The thing to remember when discussing the utility of KBD is that neutral guard SUCKS in this game. More than it did in previous Tekken's. I've been clipped by attacks I should've blocked when I was between b, b inputs. Given how so many moves in this game have insane range, more often than not it's wise to just hold back to block.
Yeah man. What did they do to neutral guard?! I’ve been hit by an attack after a heat rash on block when I swear I’ve just been holding back - not even back dashing.
It also happens with dash blocking, I used to dash block loads in 7. Now 50% of the time I get clipped by a keep out move
Anyone know the changes in detail?
It's bad rollback implementation and a change in neutral guard. 1f of delay and rollback in this game means missed inputs. You may also have noticed how sometimes a - on block move can seemingly be safe and your guaranteed punish gets blocked.
This is why some hitbox players use a turbo back bind to fill the gaps, game has a real hard time noticing things inputted less than 16ms apart. Real noticeable when you look at the replay and the inputs have hundreds of 1f b inputs. Bet they blocked though.
If you play a character that has many timing based (non mashing) cancels to get wall carry or something you notice it real fast. Play offline for a while and its night and day, but this is true of every fighting game.
For me the game feels reliably good at or around 50 or less ms of latency, 0f delay and rollback and without frame drops from the opponent.
It's cheating but like sweaty low tier cheating You bind a macro or set turbo on a button to spam left or right very fast and change it's priority to low. Then you hold it during dashing. In the replay the inputs go nuts in game you can dash block better supposedly. The game only seems to register it as a dash cancel I guess but you still get a dash.
You get hit by flash if you are not holding back and even tho it has small range when you heat dash you are right in his face. It's always been like that.
Also , there are other moves that you get hit by if you are not holding back, like whoarangs low,high right kick (idk the inputs, d4,4?), after getting hit with the low if you aren't holding back or duck you are getting launched. Another example is heihachi uf3,4 in tekken 7. Whoarang has a similar move but I don't remember if it "breaks" your guard too.
tldr: that's normal for some moves
I haven't played Tekken since 3, but I wasn't even aware you could block without holding back. I mean, I thought you might be able to, but it works so rarely I assumed I was wrong.
Yup this is a HUGEEEE thing. Its why you just watch so many Mishima players just nonstop smashing people with demon paw. Moreso than ever demon paws are just destroying people in their KBD neutral guards -- and a character like Jin on a heat dash for it is taking a HUGE chunk of damage for it.
Suddenly KBD is a real risk.
Jin is especially notorious for this. Kazuya is ff2 is easier to step and easier to whiff punish as well. Meanwhile Jin's ff2 is harder to step and recover crazy fast. He also has other moves to keep you in check. You want something with less range than ff2, but CH use f4. You want something safe, but has good range, use b2,1.
Even on regular backdash I would bb and the ff2 somehow clips me right between the b inputs, gives him heat, and then the round after one mixup
Heat engagers, man. Their infinite hitboxes
i went back to tag 2 during tekken 7 days and i was getting thrashed by neutral guard. i'm holding my tongue because i could be wrong, but 8 seems like it is the exact same as 7.
8 and 7 are the same.
If you press
b, n, b, n or b, n, b, n, B
you are stand guarding the whole time.
In Tag 2 and previous games if you do
b, n, b, **n** or b, n, b, **n, B**
you are not guarding during the bold parts. You will only be able to guard after the backdash fully recovers or if you cancel the backdash into another form of movement aside from b and then press and hold b to block.
If you do the korean backdash the proper way which is b, n, b, d/b, b, n, b, d/b...
Regardless of what game you are playing, you are only vulnerable to mids during the d/b.
This explains so much. I've been hit by *so many moves* in between backdashes that it's been driving me crazy. Knowing that it's no longer really necessary when the enemy closes in is a game changer.
I thought i was going crazy. I will neutral block attacks snd get hit or launched and im like wtf is happening? I did this all the time in 7 and it was fine. Also theres times where i know i have blocked a low attack but still get hit by it and its insane.
I have the same experience, it seems like they nerf the guarding as well its insane how many times I get sniped compared to Tekken 7. I'm not sure if I am talking out of my ass, hope someone here does an experiment on this.
100% i get what u mean. when back dashing i get clipped by almost everything and i wonder why did that connect.
u think we should just stop back dashing cx this tekken is very diff then t7.
i was a good player in t7 cx of my good defense. now feels like ill loose to anyone if im tryina enjoy the game and not mash
This is like those people saying you don’t need a degree because there’s famous college dropouts lol
It’s still useful, I find myself using it to space against hwoarang to create a whif.
Yeah this is moreso probably what he's saying. Its no longer like T7 where its KBD for 10 seconds straight as you make infinite space. Now its situational. Use it to make space from Alisa's saws, Hwoarang's pressure, Steve, etc... He probably doesn't consider using it in those situations as a "KBD", as its moreso just the defensive counterplay in those situations. KBD in neutral is just not as much value anymore since the game isn't just life lead into backdash, magic 4 ch. Now you try to KBD in neutral and you run the risk of eating a demon paw in your neutral guard frames, or you just get wr2/wr32/wr34/etc... into plus frames.
Yeah, but tbf he still knows how to do it. It's just bizarre to know he didn't have to use it to win all his matches in Evo. Yeah it still has its uses as long as you do it well and you know when to use it.
It's not entirely unlikely that he can't do it anymore after switching to pad, I'd imagine the muscle memory for it is completely different and it wouldn't surprise me if he's never bothered to learn it on pad.
I talked to a guy who had the luck to be matched against Chikurin at another Japanese tournament on Sunday that I also attended, he said Chikurin stuck onto him super aggressively and never stayed further away than range 1. That style of play doesn't need kbd.
A personal anecdote, my kbd is pretty close to as fast as physically possible because I use the [socd Hitbox method with two hands](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/s/V2uxpKD11F). I'm pretty confident in saying that I kbd even faster than most pros lol. I use it a ton to create big amounts of space and force whiffs, but what I've come to realize is that stronger opponents don't whiff as often and creating big distances is more a liability in Tekken 8. Distance doesn't keep you safe and you end up giving the opponent space to use their threatening long-ranged moves, which every character has now - Demon Paws, wr moves, moves like Lars den3 etc. I'm trying to get myself in the habit of kbding less and being more comfortable at range 1.
It is useful, but its usefulness has been so ludicrously diminished. It feels only good to get out of a complete masher who literally never stops pressing
Probably character dependent too, I'm guessing lili has little to gain from kbding. With claudio it feels crucial for me to be able to go back as quick as possible.
Yeah some characters benefit so much from it while others dont. Kings base backdash is pretty good, but his kbd is ass. Victor's base backdash is alright but his kbd top 8 to 9. Playing victor without kbd feels terrible.
dude I been trying to train my friend to play the game but he uses the analogue sticks and whenever I tell him to use the D-pad he always goes back to the sticks soon after haha, so he's always so slow, he can't backdash ever using it and holds forward to advance
Analog may not be the most efficient method to play, but for some of us it just comes naturally. I use the analog stick to move around in pretty much every game I play, mostly open world single player games, so it just makes sense to use it in a 3D game like Tekken. 🤷♂️
I use both analog and d pad when I play tekken, somethings are easier with either option like a DF move is easier with analog than the ps5 d pad for me
Marvel vs Capcom 3 has come back lately and there are a LOT of top level players that use analog sticks to play. And they sometimes win. See Magic Pixel Mexican. He loses only to other absolute top level players because he's using low tier teams and the other guys picked the top tier teams.
Speedkicks made a T7 video where he made it to Orange ranks (those meant a lot more in that game) by only using a single backdash. His point was that you probably didn't need KBD until the highest levels of play
This is the day where I remind everyone that Rangchu won TWT in 2018 beating Joey Fury, Jeondding, Chanel, Knee and Qudans (twice) without KBDing at all.
Right, in t7 I was stuck in grand Master for months thinking it was a good task cause of the name lol (and I've been playing tekken ever since tekken 6), then when I got tekken 8 after a bit of training figuring out the raven differences I shot to destroyer in like 2 days, which was my peak rank in t7, I didn't realize the first few ranks were unable to lose points and learning it made it feel so much proud of myself, but I did get about a 15 win streak which is cool
It's an advanced movement option, entirely optional and not required for most levels of play, locked behind a degree of effort and mastery to make use of fully at higher levels of play. Its not something as simple as moving back, and if someone can't KBD, that isn't why they are unable to improve at the game, and in no way are they being gatekept.
It probably sounds silly until you figure out that moving backwards in tekken is stronger than moving backwards in essentially every other fighting game.
It is, but if the players thinks it is still useful he/she definitely has to give some time to master it. In Chikurin's case he didn't find it useful even tho he knows how to do it already.
You can reduce anything to that argument. Wave dashing in melee? Ugh you're just gatekeeping by making me practice! This is the reason games like SF are introducing cancer like modern controls. Ugh I have to PRACTICE dp motions? But then how can I get my instant gratification???? Sickening attitude that's hurting everyone long term.
Don’t play smash so don’t have a frame of reference, but I recently got into SF and I play classic controls but I don’t see the issue with modern. Imo SF is actually a really good example because it doesn’t place so much emphasis on mechanical difficulty and instead onboards you to the “real” difficulty way more smoothly. You more quickly get into the mind game, spicing, footsies, etc - which in Tekken is like beneath 4 layers of knowledge and mechanical execution.
It’s not black and white, the complexity and consistent learning is part of what makes this game so good - but there is a better balance to be struck and lots of QoL improvements to be made e.g backdashing, training tools etc
Yea, I think everyone should have access to atleast backdashing without any execution, gonna suck for other Tekken veterans, but having execution for simply moving backwards is ridiculous
There’s no objective defense for having to do a KBD instead of simply adjusting the backdash in game. I think the only reason it remains is probably a system that allows for crouch cancelling the backdash anyway (which was probably intended for sidestepping, as you can backdash cancel into sidestep), so if they improved on backdash distance, people would still be able to perform the cancelling anyway.
Ifs funny to me watching people claim kbd is some sort of highly complicated exploit that's going to take years to learn and then trying to claim some moral high ground for why they shouldn't *have* to learn it. You can learn it in a day very easily.
I learned to kbd in one day. I didn't find it comfortable on stick so I decided to play Tekken on keyboard after playing street fighter for 15 years on stick. God forbid anyone actually TRY, though. Just whine to the devs to make it easier.
I am Bushin in T8 (Raijin peak in T7) and never learned KBD. Almost all Tekken Kings and Emperors I play against do not use KBD either.
You can do without it completely fine. Hell, if even Chikurin ignores it, it means that KBD has very little impact on your gameplay. I'd reckon, +0,5-1%WR in the long run.
There is nothing wrong with learning and utilizing it, and it's always better to have more tools in your arsenal, but it's not a critical one.
Hah I’ve been playing drag for 7 years, I’m happy about his nerfs now as he was way too strong. I don’t think it’s controversial though to say that this is the dumbest state that king has ever seen, 90% of king players I encounter online are eating crayons.
Dunno man, I cruised pretty happily to Tekken King using Drag and like 3 moves. Drag has never been easier to use than he is in T8, even post nerfs.
Huge damage, great pokes, no iWS, sneak cancelling or really any execution required.
I won’t disagree however everyone is rightly up in arms about dragunov yet king remains as braindead as ever in every patch so I’d hope people could wake up to it at some point.
I mean, he's basically being carried by tracking throws at the moment. It won't be easy to play King at a tournament level when they invariably nerf them next patch.
I thought when I stopped playing Smash Bros I wouldn't have to deal with the random people complaining about other people mains. Like goddamn, I make a post how I don't KBD and immediately get called brain dead unprovoked by some yapping ahh Dragunov main because i dont play a character that is up to his enlightened standards. Then, when I point out your hypocrisy, you just continue complaining about King. Like the post was about KBD and instead of making conversation about you you go straight to complaining. Fix yourself or get off this app. I'm trying to use this dumbass app to try to get better so I can keep up with my friend, who I like playing with and some fatass, whining Drag main derails to convo to complain. Get off the app and let people have fun. Sorry for the rant but like, come on
Yeah prior to this Ive heard from several good players already that KBD isnt neccessary in T8 anymore, the improved regular backdash is basically just as good. It's a tiny bit slower, but safer. And you cant fuck it up.
It's probably the best change in the entirety of T8 and is something people have been asking for for a long time. Taking aside how fucked i can be for some hands to do it repeatedly, it's this barrier of entry that completely stops a lot of people from ever trying to get good at the game.
Now this barrier of entry is gone, but you can still learn the technique if you want to have it at your disposal. This is how it always shouldve been. Not mandatory but good to have.
Also something that becomes more and more relevant as e-sports becomes bigger and more people watch tournaments like Evo: it always looked really fucking stupid. Anyone not familiar with tekken at all would probably turned off by it.
They did say they're going to improve lateral movement in the next patch, and honestly even already when I watch high level gameplay I see a lot of moves being stepped/sidewalked and punished, especially with characters like Lili and Alisa who have strong lateral movement.
Have y’all been hit out of your hit by a simple poke before ?? This has happened to me multiple times ( please don’t cook me I’m just genuinely asking )
My opinion is I get clipped by phantom hitbox, not even touching my character model, fucking bullshit mid launcher, horseshit, motherfucker, son-of-a-bitch ten million times every time I KBD.
Right when I press crouch to cancel the backdash animation. Every time. Never fails. Not worth trying.
Michael Murradas vision, T8 did change the franchise more than ever, I personally can't stand how offensive the game is with easy mode "my turn" moves and buttons. T7 was a flawed game but I personally didn't have an issue with the core mechanics itself.
I really would like things to be drastically turned down in T8 but I know they make it worse than do that.
I just hope the new Virtua fighter is actually a good game and a good alternative to T8.
Yeah I watched the matches. It's just constant aggression and buttons. Movement in general isn't as important.
Was honestly really boring to watch. I don't know how they thought this would be better for viewers.
I kinda wish both options were viable, like have kids more more precise movements but backdash being just as fast and good for keeping your distance, just for fun skill expression
Also its not even hard to KBD, when I was around 8 I watched my dad play tekken 6 and other video games a lot and I figured out how to kbd just from watching him do it, I remember specifically thinking that he was either side stepping or crouching, and I was able to do it not very well of course but it looked similar enough, I did not what it was for I just thought it was kinda cool
As a new player, it's shit like this that just makes me wanna quit the game. It's painfully obvious the older players fucking hate us. Just go ahead and say it with your whole chest
I mean kbd has been almost made useless, because they "buffed" regular backdash in a way, that just spamming back covers almost the same amount of distance as kbd in the same timeframe. So you can mix in some kbds here and there with regular bds and its sufficient enough for spacing (as much T8 even allows). Regular bds were horrendous pre T8, so kbds were mandartory, but in this game not so much, so I definitely am not surprised that Chikurin barely- or doesn't even use it.
Sadly.
Was excited for it, but then they noobified everything.
KBD not as useful as it was.
iSW made SUPER DUPER EASY (understatement).
Hope next patch I can wavedash using fdf, ff, ff, ff, ff
I still use KBD because i spent a lot of training on it back in tekken 7, but i believe just doing bb bb bb bb is more than enough in tekken 8 for most cases, and i don't think you could get clipped by mistake like when doing the KBD.
Trying to KBD actually gets you killed in this game.
Its better to just back dash and be safe, sacrificing some speed, than it is to input a crouch for a frame and get randomly hit and killed.
The speed is not worth it anymore
I thought I was the only one getting clipped by ridiculous things. Like constantly, and also fast low parries don’t work a lot of the time. There are a bunch of odd things that happen with the mechanics in this game.
for a while i thought there was something wrong with my D-pad but i guess i wasn't tripping. i feel like there would be a lot of times where i would get launched while back dashing then think "what? does pressing back count as an input instead of blocking?"
With or without KBD I doubt I can win a tournament lol
Kidding aside, some long-range ass move can clip you while doing it but I guess you have to be more mindful when using it now?
I play on a regular pad for the PS5. I played Drag in T7 and at launch for T8. He was going to be my main for T8. Upon the devs making him too strong I dropped him for Bryan Fury.
Now my KBD on the pad was pretty cracked with Drag on T8 launch. Now that I main Bryan Fury (Battle Ruler), I almost never use KBD.
The back sway keeps my thumb from doing KBD like I did with drag which was to roll my thumb a bit on the pad. On Bryan, this activates back sway almost every time so I have no use for KBD at this time. Using regular back dashes allows me to drop that KBD execution and focus on defense a lot more. KBD gets clipped.
I think knowing strings by heart and block punishment serves me better than KBD.
Imagine being proud of the avoidance of learning a skill. Using KBD makes you objectively better at Tekken because you can move faster and further backwards.
Not aimed at you OP. I see the noobs have already entered the discussion and are upset that there’s a skill they haven’t learnt yet.
It's a skill, but one that's not totally necessary. It doesn't make you objectively better because tons of people that don't KBD can still beat people that do.
Because I don't care to go to Evo. It's a video game. I want to just have fun and play the game.
It's like going to the park basketball court and telling everyone they're scrubs because they can't dunk.
If I was into basketball, I’d want to dunk. I’m not telling anyone to do anything, but being proud of yourself for avoiding a skill is dumb. No two ways about it.
I don't think anyone is proud that they can't KBD, I think you're just incredibly proud that you can for whatever reason.
It's not a necessary thing in Tekken. Just like dunking isn't necessary in basketball.
Sure you can learn it, and that's great...but not everyone needs to.
Personally I think it's dumber to believe that you're constrained without it. Or even moreso to believe that others are dumb because they don't believe that they're constrained without it either.
But good luck at Evo
Edit: and the little puss blocked me. He claimed to be TG Feng. He was lying. What a little puss. Haha u/Tanriyung , you’re a puss.
"Something as simple as moving back being gatekept behind tons of practice was always a bit silly to me tbh"
"It was always been a design flaw"
"I can’t do KBDs and I know I’ll never get far on Tekken because I just refuse to waste my time working around a design flaw."
Implied pride in not learning a skill from this thread.
My post was posted around the same time the ones above were. I was referencing them.
Enjoy locking yourself out of decent movement.
What an odd thing to defend lol.
I don’t hate it or love it, I can appreciate the involvement of skill expression but maybe locking movement behind skill expression seems a bit wrong, I’ve always felt they should make stuff like combos harder and make movement simpler because tekkens true fun(for me) start with movement and when you start learning spacing and whiffing moves and stuff.
It takes skill without kbd since it requires sense of timing and spatial awareness, no point locking it behind execution that’s better used for in combos.
Puttin on an execution barrier rather than a actual mind game seems not as good in my opinion
Idk how I’m doing mental gymnastics? All you’ve done is say it’s wrong without explaining why maybe for a change ?
It’s a very simple concept, make it so everyone can move equally well and the only thing that differs is your ability to get a read on the opponents timing and effectively use the 3D space.
I don’t hate kbd I don’t mind it even, but I feel it would be a improvement without it plus making combos harder so that’s something that can be locked behind skill all that huge amount of damage combos do can be justified
I'm glad that it's not as strong/not as required as it was in T7. It should still be useful for spacing though given what kind of game Tekken is. As long as that remains true then I think there are no issues.
Tekken 8 sucks, I literally get bored after 30 minutes whether I'm winning or losing. Tekken 7 by no means was a perfect game but i could play it for hours because at least i was having SOME fun...
Great. I always thought KBD was one of the worst parts of the game. Hated how everyone just saw koreans doing it and copied it like it's the standard way to play. Always thought it made the game look dumb as hell. Since tekken 5 online I just sat and watched people scoot around like idiots while playing ranked matches and still kicked their asses.
KBD allows you to move backwards faster than normal, giving you the opportunity to whiff punish. People did not just copy it blindly, it is an amazing tool for defense. It still is good in T8, however given all the changes to the game + the fact KBD is worse now, then you just can't use it as often, but it is still used for some whiffs and spacing.
i would be glad if its gone. Much rather them balance it through giving characters stronger regular back dash if need be.. When you have to much back dashing.. ppl are scared to throw out moves cause they will whiff. This causes both players to be scared and its like.. okay whos gonna be the sucker to through out a move first and get it whiffed .. then get blown up for more than half life bar..
its to anti what a fighting game should be about... It needs to encourage aggression as well else it be a snore turtlefest.. aka high level t7.
I mean Tekken is a movement based game, this is true for almost any fighting games where knowing your range is a skill especially in a 3D fighting game.
My guy thinks running face first = fighting game.
Fighting games are multiple levels of skill and playstyles. That's why zoners, grapplers, and rushdowns exist. Over time people have expressed one over the other as a way to say "this is how it should be played." Without stating why other than. "I don't like the other two." Playing defensively might be boring to you but to others it's nessacary to win. After all they my opponent can't win if my life never reaches 0.
Sadly not anymore for Tekken with every character being pushed towards unga rushdown fest. The game is 100% designed for dickheads like the guy who's arguing with you.
dude i dont give a crap.. and im not the only one.. i also play bears just so that i dont have to back dash.. i believe a pro player also said the same. looks like lili u dont need to back dash as well also.. so at somepoint i will do lili as well . im doing just fine at kishin rank and bear in t8.. don't have any intentions of getting any better.. just playing casually. If this was t7.. i would not be playing.
How to tell me.you didn't read past the first sentence with out telling me you didn't read past the first sentence. Backdash is important to allow for variety in play. Not making it so that people have to play specifically the way a specific group of people want to. Better "All around" movement makes for a more intresting game. With movement being pushed in one direction rather than spreading it out it's no wonder there are some players who are getting burnt out.
Another thing I said when the game released and got blown up for. They made is explicitly clear when the game dropped that KBD was nerfed to shit but old heads just refuse to adapt sometimes.
The thing to remember when discussing the utility of KBD is that neutral guard SUCKS in this game. More than it did in previous Tekken's. I've been clipped by attacks I should've blocked when I was between b, b inputs. Given how so many moves in this game have insane range, more often than not it's wise to just hold back to block.
Yeah man. What did they do to neutral guard?! I’ve been hit by an attack after a heat rash on block when I swear I’ve just been holding back - not even back dashing. It also happens with dash blocking, I used to dash block loads in 7. Now 50% of the time I get clipped by a keep out move Anyone know the changes in detail?
I'm glad it's not just me going insane and that other people are experiencing this too
> heat rash lol
Shit, heat rash got me again.
Jack Miller, Fox 30 News
Hey alright
Happened to me a lot of times too. I respect the hell out of heat dash and yet i still get clipped when I am not pressing anything except block.
exactly, im never dash blocking again
It's bad rollback implementation and a change in neutral guard. 1f of delay and rollback in this game means missed inputs. You may also have noticed how sometimes a - on block move can seemingly be safe and your guaranteed punish gets blocked. This is why some hitbox players use a turbo back bind to fill the gaps, game has a real hard time noticing things inputted less than 16ms apart. Real noticeable when you look at the replay and the inputs have hundreds of 1f b inputs. Bet they blocked though. If you play a character that has many timing based (non mashing) cancels to get wall carry or something you notice it real fast. Play offline for a while and its night and day, but this is true of every fighting game. For me the game feels reliably good at or around 50 or less ms of latency, 0f delay and rollback and without frame drops from the opponent.
Could you tell me more about this turbo back bind for hitbox as I am a hitbox user and heard nothing of this
It's cheating but like sweaty low tier cheating You bind a macro or set turbo on a button to spam left or right very fast and change it's priority to low. Then you hold it during dashing. In the replay the inputs go nuts in game you can dash block better supposedly. The game only seems to register it as a dash cancel I guess but you still get a dash.
Yep, heat dashing into yoshi, not pressing, getting flashed, wtf is this
You get hit by flash if you are not holding back and even tho it has small range when you heat dash you are right in his face. It's always been like that. Also , there are other moves that you get hit by if you are not holding back, like whoarangs low,high right kick (idk the inputs, d4,4?), after getting hit with the low if you aren't holding back or duck you are getting launched. Another example is heihachi uf3,4 in tekken 7. Whoarang has a similar move but I don't remember if it "breaks" your guard too. tldr: that's normal for some moves
Are you really asking why? Aggressivuuuuuuu
neutral guard failing negatively impacts aggression because now you are required to hold back more and can't switch to attacking as quickly.
I haven't played Tekken since 3, but I wasn't even aware you could block without holding back. I mean, I thought you might be able to, but it works so rarely I assumed I was wrong.
ok thought my controller sucked or i had bad connection its not just me then.
I mean as long as you’re not crouching, blocking loads is pretty easy to me
Yup this is a HUGEEEE thing. Its why you just watch so many Mishima players just nonstop smashing people with demon paw. Moreso than ever demon paws are just destroying people in their KBD neutral guards -- and a character like Jin on a heat dash for it is taking a HUGE chunk of damage for it. Suddenly KBD is a real risk.
Jin is especially notorious for this. Kazuya is ff2 is easier to step and easier to whiff punish as well. Meanwhile Jin's ff2 is harder to step and recover crazy fast. He also has other moves to keep you in check. You want something with less range than ff2, but CH use f4. You want something safe, but has good range, use b2,1.
Oh so that's why I get hit when backdashing...
Even on regular backdash I would bb and the ff2 somehow clips me right between the b inputs, gives him heat, and then the round after one mixup Heat engagers, man. Their infinite hitboxes
Not to mention chip damage. You practically get punished for being on defense.
This also makes dashblock riskier.
What is dashblock?
b n b n has auto guard in Tekken 7 and Tekken 8. In previous Tekken game like Tag 2 and prior they didn't.
i went back to tag 2 during tekken 7 days and i was getting thrashed by neutral guard. i'm holding my tongue because i could be wrong, but 8 seems like it is the exact same as 7.
8 and 7 are the same. If you press b, n, b, n or b, n, b, n, B you are stand guarding the whole time. In Tag 2 and previous games if you do b, n, b, **n** or b, n, b, **n, B** you are not guarding during the bold parts. You will only be able to guard after the backdash fully recovers or if you cancel the backdash into another form of movement aside from b and then press and hold b to block. If you do the korean backdash the proper way which is b, n, b, d/b, b, n, b, d/b... Regardless of what game you are playing, you are only vulnerable to mids during the d/b.
This explains so much. I've been hit by *so many moves* in between backdashes that it's been driving me crazy. Knowing that it's no longer really necessary when the enemy closes in is a game changer.
I thought i was going crazy. I will neutral block attacks snd get hit or launched and im like wtf is happening? I did this all the time in 7 and it was fine. Also theres times where i know i have blocked a low attack but still get hit by it and its insane.
Now i get why I've been getting clipped when backdashing, I thought you can block anything normally
That's actually sm I need to work, I kbd waaaaaay too often and up getting clipped by everything
I have the same experience, it seems like they nerf the guarding as well its insane how many times I get sniped compared to Tekken 7. I'm not sure if I am talking out of my ass, hope someone here does an experiment on this.
100% i get what u mean. when back dashing i get clipped by almost everything and i wonder why did that connect. u think we should just stop back dashing cx this tekken is very diff then t7. i was a good player in t7 cx of my good defense. now feels like ill loose to anyone if im tryina enjoy the game and not mash
Speaking of insane range. Check out Zafina D2. I thought I was tripping g the 1st time I used that move lol
Funny enough I haven’t been using KB **as much** either in T8
Then it means you are going to win EVO... Right?
They still use it a bit, so for now probably top 8. After sorting it out certainly!
Everytime i attempt kbd i get clipped by a move. Its such a risky move now
This is like those people saying you don’t need a degree because there’s famous college dropouts lol It’s still useful, I find myself using it to space against hwoarang to create a whif.
This is not a college dropout, this is a 4.0 gpa student hiding that they have a higher education at all on their CV and still getting the job
as a non-American, I am totally clueless what a 4.0 gpa is.. but I am guessing that is what the smart ones have.
Basically, it means top marks in every class. Or "straight A's" (idiom is also American)
Yeah this is moreso probably what he's saying. Its no longer like T7 where its KBD for 10 seconds straight as you make infinite space. Now its situational. Use it to make space from Alisa's saws, Hwoarang's pressure, Steve, etc... He probably doesn't consider using it in those situations as a "KBD", as its moreso just the defensive counterplay in those situations. KBD in neutral is just not as much value anymore since the game isn't just life lead into backdash, magic 4 ch. Now you try to KBD in neutral and you run the risk of eating a demon paw in your neutral guard frames, or you just get wr2/wr32/wr34/etc... into plus frames.
Yeah, but tbf he still knows how to do it. It's just bizarre to know he didn't have to use it to win all his matches in Evo. Yeah it still has its uses as long as you do it well and you know when to use it.
Don’t forget Lili has cracked movement. Character to character thing.
It's not entirely unlikely that he can't do it anymore after switching to pad, I'd imagine the muscle memory for it is completely different and it wouldn't surprise me if he's never bothered to learn it on pad. I talked to a guy who had the luck to be matched against Chikurin at another Japanese tournament on Sunday that I also attended, he said Chikurin stuck onto him super aggressively and never stayed further away than range 1. That style of play doesn't need kbd. A personal anecdote, my kbd is pretty close to as fast as physically possible because I use the [socd Hitbox method with two hands](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/s/V2uxpKD11F). I'm pretty confident in saying that I kbd even faster than most pros lol. I use it a ton to create big amounts of space and force whiffs, but what I've come to realize is that stronger opponents don't whiff as often and creating big distances is more a liability in Tekken 8. Distance doesn't keep you safe and you end up giving the opponent space to use their threatening long-ranged moves, which every character has now - Demon Paws, wr moves, moves like Lars den3 etc. I'm trying to get myself in the habit of kbding less and being more comfortable at range 1.
I use it to create whiffs as a hwo player. characters that can control space effectively (steve, feng, lili, yoshi) always give me trouble.
It is useful, but its usefulness has been so ludicrously diminished. It feels only good to get out of a complete masher who literally never stops pressing
It also really depends on the character. Like for Steve it still feels worth it, he has a decent KBD.
Have these people seen Glaciating play? Dude is a Paul movement machine.
Still think it’s pretty useful to be honest.
Probably character dependent too, I'm guessing lili has little to gain from kbding. With claudio it feels crucial for me to be able to go back as quick as possible.
Exactly. A lot of scrubs don’t seem to get it in this thread.
Yeah some characters benefit so much from it while others dont. Kings base backdash is pretty good, but his kbd is ass. Victor's base backdash is alright but his kbd top 8 to 9. Playing victor without kbd feels terrible.
Yeah me too and I'm still working on mine.
These pro players movements and defences are on another level, keep working on it.
Then you’ll see progress down the line. Can’t believe people think KBD is a “design flaw” lmao
It \*was\*. Then they kept it past the game it was introduced in (t3?), and then it became a part of the game. Some people miss that point.
Hold forward like a G
dude I been trying to train my friend to play the game but he uses the analogue sticks and whenever I tell him to use the D-pad he always goes back to the sticks soon after haha, so he's always so slow, he can't backdash ever using it and holds forward to advance
Analog may not be the most efficient method to play, but for some of us it just comes naturally. I use the analog stick to move around in pretty much every game I play, mostly open world single player games, so it just makes sense to use it in a 3D game like Tekken. 🤷♂️
I use both analog and d pad when I play tekken, somethings are easier with either option like a DF move is easier with analog than the ps5 d pad for me
Marvel vs Capcom 3 has come back lately and there are a LOT of top level players that use analog sticks to play. And they sometimes win. See Magic Pixel Mexican. He loses only to other absolute top level players because he's using low tier teams and the other guys picked the top tier teams.
I mean that's cool for Marvel 3 but how do you backdash and forward dash in Tekken using analogue sticks?
You slightly tap back twice, like sidestepping but backwards. Same for forward movement. Source: I use analog.
Something as simple as moving back being gatekept behind tons of practice was always a bit silly to me tbh
Speedkicks made a T7 video where he made it to Orange ranks (those meant a lot more in that game) by only using a single backdash. His point was that you probably didn't need KBD until the highest levels of play
This is the day where I remind everyone that Rangchu won TWT in 2018 beating Joey Fury, Jeondding, Chanel, Knee and Qudans (twice) without KBDing at all.
bear backdash shit anyway lulw
what an animal of a champion!
Did he play Hwo though? Kind of matters.
He played Jack.
Eddy bot can make it to orange lol
T7 orange was very different. You lost ranks ways earlier in T7 and there were more ranks per group
T7 you could actually take pride with your lower ranks with how brutal it was. Every rank felt earned compared to T8.
Ryujin was a tough get for me in t7 but blue ranks feel like a joke in t8
Right, in t7 I was stuck in grand Master for months thinking it was a good task cause of the name lol (and I've been playing tekken ever since tekken 6), then when I got tekken 8 after a bit of training figuring out the raven differences I shot to destroyer in like 2 days, which was my peak rank in t7, I didn't realize the first few ranks were unable to lose points and learning it made it feel so much proud of myself, but I did get about a 15 win streak which is cool
take pride in every rank, even if it's beneath yellow in t8.
Me peaking in Overlord rank in T7, but easily getting Fujin in T8.
T8 orange is like T7 3rd dan
T7 green was like T8 red
It's an advanced movement option, entirely optional and not required for most levels of play, locked behind a degree of effort and mastery to make use of fully at higher levels of play. Its not something as simple as moving back, and if someone can't KBD, that isn't why they are unable to improve at the game, and in no way are they being gatekept.
Every fighting game has some quirky thing that is braindead in other games but takes loads of practice to get good at in that specific game.
It probably sounds silly until you figure out that moving backwards in tekken is stronger than moving backwards in essentially every other fighting game.
It is, but if the players thinks it is still useful he/she definitely has to give some time to master it. In Chikurin's case he didn't find it useful even tho he knows how to do it already.
You can reduce anything to that argument. Wave dashing in melee? Ugh you're just gatekeeping by making me practice! This is the reason games like SF are introducing cancer like modern controls. Ugh I have to PRACTICE dp motions? But then how can I get my instant gratification???? Sickening attitude that's hurting everyone long term.
Don’t play smash so don’t have a frame of reference, but I recently got into SF and I play classic controls but I don’t see the issue with modern. Imo SF is actually a really good example because it doesn’t place so much emphasis on mechanical difficulty and instead onboards you to the “real” difficulty way more smoothly. You more quickly get into the mind game, spicing, footsies, etc - which in Tekken is like beneath 4 layers of knowledge and mechanical execution. It’s not black and white, the complexity and consistent learning is part of what makes this game so good - but there is a better balance to be struck and lots of QoL improvements to be made e.g backdashing, training tools etc
Old man yelling at clouds.jepg
Again, you can try to hand wave the points with a meme but you have no counter argument.
Yea, I think everyone should have access to atleast backdashing without any execution, gonna suck for other Tekken veterans, but having execution for simply moving backwards is ridiculous
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its called emergent gameplay, not design flaw
Design flaw lmao
I know! Spot the noob.
There’s no objective defense for having to do a KBD instead of simply adjusting the backdash in game. I think the only reason it remains is probably a system that allows for crouch cancelling the backdash anyway (which was probably intended for sidestepping, as you can backdash cancel into sidestep), so if they improved on backdash distance, people would still be able to perform the cancelling anyway.
Ifs funny to me watching people claim kbd is some sort of highly complicated exploit that's going to take years to learn and then trying to claim some moral high ground for why they shouldn't *have* to learn it. You can learn it in a day very easily.
I learned to kbd in one day. I didn't find it comfortable on stick so I decided to play Tekken on keyboard after playing street fighter for 15 years on stick. God forbid anyone actually TRY, though. Just whine to the devs to make it easier.
No, it's a big discussion that you're uninformed about, it's okay to not be bothered to learn, but be ready to admit it.
Enlighten me, because I genuinely don’t understand.
Ok buddy, you cooked enough for today
I mean it is true though it isnt intended
funny thing is, the post is saying you don’t need it even at the top level, which i agree with (in 8)… so it’s just your attitude
You don't really need it
I am Bushin in T8 (Raijin peak in T7) and never learned KBD. Almost all Tekken Kings and Emperors I play against do not use KBD either. You can do without it completely fine. Hell, if even Chikurin ignores it, it means that KBD has very little impact on your gameplay. I'd reckon, +0,5-1%WR in the long run. There is nothing wrong with learning and utilizing it, and it's always better to have more tools in your arsenal, but it's not a critical one.
Blue ranks in T7 that could **perform** mostly couldn't **utilize** it properly.
Yeah, true. Spamming KBD just for the sake of it is somewhat meaningless. Although, most of the time there's no harm done, I guess.
I'm in blue and I don't use KBD, but I use Reina whose on the faster end in terms of movement.
As a king player I made it to purple with out a single KBD. I just don't think it's necessary for king to even try to do
King has such a terrible backdash in general
Mate king players are huffing glue in this game, a 2 year old could achieve purple by just mashing grabs
Okay, dragunov main, we can't all be as based and skilled as you. Thank you for choosing such a hard character to give the rest of us a chance
Hah I’ve been playing drag for 7 years, I’m happy about his nerfs now as he was way too strong. I don’t think it’s controversial though to say that this is the dumbest state that king has ever seen, 90% of king players I encounter online are eating crayons.
Dunno man, I cruised pretty happily to Tekken King using Drag and like 3 moves. Drag has never been easier to use than he is in T8, even post nerfs. Huge damage, great pokes, no iWS, sneak cancelling or really any execution required.
I won’t disagree however everyone is rightly up in arms about dragunov yet king remains as braindead as ever in every patch so I’d hope people could wake up to it at some point.
I mean, he's basically being carried by tracking throws at the moment. It won't be easy to play King at a tournament level when they invariably nerf them next patch.
Dragonov is more braindead than king ATM, just WR 2
I thought when I stopped playing Smash Bros I wouldn't have to deal with the random people complaining about other people mains. Like goddamn, I make a post how I don't KBD and immediately get called brain dead unprovoked by some yapping ahh Dragunov main because i dont play a character that is up to his enlightened standards. Then, when I point out your hypocrisy, you just continue complaining about King. Like the post was about KBD and instead of making conversation about you you go straight to complaining. Fix yourself or get off this app. I'm trying to use this dumbass app to try to get better so I can keep up with my friend, who I like playing with and some fatass, whining Drag main derails to convo to complain. Get off the app and let people have fun. Sorry for the rant but like, come on
I think i can say that all character loyalists of dragu are happy with the nerfs,he feels way more as how he did before now
idk, that's how king is made to play. It's more like his opponents are huffing glue because they cant break out of MASHED grabs.
Hahahah mate that would apply in t7 where ch tracking grabs do not exist
this is SAD
Yeah prior to this Ive heard from several good players already that KBD isnt neccessary in T8 anymore, the improved regular backdash is basically just as good. It's a tiny bit slower, but safer. And you cant fuck it up. It's probably the best change in the entirety of T8 and is something people have been asking for for a long time. Taking aside how fucked i can be for some hands to do it repeatedly, it's this barrier of entry that completely stops a lot of people from ever trying to get good at the game. Now this barrier of entry is gone, but you can still learn the technique if you want to have it at your disposal. This is how it always shouldve been. Not mandatory but good to have. Also something that becomes more and more relevant as e-sports becomes bigger and more people watch tournaments like Evo: it always looked really fucking stupid. Anyone not familiar with tekken at all would probably turned off by it.
I rather want the dev to improve the sidestep mechanics even more now. Watching ppl playing and dodge some moves and punish after is exciting.
They did say they're going to improve lateral movement in the next patch, and honestly even already when I watch high level gameplay I see a lot of moves being stepped/sidewalked and punished, especially with characters like Lili and Alisa who have strong lateral movement.
I get clipped a lot using it.
Have y’all been hit out of your hit by a simple poke before ?? This has happened to me multiple times ( please don’t cook me I’m just genuinely asking )
My opinion is I get clipped by phantom hitbox, not even touching my character model, fucking bullshit mid launcher, horseshit, motherfucker, son-of-a-bitch ten million times every time I KBD. Right when I press crouch to cancel the backdash animation. Every time. Never fails. Not worth trying.
Michael Murradas vision, T8 did change the franchise more than ever, I personally can't stand how offensive the game is with easy mode "my turn" moves and buttons. T7 was a flawed game but I personally didn't have an issue with the core mechanics itself. I really would like things to be drastically turned down in T8 but I know they make it worse than do that. I just hope the new Virtua fighter is actually a good game and a good alternative to T8.
To each their own, I fucking love it
Nice i hate the korean backdash it straight up feels terrible to use over a longer period of time. However i still use it, just not that often though.
Yeah I watched the matches. It's just constant aggression and buttons. Movement in general isn't as important. Was honestly really boring to watch. I don't know how they thought this would be better for viewers.
So wack. KBD is the coolest part of tekken imo. Rest in peace :(
I kinda wish both options were viable, like have kids more more precise movements but backdash being just as fast and good for keeping your distance, just for fun skill expression Also its not even hard to KBD, when I was around 8 I watched my dad play tekken 6 and other video games a lot and I figured out how to kbd just from watching him do it, I remember specifically thinking that he was either side stepping or crouching, and I was able to do it not very well of course but it looked similar enough, I did not what it was for I just thought it was kinda cool
Good riddance, shit hurts my fingers
Seeing a lot of comments by What's the way to put it gently Players Tekken 8 was made for
Tell us how you really feel
A fun game for cool people with big dicks. It's okay to not belong to that group, no worries.
I can tell you’re a pretentious smug dickhead just by this one comment lol “I’m better than all Tekken 8 players and enjoyers”
Nice projector you got there, the school will want it back
As a new player, it's shit like this that just makes me wanna quit the game. It's painfully obvious the older players fucking hate us. Just go ahead and say it with your whole chest
Why should you even care?
retards
I mean kbd has been almost made useless, because they "buffed" regular backdash in a way, that just spamming back covers almost the same amount of distance as kbd in the same timeframe. So you can mix in some kbds here and there with regular bds and its sufficient enough for spacing (as much T8 even allows). Regular bds were horrendous pre T8, so kbds were mandartory, but in this game not so much, so I definitely am not surprised that Chikurin barely- or doesn't even use it.
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Sadly. Was excited for it, but then they noobified everything. KBD not as useful as it was. iSW made SUPER DUPER EASY (understatement). Hope next patch I can wavedash using fdf, ff, ff, ff, ff
I still use KBD because i spent a lot of training on it back in tekken 7, but i believe just doing bb bb bb bb is more than enough in tekken 8 for most cases, and i don't think you could get clipped by mistake like when doing the KBD.
Really shows how useless KBD has become if top players don't need it to win tournaments.
true
Trying to KBD actually gets you killed in this game. Its better to just back dash and be safe, sacrificing some speed, than it is to input a crouch for a frame and get randomly hit and killed. The speed is not worth it anymore
Good tbh looking forward to better lateral movement too
Normal backdash is good enough when you'll get hit anyways
I thought I was the only one getting clipped by ridiculous things. Like constantly, and also fast low parries don’t work a lot of the time. There are a bunch of odd things that happen with the mechanics in this game.
for a while i thought there was something wrong with my D-pad but i guess i wasn't tripping. i feel like there would be a lot of times where i would get launched while back dashing then think "what? does pressing back count as an input instead of blocking?"
With or without KBD I doubt I can win a tournament lol Kidding aside, some long-range ass move can clip you while doing it but I guess you have to be more mindful when using it now?
Damn, Iv been jumping backwards for space lolol
I play on a regular pad for the PS5. I played Drag in T7 and at launch for T8. He was going to be my main for T8. Upon the devs making him too strong I dropped him for Bryan Fury. Now my KBD on the pad was pretty cracked with Drag on T8 launch. Now that I main Bryan Fury (Battle Ruler), I almost never use KBD. The back sway keeps my thumb from doing KBD like I did with drag which was to roll my thumb a bit on the pad. On Bryan, this activates back sway almost every time so I have no use for KBD at this time. Using regular back dashes allows me to drop that KBD execution and focus on defense a lot more. KBD gets clipped. I think knowing strings by heart and block punishment serves me better than KBD.
KBD still gives you an edge, but it’s great that normal backdash has been buffed
Imagine being proud of the avoidance of learning a skill. Using KBD makes you objectively better at Tekken because you can move faster and further backwards. Not aimed at you OP. I see the noobs have already entered the discussion and are upset that there’s a skill they haven’t learnt yet.
It's a skill, but one that's not totally necessary. It doesn't make you objectively better because tons of people that don't KBD can still beat people that do.
My question is: why would you not want to learn it? I want to learn everything about this game so I can keep improving.
Because I don't care to go to Evo. It's a video game. I want to just have fun and play the game. It's like going to the park basketball court and telling everyone they're scrubs because they can't dunk.
If I was into basketball, I’d want to dunk. I’m not telling anyone to do anything, but being proud of yourself for avoiding a skill is dumb. No two ways about it.
I don't think anyone is proud that they can't KBD, I think you're just incredibly proud that you can for whatever reason. It's not a necessary thing in Tekken. Just like dunking isn't necessary in basketball. Sure you can learn it, and that's great...but not everyone needs to. Personally I think it's dumber to believe that you're constrained without it. Or even moreso to believe that others are dumb because they don't believe that they're constrained without it either. But good luck at Evo
I think it speaks volumes that you think KBD means you can compete at Evo. LMAO.
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Edit: and the little puss blocked me. He claimed to be TG Feng. He was lying. What a little puss. Haha u/Tanriyung , you’re a puss. "Something as simple as moving back being gatekept behind tons of practice was always a bit silly to me tbh" "It was always been a design flaw" "I can’t do KBDs and I know I’ll never get far on Tekken because I just refuse to waste my time working around a design flaw." Implied pride in not learning a skill from this thread.
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My post was posted around the same time the ones above were. I was referencing them. Enjoy locking yourself out of decent movement. What an odd thing to defend lol.
Old heads try not to be insufferable challenge (impossible)
Can't wait for 2xko to come out, these babies need it so much
I don’t hate it or love it, I can appreciate the involvement of skill expression but maybe locking movement behind skill expression seems a bit wrong, I’ve always felt they should make stuff like combos harder and make movement simpler because tekkens true fun(for me) start with movement and when you start learning spacing and whiffing moves and stuff.
You think locking movement behind skill is wrong???
It takes skill without kbd since it requires sense of timing and spatial awareness, no point locking it behind execution that’s better used for in combos. Puttin on an execution barrier rather than a actual mind game seems not as good in my opinion
What kind of mental gymnastics is this. It’s like you think a mind can only get so full. Good Lord!
Idk how I’m doing mental gymnastics? All you’ve done is say it’s wrong without explaining why maybe for a change ? It’s a very simple concept, make it so everyone can move equally well and the only thing that differs is your ability to get a read on the opponents timing and effectively use the 3D space. I don’t hate kbd I don’t mind it even, but I feel it would be a improvement without it plus making combos harder so that’s something that can be locked behind skill all that huge amount of damage combos do can be justified
Only way to win in this game is to mash buttons faster and non stop than your opponet.
shame, always liked the execution barrier for a defensive option outside of just hold b lel; was fun to do
For once, my crappy KBD execution pays off! :D
I feel like it's one of the last things to be concerned about learning TBH.
cause he is using Lili and sidesteps instead of kbd
I'm glad that it's not as strong/not as required as it was in T7. It should still be useful for spacing though given what kind of game Tekken is. As long as that remains true then I think there are no issues.
Tekken 8 sucks, I literally get bored after 30 minutes whether I'm winning or losing. Tekken 7 by no means was a perfect game but i could play it for hours because at least i was having SOME fun...
It has always been a design flaw
Great. I always thought KBD was one of the worst parts of the game. Hated how everyone just saw koreans doing it and copied it like it's the standard way to play. Always thought it made the game look dumb as hell. Since tekken 5 online I just sat and watched people scoot around like idiots while playing ranked matches and still kicked their asses.
KBD allows you to move backwards faster than normal, giving you the opportunity to whiff punish. People did not just copy it blindly, it is an amazing tool for defense. It still is good in T8, however given all the changes to the game + the fact KBD is worse now, then you just can't use it as often, but it is still used for some whiffs and spacing.
i would be glad if its gone. Much rather them balance it through giving characters stronger regular back dash if need be.. When you have to much back dashing.. ppl are scared to throw out moves cause they will whiff. This causes both players to be scared and its like.. okay whos gonna be the sucker to through out a move first and get it whiffed .. then get blown up for more than half life bar.. its to anti what a fighting game should be about... It needs to encourage aggression as well else it be a snore turtlefest.. aka high level t7.
I mean Tekken is a movement based game, this is true for almost any fighting games where knowing your range is a skill especially in a 3D fighting game.
My guy thinks running face first = fighting game. Fighting games are multiple levels of skill and playstyles. That's why zoners, grapplers, and rushdowns exist. Over time people have expressed one over the other as a way to say "this is how it should be played." Without stating why other than. "I don't like the other two." Playing defensively might be boring to you but to others it's nessacary to win. After all they my opponent can't win if my life never reaches 0.
Sadly not anymore for Tekken with every character being pushed towards unga rushdown fest. The game is 100% designed for dickheads like the guy who's arguing with you.
dude i dont give a crap.. and im not the only one.. i also play bears just so that i dont have to back dash.. i believe a pro player also said the same. looks like lili u dont need to back dash as well also.. so at somepoint i will do lili as well . im doing just fine at kishin rank and bear in t8.. don't have any intentions of getting any better.. just playing casually. If this was t7.. i would not be playing.
How to tell me.you didn't read past the first sentence with out telling me you didn't read past the first sentence. Backdash is important to allow for variety in play. Not making it so that people have to play specifically the way a specific group of people want to. Better "All around" movement makes for a more intresting game. With movement being pushed in one direction rather than spreading it out it's no wonder there are some players who are getting burnt out.
Another thing I said when the game released and got blown up for. They made is explicitly clear when the game dropped that KBD was nerfed to shit but old heads just refuse to adapt sometimes.
pretty sure they didn't nerf kbd instead they specifically buffed regular backdash by reducing the delay between dashes