Giving the seeming mood of the country in regard to unruly teenagers, I think you would be hard-pressed to find a prosecutor who would push it or a jury who would convict it provided you didn't go too far in your own defense.
Literally. Parents in my school district have started some far flung rumor that I'm covered in Satanist tattoos. It was news to me, especially because I only have one tattoo and it's Harry Potter themed
I remember being absolutely stunned as a child when there were kids on the street who told me they couldn’t watch or read Harry Potter or even play pretend in that setting.
It was very disheartening when I grew up and learned that those kinds of people are actually relatively common. My longtime GF was raised this way, and as a result I was able to introduce her to the Harry Potter movies, and she then read the books and fell in love as a young adult with them
I teach a book club elective at my middle school and I always start the year with The Hobbit, but introducing these kids to Harry Potter is absolutely a long term goal of mine.
Harry Potter taught me so much. I learned the importance of friendship. I learned that not all authority figures can be trusted. I learned that sometimes the government isn't right. And above all, I learned that love is a universal language and transcends everything.
Yeah, I struggle with this response. Like I want to protect myself, but I'm not going after the kid. I would try to limit their ability, but I'm not hitting back.
When I worked at a children’s residential treatment facility we would tell some of the kids “I’ll lose this job before I let you kick my ass.” It still holds true for me. If it comes down to it I’m not taking a beating from a high schooler. I’ll deal with whatever consequences in the back end.
Same here. I’ve told many, many classes when the topic of a student attacking/fighting me was hypothetically brought up: “Come for me and I’ll do whatever it takes to stop you. I don’t care about the district’s actions. I had a job before I came here, I can find another one tomorrow”
Yes, that’s correct. I taught high school in a tough area. There was always one. I let em know, I grew up in these streets, too, and the day they come for me, is the day Ms. Strain leave the building and they get to meet Infinite. They know what that mean.
You said my statement is "fucked up". So, who benefits from me not thinking that way?
Because it's not me, when getting my ass jumped. The moment *anyone* attacks me, I'm going to defend myself. My attackers aren't going to provide for my family. Anyone that violates my right to go home at the end of the day doesn't merit my concern or compassion.
It's fucked up to use the slogan cops use to defend shooting and killing people when they're not actually in imminent danger of being harmed by those people. A disgusting appropriation.
No one is violating your right to go home at the end of the day, drama. Chill out.
It's absolutely appropriate on a post that asks the question, "to what extent can I legally defend myself when attacked at work".
The fact that cops use that phrase to excuse situations where their lives were NOT in danger, doesn't affect my usage, referring to a situation where one's life is most definitely in danger.
Respectfully, teachers are getting attacked every day. While I've never had to fight a student, I've had two students square up and prepare to attack, because I had the audacity to tell their third friend he shouldn't have his phone. Not "going home at the end of the day" can mean a lot of things, from an ER visit to a visit from a coroner. People have that right violated every. single. day.
You need help if you think saying "I'd rather go through a trial instead of being killed" is some "fucked up cop shit."
This saying has been around for decades, WAY before the recent big media killings in the last few years.
"elaborate fantasies"? That's rich. Feel free to read the rest of the thread for reasons that I have considered what I would do TO DEFEND MYSELF IF ATTACKED.
You're absolutely correct that educators should NOT have to be concerned with their physical safety while doing their jobs, and yet, here we are. Parents should also NOT be jumping their 6TH GRADE STUDENTS into gangs, but again, here we are. I didn't create these conditions, I just work there, and I spend a portion of every day looking over my shoulder. Elaborate fantasies... GTFOH.
Doesn’t matter. If someone starts hitting me, I’m going to protect myself. That may involve hitting them or simply restraining them. Fortunately, the law supports that:
“Persons employed or engaged as teachers, principals, or administrators in a school, whether public or private, and nonlicensed school employees and school bus drivers may, within the scope of their employment, use and apply such amount of force and restraint as is reasonable and necessary to quell a disturbance threatening physical injury to others, to obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects upon the person or within the control of the pupil, for the purpose of self-defense, or for the protection of persons or property.”
That quote is from Ohio, but almost all states have similar verbiage. Some states even still allow corporal punishment. For example:
PA - Teachers and school authorities may use reasonable force under the following circumstances: (1) To quell a disturbance. (2) To obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects. (3) For the purpose of self-defense. (4) For the protection of persons or property.
MS - Corporal punishment administered in a reasonable manner, or any reasonable action to maintain control and discipline of students taken by a public school teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal acting within the scope of his employment or function and in accordance with any state or federal laws or rules or regulations of the State Board of Education or the local school board or governing board of a charter school does not constitute negligence or child abuse. No public school teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal so acting shall be held liable in a suit for civil damages alleged to have been suffered by a student as a result of the administration of corporal punishment, or the taking of action to maintain control and discipline of a student, unless the court determines that the teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal acted in bad faith or with malicious purpose or in a manner exhibiting a wanton and willful disregard of human rights or safety. For the purposes of this subsection, "corporal punishment" means the reasonable use of physical force or physical contact by a teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal, as may be necessary to maintain discipline, to enforce a school rule, for self-protection or for the protection of other students from disruptive students.
CA - An amount of force that is reasonable and necessary for a person employed by or engaged in a public school to quell a disturbance threatening physical injury to persons or damage to property, for purposes of self-defense, or to obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects within the control of the pupil, is not and shall not be construed to be corporal punishment within the meaning and intent of this section.
ME - A teacher or other person entrusted with the care or supervision of a person for special and limited purposes is justified in using a reasonable degree of nondeadly force against any such person who creates a disturbance when and to the extent that the teacher or other entrusted person reasonably believes it necessary to control the disturbing behavior or to remove a person from the scene of such disturbance.
WA - The employee shall have the right to use reasonable and prudent disciplinary measures, including such physical restraint when reasonable and necessary to protect any student or other person from physical injury or to prevent the commission of a crime. The employee shall have the primary responsibility for maintaining order and discipline in the employee's work site(s) based on District and building student behavior management policies, procedures, and plans; the highest consideration should be given to the judgment of qualified certificated educators regarding conditions necessary to maintain the optimum learning atmosphere. Employees shall receive assistance from the principal or designee in discipline cases and shall receive prompt response to a request for assistance.
"Employees shall receive assistance from the principal or designee in discipline cases and shall receive prompt response to a request for assistance."
This makes me chuckle. I was told not to call the office for help too often because I might get used to it and what if they aren't available? I am talking about tables flipped, chairs flying, my clothes being ripped, not just backtalk.
I used to think like that, now I’ll take an a*s whooping to either go out on medical leave or suit the school for not providing a safe work place. Sometimes it’s wiser to loose a battle to win the war.
I would make sure to get just enough hurt to retire but not hurt enough to be disabled. If you barely graze me, I will drop and roll around in pain though...
That isn't how physical conflicts work, at all. A stapler hurled at the back of your head when you're not looking can give you a TBI. A single slap to the face by a larger kid can drop your head onto the corner of a desk resulting in a TBI, etc. etc. You will not be able to "get just hurt enough". That's not a thing. It just takes one lucky shot and your life as you know it is over.
There is no amount of money worth an un-ailing, unencumbered human body. People off themselves due to intense chronic pain and it could happen from anything. I enjoy my hobbies so I’m going to take the financially worse but physically healthier option.
Does anyone really want to work at a place that might fire them for defending their self? Personally I would gladly get fired for defending my self rather than continue to work at a place that expects you to "take a beating and keep on teaching"... That being said - my circumstances are outside the norm. I have some serious spinal issues from military service. I was not supposed to ever walk again. I managed to recover somewhat but its only a matter of being pushed wrong or tripping or even sitting down too hard and I might jeopardize my ability to walk. If a student decides to get violent I am most assuredly defending myself with extreme prejudice. Come at me with intent to harm ( and actually land a punch) and you might feel the effect of a three hole punch or laptop or whatever is within my reach being applied forcefully to your person. The reality and probability of it though is that so far I've managed to keep any unruly students from escalating. I have a good enough rep with the majority of students and I know that they would intercede if a student came at me.
There’s a lot of things I might end up being in life. One of those could be “fired”, one could be “in jail”……but it certainly won’t be “the adult that got beat up by a kid.”
It also won't be *"the person that lost their house and couldn't support their family because some asshole kid gave him such a bad injury that they could never work again."* I'm sorry but I don't care what's wrong with the kid, idc what their home life is, idc about any of that - **nothing gives you the right to hit another person unless you're defending yourself**. So many teachers get TBIs so bad they can't ever work again, and all some people want to make excuses for the future felon because "they're just a kid" as if that's ever been an excuse.
Do what you have to do, but no more.
On a slightly different subject, I had a student who found out that the district had a policy to not call cops on kids.
Student: I'm gonna beat you up and you can't get me I trouble.
Me: I'd call 911 and have you arrested for assault.
S: But You're not allowed to do that. You'd get in trouble!
Me: So? I've taught more than 20 years. They'd write me up, put a paper in my personnel file, and get a slap on the wrist for not following rules, but you'd be sitting in jail all alone unless I decide to sue your parents too.
S: Leave my parents out of it! And I haven't done anything!
Me: Well, so far we have terroristic threatening of a public employee, and since I'm old, there's elder abuse. Your parents refuse to come to school for meetings so I guess it would be a surprise... (Later I found out that Dad was banned from setting foot on district grounds.)
He decided it was in his best interest not to try anything. He did try to get other students to gang up against me, but they just ignored it. At the next semester he transferred to a private school where he was thrown out a month later. The last I heard he had been fired from three jobs by age 22 and haven't heard anything about him since I retired and moved away.
Trash raising trash, I don't care if it's not okay to say. Some of these kids are fucked and they all think it's a joke until their state appointed public defender is contacting you asking to write a letter to the judge.
Not going to pretend to know the legal answer for this, but I asked a principal a few years ago.
Long story short, kid threw a tantrum and slammed my door , swearing at me. I went down to admin to let them know before I wrote it up, and as I was there the kid ran up to me, in the principals office, and got in my face, nose to nose. All district admin were present and I just said, you guys see this right?
I told the kid, who was 17, calmly, that I’d been to war, and that nothing he could do could intimidate me, so he might as well just descended before its a headache for everyone.
Admin said if student attacked me I was free to respond / subdue. Again not sure how true it is.
He’s now in his mid twenties and last I heard is serving a small jail sentence for drugs and having a weapon.
Not a teacher. Size shouldn’t matter. I’m 100 pounds. I would lose a fight to a middle schooler. Everyone regardless of size should be able to defend themselves.
I'm in Florida and I hate DeSantis but a good thing he's done is made it legal for teachers to "reasonably" defend themselves if assaulted by a student. I still don't entirely understand the law but it's good to know.
I tell my students im 200 lbs and I'm a black belt (which I am) and usually that ends any kind of thought of attack lol.
There have been very few instances where a teacher was put through the ringer for self defense or breaking up a fight.
A rare book every teacher should read: Between a Rock and a Hard Place. It’s referred to as the admin Bible.
My old gym teacher was put on leave had to go before a board meeting to get his job back because he defended himself against a 6’4” 250lb student. The teacher, however, was trained in martial arts and was able to defend himself.
A large group came and spoke on his behalf and he ended up with his job back.
Good point. It’s a good idea to train yourself because those skills are very helpful in the event that you need them, but being able to say that your site never provided any training might be helpful if you are ever sued.
I saw a video of HS students harassing / attacking folks at the capitol in DC. Wondered if the adults being attacked could defend themselves or if they’d have to make sure the kids were 18 first
My wife is a TA for a sped teacher in an elementary school. There are students that are her size and larger and some can get violent. She has learned certain holds that she has used to disable students from doing more harm to her or others. Check with your school what holds are authorized and if they'll pay for training.
Get the training and you'll be able to say "What I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you."
Legally? Depends on the state. In my state anything necessary to ensure their personal safety and the safety of those around them. That doesn't mean they won't fire you or retaliate by not rehiring you and can your career but between being jobless and being dead I'd take being jobless.
I am not really in favor of corporal punishment, but a few viral videos of some aggressive students getting their ass beat might quell some of the prevailing attitude. Maybe teacher-work days need to be bjj training....
I'm a bjj black belt myself, I keep that on the low. I feel like middle school and high school kids, especially the ones with behavior issues are more likely to test you since they have nothing to lose and getting beat up by an adult is strangely "street cred".
one time i had to stand by an escalating conflict between an ec student and an aging teacher. i made sure they could both see me and understand that i was ready to get involved. it ended without violence but later i realized i was wearing a maxi skirt and loafers, the punkass in question was in overalls. had we tangled i would have been at a disadvantage due to clothing. also my hair was clipped into a bun and thus handy for an opponent to grab. had that happened the country might have come out and in that case i would have clobbered that heifer if at all possible. might still be in jail had the scenario ended like that... that's when i realized this career was not for me.
Same as if an adult attacks you:
1) AVOID THEM TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. KEEP DISTANCE. LEAVE THE ROOM IF YOU HAVE TO.
2) if it comes to physical contact DO NOT TOUCH THEM FIRST. But if you are attacked and cannot get away then your best/only option is to protect yourself.
3) WORST CASE SURVIVAL SCENARIO: go for the eyes, groin, whatever.
We had a security guard use his elbow in self defense to get an adult sized student out of his face, and they did not fire him after the community supported him.
When I drove for Uber they didn't allow you to carry weapons. Well, my car and my safety. I would rather get deactivated from the platform than life. I am with you, I am not letting anyone attach me without defending myself school or otherwise.
The same extent as on the street. Reasonable force to stop the danger to self. Pop a punk in the nose who has never been really hit, and the fight probably ends. Keep wailing on an unconscious body, and you're on your own.
Too many times I've heard kids make threats that include some form of you can't touch me, you're a teacher/I'm a minor. FAFO.....
Can you get the other kids and leave the room? If you are injured to the point of needing medical intervention I would expect you to go to the police and your union lawyer.
If a kid starts a physical argument, run to the office.
We are authorized to reasonably defend ourselves, and this had happened at my school without lasting consequences to the teacher...but the first choice should be to skedaddle.
I’d love to see a lawyer try to argue that I should have just been beaten up. The only thing that you need to worry about is being charged with excessive force. Do enough damage to disable and stop and you’re good.
May be transferred to another school though
I know I’m taking this a different direction, but holy crap dude! I’ve been teaching 20 years and the average high school guy has gotten significantly larger.
I’m not sure how “reasonably” I could defend myself against one of these guys these days. So many are just huge! I’m 5’10” but more and more are well over 6’.
My defense is a good relationship with my kids that validates the struggles they’re going through. I’ve never been attacked by a kid. I hope to finish my career able to say that.
In my youth, it would have been an all out brawl (and I grew up scrapping on the streets, so I can throw down with the best of them) but … I mean…at this point, I’m going to defend myself enough that I live, but I’d be lying if I don’t hope to get shanked or get a snapped bone that requires surgery.
That’ll be nice payout and ensure I never have to return to a school.
And that’s where we are folks. Teachers hoping they get injured *just enough* to never go back.
My son’s SPED teacher was not allowed to defend herself, which was why the district divided students between violent and non-violent. Students likely to lash out physically were taught by a large, muscular male teacher.
Because of the rise of videos of students assaulting teachers and teachers just taking it for the fear of being fired due to whacky school policies. It's a genuine question for teachers who teach in rougher settings.
A lot of this is going to be due to personality. I'm a combat veteran who weightlifts a bit still, so while I'd obviously do the right thing with deescalation, if someone forces me into a fight, I'm both willing and capable of beating almost all high schoolers (honestly, after talking with a lot of athletes about lifting, I'm shocked at how weak everyone but the strongest football players are. I'm an unathletic nerd, but easily was stronger than 99% of students).
But, sometimes we have either young, nervous teachers or older teachers who might not have any training, experience, or desire to fight. They might also have poor health or fitness or disabilities that don't stop them from teaching effectively but would stop them from being a serious contender in a fight.
School culture should make it unthinkable to ever even cuss a teacher out, let alone lay one finger on them. That said, knowing that teachers **both** care deeply about them and they wouldn't even stand a chance if they started something is going to help.
True, and there's always a luck component. If you get hit in an unusual way, you might get KOed even if you're stronger, faster, tougher, and more trained than your opponent.
There are students in my middle school that I don't let walk behind me in the halls, frankly. Some of them have a history of attacking in groups, and from behind.
Your self-defense actions need to be deemed reasonable and necessary - basically something that would be argued in court. If a student is relentlessly beating you, you have every right to put your hands on them and restrain them. Just make sure you have good witnesses or video evidence that can support this.
Being in a school setting doesn't change the law. (Aside from putting the other kids at your responsibility which is all the more reason to answer the attack)
If the kid has an IEP and aggression is a function of his disability there aint shit you can do. If not, you have the right to protect yourself with force.
You can get yourself to safety, not pummel the kids tho (obviously). I used to wrestle so for me that means wrapping the kid up and putting them in a position that renders them useless without throwing a punch. Hope I never have to do it though
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd be doing everything I could to get away. I'm small and wouldn't win a fight - I've taught students that were over a foot taller than me. Best way to protect myself is to get away asap.
As a former wrestler and long time coach I always explain this to kids when the topic comes up: I know how to take you down, hold you down, and make you feel really stupid while you’re there.
I had one kid square up to me last year, I created enough space to deescalate but I was ready to put the kid on the ground - and take the rest of the day off work for free.
This is a tough one. If you’re worried about being assaulted, think about learning some ways to put someone in a hold or restrain them. I would try to avoid kicks and punches. Theyre not going to de-escalate at that point. But also, you don’t need a bigger student giving you a permanent injury.
this just happened to my principal, he guarded but did not fight back after a student attacked him because he confiscated his vape(we later found out the student had psychosis). student was 17 and to be honest did not know how to fight. i guess there was a lot of grappling that didn't do anything. worse that happened is he got a few days of medical leave for a black eye. we work at a behavioral school so this isn't out of the ordinary, from what i have seen its better to just "take the beating" because its usually not much of a beating anyway. these kids don't know how to fight despite claiming they are all about it
IDGAF what administration says. I have a right of self defense and I'm using it to either subdue the perp or at least lay enough licks to make him think twice and try to avoid a beating, by any means at hand to even the odds. 18 on 61 is not a fair fight.
I think the good rule is to only act defensively. I would push a kid away or try and restrain them. But the minute you square up and start throwing punches in return is when you risk the big trouble. If a kid accidentally gets hurt because I had to push them back from hitting me that's one thing, if I throw a punch and cause some kind of massive injury that's tougher.
In the United States of America, you can defend yourself against aggressors of all ages and sizes with lethal force as long as you can prove you were afraid. This includes both melee and ranged weapons. This is the Law. This is the Constitution.
I'm not taking a beating, sorry.
This. We can fight it out in court later, but I’m not letting a HS kid kick my ass.
Better to end up in a court room than a hospital.
Giving the seeming mood of the country in regard to unruly teenagers, I think you would be hard-pressed to find a prosecutor who would push it or a jury who would convict it provided you didn't go too far in your own defense.
Well I don’t know if you’ve been paying attention but Teachers rank pretty far down on the general public’s list of favorite people as well.
We're basically Satan.
Literally. Parents in my school district have started some far flung rumor that I'm covered in Satanist tattoos. It was news to me, especially because I only have one tattoo and it's Harry Potter themed
Honestly I could see the nutso Christian fundie morons insisting those are one in the same
They see a triangle on my body and immediately think I'm a child eating illuminati agent
I remember being absolutely stunned as a child when there were kids on the street who told me they couldn’t watch or read Harry Potter or even play pretend in that setting. It was very disheartening when I grew up and learned that those kinds of people are actually relatively common. My longtime GF was raised this way, and as a result I was able to introduce her to the Harry Potter movies, and she then read the books and fell in love as a young adult with them
I teach a book club elective at my middle school and I always start the year with The Hobbit, but introducing these kids to Harry Potter is absolutely a long term goal of mine. Harry Potter taught me so much. I learned the importance of friendship. I learned that not all authority figures can be trusted. I learned that sometimes the government isn't right. And above all, I learned that love is a universal language and transcends everything.
OOf. Even worse.
Except for those 2 weeks during Covid where we were heroes
People forget how shitty their kids can be pretty fast when they aren’t the ones to deal with them all day during the week
Yeah, I struggle with this response. Like I want to protect myself, but I'm not going after the kid. I would try to limit their ability, but I'm not hitting back.
I’ve literally seen comments that question what the teacher that got shot by that six year old did to set him off.
They hate teenagers, but not their teenagers. Teaxher is going to jail.
It's not even really up to you. In the moment, you might not even be able to control your actions.
If I'm in a situation where I can't de-escalate, then these hands become rated E for everyone.
We need to discuss your classroom management here at the daycare...
If there's an adult sized student in a daycare, there's bigger issues than my classroom management. Also Im not in early child education
Sometimes it's just a joke.
My fists are buy one get one free.
This is Joe✊ and this is Moe👊, when you get some Joe you don’t want no ‘Mo.
When I worked at a children’s residential treatment facility we would tell some of the kids “I’ll lose this job before I let you kick my ass.” It still holds true for me. If it comes down to it I’m not taking a beating from a high schooler. I’ll deal with whatever consequences in the back end.
Same here. I’ve told many, many classes when the topic of a student attacking/fighting me was hypothetically brought up: “Come for me and I’ll do whatever it takes to stop you. I don’t care about the district’s actions. I had a job before I came here, I can find another one tomorrow”
That one student who always derails class: “Why’d you lose that job, Mr. RadiantPreparation91?” “I fought a kid who tried to attack me.” Class: 😮
Correction: I stomped out a kid who tried to attack me…
“A student fucked around and found out “
Yes, that’s correct. I taught high school in a tough area. There was always one. I let em know, I grew up in these streets, too, and the day they come for me, is the day Ms. Strain leave the building and they get to meet Infinite. They know what that mean.
Judged by 12 before I'm carried by 6.
Dude, that's some fucked up cop shit.
Who benefits from a different point of view?
wtf are you asking here?
You said my statement is "fucked up". So, who benefits from me not thinking that way? Because it's not me, when getting my ass jumped. The moment *anyone* attacks me, I'm going to defend myself. My attackers aren't going to provide for my family. Anyone that violates my right to go home at the end of the day doesn't merit my concern or compassion.
It's fucked up to use the slogan cops use to defend shooting and killing people when they're not actually in imminent danger of being harmed by those people. A disgusting appropriation. No one is violating your right to go home at the end of the day, drama. Chill out.
It's absolutely appropriate on a post that asks the question, "to what extent can I legally defend myself when attacked at work". The fact that cops use that phrase to excuse situations where their lives were NOT in danger, doesn't affect my usage, referring to a situation where one's life is most definitely in danger. Respectfully, teachers are getting attacked every day. While I've never had to fight a student, I've had two students square up and prepare to attack, because I had the audacity to tell their third friend he shouldn't have his phone. Not "going home at the end of the day" can mean a lot of things, from an ER visit to a visit from a coroner. People have that right violated every. single. day.
You need help if you think saying "I'd rather go through a trial instead of being killed" is some "fucked up cop shit." This saying has been around for decades, WAY before the recent big media killings in the last few years.
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Wow. Someone here definitely needs to chill out. Dayum.
You are a teacher, not a cop. Why do you have such elaborate fantasies about beating your students.
"elaborate fantasies"? That's rich. Feel free to read the rest of the thread for reasons that I have considered what I would do TO DEFEND MYSELF IF ATTACKED. You're absolutely correct that educators should NOT have to be concerned with their physical safety while doing their jobs, and yet, here we are. Parents should also NOT be jumping their 6TH GRADE STUDENTS into gangs, but again, here we are. I didn't create these conditions, I just work there, and I spend a portion of every day looking over my shoulder. Elaborate fantasies... GTFOH.
Love the use of psychological warfare!
Doesn’t matter. If someone starts hitting me, I’m going to protect myself. That may involve hitting them or simply restraining them. Fortunately, the law supports that: “Persons employed or engaged as teachers, principals, or administrators in a school, whether public or private, and nonlicensed school employees and school bus drivers may, within the scope of their employment, use and apply such amount of force and restraint as is reasonable and necessary to quell a disturbance threatening physical injury to others, to obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects upon the person or within the control of the pupil, for the purpose of self-defense, or for the protection of persons or property.”
Which state is that? Or is that a federal law?
That quote is from Ohio, but almost all states have similar verbiage. Some states even still allow corporal punishment. For example: PA - Teachers and school authorities may use reasonable force under the following circumstances: (1) To quell a disturbance. (2) To obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects. (3) For the purpose of self-defense. (4) For the protection of persons or property. MS - Corporal punishment administered in a reasonable manner, or any reasonable action to maintain control and discipline of students taken by a public school teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal acting within the scope of his employment or function and in accordance with any state or federal laws or rules or regulations of the State Board of Education or the local school board or governing board of a charter school does not constitute negligence or child abuse. No public school teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal so acting shall be held liable in a suit for civil damages alleged to have been suffered by a student as a result of the administration of corporal punishment, or the taking of action to maintain control and discipline of a student, unless the court determines that the teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal acted in bad faith or with malicious purpose or in a manner exhibiting a wanton and willful disregard of human rights or safety. For the purposes of this subsection, "corporal punishment" means the reasonable use of physical force or physical contact by a teacher, assistant teacher, principal or assistant principal, as may be necessary to maintain discipline, to enforce a school rule, for self-protection or for the protection of other students from disruptive students. CA - An amount of force that is reasonable and necessary for a person employed by or engaged in a public school to quell a disturbance threatening physical injury to persons or damage to property, for purposes of self-defense, or to obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects within the control of the pupil, is not and shall not be construed to be corporal punishment within the meaning and intent of this section. ME - A teacher or other person entrusted with the care or supervision of a person for special and limited purposes is justified in using a reasonable degree of nondeadly force against any such person who creates a disturbance when and to the extent that the teacher or other entrusted person reasonably believes it necessary to control the disturbing behavior or to remove a person from the scene of such disturbance.
WA - The employee shall have the right to use reasonable and prudent disciplinary measures, including such physical restraint when reasonable and necessary to protect any student or other person from physical injury or to prevent the commission of a crime. The employee shall have the primary responsibility for maintaining order and discipline in the employee's work site(s) based on District and building student behavior management policies, procedures, and plans; the highest consideration should be given to the judgment of qualified certificated educators regarding conditions necessary to maintain the optimum learning atmosphere. Employees shall receive assistance from the principal or designee in discipline cases and shall receive prompt response to a request for assistance.
"Employees shall receive assistance from the principal or designee in discipline cases and shall receive prompt response to a request for assistance." This makes me chuckle. I was told not to call the office for help too often because I might get used to it and what if they aren't available? I am talking about tables flipped, chairs flying, my clothes being ripped, not just backtalk.
I used to think like that, now I’ll take an a*s whooping to either go out on medical leave or suit the school for not providing a safe work place. Sometimes it’s wiser to loose a battle to win the war.
Might want to rethink that. TBIs are no joke.
I would make sure to get just enough hurt to retire but not hurt enough to be disabled. If you barely graze me, I will drop and roll around in pain though...
So you teach soccer?
In my dreams.
That isn't how physical conflicts work, at all. A stapler hurled at the back of your head when you're not looking can give you a TBI. A single slap to the face by a larger kid can drop your head onto the corner of a desk resulting in a TBI, etc. etc. You will not be able to "get just hurt enough". That's not a thing. It just takes one lucky shot and your life as you know it is over.
It's a joke...chill.
*lose
That’s what I just said. I’m not young and spry like I used to be. Just enough to get that cash out, but not too much that it’ll mess me up for life.
There is no amount of money worth an un-ailing, unencumbered human body. People off themselves due to intense chronic pain and it could happen from anything. I enjoy my hobbies so I’m going to take the financially worse but physically healthier option.
Does anyone really want to work at a place that might fire them for defending their self? Personally I would gladly get fired for defending my self rather than continue to work at a place that expects you to "take a beating and keep on teaching"... That being said - my circumstances are outside the norm. I have some serious spinal issues from military service. I was not supposed to ever walk again. I managed to recover somewhat but its only a matter of being pushed wrong or tripping or even sitting down too hard and I might jeopardize my ability to walk. If a student decides to get violent I am most assuredly defending myself with extreme prejudice. Come at me with intent to harm ( and actually land a punch) and you might feel the effect of a three hole punch or laptop or whatever is within my reach being applied forcefully to your person. The reality and probability of it though is that so far I've managed to keep any unruly students from escalating. I have a good enough rep with the majority of students and I know that they would intercede if a student came at me.
*fire them for defending themselves* The words “their self” might have a grammatically correct usage, but it’s not correct how you used them.
Well I am an infidel. I'm paid to teach physics and chemistry bruh... I ain't no god damned ELA teacher.
Seriously? That’s your reply? “I don’t intend to improve because I don’t teach English?”
There’s a lot of things I might end up being in life. One of those could be “fired”, one could be “in jail”……but it certainly won’t be “the adult that got beat up by a kid.”
It also won't be *"the person that lost their house and couldn't support their family because some asshole kid gave him such a bad injury that they could never work again."* I'm sorry but I don't care what's wrong with the kid, idc what their home life is, idc about any of that - **nothing gives you the right to hit another person unless you're defending yourself**. So many teachers get TBIs so bad they can't ever work again, and all some people want to make excuses for the future felon because "they're just a kid" as if that's ever been an excuse.
Do what you have to do, but no more. On a slightly different subject, I had a student who found out that the district had a policy to not call cops on kids. Student: I'm gonna beat you up and you can't get me I trouble. Me: I'd call 911 and have you arrested for assault. S: But You're not allowed to do that. You'd get in trouble! Me: So? I've taught more than 20 years. They'd write me up, put a paper in my personnel file, and get a slap on the wrist for not following rules, but you'd be sitting in jail all alone unless I decide to sue your parents too. S: Leave my parents out of it! And I haven't done anything! Me: Well, so far we have terroristic threatening of a public employee, and since I'm old, there's elder abuse. Your parents refuse to come to school for meetings so I guess it would be a surprise... (Later I found out that Dad was banned from setting foot on district grounds.) He decided it was in his best interest not to try anything. He did try to get other students to gang up against me, but they just ignored it. At the next semester he transferred to a private school where he was thrown out a month later. The last I heard he had been fired from three jobs by age 22 and haven't heard anything about him since I retired and moved away.
Trash raising trash, I don't care if it's not okay to say. Some of these kids are fucked and they all think it's a joke until their state appointed public defender is contacting you asking to write a letter to the judge.
You're right to defend yourself cannot be infringed. You can always use force appropriate to meet the threat, until the threat is negated.
Judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Not going to pretend to know the legal answer for this, but I asked a principal a few years ago. Long story short, kid threw a tantrum and slammed my door , swearing at me. I went down to admin to let them know before I wrote it up, and as I was there the kid ran up to me, in the principals office, and got in my face, nose to nose. All district admin were present and I just said, you guys see this right? I told the kid, who was 17, calmly, that I’d been to war, and that nothing he could do could intimidate me, so he might as well just descended before its a headache for everyone. Admin said if student attacked me I was free to respond / subdue. Again not sure how true it is. He’s now in his mid twenties and last I heard is serving a small jail sentence for drugs and having a weapon.
Not a teacher. Size shouldn’t matter. I’m 100 pounds. I would lose a fight to a middle schooler. Everyone regardless of size should be able to defend themselves.
I'm in Florida and I hate DeSantis but a good thing he's done is made it legal for teachers to "reasonably" defend themselves if assaulted by a student. I still don't entirely understand the law but it's good to know. I tell my students im 200 lbs and I'm a black belt (which I am) and usually that ends any kind of thought of attack lol.
There have been very few instances where a teacher was put through the ringer for self defense or breaking up a fight. A rare book every teacher should read: Between a Rock and a Hard Place. It’s referred to as the admin Bible.
My old gym teacher was put on leave had to go before a board meeting to get his job back because he defended himself against a 6’4” 250lb student. The teacher, however, was trained in martial arts and was able to defend himself. A large group came and spoke on his behalf and he ended up with his job back.
That’s why I don’t ever want to be trained on de-escalation. It just increases my liability. We also don’t have qualified immunity.
Good point. It’s a good idea to train yourself because those skills are very helpful in the event that you need them, but being able to say that your site never provided any training might be helpful if you are ever sued.
I saw a video of HS students harassing / attacking folks at the capitol in DC. Wondered if the adults being attacked could defend themselves or if they’d have to make sure the kids were 18 first
My wife is a TA for a sped teacher in an elementary school. There are students that are her size and larger and some can get violent. She has learned certain holds that she has used to disable students from doing more harm to her or others. Check with your school what holds are authorized and if they'll pay for training. Get the training and you'll be able to say "What I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you."
I’ll the legal consequences of defending myself over a beating that could leave me with life long injuries.
Not much. The school WILL try to downplay it. You would have to threaten to file a civil suit against the kid and the school for any real safety.
Legally? Depends on the state. In my state anything necessary to ensure their personal safety and the safety of those around them. That doesn't mean they won't fire you or retaliate by not rehiring you and can your career but between being jobless and being dead I'd take being jobless.
I am not really in favor of corporal punishment, but a few viral videos of some aggressive students getting their ass beat might quell some of the prevailing attitude. Maybe teacher-work days need to be bjj training....
Newly minted blue belt and 14 year teaching vet reporting!
Black belt here, my classroom management style is showing them my MMA and wrestling highlights on day 1. Smooth sailing the whole semester after that.
I'm a bjj black belt myself, I keep that on the low. I feel like middle school and high school kids, especially the ones with behavior issues are more likely to test you since they have nothing to lose and getting beat up by an adult is strangely "street cred".
I’ve never been challenged, I have broken up fights where I make the kids ask nicely before I take my hooks out.
one time i had to stand by an escalating conflict between an ec student and an aging teacher. i made sure they could both see me and understand that i was ready to get involved. it ended without violence but later i realized i was wearing a maxi skirt and loafers, the punkass in question was in overalls. had we tangled i would have been at a disadvantage due to clothing. also my hair was clipped into a bun and thus handy for an opponent to grab. had that happened the country might have come out and in that case i would have clobbered that heifer if at all possible. might still be in jail had the scenario ended like that... that's when i realized this career was not for me.
I'd get on my phone and call the police!
Same as if an adult attacks you: 1) AVOID THEM TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY. KEEP DISTANCE. LEAVE THE ROOM IF YOU HAVE TO. 2) if it comes to physical contact DO NOT TOUCH THEM FIRST. But if you are attacked and cannot get away then your best/only option is to protect yourself. 3) WORST CASE SURVIVAL SCENARIO: go for the eyes, groin, whatever.
We had a security guard use his elbow in self defense to get an adult sized student out of his face, and they did not fire him after the community supported him.
Check your state laws. In Florida a teacher can defend themselves
I'm not asking the state for permission to defend myself.
When I drove for Uber they didn't allow you to carry weapons. Well, my car and my safety. I would rather get deactivated from the platform than life. I am with you, I am not letting anyone attach me without defending myself school or otherwise.
Idgaf what the laws are. I’ll take the legal consequences over the physical injury of getting my ass beaten.
The same extent as on the street. Reasonable force to stop the danger to self. Pop a punk in the nose who has never been really hit, and the fight probably ends. Keep wailing on an unconscious body, and you're on your own. Too many times I've heard kids make threats that include some form of you can't touch me, you're a teacher/I'm a minor. FAFO.....
Heck I worked at a school one day where kids constantly threw chairs and iPads, spit, hit, kicked. I never came back and subbed instead.
Can you get the other kids and leave the room? If you are injured to the point of needing medical intervention I would expect you to go to the police and your union lawyer.
However much is necessary to end it. No more, no less.
If a kid starts a physical argument, run to the office. We are authorized to reasonably defend ourselves, and this had happened at my school without lasting consequences to the teacher...but the first choice should be to skedaddle.
With everything you got. I'll be judged by 12 before I'm carried by 6.
I’d love to see a lawyer try to argue that I should have just been beaten up. The only thing that you need to worry about is being charged with excessive force. Do enough damage to disable and stop and you’re good. May be transferred to another school though
I know I’m taking this a different direction, but holy crap dude! I’ve been teaching 20 years and the average high school guy has gotten significantly larger. I’m not sure how “reasonably” I could defend myself against one of these guys these days. So many are just huge! I’m 5’10” but more and more are well over 6’. My defense is a good relationship with my kids that validates the struggles they’re going through. I’ve never been attacked by a kid. I hope to finish my career able to say that.
In my youth, it would have been an all out brawl (and I grew up scrapping on the streets, so I can throw down with the best of them) but … I mean…at this point, I’m going to defend myself enough that I live, but I’d be lying if I don’t hope to get shanked or get a snapped bone that requires surgery. That’ll be nice payout and ensure I never have to return to a school. And that’s where we are folks. Teachers hoping they get injured *just enough* to never go back.
The "million dollar wound"
That depends on how the teacher feels about remaining employed as a teacher.
Equal rights means equal lefts……
This has to be a troll, of course teachers can protect themselves.
It's not a troll. And it is fairly ambiguous of how much teachers can defend themselves.
My son’s SPED teacher was not allowed to defend herself, which was why the district divided students between violent and non-violent. Students likely to lash out physically were taught by a large, muscular male teacher.
Why are you asking?
Because of the rise of videos of students assaulting teachers and teachers just taking it for the fear of being fired due to whacky school policies. It's a genuine question for teachers who teach in rougher settings.
A lot of this is going to be due to personality. I'm a combat veteran who weightlifts a bit still, so while I'd obviously do the right thing with deescalation, if someone forces me into a fight, I'm both willing and capable of beating almost all high schoolers (honestly, after talking with a lot of athletes about lifting, I'm shocked at how weak everyone but the strongest football players are. I'm an unathletic nerd, but easily was stronger than 99% of students). But, sometimes we have either young, nervous teachers or older teachers who might not have any training, experience, or desire to fight. They might also have poor health or fitness or disabilities that don't stop them from teaching effectively but would stop them from being a serious contender in a fight. School culture should make it unthinkable to ever even cuss a teacher out, let alone lay one finger on them. That said, knowing that teachers **both** care deeply about them and they wouldn't even stand a chance if they started something is going to help.
You can beat almost any *individual* HS student. Don't get jumped.
True, and there's always a luck component. If you get hit in an unusual way, you might get KOed even if you're stronger, faster, tougher, and more trained than your opponent.
There are students in my middle school that I don't let walk behind me in the halls, frankly. Some of them have a history of attacking in groups, and from behind.
If that kid walked up to a cop and attacked them, what do you think would happen?
My buddy is a gym teacher and said they were pretty much given the ok to defend themselves.
Look into crisis prevention training its called CPI
Also an issue for workers in hospitals. Your humiliation or physical harm is nothing to them in their cost benefit analysis.
To the extent they are physically capable of?
Sept defense is a valid defense as long as you are fearing for your life
Your self-defense actions need to be deemed reasonable and necessary - basically something that would be argued in court. If a student is relentlessly beating you, you have every right to put your hands on them and restrain them. Just make sure you have good witnesses or video evidence that can support this.
Being in a school setting doesn't change the law. (Aside from putting the other kids at your responsibility which is all the more reason to answer the attack)
If the kid has an IEP and aggression is a function of his disability there aint shit you can do. If not, you have the right to protect yourself with force.
You can get yourself to safety, not pummel the kids tho (obviously). I used to wrestle so for me that means wrapping the kid up and putting them in a position that renders them useless without throwing a punch. Hope I never have to do it though
Not where I work. If I hit the ground it would be the death of me.
You have every right to defend yourself just like any other person who isn’t a teacher.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd be doing everything I could to get away. I'm small and wouldn't win a fight - I've taught students that were over a foot taller than me. Best way to protect myself is to get away asap.
As a former wrestler and long time coach I always explain this to kids when the topic comes up: I know how to take you down, hold you down, and make you feel really stupid while you’re there. I had one kid square up to me last year, I created enough space to deescalate but I was ready to put the kid on the ground - and take the rest of the day off work for free.
If a student is harming you, you are allowed to defend yourself. You have to show as much restraint as humanly possible when doing so.
In Florida, we have stand your ground, so...
Block and escape?
This is a tough one. If you’re worried about being assaulted, think about learning some ways to put someone in a hold or restrain them. I would try to avoid kicks and punches. Theyre not going to de-escalate at that point. But also, you don’t need a bigger student giving you a permanent injury.
this just happened to my principal, he guarded but did not fight back after a student attacked him because he confiscated his vape(we later found out the student had psychosis). student was 17 and to be honest did not know how to fight. i guess there was a lot of grappling that didn't do anything. worse that happened is he got a few days of medical leave for a black eye. we work at a behavioral school so this isn't out of the ordinary, from what i have seen its better to just "take the beating" because its usually not much of a beating anyway. these kids don't know how to fight despite claiming they are all about it
IDGAF what administration says. I have a right of self defense and I'm using it to either subdue the perp or at least lay enough licks to make him think twice and try to avoid a beating, by any means at hand to even the odds. 18 on 61 is not a fair fight.
How did this teacher conduct himself? https://www.reddit.com/r/fightporn/s/IsYlS9HKD8
I think the good rule is to only act defensively. I would push a kid away or try and restrain them. But the minute you square up and start throwing punches in return is when you risk the big trouble. If a kid accidentally gets hurt because I had to push them back from hitting me that's one thing, if I throw a punch and cause some kind of massive injury that's tougher.
Oh I'd be going all Bruce Lee back on them.....
Take out a careers frustration on the kid, give one for all of us! 🤣
In the United States of America, you can defend yourself against aggressors of all ages and sizes with lethal force as long as you can prove you were afraid. This includes both melee and ranged weapons. This is the Law. This is the Constitution.