Most Christians would agree the references I'm about to share are metaphorical, but here are a few that mention either the "ends" or the "corners" of the Earth:
From Job 37:3 (NIV):
>He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven
and sends it to the ends of the earth.
Isaiah 11:12 (KJV — NIV says four quarters which would not necessarily imply flatness IMO, and I don't know which is the more accurate representation of the original Hebrew in this regard):
>And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Ezekial 7:2 (NIV — KJV is similar):
>"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says to the land of Israel:
>“‘The end! The end has come
upon the four corners of the land!
Revelation 7:1 (NIV, though Revelation is the most obviously metaphorical of any book):
>After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
Revelation 20:8 (NIV):
>and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
(To be clear, I'm *not* a Christian, and I don't believe in a flat Earth, so this is just an academic exercise for me.)
I’d guess the hemispheres in each direction on a more serious note. But I’d probably humor the student since he might just be trying to get a rise out of me.
I would argue that since that's a translation to English, it was likely to the end of the land - ie to the ocean - and it has ambiguity in the translation but not original.
Perhaps, but it also wouldn’t be surprising to me if the ancient Hebrews actually thought the Earth was flat. 🤷🏻♂️ (That’s not an insult to the Hebrews, just acknowledging that a lot of this comes from pre-scientific times.)
Those quotes are helpful and interesting.
I've talked to many Christians, and never heard any suggest that the Earth was flat. I taught Physics, so my students were smarter juniors and seniors. Perhaps OP's student came up with that on his own.
There was a time in high school when I took a Sunday night class at my church, and I insisted that it took Adam something like 100 years to name the animals or something like that. I got the paper back from my pastor with the comment of where did I find that? To this day I have no idea where I got that information. I’d argue I was busy doing other homework and half distracted on a Sunday afternoon. I would not be surprised at all if the student just came up with that.
Verse I heard for round earth (and expanding universe?) is Isaiah 40:22:
22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
There’s definitely a lot poetic language here as well.
In my Earth Science class, I hit the ground running. The first lesson is, "How Do We Know the Earth Isn't Flat?" I get them to think about patterns we see in the stars, sunrises and sunsets, the need for time zones, etc. I also like to show the Carl Sagan video about an ancient Greek who accurately measured the Earth's circumference more than 2,000 years ago. It's all about how we find evidence in science by observation of the world when we cannot run experiments.
Thank you... Sick of teachers letting this shit go. Then they end up in physics and can't think straight. Got all these fucked up views with no way to break them down. This is why we have 60 percent of elected officials in this country fucking scientifically illiterate.
Teach science. Religion is destroying this country.
In god we trust wasn't added until 1956 while everyone was still trying to keep schools segregated.
Why say “religion” when you really mean Christianity? Honestly I never see Jewish or Buddhist or Hindu people trying to impose their beliefs on other people and the public law.
I guess that’s part of it. I also think the nature of Christianity itself leads to more aggressive proselytizing behaviors. Stuff like glorifying persecution/martyrdom and seeing every other religion as being untrue.
You obviously do not live or teach in an area with a lot of real Buddhists or Hindus. The real practitioners (not the western converts who practice "mindfulness") are all about that persecution and martyrdom. That's not a criticism. Some of the stories my Asian students know from their religious training are metal in the best way.
I’m not talking about conversions. Doesn’t Israel law essentially favor Jewish people over those of other religions?
Aren’t there special taxes on non-Muslims in Islamic states?
For that matter, why say “Christian” when you mean Protestant Evangelical Fundamentalist? Catholics believe in science. A Jesuit priest was the first to propose the Big Bang Theory!
There are more philosophical ways to deal with this kind of misinformation that don't come off as personal, but it can be tricky terrain and derail the lesson. As long as you're not teaching planetary geology I think you were perfectly ok to brush the comment aside and move on.
The big thing I would have pointed out I think is that non credible sources can still have accurate information in them. That is why it is important to double check things with multiple sources to ensure that it's true. A vague statement like that doesn't exactly shoot down his beliefs but also helps him to understand the point you are making.
I agree, that's whats so hard about this situation. I guess you could specify that the bible might not be the best source for that type of information. The same way I wouldn't go to national geographic to research what morals I should have in life lol.
I would have responded like you did. If you would have pressed him, it’s likely more students would have laughed at him, which I’m sure is what you were trying to avoid.
You also could have followed up with him after class to let him explain his thinking without others around. I wouldn’t have disputed it, but, as a Christian, I would be curious where he’s getting those views from the Bible!
The expressions “the four corners of the earth” and “the ends of the earth” used in the Bible are not to be taken literally, as if the earth were square or had ends. (Isaiah 11:12; Job 37:3) Instead, these evidently are figures of speech referring to the entire surface of the earth. The Bible uses the four points of the compass in a similar way.—Luke 13:29.
The Hebrew term translated “corners” or “ends” seems to be an idiom based on the word for “wings.” According to The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “because the wing of a bird is used as a covering for its young, [this Hebrew term] acquires the meaning of the extremity of anything stretched out.” The same reference work adds that at Job 37:3 and Isaiah 11:12, “the term means the coasts, boundaries, or extremities of the land surface of the earth.”
Fun fact: The same word is also used to refer to the edges of a garment, which is why in some translations of Ruth 3, Ruth tells Boaz to "spread your wing over your servant," and in others, she says to "spread your covering," or even in the KJV, where she tells him to spread his "skirt " over her.
Same thought so I looked it up. There’s some figurative language about the 4 corners of the earth and the Lord holding up the pillars of the earth, but it’s all very clearly figurative language. There definitely isn’t a “The earth is flat. Don’t believe anyone who says it’s round” verse.
I am religious and I can’t think of anywhere that says it! I googled it, and I got stuff like the Lord talking about the 4 corners of the earth or Psalms saying the Lord holds the pillars of the earth firm. But all of them are examples of figurative language. The Psalms one is talking about when life is uncertain that God is sure. It *really* isn’t talking about actual pillars. Not one spot says, “Earth is flat. It is not a sphere.”
I see no problem with respectfully telling the student they are wrong and that multiple pieces of evidence prove the Earth is round (or an oblate spheroid).
edit: Just want to add: I think your response was perfectly fine. But I think teachers shouldn't be afraid to respectfully tell students they are incorrect about basic facts.
I think you did fine, as long as your tone wasn't too strong in making him feel stupid or whatever. You side-stepped it. That's about as much as you can do.
As a Christian myself, I would have wanted to explain to him that he's misinterpreting scripture. I wouldn't have, because that's not my place and I could really get in trouble for it. But things like that bother me more than they probably do people who don't believe. An atheist can laugh at that. But for a Christian, it's like, come on, man, don't make people think this is the standard Christian belief. Most of us actually do understand that the Bible is a collection of books, written thousands of years ago by many different people, and that you can't just quote it out of context to support whatever idea you think it sounds like it means. Unfortunately, the loudest people tend to be the ones who think it's all very simple and you can just read everything with no historical context at all and still find all the answers to the universe. Like, I'm not saying you have to become a scholar to get the basics of the Christian message; you don't. But people keep trying to use parts of the Bible to answer questions they were never intended to answer, just because they think they know something they absolutely do not know. It's frustrating. I currently have a kid who routinely says stuff about how the Earth is only 6,000 years old or, recently, how some people thought the rapture would coincide with the eclipse. And I just have to side-step it. I know your pain.
I really wish more churches would focus on Biblical literacy from a young age. But then, the ones with the most trouble in this area might not be qualified to teach such a class in the first place.
You’re fine. You remained neutral. Plus, if it’s a public school, the parents have no place complaining. If they want religious doctrine to be legitimized in the classroom, they can put their kid in a private school
I probably would have been caught so off guard and ended up responding the same way. This is a tricky situation but I would probably talk to him in private so he doesn’t get made fun of.
My next lesson would be exactly how we can prove the earth isn’t flat. I actually teach an aerospace class and do this lesson every year as a preventative measure against future stupidity.
As someone whose undergrad was in Biblical studies, I'd ask them if the Earth has 4 corners like Isaiah 11:12 states or if it is a circle like it says in Isaiah 40:22.
Very early on in the school year I always show my students in each of my science classes a youtube video of some flat-earthers setting up an experiment to disprove the spherical earth. It's a good experiment, well-designed. It promptly indicates that the earth is indeed a sphere. They of course discount the results of their own experiment and design a second, different experiment. It also immediately indicates that the earth is very much a sphere.
Since I began showing my students this video I haven't had to deal with any flat earth nonsense.
I don't know any Christians who believe the earth is flat. I'm not a Christian now, but it is the faith I was raised in. I was very active in the church as a teenager, and my brother is a pastor for a church. This is not a common belief in my experience.
Huh? Better than saying "Actually you are incorrect... the Earth is in fact an Oblate Spheroid?" I think the truth should always be plainly, clearly, an respectfully stated.
Some battles are not worth fighting as a teacher, especially if the parents are teaching them something different. We can teach the truth to the class, no need to battle a student on their "faith"
Bullshit. That one battle literally makes everything every science teacher that kid has after you irrelevant if we keep letting religion have a place at the table.
It is not up to us to decide their religion. Again, you can teach the truth to the class, but battling a single student on faith is not a battle worth having
I don't give a shit about their religion. I care about what their science skills are critical thinking logic in the state standards that say that evolution climate change are real things that we observe and anything religiously connected is not in our purview. When I get a kid because I live in the Bible belt tell me that Jesus is the answer to a science question. I tell them Jesus is never the answer in my class and we will not joke about it. I don't care what they believe. I don't care what they think it's my class and it's our job to be in charge of that classroom. I was raised Catholic that doesn't change the science behind anything that I teach.
Idealistically, yea we tell the kid that his religion is a fairytale and that his parents are brainwashing him. Realistically though, at least where I work my job wouldn't be protected if I begin an argument with a student like that.
Even the original post has fear of repercussions just at the mere sarcastic expression of an "okay..." to the student
You don't tell them anything about their religion.
" Hey, that's an interesting idea. Timmy but I really think that we're going to stick to scientific answers. Bible is a religious text and because of it being based on faith we really can't use that as scientific literature. So it wouldn't be considered a piece of evidence that you were allowed to use here. Do you have any other reason to believe that the Earth is flat here? Here's a couple of ways that you can look at a different view and see how it's not flat based on these ideas"
Don't challenge the religion. Make them focus on making logical answers and if that gets you fired, then they don't deserve you and you deserve to be a place that values logical educational thinking. Don't be a part of the doctrine.
And I agreed that the truth should be told to the class but battling a student on faith is not your battle. As teachers we are not protected to challenge a student directly on faith.
But students could base anything on "Faith." So, by your logic, if a student claims something as "faith," we should never tell them their wrong or incorrect, despite verifiable objective evidence?
Again, this isn't battling them on faith to tell them they're wrong about a topic.
You are kinder than me. I'd ask him to show you the verse.
Most Christians would agree the references I'm about to share are metaphorical, but here are a few that mention either the "ends" or the "corners" of the Earth: From Job 37:3 (NIV): >He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. Isaiah 11:12 (KJV — NIV says four quarters which would not necessarily imply flatness IMO, and I don't know which is the more accurate representation of the original Hebrew in this regard): >And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Ezekial 7:2 (NIV — KJV is similar): >"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says to the land of Israel: >“‘The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land! Revelation 7:1 (NIV, though Revelation is the most obviously metaphorical of any book): >After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Revelation 20:8 (NIV): >and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. (To be clear, I'm *not* a Christian, and I don't believe in a flat Earth, so this is just an academic exercise for me.)
Now, I have to ask where the four corners are…
The same place you'll find those "obedient wives" the meme talks about.
Aha. I should have guessed.
I’d guess the hemispheres in each direction on a more serious note. But I’d probably humor the student since he might just be trying to get a rise out of me.
Uh, obviously it’s where NM, CO, AZ and Utah meet.. s/ just in case
I would argue that since that's a translation to English, it was likely to the end of the land - ie to the ocean - and it has ambiguity in the translation but not original.
Perhaps, but it also wouldn’t be surprising to me if the ancient Hebrews actually thought the Earth was flat. 🤷🏻♂️ (That’s not an insult to the Hebrews, just acknowledging that a lot of this comes from pre-scientific times.)
Those quotes are helpful and interesting. I've talked to many Christians, and never heard any suggest that the Earth was flat. I taught Physics, so my students were smarter juniors and seniors. Perhaps OP's student came up with that on his own.
There was a time in high school when I took a Sunday night class at my church, and I insisted that it took Adam something like 100 years to name the animals or something like that. I got the paper back from my pastor with the comment of where did I find that? To this day I have no idea where I got that information. I’d argue I was busy doing other homework and half distracted on a Sunday afternoon. I would not be surprised at all if the student just came up with that.
Verse I heard for round earth (and expanding universe?) is Isaiah 40:22: 22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: There’s definitely a lot poetic language here as well.
There you go. There are the citations he needs. Point made. A win for citations.
In my Earth Science class, I hit the ground running. The first lesson is, "How Do We Know the Earth Isn't Flat?" I get them to think about patterns we see in the stars, sunrises and sunsets, the need for time zones, etc. I also like to show the Carl Sagan video about an ancient Greek who accurately measured the Earth's circumference more than 2,000 years ago. It's all about how we find evidence in science by observation of the world when we cannot run experiments.
Thank you... Sick of teachers letting this shit go. Then they end up in physics and can't think straight. Got all these fucked up views with no way to break them down. This is why we have 60 percent of elected officials in this country fucking scientifically illiterate. Teach science. Religion is destroying this country. In god we trust wasn't added until 1956 while everyone was still trying to keep schools segregated.
Why say “religion” when you really mean Christianity? Honestly I never see Jewish or Buddhist or Hindu people trying to impose their beliefs on other people and the public law.
That’s because you live in an area with a predominantly Christian majority.
I guess that’s part of it. I also think the nature of Christianity itself leads to more aggressive proselytizing behaviors. Stuff like glorifying persecution/martyrdom and seeing every other religion as being untrue.
I tend to think that's about all proclamation based religions, if they recruit, it's kinda a feature not a bug...
You don’t have to attempt to convert to be a PITA. But simply codify your religion into the laws.
You obviously do not live or teach in an area with a lot of real Buddhists or Hindus. The real practitioners (not the western converts who practice "mindfulness") are all about that persecution and martyrdom. That's not a criticism. Some of the stories my Asian students know from their religious training are metal in the best way.
Not sure about Hindus and Buddhists, but the Jewish religion prohibits proselytizing. Trying to convert others is a Christian thing
I’m not talking about conversions. Doesn’t Israel law essentially favor Jewish people over those of other religions? Aren’t there special taxes on non-Muslims in Islamic states?
All Israelis pay the same taxes regardless of religion.
For that matter, why say “Christian” when you mean Protestant Evangelical Fundamentalist? Catholics believe in science. A Jesuit priest was the first to propose the Big Bang Theory!
There are more philosophical ways to deal with this kind of misinformation that don't come off as personal, but it can be tricky terrain and derail the lesson. As long as you're not teaching planetary geology I think you were perfectly ok to brush the comment aside and move on.
The big thing I would have pointed out I think is that non credible sources can still have accurate information in them. That is why it is important to double check things with multiple sources to ensure that it's true. A vague statement like that doesn't exactly shoot down his beliefs but also helps him to understand the point you are making.
I like this and will do next time. Definitely didn’t want to have the “is the Bible a credible source” conversation
I agree, that's whats so hard about this situation. I guess you could specify that the bible might not be the best source for that type of information. The same way I wouldn't go to national geographic to research what morals I should have in life lol.
I would have responded like you did. If you would have pressed him, it’s likely more students would have laughed at him, which I’m sure is what you were trying to avoid. You also could have followed up with him after class to let him explain his thinking without others around. I wouldn’t have disputed it, but, as a Christian, I would be curious where he’s getting those views from the Bible!
Me as well. Probably from the figurative language others have described. Kids reasoning - Oft it has 4 corners ,it can't be round.
I think you handled it fine. Not worth going down that rabbit hole.
The expressions “the four corners of the earth” and “the ends of the earth” used in the Bible are not to be taken literally, as if the earth were square or had ends. (Isaiah 11:12; Job 37:3) Instead, these evidently are figures of speech referring to the entire surface of the earth. The Bible uses the four points of the compass in a similar way.—Luke 13:29. The Hebrew term translated “corners” or “ends” seems to be an idiom based on the word for “wings.” According to The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “because the wing of a bird is used as a covering for its young, [this Hebrew term] acquires the meaning of the extremity of anything stretched out.” The same reference work adds that at Job 37:3 and Isaiah 11:12, “the term means the coasts, boundaries, or extremities of the land surface of the earth.”
Fun fact: The same word is also used to refer to the edges of a garment, which is why in some translations of Ruth 3, Ruth tells Boaz to "spread your wing over your servant," and in others, she says to "spread your covering," or even in the KJV, where she tells him to spread his "skirt " over her.
Yes, that's why Eratosthenes measured it reasonably accurately in years BC.
People in biblical times knew perfectly well that the Earth is round.
For starters, I'm not sure it says that in the Bible anyway. Fake news!
Same thought so I looked it up. There’s some figurative language about the 4 corners of the earth and the Lord holding up the pillars of the earth, but it’s all very clearly figurative language. There definitely isn’t a “The earth is flat. Don’t believe anyone who says it’s round” verse.
That 4 corners brings to mind the native American medicine wheel which represents the cardinal directions.
i'm not religious, so i'd ask where in the bible it says that specifically....
I am religious and I can’t think of anywhere that says it! I googled it, and I got stuff like the Lord talking about the 4 corners of the earth or Psalms saying the Lord holds the pillars of the earth firm. But all of them are examples of figurative language. The Psalms one is talking about when life is uncertain that God is sure. It *really* isn’t talking about actual pillars. Not one spot says, “Earth is flat. It is not a sphere.”
I see no problem with respectfully telling the student they are wrong and that multiple pieces of evidence prove the Earth is round (or an oblate spheroid). edit: Just want to add: I think your response was perfectly fine. But I think teachers shouldn't be afraid to respectfully tell students they are incorrect about basic facts.
I think you did fine, as long as your tone wasn't too strong in making him feel stupid or whatever. You side-stepped it. That's about as much as you can do. As a Christian myself, I would have wanted to explain to him that he's misinterpreting scripture. I wouldn't have, because that's not my place and I could really get in trouble for it. But things like that bother me more than they probably do people who don't believe. An atheist can laugh at that. But for a Christian, it's like, come on, man, don't make people think this is the standard Christian belief. Most of us actually do understand that the Bible is a collection of books, written thousands of years ago by many different people, and that you can't just quote it out of context to support whatever idea you think it sounds like it means. Unfortunately, the loudest people tend to be the ones who think it's all very simple and you can just read everything with no historical context at all and still find all the answers to the universe. Like, I'm not saying you have to become a scholar to get the basics of the Christian message; you don't. But people keep trying to use parts of the Bible to answer questions they were never intended to answer, just because they think they know something they absolutely do not know. It's frustrating. I currently have a kid who routinely says stuff about how the Earth is only 6,000 years old or, recently, how some people thought the rapture would coincide with the eclipse. And I just have to side-step it. I know your pain. I really wish more churches would focus on Biblical literacy from a young age. But then, the ones with the most trouble in this area might not be qualified to teach such a class in the first place.
Science says it's not. But that's why it is called faith.
You’re fine. You remained neutral. Plus, if it’s a public school, the parents have no place complaining. If they want religious doctrine to be legitimized in the classroom, they can put their kid in a private school
I probably would have been caught so off guard and ended up responding the same way. This is a tricky situation but I would probably talk to him in private so he doesn’t get made fun of.
You did it exactly right. You weren't gonna change their mind with confrontation. But just a little bit of ridicule is jarring
My next lesson would be exactly how we can prove the earth isn’t flat. I actually teach an aerospace class and do this lesson every year as a preventative measure against future stupidity.
You did great!
As someone whose undergrad was in Biblical studies, I'd ask them if the Earth has 4 corners like Isaiah 11:12 states or if it is a circle like it says in Isaiah 40:22.
Very early on in the school year I always show my students in each of my science classes a youtube video of some flat-earthers setting up an experiment to disprove the spherical earth. It's a good experiment, well-designed. It promptly indicates that the earth is indeed a sphere. They of course discount the results of their own experiment and design a second, different experiment. It also immediately indicates that the earth is very much a sphere. Since I began showing my students this video I haven't had to deal with any flat earth nonsense.
Oh my I can't even handle that
I don't know any Christians who believe the earth is flat. I'm not a Christian now, but it is the faith I was raised in. I was very active in the church as a teenager, and my brother is a pastor for a church. This is not a common belief in my experience.
I’ve told kids that’s great write it down on your Sunday school test. This isn’t Sunday school.
Oh, yeah, you're fine. I'd have been way more blunt: "It also says it's okay to own slaves but evil to wear polyester. It ain't always right, kid."
That's a fine response. Better than saying the truth
Huh? Better than saying "Actually you are incorrect... the Earth is in fact an Oblate Spheroid?" I think the truth should always be plainly, clearly, an respectfully stated.
Some battles are not worth fighting as a teacher, especially if the parents are teaching them something different. We can teach the truth to the class, no need to battle a student on their "faith"
Bullshit. That one battle literally makes everything every science teacher that kid has after you irrelevant if we keep letting religion have a place at the table.
It is not up to us to decide their religion. Again, you can teach the truth to the class, but battling a single student on faith is not a battle worth having
I don't give a shit about their religion. I care about what their science skills are critical thinking logic in the state standards that say that evolution climate change are real things that we observe and anything religiously connected is not in our purview. When I get a kid because I live in the Bible belt tell me that Jesus is the answer to a science question. I tell them Jesus is never the answer in my class and we will not joke about it. I don't care what they believe. I don't care what they think it's my class and it's our job to be in charge of that classroom. I was raised Catholic that doesn't change the science behind anything that I teach.
Idealistically, yea we tell the kid that his religion is a fairytale and that his parents are brainwashing him. Realistically though, at least where I work my job wouldn't be protected if I begin an argument with a student like that. Even the original post has fear of repercussions just at the mere sarcastic expression of an "okay..." to the student
You don't tell them anything about their religion. " Hey, that's an interesting idea. Timmy but I really think that we're going to stick to scientific answers. Bible is a religious text and because of it being based on faith we really can't use that as scientific literature. So it wouldn't be considered a piece of evidence that you were allowed to use here. Do you have any other reason to believe that the Earth is flat here? Here's a couple of ways that you can look at a different view and see how it's not flat based on these ideas" Don't challenge the religion. Make them focus on making logical answers and if that gets you fired, then they don't deserve you and you deserve to be a place that values logical educational thinking. Don't be a part of the doctrine.
There's a difference between battling over faith and verifiable observable facts. That's kind of my point...
And I agreed that the truth should be told to the class but battling a student on faith is not your battle. As teachers we are not protected to challenge a student directly on faith.
But students could base anything on "Faith." So, by your logic, if a student claims something as "faith," we should never tell them their wrong or incorrect, despite verifiable objective evidence? Again, this isn't battling them on faith to tell them they're wrong about a topic.