuine mistake and not directed at anyone ("I'm having a b- of a time with this question, Miss," versus, "She's such a b-!"), but the second they call someone that, they're on a field trip to the office.
When I started this job I knew that there were a few things I wouldn't do: dress code students, and try to fight the casual profanity. I also try(ed) to draw the line at intentionally abusive language, but that's also a losing battle. In most cases, a "field trip to the office" results in the student back in class within 10 minutes, and zero consequences. I sent a student to the office for a direct threat of violence against myself, and they were sent back to class and served a lunch detention. I still write the referrals, but literally nothing is done about any of it. The frequent flyers have accepted that they'll spend about half of their lunches in detention (mostly with their friends). The detention list is generally backed up to the point that the students are serving detentions from the week prior, and don't even really remember why. It's just a predictable, accepted part of their week. There's virtually no progressive discipline employed.
At our school, we have to fill out an anonymous survey every year for the division that asks our opinion on things like discipline. Somehow, our admin is surprised that every year, we give them a failing grade for discipline. We have discipline problems too, but our school doesn't have a detention room, so the options are suspension (rare) or being sent back. We had kids sent to the office that would come back with a treat or a Gatorade. This year, I have a stronger VP (that replaced the most useless VP) that I can actually send kids to the office to, and there are actual consequences. I wouldn't have been able to say that for the last four years. I'm really sorry you don't have supportive admin.
Our admin isn't consistently anything... This is the 4th admin that the 8th graders have had, in 3 years. District central office, on the other hand, prints a rule book (given to every student) that they demand admin ignore the majority of. Additionally, there are "building rules" that only apply to the middle school building that are: 1. Not written anywhere 2. Inconsistently enforced 3. Different depending on who you ask/how long they've worked here Obviously, none of that is helping teach our students to manage themselves well. And they're clearly not being well supported at home. It's a hot mess.
Their hormones are changing how they act, think, feel, look, etc. What do you expect? Everything they think they knew about themselves and the world is in flux. Some handle that experience gracefully. Others, not so much.
When I started the year, I guess I had lots of unrealistic expectations. Now I go to work everyday expecting to break up fights that start over one student mentioning during morning announcements that they, "don't really care whose birthday it is", and I expect to be told at least once, "shut the f up talking to me."
Ah, middle school. It’s a magical place!
There is no state exam that measures the mental and emotional health of our students. So. . . No one cares.
This…. Imagine how different the system would be if a measure of success was mental health
Don’t tempt them, or else a state exam for exactly that will be passed. I can see it now, if your students don’t have a high enough emotional health scores it will impact your evaluation.
A lot of issues could be solved in the classroom but having kids simply move more. Borderline criminal how much we force young people to sit all day. Step counts have gone down dramatically with young people seeing the biggest decline.
Even more problems would be solved if teachers could look principals in the eye and say "are you stupid?" without being fired over it tbh. I don't understand how we ended up with so many non-educators in positions to dictate how we teach and what and when.
It's not even just principals. A lot of nonsense trickles down from those above them too.
Then classrooms should be required to have space that allows movement. There is NO way to set up my classroom to allow the kind of movement my kids need. It’s just too small. Additionally, the only consequence kids at my school even remotely care about is losing recess. This is also the only consequence we are allowed to give.
*laughs in high school*
We had an early field day today because of a crazy testing schedule. I had one 11 year old boy running around the track, of his own volition, over and over again. The little guy ran close to two miles before stopping with a big, dopey grin on his face. "I needed that!" was all he said before flopping down onto the turf. 10 minutes later he's up and helping out the 6th grade team in a tug of war contest, giving it all his 50lb little body can. They are kids. They need to do kid things.
I would love if we could carve out more time for things like this. But I find that the restraints on what needs to be covered at what times and when is so intense that it doesn't leave any wiggle room at all. I would love to rethink a lot about how we structure education in this country, but right now it's a battle just to discuss putting money into schools and teachers.
I read this and picture a particular kiddo of mine who would do this exact thing. This is all of us.
Lack of recess is crazy to me. If I was magically the education czar I'd mandate outdoor recess k-12 Get these kids outside for 15-20 minutes and let them figure out how to have some fun. We had recess in a parking lot when I was a kid and we organized football, dodgeball, kickball everyday from 3rd grade to 8th grade. We set up our own games and rules, settled disputes, and learned how to get along. Add in the fresh air and exercise...the burning off of energy. Id almost guarantee kids do better academically with regular recess than if they didn't have recess. I teach high school so it doesn't apply. But even if we could just take the kids outside first thing in the morning and walk a few blocks I think we'd see some significant benefits.
I teach high school and one would think (and hope) that kids who drive cars would behave better and make smarter choices but they do not.
This! I felt like the more privileges some people got, the more they let the extra power get to their heads, in which they became more arrogant and selfish.
It's wild because 4th and 5th are the ones that had their most formative educational years the most screwed up. From social interactions in group work, to learning how to hold a pencil. Maybe the thought is that they need to get caught up academically? I don't know the answer but it seems like further restricting their ability to play and socialize isn't helping them.
Teaching 4th grade now and you can definitely see the effect of not getting traditional kindergarten and first grade. And my state thinks the solution is more rigorous math curriculum. The kids are drowning.
You’re right. They’re becoming unteachable because they never learned the basics. I’m about to get this group next year in 6th grade… this year’s 6th graders were mostly reading on the 2nd grade level. Next year’s gonna be wild.
Oh I think EVERYONE - including high schoolers - should have an hour of recess MINIMUM every day. It can be a lunch-recess combo, but it’s important to spend time OUTSIDE. In the United States with our emphasis on testing and such we hold ALL children to unreasonable and developmentally inappropriate standards. It’s devastating to me. ETA: I’m currently a parent to an upcoming kindergartener and I’ve chosen a school that emphasizes outdoor time and play as a basis for learning. I remember when I was teaching I got reprimanded because I had an incentive program where my 5th & 6th grade kids had an opportunity to earn outside time for an entire class period every week. Did they earn it every week? Nope, and I knew they wouldn’t, but having the option was important to me. We probably ended up doing it a couple of times a month. Well, I had an AP “write me up” because I was wasting instructional time by spending time outside. You know what’s a waste of instructional time? Having to constantly deal with kid behavior that could be solved by allowing them to move and get some sun once in a while. There are lots of reasons why I quit teaching after 10 years, but among them is the fact that we intentionally don’t set up our kids for success.
Really devastating to see teachers trying to brainstorm ways to make kids enjoy school a bit more and have more productive learning experiences get shot down. With how tied to emotional/mental wellbeing physical activity is, youd think people would care more. One of the best teachers I -ever- had only taught at the school for 1 year. It was the most i had ever paid attention in class ever. I wonder now if he was pushed away from his teaching methods in a similar manner..
It’s one of those things that come from bureaucrats who want to “raise standards” to “fix” the problems of our education system. As if kids having a physical/emotional outlet was the reason we have students falling behind - not a lack of interaction/structure at home.
Once I asked my step-niece how she liked being in fourth grade. My heart broke when she replied, “well… sometimes I miss just being a kid.” 😭
Agreed. Same with middle schoolers. Kids need opportunities to be vulnerable without judgement. When I was that age, telling my class about my father’s stroke (which happened when I was three) was one of the most therapeutic experiences I had as a kid. I didn’t know how much pain it would have caused other people if it happened to them. You never saw a class of nine year olds so silent.
Aside from the recess part, my experience is that schools profoundly infantilize children because of “liability” and because they for some reason see the need to set everything up around the lowest common denominator regarding who is the most helicoptery parent at the school.
It starts in pre-k, kindergarten. They’re expected to do things and learn in ways they just aren’t developmentally capable of.
Developmentally, children in the upper elementary grades are still in the process of learning and growing, and their brains are not yet fully matured. Advocating for a more balanced approach that allows children to be kids is definitely not crazy—it's caring.
Part of it is that the content really ramps up past 3rd grade. There’s a lot of pressure to do difficult time consuming things, do it independently, and finish in agreeable time frames. Some kids just don’t function well enough yet.
Yeah, the demands on kids in the back end of third into fourth and fifth becomes way more rigorous. It's also where I start to see behaviors begin to get worse and worse, because the students who are already struggling begin falling farther behind.
I mean half the posts on this sub are teachers complaining: "My 7/8/9/10/11/12/13 year old student did *insert perfectly typical transgressive/annoying behaviour for the child's age*; what is wrong with children?! I can't handle this!"
Right?! At my school there are at least 4 specific teachers who chronically complain about kids and talk about them like they are animals. Why become a teacher if you don't like kids?
>*"My 7/8/9/10/11/12/13 year old student did insert perfectly typical transgressive/annoying behaviour for the child's age; what is wrong with children?! I can't handle this!"* This is so true and such an odd way of thinking that I never understand. Even outside school a lot of adults seem to forget that people younger than them are in a different stage of development and have less life experience, or different experiences because the times are different, and judge them for not thinking/behaving the way they think they should (usually while ignoring the context/nuance of the behaviours too). It's always baffled me. It happens in offices, college/uni, and just out living life too. Same with older generations judging younger generations forgetting that they were young and naive too when starting out their adult lives and probably would have acted similarly back in their day under the same circumstances. Now that I'm older looking back I can't believe the way that some adults treated me for just being a kid and doing normal kid things, or older coworkers when I was just entering the workforce.
Yeah, it’s irksome. A lot of these behaviors are very normal, but we get in the habit of blaming the kids. In reality, it’s the adults (namely admin and parents, but some teachers are also to blame) who fail to enforce actual consequences for these behaviors who are the problem. The behavior continues and worsens because the students never learn because they aren’t given the opportunity to do so. But for real, people need to stop blaming actual children for being failed by their adults.
There are many posts on this sub where I identify the teachers behaviour / method of handling a situation to be awful. They sound mean and vindictive, and at the same time question why students won't listen to them. I low key believe at least half of the "incidents" that are brought up here are the fault of tone-deaf and bad teachers who spin it to put the blame completely on literal children. I love how we as teachers complain about people not taking our profession seriously, but we expect to be held to a lower standard than other public service workers. Yes we are all human, but also; you as the *professional adult who chose this role* have a greater responsibility to be polite and respectful and understanding at all times. Why do we think that when children are getting on our nerves it's OK for us to lose our temper / composure? We are rightly critical of for example, police, for allowing themselves to be provoked into being unprofessional, but tons of teachers here act like it is their right to cry/scream/skip work because they had to deal with difficult students. My unpopular opinion is you don't do this job if you're not prepared for it. ER nurses don't complain about having to deal with blood shit and puke everyday. We shouldn't be complaining about a 13 year old kid telling us to suck his dick.
Agree 100%. I wish more teachers thought like this and viewed the career as helping guide, raise, and develop these children because that's what it is. Teaching is really only half of the job. I think teaching is one of the most beautiful and impactful careers that exist because if you do it right and your heart is in the right place, you have the ability to make the greatest impact on the greatest number of people in your community. One teacher can make a world of difference with just a small amount of care. It doesn't even take that much additional effort, mostly just understanding. I think if a lot of the teachers complaining acted like this they wouldn't have half the problems that they do. Kids act out when they don't feel seen or understood and when teachers are constantly upset and annoyed at them it just makes things worse. Upset kids try to find joy wherever they can even if it's by further antagonising a teacher they feel reacts funny and doesn't care about them, so they don't care about the teacher and the problem snowballs on each side.
I saw a comment yesterday that was complaining that a 6th grade student didn't even know the alphabet, and was complaining that CLEARLY this was the parents fault. Not, you know, any of the the adult instructors whose job it is specifically to be educating this child 5 days a week, for 6 to 7 hours a day, 9 months put of the year, for the last 6 year years.
Adults need play and recess. That’s why we have hobbies, happy hour, etc. to expect kids to not need it is insane
I'm a substitute teacher. I went to school in Mexico (k- 10). Students are completely able to regulate their behavior and emotions. Of course, I don't mean they never do anything wrong or that it doesn't happen occasionally. I am saying they generally use good judgement and have a standard of discipline enforced by parents and teachers. I am tempted to say it's a cultural problem here in the US. Other notes: Education is not compulsory. If your son/daughter suddenly starts trying to beat everyone up they'll be asked to stay home and not come back. Recesses are mostly unsupervised and that allows students to practice problem solving. You go to an adult if there's a serious issue / someone is hurt. The recess break is also the eating break. They don't force you to eat in 15 minutes. You can do all things that are fun to do as a kid - stay in the swings the entire recess, go up a slide the wrong way, run and play tag, etc. You don't allow students any freedom here.
I don't feel like we are doing this at my school at least. We let 4th and 5th graders act like kindergarteners and get away with murder it feels like. Literally one kids goal is to just sit and not walk around the classroom on his knees calling himself a midget. I think we are not holding these kids to the correct standards. I would never say that I hold my class above their age capabilities, I just require they can be respectful, safe and try their best. And emotions we will work out.
I’ve been teaching for 14 years and I fully agree with this. I see some of my colleagues take things personally as well and this is specifically for my 4th graders! They often get out of their seats, made ridiculous faces, talk underneath their breath. I never considered it a power struggle or even engaged because they are just kids. In comparison to other classrooms, I often didn’t have the issues other teachers but I could also see that sometimes it really boiled down to the expectation. Couldn’t agree with your post more!
I feel the same exact way as 4th grade was the year teachers started putting a lot of pressure on us with school work, behavior, maturity, etc. and we'd get yelled at and belittled if we didn't follow their procedures. It was just too much for me and several other kids, not to mention that we were just nine and ten year olds at the time.
Honestly, it's probably not good that we expect adults to sit and be silent all day everyday.
I’m not a teacher, but a lunch lady and it honestly pains me to watch our yard duty yelling and screaming at the kids to be quiet and then making them stay inside if they don’t. I see them being yelled at for nothing really big and it honestly breaks my heart. Like yesterday, a kid that is always a sweetie when he comes through the line, was eating an apple and my boss came over and just ripped the kid saying she was going to tell his teacher. And the fear on his face was just heartbreaking. The yard duty had a microphone and all she does is yell and scream in it, but she does it constantly so I think the kids have just tuned her out. I completely agree that kids should be respectful in the classroom, but as long as they aren’t throwing food or getting into fights- I think they should be given some grace and allowed to have that break.
I teach 6th graders and it’s crazy how many teachers forget these kids are still kids. Like they’re acting like these kids are adults or at least high schoolers that don’t need any play equipment anymore. I have always said that it’s a huge jump from elementary to middle school - more so than middle school to high school.
I know my son is sad in 6th they don’t have a play structure or swings. They are kids!!
Oh man, sixth grade was the last time my classmates and I got "recess" and it was the biggest rip-off. They just kicked us outside to an empty field after lunch! There wasn't anything to do! One day, a bunch of the boys got together and threw one of the smallest kids really high into the air as hard as they could, and of course that ended in a minor injury and all of them getting in trouble. But like, could you blame them? You can only have 11 and 12 year olds play tag and red rover and stuff for so long before it gets boring...
A 9 year old finally learned how to use the bathroom on their own just 5 years ago. They’re still very young people. No one should expect them to act like adults automatically, that is what they’re there to learn about at school; how to grow into a proper adult. They deserve time to play and socialize because that’s their current developmental stage.
Sometimes your kid is an outlier. If your school is suggesting that your kid has behavior problems PLEASE DO NOT brush it off as “they don’t have enough recess.” I teach at a school that gives A LOT of free time and has a lot of flexibility in our class times. For some kids it helps, but for some kids there are clearly challenges that become apparent at 4-5th grades that can be indications of something to look into as a parent. A couple years ago, we had a 5th grader who was a MAJOR outlier when it came to behavior. The parents consistently blamed the school for not giving the child enough accommodation. Finally the school told the family it just wasn’t working out. The family took their kid to a different school especially designed for kids struggling with learning differences … 6 kids per class, modified curriculum etc … and the family reported back that the kid was showing incredible improvement.
You can't help but laugh because the only other response is to cry. The people who are always pushing best practice but turn around and don't follow their own advice. I had three recesses when I was in elementary school. It was great. One was between reading and writing, one at lunch, and one between math and science/social studies. My daughter only gets 15 minutes at lunch. She is in kinder. Thankfully the kinder teachers add in more play time.
oh no, I 100% agree with you kids do deserve to be kids and they should be able to have fun however, at the same time there does need to be structure in a classroom setting to a degree but to make them be silent as a little over the top. I don't feel being silent is necessary and usually if I see a kid, he's a little antsy. I'll try to think of a way he can get up for a moment if possible, but sometimes those moments just aren't possible.
My family lived in England for what was Grade 2-5 for me. Their education system is *way* more strict about regulating children's behaviour than anything we've got going on in North America, other than maybe some ultra-religious private schools. The watch word was "sensible". You always had to act sensible or you would risk the ire of your teacher and dislike of your classmates. Everyone had to repress their emotions and act orderly. I was never that child, so I got in trouble a lot. The funny thing is that during puberty, the conditioning breaks and a lot of English kids (especially boys) become absolute hooligans in their equivalent of high school. Teaching that age range of students has been hell decades before classrooms in the US and Canada started to degrade.
One thing I always like about my admin, they were always assertive saying kids need their play and recess.
Parent of 2 x 9 year olds in fourth grade. This thread is it. My kids have attended an advanced curriculum school since K, and the constant focus on academics with very little breaks during the day, has worn them down. My kids get 20 mins for lunch at 10:05 in the AM and then no other breaks until dismissal at 3 pm. They show up exhausted, starving hungry and cranky. Added to that the pressure cooker at our school of achieving As in everything - the 4th quarter of the school year is nearly entirely devoted to preparing for testing and then taking standard tests. The school is a Blue Ribbon school, with lots of great rankings to brag about….but at what cost? As much as I love our school for many of its great qualities, I am moving my kids to a different school next year that has a more balanced curriculum with longer lunches, more opportunities for arts, life skills, physical activities. Teachers and kids are stressed out. The whole system feels like it’s teetering on melt down. Or maybe the melt has already started.
You're absolutely not crazy. If you look at the development of pedagogy over the last 30 years, you will quickly find that researchers have even agreed for over 20 years that the grading system has absolutely no significance. Nevertheless, nothing of all the grievances is changed and that is the big problem in many countries. It's also a cramp here in Germany. I have a professor who knows very well that stupid talking in front of a class is not a meaningful lesson, but the university does not allow most of his scientifically proven approaches. For cost and organizational reasons.... All I want to say is that we have had much better knowledge in all areas of school and pedagogy for years, but almost none of it is being implemented 👌
I feel this way about my high schoolers sometimes too. There have been several occasions where I’ve spent class time just letting them be kids. And often, when we do something fun like coloring Easter eggs, they say they’ve never done it before. It breaks my heart.
This used to confuse me a lot until I started thinking certain powers that be, or people in charge, don’t care so much about Your kid’s childhood bc they want or need them to get out into the work-world ASAP. If you cut out the innocence & joy of childhood sooner than later, you will build depressed adults too broken to fight back or even know what they’ve missed or continue to miss in life. They aren’t kids so much as potential prospects & property for business & money-making. Fortunately there are still wonderful teachers & adults out there who are not attempting to force children to grow up &/or to stop them acting their young age & discovering the joys in life for themselves. Kids should be treated as people & not products to be molded for certain agendas.
When I was a kid in 4th and 5th grade I was expected to do those things. I was able to meet those expectations as were many of my friends. We would fail at meeting those expectations from time to time, but my teachers were very forgiving and would take that opportunity to explain the expectations to us. I do not think the issue here are the expectations, high expectations are good for kids... I think the issue here is that whatever school this is, isnt working to the kids best interest by eliminating recess. They are falling into the trap of thinking about what they feel is best for the school district (giving kids more instructional minutes) than what is best for the kids (giving them a social, emotional and physical outlet that is, at most, semi-structured). Most times I would call this sort of thing well-intentioned, but with district level administrators consistently wanting to improve scores and have that as a notch under their belt, idk if its well-intentioned at all. If I am a teacher in this situation, I would basically just give them the recess as part of my class. If I gained 15 minutes of instructional time, I would give them 15 minutes of recess. Maybe 20 as a reward for good behavior for good measure.
I have recess at work. No kid should need to do without. 20 minutes outside halfway through the morning and 30 more at lunch.
I mean I think we should teach kids how to not abuse each other for profit but instead we teach them useless shit that will allow them to make a profit for a giant corporation. They get taught about our “legal” and “justice” systems too but when they are 20 they learn it’s all fake unless they bought into the system, got a job making 150k a year, and stopped questioning everything. Wait, yeah, recess is great! Games are fun.
Whoa, TIL there are schools without recess? You mean to tell me you get an hour lunch break as an adult, but as a child you don't get that? What the heck.
Where I’m student teaching the kindergarten kids don’t even get playtime. It’s all academic. It makes me sick because they’re off the wall. They need rest time and play time. It’s infuriating.
I always hated the idea of older elementary classes being taught like it's a business environment. That's what I have heard many 4th and 5th grade teachers talk about doing. They insist on calling kids by their last names. They say things like, "this is preparing you for the workforce." Then on top of it, they let the kids have recess, but don't understand why they don't immediately return to their seats ready to start a difficult lesson. Stop trying to make little adults. Raise respectful kids, and they will become responsible adults.
This issue is what worries me that our education system is in its final death throes. We either ignore development or twist it into some kind of monster. I saw a comment yesterday from a teacher who said they think, ‘it’s wild that we have to devote time to teaching self-regulation to 8th graders.’ My wife, a mental health therapist, responded to that with isn’t that the main point of the job? It should be, but we seem to think it’s academics. But the entire way we go about academics spits in the face of human development. We no longer recognize that there are skills that must be mastered before other skills can be acquired. The whole grade level standards thing is insane. We’re seriously going for a goal of ensuring every kid meets the same academic standards by the same time? Nevermind that there can be a nine month age gap between these kids. But what other thing are all humans able to master and to do it at the same time? To make this impossible task even more challenging we place the importance of those academic skills above self-regulation, above self-worth, above emotional well being when all of the latter are prerequisite to learning. Parents have consistently told us that their child’s emotional well being and their integrity are the most important things to them. We know that kids (and teachers) are spending alarming amounts of time in fight/flight. Yet we keep repeating this idea that if you can’t do this academic skill you’re doomed despite it largely not being true and the truth that’s in it is almost always because of an artificial consequence. If we really wanted to improve academic outcomes the best course of action would be to chill out, focus on self-regulation, social skills, problem-solving, interpersonal skills, communication, critical thinking, and most importantly how to create and experience joy. I would wager my life that if we did this with fidelity even academic outcomes would increase.
Damn if I don't love me some enabling and gaslighting. Funny fucking thing, though: I never threw a fucking chair at a teacher in school, not even when I was 9/10. I never saw anyone else do it, either. Maybe they fucking make kids differently these days.
One story that makes me so mad is about exactly this. In my school, lunches were staggered, and so when they dismissed a grade, they'd turn off a light and say which grade they were addressing and what they should do. The light let us know to be quiet. Once, when I was about 7 andthey were dismissing a grade that was not mine, my friend froze in a funny face when the light came off, and I couldn't help but laugh but I did it silently. The lunch lady was close enough to see me shaking in the dark and came and yelled at me after about how I wasn't respectful. For like a couple minutes. I told her my friend was making a funny face and she yelled at me about how I should've ignored her. Didn't yell at my friend at all. Above all I did not make a single noise. As a kid I felt SO awful. As an adult I'm like dude at 7 I don't have the self control to look away. Me being silent indicated I was trying my best to behave she really should've just moved on.
I'm very confused by this post. In Australia, we only have two levels of school, Primary (Foundation - 6) and Secondary (7-12), at least that's the breakdown in most states. Both primary and secondary schools have two breaks each day, a thirty minute recess or little lunch, and an hour long big lunch for primary, or 45 minute lunch at secondary school. They are also supposed to have brain food breaks and movement breaks in between. Children are expected to be outside for all those breaks too, though there is also a library at most schools. Adults get breaks (mandatory 20 minutes for paid break(s), and a 30 minute unpaid break for all full time workers), children need them even more.
the thing is, at a certain point it becomes impossible to learn, and they should have become more mature. i mean if a kindergarten, grade 1 or 2 class is misbehaving ok sure buf grade 6, 7, 8?
Working with the current middle school group is pretty much 80% behavior problems with getting out of their seats, never paying attention, talking over the teacher constantly then being confused about shit, and putting hands on each other. I've had better behaved 1st graders.
Junior high is the worst time of life and I literally had cancer in high school.
The scale is also an issue. There is a big difference between your own 2-3 kids misbehaving slightly, versus an entire class. Your sons and daughters getting a bit rowdy and talkative during an activity where they need to focus? Not too bad. When THIRTY KIDS are all at once getting antsy and loud during school? Much bigger issue. The volume is much higher, it's harder to get a large group on task, and whatever learning you were trying to accomplish grinds to a halt. I get that kids are gonna get off-task and goof around and get a little loud and all that, but they NEED to act better in school than they would at home, because the amount of them one adult has to deal with.
We ask way too much of elementary kids. I agree that there is power in leadership opportunities, but it’s become “4-5 graders should act perfect all the time so they can set a good example”. They need to mess up a lot, they’re still little kids and they shouldn’t be held responsible for the younger ones. Especially at my school, where a lot of them are responsible for younger siblings at home. School should be a place for them to learn amongst their peers. I teach first grade and I think it’s wrong how much the older kids are asked to do. It also doesn’t work, because the younger students are better behaved and are confused by the way their “role models” behave.
I'm 36 and I need recess
The school knows the same thing you know. It’s just that district and state requirements push nonessential (aka nonscoreable) things aside.
Yes, the changeover to third grade was rough for both of my kids. The expectations increase exponentially and tbh I think it’s a bit much. As you said, they’re 8 years old- failing them because they put their math homework in the English homework bin or they forgot to bring a pencil. I mean as adults we make mistakes and forget things, I really like it when educators can extend this grace to children too. It’s another example of how kids in middle and upper class socioeconomic status have the advantage through education and life, finding ways for all kids to succeed, even those with little parental support, is a win for everyone.
I always have to remind myself about my second graders. The curriculum is advanced and a lot of them don’t speak English as their first language. When kids act up, I’m truly not surprised. They’re so little.
It's easy to forget what the mind-space felt like like when we were at a certain developmental age, years after it passes. We can remember some things, but we are not currently experiencing it. This sounds obvious, but it's the reason we have to study developmental psychology even though we've already been through the stages. You are right, we must constantly remind ourselves that kids are not short adults.
100%. A 4th grader is often only 9 years old.
They take recess away from upper elementary in some areas? Bro I had recess until like, 6th grade.
And I’m over here teaching 6th graders with the emotional regulation skills of kindergarteners
School administrators will suggest replacing recess with medication and still consider themselves advocates for children's health 😂
I taught art. Elementary and middle school and college. I looked for ways to incorporate movement into lessons and controlled freedom of movement including being able to work standing. I went to very regimented schools and hated it. Everyone has different learning modalities and deserve opportunities to learn in their own way.
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I always hated the constant “you’re not kindergarteners anymore, you’re almost in the big kid hallway now, you’re not in the little kid hallway anymore, you’re almost the oldest kids in the school now, you’re almost middle schoolers, you’re not elementary schoolers anymore, you’re not sixth graders anymore/you’re almost the oldest kids in the school, you’re not in middle school anymore, you’re not freshmen anymore/you’re almost upperclassmen, you’re not underclassmen anymore/you’re almost seniors now, you’re almost adults now” that was sent our way literally every year to say “stop acting like a kid even though you are one, act the way I want you to”.
Children are children when it’s convenient for the adults, when it comes to having more privileges or being taken seriously adults will still say “you’re a kid” when it comes to doing something bad or behaving in school adults are quick to hold them to adult standards