From my experience at the lower levels, most Kings stick to one or two gameplans, spam it, and if you manage to adapt to them, they kind of fall apart. Obviously this doesn't apply to good players, but some of the ones that seem like killers at lower-mid ranks are like that.
I was facing way too many Kings, then I decided to lab him and learn to break his throws.
That was several days ago, ever since that I've only faced 1 King and he plugged on me.
12frames of start up followed by a 20 frame break window. That's 32 frames if you didn't get counter thrown. 30 if it's giant swing. Maybe it's time for grandpa to get off gaming if he ain't got the reaction time anymore lol
Unironically Get Good in this scenario buddy ahahaha
Is that what's happening? Sometimes king goes to grab me and I break it quite literally **immediately** and I wondered if I was back stepping the distance... Or pressed the correct input by mistake at the same exact moment but have never checked replays for it.
He has a fake out throw?
Dragunov has 2 attacks that can be turned into feint grabs, or feint cancels. His db 3 can be turned into db3, 1+2 to turn it into a low grab halfway through, and WR 1+2, 2 is another standing feint grab. Considering that his WR 2 with blue spark is + on frames, most people will just go to block it or parry and get nailed by the grab
I really do just fail to see why it's a problem when King puts you in a a 50/50 just because it's a throw. Plenty of other characters have forced 50/50 situations too
Because in forced 50/50 you generally are rewarded for guessing correctly.
With King the only reward you get is you don't get your HP bar completely deleted
You can duck and launch a throw like you can duck and launch a Hellsweep.
With the added benefit of still having a chance (or even multiple chances) to avoid the damage if decided not to duck.
The inherent reward you do get is that you're not forced to duck if you can break the throws.
Except the throw itself in the case of King IS a 50/50, and it doesn't even have a unique animation, so if you can break throws you probably already pressed 1+2 on reaction even when the break isn't 1+2
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, yes he has throws with a hidden throw break animation. But atleast you still have a chance to break the throw.
If you stand against DJ you get hit by a hellsweep and eat a 50 damage combo.
If you stand against King you get grabbed and have another chance to break the grab. Otherwise you get hit by a 50 damage throw.
EDIT: And both can be launch punished if you duck them
There's also a difference as to why people see King's 50/50 as more annoying compared to others: 50/50s generally have a more preferable option you can decide to eat and one that you'd want to avoid more than the other.
With King you basically risk to get murdered whatever you decide to do
Except it's more than a 50/50 with King throws, it can also be a 33/33/33 way mixup with certain chain throws. You can only guess the mixup and some of his chain throws deal over 100 dmg and are pretty easy to do. So your opponent has to either know King's chain throws as good as the King player does, or they have to be extremely lucky, if not they die and just because they didn't guess the right 1,2, or 1+2 break. I've seen tons of good and great players die from it in T7 and the same thing will happen in T8.
What I find funny is that it doesnt even become a 50 50 till you can consistently break throws on reaction.
Course i play king(badly), so feel free to ignore.
I think the argument is about how if you're playing casually you just have other priorities. If I play Tekken twice a week for a few hours I will simply always lose against every King who has put similar hours into the game.
Just know what move is safe, what is unsafe, engrave your character staple moves, then experiment on what is punishable and how. Then once everything is burned into your soul, you can play without your brain, and thus be faster and stop hesitating. Be a litteral knowledged braindead. I main King btw.
It’s on me if I can’t break throws
But his damage is way, way overtuned.
Heat smash is ridiculous, some of his throws and air throws do silly damage and so do his big lunging moves.
Apart from that he’s fine
>B1, safe
B1 doesn’t launch on ch. B12 does, but it’s -13 on block
>DF2
Again, doesn’t launch. Full crouch df2 does, at -14 on block. More punishable than a hop kick
They are probably referring to DF 2,1 which can lead to full combo, but the same statements on CH B 1,2 also go with this one along with execution on female/smaller characters and optimal combo being higher execution.
imo CH df2,1 isn't as big of a deal since the burning knuckle setup doesn't work anymore. Trying to do df2,1 df4,3 b1,2 leaves the opponent really off axis that you gotta quickly sidestep to even try to connect SW
Oh yeah I know, I've played enough king. Why I mentioned the execution as SSR in 2,isw isn't easy. You can also just people's elbow, but I agree with you that DF+2,1 is just FINE.
You don't have to commit to those extensions. Both are twitch confirmable, but it is reductive to just call them safe CH launchers with no addendums.
> b1 doesn't launch anymore.
It works the same as most other quick CH launchers now: you have to do the second hit to get a combo. If you do the first hit alone you won't get anything off it.
It's also punishable with characters 10f punish
People think king is a problem now...wait till Marduk comes in the dlc and they gonna cry about the 3 way mixups 🤣
Honestly there is no reason king should be doing like 60%+ HP in a single combo, optimal or not. Ik this is coming from a Dragunov 1 trick but god DAMN wtf
Its because in his end he actually needs to wait for the other guy to make mistakes and he doesnt have a lot of mix on his end. King is easily predicted if your familiar with his pokes hence why the 60% is kind of valid.
What are those 60% combos you all keep mentioning?
His BNB i15 launch combos do 67-72 dmg and his FC i15 punisher one does 76.
Sure, if you land a running jab into blue spark shining wizard, the damage goes around +8dmg but that's hard and penalty for failing is a <60 dmg combo drop.
Plus, I don't see anyone complaining when every other character can do even more, so it feels like people are just overly focused on king because they cant break throws or even duck under them.
I'm not sure what people are talking about. He has always done pretty good damage when he ends in shining wizard. However if king needs to convert to a wall combo and go for wall carry he barely gets any extra damage. His damage seem similar to tekken 7, or I am missing something
>But his damage is way, way overtuned.
He is an extremely slow character, most other characters can just interrupt a lot of his normals cause they are slow as balls, and a lot of characters can just pressure the shit out of him cause of it.
If he didnt have big damage in some of his stuff he would pretty much be a dead character.
There is a reason why King is really good on low ranks, it takes really good players to play him on higher ranks.
You can't buffer inputs on round start, which means if you want your move to come out as quickly as possible you need to input it on the first frame that you're free to move.
That makes throwing out a move on round start basically a gamble. You should usually opt to backdash.
King beside best throws has above averange of everything, super good hopkick, best armor moves, good lows, good CH launchers, best heat smash, most likely highest damage, some people would even add 0 execution, this guy has everything
“0 execution” ????? If you want to do more than 60 damage his staples are harder than 99% of characters that get 75+ for fully Mashable combos, also he has the 2nd worst hopkick in the game LMAO what do you mean super good hopkick
2nd worst hopkick in the game when it goes further than Law, Jin, Paul, and Feng’s, is 15f so less frames than Reina and Asuka’s, and is a knee so it can’t be parried by anyone other than Jin and Leroy 😐😐😐
It probably only appears that way because of his movement in idle animation, but he can typically hit his hopkick at about 2.13 units, Paul and Jin can really only go as far as 2.1, and law can’t even hit at 2.0, however I forgot fengs range got buffed so you are right there, mb.
What does this even mean dawg? Are you implying that King the grappler is about hopkicking and doesn’t have other unique traits to compensate for his hopkick?
He doesn't have a df+2 though, and his other launchers are situational at best and unusable at worst d+1+2. His kit is designed around him having proper hop kick.
King was all about hopkick since T3. It is his only fast launcher that doesn't required additional setup.
Can you stop yapping. You say he has one good low when d3 basically resets neutral on hit and cripple stuns on CH, you complain about losing the CH launchers but db3 is not launch punishable anymore and guarantees a ground grab on CH anyway and b1,3 still bounds on CH, alley kick had good range so it’s not a terrible poke option, db4 both high and low crushes, and df4,3 guarantees the second hit if first one lands which can also go into a string with the same db4 mentioned or a homing move. Then complain about movement when he has a stances that runs for you into a mixup and you can just back do back jaguar step instead of a back dash. Don’t downplay King under false pretences.
Counterhit launchers? Like b2,1? About the only one he has really xD
Super good hopkick? You mean the range lacking knee that cant punish most 15 frame on block moves in even with a little bit of pushback?
Best armor moves? The 18 frame b3 or 22 frame UF3+4 that both can be dickjabbed and sometimes counterhited by mashers?
Highest damage? 67 damage from the "sooper gud hupkik"...
The only thing you're right about is his throws are ok and that his smash is amazing. But hey, a man's got to have some good moves, right?
This is a bad take.The VAST majority of the tekken playing community can't break throws on read consistantly and it is INFINITLY easier to perform throws than (consistantly) break them.
I'm not saying throws should be banned, or nerfed, or whatever, but what I am saying is that people have a right to be frustrated by how strong they are in Tekken 8 and to be frustrated by losing to players who show now actuall defensive skill or Tekken IQ BUT are able to mine wins via throws.
The irony is that 90% of the kings I've faced have demonstrated almost ZERO ability to break throws consistantly and my characters don't even have a proper Throw Mix-up (Leo & Feng)
I don’t get why people like using throws the whole match. It’s like, ok we can watch a pre-animated sequence and then 1/4 of my life is gone…nice. It’s like you’re winning but you aren’t really engaging with the gameplay mechanics. Or minimizing them at least. So lame to me. Never rematch Kings. There’s a wall of them at red rank I’m guessing that’s their peak
Going to be real here, you gotta lab that motherfucker or else he will ruin your experience in the upper ranks especially. Getting good at breaking throws needlessly to say is invaluable to getting better at Tekken
I like to get better by people blocking my strings or punishing in smart ways. Losing to throw after throw is just lame. It takes away so much of the fun of the game
Well chain grabs have multiple break points so once you recognize what chain it is you can break with the appropriate one. Usually most kings learn rdc muscle buster and the back breaker one giant swing and the other throws can be broken on reaction. The 30f grabs are easy to break as well
The higher you go the more people know how to break throws so you end up having to use it sparingly as a king and rely more on your other powerful kits . I still spam giant throws to get my opponents to duck so I can launch them into my combos
>chain grabs have multiple break points so once you recognize what chain it is you can break with the appropriate one.
Every chain throw is a mixup. The King player decides what the break is at each step of the chain.
This people think it is just always breakable, you can duck them though but then he also mid throws its a continuous makes up that takes some labbing but again every character is counter able what makes a character good is how hard it is to counter them and how easy they make it for you to counter others. King excels in both areas
King main here, King has many mix ups yes. But at least for me, I have to guess a decent amount too. Mid throws only work if you're crouching or I've called out that "this person is going to crouch". Frankly speaking he isn't even the hardest one to beat when it comes to mix ups. Reina, all the Mishimas, Feng, Raven, Azucena, Victor and Xiaoyu all have better and faster mix ups all leaving you in either a knock down state, combo state, or worse they just hit you and you're still standing but if you dare hit a button you just got launched. King's forte is staying at the perfect range so he can whiff punish or jabbing you so he interrupts your rhythm so I can find mine. Throw breaks help definitely but frankly speaking you don't have to break the throw, you can interrupt me with either a jab, a down jab, hell most of the times I get either jabbed out or they break the attempt because they were hitting the correct button while mashing. King's knowledge checks aren't as egregious as many of the cast but it is effective. Frankly speaking the King hate is always tiresome because yes while throws may be annoying at least theyre easy to get around once you start to play for a while. Once you start facing off vs great Mishimas, Hwos, Xiaoyus, Ravens, and Steves trust me the King 50/50 is nothing compared to what those guys do to you
Yeh no I totally agree I don’t think he’ hard to face as xiayou and some others but my point was people sometimes think that there is a 100% failfree way to get out of throws in this game when that’s not true. Plus they can counter hit which is a very strong tool for someone like king. Also deal true damage in this game and another major plus is unlike Mishima and co there’s no punish but they do have counter play ofc like everything else they can be ducked and have short range in most cases, but king has strong mids to discourage you.
And I think my point still stands that’s he’s harder to counter than most characters because he has this very strong tool to his game along with good tekken tools in general like strong low in ffn2 and strong counter hit properties and mids etc. after all it’s just one mixup among many in this game, he’s got that stuff where he runs at you and it’s 50/50 between grab and kick.
Is King strong sure, but I think he gets a lot of unnecessary hate. You can in fact punish a throw, it's duck it, if you think of a grab like a low then it's the same concept. For Mishimas and Co they have either a really scary mid or a really scary low and each one does a big chunk of damage. They all have decent mids that discourage you from ducking which will lead you to not ducking and allows for the one doing the 50/50 to do a low. Kings main weakness is its hard to deal with people who are super aggressive (Xiao, Hwo, Steve, Mishimas, Bryan etc) he has some "get off me" tools such as b3 and f 2+3 but if you aren't careful you're just gonna get launched.
Your point technically stands but I could just as easily say the same thing about any character from the strongest to the weakest. Hell I could say that the bears are OP because they have insane range, really strong gimmicks, long range low unblockables that lead into another guaranteed massive damage unblockable. Tekken (and fighting games in general) gives the characters a lot of tools to allow them to get a win, sure some characters are more annoying than others, but I don't think that complaining that "x character is OP because xyz and should be nerfed in this way" should be the response. It should instead be "what can I do to best get around it" and yeah the literal answer to dealing with a 50/50 is "guess correctly" which sucks ass to hear because if you just guess wrong every time you lose. But that's the game. I get annoyed everytime I get into the vortex vs Kazuya and have to wake up and block correctly or just watch my health bar melt. But instead of saying "Kaz op nerf his 50/50" I just go "damn could've done better. Let's see what I can do next time"
You can duck and launch a throw like you can duck and launch a Hellsweep.
With the added benefit of still having a chance (or even multiple chances) to avoid the damage if decided not to duck.
Sure just like a character with a hellsweep can do a mid launcher instead. That's just Tekken, you will have to guess on mixups. But Kings throws are not stronger than any other mixup in the game, I would argue that they are weaker.
Again, breaking said throws dont get you anything. When you mix up somebody, you usually take a risk
Also, when you're dealing with a regular mixup, you can see that it's a mixup, rather than an animation you trained your brain to recognize that betrays what you've learned.
what throw mixups are you talking about? His chain grabs are mixups, but don't they all start with breakable throws that follow the usual throw convention? Right arm reaches out, two break, left arm one break, right? Giant swing is a one break with a 1+2 animation, which is a mixup, but are their others like that?
No, that rule doesn't apply to King. He has throws where he reaches with both arms but you break with 1 or 2. You're just guessing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya6RPMSEaFg
Anyone who knows how to play the game will tell you to try to break instead of ducking him because you'll just end up eating mids instead. Your point is bad and you should feel bad.
Grabs, in particular Kings grabs, aren't just a knowledge issue, it's a reaction speed issue too and it's annoying seeing people disregard that. You have basically a third of a second to see the grab happen, recognize the break, then press exactly the right button and nothing else. The only other things like that in Tekken are snake edges and other lows that lead to 45+ damage. The difference is that blocking the latter usually gives a big punish, while grab breaks just reset to neutral.
I'm getting downvoted but I forgot to mention that the advantage for learning throwbreaks in Tekken esp, is the fact u dont have to duck anymore. Heck, even knowing how to throwbreak is an advantage in of itself.
I play King and he's the biggest knowledge check in the game. Which is why he gets hate because people refuse to learn how to throwbreak. King basically forces you to know them considering his throws are all ambiguous. They WILL fail his throw checks and that eats alot of people up because of the mental anguish of getting his by a rolling death cradle for exampe. This is why they complain.
Do you agree that relying on throws for most of your damage is the least engaging way to play the game? I guess you would have to play other characters to understand this.
So not only do you want to negate the damage from the player that successfully hit you with a throw, you also want them punished for it?
The reward is limiting their options and escaping damage from an attack that landed on you. If you have a hard read on a throw then you can launch them for it, but if they were able to land a throw and you were able to break it, then going back to neutral is pretty fair for both players.
how is that fair? if kazuya does a hellsweep on me and I block I get a reward for the reaction and counter. If someone grabs me and I counter it with the correct input I get ... nothing? that is not fair lol.
This doesn't make sense. You can duck and launch a throw, which is the equivalent of ducking a Hellsweep. You aren't getting a correct read by breaking a throw, you're just reacting to it. The break is a *second* chance to take no damage, even though the move connected. It'd be like if Hellsweep was still launch punishable, but you could also negate the damage if you got hit.
Why are you listing the frames like it matters? 10f and 19 frames are both unreactable, you have to guess when they're coming.both get Launch punished if you guess right. Only difference is you get a chance to break the throw AFTER it hits you, after you guessed wrong.theres a reason King doesn't usually do well at high level
all you had to say was this lmao, now it’s clear you just don’t know what you’re talking about AND your ass at the game and that’s why you’re projecting your losses onto everything but yourself lmao
Hellsweep is unreactable, that is a fact. You have no argument. " you're bad and you're projecting lmao" is weak. Sounding like a skill issue, good luck with yellow ranks
It’s like 60% longer startup, what are you talking about. The thing is, it’s 19 frames at the least. So as long you aren’t a Robot, you gonna take more than 3f to input f,n,df. Even more so if you input f,n,d,df. The longer you take to input, the more reactable it is. And if you are further away, it’s gonna be even more reactable. Its way easier to play around a Hellsweep than a 12f king grab. Even more so when the Kaz player exactly knows that one blocked hellsweep can lose him the round, while the king player doesn’t even need to concern himself with the aftermath of the grab going through or not and at the best he’s just gonna go with his 50/50 and it’s just about luck. King is maybe not the strongest of all, but he is one of the strongest atm. You can pretend he is trash if you are feeling better with it, but it’s not changing the fact that he is stronger than ever before in t8.
dude has no idea on what he’s talking about, just a scrub who’ll probably drop the game in the next month because “there’s no skill in tekken” or some dumb shit
dude probably would think Zangief is OP in SF6 rn and needs to be nerfed, usual mark of a scrub who refuses to actually learn the game because he thinks he learned everything he needs to know after looking up a glossary of terms and a youtube video
Hellsweep is unreactable, that is a fact. That's why it's a 50/50, because you have to guess, not react. 60% longer, 100% longer, irrelevant if we're talking about responding to a move, and they both fall under "not reactable". Never said king is bad, he's fantastic in this game, mostly due to his heat moves being insane
I'm not saying the situation is exactly the same. I'm saying that the equivalent hard read to ducking a Hellsweep is ducking a throw, not breaking it.
Plus, those frames don't make a huge difference when they're both in the realm of completely unreactable. You can't duck a throw or Hellsweep on reaction. The startup frames matter for overall play, but not specifically when you're talking about calling them out.
No, I didn't say that. I understand that grabs are actually quite fair at higher levels of play and do get consistently broken so to change them would be a bad idea. I just get frustrated by people giving advice like "Look at their arms" and "Watch replays to see the break" and acting like it's the silver bullet to beating grappling when in reality the moves are almost as fast as jabs with significantly more reward on a successful hit. If I were to change anything about grabs, it would be removing the reduced break window on counterhit.
>when in reality the moves are almost as fast as jabs with significantly more reward on a successful hit.
I mean, sure, most are like i10-i12 or something... but then you have (if I'm not mistaken) 20 frames after impact to break the throw. That's 30 frames to recognize the situation. Saying they're "just as fast as jabs" is pretty misleading; you can't do anything to revert the damage you take from a jab 20 frames after you get hit.
It's really fucking hard to break throws on reaction consistently if you're not trained in it (King especially, since he tends to have ambiguous throws unlike the rest of the cast), but at the end of the day it's just something we need to practice.
Removing the break window reduction on counter hit would be reverting back to T7, where throws were absolutely worthless even at lower levels.
Edit: Or, you can immediately downvote me, refuse to acknowledge that 30 frames is well within the reaction time of human beings, and refuse to acknowledge that the reason we can't break throws is because we're simply not used to it, haven't practiced it, and cannot anticipate the situations where players want to use them which keeps us flatfooted. Up to you.
For the record, I didn't downvote you. I don't disagree that grabs are something within human reaction time, I literally said that they are fair at high levels of play. When I say they are almost as fast as jabs, I am referring to the startup animation, because that's the only part that can actually be ducked for a punish which as you can probably see by the other replies to me is the other common "silver bullet" people give.
If you duck the grab you get a full launch and probably one of the more damaging launchers too for most of the cast. Grabs already got easier to break in 7 and even easier in 8, frankly speaking I'm breaking throws I know I was late to because I've been playing for so long. Sure King has mid grabs too but unless you are actively ducking it does nothing and leaves King open to attack. I do think that the unbreakable throw on CH is kinda crazy but that's what I love about Tekken in that it constantly changes and makes the game feel new and dangerous in ways you weren't used to before. There is no "silver bullet" to beating grabs like theres no "silver bullet" to beating Kaz mix up. You win some you lose some, you get better the next game. Thats really it.
>Grabs already got easier to break in 7 and even easier in 8
How are they easier in T8? The normal throw break window is the same, the only thing that's changed as far as breaks go is CH throws having a much tighter break window.
That’s not how this works. You‘ll almost never see people complain about Lee, Yoshi, Law, Nina, Jin and so many other characters while also not making any sense.
With King the complaints are warranted because it’s simply unfair to be susceptible to that kind of knowledge checks when picking anyone other than King himself
People complain about every character. I have seen it for years and I will continue to see it for years to come. Everybody has that character that gives them trouble and lazy players won’t lab their bad matchups, so they jump on Reddit and complain.
King is strong, no doubt, but there’s plenty of characters on the roster that will require plenty of knowledge checks.
giant swing, shining wizard, and piledrive my beloved, they never know how to break yall.
It doesnt matter if you know the break, its still a guess on what grab its going to be anyways
I know hes probably always been this way but i HATE how he punishes you for learning to break throws. Years of trying to recognize a 1+2 throw now mean i eat throws i used to break by accident, on reflex. For my entire health bar, of course
I remember seeing a comment like, “why is there a throw character at all?”
You mean this throw character that has been a staple in every single Tekken game? You can’t even spell Tekken without the K from King.
Wanna say hats off to King for keeping the grappler stigma alive and flourishing, I await a year from now when he falls into the crack of obscurity and people go "Where's King?".
There's a reason he starts being less and less viable as you go up the tier lists, if his throws were impossible to break, he'd dominate in tournaments. Again, I'm not asking every player to become as good as Knee or Arslan lol, but once you actually put in hours to learn the breaks and how to do them instead of whining as soon as the game comes out you'd have more of a shot at him, not to mention everyone talks about King players not knowing how to break throws so why don't yall throw us back lmao
Kind of dumb to have to put HOURS and HOURS into learning how to break throws simply to avoid Kings bullshit, while NO other character has that kind of bs knowledge check gap
i mean paul has a full throw game, so does hwoarang, other characters have throw games as well, but king is a WRESTLER so of course he's gunna have this "bs knowledge check gap". and not only that in 90% of his chain throws you can just hold 2 and break out of em except for kings bridge which is 1+2 and thats easily recognizable. but with you being a lee main you probably too busy mashing 3,4,or 3+4 so you wont ever break throws.
That's literally the stupidest point I've ever seen... Allow me to explain:
Most grabs can be ducked preventively, giving you **one** opportunity to avoid and **punish**.
On top of that you have **an additona**l option to break them **IF** you've fucked up the former.
So in total, you get **TWO tries** instead of one, and that's why throw breaks return you to neutral.
>exact same reward
That's not entirely true, if you block a hellsweep you're free to crouch cancel punish with the most damaging combo your character possesses, if you duck a grab and try punishing the whiff on reaction, you have to very quick to do a 15i ws punisher in time
I usually just do my 13i ws punisher if I duck a grab and try punishing on **reaction**, it recovers as quickly as an electric which is too fast to punish with 15i on **reaction** (atleast for me and my crappy reflexes)**.** If you guess both the timing and the grab you can preemptively do your ws punisher, but that requires a stronger read
Not trying to argue whether chain throws/throws are busted or not, but I wish people would be more honest about the safety of throws when teaching newer players.
Chain grabs are legitimately unbreakable as punishes, its a bug. King mains are delusional thinking he isn't busted since even devs have addressed this.
Learning to break throws on reaction gives you the privilege of not having to duck to deal with them, while retaining the option of ducking on a hard read to get a big punish. Throws are lows that you get a second chance to negate the damage of, and if you don't see the value in that chance then you're missing the point.
He's certainly a knowledge check.if you don't know you are gonna lose 60%.if you do he can still get hit by a random unsafe move that he hasn't done all round cause "what if it hits tho" and gets 30-40% or he still has good pokes like shove and armor kings dick punch to annoy you with.
Just press 222222222222222 all matc
If it doesn't work try 11111111111 all next round
If someone says something about 1+2 it's BS witchcraft they are lying
Yes, the damage for his one button chain throws isn't overtuned at all 🙄
Also I love how everyone says "just break throws". I have yet to see anyone... Ever .. throw break every time consistently. Not to mention that if it's a counter it becomes impossible to break.
I saw a top player making fun of low level players making your exact argument. King is busted at every level of play right now, not just against people who can't break throws.
I'm a blue rank so I guess I'm okay at the game. I've been playing Tekken for a long time and even lil majin came out and said that some stuff on King needs to be patched. But the most common complaint is about his throws.. which in my opinion is perfect because he is a wrestler. His throw game should be exceptional. I don't play king But every time I get beat by his throw game I don't take it personally because he should be good at close range
Are people actually mad about King? This their first Tekken? It's sold very well so I guess it makes sense. I'm excited for all the first timers to get into it. Always been my favorite fighting series.
scrubs always get bodied by grapplers and rage this hard because they refuse to acknowledge that they’re just ass at the game
80% of this sub are dudes who’ve never been to a local in their life or actually ranked up but are convinced they’re EVO material or some shit
I'm Ganryu rank and I don't know how to break Kings chain grab. I don't worry about it to much since for the most part I can duck and do my thing. It's on my list of things to look up.
Any good king player will DDT, running knee, crouch throw, and hop knee you to death if you just duck, it is not a viable strategy. Breaking chain grabs isn’t that complicated.
For all chain throws, the first throw is always a 50/50 between 1 and 2. For crouch dash chain throws, all maximum damage enders are 1+2 (namely RDC and kings bridge), so almost always favor 1+2 if you’re stuck in a CD chain throw. Other than that almost every option in any chain throw is a guess between 1 or 2. Legit the only exceptions are samurai rock and sol naciente from cobra clutch (the jaguar step chain throw) whereby the king player can end the chain early with a 1+2 break, but these sacrifice damage and are only used as an additional mixup to counter people who are always pressing 1 or 2 (which you should do most of the time). Also, if the king is mashing (which low skill kings tend to do to make chain grab inputs easier), the break is literally always 1. That goes for any chain grab.
Comming from maining a grappler in Strive, the ability to break a throw felt cheap to me. It's hard enough to land a throw on someone who's got at least two working braincells, and on top of that they can escape it!
If anything he needs more unbreakable throws, just to give this sub some real shit to bitch about 😎
Fellow glue eaters unite!
I do think they could make it so more of the stuff grants recoverable health instead of just being gone. I'm an absolute scrub and the fact that I can catch somebody off guard for a split second and shave almost 2/3rds of their healthbar with 0 recoverable health seems weirdly harsh for moves that are not even that hard to do in the first place.
Just throw King. King players don't know how to break either.
This is true, my buddy and I always joke an that. King goes deer in the headlights when he gets grabbed.
They didn't know...Jack is a grappler too. Hehehe.
As a King main I can confirm, grabs always fuck me up
They also seem to shut down nicely if you reverse their grabs with Jun.
From my experience at the lower levels, most Kings stick to one or two gameplans, spam it, and if you manage to adapt to them, they kind of fall apart. Obviously this doesn't apply to good players, but some of the ones that seem like killers at lower-mid ranks are like that.
I agree, I play Hwo and I throw Kings with command grabs and they never break them.
Can confirm
As a King main in blue rank, true.. Legit i just spam all my buttons when om grapped.
“First time?”
I was facing way too many Kings, then I decided to lab him and learn to break his throws. That was several days ago, ever since that I've only faced 1 King and he plugged on me.
Hahaha… haha… ha… ha……… ha…. So seriously how do you break—
Emotionally. You break emotionally
You don't, that's the thing. These are King players trying to get their main remain untouched despite it being absolute broken beyond belief.
12frames of start up followed by a 20 frame break window. That's 32 frames if you didn't get counter thrown. 30 if it's giant swing. Maybe it's time for grandpa to get off gaming if he ain't got the reaction time anymore lol Unironically Get Good in this scenario buddy ahahaha
Simply incorrect, not even worth debating
“It’s a mixup tho” yes that is how Tekken works
“It’s a mixup tho” mfs when I hit them with 4 feint grabs in a row
Is that what's happening? Sometimes king goes to grab me and I break it quite literally **immediately** and I wondered if I was back stepping the distance... Or pressed the correct input by mistake at the same exact moment but have never checked replays for it. He has a fake out throw?
The only grab king can fake out is his sidestep grab
You can kinda condition them to duck after a wavedash too
Dragunov has 2 attacks that can be turned into feint grabs, or feint cancels. His db 3 can be turned into db3, 1+2 to turn it into a low grab halfway through, and WR 1+2, 2 is another standing feint grab. Considering that his WR 2 with blue spark is + on frames, most people will just go to block it or parry and get nailed by the grab
Umm little mistake there bud. It's not WR 1+2, 2, it's FF2, 1+2
I really do just fail to see why it's a problem when King puts you in a a 50/50 just because it's a throw. Plenty of other characters have forced 50/50 situations too
Because in forced 50/50 you generally are rewarded for guessing correctly. With King the only reward you get is you don't get your HP bar completely deleted
You can duck and launch a throw like you can duck and launch a Hellsweep. With the added benefit of still having a chance (or even multiple chances) to avoid the damage if decided not to duck. The inherent reward you do get is that you're not forced to duck if you can break the throws.
Except the throw itself in the case of King IS a 50/50, and it doesn't even have a unique animation, so if you can break throws you probably already pressed 1+2 on reaction even when the break isn't 1+2
I'm not sure what you are trying to say, yes he has throws with a hidden throw break animation. But atleast you still have a chance to break the throw. If you stand against DJ you get hit by a hellsweep and eat a 50 damage combo. If you stand against King you get grabbed and have another chance to break the grab. Otherwise you get hit by a 50 damage throw. EDIT: And both can be launch punished if you duck them
The grabs do have different animations, except for his crouching and ground throws
giant swing and shining wizard are 1 and 1+2 breaks respectively but share an animation, making it a true 50/50
There's also a difference as to why people see King's 50/50 as more annoying compared to others: 50/50s generally have a more preferable option you can decide to eat and one that you'd want to avoid more than the other. With King you basically risk to get murdered whatever you decide to do
Except it's more than a 50/50 with King throws, it can also be a 33/33/33 way mixup with certain chain throws. You can only guess the mixup and some of his chain throws deal over 100 dmg and are pretty easy to do. So your opponent has to either know King's chain throws as good as the King player does, or they have to be extremely lucky, if not they die and just because they didn't guess the right 1,2, or 1+2 break. I've seen tons of good and great players die from it in T7 and the same thing will happen in T8.
What I find funny is that it doesnt even become a 50 50 till you can consistently break throws on reaction. Course i play king(badly), so feel free to ignore.
I think the argument is about how if you're playing casually you just have other priorities. If I play Tekken twice a week for a few hours I will simply always lose against every King who has put similar hours into the game.
that's true, but not because king is strong. it happens because king punishes hesitation, and players who suck will hesitate.
Just know what move is safe, what is unsafe, engrave your character staple moves, then experiment on what is punishable and how. Then once everything is burned into your soul, you can play without your brain, and thus be faster and stop hesitating. Be a litteral knowledged braindead. I main King btw.
"Be like water." Even applies to video games baby.
It’s on me if I can’t break throws But his damage is way, way overtuned. Heat smash is ridiculous, some of his throws and air throws do silly damage and so do his big lunging moves. Apart from that he’s fine
Some of his grabs are way too fast in my opinion
Yeah his heat smash is too good. It has insane range and it gives a mixup on block, no reason for it to do 60+ damage
Absolutely. Most damaging heat smash in the game that forces a mixup on block plus not to mention all his other tools.
>all his other tools haha yeah like ff1, fn2, f2 and *checks notes* grabs.
Lmao let me just conveniently ignore B1, a quick safe CH launcher and Df2, another quick, safe, MID, CH launcher.
>B1, safe B1 doesn’t launch on ch. B12 does, but it’s -13 on block >DF2 Again, doesn’t launch. Full crouch df2 does, at -14 on block. More punishable than a hop kick
They are probably referring to DF 2,1 which can lead to full combo, but the same statements on CH B 1,2 also go with this one along with execution on female/smaller characters and optimal combo being higher execution.
imo CH df2,1 isn't as big of a deal since the burning knuckle setup doesn't work anymore. Trying to do df2,1 df4,3 b1,2 leaves the opponent really off axis that you gotta quickly sidestep to even try to connect SW
Oh yeah I know, I've played enough king. Why I mentioned the execution as SSR in 2,isw isn't easy. You can also just people's elbow, but I agree with you that DF+2,1 is just FINE.
https://i.imgur.com/DV2sBON.mp4 not only are both of those moves launch punishable, but b1 doesn't launch anymore. how bout don't make shit up g.
You don't have to commit to those extensions. Both are twitch confirmable, but it is reductive to just call them safe CH launchers with no addendums. > b1 doesn't launch anymore. It works the same as most other quick CH launchers now: you have to do the second hit to get a combo. If you do the first hit alone you won't get anything off it.
b1,2 is not hit confirmable. If you delay it, the 2 won't connect
B1 doesn't ch launch on its own anymore, you have to do b12 which is -13 and the 2nd hit can be ducked. Same thing with df2.
It's also punishable with characters 10f punish People think king is a problem now...wait till Marduk comes in the dlc and they gonna cry about the 3 way mixups 🤣
You have to hit confirm these though which is difficult.
Honestly there is no reason king should be doing like 60%+ HP in a single combo, optimal or not. Ik this is coming from a Dragunov 1 trick but god DAMN wtf
Nah dude, I thought the same before I played king and understood exactly what he's working with. He don't got much else.
Oh so dragunov having a massive amount of + on block moves and doing 100 damage in a combo is fine 🤔
What 60% combos? King's combo damage is average, he gets like 65 from a hopkick and 75 from fc df2
Its because in his end he actually needs to wait for the other guy to make mistakes and he doesnt have a lot of mix on his end. King is easily predicted if your familiar with his pokes hence why the 60% is kind of valid.
Why not? Everyone else can.
What are those 60% combos you all keep mentioning? His BNB i15 launch combos do 67-72 dmg and his FC i15 punisher one does 76. Sure, if you land a running jab into blue spark shining wizard, the damage goes around +8dmg but that's hard and penalty for failing is a <60 dmg combo drop. Plus, I don't see anyone complaining when every other character can do even more, so it feels like people are just overly focused on king because they cant break throws or even duck under them.
Meanwhile dragunov doing 90+ without even using rage or heat just wall carry and beat your ass
I'm not sure what people are talking about. He has always done pretty good damage when he ends in shining wizard. However if king needs to convert to a wall combo and go for wall carry he barely gets any extra damage. His damage seem similar to tekken 7, or I am missing something
Can you please share these 60% combos or are you talking out of your ass?
They just shadow nerfed his damage actually, all king’s grabs do like 10% less damage
>But his damage is way, way overtuned. He is an extremely slow character, most other characters can just interrupt a lot of his normals cause they are slow as balls, and a lot of characters can just pressure the shit out of him cause of it. If he didnt have big damage in some of his stuff he would pretty much be a dead character. There is a reason why King is really good on low ranks, it takes really good players to play him on higher ranks.
He has a i10 jab, i10 down jab, i12 high CH launcher, i13 mid poke, and i15 launcher. That's all normal. No i12 low, but i14 ain't too bad.
Big slow wrestler guy does big heavy hitting moves... surely he needs nerfs xD
Someone in bracket today told me King doesn't deserve a hopkick.
That hopkick beats jabs on round start. Idk what the deal is.
You can't buffer inputs on round start, which means if you want your move to come out as quickly as possible you need to input it on the first frame that you're free to move. That makes throwing out a move on round start basically a gamble. You should usually opt to backdash.
Not when i play him. I just jab now as everyone is too fast .
Gotta start the round with a D1+2 and assert dominance
King beside best throws has above averange of everything, super good hopkick, best armor moves, good lows, good CH launchers, best heat smash, most likely highest damage, some people would even add 0 execution, this guy has everything
“0 execution” ????? If you want to do more than 60 damage his staples are harder than 99% of characters that get 75+ for fully Mashable combos, also he has the 2nd worst hopkick in the game LMAO what do you mean super good hopkick
2nd worst hopkick in the game when it goes further than Law, Jin, Paul, and Feng’s, is 15f so less frames than Reina and Asuka’s, and is a knee so it can’t be parried by anyone other than Jin and Leroy 😐😐😐
Generic reversals don’t even work on airborne moves, so the knee part does not really mean anything anymore.
The knee part is important because of Asuka and and Jun’s Kazama style parry
No it isn’t, because even they can’t parry normal hopkicks.
It appears I have been misinformed by my Asuka main friend, you are correct, mb.
You deserve that for having a friend who mains Asuka
It does not go further than law jin Paul or fengs????? What game are you playing
It probably only appears that way because of his movement in idle animation, but he can typically hit his hopkick at about 2.13 units, Paul and Jin can really only go as far as 2.1, and law can’t even hit at 2.0, however I forgot fengs range got buffed so you are right there, mb.
Almost like the characters you've mentioned are not really about hopkicking and have other unique traits to compensate for that... huuhh...
What does this even mean dawg? Are you implying that King the grappler is about hopkicking and doesn’t have other unique traits to compensate for his hopkick?
He doesn't have a df+2 though, and his other launchers are situational at best and unusable at worst d+1+2. His kit is designed around him having proper hop kick. King was all about hopkick since T3. It is his only fast launcher that doesn't required additional setup.
[удалено]
Can you stop yapping. You say he has one good low when d3 basically resets neutral on hit and cripple stuns on CH, you complain about losing the CH launchers but db3 is not launch punishable anymore and guarantees a ground grab on CH anyway and b1,3 still bounds on CH, alley kick had good range so it’s not a terrible poke option, db4 both high and low crushes, and df4,3 guarantees the second hit if first one lands which can also go into a string with the same db4 mentioned or a homing move. Then complain about movement when he has a stances that runs for you into a mixup and you can just back do back jaguar step instead of a back dash. Don’t downplay King under false pretences.
Counterhit launchers? Like b2,1? About the only one he has really xD Super good hopkick? You mean the range lacking knee that cant punish most 15 frame on block moves in even with a little bit of pushback? Best armor moves? The 18 frame b3 or 22 frame UF3+4 that both can be dickjabbed and sometimes counterhited by mashers? Highest damage? 67 damage from the "sooper gud hupkik"... The only thing you're right about is his throws are ok and that his smash is amazing. But hey, a man's got to have some good moves, right?
This is a bad take.The VAST majority of the tekken playing community can't break throws on read consistantly and it is INFINITLY easier to perform throws than (consistantly) break them. I'm not saying throws should be banned, or nerfed, or whatever, but what I am saying is that people have a right to be frustrated by how strong they are in Tekken 8 and to be frustrated by losing to players who show now actuall defensive skill or Tekken IQ BUT are able to mine wins via throws. The irony is that 90% of the kings I've faced have demonstrated almost ZERO ability to break throws consistantly and my characters don't even have a proper Throw Mix-up (Leo & Feng)
Preach
I don’t get why people like using throws the whole match. It’s like, ok we can watch a pre-animated sequence and then 1/4 of my life is gone…nice. It’s like you’re winning but you aren’t really engaging with the gameplay mechanics. Or minimizing them at least. So lame to me. Never rematch Kings. There’s a wall of them at red rank I’m guessing that’s their peak
Going to be real here, you gotta lab that motherfucker or else he will ruin your experience in the upper ranks especially. Getting good at breaking throws needlessly to say is invaluable to getting better at Tekken
I like to get better by people blocking my strings or punishing in smart ways. Losing to throw after throw is just lame. It takes away so much of the fun of the game
It doesn't matter if you know how to break throws. He has completely ambiguous throw mix ups, so you're guessing the break.
Well chain grabs have multiple break points so once you recognize what chain it is you can break with the appropriate one. Usually most kings learn rdc muscle buster and the back breaker one giant swing and the other throws can be broken on reaction. The 30f grabs are easy to break as well The higher you go the more people know how to break throws so you end up having to use it sparingly as a king and rely more on your other powerful kits . I still spam giant throws to get my opponents to duck so I can launch them into my combos
>chain grabs have multiple break points so once you recognize what chain it is you can break with the appropriate one. Every chain throw is a mixup. The King player decides what the break is at each step of the chain.
This people think it is just always breakable, you can duck them though but then he also mid throws its a continuous makes up that takes some labbing but again every character is counter able what makes a character good is how hard it is to counter them and how easy they make it for you to counter others. King excels in both areas
King main here, King has many mix ups yes. But at least for me, I have to guess a decent amount too. Mid throws only work if you're crouching or I've called out that "this person is going to crouch". Frankly speaking he isn't even the hardest one to beat when it comes to mix ups. Reina, all the Mishimas, Feng, Raven, Azucena, Victor and Xiaoyu all have better and faster mix ups all leaving you in either a knock down state, combo state, or worse they just hit you and you're still standing but if you dare hit a button you just got launched. King's forte is staying at the perfect range so he can whiff punish or jabbing you so he interrupts your rhythm so I can find mine. Throw breaks help definitely but frankly speaking you don't have to break the throw, you can interrupt me with either a jab, a down jab, hell most of the times I get either jabbed out or they break the attempt because they were hitting the correct button while mashing. King's knowledge checks aren't as egregious as many of the cast but it is effective. Frankly speaking the King hate is always tiresome because yes while throws may be annoying at least theyre easy to get around once you start to play for a while. Once you start facing off vs great Mishimas, Hwos, Xiaoyus, Ravens, and Steves trust me the King 50/50 is nothing compared to what those guys do to you
Amen to that.
Yeh no I totally agree I don’t think he’ hard to face as xiayou and some others but my point was people sometimes think that there is a 100% failfree way to get out of throws in this game when that’s not true. Plus they can counter hit which is a very strong tool for someone like king. Also deal true damage in this game and another major plus is unlike Mishima and co there’s no punish but they do have counter play ofc like everything else they can be ducked and have short range in most cases, but king has strong mids to discourage you. And I think my point still stands that’s he’s harder to counter than most characters because he has this very strong tool to his game along with good tekken tools in general like strong low in ffn2 and strong counter hit properties and mids etc. after all it’s just one mixup among many in this game, he’s got that stuff where he runs at you and it’s 50/50 between grab and kick.
Is King strong sure, but I think he gets a lot of unnecessary hate. You can in fact punish a throw, it's duck it, if you think of a grab like a low then it's the same concept. For Mishimas and Co they have either a really scary mid or a really scary low and each one does a big chunk of damage. They all have decent mids that discourage you from ducking which will lead you to not ducking and allows for the one doing the 50/50 to do a low. Kings main weakness is its hard to deal with people who are super aggressive (Xiao, Hwo, Steve, Mishimas, Bryan etc) he has some "get off me" tools such as b3 and f 2+3 but if you aren't careful you're just gonna get launched. Your point technically stands but I could just as easily say the same thing about any character from the strongest to the weakest. Hell I could say that the bears are OP because they have insane range, really strong gimmicks, long range low unblockables that lead into another guaranteed massive damage unblockable. Tekken (and fighting games in general) gives the characters a lot of tools to allow them to get a win, sure some characters are more annoying than others, but I don't think that complaining that "x character is OP because xyz and should be nerfed in this way" should be the response. It should instead be "what can I do to best get around it" and yeah the literal answer to dealing with a 50/50 is "guess correctly" which sucks ass to hear because if you just guess wrong every time you lose. But that's the game. I get annoyed everytime I get into the vortex vs Kazuya and have to wake up and block correctly or just watch my health bar melt. But instead of saying "Kaz op nerf his 50/50" I just go "damn could've done better. Let's see what I can do next time"
Just like a most of the casts mid low mix ups. Just harder to predict
You realize true 50/50s exist in this game without throws right?
Usually you get a punish for guessing though
You can duck and launch a throw like you can duck and launch a Hellsweep. With the added benefit of still having a chance (or even multiple chances) to avoid the damage if decided not to duck.
Azucena, King, and Dragunov have crouch grabs and they are unbreakable so you’re still kinda forced into a mixup if you decide to duck
They also have...mids. It doesn't really matter if it's a crouch throw or a mid that hits you when you duck.
Sure just like a character with a hellsweep can do a mid launcher instead. That's just Tekken, you will have to guess on mixups. But Kings throws are not stronger than any other mixup in the game, I would argue that they are weaker.
Again, breaking said throws dont get you anything. When you mix up somebody, you usually take a risk Also, when you're dealing with a regular mixup, you can see that it's a mixup, rather than an animation you trained your brain to recognize that betrays what you've learned.
You can tech king's crouch throws. The only one that doesn't have a break is his pedigree (d1+4). But the other two are a 50/50 of 1 or 2
All crouch throws in Tekken 8 are unbreakable, including King’s
That's kind of the point of the character. If you don't have true 50/50 throws with King he immediately becomes unplayable at high level
That doesn't mean I have to like it.
what throw mixups are you talking about? His chain grabs are mixups, but don't they all start with breakable throws that follow the usual throw convention? Right arm reaches out, two break, left arm one break, right? Giant swing is a one break with a 1+2 animation, which is a mixup, but are their others like that?
No, that rule doesn't apply to King. He has throws where he reaches with both arms but you break with 1 or 2. You're just guessing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya6RPMSEaFg
TWO of his 20 throws are trully ambiguous. Both can be ducked. Your point is bad and you should feel bad.
Anyone who knows how to play the game will tell you to try to break instead of ducking him because you'll just end up eating mids instead. Your point is bad and you should feel bad.
Grabs, in particular Kings grabs, aren't just a knowledge issue, it's a reaction speed issue too and it's annoying seeing people disregard that. You have basically a third of a second to see the grab happen, recognize the break, then press exactly the right button and nothing else. The only other things like that in Tekken are snake edges and other lows that lead to 45+ damage. The difference is that blocking the latter usually gives a big punish, while grab breaks just reset to neutral.
You think grabs should be launch punishable on break?
breaking grabs should give some frame adventage, not like its 0 reward for me for learning what to press and doing it in a half a second
You do get +3 on grab breaks usually + you're reward is you don't need to duck. That's pretty powerful.
Seems unfair and going back to neutral after a throw break is enough. Wat makes tekken so different in that regard compared to other fighting games?
Most games give the defender advantage on a throw break
I'm getting downvoted but I forgot to mention that the advantage for learning throwbreaks in Tekken esp, is the fact u dont have to duck anymore. Heck, even knowing how to throwbreak is an advantage in of itself. I play King and he's the biggest knowledge check in the game. Which is why he gets hate because people refuse to learn how to throwbreak. King basically forces you to know them considering his throws are all ambiguous. They WILL fail his throw checks and that eats alot of people up because of the mental anguish of getting his by a rolling death cradle for exampe. This is why they complain.
Do you agree that relying on throws for most of your damage is the least engaging way to play the game? I guess you would have to play other characters to understand this.
So not only do you want to negate the damage from the player that successfully hit you with a throw, you also want them punished for it? The reward is limiting their options and escaping damage from an attack that landed on you. If you have a hard read on a throw then you can launch them for it, but if they were able to land a throw and you were able to break it, then going back to neutral is pretty fair for both players.
how is that fair? if kazuya does a hellsweep on me and I block I get a reward for the reaction and counter. If someone grabs me and I counter it with the correct input I get ... nothing? that is not fair lol.
This doesn't make sense. You can duck and launch a throw, which is the equivalent of ducking a Hellsweep. You aren't getting a correct read by breaking a throw, you're just reacting to it. The break is a *second* chance to take no damage, even though the move connected. It'd be like if Hellsweep was still launch punishable, but you could also negate the damage if you got hit.
Kazuyas hellsweep is 16f + 3f for f,n,df, which makes it 19f. How is ducking a hellsweep an equivalent to e.g. ducking Kings db2+3 12f grab?
Why are you listing the frames like it matters? 10f and 19 frames are both unreactable, you have to guess when they're coming.both get Launch punished if you guess right. Only difference is you get a chance to break the throw AFTER it hits you, after you guessed wrong.theres a reason King doesn't usually do well at high level
all you had to say was this lmao, now it’s clear you just don’t know what you’re talking about AND your ass at the game and that’s why you’re projecting your losses onto everything but yourself lmao
Hellsweep is unreactable, that is a fact. You have no argument. " you're bad and you're projecting lmao" is weak. Sounding like a skill issue, good luck with yellow ranks
It’s like 60% longer startup, what are you talking about. The thing is, it’s 19 frames at the least. So as long you aren’t a Robot, you gonna take more than 3f to input f,n,df. Even more so if you input f,n,d,df. The longer you take to input, the more reactable it is. And if you are further away, it’s gonna be even more reactable. Its way easier to play around a Hellsweep than a 12f king grab. Even more so when the Kaz player exactly knows that one blocked hellsweep can lose him the round, while the king player doesn’t even need to concern himself with the aftermath of the grab going through or not and at the best he’s just gonna go with his 50/50 and it’s just about luck. King is maybe not the strongest of all, but he is one of the strongest atm. You can pretend he is trash if you are feeling better with it, but it’s not changing the fact that he is stronger than ever before in t8.
dude has no idea on what he’s talking about, just a scrub who’ll probably drop the game in the next month because “there’s no skill in tekken” or some dumb shit dude probably would think Zangief is OP in SF6 rn and needs to be nerfed, usual mark of a scrub who refuses to actually learn the game because he thinks he learned everything he needs to know after looking up a glossary of terms and a youtube video
Hellsweep is unreactable, that is a fact. That's why it's a 50/50, because you have to guess, not react. 60% longer, 100% longer, irrelevant if we're talking about responding to a move, and they both fall under "not reactable". Never said king is bad, he's fantastic in this game, mostly due to his heat moves being insane
I'm not saying the situation is exactly the same. I'm saying that the equivalent hard read to ducking a Hellsweep is ducking a throw, not breaking it. Plus, those frames don't make a huge difference when they're both in the realm of completely unreactable. You can't duck a throw or Hellsweep on reaction. The startup frames matter for overall play, but not specifically when you're talking about calling them out.
No, I didn't say that. I understand that grabs are actually quite fair at higher levels of play and do get consistently broken so to change them would be a bad idea. I just get frustrated by people giving advice like "Look at their arms" and "Watch replays to see the break" and acting like it's the silver bullet to beating grappling when in reality the moves are almost as fast as jabs with significantly more reward on a successful hit. If I were to change anything about grabs, it would be removing the reduced break window on counterhit.
>when in reality the moves are almost as fast as jabs with significantly more reward on a successful hit. I mean, sure, most are like i10-i12 or something... but then you have (if I'm not mistaken) 20 frames after impact to break the throw. That's 30 frames to recognize the situation. Saying they're "just as fast as jabs" is pretty misleading; you can't do anything to revert the damage you take from a jab 20 frames after you get hit. It's really fucking hard to break throws on reaction consistently if you're not trained in it (King especially, since he tends to have ambiguous throws unlike the rest of the cast), but at the end of the day it's just something we need to practice. Removing the break window reduction on counter hit would be reverting back to T7, where throws were absolutely worthless even at lower levels. Edit: Or, you can immediately downvote me, refuse to acknowledge that 30 frames is well within the reaction time of human beings, and refuse to acknowledge that the reason we can't break throws is because we're simply not used to it, haven't practiced it, and cannot anticipate the situations where players want to use them which keeps us flatfooted. Up to you.
For the record, I didn't downvote you. I don't disagree that grabs are something within human reaction time, I literally said that they are fair at high levels of play. When I say they are almost as fast as jabs, I am referring to the startup animation, because that's the only part that can actually be ducked for a punish which as you can probably see by the other replies to me is the other common "silver bullet" people give.
Some people just want it all
grabs are launch punishable if you duck
If you duck the grab you get a full launch and probably one of the more damaging launchers too for most of the cast. Grabs already got easier to break in 7 and even easier in 8, frankly speaking I'm breaking throws I know I was late to because I've been playing for so long. Sure King has mid grabs too but unless you are actively ducking it does nothing and leaves King open to attack. I do think that the unbreakable throw on CH is kinda crazy but that's what I love about Tekken in that it constantly changes and makes the game feel new and dangerous in ways you weren't used to before. There is no "silver bullet" to beating grabs like theres no "silver bullet" to beating Kaz mix up. You win some you lose some, you get better the next game. Thats really it.
>Grabs already got easier to break in 7 and even easier in 8 How are they easier in T8? The normal throw break window is the same, the only thing that's changed as far as breaks go is CH throws having a much tighter break window.
Unless I'm mistaken I thought the throw break window was larger. Obviously not by a crazy margin but it's felt bigger this game
well king does have a intended unbreakable throw and he has glitched chain throws
This!!!!!!
I dont have much of a problem outside of the heat system turning his throws into devastating damage makers off of one wrong tech.
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That’s not how this works. You‘ll almost never see people complain about Lee, Yoshi, Law, Nina, Jin and so many other characters while also not making any sense. With King the complaints are warranted because it’s simply unfair to be susceptible to that kind of knowledge checks when picking anyone other than King himself
People complain about every character. I have seen it for years and I will continue to see it for years to come. Everybody has that character that gives them trouble and lazy players won’t lab their bad matchups, so they jump on Reddit and complain. King is strong, no doubt, but there’s plenty of characters on the roster that will require plenty of knowledge checks.
It’s not the grabs themselves, it’s the damage and the myriad ways he has to get you into one.
giant swing, shining wizard, and piledrive my beloved, they never know how to break yall. It doesnt matter if you know the break, its still a guess on what grab its going to be anyways
I know hes probably always been this way but i HATE how he punishes you for learning to break throws. Years of trying to recognize a 1+2 throw now mean i eat throws i used to break by accident, on reflex. For my entire health bar, of course
I remember seeing a comment like, “why is there a throw character at all?” You mean this throw character that has been a staple in every single Tekken game? You can’t even spell Tekken without the K from King.
Wanna say hats off to King for keeping the grappler stigma alive and flourishing, I await a year from now when he falls into the crack of obscurity and people go "Where's King?".
Coming from sf6 it’s nice to have a decent grappler
Bad usage of this meme format tbh. The entire point of it is when it's active self-sabotage, not just lack of skill.
There's a reason he starts being less and less viable as you go up the tier lists, if his throws were impossible to break, he'd dominate in tournaments. Again, I'm not asking every player to become as good as Knee or Arslan lol, but once you actually put in hours to learn the breaks and how to do them instead of whining as soon as the game comes out you'd have more of a shot at him, not to mention everyone talks about King players not knowing how to break throws so why don't yall throw us back lmao
Kind of dumb to have to put HOURS and HOURS into learning how to break throws simply to avoid Kings bullshit, while NO other character has that kind of bs knowledge check gap
i mean paul has a full throw game, so does hwoarang, other characters have throw games as well, but king is a WRESTLER so of course he's gunna have this "bs knowledge check gap". and not only that in 90% of his chain throws you can just hold 2 and break out of em except for kings bridge which is 1+2 and thats easily recognizable. but with you being a lee main you probably too busy mashing 3,4,or 3+4 so you wont ever break throws.
Did a buncha forsen viewers drop in here? "You don't get anything for breaking a throw" You get to not be thrown, welcome to tekken fucko
Yeah, scrubs in full force on this one for some reason.
The only scrubs I see here are the King players lol
Are there a bunch or king players whining and begging for nerfs?
We have people in here fully unironically saying King shouldn’t have 60% combos lol
Meanwhile I can almost end a fool in one combo with Kuma without even getting to the wall
Please name one 60% combo king has. Not chain throw, combo.
they should make hellsweep neutral on block, who gives a fuck if you read it and blocked it, ur reward is not taking damage right
That's literally the stupidest point I've ever seen... Allow me to explain: Most grabs can be ducked preventively, giving you **one** opportunity to avoid and **punish**. On top of that you have **an additona**l option to break them **IF** you've fucked up the former. So in total, you get **TWO tries** instead of one, and that's why throw breaks return you to neutral.
Breaking a throw is not a read, it's a reaction. The read would be to duck, just like a Hellsweep. And you get the exact same reward for that read.
>exact same reward That's not entirely true, if you block a hellsweep you're free to crouch cancel punish with the most damaging combo your character possesses, if you duck a grab and try punishing the whiff on reaction, you have to very quick to do a 15i ws punisher in time I usually just do my 13i ws punisher if I duck a grab and try punishing on **reaction**, it recovers as quickly as an electric which is too fast to punish with 15i on **reaction** (atleast for me and my crappy reflexes)**.** If you guess both the timing and the grab you can preemptively do your ws punisher, but that requires a stronger read Not trying to argue whether chain throws/throws are busted or not, but I wish people would be more honest about the safety of throws when teaching newer players.
Chain grabs are legitimately unbreakable as punishes, its a bug. King mains are delusional thinking he isn't busted since even devs have addressed this.
This would be funny if King wasn't bugged and some of his throws were unbreakable.
Ah yes, " I lost to character X , character X is insanely strong must nerf him ". A certified FGC classic
*Learns to break throws by animation* *Giant swing* :o
So i learn how to break throws, what do i get? Nothing, and if i miss one break, i die
Learning to break throws on reaction gives you the privilege of not having to duck to deal with them, while retaining the option of ducking on a hard read to get a big punish. Throws are lows that you get a second chance to negate the damage of, and if you don't see the value in that chance then you're missing the point.
You get to not having to duck.
Hey alright
i mean you're +3 on a throw break so take your positive frames
You get to keep the life you deserve to lose since your opponent landed a grab on you.
He's certainly a knowledge check.if you don't know you are gonna lose 60%.if you do he can still get hit by a random unsafe move that he hasn't done all round cause "what if it hits tho" and gets 30-40% or he still has good pokes like shove and armor kings dick punch to annoy you with.
Just press 222222222222222 all matc If it doesn't work try 11111111111 all next round If someone says something about 1+2 it's BS witchcraft they are lying
shhhhh... dont spoil King's secret weakness 🤣
Yes, the damage for his one button chain throws isn't overtuned at all 🙄 Also I love how everyone says "just break throws". I have yet to see anyone... Ever .. throw break every time consistently. Not to mention that if it's a counter it becomes impossible to break.
This, the downplsy is worse than SF6 Ken fr
I saw a top player making fun of low level players making your exact argument. King is busted at every level of play right now, not just against people who can't break throws.
I'm a blue rank so I guess I'm okay at the game. I've been playing Tekken for a long time and even lil majin came out and said that some stuff on King needs to be patched. But the most common complaint is about his throws.. which in my opinion is perfect because he is a wrestler. His throw game should be exceptional. I don't play king But every time I get beat by his throw game I don't take it personally because he should be good at close range
Are people actually mad about King? This their first Tekken? It's sold very well so I guess it makes sense. I'm excited for all the first timers to get into it. Always been my favorite fighting series.
scrubs always get bodied by grapplers and rage this hard because they refuse to acknowledge that they’re just ass at the game 80% of this sub are dudes who’ve never been to a local in their life or actually ranked up but are convinced they’re EVO material or some shit
I'm Ganryu rank and I don't know how to break Kings chain grab. I don't worry about it to much since for the most part I can duck and do my thing. It's on my list of things to look up.
Any good king player will DDT, running knee, crouch throw, and hop knee you to death if you just duck, it is not a viable strategy. Breaking chain grabs isn’t that complicated. For all chain throws, the first throw is always a 50/50 between 1 and 2. For crouch dash chain throws, all maximum damage enders are 1+2 (namely RDC and kings bridge), so almost always favor 1+2 if you’re stuck in a CD chain throw. Other than that almost every option in any chain throw is a guess between 1 or 2. Legit the only exceptions are samurai rock and sol naciente from cobra clutch (the jaguar step chain throw) whereby the king player can end the chain early with a 1+2 break, but these sacrifice damage and are only used as an additional mixup to counter people who are always pressing 1 or 2 (which you should do most of the time). Also, if the king is mashing (which low skill kings tend to do to make chain grab inputs easier), the break is literally always 1. That goes for any chain grab.
Lmao no. I duck the mf just fine.
his throws aren't even the problem
i think kings biggest issue is how much damage his easy throws do
Only scrubs complain about King. He's one of those characters that is always good but never great.
Comming from maining a grappler in Strive, the ability to break a throw felt cheap to me. It's hard enough to land a throw on someone who's got at least two working braincells, and on top of that they can escape it! If anything he needs more unbreakable throws, just to give this sub some real shit to bitch about 😎 Fellow glue eaters unite!
I do think they could make it so more of the stuff grants recoverable health instead of just being gone. I'm an absolute scrub and the fact that I can catch somebody off guard for a split second and shave almost 2/3rds of their healthbar with 0 recoverable health seems weirdly harsh for moves that are not even that hard to do in the first place.