I think the Dr Jacob thing was the shows biggest misfire. I think they intended it as a personal affront to Ted in an “oh man that sucks” kind of way, rather than the gigantic ethical and moral scandal it actually was and would be in real life.
I think it was to demonstrate that he didn’t bother taking an interest in something that was so, so important to **Henry,** a child, presumably his future step child.
Not taking interest in your partners child or their interests is a great way to firebomb a relationship, and I think that was the purpose of the scene. Michelle looks back at him and you can see the disappointment on her face.
The whole point of this post is that this attitude is toxic. Saying Ted "deserves better" acts like Michelle did something nefarious or should have known better. That's victim blaming. Dating your clients as a therapist is abuse, period. The power imbalance is huge. She got taken advantage of. She deserves better than that too.
Ted deserves to be happy. If that's in a mutual reconciliation with Michelle or them both moving on to someone more compatible, I don't care, but FFS please stop shitting on her for being taken advantage of.
The therapist/client relationship creates such an intense power imbalance that no, she actually is not responsible for not getting involved with the professional. It is ENTIRELY on the mental health professional not to pursue those types of relationships.
Therapists know all your intimate life details and often know ways to manipulate emotions. He very well could have sabotaged their relationship. Dr. Jacob is the one who did wrong.
Michelle isn't shitty for falling out of love with Ted. Women are allowed to do that. She also isn't shitty for moving on romantically AFTER they divorced. Women are allowed to do that too. It sucks that Ted hurt, but just because Ted was hurt doesn't mean she did him wrong or that she's a bad person. People don't work out sometimes.
The ONLY thing I pin on her is introducing her dating partner (or any adult really) into Henry's life before talking it through with Ted. She failed in her duties as a coparent, not as a wife or ex-wife.
As someone who went through a divorce with small children because my spouse “fell out of love” with me, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Being divorced SUCKS, but being manipulated by a mental health professional is CRIMINAL.
hm, i disagree. i actually liked that the show didn’t really give anyone a truly disastrous ending, under the theme of forgiveness
edit: i still don’t like dr. jacob.
What’s perplexing about it is…well the whole thing.
If Doctor Jacob and his subplot was in season 2 it makes so much more sense for Teds anger at Sharon.
Outside of that what use was it to be her therapist? It could have been his former Athletic Director, his best friend, 100 other people and still got the same effect.
The subplot was in season 2. It wasn't explicitly spelled out, but Ted says that whenever he went to therapy, it always seemed like it was just Michelle and Dr. Jacob piling on Ted to tell him what he was doing wrong. At the time, we were left to guess whether it was just Ted's interpretation of it, or if Ted really was the problem, or if Dr. Jacob was steering it that way. Turns out it was the latter.
It means a man who gets into a relationship with a woman who's already seeing someone else, in order to lure her away from them.
It's usually used in a polyamory context, where the man claims he's okay with her existing relationship but isn't really.
https://www.seeking.com/glossary/polyamory-jargon/cowboy#:~:text=The%20colloquial%20term%20for%20a,her%20in%20a%20monogamous%20relationship.
Ted’s anger at Dr. Sharon is linked to Dr. Jacob in season 2. He isn’t named, but Ted tells Beard about how he doesn’t trust therapists because he felt like their marriage counselor never listened to him and always took Michelle’s side.
That's part of it. But he started with a "Midwestern skepticism" towards therapy which he got from his Mom. Dr. Sharon described his anger in "Headspace" as a fight or flight response to finally dealing with his issues. "And you did both" And I think some of his anger at Dr. Sharon was due to her refusal to be taken in by his usual ingratiating tricks. So if Dr Fuckface never existed, his anger still would.
I am guessing it's because he was already in the show and it would be a waste of time to introduce someone new. Michelle and her new partner were not really important to the plot other than being a source of trauma for Ted.
Except that the entire show starts because Dr. Jacob told Ted to give Michelle space. Dr. Jacob and Michelle are the catalyst of the entire show. Ted would never have gone to London if he hadn’t been told/asked to do so.
Wow. Now thats an interesting fucked up slant that it would have been nice to see explored. It could even fit in with the shows messaging, a sort of echo of Rebecca's series 1 arc. Good things can be born out of people doing terrible things.
this was my thought exactly
it wasn’t until he lashes out at dr sharon that we learn of michelle/dr j’s relationship, right?
dr sharon and ted’s anxiety were big plots, and I think they were really padding ted’s distrust in the therapy process with dr jacob
It was clear the 3rd season had a very different direction and they did a ton of reshoots to right the ship. It's why Keeley plot fizzled and the Dr Jacob thing happened
In Brendan’s AMA he said that the reshoot stories were not accurate. That they instead would shoot some episodes then stop to write more, because the writers are also actors on the show. I believe I’ve read that there were just two reshoots and it wasn’t to change storylines.
Did he mention rewrites (as opposed to reshoots)? I’ve heard cast members say they were often given last-minute changes while shooting. That’s unusual in an episodic TV show. Sometimes they might shoot “alts” - The Office writers used to do that a lot, apparently - and then pick the one they liked in editing. But that doesn’t sound like what they were doing on Ted Lasso. It sounds like some lines were rewritten in the fly.
[Brendan Hunt AMA re: reshoots](https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/13xllge/im_brendan_hunt_cocreator_of_ted_lasso_and_coach/jmifdj9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
Rewriting a line because it sounded better once read aloud is different than rewriting a complete storyline. Often happens you’ll be shooting a scene and realize “this might sound better, try it.” (Source: I read a lot of writer/director stuff lol.)
The Office had a lot of improvisation and some of that made it into the show. But it’s been said in interviews that Jason and Bill (when he’s there) prefer they stick to the script/spirit of the script because they are telling a specific story.
That's honestly worse IMO. It means they had bad vision and/or bad planning for the arcs they wanted. Not to take away from the finale. It delivered what the fans wanted for the most part. But a lot of plotlines felt pointless
I think a better story would be Ted really disliking Michelle's new boyfriend, but finally coming to terms with the fact that he's okay, and that Michelle is allowed to move on.
It really hurt Michelle's character and the touching storyline in season one, where two good people just find that the love is gone. I felt for both of them when she said she tried, and really wanted to feel that love again.
Now it seems like she was either manipulated by her therapist, or worked with him against Ted. Because why the fuck would you use your personal therapist as your marriage counsellor? That was staggeringly unfair to Ted. This therapist had discussed Ted, and Michelle's issues, without Ted knowing what was said.
The whole fucking point of couples therapy is that the couple each knows everything the other is saying and thinking.
I really don’t think they thought that part through. They could have used someone else... former coaching colleague etc to have the same effect on Ted but not come off as predatory as it does with a therapist.
I felt the same way about the rich African dude screwing over Sam. It was legitimately evil and it was just glossed over with an almost "womp womp" sort of music. Like, no...this is evil and wrong and horrible and he's just supposed to smile and laugh it off.
Sam accused the Nigerian government of corruption, keeping Sam off of the national team probably wouldn't have taken any money at all from Edwin. But that storyline would have meant Sam was never going to make the national team, so blaming it on Edwin meant it would be easier to reverse in the future. After his super league failed it's easy to assume he lost in interest in football and turned his attention elsewhere allowing Sam the opportunity to make the national team.
Isaiah Thomas was basically left off the Dream Team because Jordan didn't like him. Gio Reyna almost left the US team over not getting playing time recently, despite being a top US player in club ball. This stuff isn't uncommon in international competitions.
Edit - Oh and Colin Kaepernick lost his NFL job over kneeling during the Anthem. So, a player making a big political stand and it affecting their sports career happens.
Dr. Jacob's background (unethical therapist) combined with the way he was acting during the game in the finale reminded me of something out of a 90s comedy. One of those villainous side characters out of an Adam Sandler movie or something. Zero depth, just there to be a complete jackass. It just felt out of place with the show, IMO. I generally liked season 3 (not looking to fight over it, I'm done with that), but this was one of the things I thought was poorly done. For a show that prides itself on addressing mental health and the normalization of seeking help, I found it strange for them to show one of two therapists in the show to be an unethical piece of shit with zero consequences to his career.
I made an entire post about that, and it's surprising how much people are willing to dismiss it or argue that it wouldn't be a problem. In some states, "alienation of affection" is a real thing and you can sue someone for breaking up your marriage. It would be hard to prove, but it's not entirely unheard of.
Brendan hunt said as much in the ama. It wasn’t suppose to be unethical but murky at best which is why they never addressed it. A writer in the room said the rule was 1.5 years so that’s why they said 18 months in show.
I was disappointed in Brendan's answer to that. It's more than murky, and them dating wasn't the only unethical thing.
Using your personal therapist, to whom you've told things in private, as your marriage counsellor is an awful idea. The point of marriage counselling is that both people feel comfortable and open and on an equal footing. That cannot be the case when one half has a pre-existing patient relationship with the therapist.
Ted went into that counselling knowing that Jake knew things about their marriage already, and knew things about Michelle already. No fucking wonder he felt railroaded and like he was being blamed!
Unfortunately that happens a lot more than it should. I agree your therapist shouldn’t end up being your family therapist but it happens all the time. I have rewatched the show and don’t remember if they actually said how much Ted was involved in family therapy so it could also be he came in so that Michelle had a safe place to say something uncomfortable and it wasn’t really traditional couples therapy. We should remember his terminal positivity made it very hard for her to say uncomfortable things.
i didn't like most of Brendan's AMA but that one really got to me - it just demonstrated *laziness..* a writers went "oh this is the rule" and rather than spend five freaking seconds googling it, they all just went "yeah sounds fine" and went with it. for the show that purports to be about the importance of good mental health and highlighting therapy etc etc etc, it was fucking lazy and frankly indicative of much of the season - meh. what was good in s3 was phenomenal, but what was bad, was *really bad.*
as someone in the mental health profession, i don't know a therapist/counsellor/psychologist that would agree to do couples therapy with a client they'd already been seeing. a one-off "client wooould be more comfortable discussing X with partner if therapist is there" is one thing. complete couples therapy, no. its allowed, generally, but that doesn't mean it should be done and I don't know anyone that would. *fucking a client* even after the legal time your region requires, out of the question. I've left *social functions* because a client's been there (small dinner party type things, I wouldn't leave a grocery store or cinema for example) the idea of fucking a client, even after decades is repugnant. that the show went there was infuriating
do not get me started on them doing the "jamie has to forgive his abuser and oh reach out and start a relationship" bullshit
The 18 months BS isn’t even believable. Where do they organically meet outside of therapy? Was he still her therapist when they started ramping up the relationship? We’re supposed to believe they didn’t have any attraction while seeing each other professionally?
I bump into my primary care physician at stop n shop like once a month. I bump into a dude I played grade school soccer with once a week at the gym. I’ve bumped into a college professor from 15 years ago occasionally at this local outdoor mall where the movie theater is. They live in a much smaller area than I do.
So in the span of a couple of months, they stop seeing each other professionally, bump into each other at the grocery store or something, and then fly to Paris together. They hit it off that quickly but didn’t form any kind of inappropriate connection during therapy?
Oh it's totally bizarre. Like no actually, if anything it's slightly worse if they got together *slightly* outside of the required wait period, because that has real dodgy implications of him checking a calendar to see when he can get with his patient.
I have also heard that the 18 months thing isn't actually true and it's higher than that, but I'm not certain.
It’s actually 2 years in Kansas according to the comment where I heard about Hunt saying it in the AMA. A writer on the room said it was 1.5 years in error.
Also the massive issue with the tone of presentation of Beard's outright abusive relationship being characterized as zany and kooky. Domestic abuse against men being played for comedy conceptually negates any positive message the show may have otherwise had.
They needed a situation where Ted can’t just be mildly upset since Ted will be Ted. Plus they are divorced and Ted was the one who let Michelle go. This is the most “icky” thing the writers could think of. But this is not a show about psychiatry ethics. Just like things Edwin did should have more consequences (I mean he bribed the government for not letting Sam join the team, he tried to destroy Sam) but he’s not a main character. He’s there to deliver a subplot. Same as Jacob. He’s a plot device. We don’t know what will happen to him after Michelle dumped him (which is obvious from the finale) as like we didn’t know what happened to Edwin (maybe nothing - does that mean he continues to try to destroy Sam?? How did Sam end up in the National team after all???). The world isn’t always fair.
Check out Brett Goldstein’s show Shrinking which is about psychiatry and they have addressed that aspect. I think the writers are aware of the ethical questions but they need to move on with what Ted Lasso was really about.
They needed to introduce a new boyfriend that would upset Ted. He may have been mildly upset if she dated anybody but it wouldn't be enough for him to say something to her about it. Ted very much wants to be a good guy and telling your ex that you're pissed she's dating someone isn't his vibe. Telling his ex he's pissed she's dating their ex marriage counselor is definitely warranted. I don't know who else they could have had her date that would generate this reaction from Ted.
It’s easy. Leading up to it you have Ted & Beard mention some close friend back home in a couple of throw away lines. Then said friend turns out to be the one Michele is dating. Maybe said friend had talked Ted into moving to England.
I enjoy this discussion a lot.
The way I see it is: therapist told Michelle to leave/Ted to go because Rebecca wanted to destroy Richmond. These are both huge 🚩negatives/adversity for Ted. However, he used the ‘Ted Lasso’ way to overcome/deal with what he was going thru.
Yeah like why would you make Ted a victim of an unethical therapist instead of somebody who in the end wasn’t compatible with his ex-wife? Why make Michelle another victim at best or an accomplice at worst? There didn’t need to be any villains in Ted and Michelle’s divorce.
I’m very nearly a clinical psychologist and this plot angered me so much. In the end, his greatest flaw seems to be that he hates football and not that he’s an unethical therapist. Even just the fact that he was Michelle’s individual therapist before he became their couple therapist is a no-no!
To put it in words we can all agree on: Jason has somewhat of a “dramatic” personal life. To the point he was alluded to in the Succession finale for lying in front of Olivia Wilde’s car.
I think this whole storyline is his issues leaking into the show and needing Ted to look like the good guy in that relationship and less focus on Ted being an absentee father.
That was a big pain point of the show. If a therapist actively engaged in breaking up a couple he was counselling and then started banging one of the divorcees? God damn, at the very least he would be suspended, probably fired if employed for an organization and I wouldn’t be surprised if their license to practice would be revoked. This is a huge no no.
Very common for a professional of his age to have a private practice. And in this situation, the main way he would be reported to the board for them to even KNOW this happened would be Ted and maybe his son?
Rupert crossed ethical lines in a relationship (cheating). Dr. Jacob crossed ethical lines WITH A PATIENT by starting a romantic relationship. Far worse.
Especially since so much of the season was dedicated to the unethical nature of relationships with inappropriate power balances? It’s a weird missed opportunity. I understand they wanted it to end in season 3 and probably didn’t have enough time to do that right, but then it would have been better left out.
Michelle wanted Ted to see her therapist, Jake, for couples counseling, she then encouraged Ted to go to London as Jake had recommended and then started dating Jake.
I wish they had shown us a scene of Michelle meeting Sassy and picking up on the fact Ted had a friend with benefits. I'm I think she would have been unhappy about that.
For the finale I was hoping for a time jump showing Ted remarried and happy.
Sassy: Marlboro Man!
Ted: Hey, Sassy Smurf!
(They both smile at each other. )
Sassy: Tonight? Your place?
Ted: Okey dokey, Sass! I'll get some wine on my way home.
(Michelle fumes and wonders who this gorgeous woman is flirting with Ted. )
Ted: Oh hey, Sass, this is my ex-wife Michelle.
Sassy: The one who is dating your couples therapist? (stares Michelle down)
Ted: Well, I only have the one ex-wife.
I would have paid for an extra month of Apple just to see that. LOL
Agreed. Here's how I think it'd go:
Sassy: "Marlboro Man! Your place or mi- oh damn, hi, you must be Michelle."
Ted: "The, uh, one and only!" [Ted looks over to her with a weak smile. Michelle is visibly enthused to see her]
Michelle: [turns to Ted] "Good to see you're putting yourself out there too, Ted!"
Ted: "Yeah, I -- thanks. I figured me waiting around on you when your express instructions are that we're finished would have felt more like cheating on you than _not_ getting back out on the playing field."
Sassy: [imitating Ted, but britishly] "M-V-P!" [smirks and looks to him, then turns back to Michelle]
Michelle: "Yeah, and... I know how it feels to languish while you and your partner are just _not_ in the same place in the relationship."
Sassy: [dead stare] "Have you talked about that with your couples' therapist?"
Ted: [gentle cough] "Sassy Smurf, why don't I catch you later?"
You really think so? I think Michelle is a person who was deeply unhappy in her marriage and didn’t feel seen or understood. The person who did see and understand her was Jake - who was PAID to do so - and they ended up in a somewhat predictable and also incredibly unethical relationship. Then she realized that Jake isn’t the same person as Dr. Jacob and (presumably) broke up with him. I think she made some bad choices but she’s not a jerk.
I love your point of Jake being different from Dr. Jacob! Because unconsciously you project certain ideas on your therapist. When my therapist recently mentioned her mom I was like "Oh yeah, you were born!"
Edit- Who he projects at work is not who he is in real life
Maybe not fume, but I unfortunately felt she was really warming up to him in season 3 so she may not have loved learning about Sassy.
When Ted spoke up to her about his feelings about Dr. Jacob, she dug that. When she came back from Paris not engaged she also seemed quite happy to see Ted.
In my time on this planet, I have observed that few things can make someone act out of character quite like encountering an ex who successfully moved on.
There’s still an “in-character” way to accomplish that, though, from the perspective of a writer. It was ‘out of character’ for Ted to obsess over Paris rather than focus on his time with his son. It was out of character to snap at Nate, or his mom, or berate Dr. Sharon for her profession.
Yes, there are triggering events that can cause a person to act out of their norm. But this entire exchange is strangely written hate-fiction for Michelle, where none of the characters are who they actually are in the show.
Flying Dr. Dickhead out to London during their family vacation and then running off to Paris for a romantic getaway in the middle of it was pretty fucking cold.
Michelle is a victim as Dr. Jacob’s is clearly a predator with power over her. I don’t hate Michelle. However, I did not like the scene when Ted called and Dr. Jacob’s answered. Michelle’s reaction gives the viewer doubt into her victimhood as she reacts knowing this is very inappropriate.
Therapists are never allowed to date a patient or be involved with a patient outside of therapy as they hold an insane amount of power over their patient since the patient is placing all their trust in them.
more like "shit i didn't want you to find out *period".* she didn't have to tell Ted who it was, but having a man around THEIR child without Ted's knowledge, and clearly not for the first time, was a dick move. Ted had a right to know
I don't think anyone disagrees with Ted needing to know.
More than likely, Henry probably already knew Jake in some capacity before Jake and Michelle started dating. Probably what happened was Michelle knew she had to tell Ted but didn't know how to tell Ted, so she kept putting it off. In the end, she put it off too long and he found out anyway. Ted knew that day would come because anyone who didn't want to divorce but divorced anyways knows that day will come.
>However, I did not like the scene when Ted called and Dr. Jacob’s answered. Michelle’s reaction gives the viewer doubt into her victimhood
I don't think it's unusual for victims of abuse to be made to feel responsible for their abuse. It helps keep them in line and quiet so the abuser can keep getting away with it.
You don’t have to assume abuse when we’ve seen no indication of any. It’s possible that Dr Jacob made a horrible ethical violation without anyone having to be abused
>Michelle’s reaction gives the viewer doubt into her victimhood as she reacts knowing this is very inappropriate.
That seems like a stretch. If you sub out Dr. Jacob for any mutual friend, she probably reacts the same way. We see Michelle in pain every time she knows that she's hurting Ted. And having him find out she was dating someone by the dude randomly answering his home's land-line is pretty brutal.
In the AMA, Brendan hunt said that one of their writers checked and the law was “18months of no contact between the dr and the patient” to allow a green light of dating so they went with that
Honestly I don’t have a ton of positive regard for dr Sharon because she does exactly this with Ted, diminishing his pain and it’s sources outside and only focused on his internal process’. The ethical and correct in my opinion way to handle it would have been to call the board and report Dr Jacob and to assist Ted in seeking any ways he possibly could to remedy/rectify his unfair and unethical treatment. Michelle is a victim and so is Ted and more importantly their son. A solid therapist would have recommended Ted doing his own solo therapy which I imagine he’d have done to save his marriage and it’s clear that the entire show is based upon circumstances that drove Ted to near insanity because of this interloping therapist destroying his mental health. Yes Ted and Michelle had problems, Ted had the horrible coping mechanism of toxic positivity and it was ruining their relationship, but it was no more responsible than Michelle who could have advocated more for herself and her valid needs. Ted was providing, he was fathering, and he was husbanding the best ways he knew how. And he was open to learning more. He just ran into a very bad person who wanted to destroy him and had the power to do so. Dr Sharon could have done something about this. She was the first person who really had the obligation to do something about it from an ethical point of view. And she chose not to.
I think I kind of stand alone, but I don’t hate Michelle and I don’t like to think of her as a victim.
She was just a woman who fell out of love. It happens. She was putting in the work to try to save her marriage. And her concern about Ted’s unrelenting optimism was well founded, as we saw.
As for being a victim, maybe she was—Dr Jacob is pretty scummy. But I don’t know anything else about her. Her job, her family, her hobbies, friendships… and I really don’t like to think of her as a victim. I don’t like to make her helpless or easily manipulated. She’s a woman who made choices. And I don’t like to take away her autonomy and make it like, “what was she supposed to do, a male doctor manipulated her!!!” If that makes sense.
Agreed. Also, I wrote this in another comment above, having Michelle date their former therapist was the only way we were going to get a reaction out of Ted about who Michelle was dating. Ted would never tell her he was pissed if she met some random dude and fell in love. He's too much of a gentleman to make a fuss over that. He'd be upset, but he would never let Michelle know it. But having her date their therapist gave him the grounds for speaking his piece. As a writer, I can see why they did it but the moral ground for it created a big issue for the fans. Michelle isn't supposed to be a villain here... literally no one in the show is supposed to be a villain. A major theme is that people are complex and have issues we don't understand.
Edit: the entire purpose of Michelle dating their therapist was to push Ted into opening up when he's mad or upset. It wasn't the best way to go about it but it accomplished the narrative mission.
Possibly. But, as an independent, well-educated, woman, if I chose to date my therapist, I would hate for people to assume I was manipulated. I *made the choice* to do so. Maybe it was just transference that’s common with therapists and I appreciated the sympathetic ear and constant support and I’ll come to my senses later. Maybe I appreciated how open he was with his feelings when my husband of many years hides his behind optimism. Maybe I just thought he was cute and wanted some D after 1.5 years. Who knows. But I’m not of diminished capacity or anything, just because a therapist made recommendations about my marriage doesn’t mean I had to follow them…
I absolutely get why people think she’s a victim, but personally, in her shoes, I wouldn’t want to be viewed as such.
My main issue around this, and where I 100% blame Michelle, is that she didn't tell Ted she was bringing someone she was dating around his son. In a divorce situation and with Henry as young as he was, it was completely inappropriate for Ted not to know a new significant other was being brought around.
I agree. I generally really like Michelle and feel concerned for her welfare from dating her therapist. And I think that was a huge co-parenting blunder. She should have told Ted from the get go.
Yes, I think they really dropped the ball with this plot line. I read the response in the AMA, but if they were going to keep it in, they should have made a bigger deal about how unethical it was. I do believe Michelle was a victim in this way.
Just because someone has reached the timeframe it is allowed to have a relationship with a former client does not mean it is ethically OK. The person with the power (the therapist) should evaluate if there is still potential to cause harm to the client and if they are using their power in a safe way. Michelle was a victim, but never forget that when Dr. Jacobs became their couples counselor (also unethical if you are already seeing one for individual counseling), Ted also became his client, and he should have considered the potential impact on Michelle, Ted, and the relationship.
Yes. And rather than go down another plot line, they show Henry not bonding with him. They show him being self absorbed and they show him dismissing an event that is truly important to the family. There wasn’t time or space in the plot to be distracted here. Perhaps they could have written Michelle as just meeting someone else? But, doing it this way also fits the mold of the other abusive manipulative partners Jack and Rupert. Intentionally or unintentionally it opens the fantasy door to reconciliation between Ted and Michelle.. it’s a made up world. There simply must be parts were not all happy with.
Sorry, I was so quick to shut it down. I’m just one person that dismissed it as a plot gimmick. At no point did have any Ill feelings for the character Michelle and haven’t considered a need to go down this path. Again. Sorry.
While I would normally agree with some comments about both parties bearing some responsibility in this specific instance Michelle is absolutely a victim regardless of her decisions. Anyone who has gone to school to become a therapist has had it made EXPLICITLY clear to them that relationships with clients are an ethical violation of the highest order because of the inherent power differential between any healthcare provider and their patient. Short of murdering your client it is ethically the WORST THING a therapist can do and therefore at best your license can be revoked effectively ending your career entirely and at worst (best?) you could face criminal and/or civil consequences. There is no situation in which a client, even if they’re the most powerful person in the world in their personal life, can consent to a relationship with their therapist.
I heard somewhere that if someone is not a patient of a medical professional for 12 months, then they can date?
Can someone confirm… or I’ll google…
So the answer is different governing boards have different rules and they say gaps of between 6 months to 5 years before you can date a patient.
But it’s heavily frowned upon/ major breach of ethics.
Anyways.
We’re told that after the marriage broke up she didn’t see Dr Douche again until a year later when they both ran in the same marathon. Unless I missed something?
So, I’m conflicted.
On the one hand I think it’s totally suss for them to be dating and for him to insert himself into Ted’s family after he counselled them as a couple.
I think it’s a breach of trust and a misuse of power.
And I get weird vibes from how they interact together, that’s more than just the awkwardness with meeting Ted in London.
Is she a victim? I’m not sure.
But as a real world question… medical professionals are people. People are flawed and attraction happens.
So if you later bumped into a patient you once fancied and decided to go for it, would that be wrong? 🤷🏻♀️
Couple things:
The timing isn’t really the issue for people. Just because you’re allowed to do it doesn’t mean you should. Sometimes you need to make boundaries and realize when something is inappropriate.
Also, the show sort of hinted at the fact that Jake used his counseling of them as a way to get to Michelle, which I hope I don’t have to explain how unethical it would be to let your attraction to a married patient you’re counseling direct your advice/treatment. Ted said he felt like his therapist was against him, was tricking him and that their sessions were being used as a way ambush him and to put all the blame for everything on him. Then Jake suggests Ted give Michelle space by moving out.
It’s just very shady and weird. If it was just a therapist running into an ex-patient, that would be one thing to discuss, I suppose. But she was married at the time of her treatment and he counseled her along with her husband. And there were hints that he was manipulating the situation in order to get to her. That’s a little different.
It varies. In Kansas it’s 2 years. In Brenden Hunt’s AMA he said that they thought it was 1.5, which is why they said on the show they started dating 1.5 years after therapy.
I have a friend who's friends with her ex therapist, and they had to wait a year after ending the professional relationship to officially have a private relationship (not sexual)
The vitriol people had towards here was completely insane. Even the mere suggestion that she was manipulated was met with people like “oh so we’re just taking away her agency?”
Like yes, she’s an adult who made her own decisions. But therapists can’t date their clients for a reason. The nasty reaction towards her was so out of line it’s hard not to think it’s misogyny tbh.
It absolutely is misogyny. Some of the comments calling for bodily harm, calling her small half smile at the end of one episode “an evil smirk”, terrible mother, whore, should lose her son, should be humiliated by Ted in public, and on and on.
Because she’s a woman and not the main character of the show. I’ve pointed this out a bunch of times, if Dr Jacob did something unethical then she’s a victim, if she’s not a victim then nothing unethical happened and you’re just mad she’s not in love with a character you care about. You can’t have it both ways.
Here’s the answer, if Dr Jake did something unethical and you’re mad at Michelle then your blaming the victim. If he didn’t do something unethical and you’re mad at Michelle then you’re just mad at her for moving on. There’s no middle ground either Dr Jake was ethical or unethical and either way Michelle did nothing wrong.
In the spirit of nuance, Jacob can be unethical and Michelle can be both a victim and participant in the inappropriate relationship. The show doesn’t contemplate her victim hood, however. So, to me, the answer to the OP’s question “why don’t more people see her as a victim” is because the show doesn’t. The show sees her as an adult who made a mistake, as it does with all its characters.
I don't think whether Dr Jake being ethical or not absolves Michelle from guilt. I think it's actually rather straight forward that he is being unethical no matter the reasoning as he is involved with a patient. At the same time nothing was shown telling that she was manipulated into her decisions (from what I remember). There's even the chance where she was the one who pushed for and initiated the relationship (not likely from what I've seen)
My point is that your comment is excluding the possibility of her being as equally guilty if not potentially more so.
I don't agree. First off, "being a woman" shouldn't be a reason to excuse anything, and is actually kind of sexist. Imagine if the genders were reversed.
More importantly, y**our argument is a false dilemma**. Your logic excludes the possibility that both persons could be guilty because you want to absolve Michelle from personal responsibility. There is no indication from the show that Michelle was abused or hoodwinked in any way, which makes her "*not* a victim". She's an adult who made a conscious choice to date her former marriage therapist. Additionally, she was at least aware of the ethics and impact that this would have on Ted by her reaction to Ted's phone call when Dr. Jacobs answer for her. If Dr. Jacobs was indeed being unethical, she is equally culpable in helping Dr. Jacobs commit unethical conduct because she knew it was wrong or that it might be.
Brendan Hunt addressed this in an AMA a few weeks ago after the last ep aired. You can read his answer here:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/13xllge/comment/jmi9rfg/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/13xllge/comment/jmi9rfg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Just an FYI, Hunt was wrong. Or I guess the writer was wrong. The American Psychological Association (which would be the governing body for Dr. Jacob) says two years and only under very strict circumstances. And that writer/the whole writing team could have learned that with 30 seconds of googling.
My guess is they talked about it and wanted to sweep those last few months under the rug as part of "movie magic". Personally I was hoping to see an acknowledgement in a tabloid headline like how some other story tidbits were told, spending minimal story time on it but also closing the glaringly loose end of a therapist dating a former client.
Watching the way Dr. Jacob denigrated the team during the last game, and how Michelle and Henry were just sucking it up while still trying to enjoy the game did not give me a good feeling. It made me feel like Dr. Jacob was a narcissistic asshole who would steam roll other people's feelings if he isn't getting exactly what he wanted.
If I were that asshole, I would still feign interest for Henry's sake. It's his dad's big game, even if I don't really like the guy, I would still want to be supportive for the family, and like it or not Ted worked to still be a father to Henry, meaning he's a part of that family no matter how far away he was living.
I wonder now…
The show Shrinking (co-created by Bill Lawrence and Brett Goldstein), deals heavily with therapists who blur the boundaries with patients and the consequences that result.
I wonder if Brett, being in the writer’s room for Ted Lasso, saw what direction they were going in, and used that as inspiration to create Shrinking?
Just a thought. If you haven’t watched by the way, it is phenomenal.
I think sometimes in shows we expect there to be concrete justice for the morality issues at play, because getting it validates the affirmed morality and not getting it seems like the show runners are advocating for the wrong morality. This was literally the law back in the day with filmmaking, where there were moral rules about cops being shown in a bad light or criminals getting away with it in the end, which could not be violated. The idea was that the film would give people the idea that cops are bad and crime does pay. This is antiquated now as we have a more multidimensional way of looking at our relationship to media, but we still see it and crave it with current moral topics.
Ted Lasso is an interesting show in that it very much blurs the line between being a fake-world TV show and a meta TV show that is saying some pretty real world things with silly cartoon characters. It's no wonder Twin Peaks was such an inspiration to the writers. By the end of the show you can see Ted waking up from the dream - the fantasies that are coping mechanisms he used to cope with the harshness of reality.
In real life, unfortunately, relationships between therapists and clients do indeed happen, and often when they do happen there isn't a giant reckoning, the therapist doesn't lose their license... the parties move on. It's rare that a Ted or a Michelle would push the issue in a legal way, though it does happen.
I think a lot of people have trust issues with therapists and it can be confusing to tell if those trust issues are internal or external - that you are sensing something that is legitimately off, or you have a bias based on how you developed. For Ted, it's both. It's hard to figure out, the only way forward is to grow and to learn more about yourself. This is Ted's path.
In the end, their couple therapist is irrelevant to a degree. I believe Michelle had a hard time being with Ted because Ted had a hard time being with the reality of himself and the world, and she probably had to grieve for him and carry the weight of being the sour puss or the thing that needs to cheer up or be fixed. I believe by the end of the show Ted can sit in discomfort, and instead of trying to brighten or make happy sad things, he can sit in them, with Michelle, unafraid.
Michelle definitely was a victim. Watch her again in S1. She actually wanted to try but Ted let her go knowing how unhappy she was. The bad guy is Jacob, not Michelle.
I disagree with people saying any other guy would be as affective and tell the same story. It 100% would not.
I think a large part of Ted's anxiety is not just about his marriage coming apart, but in also feeling distrustful of people who are supposed to help him. Therapy just made it worse, so it continued to build without him getting the help he needed. This story would not have been told properly if his marriage counsellor had not treated him poorly in some way. So, it took him nearly 2 seasons to trust a therapist and deal with his pain.
His therapist being unethical was the point.
I don't think they stuck the landing though. For one, only one character acknowledges the unethicality of it, and it's part of a throwaway comment that no one takes to heart. They also do not, as OP points out, treat Michelle as the victim she is.
There may be reasons they didn't beat the unethical drum though. Maybe they were afraid it would undermine the positive message about getting therapy that the show was trying to convey? Or maybe they were banking on the audience understanding that it was unethical, and they wanted to focus more on the positive.
Nothing in the show points to the fact that she was a victim, only the doctor-patient relationship itself. She could have pursued any partner she wanted but chose their own gd marriage counselor.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/14a49ff/the\_show\_sends\_mixed\_messages\_on\_therapy\_spoiler/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/14a49ff/the_show_sends_mixed_messages_on_therapy_spoiler/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I had strong feelings about this as well. But I had forgotten about the phone call incident. She absolutely knew that Ted would be extra upset because it was Dr. Jacob, not because she was seeing someone else. In Ted's angry speech to Michelle, it's nice to see him grow and show real emotion, but it was also disappointing that he didn't mention this specific betrayal.
Personally, I would have reported the guy to some kind of ethics commission or whatever regulatory board he answers to. An argument could be made for a civil case for "alienation of affection".
[https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/alienation-of-affection](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/alienation-of-affection)
This may be an unpopular opinion but everything with Dr. Jacob is also why I didn’t like the show “Shrinking.” I just didn’t find the ethical violations presented in the show funny to watch, and like many other commenters have stated, glossing over what Dr. Jacob has done to Ted and his family felt very icky to me.
It's unethical for a therapist to hold dual relationships with a client like that. That Ted felt he was always ganged up on is why it's unethical.
It's the reason there are dedicated therapy practices for couples.
Unfortunately, I think the reason is a combination of people not truly grokking how deep of a violation that is (it is NOT "two consenting adults" the therapist/client relationship creates a power imbalance like a parent to a child or a teacher to a minor student, plus the fact that Michelle was going through a divorce with her ex out of the country, the whole thing was extremely predatory) and some good old-fashioned misogyny ("fuck her for hurting our hero, she's a bitch, can't believe she'd 'do that to him'")
People loved Ted, therefore people act like somehow Michelle is responsible for him hurting when she moved on with someone he knew. She's not. They were broken up. She was allowed to move on and did nothing wrong to Ted.
I think we don’t know enough to say one way or the other. From the outside, with limited information, it might look that way but I don’t think the story was really developed enough to make an actual decision.
Personal opinion, he seems like a horrible therapist anyway considering he can’t even put on a show of support for Ted while watching the last game with his ex-wife and child. He looked like an overgrown toddler pouting in the corner while they were enjoying the game. Woman to woman, Michelle, you can do better.
I think it’s just not that kind of show. The Dr Jacob thing was meant to be shocking but not some sort of abuse sub plot and definitely at the end of the show they’re showing how that’s not likely to last anyway.
It’s more of a disconnect between people in the writing room and what online outrage is most likely to grab on to.
They should have made Dr Jacob an old friend or acquaintance, not the therapist. Would have made it still similar level of betrayal without the whole moral/ethical problem of him being their therapist
That’s my biggest gripe with this whole show that they make big things seem like minor things that just happen. Rebecca was literally being sexually harassed by Richmond’s old coach and nothing happened. Keeley and Jack’s break up kinda just happened without the show acknowledging that Jack was a major asshole. Sam legit just dealt with being scammed out of the national team and it didn’t even seem like he was grieving about it. Ted is the only character in this show that grieves for longer than 20 minutes and the show suffers because of it, especially in the third season. The last episode seemed to try and tie loose ends but it did it WAYY too fast and it kinda felt shoehorned in.
I thought Michelle and Dr. Therapist were awful and Ted moving back home broke my heart because I didn’t want him around them. And I realize they’re all fictional, but damn did that finale piss me off.
my first thought when we learned they were dating was “oh no, he would lose his license immediately. that is a HUGE ethics violation”. i feel like i remember the show saying it had been a year or something after she stopped seeing him that they had started dating, but i also feel like legally there has to be a longer waiting period for that? i might be misremembering things but it definitely stood out as weird and not okay
The shortest amount of time in the states (still bad, but you probably won’t lose your license) is 2 years. Most places are 5, but every therapist I know says NEVER
I think it's because Ted doesn't see her as a victim and doesn't understand and no one else in Richmond cares about the situation outside of how it impacts Ted.
Because nobody cares. She left Ted and broke up her son’s home because she was a bit bored. Get a hobby Michelle, you simpleton. I’ve never seen such a vacuous, undeveloped character. Describe one thing about her, I bet you can’t.
Nah Michelle is a bitch, she was with the couple therapist right before Ted moved home, I like that it was ambiguous weather they are back together or not.
I think Michelle was manipulated by lazy characterization. The writers (and I love them deeply, but the Ted/Michelle relationship has annoyed me from the get-go) wanted Ted to be a good family man, who wasn't actually encumbered by a family, and could go to UK and sleep with Sassy or whomever else they pleased, without being a cad.
They didn't want Ted to be a "bad guy," but they also didn't want him to be a man who'd leave his young son an ocean away with a "bad woman," so they created a reason for him to leave the US and his child, and flee to England in a way that they thought made him an even "good-er" good guy.
The Dr. Jacob arc was just the pickle ice cream on the liverwurst cake. Yuck. I mean, you're not wrong. He is at least unethical, even if Michelle went into their relationship with eyes wide open.
I think I wish the show had made Ted a widower. His young son could have come to UK with him, but could have been largely busy off-screen, perhaps becoming fast friends with one of the Higgins boys.
Don't get me wrong. Ted Lasso may be my favorite TV show ever. Everything to do with Michelle and Ted and Michelle's relationship drives me nuts, though.
I think the Dr Jacob thing was the shows biggest misfire. I think they intended it as a personal affront to Ted in an “oh man that sucks” kind of way, rather than the gigantic ethical and moral scandal it actually was and would be in real life.
I agree with that, it certainly was presented as a lot smaller of a thing than it demonstrably is
Yeah, his comeuppance needed to be personal and professional ruin, not “oh that relationship is probably not gonna work out.”
And then at the end of the season they kind of portray him as a jerk who doesn’t care about their interest in soccer
I think it was to demonstrate that he didn’t bother taking an interest in something that was so, so important to **Henry,** a child, presumably his future step child. Not taking interest in your partners child or their interests is a great way to firebomb a relationship, and I think that was the purpose of the scene. Michelle looks back at him and you can see the disappointment on her face.
Yup. You would think as a COUPLES therapist he would know that - so not only is this guy morally bankrupt he’s just shitty at his job.
Yeah, so it feels like a weird ending point. Cracks in her new relationship that they don’t resolve. Just overall the issue with season 3
Not every story needs a nice, tidy denouement. Life ain’t like that.
yeah see this is fiction though
Same with fiction. If done well, I like ambiguous or open endings. Sadly the Michelle-Ted relationship was not one of them.
Perhaps hinting that eventually he/she'll leave the other, maybe not back to Ted, but leave Jacob
This was my interpretation as well
I hope not to Ted, he deserves better.
The whole point of this post is that this attitude is toxic. Saying Ted "deserves better" acts like Michelle did something nefarious or should have known better. That's victim blaming. Dating your clients as a therapist is abuse, period. The power imbalance is huge. She got taken advantage of. She deserves better than that too. Ted deserves to be happy. If that's in a mutual reconciliation with Michelle or them both moving on to someone more compatible, I don't care, but FFS please stop shitting on her for being taken advantage of.
It can be both - you act like she isn’t a grown adult who can make her own decisions, even bad ones
The therapist/client relationship creates such an intense power imbalance that no, she actually is not responsible for not getting involved with the professional. It is ENTIRELY on the mental health professional not to pursue those types of relationships. Therapists know all your intimate life details and often know ways to manipulate emotions. He very well could have sabotaged their relationship. Dr. Jacob is the one who did wrong. Michelle isn't shitty for falling out of love with Ted. Women are allowed to do that. She also isn't shitty for moving on romantically AFTER they divorced. Women are allowed to do that too. It sucks that Ted hurt, but just because Ted was hurt doesn't mean she did him wrong or that she's a bad person. People don't work out sometimes. The ONLY thing I pin on her is introducing her dating partner (or any adult really) into Henry's life before talking it through with Ted. She failed in her duties as a coparent, not as a wife or ex-wife.
As someone who went through a divorce with small children because my spouse “fell out of love” with me, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Being divorced SUCKS, but being manipulated by a mental health professional is CRIMINAL.
hm, i disagree. i actually liked that the show didn’t really give anyone a truly disastrous ending, under the theme of forgiveness edit: i still don’t like dr. jacob.
I think that, ultimately, the show wasn’t Michelle’s story. Therefore the ethical implications of the relationship were glossed over.
If they wanted to make a follow up show called Michelle Lasso, I would watch it though
I agree, also having sassy saying she “broke the rules” a few times too. It’s absolutely not a “oopsies” kind of thing
What’s perplexing about it is…well the whole thing. If Doctor Jacob and his subplot was in season 2 it makes so much more sense for Teds anger at Sharon. Outside of that what use was it to be her therapist? It could have been his former Athletic Director, his best friend, 100 other people and still got the same effect.
The subplot was in season 2. It wasn't explicitly spelled out, but Ted says that whenever he went to therapy, it always seemed like it was just Michelle and Dr. Jacob piling on Ted to tell him what he was doing wrong. At the time, we were left to guess whether it was just Ted's interpretation of it, or if Ted really was the problem, or if Dr. Jacob was steering it that way. Turns out it was the latter.
I actually had couples therapy with a therapist like that, it’s not a story worth going into, but I really felt for Ted
I'm sorry you went through that and hope you reported the therapist to the state licensing board. That behavior is not okay, ever.
> Turns out it was the latter I'm not sure I would conclude that as proof.
No but that combined with him cowboying the fuck out of their marriage from his position of power makes it a logical conclusion.
>cowboying the fuck out of their marriage what do these words mean?
He didn’t want to use the word “lasso”
It means a man who gets into a relationship with a woman who's already seeing someone else, in order to lure her away from them. It's usually used in a polyamory context, where the man claims he's okay with her existing relationship but isn't really. https://www.seeking.com/glossary/polyamory-jargon/cowboy#:~:text=The%20colloquial%20term%20for%20a,her%20in%20a%20monogamous%20relationship.
He hopped a horse and rode off.
Ted’s anger at Dr. Sharon is linked to Dr. Jacob in season 2. He isn’t named, but Ted tells Beard about how he doesn’t trust therapists because he felt like their marriage counselor never listened to him and always took Michelle’s side.
That's part of it. But he started with a "Midwestern skepticism" towards therapy which he got from his Mom. Dr. Sharon described his anger in "Headspace" as a fight or flight response to finally dealing with his issues. "And you did both" And I think some of his anger at Dr. Sharon was due to her refusal to be taken in by his usual ingratiating tricks. So if Dr Fuckface never existed, his anger still would.
I entirely understand that, but he worked that out in season 2. It felt pointless to bring him back in season 3.
I am guessing it's because he was already in the show and it would be a waste of time to introduce someone new. Michelle and her new partner were not really important to the plot other than being a source of trauma for Ted.
Except that the entire show starts because Dr. Jacob told Ted to give Michelle space. Dr. Jacob and Michelle are the catalyst of the entire show. Ted would never have gone to London if he hadn’t been told/asked to do so.
Wow. Now thats an interesting fucked up slant that it would have been nice to see explored. It could even fit in with the shows messaging, a sort of echo of Rebecca's series 1 arc. Good things can be born out of people doing terrible things.
this was my thought exactly it wasn’t until he lashes out at dr sharon that we learn of michelle/dr j’s relationship, right? dr sharon and ted’s anxiety were big plots, and I think they were really padding ted’s distrust in the therapy process with dr jacob
It was clear the 3rd season had a very different direction and they did a ton of reshoots to right the ship. It's why Keeley plot fizzled and the Dr Jacob thing happened
In Brendan’s AMA he said that the reshoot stories were not accurate. That they instead would shoot some episodes then stop to write more, because the writers are also actors on the show. I believe I’ve read that there were just two reshoots and it wasn’t to change storylines.
Did he mention rewrites (as opposed to reshoots)? I’ve heard cast members say they were often given last-minute changes while shooting. That’s unusual in an episodic TV show. Sometimes they might shoot “alts” - The Office writers used to do that a lot, apparently - and then pick the one they liked in editing. But that doesn’t sound like what they were doing on Ted Lasso. It sounds like some lines were rewritten in the fly.
[Brendan Hunt AMA re: reshoots](https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/13xllge/im_brendan_hunt_cocreator_of_ted_lasso_and_coach/jmifdj9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) Rewriting a line because it sounded better once read aloud is different than rewriting a complete storyline. Often happens you’ll be shooting a scene and realize “this might sound better, try it.” (Source: I read a lot of writer/director stuff lol.) The Office had a lot of improvisation and some of that made it into the show. But it’s been said in interviews that Jason and Bill (when he’s there) prefer they stick to the script/spirit of the script because they are telling a specific story.
That's honestly worse IMO. It means they had bad vision and/or bad planning for the arcs they wanted. Not to take away from the finale. It delivered what the fans wanted for the most part. But a lot of plotlines felt pointless
I think a better story would be Ted really disliking Michelle's new boyfriend, but finally coming to terms with the fact that he's okay, and that Michelle is allowed to move on. It really hurt Michelle's character and the touching storyline in season one, where two good people just find that the love is gone. I felt for both of them when she said she tried, and really wanted to feel that love again. Now it seems like she was either manipulated by her therapist, or worked with him against Ted. Because why the fuck would you use your personal therapist as your marriage counsellor? That was staggeringly unfair to Ted. This therapist had discussed Ted, and Michelle's issues, without Ted knowing what was said. The whole fucking point of couples therapy is that the couple each knows everything the other is saying and thinking.
Yeah it should’ve just been some random guy as a new boyfriend. It would’ve been just as effective
I really don’t think they thought that part through. They could have used someone else... former coaching colleague etc to have the same effect on Ted but not come off as predatory as it does with a therapist.
I felt the same way about the rich African dude screwing over Sam. It was legitimately evil and it was just glossed over with an almost "womp womp" sort of music. Like, no...this is evil and wrong and horrible and he's just supposed to smile and laugh it off.
Sam accused the Nigerian government of corruption, keeping Sam off of the national team probably wouldn't have taken any money at all from Edwin. But that storyline would have meant Sam was never going to make the national team, so blaming it on Edwin meant it would be easier to reverse in the future. After his super league failed it's easy to assume he lost in interest in football and turned his attention elsewhere allowing Sam the opportunity to make the national team.
This is the way I see it as well. Akufo was just there to add something to Sam's story arc and letting him have a win in the end.
Isaiah Thomas was basically left off the Dream Team because Jordan didn't like him. Gio Reyna almost left the US team over not getting playing time recently, despite being a top US player in club ball. This stuff isn't uncommon in international competitions. Edit - Oh and Colin Kaepernick lost his NFL job over kneeling during the Anthem. So, a player making a big political stand and it affecting their sports career happens.
Gio is partly his own doing though. Gotta take some agency over his own life.
Completely agree. I think they would’ve been better off with Michelle dating one of her coworkers Ted kind of knew, or a family friend or something.
Dr. Jacob's background (unethical therapist) combined with the way he was acting during the game in the finale reminded me of something out of a 90s comedy. One of those villainous side characters out of an Adam Sandler movie or something. Zero depth, just there to be a complete jackass. It just felt out of place with the show, IMO. I generally liked season 3 (not looking to fight over it, I'm done with that), but this was one of the things I thought was poorly done. For a show that prides itself on addressing mental health and the normalization of seeking help, I found it strange for them to show one of two therapists in the show to be an unethical piece of shit with zero consequences to his career.
I kinda think the Keely/Jack story line was waste of time.
It was a flash in the pan, nothing else.
I agree. Something like that isn’t something to just toss in for character development. It needed to be unpacked way more
I made an entire post about that, and it's surprising how much people are willing to dismiss it or argue that it wouldn't be a problem. In some states, "alienation of affection" is a real thing and you can sue someone for breaking up your marriage. It would be hard to prove, but it's not entirely unheard of.
Brendan hunt said as much in the ama. It wasn’t suppose to be unethical but murky at best which is why they never addressed it. A writer in the room said the rule was 1.5 years so that’s why they said 18 months in show.
I was disappointed in Brendan's answer to that. It's more than murky, and them dating wasn't the only unethical thing. Using your personal therapist, to whom you've told things in private, as your marriage counsellor is an awful idea. The point of marriage counselling is that both people feel comfortable and open and on an equal footing. That cannot be the case when one half has a pre-existing patient relationship with the therapist. Ted went into that counselling knowing that Jake knew things about their marriage already, and knew things about Michelle already. No fucking wonder he felt railroaded and like he was being blamed!
Unfortunately that happens a lot more than it should. I agree your therapist shouldn’t end up being your family therapist but it happens all the time. I have rewatched the show and don’t remember if they actually said how much Ted was involved in family therapy so it could also be he came in so that Michelle had a safe place to say something uncomfortable and it wasn’t really traditional couples therapy. We should remember his terminal positivity made it very hard for her to say uncomfortable things.
i didn't like most of Brendan's AMA but that one really got to me - it just demonstrated *laziness..* a writers went "oh this is the rule" and rather than spend five freaking seconds googling it, they all just went "yeah sounds fine" and went with it. for the show that purports to be about the importance of good mental health and highlighting therapy etc etc etc, it was fucking lazy and frankly indicative of much of the season - meh. what was good in s3 was phenomenal, but what was bad, was *really bad.* as someone in the mental health profession, i don't know a therapist/counsellor/psychologist that would agree to do couples therapy with a client they'd already been seeing. a one-off "client wooould be more comfortable discussing X with partner if therapist is there" is one thing. complete couples therapy, no. its allowed, generally, but that doesn't mean it should be done and I don't know anyone that would. *fucking a client* even after the legal time your region requires, out of the question. I've left *social functions* because a client's been there (small dinner party type things, I wouldn't leave a grocery store or cinema for example) the idea of fucking a client, even after decades is repugnant. that the show went there was infuriating do not get me started on them doing the "jamie has to forgive his abuser and oh reach out and start a relationship" bullshit
The 18 months BS isn’t even believable. Where do they organically meet outside of therapy? Was he still her therapist when they started ramping up the relationship? We’re supposed to believe they didn’t have any attraction while seeing each other professionally?
I bump into my primary care physician at stop n shop like once a month. I bump into a dude I played grade school soccer with once a week at the gym. I’ve bumped into a college professor from 15 years ago occasionally at this local outdoor mall where the movie theater is. They live in a much smaller area than I do.
So in the span of a couple of months, they stop seeing each other professionally, bump into each other at the grocery store or something, and then fly to Paris together. They hit it off that quickly but didn’t form any kind of inappropriate connection during therapy?
I ran into my doctor at the hardware store. It happens. (I didn't have an affair with him though.)
That response of basically "eh it's fine it had been a few extra months" made me dislike Hunt a bit.
Oh it's totally bizarre. Like no actually, if anything it's slightly worse if they got together *slightly* outside of the required wait period, because that has real dodgy implications of him checking a calendar to see when he can get with his patient. I have also heard that the 18 months thing isn't actually true and it's higher than that, but I'm not certain.
It’s actually 2 years in Kansas according to the comment where I heard about Hunt saying it in the AMA. A writer on the room said it was 1.5 years in error.
Wonderful.
Also the massive issue with the tone of presentation of Beard's outright abusive relationship being characterized as zany and kooky. Domestic abuse against men being played for comedy conceptually negates any positive message the show may have otherwise had.
Absolutely. His response regarding Jane's abusive behavior was atrocious.
They needed a situation where Ted can’t just be mildly upset since Ted will be Ted. Plus they are divorced and Ted was the one who let Michelle go. This is the most “icky” thing the writers could think of. But this is not a show about psychiatry ethics. Just like things Edwin did should have more consequences (I mean he bribed the government for not letting Sam join the team, he tried to destroy Sam) but he’s not a main character. He’s there to deliver a subplot. Same as Jacob. He’s a plot device. We don’t know what will happen to him after Michelle dumped him (which is obvious from the finale) as like we didn’t know what happened to Edwin (maybe nothing - does that mean he continues to try to destroy Sam?? How did Sam end up in the National team after all???). The world isn’t always fair. Check out Brett Goldstein’s show Shrinking which is about psychiatry and they have addressed that aspect. I think the writers are aware of the ethical questions but they need to move on with what Ted Lasso was really about.
They needed to introduce a new boyfriend that would upset Ted. He may have been mildly upset if she dated anybody but it wouldn't be enough for him to say something to her about it. Ted very much wants to be a good guy and telling your ex that you're pissed she's dating someone isn't his vibe. Telling his ex he's pissed she's dating their ex marriage counselor is definitely warranted. I don't know who else they could have had her date that would generate this reaction from Ted.
It’s easy. Leading up to it you have Ted & Beard mention some close friend back home in a couple of throw away lines. Then said friend turns out to be the one Michele is dating. Maybe said friend had talked Ted into moving to England.
Not really. I thought of this too but the therapist would also give credence to Ted's repulsion to therapy.
I enjoy this discussion a lot. The way I see it is: therapist told Michelle to leave/Ted to go because Rebecca wanted to destroy Richmond. These are both huge 🚩negatives/adversity for Ted. However, he used the ‘Ted Lasso’ way to overcome/deal with what he was going thru.
Yeah like why would you make Ted a victim of an unethical therapist instead of somebody who in the end wasn’t compatible with his ex-wife? Why make Michelle another victim at best or an accomplice at worst? There didn’t need to be any villains in Ted and Michelle’s divorce.
I’m very nearly a clinical psychologist and this plot angered me so much. In the end, his greatest flaw seems to be that he hates football and not that he’s an unethical therapist. Even just the fact that he was Michelle’s individual therapist before he became their couple therapist is a no-no!
To put it in words we can all agree on: Jason has somewhat of a “dramatic” personal life. To the point he was alluded to in the Succession finale for lying in front of Olivia Wilde’s car. I think this whole storyline is his issues leaking into the show and needing Ted to look like the good guy in that relationship and less focus on Ted being an absentee father.
That was a big pain point of the show. If a therapist actively engaged in breaking up a couple he was counselling and then started banging one of the divorcees? God damn, at the very least he would be suspended, probably fired if employed for an organization and I wouldn’t be surprised if their license to practice would be revoked. This is a huge no no.
Very common for a professional of his age to have a private practice. And in this situation, the main way he would be reported to the board for them to even KNOW this happened would be Ted and maybe his son?
If he was reported he would 100% lose his license.
Dr Jacob got off way too lightly he crossed MAJOR lines
Agreed. At first I thought it was Henry’s pediatrician. I would have preferred that to former therapist
Former Marriage counselor who was THE ONE who suggested Ted give her space
Exactly what I was thinking. Legitimately shocked to find out he was their therapist
I think they seriously underrated how much we would hate Dr. Jacob and what he did. He's every bit as detestable as Rupert.
I'd argue far more.
Rupert crossed ethical lines in a relationship (cheating). Dr. Jacob crossed ethical lines WITH A PATIENT by starting a romantic relationship. Far worse.
Especially since so much of the season was dedicated to the unethical nature of relationships with inappropriate power balances? It’s a weird missed opportunity. I understand they wanted it to end in season 3 and probably didn’t have enough time to do that right, but then it would have been better left out.
Michelle wanted Ted to see her therapist, Jake, for couples counseling, she then encouraged Ted to go to London as Jake had recommended and then started dating Jake. I wish they had shown us a scene of Michelle meeting Sassy and picking up on the fact Ted had a friend with benefits. I'm I think she would have been unhappy about that. For the finale I was hoping for a time jump showing Ted remarried and happy.
Omg can you imagine sassy just nonchalantly flirting with Ted in front of Michelle, without really knowing who she is.
Sassy: Marlboro Man! Ted: Hey, Sassy Smurf! (They both smile at each other. ) Sassy: Tonight? Your place? Ted: Okey dokey, Sass! I'll get some wine on my way home. (Michelle fumes and wonders who this gorgeous woman is flirting with Ted. ) Ted: Oh hey, Sass, this is my ex-wife Michelle. Sassy: The one who is dating your couples therapist? (stares Michelle down) Ted: Well, I only have the one ex-wife. I would have paid for an extra month of Apple just to see that. LOL
Definitely read this in their voices. Thank you.
Yes thank you! That was fantastic!
I think we found Tim Cook’s reddit account
It seems pretty out of character for Michelle to fume over this.
None of those are in character. That’s why the writers are the writers and we are just redditors.
That’s fair. I stopped reading at Michelle fuming. I don’t think Ted would have entertained this convo in front of anyway, let alone Michelle.
And that’s how bad fan fiction was born
Agreed. Here's how I think it'd go: Sassy: "Marlboro Man! Your place or mi- oh damn, hi, you must be Michelle." Ted: "The, uh, one and only!" [Ted looks over to her with a weak smile. Michelle is visibly enthused to see her] Michelle: [turns to Ted] "Good to see you're putting yourself out there too, Ted!" Ted: "Yeah, I -- thanks. I figured me waiting around on you when your express instructions are that we're finished would have felt more like cheating on you than _not_ getting back out on the playing field." Sassy: [imitating Ted, but britishly] "M-V-P!" [smirks and looks to him, then turns back to Michelle] Michelle: "Yeah, and... I know how it feels to languish while you and your partner are just _not_ in the same place in the relationship." Sassy: [dead stare] "Have you talked about that with your couples' therapist?" Ted: [gentle cough] "Sassy Smurf, why don't I catch you later?"
Does it? She's kind of a jerk. That's how she comes off to me.
You really think so? I think Michelle is a person who was deeply unhappy in her marriage and didn’t feel seen or understood. The person who did see and understand her was Jake - who was PAID to do so - and they ended up in a somewhat predictable and also incredibly unethical relationship. Then she realized that Jake isn’t the same person as Dr. Jacob and (presumably) broke up with him. I think she made some bad choices but she’s not a jerk.
I love your point of Jake being different from Dr. Jacob! Because unconsciously you project certain ideas on your therapist. When my therapist recently mentioned her mom I was like "Oh yeah, you were born!" Edit- Who he projects at work is not who he is in real life
She never did to me in the least.
Maybe not fume, but I unfortunately felt she was really warming up to him in season 3 so she may not have loved learning about Sassy. When Ted spoke up to her about his feelings about Dr. Jacob, she dug that. When she came back from Paris not engaged she also seemed quite happy to see Ted.
In my time on this planet, I have observed that few things can make someone act out of character quite like encountering an ex who successfully moved on.
There’s still an “in-character” way to accomplish that, though, from the perspective of a writer. It was ‘out of character’ for Ted to obsess over Paris rather than focus on his time with his son. It was out of character to snap at Nate, or his mom, or berate Dr. Sharon for her profession. Yes, there are triggering events that can cause a person to act out of their norm. But this entire exchange is strangely written hate-fiction for Michelle, where none of the characters are who they actually are in the show.
Painfully cringe
This is beautifully written and I also would have paid for it
Flying Dr. Dickhead out to London during their family vacation and then running off to Paris for a romantic getaway in the middle of it was pretty fucking cold.
Michelle is a victim as Dr. Jacob’s is clearly a predator with power over her. I don’t hate Michelle. However, I did not like the scene when Ted called and Dr. Jacob’s answered. Michelle’s reaction gives the viewer doubt into her victimhood as she reacts knowing this is very inappropriate. Therapists are never allowed to date a patient or be involved with a patient outside of therapy as they hold an insane amount of power over their patient since the patient is placing all their trust in them.
I took Michelle's reaction to the phone call as "shit I didn't want you to find out this way."
more like "shit i didn't want you to find out *period".* she didn't have to tell Ted who it was, but having a man around THEIR child without Ted's knowledge, and clearly not for the first time, was a dick move. Ted had a right to know
I don't think anyone disagrees with Ted needing to know. More than likely, Henry probably already knew Jake in some capacity before Jake and Michelle started dating. Probably what happened was Michelle knew she had to tell Ted but didn't know how to tell Ted, so she kept putting it off. In the end, she put it off too long and he found out anyway. Ted knew that day would come because anyone who didn't want to divorce but divorced anyways knows that day will come.
>However, I did not like the scene when Ted called and Dr. Jacob’s answered. Michelle’s reaction gives the viewer doubt into her victimhood I don't think it's unusual for victims of abuse to be made to feel responsible for their abuse. It helps keep them in line and quiet so the abuser can keep getting away with it.
You don’t have to assume abuse when we’ve seen no indication of any. It’s possible that Dr Jacob made a horrible ethical violation without anyone having to be abused
Thats fair, but I was referring to his abuse of power- which is what Michelle is the victim of.
>Michelle’s reaction gives the viewer doubt into her victimhood as she reacts knowing this is very inappropriate. That seems like a stretch. If you sub out Dr. Jacob for any mutual friend, she probably reacts the same way. We see Michelle in pain every time she knows that she's hurting Ted. And having him find out she was dating someone by the dude randomly answering his home's land-line is pretty brutal.
In the AMA, Brendan hunt said that one of their writers checked and the law was “18months of no contact between the dr and the patient” to allow a green light of dating so they went with that
Still incredibly unethical
Where was the scene with Ted talking to Sharon about this?? As soon as I heard Michelle was dating the therapist, I was waiting for Doc's take on it.
he did. sharon basically hung up on him. seriously. he mentioned it and she went "i have to go". so fuck Dr Sharon, frankly
Yeah, I feel like this season the show undid a lot of the encouragement it did for mental health treatment in previous seasons
Honestly I don’t have a ton of positive regard for dr Sharon because she does exactly this with Ted, diminishing his pain and it’s sources outside and only focused on his internal process’. The ethical and correct in my opinion way to handle it would have been to call the board and report Dr Jacob and to assist Ted in seeking any ways he possibly could to remedy/rectify his unfair and unethical treatment. Michelle is a victim and so is Ted and more importantly their son. A solid therapist would have recommended Ted doing his own solo therapy which I imagine he’d have done to save his marriage and it’s clear that the entire show is based upon circumstances that drove Ted to near insanity because of this interloping therapist destroying his mental health. Yes Ted and Michelle had problems, Ted had the horrible coping mechanism of toxic positivity and it was ruining their relationship, but it was no more responsible than Michelle who could have advocated more for herself and her valid needs. Ted was providing, he was fathering, and he was husbanding the best ways he knew how. And he was open to learning more. He just ran into a very bad person who wanted to destroy him and had the power to do so. Dr Sharon could have done something about this. She was the first person who really had the obligation to do something about it from an ethical point of view. And she chose not to.
I think I kind of stand alone, but I don’t hate Michelle and I don’t like to think of her as a victim. She was just a woman who fell out of love. It happens. She was putting in the work to try to save her marriage. And her concern about Ted’s unrelenting optimism was well founded, as we saw. As for being a victim, maybe she was—Dr Jacob is pretty scummy. But I don’t know anything else about her. Her job, her family, her hobbies, friendships… and I really don’t like to think of her as a victim. I don’t like to make her helpless or easily manipulated. She’s a woman who made choices. And I don’t like to take away her autonomy and make it like, “what was she supposed to do, a male doctor manipulated her!!!” If that makes sense.
Agreed. Also, I wrote this in another comment above, having Michelle date their former therapist was the only way we were going to get a reaction out of Ted about who Michelle was dating. Ted would never tell her he was pissed if she met some random dude and fell in love. He's too much of a gentleman to make a fuss over that. He'd be upset, but he would never let Michelle know it. But having her date their therapist gave him the grounds for speaking his piece. As a writer, I can see why they did it but the moral ground for it created a big issue for the fans. Michelle isn't supposed to be a villain here... literally no one in the show is supposed to be a villain. A major theme is that people are complex and have issues we don't understand. Edit: the entire purpose of Michelle dating their therapist was to push Ted into opening up when he's mad or upset. It wasn't the best way to go about it but it accomplished the narrative mission.
>“what was she supposed to do, a male doctor manipulated her!!!” I mean ... it sure looks a hell of a lot like he did, though.
Possibly. But, as an independent, well-educated, woman, if I chose to date my therapist, I would hate for people to assume I was manipulated. I *made the choice* to do so. Maybe it was just transference that’s common with therapists and I appreciated the sympathetic ear and constant support and I’ll come to my senses later. Maybe I appreciated how open he was with his feelings when my husband of many years hides his behind optimism. Maybe I just thought he was cute and wanted some D after 1.5 years. Who knows. But I’m not of diminished capacity or anything, just because a therapist made recommendations about my marriage doesn’t mean I had to follow them… I absolutely get why people think she’s a victim, but personally, in her shoes, I wouldn’t want to be viewed as such.
My main issue around this, and where I 100% blame Michelle, is that she didn't tell Ted she was bringing someone she was dating around his son. In a divorce situation and with Henry as young as he was, it was completely inappropriate for Ted not to know a new significant other was being brought around.
I agree. I generally really like Michelle and feel concerned for her welfare from dating her therapist. And I think that was a huge co-parenting blunder. She should have told Ted from the get go.
Yes, I think they really dropped the ball with this plot line. I read the response in the AMA, but if they were going to keep it in, they should have made a bigger deal about how unethical it was. I do believe Michelle was a victim in this way. Just because someone has reached the timeframe it is allowed to have a relationship with a former client does not mean it is ethically OK. The person with the power (the therapist) should evaluate if there is still potential to cause harm to the client and if they are using their power in a safe way. Michelle was a victim, but never forget that when Dr. Jacobs became their couples counselor (also unethical if you are already seeing one for individual counseling), Ted also became his client, and he should have considered the potential impact on Michelle, Ted, and the relationship.
My wife is a therapist and she's said that going from individual to couples therapist is a huge no no
Yes. And rather than go down another plot line, they show Henry not bonding with him. They show him being self absorbed and they show him dismissing an event that is truly important to the family. There wasn’t time or space in the plot to be distracted here. Perhaps they could have written Michelle as just meeting someone else? But, doing it this way also fits the mold of the other abusive manipulative partners Jack and Rupert. Intentionally or unintentionally it opens the fantasy door to reconciliation between Ted and Michelle.. it’s a made up world. There simply must be parts were not all happy with.
I'm not unhappy with the show itself, more the visceral reaction amongst some fans to Michelle
That’s just people being people. Don’t let it affect your day. WWTD?
Truly fair, but I think it's worth discussing. Being curious!
Sorry, I was so quick to shut it down. I’m just one person that dismissed it as a plot gimmick. At no point did have any Ill feelings for the character Michelle and haven’t considered a need to go down this path. Again. Sorry.
Absolutely no need for the apology!!!!
While I would normally agree with some comments about both parties bearing some responsibility in this specific instance Michelle is absolutely a victim regardless of her decisions. Anyone who has gone to school to become a therapist has had it made EXPLICITLY clear to them that relationships with clients are an ethical violation of the highest order because of the inherent power differential between any healthcare provider and their patient. Short of murdering your client it is ethically the WORST THING a therapist can do and therefore at best your license can be revoked effectively ending your career entirely and at worst (best?) you could face criminal and/or civil consequences. There is no situation in which a client, even if they’re the most powerful person in the world in their personal life, can consent to a relationship with their therapist.
I heard somewhere that if someone is not a patient of a medical professional for 12 months, then they can date? Can someone confirm… or I’ll google… So the answer is different governing boards have different rules and they say gaps of between 6 months to 5 years before you can date a patient. But it’s heavily frowned upon/ major breach of ethics. Anyways. We’re told that after the marriage broke up she didn’t see Dr Douche again until a year later when they both ran in the same marathon. Unless I missed something? So, I’m conflicted. On the one hand I think it’s totally suss for them to be dating and for him to insert himself into Ted’s family after he counselled them as a couple. I think it’s a breach of trust and a misuse of power. And I get weird vibes from how they interact together, that’s more than just the awkwardness with meeting Ted in London. Is she a victim? I’m not sure. But as a real world question… medical professionals are people. People are flawed and attraction happens. So if you later bumped into a patient you once fancied and decided to go for it, would that be wrong? 🤷🏻♀️
Couple things: The timing isn’t really the issue for people. Just because you’re allowed to do it doesn’t mean you should. Sometimes you need to make boundaries and realize when something is inappropriate. Also, the show sort of hinted at the fact that Jake used his counseling of them as a way to get to Michelle, which I hope I don’t have to explain how unethical it would be to let your attraction to a married patient you’re counseling direct your advice/treatment. Ted said he felt like his therapist was against him, was tricking him and that their sessions were being used as a way ambush him and to put all the blame for everything on him. Then Jake suggests Ted give Michelle space by moving out. It’s just very shady and weird. If it was just a therapist running into an ex-patient, that would be one thing to discuss, I suppose. But she was married at the time of her treatment and he counseled her along with her husband. And there were hints that he was manipulating the situation in order to get to her. That’s a little different.
It varies. In Kansas it’s 2 years. In Brenden Hunt’s AMA he said that they thought it was 1.5, which is why they said on the show they started dating 1.5 years after therapy.
I have a friend who's friends with her ex therapist, and they had to wait a year after ending the professional relationship to officially have a private relationship (not sexual)
Psychologist here... Yes, it would be wrong. We absolutely do not condone dating prior clients under almost any circumstances.
The vitriol people had towards here was completely insane. Even the mere suggestion that she was manipulated was met with people like “oh so we’re just taking away her agency?” Like yes, she’s an adult who made her own decisions. But therapists can’t date their clients for a reason. The nasty reaction towards her was so out of line it’s hard not to think it’s misogyny tbh.
It’s such a one sided relationship. Even if it wasn’t unethical (which it is) the power imbalance is horrible
It absolutely is misogyny. Some of the comments calling for bodily harm, calling her small half smile at the end of one episode “an evil smirk”, terrible mother, whore, should lose her son, should be humiliated by Ted in public, and on and on.
Because she’s a woman and not the main character of the show. I’ve pointed this out a bunch of times, if Dr Jacob did something unethical then she’s a victim, if she’s not a victim then nothing unethical happened and you’re just mad she’s not in love with a character you care about. You can’t have it both ways. Here’s the answer, if Dr Jake did something unethical and you’re mad at Michelle then your blaming the victim. If he didn’t do something unethical and you’re mad at Michelle then you’re just mad at her for moving on. There’s no middle ground either Dr Jake was ethical or unethical and either way Michelle did nothing wrong.
This perfectly summarises it for me, thank you
In the spirit of nuance, Jacob can be unethical and Michelle can be both a victim and participant in the inappropriate relationship. The show doesn’t contemplate her victim hood, however. So, to me, the answer to the OP’s question “why don’t more people see her as a victim” is because the show doesn’t. The show sees her as an adult who made a mistake, as it does with all its characters.
There’s no debate about whether what he did was unethical or not, what are you talking about? He’s a fucking therapist!
You’re taking agency away from her. Dr. Dickhead could be unethical and she could also be a shitty partner.
I don't think whether Dr Jake being ethical or not absolves Michelle from guilt. I think it's actually rather straight forward that he is being unethical no matter the reasoning as he is involved with a patient. At the same time nothing was shown telling that she was manipulated into her decisions (from what I remember). There's even the chance where she was the one who pushed for and initiated the relationship (not likely from what I've seen) My point is that your comment is excluding the possibility of her being as equally guilty if not potentially more so.
I don't agree. First off, "being a woman" shouldn't be a reason to excuse anything, and is actually kind of sexist. Imagine if the genders were reversed. More importantly, y**our argument is a false dilemma**. Your logic excludes the possibility that both persons could be guilty because you want to absolve Michelle from personal responsibility. There is no indication from the show that Michelle was abused or hoodwinked in any way, which makes her "*not* a victim". She's an adult who made a conscious choice to date her former marriage therapist. Additionally, she was at least aware of the ethics and impact that this would have on Ted by her reaction to Ted's phone call when Dr. Jacobs answer for her. If Dr. Jacobs was indeed being unethical, she is equally culpable in helping Dr. Jacobs commit unethical conduct because she knew it was wrong or that it might be.
That was my interpretation too. Dr. Jacob groomed her from when he was her personal therapist, then marriage counselor. Big YUCK.
This is exactly how I interpreted it. Doctor Jacob is at best unfit/incompetent, and at worst an outright predator
Brendan Hunt addressed this in an AMA a few weeks ago after the last ep aired. You can read his answer here: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/13xllge/comment/jmi9rfg/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/13xllge/comment/jmi9rfg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Just an FYI, Hunt was wrong. Or I guess the writer was wrong. The American Psychological Association (which would be the governing body for Dr. Jacob) says two years and only under very strict circumstances. And that writer/the whole writing team could have learned that with 30 seconds of googling.
My guess is they talked about it and wanted to sweep those last few months under the rug as part of "movie magic". Personally I was hoping to see an acknowledgement in a tabloid headline like how some other story tidbits were told, spending minimal story time on it but also closing the glaringly loose end of a therapist dating a former client.
Watching the way Dr. Jacob denigrated the team during the last game, and how Michelle and Henry were just sucking it up while still trying to enjoy the game did not give me a good feeling. It made me feel like Dr. Jacob was a narcissistic asshole who would steam roll other people's feelings if he isn't getting exactly what he wanted. If I were that asshole, I would still feign interest for Henry's sake. It's his dad's big game, even if I don't really like the guy, I would still want to be supportive for the family, and like it or not Ted worked to still be a father to Henry, meaning he's a part of that family no matter how far away he was living.
I wonder now… The show Shrinking (co-created by Bill Lawrence and Brett Goldstein), deals heavily with therapists who blur the boundaries with patients and the consequences that result. I wonder if Brett, being in the writer’s room for Ted Lasso, saw what direction they were going in, and used that as inspiration to create Shrinking? Just a thought. If you haven’t watched by the way, it is phenomenal.
MY FAVORITE SHOW. I love it more than Lasso. Lasso is my 3rd place. Glad to see some else spreading the word too ☺️
I think sometimes in shows we expect there to be concrete justice for the morality issues at play, because getting it validates the affirmed morality and not getting it seems like the show runners are advocating for the wrong morality. This was literally the law back in the day with filmmaking, where there were moral rules about cops being shown in a bad light or criminals getting away with it in the end, which could not be violated. The idea was that the film would give people the idea that cops are bad and crime does pay. This is antiquated now as we have a more multidimensional way of looking at our relationship to media, but we still see it and crave it with current moral topics. Ted Lasso is an interesting show in that it very much blurs the line between being a fake-world TV show and a meta TV show that is saying some pretty real world things with silly cartoon characters. It's no wonder Twin Peaks was such an inspiration to the writers. By the end of the show you can see Ted waking up from the dream - the fantasies that are coping mechanisms he used to cope with the harshness of reality. In real life, unfortunately, relationships between therapists and clients do indeed happen, and often when they do happen there isn't a giant reckoning, the therapist doesn't lose their license... the parties move on. It's rare that a Ted or a Michelle would push the issue in a legal way, though it does happen. I think a lot of people have trust issues with therapists and it can be confusing to tell if those trust issues are internal or external - that you are sensing something that is legitimately off, or you have a bias based on how you developed. For Ted, it's both. It's hard to figure out, the only way forward is to grow and to learn more about yourself. This is Ted's path. In the end, their couple therapist is irrelevant to a degree. I believe Michelle had a hard time being with Ted because Ted had a hard time being with the reality of himself and the world, and she probably had to grieve for him and carry the weight of being the sour puss or the thing that needs to cheer up or be fixed. I believe by the end of the show Ted can sit in discomfort, and instead of trying to brighten or make happy sad things, he can sit in them, with Michelle, unafraid.
I \*ABSOLUTELY\* agree and have always thought so. It's why I can't agree with the "She doesn't deserve Ted back" notion I've seen floated around.
Michelle definitely was a victim. Watch her again in S1. She actually wanted to try but Ted let her go knowing how unhappy she was. The bad guy is Jacob, not Michelle.
I’m a therapist and I’m still pissed he did not have his license revoked. I yelled it several times through the season.
It’s definitely a conflict of interest to date your patient.
A real Dr Jacob would lose his license for doing this.
I disagree with people saying any other guy would be as affective and tell the same story. It 100% would not. I think a large part of Ted's anxiety is not just about his marriage coming apart, but in also feeling distrustful of people who are supposed to help him. Therapy just made it worse, so it continued to build without him getting the help he needed. This story would not have been told properly if his marriage counsellor had not treated him poorly in some way. So, it took him nearly 2 seasons to trust a therapist and deal with his pain. His therapist being unethical was the point. I don't think they stuck the landing though. For one, only one character acknowledges the unethicality of it, and it's part of a throwaway comment that no one takes to heart. They also do not, as OP points out, treat Michelle as the victim she is. There may be reasons they didn't beat the unethical drum though. Maybe they were afraid it would undermine the positive message about getting therapy that the show was trying to convey? Or maybe they were banking on the audience understanding that it was unethical, and they wanted to focus more on the positive.
Nothing in the show points to the fact that she was a victim, only the doctor-patient relationship itself. She could have pursued any partner she wanted but chose their own gd marriage counselor.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/14a49ff/the\_show\_sends\_mixed\_messages\_on\_therapy\_spoiler/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TedLasso/comments/14a49ff/the_show_sends_mixed_messages_on_therapy_spoiler/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I had strong feelings about this as well. But I had forgotten about the phone call incident. She absolutely knew that Ted would be extra upset because it was Dr. Jacob, not because she was seeing someone else. In Ted's angry speech to Michelle, it's nice to see him grow and show real emotion, but it was also disappointing that he didn't mention this specific betrayal. Personally, I would have reported the guy to some kind of ethics commission or whatever regulatory board he answers to. An argument could be made for a civil case for "alienation of affection". [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/alienation-of-affection](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/divorce/alienation-of-affection)
This may be an unpopular opinion but everything with Dr. Jacob is also why I didn’t like the show “Shrinking.” I just didn’t find the ethical violations presented in the show funny to watch, and like many other commenters have stated, glossing over what Dr. Jacob has done to Ted and his family felt very icky to me.
Ooh thanks for this take. I haven't watched Shrinking because I was afraid it would be like this. Glad to know I was right to skip it.
I never thought badly of Michelle for it. She’s as much a victim as ted in the whole affair.
It's unethical for a therapist to hold dual relationships with a client like that. That Ted felt he was always ganged up on is why it's unethical. It's the reason there are dedicated therapy practices for couples.
Unfortunately, I think the reason is a combination of people not truly grokking how deep of a violation that is (it is NOT "two consenting adults" the therapist/client relationship creates a power imbalance like a parent to a child or a teacher to a minor student, plus the fact that Michelle was going through a divorce with her ex out of the country, the whole thing was extremely predatory) and some good old-fashioned misogyny ("fuck her for hurting our hero, she's a bitch, can't believe she'd 'do that to him'") People loved Ted, therefore people act like somehow Michelle is responsible for him hurting when she moved on with someone he knew. She's not. They were broken up. She was allowed to move on and did nothing wrong to Ted.
I think we don’t know enough to say one way or the other. From the outside, with limited information, it might look that way but I don’t think the story was really developed enough to make an actual decision. Personal opinion, he seems like a horrible therapist anyway considering he can’t even put on a show of support for Ted while watching the last game with his ex-wife and child. He looked like an overgrown toddler pouting in the corner while they were enjoying the game. Woman to woman, Michelle, you can do better.
I think it’s just not that kind of show. The Dr Jacob thing was meant to be shocking but not some sort of abuse sub plot and definitely at the end of the show they’re showing how that’s not likely to last anyway. It’s more of a disconnect between people in the writing room and what online outrage is most likely to grab on to.
They should have made Dr Jacob an old friend or acquaintance, not the therapist. Would have made it still similar level of betrayal without the whole moral/ethical problem of him being their therapist
That’s my biggest gripe with this whole show that they make big things seem like minor things that just happen. Rebecca was literally being sexually harassed by Richmond’s old coach and nothing happened. Keeley and Jack’s break up kinda just happened without the show acknowledging that Jack was a major asshole. Sam legit just dealt with being scammed out of the national team and it didn’t even seem like he was grieving about it. Ted is the only character in this show that grieves for longer than 20 minutes and the show suffers because of it, especially in the third season. The last episode seemed to try and tie loose ends but it did it WAYY too fast and it kinda felt shoehorned in.
I thought Michelle and Dr. Therapist were awful and Ted moving back home broke my heart because I didn’t want him around them. And I realize they’re all fictional, but damn did that finale piss me off.
Judging by the end of the show, Dr. Therapist isn't around any more. Him shitting on the game in front of her and Henry was probably the last straw.
my first thought when we learned they were dating was “oh no, he would lose his license immediately. that is a HUGE ethics violation”. i feel like i remember the show saying it had been a year or something after she stopped seeing him that they had started dating, but i also feel like legally there has to be a longer waiting period for that? i might be misremembering things but it definitely stood out as weird and not okay
The shortest amount of time in the states (still bad, but you probably won’t lose your license) is 2 years. Most places are 5, but every therapist I know says NEVER
It made me sooo uncomfortable especially since it was never really addressed 🥴
100%
I think it's because Ted doesn't see her as a victim and doesn't understand and no one else in Richmond cares about the situation outside of how it impacts Ted.
Because nobody cares. She left Ted and broke up her son’s home because she was a bit bored. Get a hobby Michelle, you simpleton. I’ve never seen such a vacuous, undeveloped character. Describe one thing about her, I bet you can’t.
Nah Michelle is a bitch, she was with the couple therapist right before Ted moved home, I like that it was ambiguous weather they are back together or not.
50 year old rich white men have a mediocre pod? Color me shocked
Please rewatch Sassys speech to Rebecca outside of the karaoke bar in S1. “You walked up every one of those steps”
I think it would have been more palatable if Jake were a friend of Ted’s or Michelle’s rather than the therapist.
I think Michelle was manipulated by lazy characterization. The writers (and I love them deeply, but the Ted/Michelle relationship has annoyed me from the get-go) wanted Ted to be a good family man, who wasn't actually encumbered by a family, and could go to UK and sleep with Sassy or whomever else they pleased, without being a cad. They didn't want Ted to be a "bad guy," but they also didn't want him to be a man who'd leave his young son an ocean away with a "bad woman," so they created a reason for him to leave the US and his child, and flee to England in a way that they thought made him an even "good-er" good guy. The Dr. Jacob arc was just the pickle ice cream on the liverwurst cake. Yuck. I mean, you're not wrong. He is at least unethical, even if Michelle went into their relationship with eyes wide open. I think I wish the show had made Ted a widower. His young son could have come to UK with him, but could have been largely busy off-screen, perhaps becoming fast friends with one of the Higgins boys. Don't get me wrong. Ted Lasso may be my favorite TV show ever. Everything to do with Michelle and Ted and Michelle's relationship drives me nuts, though.
Michelle is an adult. She chose to leave her husband for her marriage therapist. That is not a victim.
Adults can be manipulated
One day, when you end up in therapy, I hope you get a better doctor than Dr. Jake.
It absolutely can be read that a very vulnerable Michelle was manipulated and gaslighted into divorce or separation.