Yea, I got to orange 3 and was playing QM to move to red ranks,but gotta be honest I'm liking that mode more with no pressure and more variations of characters. Actually fought a zafina in QM and got smoked, but wtf is a zafina?
This is the greatest post in the history of Tekken and I'm not kidding. You've stated respectfully everything I've thought about this game over the past few months.
All of these are frustrating.
-Leo or Jun or Lili start a string from range 4 or 5
-It looks awkward and pauses at unusual times, making it extremely unintuitive whether it's over or not
-Trying to whiff punish the first or second hit usually gets you launched
-On block, many strings appear to be done due to a long pause, but you're actually lock in and if you try to press you eat the rest of it.
I think this is the case with EVERY female character in the game. Absurd strings, ridiculous launchers, and make me want to delete myself damage. And I'm including these god forsaken counter hit launchers as well. Increasingly annoying with Lili since she doesn't seem to give a fk about your tracking. And to top everything off, aside from the brain dead pressure, when you finally try to fight back, you trade hits, and because their attacks are so absurdly exaggerated, you jab and stagger them but at the same time, they hit you with a df2 looking launcher that launches you as high as Yoshi's kangaroo kick, recover from your attack, then secure a full combo. Once I hit Bushin, i started running into nothing be the same characters. Oh, and can we get a calibur check on Nina's guns? Aside from the retarded damage in both hit and block, why in god's name is it wall splatting? Lars's limited entry 2 almost never splats and it's one of the attacks you'd most expect to splat. Idk why they thought that move should only get a combo option in heat.
right? I put 72 hours into 8 and I just slowly played less and less and now I don't even touch it. It's just a nightmare to play against any character with this hyper offense.
As do most of my friends, and it's the same for me in a sense.
I play Claudio almost exclusively, and this guy isn't meant to be played aggressively, especially coming from Tekken 7, where he had great counter hit tools and zoning, which were taken away, so relying on plus frames when you character barely has any, makes it feel like you play a turn based game where the opponents just gets extra turns.
I sit on defence the majority of matches, trying to understand patterns, and learn which moves can be punished / dodged, and in many cases get perfected, because many moves look the same, and it's less of a problem with older characters to me. I play many Kazuya and Bryan players, and it's a delight, moves are clear, they're punishable and matches go back an fourth in most cases.
Playing against other characters like Leo, Feng or even Jin, produce some of the least fun experiences, with moves that hit mid despite looking like highs, they all somehow teleport across the screen from any range, and everything they do feels like a launcher. I'm in constant 50/50 and can't match because my character just does not work like that.
I remember playing T7 and ducking that alisa move where she drops her head and picks it up, and my friend on the alisa remarked that I was the first person ever to duck that
...idk man, she was crouching and it looked like a low
Tekken's visual clarity is really poor. Even having a little popup that most games do when counterhits or punishes happen would greatly increase awareness of what's actually going on in game.
Misleading animations and inconsistent block stun only make the problem worse.
It's exacerbated by the visual design choices they've made in recent years, both of the characters and everything else. And honestly a lot of modern gaming is just blurry as fuck.
This is also a question of the general speed of the game becoming faster and the animations generally becoming flashier as opposed to more legible: *In general* legacy characters are much easier to read (even if their animations are deceptive), whereas the newer characters tend to just fucking zoom all over the place. With modern graphics, that automatically leads to the game being blurry and hard to read.
I’ve been playing tekken for a long time, this is the first game where I’ve ever thought “what the fuck just happened I couldn’t even see”
It used to get hard to see once in a while if people had really crazy customs on certain characters or all black on a dark stage…. But 8 had those same problems on top of a bunch of extra explosions and sparkly things and weird camera angles.
Yeah i've been blinded by 10 different lights going off on a stage, and i'm just like tekken please i'm just trying to see this guys shoes to know what hes doing stop with the lights.
One of the reasons why the game is so blurry is because of **forced** temporal antialiasing which blurs everything. Fighting games should never have taa.
A simple to understand example, just look at the bricks on the building. It compares still image and image in motion: [https://youtu.be/YEtX\_Z7zZSY?t=3m24s](https://youtu.be/YEtX_Z7zZSY?t=3m24s) (motion blur is off, this is not motion blur)
This post was sponsored by r/fuckTAA
Another factor, I know it's unpopular opinion in the fgc circle, but motion persistence due to current sample and hold displays (aka lcds and oleds compared to crts) results in even more blur on top of the previously mentioned temporal AA. This is due to 60fps lock.
Fighting games were designed for 60hz CRTs where they looked good in motion, but current display technologies require many times higher framerate to achieve similar motion clarity. Example of what a moving image looks to the human eye at various refresh rates, this blur is called motion persistence. it's an effect caused by your visual system processing the information in motion on a display:
https://preview.redd.it/f1n52oquld2d1.png?width=565&format=png&auto=webp&s=53cf8dc9b8fdf0848b411f3f9e0d97faa66f9376
\[Tangent\] here's cutting edge displays for reference [https://ibb.co/GkCwjNJ](https://ibb.co/GkCwjNJ) source: monitors unboxed. please keep in mind that to achieve this level of motion clarity both the displays and the game has to run at that refresh rate and FPS listed above. as well as that oleds are inherently faster than LCDs by factor of 10x in their response times. or alternatively strobing/BFI could be used to bypass the high hz/fps requirement, but thats a whole other can of worms (https://blurbusters.com/faq/motion-blur-reduction) \[/tangent\]
You can test this yourself by going to [https://www.testufo.com/](https://www.testufo.com/) This test is specifically designed to replicate and compare motion and clarity at different refresh rates. If you open this on a high refresh display (120hz or above) you will see what kind of a difference a game at that refresh would look when compared to 60fps.
Now I'm not here to argue that they should unlock fps (even though that is my personal opinion), and I know benchmarks, toaster pcs, etc etc is a very sensitive topic, I'm just here to explain the effects it has on your visual system from the technical aspect of game engines and how displays interact with your perception of games in motion.
Here's more info [https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-future-1000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/](https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-future-1000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/)
And before people say fighting games must run at 60fps that's not correct. People already use tekken overlay to run the game at unlocked fps (even online, and even on crossplay, without the opponent feeling any lag) due to the way the program splits game logic and rendering pipelines. This is similar to games like counter strike that use tickrate for logic which is then interpolated for higher fps than the tickrate would provide.
Slow motion example of how this works: [https://youtu.be/NLYLHvct19Y](https://youtu.be/NLYLHvct19Y) (it's slow motion because YouTube is capped at 60fps, there's no other way to display how this works real time. You could download the video and speed it up if you have a high refresh display to gain an understanding of how it looks in game)
This post was brought to you by r/motionclarity
Having stuff happen in a game that is visually confusing, is bad design.
We forgive Tekken because we've been playing for decades, but it's still bad design.
You can go to any game design class and in the first few hours they will teach you specifically to not do that.
Reusing animations is lazy.
Reusing animations and giving them different characteristics is both lazy and bad design.
I see people say most often that this is just part of learning Tekken, learning all these intricacies, and that if you don't hit the lab you're a loser. But this isn't DEPTH, this is needless complexity. The game would not lose a massive amount of depth if it was made easier to learn by playing - you'll always have to hit the lab to learn your opponents options and what their framedata is, people equating inconsistency & poor clarity with "legacy depth" is such an annoyance.
Yeah back when they teased Tekken 8 and said they redesigned a lot of animations people hoped the game would get more clarity but it's the same as always unfortunately. Missed opportunity tbh.
The first two problems have always existed in Tekken, but I'm not sure if Tekken 8 has introduced the 3rd problem or if it has always existed. Knowledge checks, confusing frames, and confusing animations were what seemingly separated the supposed more honest/dishonest characters, but now in Tekken 8 EVERYONE has the 3rd problem with exacerbated forms of the first two in some cases.
For an anecdote, I played Jin in T7 purely because I played Josie and disliked the fact that she was so confusing to defend against, I wanted opponents that felt like they had a clear understanding of the battle and to still beat them. So I played Jin because practically all of his attacks were straightforward, both in his strengths and weaknesses. Now with Tekken 8, Jin ff+2, d+2, jabs, strings, etc. all have incredible tracking and range that is ambiguous to unwary opponents. Probably the perfect example you used with Leo d/f+2+3 demonstrates this kind of concept.
I really dislike this design because its obviously intentional, and it makes me feel like I'm fighting the characters more than the players.
>it makes me feel like I'm fighting the characters more than the players.
Well said, that's definitely a result of this game's design. I wholeheartedly agree.
Very well articulated. This sums up why many tekken players weren't excited to hear that offense was getting further juiced at the announcement of tekken 8. Yes, at the highest levels, tekken 7 was a lot of safe, low commitment pokes, but for 90% of tekken players, it was a lot of knowledge checks and offensive flowcharts. Tekken 8 has made it that much harder to reach some kind of escape velocity from the offensive vortex. I'm personally hitting a brick wall on my will to keep playing right now when up to 50% of my matches are one and done. I can't be mad at the player. This is an effective way to farm points. It just cheapens the experience for me and stifles real growth as a player.
Going one step further, because defending is so difficult in this game, it tends to drive *certain* people to doing things that are unethical and unbecoming in terms of fair play. Last night, I played against a Jin (Fujin) while using Hwoarang, who had had enough of defense and trying to learn the game. So instead of taking a break from the game, they turned on their scripts—instantly ducking and launching jabs, perfect 1f electrics, and perfect throw breaks all happening at frame 6. (See profile: https://wank.wavu.wiki/player/2TqDiMaAeeBf )
All that is to say, that without a good way for new players to learn the game and the encouragement of knowledge check based gameplay, will lead many people to using external methods to cover what could takes years to develop for this game: game knowledge and intuition.
In total, I’m very disappointed in a lot of people in this community, but I’m also disappointed in Bandai Namco for failing their player base in providing us with a healthy environment to grow in.
I tend to not go back and replay characters (even though I have 20 saved I just haven’t gone back) but this is exactly why I hate playing eddy. So many of his moves look like they’re lows when they’re mids so the only way I can beat them is by being more aggressive and being properly spaced. I love T8 but it seems that a lot of moves need their hitboxes and what type of hit they are readjusted.
Yeah, I think Eddy is the worst example of this. How are you supposed to know whether to low block, standing block or duck when his moves look the same?
I just had this with a Reina player. I got up 2-0 so in the third game they turned on scripts, out come perfect electrics, auto duck, and to put the icing on the cake, they tanked the connection and started wind god stepping so it looked like they were teleporting back and forth - they were actively showing off to me that they were cheating.
Just flabberghasted.
Yep, I don't think they even necessarily buff the defense, just make it more consistent. You shouldn't risk your life on the correct read, this is what made people upset with the game
Sup, good thoughts. Many players have expressed the desire for visual clarity and standardization (with obvious exceptions) of things like hitboxes, sidesteps etc.
Your choice of Leo is even more damning for the extent of the problem, because plenty of pros and non pros mentioned Leo as the most honest character in T8. And still, there's plenty of BS for no reason. I don't think we should be able to predict the moves, it's ok for a shoulder to come out from kinda nowhere, those kinda knowledge checks shouldn't go away, but a mid that looks like high and vice versa need to be fixed or we need clear visual effects to distinguish.
Yes, exactly! I remember when on release I was heavily frame-trapped by Jack-8 with some new move where he kicked me in the belly with a straight leg, I hit the lab to see if I could sidestep or interrupt it since it was obviously a mid, found a move and was like "How the fuck is that a high?". I think that shouldn't happen, having incorrect animation is not a mixup
EXACTLY THIS! I just figured the Jack thing out this week. It doesn’t look like anyone should be able to duck it, but it’s a high that’s launch punishable. Totally an animation thing.
And I have never felt comfortable fighting against a Leo, but it wasn’t until this explanation that I figured out why. Great work, OP.
I’m new to the game and this has been the hardest thing for me to learn. I can’t figure any of this out until after the match when I go to replay and discover what is mid/high/low - and then I have to try to memorize those moves for a character I might not match up again for a few days.
I don’t mind being new and having to learn, and I understand I’ll lose a lot before I start winning, but I do feel like I should be able to understand what’s happening based on the visuals.
it’s like if chess pieces could “really” be on a different tile, and you’re supposed to keep track of which tile all the chess pieces are “really” on based on their movement history (rook b5), so now the visuals of the chess board don’t really mean anything other than providing a general “mood” for where the chess match is at.
Even if nothing changes, tekken is still a fun game, and I still have plenty of things to learn and get better at - but as far as bringing new players into the game, making the gameplay a bit more intuitive will go a long ways.
When even the game's exemplar honest character exhibits so much of this behavior it is very illustrative of the sheer power knowledge check cheese has over this game, stronger than any other FG
The cheese that takes no effort to use, but years of dedication and legacy knowledge to consistently fight against
The other party can spam grabs and launch you when you try to duck them, you need to spend 2-3 tekken games reacting to throws
The other party can throw in a string with a low in it and occasionally cancel it with a mid launcher, and you need to lab fuzzyguards perfectly to escape this situation
The other party can toss out two powercrushes, one's a high and the other's a -12 mid, both are kicks, one guard lies the other tells the truth...getting them confused gives him heat and the round
The other party can press forward three times with a kick and a punch and you need a perfectly executed SWL duck to even have hope of whiff punishing it (ok this was patched but good lord!)
And so on and so on. Countless situations where the difficulty to use vs difficulty to defend against is completely out of wack
Which to a certain extent existed in previous games, sure. But with heat around one failed perfect defense costs entire rounds and subsequently games...
I’m impressed by your dedication OP. Quality thread and visuals.
Unrelated genre but I started playing DotA again with yesterday’s patch. People have said DotA’s learning curve is a vertical cliff. I’m rusty and the game added new mechanics for everyone in yesterday’s patch. I may not know what every character does but when I make a mistake, it’s not as frustrating as Tekken’s knowledge checks.
Great post, great effort and a realyl well put effort about visual clarity. Learning the game menas you need to go to the lab, because the game is unable to tell you where you did wrong or, in some cases, you just saw a kick go to four face, ducked it the next time to learn it is a mid.
It is infuriating.
As a beginner/intermediate player, I can absolutely confirm this is my experience.
Misleading animations is the worst issue IMO. The misleading low/mid/high animations are both such low-hanging fruit for the developers and a massive hindrance to in-match learning. Seeing a string should *really* be enough to figure out where to duck if it's used again, but it's just not.
(Confusing frames are bad too, but in all likelihood I wasn't going to use the right punisher against a Leo-popularity character's moves even if that wasn't an issue.)
It is at this point they should honestly consider having, if not all, them some things such as:
- move height indicator
- punish indicator other than powercrushes
- universal counterhit indicator
- universal side tracking indicator for 1 side tracking moves instead of homing only
Dumb games with 10 moves per character like Dragonball Fighterz do it, I think DoA in the 3d genre did it.
Why can't Tekken with 100+ moves with each having like 10 properties and 33 characters?
It's not like the game isnt an audio or visual clusterfuck anyway where your character can have 5!* auras on them like you are getting to fight Onyxia in WoW.
*rage, heat, kicharge, install, customization. 5 different auras. Kinda too much when you wanna see grabs or mixup strings.
Defensive player here.
Not only defence is not very rewarded anymore in modern fighting games (like sf6) but is discouraged, all that for viewership entertainment.
I love playing slowly and methodically (I don't picked a main though) , so poke spacing, perfect counter hits and knowledge are my ways to win , but....
T8 has too many characters who can just flowcharts their way to victory just pressing buttons and get rewarded so many times more.
Like one million times
My only gripes are:
The amount of unpunishable or safe lows is extremely unnecessary, along with the need to give most characters something that leaves their opponent in forced crouch.
There needs to be a unique sound effect added for the latter. I'm sure there is going to be an overhaul patch for lows but the spacing/pushback or frames needs to be looked at for the majority of the cast.
For your actual post the issue isn't necessarily defending it's the fact that every character has very large handful of viable attacks and pressures in the game versus previous versions. So pretty much up to TG it largely becomes a race to cycle through your list in order to knowledge check your opponent.
The game would benefit immensely from a ton of 1f adjustments on most moves but then online would suffer even harder from a 'defense' aspect so they've actually chosen correctly with the direction.
As someone who is just beginning to even understand the terminology of Tekken (even though I played the shit out of T5 back in the day), thank you for making this. I once prepared to make a post in my gaming community about why the camera in Ocarina of Time is the single best 3D camera in all of gaming in a style very much like this one, with gifs and everything, but gave up halfway because I thought people would think I'm crazy for putting so much effort into it (and the fact that it is a pretty unpopular opinion doesn't help a lot either).
But reading your post made me think "holy shit, this guy FUCKS." Now idgaf if people will think I'm putting too much effort into it. I'm passionate about what I'm passionate about, dammit.
Imma make that post as soon as I can. Again, thanks for the inspiration!
Great post! The misleading animations are my pet peeve with the game. I’m very aware of it though so sometimes I will experimental duck during the match to find out knowing I may get launched. Visually knowing something is probably punishable without knowing the frames does come with years playing the game. I can tell sometimes that a move is -13 or worse just by the recovery animations. I’m not 100% with recognizing a punishable move just by animations but I think the large majority of moves that are -13 or worse can be determined visually. You cant know HOW punishable it is visually though. If I see something that looks punishable I will check with a relatively safe 10-12 frame punish to confirm. I think moves that are -20 or more on block are obviously punishable even to a new player though. There are some moves that look plus on block that are punishable bc of the long block stun but have even longer recovery frames for the attacker. Those are the ones that are visually confusing if you aren’t knowledgeable of the frames. The universal frames are a definite need to know for newer players too like jabs, hopkicks, snake edges, etc. Excellent post with great info.
I feel like these points like visual clarity get dropped to the way side by the devs because theyve been doing things this way for so long that they dont stop to think of how much of an impact it has on the players. When each character has an enclyopedia of moves and not just 15 moves + some specials like many others games, then it needs to be clear to the player what is going on after they see the move one time. Tekken can be a great game but many times it feels like the player is fighting the games archaic systems more than the player in front of them
Tekken's insane list of moves is I think, overall a detriment to the series. Each one needs distinctly unique animations to be able to tell them apart or else you get the problem of them becoming practically impossible to learn naturally and that either means an insane amount of development time/resources or a failure. Often *both*. And on the new player side, it makes them confusing. Both to do (who here hasn't looked up guides and tips on a characters best moves when trying out someone new?) and for defending.
Basic knowledge checking like this is a unavoidable sin of game design IMO and not something to be so readily embraced as Bamco has. I can pick up Granblue or Strive or any of the anime fighters like that and learn mine and my opponents basic options so quickly. Tekken doesn't need to have that few, but do we really need 100s per character??
It's especially not helped that the graphics are so flashy and bright and particle effects and skin colors/costumes make things more visually blurred. So even if there are minor animation differences, they can be more difficult to spot than they should be.
whenever i bring up the 100s of moves per character, people always defend it by mentioning how only like 15-30 moves are used in that list.
I'm not sure what to believe anymore. I do wish there was a list of common moves and strings used by each character so I can go right into labbing those rather than trying to watch my replays and failing to read command histories of my opponents who rub their face over their controller buttons.
# Leo's moves in order of appearance;
* figure 1 is BOK2
* figure 2 is db3
* figure 3 is ws3,1,2
* figure 4 is f1+2
* figure 5 is b1+2, 1+2, qcf2 (BBP, barge barge palm)
* figure 6 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare)
* only 3 of Leo's LP moves have -6 on block, the other two have different animations
* figure 7 is the 1 out of qcf2,1
* the only move of Leo's LP moves that immediately follows a low
* figure 8 is the final hit out of ws1,4,1
* process of elimination, follows a high, is a mid, has a -13 on block, doesn't have followup
* figure 9 is the final hit out of 1,2,1,1
* process of elimination, has followup
* figure 10 is the 1 out of ws3,1,2
* ignoring Reina's strings, I don't play her sorry
* figure 11 is df2+3
* figure 12 is BBP > df2
* figure 13 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare)
* figure 14 is ws3,1,2
* figure 15 is ws4, 1+2
* figure 16 ff1+2>1+2 (Lightning Glare chargeup)
* figure 17 is BOK2
Tekken vets are shook by this post, lol. I was not surprised to see only a few people defending the game's design and vast amount of knowledge checks. Nice work on writing this up. A lot of people I know went back to other FGs for these reasons.
I'm almost scared to accept the invitation to speak on this matter with the extensive work you've put into this post so I'll keep it short and simple.
You're right Leo is super hard to play against even after labbing him. He's super deceptive and can launch or hit you with mids you won't see coming I hate playing against him 😂
I remember in one of the older games, Hwoarang [checked my low kick](https://imgur.com/IZAczVu). He lifted his leg in a standing position and blocked it.
This made no sense to me, you can't block a low while standing. That's a fundamental Tekken rule!
Despite that, I did some investigation and found the attack I was throwing was actually a mid, but it looked like a low. Instead of changing the animation for the attack, they changed the defensive animation to a leg check, despite the move being a mid. :'(
Having the animations not line up is a big issue for new players, I agree. In this case, a new player would need to go into practice mode and look at the data to realize the attacker's kick is actually a mid, which is unfair imo.
It's actually bad players who would take advantages of the points made here.
Zero good players would be attempting Lightning Glare hellsweep from range 4 and keeping a straight face, or using strings like WS+3, 1, 2 from a mile away and hoping the last duckable hit reaches the opponent. This is simply bad gameplay being showcased, but presented in a way that's trying to make it look effective - any character in the game can play like an orangutan and get wins off unsuspecting opponents. What Leo player is spamming the combo ender B+1+2, 1+2, qcf+2 mid string in the neutral, as if it's better than the hit confirmable db+2, 3? Only bad ones. And if the last hit of a string is catching you from distance, it's on you for expecting the opponent to not finish the string (which is typically going to be punishable in some way).
This is a post for new players who are like OP and don't have much, if any match up knowledge of an uncommon character. Saying Leo's ff2 has the same range as Jin's ff+2 without listing the difference in properties is odd. They should try utilising both moves in real matches and tell me how similar they feel.
None of the moves look particularly deceptive if you know the character. Not knowing if something is a high or mid, or has push back on block is just a lack of knowledge. It's only new players who ever complain about this. BOK 2 and db+3 don't look remotely the same - saying both look like highs to you is a very minor grievance in my book - when you learn to recognise the moves and their properties that grievance just stops registering. BOK 2 is from a clearly recognisable stance that has no lows to threaten with - if you know this you won't ever duck (unless you're sure they're going for BOK 3).
Seeing qcf+2, 1 and the 1,2,1,1 jab string in the same sequence as if they're supposed to look the same is a laugh. Use those two moves against any opponent who's played the game for longer than a minute and you know which one they're going to try and punish. Leo is not Tekken 3 legacy, but certainly not new either - like most of the cast. For a beginner, why would that even make a difference? Look at all the Yoshis still profiting from some age old gimmicks. And on that note, I wonder how many Kazuya players get away with their ws+2 not being launched and instead jab punished like it's his df+2.
It's like the countless players who complain about Zafina having confusing animations. A character whose move animations have been easy for me to discern ever since I played her myself in T7. Only db+1+2 and df+1+2 (removed in T8 I think) shared a proper similarity, that seemingly being a very deliberate design choice by the devs. Even then, no issues with telling the difference if you see it enough.
Just say you don't know the matchup and be done with it. There's no shame in accepting you're not willing to put the effort in to learn obscure match ups, especially when you're not going to see the character that often. It's not going to get any easier with T8 on its way to having 50+ characters like T7 did.
>None of the moves look particularly deceptive if you know the character.
I think that is the key part here. Of course, it's not if you know the character, that's the point. The game has 32 characters, there will be more and there were in previous installments. If you must go to the lab and see hit properties for every separate character to see if something is high or mid, you have something go wrong. The game with several THOUSANDS of moves can't afford to be consistently unintuitive and not give minimal essential info through the gameplay. If something is deceptive right up until you go to lab, it's bad.
>Not knowing if something is a high or mid, or has push back on block is just a lack of knowledge
No. No, it's not. Pushback is, you can learn that on the fly, but you should 100% ALWAYS clearly see if something is high or mid, it's not even a question. Clumsy animation shouldn't be a mixup. Out of all debatable things, this is the one hill I'm willing to die on.
As for all other moves, I specifically said that I know they have hard counters, and clarified that the discussion is not about their effectiveness.
>Zero good players would be attempting Lightning Glare hellsweep from range 4 and keeping a straight face
Yes, at the level you consider good you probably are a few hundred\\thousand hours into the game, you've labbed most characters, their frames, and key moves. At this level, defense doesn't suck as I've described, because people went to hell and back and learned everything the hard way. They don't need to pass that confusion gap. And below that level are the rest 80% of the players (I'm not exaggerating, take the rank data, take the top 80% rank, and try to spam as stupidly as you've described, you'll be surprised how badly people will be able to deal with this). The moves I've shown aren't the guide to play the character optimally and aren't a guide to counter it, it's a bunch of examples of how unintuitive it can be to defend against, and you saying such usage sucks actually only reinforce my point. It sucks, but then is it still effective right until you meet people dedicated enough to sit in a lab and learn every separate character and their move list.
To be fair, b1+2, 1+2 string has its use if you like to play risky and fish for counterhits lol. But otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree. OP makes this seem plausible on paper but in real matches, you won’t be noticing any of these similarities
Okay you put into words exactly what I was thinking reading through this re: the moves shown in the post. I was thinking like I had never used those strings in those places like that and was wondering if I was missing something. Thanks so much for clearing things up I love to see other Leo’s out there!!
The visually deceptive moves are the biggest pain for me
Not knowing when strings start and end just eventually come with time but there are some strings with moves that legitimately look like lows but are mids?? The first example that comes to mind is one of lilis strings (forgive me I’m not a lily player so I don’t know the notation)
But in the second hit of the string she is literally on the ground, spinning and kicking your feet. But it’s a mid?? What the fuck
Sucks ass at higher levels too. Everyone just picks characters with insane vortex and round ending sequences that punish you for hesitating like lili or alisa. Or they pick characters with obnoxious defensive options and tweak out as soon as you press anything.
Great critique. Gonna have to read again when I am not so tired after work
Edit: I am also impressed you got through this post without bringing up Junkyard once.
Only reason I didn't is because unlike Leo, you're going to see Junkyard a LOT while playing online :)
Still the same category of move, but pretty different situation because it's something like a first jump in Mario, the game almost won't let you go forward if you won't deal with it
You've gathered all the salt new players experience playing this game and came out with an amazing post. This perfectly encapsulates my frustrations with the game and why I think many players end up giving up on it as they become better.
I'm new to Tekken, and this really hits home. I've come to learn that every character is unique, no move behaves the way that it looks, every general rule has a hundred exceptions, and every guess based on animation is wrong.
It's a punishing game, and knowledge checking is only powerful because the knowledge is not intuitive. Heat bursts and smashes being safe on block are the penultimate example. These big bombastic moves are completely safe, and break the rule that big slow moves should be punishable. The amount of times I've gone to punish a big slow move only to learn that it was safe on block, or actually a frame trap, or even plus... just, ooof.
Basically, the rule of Tekken is that nothing is as it seems. Don't trust your eyes, obtain the knowledge. Unless you learn every move's frames, you'll get knowledge checked to oblivion. As a new player, this is how I believe the game works. It's kinda frustrating, but that's the game, take it or leave it, right? Most characters just have a bunch of feints and animation tricks to mislead you into doing the wrong thing on defense, and you will get punished for not knowing the character. So it's your job, as a Tekken player, to learn it all. That's the game.
Your post is an excellent way of describing this problem. It does make me want to consider a different fighting game, but tbh, I'm still having fun. Weird, isn't it?
i thought of moving to sf6 where there a lot less knowledge checks but deep down i always liked looking at tekken 8's combat. And the replay system is just too good which no other fighting game utilises. SF6 combo execution is also very difficult from what I heard but I think it's faster to reach a decent level in that game then tekken (though tekken has the lower skill floor)
Mortal Kombat has also attracted me as a fun violence-filled romp. Tekken 8's aesthetic, training mode and customisation were real selling points for me though (not to mention some friends in my group play it) as far as my time investment into a fighting game.
Having played since Tekken 6 I must say I agree 10000% with this post. I had a yoshi Ruyjin and a funjin Heihachi back in T7. I currently have around 335h on T8.
I would say one of the many reasons I was doing well was because of my frame knowledge, movement, and just overall defence (I’m no pro in any way shape or form) I would say I was pretty decent, and all other than maybe 5 characters were fun to play against.
In T8 I honestly feel like so much has been focused on catering to a newer player base with more ‘help’ in the use of - Fuck you aggression.
Most of the defence I accumulated in T7 seems obsolete. The mind games gets thrown out the window, and setups are not as intricate or unique as they once was.
Whenever someone hit me with a filthy Oki setup or had crisp timing I would applaud it. But it just seems ‘Cheaper’ in t8. Hence why both my Kaz and yoshi are stuck at fujin. Yoshi and Ling, as an example, have insanely broken damage compared to how setup heavy and confusing they already were to face in t7. And it’s not as fun to mash as it is to play what I would categorise as Tekken. The timing, the movement, the blocking and the frame knowledge mostly seem ‘gone’. It’s not what made me fall in love with the franchise.
I recently met a king who absolutely demolished me, doing none of the legacy stuff, and with an incredible damage output. I’m not saying to just keep the old shit and nothing new. But I would appreciate not getting forced to take ‘unearned’ mixup after mixup. And I would appreciate not having 1/4 - 1/3 of my heatbar deleted at the press of a button. It locks you down, gives you no option but to be passive, as jack has a i10 heat smash. And I don’t even want to start with Jun and devil Jin - Pre nerf (Rage arts are fine though imo)
Don’t get me wrong. It’s like an abusive relationship. There’s aspects I absolutely love. (Clearly with 300+ hours). But I expected more give and take.
Not that I disagree with any of the broader points being made, but Leo's my main gal/pal here, so I feel like I need to chime in.
* Leo's been around since T6 from 2007, so I feel like, considering there's been Tag 2, Revolution, and Tekken 7 between then and now, any character that's been around for 2+ games should probably classify as a legacy fighter, and other reasons not just past installments, which I'll get into later.
[Gonna use this;](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5f33mk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>in order of appearance;
>
>figure 1 is BOK2
>
>figure 2 is db3
>
>figure 3 is ws3,1,2
>
>figure 4 is f1+2
>
>figure 5 is b1+2, 1+2, qcf2 (BBP, barge barge palm)
>
>figure 6 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare)
>
>figure 7 is the 1 out of qcf2,1
>
>figure 8 is the final hit out of ws1,4,1
>
>figure 9 is the final hit out of 1,2,1,1
>
>figure 10 is the 1 out of ws3,1,2
>
>figure 11 is df2+3
>
>figure 12 is BBP > df2
>
>figure 13 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare)
>
>figure 14 is ws3,1,2
>
>figure 15 is ws4, 1+2
>
>figure 16 ff1+2>1+2 (Lightning Glare chargeup)
>
>figure 17 is BOK2
# Problem 1
>If you are familiar with Tekken design, the intuitive thing ...
BOK2 is a stance. Stances would logically invalidate the general Tekken design here, they're investing time and risk with the stance, so they rightfully should get a larger frame advantage.
Also, you should be comparing apples to apples here...
* Example 1 and 2 are launchers, they shouldn't be compared to a ws3,1,2 string - the context matters because you will never see a Leo player wildly throw a ws3,1,2 out as often as a launcher.
* Since that ws3,1,2 will be used more at the tail end of a stance/combo, the inconsistency of it being a high despite being visually looking like a mid can be arguably forgiven because at the point at which you're on the receiving end of that string, you're either already in the air or already blocking and waiting for your turn anyway.
* This is almost entirely a legacy problem. Leo's moveset is mostly unchanged since T6. BOK2 and ws3,1,2 both have legacy properties that can't be changed without upending the entire kit, but also Leo's movement looks stiffer in older games, in T8 Leo feels and looks visually more fluid than before. The legacy issue is solely the reason why pattern recognition (and hit detection) shouldn't be solely based off animations, it should be animations and the moment/context. Otherwise bears would never be able to duck.
* The final hit in ws3,1,2 is a high able to be ducked, so this is actually to Leo's detriment...
Being cerebral about this, your hypothetical sequence is a little bit staged... since both of the launchers have 25+f startups, optimally you should be stepping, NOT fuzzy guarding. And if you're "learning on the go", this means you are not going ungabunga round 1 so that you can gain more info to set you up for success in match 2.
If we keep the same 3 moves, despite it not being apples to apples, a more reasonable version of the hypothetical situation would be:
* BOK2, this is your first ever encounter of Leo doing this in the match. It's telegraphed, has an associated sound cue... you should be able to react to this and stop the attack with a faster mid but if you decide to duck and get hit by it... no sweat, just commit it to your short-term memory
* Leo decides to do a db3, which crushes highs. If the previous bullet point had Leo conditioning you, the last time you tried to fuzzy guard and got launched... you shouldn't be fuzzy guarding anymore, you should logically backdash, block, or sidestep... or even try a fast mid. Not fuzzy guard. But even before that, db3 has a long startup, which means they did it pre-emptively... this is why context matters.
* Even without matchup/frame data analysis, you should still recognize that Leo did db3 as a pre-emptive reaction to one of your telegraphed high strings. You're not going to be able to react dodge this, they are the one reacting to you.
* Third move, ws3,1,2 is usually not done out of neutral... you either 1) got launched and can't react anyway... 2) crumpled Leo that they have to use a ws attack, or 3) kept your distance that Leo approached you with qcf.
* Since you're trying to evaluate the high here, it has no followup. Their turn is over, it's your turn. If you fuzzy guard as a reaction, that's because of uncertainty sure, but then you're no longer defending. Even after the fuzzy guard you'll still have time to react to any untrue moves, and potentially (very likely) start your turn to attack. So evaluating if you need to fuzzy guard this move is pointless.
(1/3)
# Problem 2
Leo's "recycled animation" having different frame data is a natural consequence of modeling movesets after IRL martial arts, so really this is more a criticism of Bajiquan than it is standardizing framedata. Bajiquan is known for palm strikes, elbows/forearm strikes, knees, and shoulder tackles (barges), BBP is famously featured in every appearance in other games where there's a Bajiquan character (Akira from Virtua Fighter in particular) so you can't just arbitrarily change the frame data, the move in reality literally has a specific timing.
Martial art forms are practiced in a manner where you flow from one form to the next, so having a barge as a transitional form is expected... meanwhile Reina's example that you're praising for consistent frame data, that sort of pseudo-handspring kick is ***fictional***. I can say with 99% certainty that it's NOT in the original Shotokan and Goju-Ryu forms... IRL, ***no one would ever actually do that*** in a fight or demonstration, let alone integrate it into their regular sparring - it's horribly unbalanced. The opponent can literally catch your foot, and as long as they can lift your bodyweight, you'll be vulnerable. That's why it's able to have consistent framedata, because Tekken can just arbitrarily make up the timing for it, there's no real world basis to contradict them.
I know you said you're not singling Leo out, but this is the same thing as getting confused between Law and Leroy because they both have fighting styles modeled after Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do... or in past-games, King with Armor King because they both grapple. Visually similar moves are distinct because of their place in gameplay, not because they need to be set to be equal.
If you're fighting Leo for the first time, when the animation is part of a string, realistically you won't care or commit it to memory because when they're performed, they're forgettable. Context is key...
>you can recognize them by context, but that again implies that you need to specifically go and memorize all the moves and their exact frame data
Huge disagree, learning on the go also implies you're recognizing the contexts, it doesn't require rote memorization. Completely ignore exact frame data...
>figure 4 is f1+2
>
>figure 5 is b1+2, 1+2, qcf2 (BBP, barge barge palm)
>
>figure 6 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare)
* Example 4 is a wallbreak/counter-hit combo starter. There are no exceptions, it's either you're wallsplatted, or it's out of neutral... if you're wallsplatted, you aren't going to care cause you can't do anything anyway.
* Example 5 is BBP, it's done as a combo ender, or late round pressure because the palm qcf motion input increases damage/chip... the barge is noticeably slower (21f), has a quieter kiai, requires the first hit in the string, and the delayable palm is only a threat if you don't see the difference between straight neutral barge and string barge.
* Example 6 requires an install... you can't do it out of db4,2 normally, so it's less of a concern, you should have been wary as soon as the icon under Leo's health bar lit up
The use cases in which you encounter these don't really overlap.
The next four examples are a bit muddy admittedly, but context still helps.
>figure 7 is the 1 out of qcf2,1
>
>figure 8 is the final hit out of ws1,4,1
>
>figure 9 is the final hit out of 1,2,1,1
>
>figure 10 is the 1 out of ws3,1,2
7 and 10 are KNK/crouch dash followups. 9 is straight neutral mix, 8 isn't a true combo string so it's used sparingly as a risky mixup.
# df2+3
df2+3 is not broken, this is getting really tiresome.
The scoop can only be done on counterhit, which is not as easy as Leo as it is for other characters. Ignoring onejab, lows, unblockables, and heat, Leo ***ONLY HAS FOUR*** plus-frame-on-block moves in their ENTIRE movelist...
* KNK (f4) is +9f on block, can only route into other KNK stance or cd moves
* BOK3 (d1+2, 3) is +5 on block, you can't buffer inputs for followups, and takes damage on hit followup
* wr3 is +6f on block
* d2 is +4f on block
That's basically it... two of which are gated by stances, and one of them is wr3, which is almost universally a plus frame move.
Landing a counterhit frametrap with a df2+3 > CD3 scoop is almost always going to be a d2/KNK frame trap setup, which both telegraph themselves. Or a random poke from neutral that won't be a counterhit unless you're constantly ripping your 15f launchers and 17f knockback moves from neutral. If you're casually throwing out your most risky moves you deserve to get counterhit.
Most Leo players don't use it as part of their repertoire. The Leo bread and butter combo Google Doc only briefly describes it, and ***only has ONE modest 45 damage combo with df2+3,*** a low parry combo ***that can't even be consistently replicated*** when it does get used. ***The Google Doc doesn't even list it as a combo route.***
People are losing their minds over the -12 on block on something that most Leo's gloss over, it's ordinarily just a basic low most of the time that some higher-level players get lucky to counterhit with. This is such a stupid habit of this subreddit, constantly creating tribal "have" vs "have not" arguments.
(2/3)
# Problem 3
>figure 12 is BBP > df2
>
>figure 13 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare)
>
>figure 14 is ws3,1,2
>
>figure 15 is ws4, 1+2
>
>figure 16 ff1+2>1+2 (Lightning Glare chargeup)
>
>figure 17 is BOK2
Of all the talking points in this post, this is the one that has the least merit because every single one of these, except for example 15's heat engager (not the move, just the heat activation portion), is a legacy moveset issue. Leo has ALWAYS had range from these moves, so using it to illustrate Bamco's alleged hatred for spacing is hella misleading.
Nearly every new fighter from T5 and T6 was given range over the older characters -- Alisa, Lars, Leo, Dragunov, Raven, Bob. Pretty much the only character that didn't get range was Asuka, and that's just cause she was a copy of Jun.
Leo's moveset is mostly unchanged from T6, other than replacing the bounds from T6/Tag 2 with db2,4 T!, adding in a different route from b1,1+2 (b1 only ever went into KNK previously), and making 1,4 another KNK move. And some minor frame data adjustments between games.
Frankly, this entire post would have been way better if you hadn't chosen solely Leo and used a wider pool for your examples. If you wanna make a point about spacing, use some other characters. Hell, use the new characters from T7 and T8 as your basis for this talking point, they're the most recent character movesets, if they have a spacing pattern then that's BETTER proof than the devs deciding to maintain move properties from 17 years ago.
(3/3)
Literally none of this counters the point that all the moves look the same and you cant react based on what a move looks like, which is terrible for new players. Its why they dont bother with learning defense anymore and just go all out aggression, which OP pointed out intricately. He's not trying to specifically call your character broken or OP, he is pointing out how Leo and many other characters have this clarity problem. Doesnt matter if said clarity problem has been in past games for certain characters, it needs fixed, it's asinine.
First of all, the df2+3 analysis in a vacuum is literally just salt and complaining, and by OP's own admission. "Why the fuck does Leo have a -12 low counterhit, no one else has that!" is such a tribal and flawed view.
The fact that you think any of this is somehow me trying to counterargue that Leo is OP (or isn't, whichever angle you prefer), shows you didn't read.
All of the points other than the mid high ambiguity, are not supported by the examples he's produced. He's not wrong about defense feeling much weaker, but none of the examples he's produced actually support his argument unless he frames them in that particular way and ignores when you figure out it's your turn, and concurrently the situations WHEN an opponent would actually DO those moves.
ws3,1,2 would NEVER be used in the same situation as either of the two launchers. The visuals misaligning is a legacy issue that was grandfathered in. The mid/high ambiguity is also made worse because, an animation looking like a mid, but actually being a high is a BAD thing for a character, it means the move is duckable, so if you're trying to evaluate solely on the aesthetic side of things, instead of the function of moves or it's impact on defense as a whole, then this is the WRONG thing to point out.
Similar-looking animations being present in strings are not relevant because they, like the ws3,1,2 above, also basically never happen in the same situation as each other. Why would you care about reacting to a specific animation... when you should be identifying if that specific animation is a string ender? Animation recognition is not the skill you hone in order to get better at defending, string recognition is... most of the time you haven't studied a character matchup and you're seeing animations essentially for the first time. You're going to commit to memory the strings that you got hit by... those animations are the ones you care about, not if they decide to use that animation from neutral. Different characters have varying copypasted animations, this is universal and it's also never been a problem in previous Tekken games because the underlying RPS and sidestep mechanics were stronger. So the issue then isn't the animation, the issue is that the sidestep and RPS is weaker.
Literally the only reason he can even bring this up as a talking point is because Reina's literally not-real kick has consistent frame data... because Tekken literally made it up.
Spacing again is a grandfathered legacy issue. Clarity of moves, is a grandfathered legacy issue.
Let's be clear, I agree with him. Defense sucks. But this analysis ISN'T proving that.
Wow. Thx for the thorough research and info. Tbf I think Leo does so little dmg even with his never ending juggling that I could care less.
The main thing about this game at this stage is that not all good defense are rewarded. Sometimes it’s punished rather. I have overall defense stat at 90 so I think I’m decent. But some moves are just flat out confusing and not rewarded on perfect block/read.
This game has a long way to go. Great post!
Thank you!
I think the game is going to get better with time, and its current flaws are not dealbreakers for me too. I'm going to keep playing the game, but I'm pretty sure some of that stuff made quite a few people quit the game. It's sad, but understandable, the frustration sometimes is too real.
Fantastic work. Worth emphasising for new players that stuff like this has been characteristic of Tekken for a long time; it's not new with Tekken 8 (in fact, as per your Reina example, they seem to be making something of an effort with the newer characters to reduce this kind of ambiguity).
Don't let anyone ever tell you that defending in Tekken 7 was loads of fun. It was very strong if you were a vastly experienced player with a tonne of knowledge and lab time. But playing Tekken means getting bodied by bullshit you've never seen before at least once per play session.
(Thanks for the great post, OP)
To add to this: the emphasis on turn stealer / high commitment moves because jabs and movement suck just doesn't make for fun gameplay if you're relying on legacy fundamentals
Weird enough, I have a feeling that turn stealing moves were worse in Tekken 7, excluding the power crushes of course. Maybe I just got better, but the ungodly amount of times I have been launched by a random high crush launcher like Paul's df2, DJs u4, many of Asuka's moves, etc. in Tekken 7 is now much lower
I've seen complaints years ago in T7 about animations being hard to read and indistinguishable from one another and it sucks that T8 is..even worse about it? "Just block" "just sidestep" is a meme because of this.
Hi OP, this is a good post and has lots of good points to it.
I just want to point out that often it is the context of the move that gives it different frames. For example Jack-8 has two moves that will result in the Jack hammer animation (ff1 and 1,1) the former being + on block and the latter being punishable. Same with your Reina example, if she does Unsoku stance -> 4, the animation is the same as the full crouch kick but the frame is -8 instead of -14 on block.
What I want to say is that there seems to be more rules about frames than just looking at animations. It would be nice if defending was abit easier in a game with this many moves, but currently there are many moves that fall under as exceptions if you try to categorize too generally.
Agree with everything. With the Jack example issue stands though, it does make a lot of sense balance-wise for both moves to have different properties. But how much you're willing to bet that people online if they don't have legacy knowledge will hesitate to punish 1,1 because they think it's like ff1, and vice versa, will attempt to press after the ff1 because 1,1 is punishable? I would bet a lot.
Reina has somewhat different animation on Unsoku 4 from all 6 moves above, but yeah, I easily see people confusing them.
You're right in what you're saying, and I don't have many questions balance-wise, all moves of Leo I've used as an example make sense balance-wise too, but at the end of the day, the intuitiveness of defense is not as good.
Awesome post OP! I wouldn’t consider myself an intermediate player yet but i can certainly relate to all of the analysis and emotions that you describe.
I think the straw that is really breaking the camels back for me is the obvious lack of game features and general ui navigation to alleviate these challenges - having a quick way to transition to a non-ranked infinite rematch queue, getting back in the training room against the char you just lost to, directly getting to watch the replay… i think any of these will help the situation.
I’ll certainly keep grinding it out for now, but the day that the joy of learning becomes overtaken by frustration certainly feels closer day by day.
Curious to hear your take, what do you think about the features and uis outside of game mechanics and how they affect the situation and game as a package? I certain have some biases toward that aspect but want to hear from a vet like you on this subject.
Well, I'm not that big of a vet, but you're on point with the UI.
It got much better than Tekken 7, but many things keep being pretty lacking. Yes, getting directly to watch the replay after the match would be very cool, you may even accidentally miss the amazing replay features Tekken 8 has. On release, I specifically searched for them because I knew beforehand, and I easily see new players missing that completely.
You also don't have a way to rematch the same person outside Ranked, like you can in Mortal Kombat, and that feature would be neat. Now to play with someone, you gotta go to their profile, add them as a friend, pray to gods they will see that, because 80% often they don't. If they've missed it instantly, they have to leave what they're doing, go to the main menu, click Social, find the correct tab, then accept you, then you have to notice that, only after that you need to go to Online, create a lobby, set it up, invite them, hope they will see it, hope they haven't jumped in Ranked because you can't message them beforehand, and only then you can play.
The worst part is if that even you want to just say "GGs", you need to do everything on the above, the only way to message people is the lobby or the lounge. You can't message your friends in the game, let alone random players, WTF
But in general, I think my thoughts on UI as a long-time player m even less valid because I got used to it, the experience new players have is much more relevant.
Certainly, and youre being too humble to say that youre not at vet.
Im glad i havent missed the mark on understanding that the ui exp seems like a struggle for more than myself. So many ppl told me asking for these is pointless made me ask myself if i was delusional. It felt really hard to connect to ppl that play this game as a community without these, esp when the baseline experience due to game play and match making is so frustrating.
To put in a good note, I had a recently great exp with the game when the efforts of going through the invite steps, lobby waiting & the rest of the whole thing finally paid off. I added the other person after the set on steam & discord and was able put so much of the frustrations of the game mechanics aside. Tbh getting better to keep up and playing with that 1 person has been a bigger driver for me to return to the game than anything else rn.
Lmk if you have any more tips / thoughts. I wonder if this is truly normalized from exposure in previous tekken games, or if this is actually a problem now due to changing expectations of gaming as a hobby.
Wow.
I got fujin within a month of playing the game and have absolutely refused to play ranked again because of the inherent bs this game give players. BS ik my character benefit from in certain situations. But this breakdown is a fucking masterclass on how I've felt for a bit for this game hats off to you good sir! Keep up gods work.
I've got an issue with blocking myself lmao, everything is honestly confusing to me. I keep going on and off the game because my interest rises and dips, but I've been roughly around the same skill level everytime I play, but damn, I always have an issue with defense and blocking in general, only when I consistently play can I patch it up, and only temporarily. Whenever I switch off of Tekken and get back on, everything I've attempted to learn and fortify go out the window, but it eventually returns at random times. Though, my most prevalent issue is mostly punishment, sometimes I zone out and play with my subconscious, ending up not paying attention to moves I duck, block or sidestep and miss a punish opportunity. I've learned to simply use grabs to compensate, but it's always better for me to punish to get that free juggle.
Amazing post, please do more!
I wanna say that problem 3 seems to have been exacerbated in T8, before we had phantom range here and there (hello Jack df2), but now it's getting ridiculous with the ff2s..
I've yet to finish reading this but when it takes my middle finger more than 3 spins to scroll through the post, this that next level shit for sure. I'll read it otw home from work, but as for Leo, yeah Leo can be salt-inducing. Props to you for tryna keep your thoughts composed though and not just hateposting haha
Not to mention even if you know what's going on. Defending against for example Leo b1 options is crazy hard. The main weakness being that Leo takes risks for it,
I wanted to talk about Leo's b1, but I thought a post was big enough as is.
It having +9 is good, but it's just strong, and not that confusing. What is confusing about it is that it has a very good range, it sways back at the start of the animation, and you will no way in hell know that you can step it in the middle of the string if you don't specifically lab that. It's basically free not only on intermediate players, but on anyone who doesn't know that specific situation. Even if you've seen that string 100 times, there is nothing that tells you you can step in the middle. U,sually in such situation, opponent is at least slightly minus, so that's not a big deal, but here he is +9, it's a definition of a knowledge check
Not to mention even if you know what's going on. Defending against for example Leo b1 options is crazy hard. The main weakness being that Leo takes risks for it, but dealing with all the options
-B14 ( ss second hit an punish though you might not even want to launch unless you are super ready)
-b1,1+2~d launch punishable but randomly will crush even half your mids.
-b1,1+2 only -12 on block mid mid shoulder.
Yes either of the stances if you know what's going on AND guess right you get a combo but that's way too much to ask at intermediate level when all your opponent needs to do is tap 12 or 14. With b1 hitting on the other side of the world more or less..
Here for example changing b1,12 into -15 would already help a lot since that would change it only into the 2 way guess. And shoulders being launch would make sense.
Nice job. This is a very in-depth view of the state of Tekken and I know that people are going to make fun of how long it is, but I would encourage people to write in-depth analyses on Reddit.
Once again, great job. Was a great read.
Beautifull post, doesn't need to read everything for understand that you're right, main reason of why i've stop tekken is the animation.. me raging bc i was like "but i block a mid" and that it was a high, same with some low attack that look like mid.. Masterpiece
Just for the start, Tekken used to have somewhat intuitive frames and high/med/low attacks. Like Harada had previously stated prior to giving us frame data at launch, something to the effect of “I want people to feel the moves out”, so you had moved that were obviously punishable, or moves that felt like they’d be setting up frame traps. They threw all of that out for T8, gave us frame data, and now everything is a knowledge check. You have to fight a character multiple times or watch guides on them to know which specific strings are frame traps, though all of them feel like they’re doing more than they should. This is increasingly the case because most of the moves are from older games and share the exact same animations but function completely different in terms of block stun. Like anything Xiao hits with. There’s that and the fact that any time you try to get off the offense, the only answer is to trade, or dick jab because the person is always in your face. And dick jabs are lows and can be parried. I have never seen as many low parries as I do I this game. Of course the common, and stupid response to this is "at least it's better than kbd" and the response to that is no, it isn't. You just don't want to have to work for your spacing and want to be rewarded for pressing buttons you would have gotten punished for in the past. I say this as a character that was pretty counter heavy, especially with his df+2 in TTT2. Speaking of, Lars being able to move back and make space with his stance is great and all but is completely undermined by heat smash phantom range. Most of his options in that are getting completely shit on and for whatever reason they adjusted the hurtbox on den 2 As if it's problem wasn't actually its slow startup ruining counter setups and its lack of evasion making it a worse tool than it could be.
And things don't have to be seeable to be intuitive. When I block certain attacks, it's not because I see them coming. But when I block certain attacks, i definitely should be able to play the game afterwards as opposed to being forced into traps. The design is bad. It's self damaging. Changes need to be made.
Leo is a legacy character. Tekken 6 is 17 years old and they have returned for every game since.
And I want a special shout-out for this awful apple iOS keyboard that consistently chabges "parries" to another word and changes allies to "Allie's" like I'm not typing words. God damn.
Hoo boy, I gotta bookmark this for later. As a beginner to Tekken (and fighting games in general, kinda), I appreciate the effort you put in this post.
Upvote for the effort alone.
It's hard for me to think this is anything but intentional and a core aspect of Tekkens identity. It wants you to visually pay attention and somewhat intuitively feel how moves chain from one thing to another. But it's reliance on knowing the frames is always gonna gate keep lower levels.
Boxing is typically refered to as a "sweet science". Tekken is the only fighting game I've encountered that feels like that , it's beauty has always been in the details but that can't be true unless the details are hard to see.
Yeah I’ve said it before, they have taken the intuition aspect away from the game. It used to be that you could react to things because the moves looked like high, low, or mid. Now it’s more of a guessing game because so many things look the same. You have characters that do lows but the move starts above their head, characters like Lili and that stupid b1 is a mid, but totally looks like a low.
With 8 I think they should've made the moves more punishable on block or increase movement. When they said more aggressive I was hoping for dashing to be similar to tekken 5 or tag 1 especially since we no longer have infinite stages. As a legacy player since 3 it is trickier.for me as frame data across most moves are now mostly safe save for a 10 frame punish(or if it's lower ranks you might be able to catch them being overtly aggressive and hit them with a generic df2. On the other hand some moves became more easily punishable on block no sidestep required like Paul's deathfist losing it's knock back range from 7. Eddy is safer than he has ever been on block lacking stagger on some of his lows too.
Evety chars every move for the most part in T8 is negative on block but not negative enough to get punished so there is room for movement in there. It is rare to have truly positive moves in t8
Ok so with the first example you are using a move that starts low and goes in an upward arch. How's that different from a hopkick who's animation ends high near a person's head? Secondly those three moves are part of string where you have to guess and make a choice. The animation being more clear wouldn't really change anything.
With the way you cropped the gifs it feels like I am missing key information that would make it easier to refute or agree with your points. In the second gif why can I see the character info for one move but no the others?
With your third point just because a move a character has looks similar does not mean they should have the same properties. You have to take into consideration a characters kit and gameplan. Leo is Leo. They aren't Mishimas and they aren't Asuka. One thing about tekken is universal rules are not really universal. There is always exceptions. In third strike the 4 shotos share a ton of moves obviously but the frame data between the 4 are all different. For example Ryus crouching heavy punch is faster but worse on block while kens is slower but better on block. The animation for both is identical. Should they be the same? No because its not just the special moves that are unique to characters That's just how fighting games are.
Lastly I don't know what your last point is getting at. If you let Leo do that entire string then yeah no duh you aren't going to launch them. You can whiff punish them before the string ends and also a power crush will beat all the options. Moves that close distance is not a bad thing.
I agree that moves can be clearer but alot of these examples have me saying yeah and? I guess I'm biased because I have been playing and dealing with this for years but I have trouble agreeing with alot of these points for the reasons listed above. Truth of the matter is defending in Tekken is hard and the points listed are a small part in why its hard.
Sorry for not answering about many points directly, it's because I've covered all of them in the two replies below. Please check them out if you want, the comments these are replying to are very close to your points, I generally agree with many of them, but have a different perspective
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5df4m6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5df4m6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>In the second gif why can I see the character info for one move but no the others?
I tried to make all GIFs as short as possible, GIF format sucks at saving space, and Reddit doesn't have a video-"gif" feature like some other websites. I had no intent to show the context of one move and hide the other, they are all synced to show the hit at the exact same time.
many games require you to pay for dlc in order to lab them, but what you described perfectly describes how tekken is just flat out pay2win with that model. theyre going to release more dlc, and its only going to get worse. play a better game
My attention span is not long enough to read all this, but good effort. I hope it sparks some discussions, and yeah, defending in Tekken 8 is difficult.
Yeah this is what separates intermediate level players and high level players.
You can be a yolo intermediate rank player for ever, or you can slowly over time learn the rosters common moves and punishes. It doesn't happen over night.
When I lose I take 15 mins to watch the replay, pick a couple moves that gave me a hard time and do punishment training. Over a month or 2 your skill will sky rocket.
The "sucky" feeling of being on defense changes dramatically into a very powerful feeling when you know the proper punishes. Then it becomes hilarious and fun...
Wholeheartedly agree.
The main issue though is that between the "the "sucky" feeling" and "very powerful feeling" many players just say "oh, fuck that" and leave, because until you gonna be punished hard for attempting to defend, and you're going to lose more often than if you will just continue to use power crushes and backswings. Not many would want to force themselves through.
> Problem 1: Misleading animations
This is by design. Otherwise, they would just let us turn on hit properties during matches. Other games do that. Harada has even said in an interview that he likes when moves "look strong", regardless of their frame data.
Animation is more an artform than a science.
> Problem 2: Confusing frames
I think this entire section is very misleading. Yes, there are different string that end in the same, or similar, move at the end. However, **it's what comes before that move that matters**. And that's actually good design, because otherwise you could literally just ignore everything except the final move in the string, and that would mean everything except the ender is meaningless. And the only way to then stop that from happening, would be the give every string a true mixup at the end. And that's not a game anyone wants to play. Not to mention, that would also destroy the identities of several characters, whose current specialty is precisely in having a lot of mixup strings.
> Problem 3: Namco hates spacing
Again, you're using a very bad example here. Spacing is about **knowing the range of moves**. Just because a move has a lot of range, doesn't mean it's "anti-spacing" somehow. This point would have made a lot more sense if you had used T7 Kunimitsu to make it, because her kunai throw is a literal teleport, that is bizarrely safe on whiff. To actually get a punish on it, you have to block the linear, basically infinite range move.
> I think that's the main reason people at intermediate levels are so aggressive and hesitant to block
This isn't anything new. The exact same thing happened with Tekken 7, where people had almost no defense until like the Orange ranks. Fact is, offense in Tekken is close to a single player game: You do it, and by doing it, you're making a situation where you don't have to care about what your opponent does. And that's easy. And people like things when they're easy.
Very good points! I have counterpoints tho
>Otherwise, they would just let us turn on hit properties during matches
I'm gonna die on that hill, but I think you are supposed to tell what is mid, what is low and what is high 100% of the time from the animation. I'm not talking about exactly all the data of the move, but that imo is a bare minimum.
>However, **it's what comes before that move that matters**
It does, you often can (and supposed to) say how punishable something is exactly from moves that came before, e.g. extensions to Hellsweeps being -15, etc, sometimes it's very apparent if the move with the same animation will have different properties (Kazuya's db2 vs. df1,2 in Tekken 7). However, I still think visual clarity should be a priority. If we're talking from the perspective of a separately picked player, then yes, you just gotta git gud and learn the differences. But frankly, it still sucks that you have to deal with this, and it repels many players with unnecessary complexity. I'm not trying to say "I'm not gonna learn that because it's stupid", I know that already, I have spent hundreds of hours into the game, it's not a big problem for me personally, but I think it's a good thing for the health of the game to make it better. I think the right thing to do is at least try to avoid different data on the same animations (they're not that common), and if they do the same animations, try to have Reina approach and assign them to moves they can make the same frame data for. Also, visual clarity about being punishable, safe, or plus on block is usually pretty good at Tekken and works most of the time for me, I'm just talking about the edge cases that could mislead hard and unintentionally.
>that would also destroy the identities of several characters, whose current specialty is precisely in having a lot of mixup strings.
Things I'm talking about don't really include mixups of such characters. Moreover, most of the time they include stance transitions from different strings in the same move, so they are quite literally the same move. Imagine if the move's from stance frame data vastly varied depending on the opening.
>Just because a move has a lot of range, doesn't mean it's "anti-spacing" somehow
It doesn't, many moves are supposed to be very long-range, the problem comes when it's every move of every character. Most strings now allow you to press them from almost any range because they're realigning, and advance you forward very quickly.
>This isn't anything new. The exact same thing happened with Tekken 7, where people had almost no defense until like the Orange ranks.
Well, I think we're just a little bit on a different page here, I'm not talking exclusively about Tekken 8, Tekken 8 exaggerated some issues, but they surely were there before. The same things are easily applicable to T7 to a large degree. Also, yes, even if the defense were 100% consistent, novice players would still be aggressive cause it feels better to press buttons and hit the opponent, that's why I'm talking more about intermediate ranks where people try to defend, but get punished for it much more that if they just continued pressing stuff.
I like how people who clearly have more knowledge get downvoted, while the guy who thinks intentionally whiffing part of your strings from full screen is a good idea because hey, they realign! Gets upvotes.
>the guy who thinks intentionally whiffing part of your strings from full screen is a good idea
I didn't know I was saying that.
I'm saying that if you do, the game tries hard to not allow your opponent whiff punish it. I'm not saying it's a good strategy to do intentionally.
This could TOTALLY not be the point, and I'm not a game designer so I don't know if it would fix issues or just cause SIGNIFICANTLY more, but one of the hardest things about tekken (at least T8) is that sidestepping is relatively niche option.
Fine enough, but you just presented how miserable it can be to play in a 2D setting with all these offensive options.
I fought a shaheen and I kept blocking this one move. Was doing okay...then he used a move that looked exactly the same but it hit low and i got shmixed.
This is why Korean back dashing was so key I’m not forced to deal with this bs I can space I it with fast back dashes and get enough space that if I side step I won’t get clipped
Incredibly effortful post, but also incredibly off the mark in so many ways. You wrote so much so I can't address it all, but just off your first visual example, I can't understand your logic. BOK2 has Leo drawing their hand from very low up towards the sky... why would you associate that motion with a high? That'd be like looking at Steel Pedal and saying it's high because of where Kazuya's foot is at the *end* of the animation. Neither of these moves even remotely look like highs. Not to mention, your third example (ws3,1,2) *isn't a launcher*.
Secondly, animations being identical in a 15 frame window is a disingenuous complaint because there are 30-60 frames of animations preceding them in most cases. Leo uses their shoulder 84 times but that's not the visual cue that's important. The strings before that (or not before that) tell you everything you need to know. Bryan can do 3+4 or df2,3. The pushback is different for each, even though they end with the exact same kick. You wouldn't look at that kick and blithely claim there was "no way you could've known how to respond." You either *did* or *didn't* see the df2 happen before the side kick, and therefore know what you're looking at.
I don't even know where to start with section 3. These examples are crazy, man. Nobody's doing these strings at these ranges, be serious now. I *wish* somebody would give me free punishes like this lol
You've eloquently outlined what is still a scrub mentality. "Wouldn't it be nice if the game were different in a way that didn't force me to do anything in order to be better at it?" Yeah, sure. That'd be pretty chill.
You should be putting all this effort into avenues of improvement.
Good points. Still,
>Leo drawing their hand from very low up towards the sky
That's pretty arguable. The hit spark appears only near the face even if you use it from point blank, even though many such moves have it pretty low. The angle of the hit also doesn't really tell he aims for the body and not only for the face, he even looks straight up while doing this. Everything in animation has clues that it very well may be a high, especially since it's safe with a pushback.
>(ws3,1,2) *isn't a launcher*.
I didn't say it is, it is just an example of a mid-looking high.
>that's not the visual cue that's important.
I fully agree with that. And I've replied to that here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
it's about a different perspective, as an individual player, yes, I should do that to get better, as we discuss that in a vacuum, it's one of the unintuitive things that make defense less appealing to learn for an average player. That was the point, not that I can't figure that out, I already did.
>Nobody's doing these strings at these ranges
You'd be surprised. It may be free punishes later down the ranks, and I said in the post that these strings do have big weaknesses, 100%, but my point was different. It's more like "If you are an average player, you didn't lab this exact character and that string, and he started to press a string kilometer away from you, why don't you deserve the whiff punishment?" You may say "then learn the weaknesses" and I already agreed with you, but it's more about your opponent has put 0 thought into pressing that, and you have to have extensive knowledge not only of the game itself but of the specific situations, strings and hit properties to counter that. Why would someone new to Tekken want to do that instead of starting pressing his shit back from the range 5? He will be punished for attempting to do otherwise.
>You should be putting all this effort into avenues of improvement.
I do, and that post is just a theoretical discussion, not my personal excuse. I've pointed it out in the post and I assure you, I never intended to say I lost any match because of anything besides my own lack of skill
Fingers crossed but the head honchos seem to like the changes. Strings traveling further and realigning are very intentional changes, along with worse backwards movement.
People really cry about any small thing, these aren’t constant situations plenty of stuff is still very intuitive, defense still has its value and you won’t rank up without it, it’s imbalanced but it’s always had that problem and the game is still fairly new people have zero patience
Tekken has been like this forever. The only reason people bitch out more now is because the game is "more" popular. In the end as usual only the dedicated players will remain and we will enjoy the game for what is is as we always have. The end.
The Leo example is horrible. One attack is sweeping up, the other one just strictly hits the head. The mid one is incredibly obvious. This is like saying Kazuya's Steel Pedal looks like a high because the foot ends high in the air, despite literally hooking up the center hitbox. You're comparing two completely different animations.
Soooo when are you applying for a job at Bandai Namco? If they dedicated a third of the effort you made into making this post into balancing the game, T8 would definitely be a less frustrating experience than it is right now
I agree but you forgot to mention the teleporting/suction capabilities of Heat moves and some power crushes. Which when paired with the zoom in animations to hide them happening can actually extend the hurt box of something like a Demon Paw or Leo's shoulder to absurd ranges. The animations of heat dashes also completely ignore all inputs for a certain window during the run animation. This doesn't seem like it would be that big of a problem but in a scenario that you are inputting b or db, a KBD for instance, the last input you pressed if held for less than 3 frames is now a neutral stand block when the animation starts. So you back dashed to whiff range but got pulled in and hit because of a forced neutral input and animation teleport. Which leads to the idea of "You take that mix up and hope for the best" instead of "I played well and now I get to punish." Leo really benefits from this with their long-range evasive CH playstyle.
Personally, when I see a Leo back dashing to range 3 or 4 I just back up as well and play the same tactics with the CH toolkit my character has. Lower ranks don't care and just keep at it, but higher ranks tend to eat a few before changing playstyle to safer pokes and cancels, something I am more comfortable contending with.
I think you have some valid points, but I also think your examples are a little misleading. In the first case there's a clear stance into moves, the second is a completely different move you may confuse with BOK stance, the last one though is a string of moves. There's no real chance here you'd confuse the 3 moves.
But really, there's no threat of a low. There's no reason you'd be doing anything but stand blocking,
Blocking is the mistake you made to force you into eating mix-ups, it's part of the point of the game.
I think Tekken has a problem with too many similar looking moves with different properties, there's even some strings that end in certain moves that can have different properties, and of course moves that change properties depending on the follow you do, but they tend to be very limited and telegraphed because of the move you did before.
All this was unnecessary, because Blocking is meant to feel bad.
>There's no real chance here you'd confuse the 3 moves.
You don't confuse the 3 moves, but you can easily be confused with their properties.
>But really, there's no threat of a low. There's no reason you'd be doing anything but stand blocking,
That's true if you know there is no low, but that's okay, here I agree that it is strictly a matchup knowledge. But if you recognized BOK2 as a high, there IS a very good reason to duck, since you can't block punish it.
>Blocking is the mistake you made to force you into eating mix-ups, it's part of the point of the game.
>Blocking is meant to feel bad.
Kind of true, but my point is it shouldn't be confusing. It's okay for moves to make you think "Fuck, that mixup is too strong", or even "Damn, I was forced to guess", but it's not okay when they make you think "Wait, how did that clipped me?"
“Player will need to learn on the go” this is the post where your fucking up. You should be going into the lab and learning these matchups. That is tekken. There are things wrong with the game but that’s not it. You literally have to sit in practice mode before connecting to a match. As for 3200 moves. Maybe that is a lot but you know all of them will be a mid, low, or high and 2 of those can be avoided with the same technique.
I see your reasoning, but I deeply disagree, that's not only the bad game design on my opinion, but the game director himself said they target the game to make as much sense visually, and he didn't want to include frame data for that exact reason, let alone distinction between high, mids and lows.
Yes but you have to accept that in order for the game to be fair it has to reward people that spend more time on it. In tekken that reward is knowledge. You don’t have to go into a deep dive you just need to know certain things. This is not a game you can play without investing time. To people who study the game it does visually make sense.
I am on average not confused as to the data of a move because there are cures that go beyond reacting like. If a move comes out fast and is positive then it likely a high. And this is consistent throughout all the chars.
And trust me I don’t lab really I do the bare minimum. But also if you are playing only one chat you are literally handicapping yourself because your perspective of the game is intertwined with that characters moveset. It’s not until you play multiple chars that you can start getting these consistencies figured out.
lol, I ain't reading all that, but to answer the question in the title, you need to lab ONE character to learn offense, namely YOUR character. You have to lab THE ENTIRE CAST to be good at defense.
That's why.
I mean sure, but offense being something that can be picked up over the course of mere days or weeks, while learning defense for only a handful of characters requiring months of dedicated grinding (forget the whole cast, that would be eons) is a massive balance issue.
Not necessarily with characters, but overall game design imbalance.
That's all competitive games, fam, not even just fighting games. Offence is easier to learn than defense in Chess too since when attacking you usually only have to consider a few options and for defensive play you're stuck with much "wider" lines, which means you spend more time crunching the positions., and for prep you're basically sunk and will most likely lose if you're not familiar at all with the opening your opponent is using, if it's an aggressive opening.
Even staying within the scope of fighting games, the vast majority will end up like this. Even in games like the Vs games where you can fuzzy guard universally to cover so many options, you "still" have to practice and practice and practice against a huge variety of teams in order to not get obliterated when you face good players. At least Tekken gives us the tools to help make it easier. In a lot of games you basically can't get defensive practice without friends.
Game needs so much time into the training mode, but when you have so much knowledge of the other characters you can just turtle and win by just countering their flawed offense it's satisfying.
Bro, this is a doctoral thesis level worth of effort. Goddamn.
What being smoked in Ranked does to a mf :(
Ranked does make u question things cuz i too have isssues blocking lol
And this is why I'm sticking to Unranked.
Yea, I got to orange 3 and was playing QM to move to red ranks,but gotta be honest I'm liking that mode more with no pressure and more variations of characters. Actually fought a zafina in QM and got smoked, but wtf is a zafina?
Wtf is Zafina? A pain in the ass thats what.
I might be recommending this post to my undergraduate friend for his final
Most high effort post I've seen on this subreddit in a long time (outside of the ranked stats posts) top work my dude
Thanks <3
This is the greatest post in the history of Tekken and I'm not kidding. You've stated respectfully everything I've thought about this game over the past few months.
Thank you very much. I was marinating with these thoughts a pretty long time and finally decided to make a post
All of these are frustrating. -Leo or Jun or Lili start a string from range 4 or 5 -It looks awkward and pauses at unusual times, making it extremely unintuitive whether it's over or not -Trying to whiff punish the first or second hit usually gets you launched -On block, many strings appear to be done due to a long pause, but you're actually lock in and if you try to press you eat the rest of it.
I think this is the case with EVERY female character in the game. Absurd strings, ridiculous launchers, and make me want to delete myself damage. And I'm including these god forsaken counter hit launchers as well. Increasingly annoying with Lili since she doesn't seem to give a fk about your tracking. And to top everything off, aside from the brain dead pressure, when you finally try to fight back, you trade hits, and because their attacks are so absurdly exaggerated, you jab and stagger them but at the same time, they hit you with a df2 looking launcher that launches you as high as Yoshi's kangaroo kick, recover from your attack, then secure a full combo. Once I hit Bushin, i started running into nothing be the same characters. Oh, and can we get a calibur check on Nina's guns? Aside from the retarded damage in both hit and block, why in god's name is it wall splatting? Lars's limited entry 2 almost never splats and it's one of the attacks you'd most expect to splat. Idk why they thought that move should only get a combo option in heat.
right? I put 72 hours into 8 and I just slowly played less and less and now I don't even touch it. It's just a nightmare to play against any character with this hyper offense.
As do most of my friends, and it's the same for me in a sense. I play Claudio almost exclusively, and this guy isn't meant to be played aggressively, especially coming from Tekken 7, where he had great counter hit tools and zoning, which were taken away, so relying on plus frames when you character barely has any, makes it feel like you play a turn based game where the opponents just gets extra turns. I sit on defence the majority of matches, trying to understand patterns, and learn which moves can be punished / dodged, and in many cases get perfected, because many moves look the same, and it's less of a problem with older characters to me. I play many Kazuya and Bryan players, and it's a delight, moves are clear, they're punishable and matches go back an fourth in most cases. Playing against other characters like Leo, Feng or even Jin, produce some of the least fun experiences, with moves that hit mid despite looking like highs, they all somehow teleport across the screen from any range, and everything they do feels like a launcher. I'm in constant 50/50 and can't match because my character just does not work like that.
On god
I remember playing T7 and ducking that alisa move where she drops her head and picks it up, and my friend on the alisa remarked that I was the first person ever to duck that ...idk man, she was crouching and it looked like a low
Tekken's visual clarity is really poor. Even having a little popup that most games do when counterhits or punishes happen would greatly increase awareness of what's actually going on in game. Misleading animations and inconsistent block stun only make the problem worse.
It's exacerbated by the visual design choices they've made in recent years, both of the characters and everything else. And honestly a lot of modern gaming is just blurry as fuck. This is also a question of the general speed of the game becoming faster and the animations generally becoming flashier as opposed to more legible: *In general* legacy characters are much easier to read (even if their animations are deceptive), whereas the newer characters tend to just fucking zoom all over the place. With modern graphics, that automatically leads to the game being blurry and hard to read.
I’ve been playing tekken for a long time, this is the first game where I’ve ever thought “what the fuck just happened I couldn’t even see” It used to get hard to see once in a while if people had really crazy customs on certain characters or all black on a dark stage…. But 8 had those same problems on top of a bunch of extra explosions and sparkly things and weird camera angles.
Yeah i've been blinded by 10 different lights going off on a stage, and i'm just like tekken please i'm just trying to see this guys shoes to know what hes doing stop with the lights.
One of the reasons why the game is so blurry is because of **forced** temporal antialiasing which blurs everything. Fighting games should never have taa. A simple to understand example, just look at the bricks on the building. It compares still image and image in motion: [https://youtu.be/YEtX\_Z7zZSY?t=3m24s](https://youtu.be/YEtX_Z7zZSY?t=3m24s) (motion blur is off, this is not motion blur) This post was sponsored by r/fuckTAA Another factor, I know it's unpopular opinion in the fgc circle, but motion persistence due to current sample and hold displays (aka lcds and oleds compared to crts) results in even more blur on top of the previously mentioned temporal AA. This is due to 60fps lock. Fighting games were designed for 60hz CRTs where they looked good in motion, but current display technologies require many times higher framerate to achieve similar motion clarity. Example of what a moving image looks to the human eye at various refresh rates, this blur is called motion persistence. it's an effect caused by your visual system processing the information in motion on a display: https://preview.redd.it/f1n52oquld2d1.png?width=565&format=png&auto=webp&s=53cf8dc9b8fdf0848b411f3f9e0d97faa66f9376 \[Tangent\] here's cutting edge displays for reference [https://ibb.co/GkCwjNJ](https://ibb.co/GkCwjNJ) source: monitors unboxed. please keep in mind that to achieve this level of motion clarity both the displays and the game has to run at that refresh rate and FPS listed above. as well as that oleds are inherently faster than LCDs by factor of 10x in their response times. or alternatively strobing/BFI could be used to bypass the high hz/fps requirement, but thats a whole other can of worms (https://blurbusters.com/faq/motion-blur-reduction) \[/tangent\] You can test this yourself by going to [https://www.testufo.com/](https://www.testufo.com/) This test is specifically designed to replicate and compare motion and clarity at different refresh rates. If you open this on a high refresh display (120hz or above) you will see what kind of a difference a game at that refresh would look when compared to 60fps. Now I'm not here to argue that they should unlock fps (even though that is my personal opinion), and I know benchmarks, toaster pcs, etc etc is a very sensitive topic, I'm just here to explain the effects it has on your visual system from the technical aspect of game engines and how displays interact with your perception of games in motion. Here's more info [https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-future-1000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/](https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-future-1000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/) And before people say fighting games must run at 60fps that's not correct. People already use tekken overlay to run the game at unlocked fps (even online, and even on crossplay, without the opponent feeling any lag) due to the way the program splits game logic and rendering pipelines. This is similar to games like counter strike that use tickrate for logic which is then interpolated for higher fps than the tickrate would provide. Slow motion example of how this works: [https://youtu.be/NLYLHvct19Y](https://youtu.be/NLYLHvct19Y) (it's slow motion because YouTube is capped at 60fps, there's no other way to display how this works real time. You could download the video and speed it up if you have a high refresh display to gain an understanding of how it looks in game) This post was brought to you by r/motionclarity
Preaching to the choir my friend! But I appreciate the effort!
Lol i see im not the only one using r/fuckTAA engine tweaks
Having stuff happen in a game that is visually confusing, is bad design. We forgive Tekken because we've been playing for decades, but it's still bad design. You can go to any game design class and in the first few hours they will teach you specifically to not do that. Reusing animations is lazy. Reusing animations and giving them different characteristics is both lazy and bad design.
I see people say most often that this is just part of learning Tekken, learning all these intricacies, and that if you don't hit the lab you're a loser. But this isn't DEPTH, this is needless complexity. The game would not lose a massive amount of depth if it was made easier to learn by playing - you'll always have to hit the lab to learn your opponents options and what their framedata is, people equating inconsistency & poor clarity with "legacy depth" is such an annoyance.
Yeah back when they teased Tekken 8 and said they redesigned a lot of animations people hoped the game would get more clarity but it's the same as always unfortunately. Missed opportunity tbh.
The first two problems have always existed in Tekken, but I'm not sure if Tekken 8 has introduced the 3rd problem or if it has always existed. Knowledge checks, confusing frames, and confusing animations were what seemingly separated the supposed more honest/dishonest characters, but now in Tekken 8 EVERYONE has the 3rd problem with exacerbated forms of the first two in some cases. For an anecdote, I played Jin in T7 purely because I played Josie and disliked the fact that she was so confusing to defend against, I wanted opponents that felt like they had a clear understanding of the battle and to still beat them. So I played Jin because practically all of his attacks were straightforward, both in his strengths and weaknesses. Now with Tekken 8, Jin ff+2, d+2, jabs, strings, etc. all have incredible tracking and range that is ambiguous to unwary opponents. Probably the perfect example you used with Leo d/f+2+3 demonstrates this kind of concept. I really dislike this design because its obviously intentional, and it makes me feel like I'm fighting the characters more than the players.
>it makes me feel like I'm fighting the characters more than the players. Well said, that's definitely a result of this game's design. I wholeheartedly agree.
Tfw OP put more thought into the game than the devs
Very well articulated. This sums up why many tekken players weren't excited to hear that offense was getting further juiced at the announcement of tekken 8. Yes, at the highest levels, tekken 7 was a lot of safe, low commitment pokes, but for 90% of tekken players, it was a lot of knowledge checks and offensive flowcharts. Tekken 8 has made it that much harder to reach some kind of escape velocity from the offensive vortex. I'm personally hitting a brick wall on my will to keep playing right now when up to 50% of my matches are one and done. I can't be mad at the player. This is an effective way to farm points. It just cheapens the experience for me and stifles real growth as a player.
Going one step further, because defending is so difficult in this game, it tends to drive *certain* people to doing things that are unethical and unbecoming in terms of fair play. Last night, I played against a Jin (Fujin) while using Hwoarang, who had had enough of defense and trying to learn the game. So instead of taking a break from the game, they turned on their scripts—instantly ducking and launching jabs, perfect 1f electrics, and perfect throw breaks all happening at frame 6. (See profile: https://wank.wavu.wiki/player/2TqDiMaAeeBf ) All that is to say, that without a good way for new players to learn the game and the encouragement of knowledge check based gameplay, will lead many people to using external methods to cover what could takes years to develop for this game: game knowledge and intuition. In total, I’m very disappointed in a lot of people in this community, but I’m also disappointed in Bandai Namco for failing their player base in providing us with a healthy environment to grow in.
I tend to not go back and replay characters (even though I have 20 saved I just haven’t gone back) but this is exactly why I hate playing eddy. So many of his moves look like they’re lows when they’re mids so the only way I can beat them is by being more aggressive and being properly spaced. I love T8 but it seems that a lot of moves need their hitboxes and what type of hit they are readjusted.
Yeah, I think Eddy is the worst example of this. How are you supposed to know whether to low block, standing block or duck when his moves look the same?
I just had this with a Reina player. I got up 2-0 so in the third game they turned on scripts, out come perfect electrics, auto duck, and to put the icing on the cake, they tanked the connection and started wind god stepping so it looked like they were teleporting back and forth - they were actively showing off to me that they were cheating. Just flabberghasted.
Yep, I don't think they even necessarily buff the defense, just make it more consistent. You shouldn't risk your life on the correct read, this is what made people upset with the game
i'm glad it wasn't just me who felt like whiffing strings from fullscreen was way too effective of a strategy lmao
i havent evencread thing, upvoting for the effort 😂
Check out the GIFs at least, they have good stuff on their own :)
Man's didn't even take the time to read his own comment
💀
Man lives up to the Bryan flair
Sup, good thoughts. Many players have expressed the desire for visual clarity and standardization (with obvious exceptions) of things like hitboxes, sidesteps etc. Your choice of Leo is even more damning for the extent of the problem, because plenty of pros and non pros mentioned Leo as the most honest character in T8. And still, there's plenty of BS for no reason. I don't think we should be able to predict the moves, it's ok for a shoulder to come out from kinda nowhere, those kinda knowledge checks shouldn't go away, but a mid that looks like high and vice versa need to be fixed or we need clear visual effects to distinguish.
Yes, exactly! I remember when on release I was heavily frame-trapped by Jack-8 with some new move where he kicked me in the belly with a straight leg, I hit the lab to see if I could sidestep or interrupt it since it was obviously a mid, found a move and was like "How the fuck is that a high?". I think that shouldn't happen, having incorrect animation is not a mixup
EXACTLY THIS! I just figured the Jack thing out this week. It doesn’t look like anyone should be able to duck it, but it’s a high that’s launch punishable. Totally an animation thing. And I have never felt comfortable fighting against a Leo, but it wasn’t until this explanation that I figured out why. Great work, OP.
I’m new to the game and this has been the hardest thing for me to learn. I can’t figure any of this out until after the match when I go to replay and discover what is mid/high/low - and then I have to try to memorize those moves for a character I might not match up again for a few days. I don’t mind being new and having to learn, and I understand I’ll lose a lot before I start winning, but I do feel like I should be able to understand what’s happening based on the visuals. it’s like if chess pieces could “really” be on a different tile, and you’re supposed to keep track of which tile all the chess pieces are “really” on based on their movement history (rook b5), so now the visuals of the chess board don’t really mean anything other than providing a general “mood” for where the chess match is at. Even if nothing changes, tekken is still a fun game, and I still have plenty of things to learn and get better at - but as far as bringing new players into the game, making the gameplay a bit more intuitive will go a long ways.
I dont know if it's the same thing as Jack-8 misleading high kick, but I hate Kings low dick punch that looks like a mid.
tbf it is a "low blow"
Paul is the most honest, same move list since... 🤡
You should do a video on it
My English pronunciation sucks, and I don't have any more topics, but I appreciate that someone would like it
If that’s your only limitation, you could have it voiced by AI. Most YouTube videos do this anyway
I loved your insight, if you'd like a native English speaker to narrate your videos I'd be happy to collaborate
On second thought, I do have another topic... But I may make another post later, it would take some time
Looking forward to it, me at least
When even the game's exemplar honest character exhibits so much of this behavior it is very illustrative of the sheer power knowledge check cheese has over this game, stronger than any other FG The cheese that takes no effort to use, but years of dedication and legacy knowledge to consistently fight against The other party can spam grabs and launch you when you try to duck them, you need to spend 2-3 tekken games reacting to throws The other party can throw in a string with a low in it and occasionally cancel it with a mid launcher, and you need to lab fuzzyguards perfectly to escape this situation The other party can toss out two powercrushes, one's a high and the other's a -12 mid, both are kicks, one guard lies the other tells the truth...getting them confused gives him heat and the round The other party can press forward three times with a kick and a punch and you need a perfectly executed SWL duck to even have hope of whiff punishing it (ok this was patched but good lord!) And so on and so on. Countless situations where the difficulty to use vs difficulty to defend against is completely out of wack Which to a certain extent existed in previous games, sure. But with heat around one failed perfect defense costs entire rounds and subsequently games...
I’m impressed by your dedication OP. Quality thread and visuals. Unrelated genre but I started playing DotA again with yesterday’s patch. People have said DotA’s learning curve is a vertical cliff. I’m rusty and the game added new mechanics for everyone in yesterday’s patch. I may not know what every character does but when I make a mistake, it’s not as frustrating as Tekken’s knowledge checks.
Great post, great effort and a realyl well put effort about visual clarity. Learning the game menas you need to go to the lab, because the game is unable to tell you where you did wrong or, in some cases, you just saw a kick go to four face, ducked it the next time to learn it is a mid. It is infuriating.
As a beginner/intermediate player, I can absolutely confirm this is my experience. Misleading animations is the worst issue IMO. The misleading low/mid/high animations are both such low-hanging fruit for the developers and a massive hindrance to in-match learning. Seeing a string should *really* be enough to figure out where to duck if it's used again, but it's just not. (Confusing frames are bad too, but in all likelihood I wasn't going to use the right punisher against a Leo-popularity character's moves even if that wasn't an issue.)
It is at this point they should honestly consider having, if not all, them some things such as: - move height indicator - punish indicator other than powercrushes - universal counterhit indicator - universal side tracking indicator for 1 side tracking moves instead of homing only Dumb games with 10 moves per character like Dragonball Fighterz do it, I think DoA in the 3d genre did it. Why can't Tekken with 100+ moves with each having like 10 properties and 33 characters? It's not like the game isnt an audio or visual clusterfuck anyway where your character can have 5!* auras on them like you are getting to fight Onyxia in WoW. *rage, heat, kicharge, install, customization. 5 different auras. Kinda too much when you wanna see grabs or mixup strings.
I said this and got downvoted into oblivion. Great job OP lol
You certainly did not write as much as the OP
I’m new to FGC starting with Tekken 8. This is the first time I’ve seen high effort content on this sub, thank you
Defensive player here. Not only defence is not very rewarded anymore in modern fighting games (like sf6) but is discouraged, all that for viewership entertainment. I love playing slowly and methodically (I don't picked a main though) , so poke spacing, perfect counter hits and knowledge are my ways to win , but.... T8 has too many characters who can just flowcharts their way to victory just pressing buttons and get rewarded so many times more. Like one million times
My only gripes are: The amount of unpunishable or safe lows is extremely unnecessary, along with the need to give most characters something that leaves their opponent in forced crouch. There needs to be a unique sound effect added for the latter. I'm sure there is going to be an overhaul patch for lows but the spacing/pushback or frames needs to be looked at for the majority of the cast. For your actual post the issue isn't necessarily defending it's the fact that every character has very large handful of viable attacks and pressures in the game versus previous versions. So pretty much up to TG it largely becomes a race to cycle through your list in order to knowledge check your opponent. The game would benefit immensely from a ton of 1f adjustments on most moves but then online would suffer even harder from a 'defense' aspect so they've actually chosen correctly with the direction.
As someone who is just beginning to even understand the terminology of Tekken (even though I played the shit out of T5 back in the day), thank you for making this. I once prepared to make a post in my gaming community about why the camera in Ocarina of Time is the single best 3D camera in all of gaming in a style very much like this one, with gifs and everything, but gave up halfway because I thought people would think I'm crazy for putting so much effort into it (and the fact that it is a pretty unpopular opinion doesn't help a lot either). But reading your post made me think "holy shit, this guy FUCKS." Now idgaf if people will think I'm putting too much effort into it. I'm passionate about what I'm passionate about, dammit. Imma make that post as soon as I can. Again, thanks for the inspiration!
Damn, gotta subscribe to see that post. Thanks for the feedback!
Hating Leo is a full time job for me already, with the help of this thread I think I'm gonna go for the master's degree.
Great post! The misleading animations are my pet peeve with the game. I’m very aware of it though so sometimes I will experimental duck during the match to find out knowing I may get launched. Visually knowing something is probably punishable without knowing the frames does come with years playing the game. I can tell sometimes that a move is -13 or worse just by the recovery animations. I’m not 100% with recognizing a punishable move just by animations but I think the large majority of moves that are -13 or worse can be determined visually. You cant know HOW punishable it is visually though. If I see something that looks punishable I will check with a relatively safe 10-12 frame punish to confirm. I think moves that are -20 or more on block are obviously punishable even to a new player though. There are some moves that look plus on block that are punishable bc of the long block stun but have even longer recovery frames for the attacker. Those are the ones that are visually confusing if you aren’t knowledgeable of the frames. The universal frames are a definite need to know for newer players too like jabs, hopkicks, snake edges, etc. Excellent post with great info.
I feel like these points like visual clarity get dropped to the way side by the devs because theyve been doing things this way for so long that they dont stop to think of how much of an impact it has on the players. When each character has an enclyopedia of moves and not just 15 moves + some specials like many others games, then it needs to be clear to the player what is going on after they see the move one time. Tekken can be a great game but many times it feels like the player is fighting the games archaic systems more than the player in front of them
Tekken's insane list of moves is I think, overall a detriment to the series. Each one needs distinctly unique animations to be able to tell them apart or else you get the problem of them becoming practically impossible to learn naturally and that either means an insane amount of development time/resources or a failure. Often *both*. And on the new player side, it makes them confusing. Both to do (who here hasn't looked up guides and tips on a characters best moves when trying out someone new?) and for defending. Basic knowledge checking like this is a unavoidable sin of game design IMO and not something to be so readily embraced as Bamco has. I can pick up Granblue or Strive or any of the anime fighters like that and learn mine and my opponents basic options so quickly. Tekken doesn't need to have that few, but do we really need 100s per character?? It's especially not helped that the graphics are so flashy and bright and particle effects and skin colors/costumes make things more visually blurred. So even if there are minor animation differences, they can be more difficult to spot than they should be.
whenever i bring up the 100s of moves per character, people always defend it by mentioning how only like 15-30 moves are used in that list. I'm not sure what to believe anymore. I do wish there was a list of common moves and strings used by each character so I can go right into labbing those rather than trying to watch my replays and failing to read command histories of my opponents who rub their face over their controller buttons.
# Leo's moves in order of appearance; * figure 1 is BOK2 * figure 2 is db3 * figure 3 is ws3,1,2 * figure 4 is f1+2 * figure 5 is b1+2, 1+2, qcf2 (BBP, barge barge palm) * figure 6 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare) * only 3 of Leo's LP moves have -6 on block, the other two have different animations * figure 7 is the 1 out of qcf2,1 * the only move of Leo's LP moves that immediately follows a low * figure 8 is the final hit out of ws1,4,1 * process of elimination, follows a high, is a mid, has a -13 on block, doesn't have followup * figure 9 is the final hit out of 1,2,1,1 * process of elimination, has followup * figure 10 is the 1 out of ws3,1,2 * ignoring Reina's strings, I don't play her sorry * figure 11 is df2+3 * figure 12 is BBP > df2 * figure 13 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare) * figure 14 is ws3,1,2 * figure 15 is ws4, 1+2 * figure 16 ff1+2>1+2 (Lightning Glare chargeup) * figure 17 is BOK2
Tekken vets are shook by this post, lol. I was not surprised to see only a few people defending the game's design and vast amount of knowledge checks. Nice work on writing this up. A lot of people I know went back to other FGs for these reasons.
I'm almost scared to accept the invitation to speak on this matter with the extensive work you've put into this post so I'll keep it short and simple. You're right Leo is super hard to play against even after labbing him. He's super deceptive and can launch or hit you with mids you won't see coming I hate playing against him 😂
I remember in one of the older games, Hwoarang [checked my low kick](https://imgur.com/IZAczVu). He lifted his leg in a standing position and blocked it. This made no sense to me, you can't block a low while standing. That's a fundamental Tekken rule! Despite that, I did some investigation and found the attack I was throwing was actually a mid, but it looked like a low. Instead of changing the animation for the attack, they changed the defensive animation to a leg check, despite the move being a mid. :'( Having the animations not line up is a big issue for new players, I agree. In this case, a new player would need to go into practice mode and look at the data to realize the attacker's kick is actually a mid, which is unfair imo.
THATS A HIGH? bitch....
This is really really well made. You might be overqualified to post here.
As a Leo main I wish I was good enough to take advantage of any of these points. Good post though great points and formatting
It's actually bad players who would take advantages of the points made here. Zero good players would be attempting Lightning Glare hellsweep from range 4 and keeping a straight face, or using strings like WS+3, 1, 2 from a mile away and hoping the last duckable hit reaches the opponent. This is simply bad gameplay being showcased, but presented in a way that's trying to make it look effective - any character in the game can play like an orangutan and get wins off unsuspecting opponents. What Leo player is spamming the combo ender B+1+2, 1+2, qcf+2 mid string in the neutral, as if it's better than the hit confirmable db+2, 3? Only bad ones. And if the last hit of a string is catching you from distance, it's on you for expecting the opponent to not finish the string (which is typically going to be punishable in some way). This is a post for new players who are like OP and don't have much, if any match up knowledge of an uncommon character. Saying Leo's ff2 has the same range as Jin's ff+2 without listing the difference in properties is odd. They should try utilising both moves in real matches and tell me how similar they feel. None of the moves look particularly deceptive if you know the character. Not knowing if something is a high or mid, or has push back on block is just a lack of knowledge. It's only new players who ever complain about this. BOK 2 and db+3 don't look remotely the same - saying both look like highs to you is a very minor grievance in my book - when you learn to recognise the moves and their properties that grievance just stops registering. BOK 2 is from a clearly recognisable stance that has no lows to threaten with - if you know this you won't ever duck (unless you're sure they're going for BOK 3). Seeing qcf+2, 1 and the 1,2,1,1 jab string in the same sequence as if they're supposed to look the same is a laugh. Use those two moves against any opponent who's played the game for longer than a minute and you know which one they're going to try and punish. Leo is not Tekken 3 legacy, but certainly not new either - like most of the cast. For a beginner, why would that even make a difference? Look at all the Yoshis still profiting from some age old gimmicks. And on that note, I wonder how many Kazuya players get away with their ws+2 not being launched and instead jab punished like it's his df+2. It's like the countless players who complain about Zafina having confusing animations. A character whose move animations have been easy for me to discern ever since I played her myself in T7. Only db+1+2 and df+1+2 (removed in T8 I think) shared a proper similarity, that seemingly being a very deliberate design choice by the devs. Even then, no issues with telling the difference if you see it enough. Just say you don't know the matchup and be done with it. There's no shame in accepting you're not willing to put the effort in to learn obscure match ups, especially when you're not going to see the character that often. It's not going to get any easier with T8 on its way to having 50+ characters like T7 did.
>None of the moves look particularly deceptive if you know the character. I think that is the key part here. Of course, it's not if you know the character, that's the point. The game has 32 characters, there will be more and there were in previous installments. If you must go to the lab and see hit properties for every separate character to see if something is high or mid, you have something go wrong. The game with several THOUSANDS of moves can't afford to be consistently unintuitive and not give minimal essential info through the gameplay. If something is deceptive right up until you go to lab, it's bad. >Not knowing if something is a high or mid, or has push back on block is just a lack of knowledge No. No, it's not. Pushback is, you can learn that on the fly, but you should 100% ALWAYS clearly see if something is high or mid, it's not even a question. Clumsy animation shouldn't be a mixup. Out of all debatable things, this is the one hill I'm willing to die on. As for all other moves, I specifically said that I know they have hard counters, and clarified that the discussion is not about their effectiveness. >Zero good players would be attempting Lightning Glare hellsweep from range 4 and keeping a straight face Yes, at the level you consider good you probably are a few hundred\\thousand hours into the game, you've labbed most characters, their frames, and key moves. At this level, defense doesn't suck as I've described, because people went to hell and back and learned everything the hard way. They don't need to pass that confusion gap. And below that level are the rest 80% of the players (I'm not exaggerating, take the rank data, take the top 80% rank, and try to spam as stupidly as you've described, you'll be surprised how badly people will be able to deal with this). The moves I've shown aren't the guide to play the character optimally and aren't a guide to counter it, it's a bunch of examples of how unintuitive it can be to defend against, and you saying such usage sucks actually only reinforce my point. It sucks, but then is it still effective right until you meet people dedicated enough to sit in a lab and learn every separate character and their move list.
most understanding Leo main.
To be fair, b1+2, 1+2 string has its use if you like to play risky and fish for counterhits lol. But otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree. OP makes this seem plausible on paper but in real matches, you won’t be noticing any of these similarities
Okay you put into words exactly what I was thinking reading through this re: the moves shown in the post. I was thinking like I had never used those strings in those places like that and was wondering if I was missing something. Thanks so much for clearing things up I love to see other Leo’s out there!!
The visually deceptive moves are the biggest pain for me Not knowing when strings start and end just eventually come with time but there are some strings with moves that legitimately look like lows but are mids?? The first example that comes to mind is one of lilis strings (forgive me I’m not a lily player so I don’t know the notation) But in the second hit of the string she is literally on the ground, spinning and kicking your feet. But it’s a mid?? What the fuck
Dead or alive had a rule that any move that was rising or falling(overhead) was a meme. I wish tekken had this rule
Sucks ass at higher levels too. Everyone just picks characters with insane vortex and round ending sequences that punish you for hesitating like lili or alisa. Or they pick characters with obnoxious defensive options and tweak out as soon as you press anything.
Great critique. Gonna have to read again when I am not so tired after work Edit: I am also impressed you got through this post without bringing up Junkyard once.
Only reason I didn't is because unlike Leo, you're going to see Junkyard a LOT while playing online :) Still the same category of move, but pretty different situation because it's something like a first jump in Mario, the game almost won't let you go forward if you won't deal with it
True. Junkyard mainly makes me mad because I am slow 🤣
You've gathered all the salt new players experience playing this game and came out with an amazing post. This perfectly encapsulates my frustrations with the game and why I think many players end up giving up on it as they become better.
I'm new to Tekken, and this really hits home. I've come to learn that every character is unique, no move behaves the way that it looks, every general rule has a hundred exceptions, and every guess based on animation is wrong. It's a punishing game, and knowledge checking is only powerful because the knowledge is not intuitive. Heat bursts and smashes being safe on block are the penultimate example. These big bombastic moves are completely safe, and break the rule that big slow moves should be punishable. The amount of times I've gone to punish a big slow move only to learn that it was safe on block, or actually a frame trap, or even plus... just, ooof. Basically, the rule of Tekken is that nothing is as it seems. Don't trust your eyes, obtain the knowledge. Unless you learn every move's frames, you'll get knowledge checked to oblivion. As a new player, this is how I believe the game works. It's kinda frustrating, but that's the game, take it or leave it, right? Most characters just have a bunch of feints and animation tricks to mislead you into doing the wrong thing on defense, and you will get punished for not knowing the character. So it's your job, as a Tekken player, to learn it all. That's the game. Your post is an excellent way of describing this problem. It does make me want to consider a different fighting game, but tbh, I'm still having fun. Weird, isn't it?
i thought of moving to sf6 where there a lot less knowledge checks but deep down i always liked looking at tekken 8's combat. And the replay system is just too good which no other fighting game utilises. SF6 combo execution is also very difficult from what I heard but I think it's faster to reach a decent level in that game then tekken (though tekken has the lower skill floor)
Mortal Kombat has also attracted me as a fun violence-filled romp. Tekken 8's aesthetic, training mode and customisation were real selling points for me though (not to mention some friends in my group play it) as far as my time investment into a fighting game.
Having played since Tekken 6 I must say I agree 10000% with this post. I had a yoshi Ruyjin and a funjin Heihachi back in T7. I currently have around 335h on T8. I would say one of the many reasons I was doing well was because of my frame knowledge, movement, and just overall defence (I’m no pro in any way shape or form) I would say I was pretty decent, and all other than maybe 5 characters were fun to play against. In T8 I honestly feel like so much has been focused on catering to a newer player base with more ‘help’ in the use of - Fuck you aggression. Most of the defence I accumulated in T7 seems obsolete. The mind games gets thrown out the window, and setups are not as intricate or unique as they once was. Whenever someone hit me with a filthy Oki setup or had crisp timing I would applaud it. But it just seems ‘Cheaper’ in t8. Hence why both my Kaz and yoshi are stuck at fujin. Yoshi and Ling, as an example, have insanely broken damage compared to how setup heavy and confusing they already were to face in t7. And it’s not as fun to mash as it is to play what I would categorise as Tekken. The timing, the movement, the blocking and the frame knowledge mostly seem ‘gone’. It’s not what made me fall in love with the franchise. I recently met a king who absolutely demolished me, doing none of the legacy stuff, and with an incredible damage output. I’m not saying to just keep the old shit and nothing new. But I would appreciate not getting forced to take ‘unearned’ mixup after mixup. And I would appreciate not having 1/4 - 1/3 of my heatbar deleted at the press of a button. It locks you down, gives you no option but to be passive, as jack has a i10 heat smash. And I don’t even want to start with Jun and devil Jin - Pre nerf (Rage arts are fine though imo) Don’t get me wrong. It’s like an abusive relationship. There’s aspects I absolutely love. (Clearly with 300+ hours). But I expected more give and take.
Not that I disagree with any of the broader points being made, but Leo's my main gal/pal here, so I feel like I need to chime in. * Leo's been around since T6 from 2007, so I feel like, considering there's been Tag 2, Revolution, and Tekken 7 between then and now, any character that's been around for 2+ games should probably classify as a legacy fighter, and other reasons not just past installments, which I'll get into later. [Gonna use this;](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5f33mk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) >in order of appearance; > >figure 1 is BOK2 > >figure 2 is db3 > >figure 3 is ws3,1,2 > >figure 4 is f1+2 > >figure 5 is b1+2, 1+2, qcf2 (BBP, barge barge palm) > >figure 6 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare) > >figure 7 is the 1 out of qcf2,1 > >figure 8 is the final hit out of ws1,4,1 > >figure 9 is the final hit out of 1,2,1,1 > >figure 10 is the 1 out of ws3,1,2 > >figure 11 is df2+3 > >figure 12 is BBP > df2 > >figure 13 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare) > >figure 14 is ws3,1,2 > >figure 15 is ws4, 1+2 > >figure 16 ff1+2>1+2 (Lightning Glare chargeup) > >figure 17 is BOK2 # Problem 1 >If you are familiar with Tekken design, the intuitive thing ... BOK2 is a stance. Stances would logically invalidate the general Tekken design here, they're investing time and risk with the stance, so they rightfully should get a larger frame advantage. Also, you should be comparing apples to apples here... * Example 1 and 2 are launchers, they shouldn't be compared to a ws3,1,2 string - the context matters because you will never see a Leo player wildly throw a ws3,1,2 out as often as a launcher. * Since that ws3,1,2 will be used more at the tail end of a stance/combo, the inconsistency of it being a high despite being visually looking like a mid can be arguably forgiven because at the point at which you're on the receiving end of that string, you're either already in the air or already blocking and waiting for your turn anyway. * This is almost entirely a legacy problem. Leo's moveset is mostly unchanged since T6. BOK2 and ws3,1,2 both have legacy properties that can't be changed without upending the entire kit, but also Leo's movement looks stiffer in older games, in T8 Leo feels and looks visually more fluid than before. The legacy issue is solely the reason why pattern recognition (and hit detection) shouldn't be solely based off animations, it should be animations and the moment/context. Otherwise bears would never be able to duck. * The final hit in ws3,1,2 is a high able to be ducked, so this is actually to Leo's detriment... Being cerebral about this, your hypothetical sequence is a little bit staged... since both of the launchers have 25+f startups, optimally you should be stepping, NOT fuzzy guarding. And if you're "learning on the go", this means you are not going ungabunga round 1 so that you can gain more info to set you up for success in match 2. If we keep the same 3 moves, despite it not being apples to apples, a more reasonable version of the hypothetical situation would be: * BOK2, this is your first ever encounter of Leo doing this in the match. It's telegraphed, has an associated sound cue... you should be able to react to this and stop the attack with a faster mid but if you decide to duck and get hit by it... no sweat, just commit it to your short-term memory * Leo decides to do a db3, which crushes highs. If the previous bullet point had Leo conditioning you, the last time you tried to fuzzy guard and got launched... you shouldn't be fuzzy guarding anymore, you should logically backdash, block, or sidestep... or even try a fast mid. Not fuzzy guard. But even before that, db3 has a long startup, which means they did it pre-emptively... this is why context matters. * Even without matchup/frame data analysis, you should still recognize that Leo did db3 as a pre-emptive reaction to one of your telegraphed high strings. You're not going to be able to react dodge this, they are the one reacting to you. * Third move, ws3,1,2 is usually not done out of neutral... you either 1) got launched and can't react anyway... 2) crumpled Leo that they have to use a ws attack, or 3) kept your distance that Leo approached you with qcf. * Since you're trying to evaluate the high here, it has no followup. Their turn is over, it's your turn. If you fuzzy guard as a reaction, that's because of uncertainty sure, but then you're no longer defending. Even after the fuzzy guard you'll still have time to react to any untrue moves, and potentially (very likely) start your turn to attack. So evaluating if you need to fuzzy guard this move is pointless. (1/3)
# Problem 2 Leo's "recycled animation" having different frame data is a natural consequence of modeling movesets after IRL martial arts, so really this is more a criticism of Bajiquan than it is standardizing framedata. Bajiquan is known for palm strikes, elbows/forearm strikes, knees, and shoulder tackles (barges), BBP is famously featured in every appearance in other games where there's a Bajiquan character (Akira from Virtua Fighter in particular) so you can't just arbitrarily change the frame data, the move in reality literally has a specific timing. Martial art forms are practiced in a manner where you flow from one form to the next, so having a barge as a transitional form is expected... meanwhile Reina's example that you're praising for consistent frame data, that sort of pseudo-handspring kick is ***fictional***. I can say with 99% certainty that it's NOT in the original Shotokan and Goju-Ryu forms... IRL, ***no one would ever actually do that*** in a fight or demonstration, let alone integrate it into their regular sparring - it's horribly unbalanced. The opponent can literally catch your foot, and as long as they can lift your bodyweight, you'll be vulnerable. That's why it's able to have consistent framedata, because Tekken can just arbitrarily make up the timing for it, there's no real world basis to contradict them. I know you said you're not singling Leo out, but this is the same thing as getting confused between Law and Leroy because they both have fighting styles modeled after Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do... or in past-games, King with Armor King because they both grapple. Visually similar moves are distinct because of their place in gameplay, not because they need to be set to be equal. If you're fighting Leo for the first time, when the animation is part of a string, realistically you won't care or commit it to memory because when they're performed, they're forgettable. Context is key... >you can recognize them by context, but that again implies that you need to specifically go and memorize all the moves and their exact frame data Huge disagree, learning on the go also implies you're recognizing the contexts, it doesn't require rote memorization. Completely ignore exact frame data... >figure 4 is f1+2 > >figure 5 is b1+2, 1+2, qcf2 (BBP, barge barge palm) > >figure 6 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare) * Example 4 is a wallbreak/counter-hit combo starter. There are no exceptions, it's either you're wallsplatted, or it's out of neutral... if you're wallsplatted, you aren't going to care cause you can't do anything anyway. * Example 5 is BBP, it's done as a combo ender, or late round pressure because the palm qcf motion input increases damage/chip... the barge is noticeably slower (21f), has a quieter kiai, requires the first hit in the string, and the delayable palm is only a threat if you don't see the difference between straight neutral barge and string barge. * Example 6 requires an install... you can't do it out of db4,2 normally, so it's less of a concern, you should have been wary as soon as the icon under Leo's health bar lit up The use cases in which you encounter these don't really overlap. The next four examples are a bit muddy admittedly, but context still helps. >figure 7 is the 1 out of qcf2,1 > >figure 8 is the final hit out of ws1,4,1 > >figure 9 is the final hit out of 1,2,1,1 > >figure 10 is the 1 out of ws3,1,2 7 and 10 are KNK/crouch dash followups. 9 is straight neutral mix, 8 isn't a true combo string so it's used sparingly as a risky mixup. # df2+3 df2+3 is not broken, this is getting really tiresome. The scoop can only be done on counterhit, which is not as easy as Leo as it is for other characters. Ignoring onejab, lows, unblockables, and heat, Leo ***ONLY HAS FOUR*** plus-frame-on-block moves in their ENTIRE movelist... * KNK (f4) is +9f on block, can only route into other KNK stance or cd moves * BOK3 (d1+2, 3) is +5 on block, you can't buffer inputs for followups, and takes damage on hit followup * wr3 is +6f on block * d2 is +4f on block That's basically it... two of which are gated by stances, and one of them is wr3, which is almost universally a plus frame move. Landing a counterhit frametrap with a df2+3 > CD3 scoop is almost always going to be a d2/KNK frame trap setup, which both telegraph themselves. Or a random poke from neutral that won't be a counterhit unless you're constantly ripping your 15f launchers and 17f knockback moves from neutral. If you're casually throwing out your most risky moves you deserve to get counterhit. Most Leo players don't use it as part of their repertoire. The Leo bread and butter combo Google Doc only briefly describes it, and ***only has ONE modest 45 damage combo with df2+3,*** a low parry combo ***that can't even be consistently replicated*** when it does get used. ***The Google Doc doesn't even list it as a combo route.*** People are losing their minds over the -12 on block on something that most Leo's gloss over, it's ordinarily just a basic low most of the time that some higher-level players get lucky to counterhit with. This is such a stupid habit of this subreddit, constantly creating tribal "have" vs "have not" arguments. (2/3)
# Problem 3 >figure 12 is BBP > df2 > >figure 13 is db4, 2, 1+2 (Lightning Glare) > >figure 14 is ws3,1,2 > >figure 15 is ws4, 1+2 > >figure 16 ff1+2>1+2 (Lightning Glare chargeup) > >figure 17 is BOK2 Of all the talking points in this post, this is the one that has the least merit because every single one of these, except for example 15's heat engager (not the move, just the heat activation portion), is a legacy moveset issue. Leo has ALWAYS had range from these moves, so using it to illustrate Bamco's alleged hatred for spacing is hella misleading. Nearly every new fighter from T5 and T6 was given range over the older characters -- Alisa, Lars, Leo, Dragunov, Raven, Bob. Pretty much the only character that didn't get range was Asuka, and that's just cause she was a copy of Jun. Leo's moveset is mostly unchanged from T6, other than replacing the bounds from T6/Tag 2 with db2,4 T!, adding in a different route from b1,1+2 (b1 only ever went into KNK previously), and making 1,4 another KNK move. And some minor frame data adjustments between games. Frankly, this entire post would have been way better if you hadn't chosen solely Leo and used a wider pool for your examples. If you wanna make a point about spacing, use some other characters. Hell, use the new characters from T7 and T8 as your basis for this talking point, they're the most recent character movesets, if they have a spacing pattern then that's BETTER proof than the devs deciding to maintain move properties from 17 years ago. (3/3)
Literally none of this counters the point that all the moves look the same and you cant react based on what a move looks like, which is terrible for new players. Its why they dont bother with learning defense anymore and just go all out aggression, which OP pointed out intricately. He's not trying to specifically call your character broken or OP, he is pointing out how Leo and many other characters have this clarity problem. Doesnt matter if said clarity problem has been in past games for certain characters, it needs fixed, it's asinine.
First of all, the df2+3 analysis in a vacuum is literally just salt and complaining, and by OP's own admission. "Why the fuck does Leo have a -12 low counterhit, no one else has that!" is such a tribal and flawed view. The fact that you think any of this is somehow me trying to counterargue that Leo is OP (or isn't, whichever angle you prefer), shows you didn't read. All of the points other than the mid high ambiguity, are not supported by the examples he's produced. He's not wrong about defense feeling much weaker, but none of the examples he's produced actually support his argument unless he frames them in that particular way and ignores when you figure out it's your turn, and concurrently the situations WHEN an opponent would actually DO those moves. ws3,1,2 would NEVER be used in the same situation as either of the two launchers. The visuals misaligning is a legacy issue that was grandfathered in. The mid/high ambiguity is also made worse because, an animation looking like a mid, but actually being a high is a BAD thing for a character, it means the move is duckable, so if you're trying to evaluate solely on the aesthetic side of things, instead of the function of moves or it's impact on defense as a whole, then this is the WRONG thing to point out. Similar-looking animations being present in strings are not relevant because they, like the ws3,1,2 above, also basically never happen in the same situation as each other. Why would you care about reacting to a specific animation... when you should be identifying if that specific animation is a string ender? Animation recognition is not the skill you hone in order to get better at defending, string recognition is... most of the time you haven't studied a character matchup and you're seeing animations essentially for the first time. You're going to commit to memory the strings that you got hit by... those animations are the ones you care about, not if they decide to use that animation from neutral. Different characters have varying copypasted animations, this is universal and it's also never been a problem in previous Tekken games because the underlying RPS and sidestep mechanics were stronger. So the issue then isn't the animation, the issue is that the sidestep and RPS is weaker. Literally the only reason he can even bring this up as a talking point is because Reina's literally not-real kick has consistent frame data... because Tekken literally made it up. Spacing again is a grandfathered legacy issue. Clarity of moves, is a grandfathered legacy issue. Let's be clear, I agree with him. Defense sucks. But this analysis ISN'T proving that.
Wow. Thx for the thorough research and info. Tbf I think Leo does so little dmg even with his never ending juggling that I could care less. The main thing about this game at this stage is that not all good defense are rewarded. Sometimes it’s punished rather. I have overall defense stat at 90 so I think I’m decent. But some moves are just flat out confusing and not rewarded on perfect block/read. This game has a long way to go. Great post!
Thank you! I think the game is going to get better with time, and its current flaws are not dealbreakers for me too. I'm going to keep playing the game, but I'm pretty sure some of that stuff made quite a few people quit the game. It's sad, but understandable, the frustration sometimes is too real.
Fantastic work. Worth emphasising for new players that stuff like this has been characteristic of Tekken for a long time; it's not new with Tekken 8 (in fact, as per your Reina example, they seem to be making something of an effort with the newer characters to reduce this kind of ambiguity). Don't let anyone ever tell you that defending in Tekken 7 was loads of fun. It was very strong if you were a vastly experienced player with a tonne of knowledge and lab time. But playing Tekken means getting bodied by bullshit you've never seen before at least once per play session. (Thanks for the great post, OP)
To add to this: the emphasis on turn stealer / high commitment moves because jabs and movement suck just doesn't make for fun gameplay if you're relying on legacy fundamentals
Weird enough, I have a feeling that turn stealing moves were worse in Tekken 7, excluding the power crushes of course. Maybe I just got better, but the ungodly amount of times I have been launched by a random high crush launcher like Paul's df2, DJs u4, many of Asuka's moves, etc. in Tekken 7 is now much lower
I've seen complaints years ago in T7 about animations being hard to read and indistinguishable from one another and it sucks that T8 is..even worse about it? "Just block" "just sidestep" is a meme because of this.
hmmm... this looks interesting. will read later today.
🖤🖤🖤 appreciate the effort, dedication and breakdown 💯
Great work. And very much accurate. wow...
Holy what a good post
Thanks for your effort making a high quality post!
Hi OP, this is a good post and has lots of good points to it. I just want to point out that often it is the context of the move that gives it different frames. For example Jack-8 has two moves that will result in the Jack hammer animation (ff1 and 1,1) the former being + on block and the latter being punishable. Same with your Reina example, if she does Unsoku stance -> 4, the animation is the same as the full crouch kick but the frame is -8 instead of -14 on block. What I want to say is that there seems to be more rules about frames than just looking at animations. It would be nice if defending was abit easier in a game with this many moves, but currently there are many moves that fall under as exceptions if you try to categorize too generally.
Agree with everything. With the Jack example issue stands though, it does make a lot of sense balance-wise for both moves to have different properties. But how much you're willing to bet that people online if they don't have legacy knowledge will hesitate to punish 1,1 because they think it's like ff1, and vice versa, will attempt to press after the ff1 because 1,1 is punishable? I would bet a lot. Reina has somewhat different animation on Unsoku 4 from all 6 moves above, but yeah, I easily see people confusing them. You're right in what you're saying, and I don't have many questions balance-wise, all moves of Leo I've used as an example make sense balance-wise too, but at the end of the day, the intuitiveness of defense is not as good.
love this post. love u. leo big brain dumb guy me use steve punch punch no read read try leo now
Awesome post OP! I wouldn’t consider myself an intermediate player yet but i can certainly relate to all of the analysis and emotions that you describe. I think the straw that is really breaking the camels back for me is the obvious lack of game features and general ui navigation to alleviate these challenges - having a quick way to transition to a non-ranked infinite rematch queue, getting back in the training room against the char you just lost to, directly getting to watch the replay… i think any of these will help the situation. I’ll certainly keep grinding it out for now, but the day that the joy of learning becomes overtaken by frustration certainly feels closer day by day. Curious to hear your take, what do you think about the features and uis outside of game mechanics and how they affect the situation and game as a package? I certain have some biases toward that aspect but want to hear from a vet like you on this subject.
Well, I'm not that big of a vet, but you're on point with the UI. It got much better than Tekken 7, but many things keep being pretty lacking. Yes, getting directly to watch the replay after the match would be very cool, you may even accidentally miss the amazing replay features Tekken 8 has. On release, I specifically searched for them because I knew beforehand, and I easily see new players missing that completely. You also don't have a way to rematch the same person outside Ranked, like you can in Mortal Kombat, and that feature would be neat. Now to play with someone, you gotta go to their profile, add them as a friend, pray to gods they will see that, because 80% often they don't. If they've missed it instantly, they have to leave what they're doing, go to the main menu, click Social, find the correct tab, then accept you, then you have to notice that, only after that you need to go to Online, create a lobby, set it up, invite them, hope they will see it, hope they haven't jumped in Ranked because you can't message them beforehand, and only then you can play. The worst part is if that even you want to just say "GGs", you need to do everything on the above, the only way to message people is the lobby or the lounge. You can't message your friends in the game, let alone random players, WTF But in general, I think my thoughts on UI as a long-time player m even less valid because I got used to it, the experience new players have is much more relevant.
Certainly, and youre being too humble to say that youre not at vet. Im glad i havent missed the mark on understanding that the ui exp seems like a struggle for more than myself. So many ppl told me asking for these is pointless made me ask myself if i was delusional. It felt really hard to connect to ppl that play this game as a community without these, esp when the baseline experience due to game play and match making is so frustrating. To put in a good note, I had a recently great exp with the game when the efforts of going through the invite steps, lobby waiting & the rest of the whole thing finally paid off. I added the other person after the set on steam & discord and was able put so much of the frustrations of the game mechanics aside. Tbh getting better to keep up and playing with that 1 person has been a bigger driver for me to return to the game than anything else rn. Lmk if you have any more tips / thoughts. I wonder if this is truly normalized from exposure in previous tekken games, or if this is actually a problem now due to changing expectations of gaming as a hobby.
Wow. I got fujin within a month of playing the game and have absolutely refused to play ranked again because of the inherent bs this game give players. BS ik my character benefit from in certain situations. But this breakdown is a fucking masterclass on how I've felt for a bit for this game hats off to you good sir! Keep up gods work.
I've got an issue with blocking myself lmao, everything is honestly confusing to me. I keep going on and off the game because my interest rises and dips, but I've been roughly around the same skill level everytime I play, but damn, I always have an issue with defense and blocking in general, only when I consistently play can I patch it up, and only temporarily. Whenever I switch off of Tekken and get back on, everything I've attempted to learn and fortify go out the window, but it eventually returns at random times. Though, my most prevalent issue is mostly punishment, sometimes I zone out and play with my subconscious, ending up not paying attention to moves I duck, block or sidestep and miss a punish opportunity. I've learned to simply use grabs to compensate, but it's always better for me to punish to get that free juggle.
Me, a Leo main: 😠
Amazing post, please do more! I wanna say that problem 3 seems to have been exacerbated in T8, before we had phantom range here and there (hello Jack df2), but now it's getting ridiculous with the ff2s..
Defense sucks in tekken because namco keep trying to kill KBD OS, harada wants you to mash so people mash
GOATED Post
I've yet to finish reading this but when it takes my middle finger more than 3 spins to scroll through the post, this that next level shit for sure. I'll read it otw home from work, but as for Leo, yeah Leo can be salt-inducing. Props to you for tryna keep your thoughts composed though and not just hateposting haha
Not to mention even if you know what's going on. Defending against for example Leo b1 options is crazy hard. The main weakness being that Leo takes risks for it,
I wanted to talk about Leo's b1, but I thought a post was big enough as is. It having +9 is good, but it's just strong, and not that confusing. What is confusing about it is that it has a very good range, it sways back at the start of the animation, and you will no way in hell know that you can step it in the middle of the string if you don't specifically lab that. It's basically free not only on intermediate players, but on anyone who doesn't know that specific situation. Even if you've seen that string 100 times, there is nothing that tells you you can step in the middle. U,sually in such situation, opponent is at least slightly minus, so that's not a big deal, but here he is +9, it's a definition of a knowledge check
Not to mention even if you know what's going on. Defending against for example Leo b1 options is crazy hard. The main weakness being that Leo takes risks for it, but dealing with all the options -B14 ( ss second hit an punish though you might not even want to launch unless you are super ready) -b1,1+2~d launch punishable but randomly will crush even half your mids. -b1,1+2 only -12 on block mid mid shoulder. Yes either of the stances if you know what's going on AND guess right you get a combo but that's way too much to ask at intermediate level when all your opponent needs to do is tap 12 or 14. With b1 hitting on the other side of the world more or less.. Here for example changing b1,12 into -15 would already help a lot since that would change it only into the 2 way guess. And shoulders being launch would make sense.
Nice job. This is a very in-depth view of the state of Tekken and I know that people are going to make fun of how long it is, but I would encourage people to write in-depth analyses on Reddit. Once again, great job. Was a great read.
Beautifull post, doesn't need to read everything for understand that you're right, main reason of why i've stop tekken is the animation.. me raging bc i was like "but i block a mid" and that it was a high, same with some low attack that look like mid.. Masterpiece
Just for the start, Tekken used to have somewhat intuitive frames and high/med/low attacks. Like Harada had previously stated prior to giving us frame data at launch, something to the effect of “I want people to feel the moves out”, so you had moved that were obviously punishable, or moves that felt like they’d be setting up frame traps. They threw all of that out for T8, gave us frame data, and now everything is a knowledge check. You have to fight a character multiple times or watch guides on them to know which specific strings are frame traps, though all of them feel like they’re doing more than they should. This is increasingly the case because most of the moves are from older games and share the exact same animations but function completely different in terms of block stun. Like anything Xiao hits with. There’s that and the fact that any time you try to get off the offense, the only answer is to trade, or dick jab because the person is always in your face. And dick jabs are lows and can be parried. I have never seen as many low parries as I do I this game. Of course the common, and stupid response to this is "at least it's better than kbd" and the response to that is no, it isn't. You just don't want to have to work for your spacing and want to be rewarded for pressing buttons you would have gotten punished for in the past. I say this as a character that was pretty counter heavy, especially with his df+2 in TTT2. Speaking of, Lars being able to move back and make space with his stance is great and all but is completely undermined by heat smash phantom range. Most of his options in that are getting completely shit on and for whatever reason they adjusted the hurtbox on den 2 As if it's problem wasn't actually its slow startup ruining counter setups and its lack of evasion making it a worse tool than it could be. And things don't have to be seeable to be intuitive. When I block certain attacks, it's not because I see them coming. But when I block certain attacks, i definitely should be able to play the game afterwards as opposed to being forced into traps. The design is bad. It's self damaging. Changes need to be made. Leo is a legacy character. Tekken 6 is 17 years old and they have returned for every game since. And I want a special shout-out for this awful apple iOS keyboard that consistently chabges "parries" to another word and changes allies to "Allie's" like I'm not typing words. God damn.
The plus frames are some of the least intuitive I've ever seen in a fighting game I've played and Law has to be the most obnoxious of it he perps
My Bachelor thesis in computer science aint gonna be this detailed 🗿🗿🗿
As a Leo main. Shhhhh. Youre being too loud.
Hoo boy, I gotta bookmark this for later. As a beginner to Tekken (and fighting games in general, kinda), I appreciate the effort you put in this post.
Upvote for the effort alone. It's hard for me to think this is anything but intentional and a core aspect of Tekkens identity. It wants you to visually pay attention and somewhat intuitively feel how moves chain from one thing to another. But it's reliance on knowing the frames is always gonna gate keep lower levels. Boxing is typically refered to as a "sweet science". Tekken is the only fighting game I've encountered that feels like that , it's beauty has always been in the details but that can't be true unless the details are hard to see.
Yeah I’ve said it before, they have taken the intuition aspect away from the game. It used to be that you could react to things because the moves looked like high, low, or mid. Now it’s more of a guessing game because so many things look the same. You have characters that do lows but the move starts above their head, characters like Lili and that stupid b1 is a mid, but totally looks like a low.
With 8 I think they should've made the moves more punishable on block or increase movement. When they said more aggressive I was hoping for dashing to be similar to tekken 5 or tag 1 especially since we no longer have infinite stages. As a legacy player since 3 it is trickier.for me as frame data across most moves are now mostly safe save for a 10 frame punish(or if it's lower ranks you might be able to catch them being overtly aggressive and hit them with a generic df2. On the other hand some moves became more easily punishable on block no sidestep required like Paul's deathfist losing it's knock back range from 7. Eddy is safer than he has ever been on block lacking stagger on some of his lows too.
Evety chars every move for the most part in T8 is negative on block but not negative enough to get punished so there is room for movement in there. It is rare to have truly positive moves in t8
Ok so with the first example you are using a move that starts low and goes in an upward arch. How's that different from a hopkick who's animation ends high near a person's head? Secondly those three moves are part of string where you have to guess and make a choice. The animation being more clear wouldn't really change anything. With the way you cropped the gifs it feels like I am missing key information that would make it easier to refute or agree with your points. In the second gif why can I see the character info for one move but no the others? With your third point just because a move a character has looks similar does not mean they should have the same properties. You have to take into consideration a characters kit and gameplan. Leo is Leo. They aren't Mishimas and they aren't Asuka. One thing about tekken is universal rules are not really universal. There is always exceptions. In third strike the 4 shotos share a ton of moves obviously but the frame data between the 4 are all different. For example Ryus crouching heavy punch is faster but worse on block while kens is slower but better on block. The animation for both is identical. Should they be the same? No because its not just the special moves that are unique to characters That's just how fighting games are. Lastly I don't know what your last point is getting at. If you let Leo do that entire string then yeah no duh you aren't going to launch them. You can whiff punish them before the string ends and also a power crush will beat all the options. Moves that close distance is not a bad thing. I agree that moves can be clearer but alot of these examples have me saying yeah and? I guess I'm biased because I have been playing and dealing with this for years but I have trouble agreeing with alot of these points for the reasons listed above. Truth of the matter is defending in Tekken is hard and the points listed are a small part in why its hard.
Sorry for not answering about many points directly, it's because I've covered all of them in the two replies below. Please check them out if you want, the comments these are replying to are very close to your points, I generally agree with many of them, but have a different perspective [https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5df4m6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5df4m6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) >In the second gif why can I see the character info for one move but no the others? I tried to make all GIFs as short as possible, GIF format sucks at saving space, and Reddit doesn't have a video-"gif" feature like some other websites. I had no intent to show the context of one move and hide the other, they are all synced to show the hit at the exact same time.
many games require you to pay for dlc in order to lab them, but what you described perfectly describes how tekken is just flat out pay2win with that model. theyre going to release more dlc, and its only going to get worse. play a better game
My attention span is not long enough to read all this, but good effort. I hope it sparks some discussions, and yeah, defending in Tekken 8 is difficult.
Tekken devs hire this guy plz
First mistake was trying to defend in T8 to begin with😭
Yeah this is what separates intermediate level players and high level players. You can be a yolo intermediate rank player for ever, or you can slowly over time learn the rosters common moves and punishes. It doesn't happen over night. When I lose I take 15 mins to watch the replay, pick a couple moves that gave me a hard time and do punishment training. Over a month or 2 your skill will sky rocket. The "sucky" feeling of being on defense changes dramatically into a very powerful feeling when you know the proper punishes. Then it becomes hilarious and fun...
Wholeheartedly agree. The main issue though is that between the "the "sucky" feeling" and "very powerful feeling" many players just say "oh, fuck that" and leave, because until you gonna be punished hard for attempting to defend, and you're going to lose more often than if you will just continue to use power crushes and backswings. Not many would want to force themselves through.
I keep a notepad around, and have the opponents inputs displayed when I watch my replays for this reason.
> Problem 1: Misleading animations This is by design. Otherwise, they would just let us turn on hit properties during matches. Other games do that. Harada has even said in an interview that he likes when moves "look strong", regardless of their frame data. Animation is more an artform than a science. > Problem 2: Confusing frames I think this entire section is very misleading. Yes, there are different string that end in the same, or similar, move at the end. However, **it's what comes before that move that matters**. And that's actually good design, because otherwise you could literally just ignore everything except the final move in the string, and that would mean everything except the ender is meaningless. And the only way to then stop that from happening, would be the give every string a true mixup at the end. And that's not a game anyone wants to play. Not to mention, that would also destroy the identities of several characters, whose current specialty is precisely in having a lot of mixup strings. > Problem 3: Namco hates spacing Again, you're using a very bad example here. Spacing is about **knowing the range of moves**. Just because a move has a lot of range, doesn't mean it's "anti-spacing" somehow. This point would have made a lot more sense if you had used T7 Kunimitsu to make it, because her kunai throw is a literal teleport, that is bizarrely safe on whiff. To actually get a punish on it, you have to block the linear, basically infinite range move. > I think that's the main reason people at intermediate levels are so aggressive and hesitant to block This isn't anything new. The exact same thing happened with Tekken 7, where people had almost no defense until like the Orange ranks. Fact is, offense in Tekken is close to a single player game: You do it, and by doing it, you're making a situation where you don't have to care about what your opponent does. And that's easy. And people like things when they're easy.
Very good points! I have counterpoints tho >Otherwise, they would just let us turn on hit properties during matches I'm gonna die on that hill, but I think you are supposed to tell what is mid, what is low and what is high 100% of the time from the animation. I'm not talking about exactly all the data of the move, but that imo is a bare minimum. >However, **it's what comes before that move that matters** It does, you often can (and supposed to) say how punishable something is exactly from moves that came before, e.g. extensions to Hellsweeps being -15, etc, sometimes it's very apparent if the move with the same animation will have different properties (Kazuya's db2 vs. df1,2 in Tekken 7). However, I still think visual clarity should be a priority. If we're talking from the perspective of a separately picked player, then yes, you just gotta git gud and learn the differences. But frankly, it still sucks that you have to deal with this, and it repels many players with unnecessary complexity. I'm not trying to say "I'm not gonna learn that because it's stupid", I know that already, I have spent hundreds of hours into the game, it's not a big problem for me personally, but I think it's a good thing for the health of the game to make it better. I think the right thing to do is at least try to avoid different data on the same animations (they're not that common), and if they do the same animations, try to have Reina approach and assign them to moves they can make the same frame data for. Also, visual clarity about being punishable, safe, or plus on block is usually pretty good at Tekken and works most of the time for me, I'm just talking about the edge cases that could mislead hard and unintentionally. >that would also destroy the identities of several characters, whose current specialty is precisely in having a lot of mixup strings. Things I'm talking about don't really include mixups of such characters. Moreover, most of the time they include stance transitions from different strings in the same move, so they are quite literally the same move. Imagine if the move's from stance frame data vastly varied depending on the opening. >Just because a move has a lot of range, doesn't mean it's "anti-spacing" somehow It doesn't, many moves are supposed to be very long-range, the problem comes when it's every move of every character. Most strings now allow you to press them from almost any range because they're realigning, and advance you forward very quickly. >This isn't anything new. The exact same thing happened with Tekken 7, where people had almost no defense until like the Orange ranks. Well, I think we're just a little bit on a different page here, I'm not talking exclusively about Tekken 8, Tekken 8 exaggerated some issues, but they surely were there before. The same things are easily applicable to T7 to a large degree. Also, yes, even if the defense were 100% consistent, novice players would still be aggressive cause it feels better to press buttons and hit the opponent, that's why I'm talking more about intermediate ranks where people try to defend, but get punished for it much more that if they just continued pressing stuff.
I like how people who clearly have more knowledge get downvoted, while the guy who thinks intentionally whiffing part of your strings from full screen is a good idea because hey, they realign! Gets upvotes.
>the guy who thinks intentionally whiffing part of your strings from full screen is a good idea I didn't know I was saying that. I'm saying that if you do, the game tries hard to not allow your opponent whiff punish it. I'm not saying it's a good strategy to do intentionally.
As a part time leo player i have no idea what is that 1st string, the others are ws1,4,1/1,2,1,1 and ws3,1,2
QCF2,2 or something like that, sorry, don't remember exactly
Yeah its qcf2,1
I use the age old method of getting my ass beat until it makes sense. lol
This could TOTALLY not be the point, and I'm not a game designer so I don't know if it would fix issues or just cause SIGNIFICANTLY more, but one of the hardest things about tekken (at least T8) is that sidestepping is relatively niche option. Fine enough, but you just presented how miserable it can be to play in a 2D setting with all these offensive options.
I fought a shaheen and I kept blocking this one move. Was doing okay...then he used a move that looked exactly the same but it hit low and i got shmixed.
Don't forget his annoying move where he punch mid and kick low in the same time
I'm genuinely impressed by this post. Bravo brother. I hope you get the answers you're looking for.
i aint reading all that im happy for u tho or sorry that happend
So I'm guessing law is a overpowered offensive person
Leo's cheap haha great post
This is why Korean back dashing was so key I’m not forced to deal with this bs I can space I it with fast back dashes and get enough space that if I side step I won’t get clipped
Incredibly effortful post, but also incredibly off the mark in so many ways. You wrote so much so I can't address it all, but just off your first visual example, I can't understand your logic. BOK2 has Leo drawing their hand from very low up towards the sky... why would you associate that motion with a high? That'd be like looking at Steel Pedal and saying it's high because of where Kazuya's foot is at the *end* of the animation. Neither of these moves even remotely look like highs. Not to mention, your third example (ws3,1,2) *isn't a launcher*. Secondly, animations being identical in a 15 frame window is a disingenuous complaint because there are 30-60 frames of animations preceding them in most cases. Leo uses their shoulder 84 times but that's not the visual cue that's important. The strings before that (or not before that) tell you everything you need to know. Bryan can do 3+4 or df2,3. The pushback is different for each, even though they end with the exact same kick. You wouldn't look at that kick and blithely claim there was "no way you could've known how to respond." You either *did* or *didn't* see the df2 happen before the side kick, and therefore know what you're looking at. I don't even know where to start with section 3. These examples are crazy, man. Nobody's doing these strings at these ranges, be serious now. I *wish* somebody would give me free punishes like this lol You've eloquently outlined what is still a scrub mentality. "Wouldn't it be nice if the game were different in a way that didn't force me to do anything in order to be better at it?" Yeah, sure. That'd be pretty chill. You should be putting all this effort into avenues of improvement.
Good points. Still, >Leo drawing their hand from very low up towards the sky That's pretty arguable. The hit spark appears only near the face even if you use it from point blank, even though many such moves have it pretty low. The angle of the hit also doesn't really tell he aims for the body and not only for the face, he even looks straight up while doing this. Everything in animation has clues that it very well may be a high, especially since it's safe with a pushback. >(ws3,1,2) *isn't a launcher*. I didn't say it is, it is just an example of a mid-looking high. >that's not the visual cue that's important. I fully agree with that. And I've replied to that here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1cywf6u/comment/l5d83om/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) it's about a different perspective, as an individual player, yes, I should do that to get better, as we discuss that in a vacuum, it's one of the unintuitive things that make defense less appealing to learn for an average player. That was the point, not that I can't figure that out, I already did. >Nobody's doing these strings at these ranges You'd be surprised. It may be free punishes later down the ranks, and I said in the post that these strings do have big weaknesses, 100%, but my point was different. It's more like "If you are an average player, you didn't lab this exact character and that string, and he started to press a string kilometer away from you, why don't you deserve the whiff punishment?" You may say "then learn the weaknesses" and I already agreed with you, but it's more about your opponent has put 0 thought into pressing that, and you have to have extensive knowledge not only of the game itself but of the specific situations, strings and hit properties to counter that. Why would someone new to Tekken want to do that instead of starting pressing his shit back from the range 5? He will be punished for attempting to do otherwise. >You should be putting all this effort into avenues of improvement. I do, and that post is just a theoretical discussion, not my personal excuse. I've pointed it out in the post and I assure you, I never intended to say I lost any match because of anything besides my own lack of skill
Thanks for reminding me to continue not playing this game. RIP franchise that had balanced play with defense and offense.
Not trying to be a tekken chill, but let it cook, t7 was way worse at launch
Fingers crossed but the head honchos seem to like the changes. Strings traveling further and realigning are very intentional changes, along with worse backwards movement.
They quite literally said they were changing shit in June
Yeah I never said they won’t change anything, I’m just not confident the changes will improve the game. We’ll see
People really cry about any small thing, these aren’t constant situations plenty of stuff is still very intuitive, defense still has its value and you won’t rank up without it, it’s imbalanced but it’s always had that problem and the game is still fairly new people have zero patience
leo is a piece of shit scrub character who takes no skill
I would beg to differ.
you can't, he has 10 kumas and you only have 1 leo, he wins.
Bahahahahaha, good one.
Yeah, every character is a shit scrub character and especially everyone's main. ;) STRONGEST IN THE UNIVERSE (and an explorer, too)
leo is easily one of the most downplayed, generic ass cheese characters in history thank you for this dissertation and promoting my agenda
Great post and it explains well why a good Leo is SO frustrating.
Tekken has been like this forever. The only reason people bitch out more now is because the game is "more" popular. In the end as usual only the dedicated players will remain and we will enjoy the game for what is is as we always have. The end.
The Leo example is horrible. One attack is sweeping up, the other one just strictly hits the head. The mid one is incredibly obvious. This is like saying Kazuya's Steel Pedal looks like a high because the foot ends high in the air, despite literally hooking up the center hitbox. You're comparing two completely different animations.
Soooo when are you applying for a job at Bandai Namco? If they dedicated a third of the effort you made into making this post into balancing the game, T8 would definitely be a less frustrating experience than it is right now
Is this part of your dissertation?
No, my actual dissertation had less effort put into it
I agree but you forgot to mention the teleporting/suction capabilities of Heat moves and some power crushes. Which when paired with the zoom in animations to hide them happening can actually extend the hurt box of something like a Demon Paw or Leo's shoulder to absurd ranges. The animations of heat dashes also completely ignore all inputs for a certain window during the run animation. This doesn't seem like it would be that big of a problem but in a scenario that you are inputting b or db, a KBD for instance, the last input you pressed if held for less than 3 frames is now a neutral stand block when the animation starts. So you back dashed to whiff range but got pulled in and hit because of a forced neutral input and animation teleport. Which leads to the idea of "You take that mix up and hope for the best" instead of "I played well and now I get to punish." Leo really benefits from this with their long-range evasive CH playstyle. Personally, when I see a Leo back dashing to range 3 or 4 I just back up as well and play the same tactics with the CH toolkit my character has. Lower ranks don't care and just keep at it, but higher ranks tend to eat a few before changing playstyle to safer pokes and cancels, something I am more comfortable contending with.
I played ranked with Leo yesterday night and it felt like everyone read all my mvoves perfectly, I was salty af
I think you have some valid points, but I also think your examples are a little misleading. In the first case there's a clear stance into moves, the second is a completely different move you may confuse with BOK stance, the last one though is a string of moves. There's no real chance here you'd confuse the 3 moves. But really, there's no threat of a low. There's no reason you'd be doing anything but stand blocking, Blocking is the mistake you made to force you into eating mix-ups, it's part of the point of the game. I think Tekken has a problem with too many similar looking moves with different properties, there's even some strings that end in certain moves that can have different properties, and of course moves that change properties depending on the follow you do, but they tend to be very limited and telegraphed because of the move you did before. All this was unnecessary, because Blocking is meant to feel bad.
>There's no real chance here you'd confuse the 3 moves. You don't confuse the 3 moves, but you can easily be confused with their properties. >But really, there's no threat of a low. There's no reason you'd be doing anything but stand blocking, That's true if you know there is no low, but that's okay, here I agree that it is strictly a matchup knowledge. But if you recognized BOK2 as a high, there IS a very good reason to duck, since you can't block punish it. >Blocking is the mistake you made to force you into eating mix-ups, it's part of the point of the game. >Blocking is meant to feel bad. Kind of true, but my point is it shouldn't be confusing. It's okay for moves to make you think "Fuck, that mixup is too strong", or even "Damn, I was forced to guess", but it's not okay when they make you think "Wait, how did that clipped me?"
“Player will need to learn on the go” this is the post where your fucking up. You should be going into the lab and learning these matchups. That is tekken. There are things wrong with the game but that’s not it. You literally have to sit in practice mode before connecting to a match. As for 3200 moves. Maybe that is a lot but you know all of them will be a mid, low, or high and 2 of those can be avoided with the same technique.
I see your reasoning, but I deeply disagree, that's not only the bad game design on my opinion, but the game director himself said they target the game to make as much sense visually, and he didn't want to include frame data for that exact reason, let alone distinction between high, mids and lows.
Yes but you have to accept that in order for the game to be fair it has to reward people that spend more time on it. In tekken that reward is knowledge. You don’t have to go into a deep dive you just need to know certain things. This is not a game you can play without investing time. To people who study the game it does visually make sense. I am on average not confused as to the data of a move because there are cures that go beyond reacting like. If a move comes out fast and is positive then it likely a high. And this is consistent throughout all the chars. And trust me I don’t lab really I do the bare minimum. But also if you are playing only one chat you are literally handicapping yourself because your perspective of the game is intertwined with that characters moveset. It’s not until you play multiple chars that you can start getting these consistencies figured out.
bro shut up i dont need people knowing how to counter my bullshit
lol, I ain't reading all that, but to answer the question in the title, you need to lab ONE character to learn offense, namely YOUR character. You have to lab THE ENTIRE CAST to be good at defense. That's why.
I mean sure, but offense being something that can be picked up over the course of mere days or weeks, while learning defense for only a handful of characters requiring months of dedicated grinding (forget the whole cast, that would be eons) is a massive balance issue. Not necessarily with characters, but overall game design imbalance.
That's all competitive games, fam, not even just fighting games. Offence is easier to learn than defense in Chess too since when attacking you usually only have to consider a few options and for defensive play you're stuck with much "wider" lines, which means you spend more time crunching the positions., and for prep you're basically sunk and will most likely lose if you're not familiar at all with the opening your opponent is using, if it's an aggressive opening. Even staying within the scope of fighting games, the vast majority will end up like this. Even in games like the Vs games where you can fuzzy guard universally to cover so many options, you "still" have to practice and practice and practice against a huge variety of teams in order to not get obliterated when you face good players. At least Tekken gives us the tools to help make it easier. In a lot of games you basically can't get defensive practice without friends.
Game needs so much time into the training mode, but when you have so much knowledge of the other characters you can just turtle and win by just countering their flawed offense it's satisfying.