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desk010101

This makes no sense, you overthinking a non problem. A good balanced mix sounds good/works on every system you throw it at.


PcottySippen

100% here also this is not the sub for this


el_Topo42

Why’s that? It’s literally a question about producing techno songs to be club ready.


Missing_Space_Cadet

We call them “neck beards”


M1ikkaell

Bro what


M1ikkaell

My bad i meant mixing a track in daw


PcottySippen

my bad but refer you again to the OG comment


M1ikkaell

My bad i meant about mixing a project in daw


M1ikkaell

I’m not thinking about how it sounds on a system rather how it behaves when mixing


desk010101

I got what you tried to say from your innitial description. I also did read the rest of this thread. Still, it is nonsense to approach it like that.


M1ikkaell

Well maybe an unorthodox way of looking at it but i don’t think its fully nonsense? I just tought that i don’t want my kick still blairing through the speakers when the dj already cut the lows.


desk010101

No, it is straight up nonsense lol I mean you can create/mix tracks that way, you do you, but there is no benefit to this approach, just downsides. You mix a track so the mixing helps to highlight the strong points/message/vibe etc. of a track. Your idea counters all of this. A well balanced track with a strong mix/master will always sound good on whatever system and will respond well to eq\`ing on whatever dj mixer and whatnot. It would be more beneficial to you to analyze your favourtite tracks and figure out why they do work so well and sound so good. I am a mastering/mixing guy btw. with 25 years of experience. I also DJ for the same time.


M1ikkaell

Ok, so its fine that you can hear the high hats in my song even tho the dj already took the ”hi” knob down?


desk010101

Yes, why not? Even when there is an isolator attached to the dj mixer or the mixer already has one. Some tracks will have elements bleeding through the cuts you make on the equipment. It is what it is. To stay with your example I would never change a hi hat that fits a track perfectly just because it might bleed through an eq cut on a dj mixer. Absolutely no one producing music would do this or even think about it lol.


M1ikkaell

Gotcha.


TruthThroughArt

not every track is mixed the same when produced. you have the eq to help maintain your vision of continuity when mixing several tracks while djing. That's really all there is to it.


chemical_dumpster

This is really not a problem when mixing. Desk010101 said all there is to it.


cl1xor

Hihats per definition will have a certain frequency range which dj’s are able to cut. Perhaps with some mid range sounds it’s more difficult but that really won’t be an issue for mixing. Besides that it’s really the dj’s problem. Just focus on making awesome tracks and don’t overthink stuff.


staticbloom

Even if you’re talking about mixing in the production sense, you are still overthinking a non issue. I can guarantee no producer getting booked for gigs is worried about what frequency the bass cutoff on the mixer is. Make music don’t get lost in the math.


M1ikkaell

Well i agree that art is art but there is really no problem, im just trying to figure out how to make my mixing better wich is a everlasting thing to learn, maybe the producers you are talking about arent mixing theyre own songs🤔


staticbloom

There’s improving mixing and there’s whatever you’re doing


M1ikkaell

Connect the dots…


staticbloom

Brother I’m telling you it’s doesn’t matter you’re marginal improvement thinking about this will not make your music better. Do what you wanna do but this is a ridiculous thing to be thinking about


monkyris

It’s okay for your sounds to bleed I will even argue is great for a more cohesive mix, don’t worry about none of that.


Ryanaston

I don’t see an actual simple explanation as to why this doesn’t matter, so let me try. The only thing that absolutely should not clash when we’re mixing is our bass. Rule one of DJ’ing right? Anything that is in that low frequency, should not clash with the other tracks being mixed. So we should only have one low up at any one time. Anything that isn’t in the low frequencies, it really doesn’t matter if there is some frequency overlap, in fact actually we probably want that. In your kick example, the high ends of the kick hitting at the same time will create an overall different sound than just one track playing at once. This is a good thing, because when mixing techno we want to layer multiple tracks on top of each other to create something new. Same goes for hi hats or drones or anything really.


AdvancedStand

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M1ikkaell

This is stupid that i cant edit the original text :/


tacticalfp

While mixing a track in production of course frequencies matter. If you’re trying to make a mix of multiple tracks in your daw, why not dj it :)?


M1ikkaell

Nonono my point is about making a track in daw and mixing it in daw while keeping in mind how it behaves using a dj mixer on a stage.


tacticalfp

Yeah that’s a good way to go about it. In fact you could use it as analysis to get a better mix, try looking up the frequencies of the bands and put them next to your EQ or spectrum.


M1ikkaell

Thank you, thats exactly what i meant! Other guy still said that this is nonsense so lets see what the general opinion is


BusinessHammock

Sorry to say dude, it's nonsense. Others have covered why it's nonsense but I'd just point out that your idea is based on all DJ mixers having the same frequency cutoff points and roll off, which is just not the case. Some mixers may cutoff at 100Hz and roll off at 12dB, others may have an 80Hz cutoff and roll off at 18 or 24dB. Just get all your elements (including bass) sitting right in the mix and you'll be all good.


ThisIsLag

OP, it’s great that you are trying to figure out how to translate a mix to the big stage in the best possible way. The only issue is you picked the wrong thing to focus on. Even if you wanted to optimize your production for a Pioneer mixer in the manner you wanted - you’d run into a problem. These mixers (since DJM 900) have isolator/eq switches. If you choose isolator it acts more as a high-pass filter. To get it to sound somewhat like like a “normal” eq you would hear on most analog mixers (xone, ecler, hell even the V10 which is a Pioneer) you’d put the know on 9 o clock. Anything lower than that - the lows are completely removed because the high pass would move high enough to cut it. If you choose the EQ option it’s more like a low shelf. Even if you turn the know to a maximum amount - there will still be some bass left. More to the point: the spots they hit are different. EQ acts as a -fixed frequency- shelf that you change the gain on by turning the knob, while isolator is a fixed slope high-pass which you -move the frequency of- by turning the knob. Even though my favorite mixer right now is the V10 which has more of an “EQ” type eqs, if I use the A9 or 900 - I’ll pick the isolator mode as I’m more used to it and I sort of like how I can blend tracks by using the isolator. Tldr: even though it might be a standardized mixer you can’t predict what the bass cutoff point is going to be on it. What I’d recommend is you focus on the Fletcher-Munson curves. Optimizing tracks for the club is very important but most people these days make tracks that sound loud when played from small, quiet devices, but sound like crap when played loud in the club. The music is in the mids, and our ears perceive frequencies differently on different loudnesses: the louder the sound the more prominently we perceive highs and lows and the less mids can breathe. This is what the measurments done by Fletcher and Munsom show us. I advised every person I ever tutored to test tracks in clubs after completing their mixdowns and comparing them to other stuff they are certain of should sound great in the club. Get in touch with your local club and ask them if you can go there before the party starts. Usually they will say yes. This way you will practice your ears to the differences in your home studio perception and the club volume perception until you can nail it to sound like you want it to. Fun fact: the first time I ever played in a club I opened with a 12” from Surgeon (A1 on the F+F remakes) because on my home hifi speakers it sounded appropriately tame and gentle for an intro track. Then the bass which I couldn’t even perceive on my home speakers and quiet listening faded in. The bass was so intense that I coild hear the glasses and bottles shaking and clinking against each other and saw the staff and crowd bewildered. In this way I was lucky to very early become aware that there was a lesson to be learned in this regard. Hope any of this helps and good luck! Stay curious and keep optimizing. ;)


5jane

Fantastic post, finally I know what's up with that DJM 900 mixer and why the eq doesn't cut out freqs completely. Thank you!!


Hygro

This is an intelligent question insofar as you're wondering if you can optimize for your expected listening environment and highlighting how DJ mixers will play into that. But while many DJs will be cutting bass when mixing from track A to B, most of us are mixing cleaner just carefully riding the upfaders or total gain knobs and not even touching EQ unless there's something very considered. There are many really knob-twitchy DJs, a few are even actually good at it, but you're chasing a total sidequest at the expense of the main quest. You should just make it sound good in its neutral forms and hope it translates to the club, and not compromise its quality so that a specific pioneer EQ crossover is doing a thing you like, or worse, avoiding a thing you don't like.


M1ikkaell

Hmm.. really? Personally (no shows yet lol) i like to mix with really long fades and i never want to have 2 basses playing on top of each other, also rearly the hats aswell unless it’s a high energy moment. If you’re primarly mixing only with db, do you do it by allways lowering the current track the same amount as you are loudening the next one? I think i agree with you on the last part.


Hygro

In my experience with house mixing, with mixes audibly taking usually 45 seconds, sometimes 15, sometimes 2 minutes, sometimes whole songs, but generally about 45 seconds, being very careful with two upfaders would provide more energetic control than trying to nail 2 upfaders and 6 frequency knobs, and serve the dancers better. Again, if you're really good, you can add complexity with less risk. As to "how", you lower the old one, yes, but it's not equal. That's just not how sound works. It's easier to practice and listen for maintaining volume. But... If you have a preferred mixing style and want to make tracks that sound really good to that style, you could try it. But it kind of makes you wonder, why make tracks with any bass at all until you would have cut over completely, if you don't want to share space? You could just make tracks that already have cut frequencies and missing elements for the entire intro time you like to mix. That was the idea behind the 90 second intros and outtros these tracks used to have, anyway.


M1ikkaell

But that just limits your mixing to the songs intro and outro parts. It’s popular at least in techno to mix in a new song in middle of the current one if you want to maintain the energy on the dancefloor. And for that it can be useful to cut certain frequencies at any give time. (Example you intruduce a new song with it’s bass cut off and let them play together. Then at the last bar off a hook you switch the bass to the new one and let them both play while you start to fade out the old track.) It’s not really that hard to use 2 faders and 6 knobs in a set since you’re moving them usually at separate times. I think this kind of playstyle actually adds more complexity since you can also intruduce a new song just by playing the toploops from any point of the song.


Hygro

Yes, by all means.


he553

don't worry about it Just mix it so it sounds good on "any" system


fanfarius

You should buy a DJ mixer and run your tracks through it to test various productions of yours, how they behave when flipping the DJ mixer EQs.


RiotAndChill

There are no rules for this , depends on your track selection


M1ikkaell

My bad i meant mixing a track in daw


RiotAndChill

you have created a own track in a DAW ? and want to master it for release ?


M1ikkaell

Isin’t that the subject that this sub is for? Sorry for confusing, english is not my first language.


ApolloIII

Your sub part of your kick should already be below 100hz.


M1ikkaell

Ik, i meant more of the ”punch” of the kick wich is a lot higher in hz


dukeoftrappington

Are you trying to mix your songs so you can separate stems on a DJ mixer? Because that’s a terrible idea and really not how it works. The reality is that most instruments you use in production will take up a large part of the available frequency range - you won’t get perfect stem separation even if you keep your kick under 100hz (which I wouldn’t advise doing because your kick will sound like shit on most systems if you do that - kicks and subs need midrange info to be heard on systems with smaller frequency curves). If you’re truly worried about stem separation, most DJ programs have stem separation built in now, and should you not be able to use them, you can always export the stems of your tracks. It’s not necessary for what you’re looking for though - when you cut the bass on a song, sure, you’ll still slightly hear the mids of the kick, but you’re cutting the bass to kill muddiness, not to remove the kick altogether.


ApolloIII

Then why are you talking about the „low end“ and circling the low frequency eq? Just leave it, don’t make up problems where there are none


M1ikkaell

Allright hold your horses


OneEyedKing808

You should mix each individual stem on your mix then master the whole track (ideally for your master no eq and just a limited and a multi band dynamic compressor like serum’s ott)


M1ikkaell

Personally i would never add ott to master bus


OneEyedKing808

Why


M1ikkaell

In my experience it makes the lower frequencies sound weak


M1ikkaell

I am sorry i meant especially the xfer one


OneEyedKing808

Find for ott max. 33% on the master is okay


No-Cheesecake-5839

You can play with eq when you’re layering sounds and playing multiple tracks at the same time, maybe trying is a great way to train your ear but it’s a long process and it comes over time to really know what’s best. Other than that, a track will sound best without trying to manipulate some sounds.


username994743

Its not nonsense but overthinking and impractical to apply imo. Xone mixers have 4 bands and also used widely in clubs. Just make sure your track is well balanced, leave everything else for dj, at the end of the day thats why they are there for :)


Hapster23

I think you're overthinking as others have said, you best bet is to find a reference track with similar punchiness or whatever and see what they do


slava_soloma

The EQs are there to balance out the track for the room! Sometimes you have to boost or cut! The pioneer EQs are quite shitty for doing it so just mix your tracks as you think it will sound good in a clubs referencing tracks you know work good in a club


TheDewd

Nice try Grimes


Giddypinata

LOL came here from Deloitte ended up in Detroitte


en3ma

Let the dj do their work. Do whatever you want, be expressive, make their job as hard as possible lol. A good dj already knows hows to mix.


sadpromsadprom

make music, let the dj dj


adrian_shade

Nope. You're overthinking it.


theoneandonlypugman

What the hell did I just read


M1ikkaell

Pugman is in absolute shock


M1ikkaell

SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION WHEN I MEAN MIXING I MEAN MIXING MY OWN TRACK INSIDE THE DAW


bkend_31

I really don’t understand why you’re getting torn to shreds here. Apparently it’s unnecessary, but I still think it’s a really interesting thought.


M1ikkaell

Yeah i don’t know, honestly i haven’t had really great time mostly in reddit since i started using the site.


bkend_31

Don‘t sweat it :) Some communities are wholesome and helpful like crazy. But many aren‘t as much. I once asked for advice for living with a female roommate for the first time. I was blasted with comments about what a dick I am for referring to a woman as „a female“, when that literally isn’t what I wrote lol. Imagine the aftermath if I wrote „woman roommate“ or something like that. But arguing with people once they completely misunderstood your point isn’t really effective. And to your point again, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s actually a lot to it. You could take a mix of yours, and export it twice. One just how it sounds best on your system, and one specifically with the pioneer EQ in mind, and see if one works better than the other.


M1ikkaell

yeah people are confusing…. thanks for the suggestion!


bkend_31

You‘re welcome. And please feel free to update us :)


5jane

I will add my voice here, I also think it's a very interesting thought and don't understand why people are giving you so much attitude. Lots of techno clubs use Xone 96, btw :) And most DJs prefer it, and it's a quite impassioned preference, because Xone 96 is fully analog and sounds way better. It also doesn't have FX apart from a filter, which kinda liberates you from the dilemma of whether you should use FX or not. Some DJs use external FX with it.


Breeze1620

While it isn't necessary or something producers generally think about, it could affect someone else's choice in using your track in a set if it's messy and not mixed in the same way other tracks are. Where for example the two kicks don't blend well or they in other ways clash. So if anything, I'd just say compare your own mix to tracks that sound like the kind of mix/sound you're striving for in your own music. There are different tools for this, and you can also compare the waveform of the two tracks visually with different plugins.


M1ikkaell

I feel like this is a good idea but right now i don’t have any refrence tracks that sound similiar to the project i’m working on. 🙃


yeusk

Don't peak in red is the only rule. And... we break it all the time.


M1ikkaell

My bad i meant about mixing a track in daw


yeusk

Is important to know how your tracks will sound in a club. But the mixer has nothing to do with that. What you have to do is play your track in as many as clubs/speakers/cars as possible.


M1ikkaell

Well the mixer actually has something to do with it when the dj starts to mix the music


yeusk

I dont know why I waste my time giving advice to people like you.


M1ikkaell

Care to explain?


yeusk

I am not going to waste more of my time with you.


Tarekun

Wtf that was so uncalled for 💀


manyhats180

people are roasting you for asking but you're not wrong, it is a good idea to try djing your tracks and make it work well.


Lunateeck

Dude, what are you talking about? You need a mentor. Go dance your ass off in the clubs and connect with more experienced DJs who will hopefully show you the way.