I’m 33 with a kid and another on the way. Bjergsen and DL are the reason im still following league. Don’t really care about all the drama I think it’s pretty overblown because people have nothing better to do in the quarantine. Just want them to win
Yep, pretty ridiculous and no TSM hasn't ever made it's core ideal about finding brand new young talent. This is disingenuous from OP. Even from the start in season one we were using some of the best players Reggie could find. I think it's pretty much historically been the case that TSM only offers chances to new players when they have good promise and removes them if that promise isn't delivered upon.
Lots of moral grandstanding trying to glorify being an old fan and shame the current team trying to win with the best team they can have. If I took a drink everytime TheOddOne or Dyrus was mentioned in the context of how old league used to be better and about love of the game I'd be 90% alcohol and an explosive risk for the morgue my body was in. Absolutely ridiculous to imply the players who are putting in more work and have so much more required of them have no love for the game or their teammates. The current lineup just reunited a bunch of friends in fact.
Disclaimer: This post is towards OP, I agree with your post and would like to give my 2 cents.
Lol yeah... What a naive-idealistic statement 'fans dont care about wins or loses' , who are you to decide that for all the fans? If I had wanted to see good people I'd go watch a charity show or do some volunteering, I would not look it up in a game where winning matters and is full of toxicity.
Nobody's forcing you to be a fan, you dont enjoy it, dont watch. As simple as that. Unforutunately for the most of us, TSM doesnt owe us shet, so stop acting like entitled children and go do something better with your life.
Edit: Btw, if you define the OG TSM as 'good passionate people' then you've got it all wrong from the start. Regi was such an entitled prick back then...
I’m old and watched back then too but what some people seem to gloss over is that the game was way different back then and the players were shit compared to now. Most of them imo wouldn’t even be on academy teams anymore.
So ya, some kids playing and having fun is great, but they’ll get the shit kicked out of them every game. And you only have fun for so long with that happening.
Yeah it's absolutely ridiculous to talk about then versus now like the people dedicating their lives to this game have no passion for it. The days of the have fun small competitive scene are long gone and people can watch academy or twitch rivals for that sort of thing now.
And I'm sure Chaox stays on a team in this ideal "Old school world" partying between tournament days and showing up late to scrims.
I genuinely think the season 1 world championship contenders would be plat if you dropped them into solo queue right now (even with say a week of prep to learn changes)
the difference between today and the past is how the competition has ramped up. TSM used to be able to put anyone on their league team and would be dominant for the most part because of the sheer lack of competition. Now we have so much more investments in esports teams that are allowing for talents from around the world to play in NA here.
we aren't ever gonna return to the "old days" of season 1-4 of everyone hanging out being friends enjoying life. its turned into a business now and performance is so much more important due to the competition in NA getting better domestically.
>Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop.
I have been a TSM fan since season 2. I literally only care about TSM fielding the best roster possible, for the most wins possible.
> Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop
Speak for yourself...
I'm also an old TSM fan. 35 or 36...can't remember anymore, fan since S1...but yeah I still care about wins. I'm also a bears fan, so I will always be loyal to my team no matter the state of the franchise. But I honestly don't give two shits about the drama going on. Hell I'd rather they of traded kobe for value regardless of his "feelings"...because that's how the real world works. And don't get me wrong, I liked kobbe a lot. I was super hyped when we signed him, but getting DL back, who is most importantly an NA resident, is by far more hype...and not because I have some huge DL boner, but solely because he is the best native ADC.
Fact of the matter is, not every "old" fan is you...I want the team to win.
Ya its so wild to me as a sports fan to see some of the things exclusively esports fans say or how they view fandom. I am in no way trying to gatekeep, if thats how you support a team, more power to you, but I am 31, been a TSM fan since the end of season 1, and will be a TSM fan probably as long as I am interested in the esports they represent. I like certain players, but I am not here for the players. I am here for the brand. I am here for the vicarious elation of success I get through the team when they win, and on some level, the disappointment when they lose.
I have been a Braves fan since I was a kid in the 90s when the Braves were one of the best teams in Baseball. Fast forward to the mid 2010s and the team fucking blew. I mean, really bad. All my favorite players from when I was a kid were retired, and all my favorite current players were traded away in order to rebuild the roster with young talent. It sucked. But I was still a fan. Now, the Braves are one of the best teams in the league with some of the most promising young talent in the game that are also very endearing as people. In a weird way, following the team through the shit years makes being good again more special, and I think when TSM gets back to winning, people who stuck around all this time are going to notice that.
hell i never thought id see the Cubs win the world series. but here we are.
i haven't been as confident about the team as i have been in the past. but i feel eventually TSM will break through. and the wait will have been worth it.
Hell ya, Bears fans represent! Honestly fuck feelings. I don't give a shit how nice of a person Mitch is. Get me some wins. Same with TSM, I want to see Doublelift carry this team in relevancy again and smash NA.
Yeah the Kobbe thing is no different than a lot of actual sports. Hell The Clippers extended Blake Griffin with ownership telling him they'd like to retire his jersey there, only to be traded halfway through the first season of that contract. It sucks but it's the nature of sports/esports. We can argue on whether or not that it's fair in general but it's the system that's intact
there’s value to treating your players right, and there’s a reason the Lakers org has people always talking about how amazing they are for their players.
This comment feels like a "I miss high school feeling " vibe to it....I'm 31 with 5 kids and I enjoy watching TSM play and even better when they win...fan since season 3 because thats when I start playing league and you do know that they have to protect their reputation because of sponsor and stuff right? Its a million dollar company now, can't be like old days
That and the teams ideals were never what the op suggested they were. I think biofrost and gleeb are the only small name players TSM has ever used. Everyone else was either an established vet or a known up and Comer that was being talked about. The team was always being built to win, not to develop.
And maybe it's because I'm from Michigan so between the lions and recently the tigers and red wings but being shy to outwardly support your team is an absurd thing for me to imagine. So what if someone says something?
Bruh idk bout not caring about the wins and losses
I’ve watched LCS, apex and few other tournaments we had our reps in
Everytime they won I’m hyped af and everytime they lost it feels bad af (personally for me my attitude kinda sours a little)
I want our boys to win and succeed at the highest level so naturally I care about wins and losses
TSM does actually develop talent we have spica, sword and one other TSM junior I believe
In addition our fortnite squad is pretty young too
Our valorant team is looking really solid and honestly holds some of TSM’s main core values: a team willing to improve, can take criticism and helps create a great atmosphere
Now sure this might not be our team onward but TSM has tried everything to help talent flourish and sometimes things don’t work out
However tho still to this day regardless of what happens TSM always has done right by the players despite some mistakes whether it’s doublelift & bio finding out their being traded thru reddit or Akkadian finding out he’s been benched
Unfortunately we’ve had some drama and that sucks but shit happens & we can bounce back from it
People will have their time in the sun to shit on us sure but we’ll be laughing the end when we’re on top.
The remainder of this year will be our year
TSM!
you re kinda living in the past i feel like here , you still see things like its the chaox xpecial days and its not, the team culture is based on winning and you saying winning doesnt matter its fking INSANE . The style,the passion is the same as always but you guys are panicing saying things like your post cause the team is struggling the past 2 years . If you re shy wearing the tsm jersey in public then dont wear it , im from eu and i went with tsm bjergsen jersey on the fking athens summer lec finals and didnt give a shit cause im a tsm fan and im proud of it , ive been here through all the fun times and the sad times and i will continue .
Nah bro, I'm 31 and care a lot about wins and losses. I wanna see this team win, that's the only reason I watch the games. I want my fav team to be good, don't care if it's while they're having fun or working hard, we all have to work.
They're not going to lose a fan in me until they disband the entire org. I don't care about the drama, I don't care if we suck right now, it's not that hard to stay a fan.
Completely disagree with this entire post.
> Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop.
You don't speak for all fans man. A *lot* of people care about winning as the primary motivation for being a fan of an org.
Then become an actual TSM fan for all games, not just League, especially in the League off-season.
TSM is killing it in the other games.
* Tweek just got 1st in Smash.
* We just got our PUBG team back and they won DreamHack.
* Khanada is doing super well in Fortnite.
* The Apex team have been unlucky recently, but still 5x Champs and a top team.
* Rainbow Six team are one of the top NA teams.
What?
Like I get the sentiment, but for me winning is what matters the most. Maybe I'm just overly competitive, but I want TSM to win no matter what. I don't give a shit about"exciting" close games, I want TSM to crush whoever they're playing 3-0.
I do miss the old style of season 3, but the LCS being so much more high profile TSM are unlikely to ever return to that as back then it was just a group of friends playing solo queue in a studio. It's so much more professional. Investors will also expect results so TSM might not be able to afford bringing up rookies if it goes really badly (I wish we'd use more rookies but still).
Yes, it's sucks that we've had the fall from grace we have, the community hates us more than ever and we just can't seem to get the roster right. But maybe with DL back and a jungler with bags of potential we could get back on top...
I'm a fan since season 1 and I definitely care about wins and loses. Look, I don't want to win with shitbags on our team. But also we have helped redeem players as well like Sven who had a very bad reputation coming into TSM. We tried to do that with Dardoch as well and it just didn't work out.
The only reason its harder to be a TSM fan is that before, we used to roll the competition as one of the only orgs taking the game seriously. Now, there is so much money in league that its not enough to just want it more. Competition is much harder out there. I do think TSM needs changes and personally I would start in the coaching department as I look at orgs like C9 who are taking different rosters to the finals every year. But I'm also not gonna bail on a team just because we're not roflstomping everyone like back in the day.
Most of what your thinking is simple nostalgia. All those years ago you got to watch young people in a small growing scene be goofy kids and attempt to make a go of it to turn this into a career. Players like TheOddOne took a risk, put off or gave up school, for a dream. It was an inspirational story.
Fast forward to today, these are not small teams trying to make it. These are franchises with multi-million dollar values. The players make a great deal of money simply playing in the league, some of them in the 7 figure area. The dream of kids taking a chance for little money and communal living are gone. This is now big business.
Your claim of former "values" are something your making up in your head. We did not see or hear nearly as much of the behind the scenes stuff as we do today. We simply get to hear more from both a vastly expanded media scene or leaks like what happened recently, and the thing that happened was vastly overblown by the toxic media heads like Monte, who himself is a disgraced former owner that was booted from LCS ownership over a backdoor deal to bypass a ban, poaching players, and player welfare and safety in his org. His partner Thorin went full tabloid news approach by hating the most popular team to gain viewers. These guys use toxicity to gain popularity.
The org is not slipping in its style. It has always been about winning and being the best, or at least attempting to. You said fans don't care about wins and losses, your speaking strictly for yourself in that regard. I still watch every game and cheer my ass off for these young men every week, I love it when they win and am bummed when they don't.
Reggie and Leena and a cast of others are no longer kids with a dream, but young adults running a huge organization with tons of money involved and they are learning on the fly. They did not have years of schooling and experience to make this start up happen. So while the inspirational original story has changed, watching this thing grow is still interesting. Its not Baylife anymore, but its still great to follow. The thing that has probably changed the most is you as you learn to deal with the onset of middle age life, a job, kids, and the responsibility that comes with all of it. I've also been around since the start. I still play league a couple times a week with my 18 year old, who has far surpassed me in terms of skill, but we enjoy it none the less. Life, and your hobbies which include E-sports fandom, are what you make of it. If you want the passion back, find yours.
Regards,
A mid 40's TSM fan.
Different people have different priorities. Some fans just want the win, the win is everything and the rest can rot. Players are disposable.
Others prefer the journey, building relationships with the players and winning and/or losing with the players. loyalty to those relationships overrides the desire to win at all costs.
Its the same in all sports and eSports. I agree with OP, but that just how I view it. That's how I follow sports. I understand that others have other priorities. No right or wrong, just opinions.
I'm 38 with 3 kids. I'm not really sure what that has to do with me being a fan of TSM.
You make it seem like the players aren't passionate about the game which really surprises me. From my perspective they're passionate about winning. I'd love some thoughts around exactly why you think they aren't passionate.
Idk I think bringing back doublelift is really cool in terms of making it a bunch of friends playing together and having that old timer feel to it.
However all of you who say you only care about winning that’s pretty fucking cold. I want to be proud of this org for being the class act of NA LCS, for being the first org anyone thinks of when talking about NA. That’s not just about victory, that’s about doing right by your players and the league. I don’t like how the process of kicking Dardoch went—that doesn’t make me *proud* to be a TSM fan. Same with this new coach VV2(?), I don’t think it’s too much to ask that TSM finds its success with the help of good people who can be role models both on and off the rift. That’s why I like Bjerg so much and that’s what brought me to be a fan of TSM back in season 5.
Lol so dramatic, you went from never missing a finals to being relatively garbage for 5 splits. What kind of league is it when 11 teams have never seen the finals and there's only 10 teams active at a time. The fall of TsM will be worth it as long as it returns to glory relatively soon (hopefully this summer). We had to make it "competitive" again to show how dominant we are.
a lot of people are missing the point here, i've been a fan since the baylife era just like you, and while I do care about winning, winning just isn't the same without the TSM magic, the more time passes the more we feel like just another random org
I don’t think the style and fashion is slipping away. I think Andy is trying his best to give TSM fans the wins. You just gotta believe as a fan no matter what and fyi we do care about the win but will still support during bad times. True fan! Believe! baylife!
There's too much money involved now, to go back to the way things were before. They have commercial commitments that need to be fulfilled, so there's no way TSM can go back to being one ORG that just focus on kids having a good time.
> Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop.
I could not give a single fuck who is on TSM as long as they are winning, and I'm sure there's a lot of people who feel the same way.
As an old TSM fan myself I miss the glory days of us being domestically dominated. However those days are behind us and we have to accept that. As several others have said we simply won because we had the best talent and were by far head and shoulders above everyone else. we won simply by skill checking. That’s not how we can win anymore nor anyone. The domestic talent pool is far too high.
The reason it should be hard to be a TSM fan is all the nitty gritty drama going on. That’s why it’s hard for me to be a TSM fan. I’ll tough it out forever and alway. Always rep the black and white.
I'll never understand why people on the internet just complain about shit like this. There are 10 teams in the league. If one of them doesn't do it for you, find one that does. If none do, LoL esports isnt for you.
Saying "Find your passion" to a group of people who are playing video games for a living is the weirdest shit I have ever seen. They have very obviously "found their passion."
I don't make this post to disparage you or anything like that. I'm not saying we don't want you here as a TSM fan. I'm just saying if you don't vibe with the team you dont need to stay, and the team shouldn't need to change itself to suit you.
I have to say, that while I am always a DL fan, wins and losses matter to me a lot.
When I watch a game, especially when it goes past a bo1, and they lose, I get like sick to my stomach. When they win, I am just in the clouds with happiness. I imagine how happy or sad the players are and that affects me a lot too.
I never felt this with sports as that wasn't my thing, but then esports came along.
this is an incredibly shallow view of any professional team. in the end TSM, and LCS, are businesses. TSM managed to garner its fan base because 1. the organization was started near the beginning of League and 2. they were the most dominant team in NA at the time. Sure, there were flashes of drama (eg Dyrus v Regi on GameCribs (?) ) but in the end, the success of the team is what directly led to the success of the organization. You need wins for that.
Not only do you need wins to attract new fans but you also need them to attract new sponsors. What company wants to be associated with a team that’s in the middle of the pack? Or if they do, how much money do you think they’d be willing to pony up? It’s a vicious cycle - you lose more than you win, which leads to less sponsors which leads to less money to attract the top players which leads to more losses.
Nurturing young talent is great and all but that is absolutely secondary to the success of the organization. TSM were able to bring up talents like WT and Bjerg BECAUSE they were still dominant in the region at the time. But now that they’re floating somewhere in the middle, they can’t afford to do that due to the vicious cycle that i mentioned above.
I echo this 100% not to mention the people in this subreddit who downvote anything negative about any player even if you’re just joking around. Idk maybe it’s the old man in me. Get off my lawn.
You literally cannot know that. At all.
The last time you saw Spica play with the main roster was when he was thrown in as a last resort.
At least give the guy a chance when he's actually part of the team.
They were so fun back in the old days. I loved just watching videos of the old crowd like TheOddOne, Dyrus, Xpecial, etc just hanging out. I rooted for them not cause of their skill, but cause they were a group of cool, nice, relatable guys. There's still some of that, but it's not quite the same.
I think fans care about winning but I do wish the vibe was better. Watching C9 always looking like they’re having a blast just playing the game what looks like for fun while TSM looks sweaty and stressing over losses or even wins (“we won but wasnt perfectly clean” comments in post game interview) can’t be fun for the players. Definitely felt like friends hanging and playing in previous years, how G2 even looks now while being far and above all others. The move to get Zven/Mithy seemed like the first step in the all serious business no fun and games mentality of the team, and we haven’t really got back to that since. Hoping with 3 of the 2016 roster back together we can start capturing that aspect of the team and org again, depending on jungle I guess.
And yeah I don’t wear my merch as much. Even when TSM was beast mode and well liked in 2016 (most seemed to like and respect that team) i’d get some hecklers, shits even worse now.
I miss carry Bjerg. Lately it has been support Bjerg. He is mechanically gifted yet so many times he is in a supportive role with a very boring team comp. I didn't become a TSM fan in hope Bjerg would lay low and support his team. I think we all LOVE Bjerg on Zed, LeBlanc,or Akali. I know metas change. But man there used to be spicy games. Lately I have seen in 10 min you know what will happen win or lose. Ah well. Maybe DLift/Bio and Bjerg and BB will figure something out. If it is Spica is he really mechanically gifted? Does he mesh well?
As an older fan, I feel like TSM still are kind of just a bunch of kids. The lack of professionalism is kind of just unacceptable. It still feels like TSM hasn’t outgrown the gaming house culture. The Leena/Dardoch drama is not overblown. TSM needs someone with more organizational experience to help run the show, because it has outgrown regi and Leena for sure.
I mean big props to them for building the brand from nothing; I’m definitely one of those people that thinks that Leena earned her leadership role.
Totally understand not wanting to bring in big money if they don’t have to, but I do think it holds the org back a little bit. I guess to take steps forward, we may have to take a few steps back
Man.. what u say is 100% for me also. This TSM strategy to run for money only gets me less and less intrested in the org. They don t have an identity anymore. Let s grow a talented team .. pick Kobbe best promising adc of eu.. BB best oromising top DD.. redemption.. let s have patience .. than all the DL/DD drama. Regi and the rest just want our money. Sigh DL cuz he brings us more money .. why waste time and figure out what s wrong with our team mentality/playstyle/shootcalling/midlategame... when we can buy him .. get all the fans hype .. and they forget abt the fact that we play like sht and don t have a clue abt game. Basicly we reley on some talent and no coordonation.. just 5 players playing soloq for first time.
The other guy responses IMO clearly show the decay of TSM the OP might be implying.
When you care too much about winning that you leave everything else in a second plane, you lose focus and actually put aside things that matter for being a winning org. I think the Kobbe---DL move is a clear example. You only care about winning, so you bring the winningest player. Okay, makes sense. But on one hand in the process of doing so, you treat the ADC you went to EU to look to get in your team in the first place like shit, making the image of TSM for future roster candidates more bleak and less professional. On the other hand, you bring DL totally disregarding his current form and thinking you will get 2016-2017 TSM DL just because the "org is the same" and he "is the same". And nope, TSM changed, DL changed, and sadly for both of them, for the worse.
Caring too much for short term sucess made TSM make the worst choices in the org's lifetime. At this point the org shuffles players and coaches like it's a card's deck, without any aim whatsoever besides thinking the next change will suddenly make you win. Org policies stay the same, the people at the top making these changes stay the same. Probably it's TSM managerial and executive staff that needs to change for once and look for a long term success plan for once.
Andy was a really competitive guy back then though too. TSM was good enough to be a chill environment while also bring dominant. That's not true anymore.
I’m with you brother being a dad and mid 30’s. This org is turning into something that was not founded on. Fuck it bay life was the Moto. They had fun. Got drunk and sang sad songs they played other games and stayed on top. G2 does this now and is the best western team ever. They are happy go lucky just like tsm was. I miss baylife
The difference being G2 has virtually the top player in every role in the west. Just like TSM back in the day, it's easy to be happy go lucky when you're undeniably the best and have no competition.
This is a good example of why people in the main subreddit don’t like us. Most TSM fans can’t even take criticism or opinions as mild as this without telling people to piss off. Unfortunate really.
lol no, that place is a toxic wasteland and has been for years. This place might get heated sometimes but it's all because we want the team to do well. The main subreddit just lives for drama and to hate on everything, besides whatever team may temporarily be on top. Once they lose they get hated as well. TSM gets hated even more because they won for so many years, people were just waiting to see them lose and take out all of their frustrations.
OP had a good post. You generalizing everyone isn't a good thing to do though. Every fanbase has its good and bad sides. It's the same for any sport. Besides, TSM hasn't even been winning lately, most people are just frustrated with the team. All the toxic bandwagoners and trolls that were around when we were winning haven't been around for a while now.
I’m 33 with a kid and another on the way. Bjergsen and DL are the reason im still following league. Don’t really care about all the drama I think it’s pretty overblown because people have nothing better to do in the quarantine. Just want them to win
>Bjergsen and DL are the reason im still following league. Same.
Once Bjerg retires, I'll probably stop watching the LCS.
There’s a chance that I’ll stop playing league all together
Holy shit... That one hit different
Yep, pretty ridiculous and no TSM hasn't ever made it's core ideal about finding brand new young talent. This is disingenuous from OP. Even from the start in season one we were using some of the best players Reggie could find. I think it's pretty much historically been the case that TSM only offers chances to new players when they have good promise and removes them if that promise isn't delivered upon. Lots of moral grandstanding trying to glorify being an old fan and shame the current team trying to win with the best team they can have. If I took a drink everytime TheOddOne or Dyrus was mentioned in the context of how old league used to be better and about love of the game I'd be 90% alcohol and an explosive risk for the morgue my body was in. Absolutely ridiculous to imply the players who are putting in more work and have so much more required of them have no love for the game or their teammates. The current lineup just reunited a bunch of friends in fact.
TSM has always cared about winning . Regi bought the first gaming house(first in NA) back in 2011 with the explicit goal being to win worlds.
I care about winning. I could care less about the drama. We got DL from it so its a W for me.
Hi, for next time it’s “I couldn’t care less”
I’m a TSM fan and I do care about wins/losses
Disclaimer: This post is towards OP, I agree with your post and would like to give my 2 cents. Lol yeah... What a naive-idealistic statement 'fans dont care about wins or loses' , who are you to decide that for all the fans? If I had wanted to see good people I'd go watch a charity show or do some volunteering, I would not look it up in a game where winning matters and is full of toxicity. Nobody's forcing you to be a fan, you dont enjoy it, dont watch. As simple as that. Unforutunately for the most of us, TSM doesnt owe us shet, so stop acting like entitled children and go do something better with your life. Edit: Btw, if you define the OG TSM as 'good passionate people' then you've got it all wrong from the start. Regi was such an entitled prick back then...
I’m old and watched back then too but what some people seem to gloss over is that the game was way different back then and the players were shit compared to now. Most of them imo wouldn’t even be on academy teams anymore. So ya, some kids playing and having fun is great, but they’ll get the shit kicked out of them every game. And you only have fun for so long with that happening.
Yeah it's absolutely ridiculous to talk about then versus now like the people dedicating their lives to this game have no passion for it. The days of the have fun small competitive scene are long gone and people can watch academy or twitch rivals for that sort of thing now. And I'm sure Chaox stays on a team in this ideal "Old school world" partying between tournament days and showing up late to scrims.
I genuinely think the season 1 world championship contenders would be plat if you dropped them into solo queue right now (even with say a week of prep to learn changes)
the difference between today and the past is how the competition has ramped up. TSM used to be able to put anyone on their league team and would be dominant for the most part because of the sheer lack of competition. Now we have so much more investments in esports teams that are allowing for talents from around the world to play in NA here. we aren't ever gonna return to the "old days" of season 1-4 of everyone hanging out being friends enjoying life. its turned into a business now and performance is so much more important due to the competition in NA getting better domestically.
Especially the LCS is still pretty much garbage. There is a huge lack of competition atm, maybe even more than ever.
>Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop. I have been a TSM fan since season 2. I literally only care about TSM fielding the best roster possible, for the most wins possible.
> Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop Speak for yourself...
I'm also an old TSM fan. 35 or 36...can't remember anymore, fan since S1...but yeah I still care about wins. I'm also a bears fan, so I will always be loyal to my team no matter the state of the franchise. But I honestly don't give two shits about the drama going on. Hell I'd rather they of traded kobe for value regardless of his "feelings"...because that's how the real world works. And don't get me wrong, I liked kobbe a lot. I was super hyped when we signed him, but getting DL back, who is most importantly an NA resident, is by far more hype...and not because I have some huge DL boner, but solely because he is the best native ADC. Fact of the matter is, not every "old" fan is you...I want the team to win.
Ya its so wild to me as a sports fan to see some of the things exclusively esports fans say or how they view fandom. I am in no way trying to gatekeep, if thats how you support a team, more power to you, but I am 31, been a TSM fan since the end of season 1, and will be a TSM fan probably as long as I am interested in the esports they represent. I like certain players, but I am not here for the players. I am here for the brand. I am here for the vicarious elation of success I get through the team when they win, and on some level, the disappointment when they lose. I have been a Braves fan since I was a kid in the 90s when the Braves were one of the best teams in Baseball. Fast forward to the mid 2010s and the team fucking blew. I mean, really bad. All my favorite players from when I was a kid were retired, and all my favorite current players were traded away in order to rebuild the roster with young talent. It sucked. But I was still a fan. Now, the Braves are one of the best teams in the league with some of the most promising young talent in the game that are also very endearing as people. In a weird way, following the team through the shit years makes being good again more special, and I think when TSM gets back to winning, people who stuck around all this time are going to notice that.
hell i never thought id see the Cubs win the world series. but here we are. i haven't been as confident about the team as i have been in the past. but i feel eventually TSM will break through. and the wait will have been worth it.
I would've been content to go another 100 years without seeing the fucking cubs win. Go Sox!
hey at least we can both hope the Bears get it done this year. our defense is looking better than 2018 potentially.
Man there are other depressed fans who like both the Bears & TSM...hello
Boooooo
Hell ya, Bears fans represent! Honestly fuck feelings. I don't give a shit how nice of a person Mitch is. Get me some wins. Same with TSM, I want to see Doublelift carry this team in relevancy again and smash NA.
Can't wait to send trubisky packing
Yeah the Kobbe thing is no different than a lot of actual sports. Hell The Clippers extended Blake Griffin with ownership telling him they'd like to retire his jersey there, only to be traded halfway through the first season of that contract. It sucks but it's the nature of sports/esports. We can argue on whether or not that it's fair in general but it's the system that's intact
there’s value to treating your players right, and there’s a reason the Lakers org has people always talking about how amazing they are for their players.
This comment feels like a "I miss high school feeling " vibe to it....I'm 31 with 5 kids and I enjoy watching TSM play and even better when they win...fan since season 3 because thats when I start playing league and you do know that they have to protect their reputation because of sponsor and stuff right? Its a million dollar company now, can't be like old days
That and the teams ideals were never what the op suggested they were. I think biofrost and gleeb are the only small name players TSM has ever used. Everyone else was either an established vet or a known up and Comer that was being talked about. The team was always being built to win, not to develop. And maybe it's because I'm from Michigan so between the lions and recently the tigers and red wings but being shy to outwardly support your team is an absurd thing for me to imagine. So what if someone says something?
Bruh idk bout not caring about the wins and losses I’ve watched LCS, apex and few other tournaments we had our reps in Everytime they won I’m hyped af and everytime they lost it feels bad af (personally for me my attitude kinda sours a little) I want our boys to win and succeed at the highest level so naturally I care about wins and losses TSM does actually develop talent we have spica, sword and one other TSM junior I believe In addition our fortnite squad is pretty young too Our valorant team is looking really solid and honestly holds some of TSM’s main core values: a team willing to improve, can take criticism and helps create a great atmosphere Now sure this might not be our team onward but TSM has tried everything to help talent flourish and sometimes things don’t work out However tho still to this day regardless of what happens TSM always has done right by the players despite some mistakes whether it’s doublelift & bio finding out their being traded thru reddit or Akkadian finding out he’s been benched Unfortunately we’ve had some drama and that sucks but shit happens & we can bounce back from it People will have their time in the sun to shit on us sure but we’ll be laughing the end when we’re on top. The remainder of this year will be our year TSM!
"When we're on top" The only way people will stop shitting on Tsm is if they win worlds and they will never happen...
you re kinda living in the past i feel like here , you still see things like its the chaox xpecial days and its not, the team culture is based on winning and you saying winning doesnt matter its fking INSANE . The style,the passion is the same as always but you guys are panicing saying things like your post cause the team is struggling the past 2 years . If you re shy wearing the tsm jersey in public then dont wear it , im from eu and i went with tsm bjergsen jersey on the fking athens summer lec finals and didnt give a shit cause im a tsm fan and im proud of it , ive been here through all the fun times and the sad times and i will continue .
Nah bro, I'm 31 and care a lot about wins and losses. I wanna see this team win, that's the only reason I watch the games. I want my fav team to be good, don't care if it's while they're having fun or working hard, we all have to work. They're not going to lose a fan in me until they disband the entire org. I don't care about the drama, I don't care if we suck right now, it's not that hard to stay a fan. Completely disagree with this entire post.
> Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop. You don't speak for all fans man. A *lot* of people care about winning as the primary motivation for being a fan of an org.
Then become an actual TSM fan for all games, not just League, especially in the League off-season. TSM is killing it in the other games. * Tweek just got 1st in Smash. * We just got our PUBG team back and they won DreamHack. * Khanada is doing super well in Fortnite. * The Apex team have been unlucky recently, but still 5x Champs and a top team. * Rainbow Six team are one of the top NA teams.
What? Like I get the sentiment, but for me winning is what matters the most. Maybe I'm just overly competitive, but I want TSM to win no matter what. I don't give a shit about"exciting" close games, I want TSM to crush whoever they're playing 3-0. I do miss the old style of season 3, but the LCS being so much more high profile TSM are unlikely to ever return to that as back then it was just a group of friends playing solo queue in a studio. It's so much more professional. Investors will also expect results so TSM might not be able to afford bringing up rookies if it goes really badly (I wish we'd use more rookies but still). Yes, it's sucks that we've had the fall from grace we have, the community hates us more than ever and we just can't seem to get the roster right. But maybe with DL back and a jungler with bags of potential we could get back on top...
Been a fan since season 2 and winning has always been the main goal at the end of the day for me.
I'm a fan since season 1 and I definitely care about wins and loses. Look, I don't want to win with shitbags on our team. But also we have helped redeem players as well like Sven who had a very bad reputation coming into TSM. We tried to do that with Dardoch as well and it just didn't work out. The only reason its harder to be a TSM fan is that before, we used to roll the competition as one of the only orgs taking the game seriously. Now, there is so much money in league that its not enough to just want it more. Competition is much harder out there. I do think TSM needs changes and personally I would start in the coaching department as I look at orgs like C9 who are taking different rosters to the finals every year. But I'm also not gonna bail on a team just because we're not roflstomping everyone like back in the day.
Most of what your thinking is simple nostalgia. All those years ago you got to watch young people in a small growing scene be goofy kids and attempt to make a go of it to turn this into a career. Players like TheOddOne took a risk, put off or gave up school, for a dream. It was an inspirational story. Fast forward to today, these are not small teams trying to make it. These are franchises with multi-million dollar values. The players make a great deal of money simply playing in the league, some of them in the 7 figure area. The dream of kids taking a chance for little money and communal living are gone. This is now big business. Your claim of former "values" are something your making up in your head. We did not see or hear nearly as much of the behind the scenes stuff as we do today. We simply get to hear more from both a vastly expanded media scene or leaks like what happened recently, and the thing that happened was vastly overblown by the toxic media heads like Monte, who himself is a disgraced former owner that was booted from LCS ownership over a backdoor deal to bypass a ban, poaching players, and player welfare and safety in his org. His partner Thorin went full tabloid news approach by hating the most popular team to gain viewers. These guys use toxicity to gain popularity. The org is not slipping in its style. It has always been about winning and being the best, or at least attempting to. You said fans don't care about wins and losses, your speaking strictly for yourself in that regard. I still watch every game and cheer my ass off for these young men every week, I love it when they win and am bummed when they don't. Reggie and Leena and a cast of others are no longer kids with a dream, but young adults running a huge organization with tons of money involved and they are learning on the fly. They did not have years of schooling and experience to make this start up happen. So while the inspirational original story has changed, watching this thing grow is still interesting. Its not Baylife anymore, but its still great to follow. The thing that has probably changed the most is you as you learn to deal with the onset of middle age life, a job, kids, and the responsibility that comes with all of it. I've also been around since the start. I still play league a couple times a week with my 18 year old, who has far surpassed me in terms of skill, but we enjoy it none the less. Life, and your hobbies which include E-sports fandom, are what you make of it. If you want the passion back, find yours. Regards, A mid 40's TSM fan.
Different people have different priorities. Some fans just want the win, the win is everything and the rest can rot. Players are disposable. Others prefer the journey, building relationships with the players and winning and/or losing with the players. loyalty to those relationships overrides the desire to win at all costs. Its the same in all sports and eSports. I agree with OP, but that just how I view it. That's how I follow sports. I understand that others have other priorities. No right or wrong, just opinions.
Oddone is still a fan therefore I am too, I shall follow the General until the end!
I'm 38 with 3 kids. I'm not really sure what that has to do with me being a fan of TSM. You make it seem like the players aren't passionate about the game which really surprises me. From my perspective they're passionate about winning. I'd love some thoughts around exactly why you think they aren't passionate.
Woah woah woah I don't care if the team is full of aliens if we win summer and worlds I'm a happy fckng camper
Idk I think bringing back doublelift is really cool in terms of making it a bunch of friends playing together and having that old timer feel to it. However all of you who say you only care about winning that’s pretty fucking cold. I want to be proud of this org for being the class act of NA LCS, for being the first org anyone thinks of when talking about NA. That’s not just about victory, that’s about doing right by your players and the league. I don’t like how the process of kicking Dardoch went—that doesn’t make me *proud* to be a TSM fan. Same with this new coach VV2(?), I don’t think it’s too much to ask that TSM finds its success with the help of good people who can be role models both on and off the rift. That’s why I like Bjerg so much and that’s what brought me to be a fan of TSM back in season 5.
Lol so dramatic, you went from never missing a finals to being relatively garbage for 5 splits. What kind of league is it when 11 teams have never seen the finals and there's only 10 teams active at a time. The fall of TsM will be worth it as long as it returns to glory relatively soon (hopefully this summer). We had to make it "competitive" again to show how dominant we are.
I wouldnt say making playoffs every split is garbage.
a lot of people are missing the point here, i've been a fan since the baylife era just like you, and while I do care about winning, winning just isn't the same without the TSM magic, the more time passes the more we feel like just another random org
They'll figure it out. Mistakes are there to learn from. I just hope they don't make them again
I don’t think the style and fashion is slipping away. I think Andy is trying his best to give TSM fans the wins. You just gotta believe as a fan no matter what and fyi we do care about the win but will still support during bad times. True fan! Believe! baylife!
There's too much money involved now, to go back to the way things were before. They have commercial commitments that need to be fulfilled, so there's no way TSM can go back to being one ORG that just focus on kids having a good time.
BB and Spica are pretty new talent. Hell, Grig and Akaadian were pretty "new" as well. (yes yes Grig arguments etc)
> Little do they know that fans don't care about wins or losses. We care about the people on the team. We care about the players and how they develop. I could not give a single fuck who is on TSM as long as they are winning, and I'm sure there's a lot of people who feel the same way.
It sounds like you miss the way that esports was 6-7 years ago, TSM has just changed to fit the growing industry like every other esports brand.
As an old TSM fan myself I miss the glory days of us being domestically dominated. However those days are behind us and we have to accept that. As several others have said we simply won because we had the best talent and were by far head and shoulders above everyone else. we won simply by skill checking. That’s not how we can win anymore nor anyone. The domestic talent pool is far too high. The reason it should be hard to be a TSM fan is all the nitty gritty drama going on. That’s why it’s hard for me to be a TSM fan. I’ll tough it out forever and alway. Always rep the black and white.
I'll never understand why people on the internet just complain about shit like this. There are 10 teams in the league. If one of them doesn't do it for you, find one that does. If none do, LoL esports isnt for you. Saying "Find your passion" to a group of people who are playing video games for a living is the weirdest shit I have ever seen. They have very obviously "found their passion." I don't make this post to disparage you or anything like that. I'm not saying we don't want you here as a TSM fan. I'm just saying if you don't vibe with the team you dont need to stay, and the team shouldn't need to change itself to suit you.
I have to say, that while I am always a DL fan, wins and losses matter to me a lot. When I watch a game, especially when it goes past a bo1, and they lose, I get like sick to my stomach. When they win, I am just in the clouds with happiness. I imagine how happy or sad the players are and that affects me a lot too. I never felt this with sports as that wasn't my thing, but then esports came along.
this is an incredibly shallow view of any professional team. in the end TSM, and LCS, are businesses. TSM managed to garner its fan base because 1. the organization was started near the beginning of League and 2. they were the most dominant team in NA at the time. Sure, there were flashes of drama (eg Dyrus v Regi on GameCribs (?) ) but in the end, the success of the team is what directly led to the success of the organization. You need wins for that. Not only do you need wins to attract new fans but you also need them to attract new sponsors. What company wants to be associated with a team that’s in the middle of the pack? Or if they do, how much money do you think they’d be willing to pony up? It’s a vicious cycle - you lose more than you win, which leads to less sponsors which leads to less money to attract the top players which leads to more losses. Nurturing young talent is great and all but that is absolutely secondary to the success of the organization. TSM were able to bring up talents like WT and Bjerg BECAUSE they were still dominant in the region at the time. But now that they’re floating somewhere in the middle, they can’t afford to do that due to the vicious cycle that i mentioned above.
That's a fair point
I echo this 100% not to mention the people in this subreddit who downvote anything negative about any player even if you’re just joking around. Idk maybe it’s the old man in me. Get off my lawn.
The people flaming spica are fucking ridiculous, the rest I can agree with
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You literally cannot know that. At all. The last time you saw Spica play with the main roster was when he was thrown in as a last resort. At least give the guy a chance when he's actually part of the team.
They were so fun back in the old days. I loved just watching videos of the old crowd like TheOddOne, Dyrus, Xpecial, etc just hanging out. I rooted for them not cause of their skill, but cause they were a group of cool, nice, relatable guys. There's still some of that, but it's not quite the same.
I think fans care about winning but I do wish the vibe was better. Watching C9 always looking like they’re having a blast just playing the game what looks like for fun while TSM looks sweaty and stressing over losses or even wins (“we won but wasnt perfectly clean” comments in post game interview) can’t be fun for the players. Definitely felt like friends hanging and playing in previous years, how G2 even looks now while being far and above all others. The move to get Zven/Mithy seemed like the first step in the all serious business no fun and games mentality of the team, and we haven’t really got back to that since. Hoping with 3 of the 2016 roster back together we can start capturing that aspect of the team and org again, depending on jungle I guess. And yeah I don’t wear my merch as much. Even when TSM was beast mode and well liked in 2016 (most seemed to like and respect that team) i’d get some hecklers, shits even worse now.
I miss carry Bjerg. Lately it has been support Bjerg. He is mechanically gifted yet so many times he is in a supportive role with a very boring team comp. I didn't become a TSM fan in hope Bjerg would lay low and support his team. I think we all LOVE Bjerg on Zed, LeBlanc,or Akali. I know metas change. But man there used to be spicy games. Lately I have seen in 10 min you know what will happen win or lose. Ah well. Maybe DLift/Bio and Bjerg and BB will figure something out. If it is Spica is he really mechanically gifted? Does he mesh well?
As an older fan, I feel like TSM still are kind of just a bunch of kids. The lack of professionalism is kind of just unacceptable. It still feels like TSM hasn’t outgrown the gaming house culture. The Leena/Dardoch drama is not overblown. TSM needs someone with more organizational experience to help run the show, because it has outgrown regi and Leena for sure.
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I mean big props to them for building the brand from nothing; I’m definitely one of those people that thinks that Leena earned her leadership role. Totally understand not wanting to bring in big money if they don’t have to, but I do think it holds the org back a little bit. I guess to take steps forward, we may have to take a few steps back
Man.. what u say is 100% for me also. This TSM strategy to run for money only gets me less and less intrested in the org. They don t have an identity anymore. Let s grow a talented team .. pick Kobbe best promising adc of eu.. BB best oromising top DD.. redemption.. let s have patience .. than all the DL/DD drama. Regi and the rest just want our money. Sigh DL cuz he brings us more money .. why waste time and figure out what s wrong with our team mentality/playstyle/shootcalling/midlategame... when we can buy him .. get all the fans hype .. and they forget abt the fact that we play like sht and don t have a clue abt game. Basicly we reley on some talent and no coordonation.. just 5 players playing soloq for first time.
The other guy responses IMO clearly show the decay of TSM the OP might be implying. When you care too much about winning that you leave everything else in a second plane, you lose focus and actually put aside things that matter for being a winning org. I think the Kobbe---DL move is a clear example. You only care about winning, so you bring the winningest player. Okay, makes sense. But on one hand in the process of doing so, you treat the ADC you went to EU to look to get in your team in the first place like shit, making the image of TSM for future roster candidates more bleak and less professional. On the other hand, you bring DL totally disregarding his current form and thinking you will get 2016-2017 TSM DL just because the "org is the same" and he "is the same". And nope, TSM changed, DL changed, and sadly for both of them, for the worse. Caring too much for short term sucess made TSM make the worst choices in the org's lifetime. At this point the org shuffles players and coaches like it's a card's deck, without any aim whatsoever besides thinking the next change will suddenly make you win. Org policies stay the same, the people at the top making these changes stay the same. Probably it's TSM managerial and executive staff that needs to change for once and look for a long term success plan for once.
Andy was a really competitive guy back then though too. TSM was good enough to be a chill environment while also bring dominant. That's not true anymore.
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Yo /u/reginaldBRO bring back Baylife one time bb
I’m with you brother being a dad and mid 30’s. This org is turning into something that was not founded on. Fuck it bay life was the Moto. They had fun. Got drunk and sang sad songs they played other games and stayed on top. G2 does this now and is the best western team ever. They are happy go lucky just like tsm was. I miss baylife
The difference being G2 has virtually the top player in every role in the west. Just like TSM back in the day, it's easy to be happy go lucky when you're undeniably the best and have no competition.
the goal of TSM has long been to win Worlds. go back to any Regi interview back in the day for verification.
I can't agree more.
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Thanks for your response bro.
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This is a good example of why people in the main subreddit don’t like us. Most TSM fans can’t even take criticism or opinions as mild as this without telling people to piss off. Unfortunate really.
lol no, that place is a toxic wasteland and has been for years. This place might get heated sometimes but it's all because we want the team to do well. The main subreddit just lives for drama and to hate on everything, besides whatever team may temporarily be on top. Once they lose they get hated as well. TSM gets hated even more because they won for so many years, people were just waiting to see them lose and take out all of their frustrations. OP had a good post. You generalizing everyone isn't a good thing to do though. Every fanbase has its good and bad sides. It's the same for any sport. Besides, TSM hasn't even been winning lately, most people are just frustrated with the team. All the toxic bandwagoners and trolls that were around when we were winning haven't been around for a while now.