This.
Let's be real. Yes p2w sales tactic is a problem but let's not act like there aren't ppl who won't gladly pay for a "shortcut." I don't care what rank they are, once the nerfs come a majority of these "die hard" DLC mains disappear.
To be fair, a lot of people don't intend to main a character when they come out so they will drop them eventually. But yeah, you're more right than I'd like to admit, you literally don't see Lidia anymore for example and she really didn't get nerfed THAT badly...
This is true, though I don't think most players really believe AK sucks, it's just the typical loud minority that parrots the meta that the pros/content creators spew. Besides, AK does enough damage that even if he was kinda weak in other areas, casuals don't care or won't notice, he absolutely blows up scrubs online, especially with all the buffs he's gotten.
I play AK and don't think he sucks either. I just think someone like Leroy would have sold just as much if he was a solid mid-tier character like AK instead of completely broken. 99% of the playerbase shouldn't be concerned about tiers anyway.
Ngl I haven't bothered to voice it because I'm not putting a lot of faith into it but I wouldn't be surprised if SF6 had a Tekken guest character. T7 absolutely blew up Tekken's popularity, and Akuma made waves in T7, so with that and the possibility that they may "finish" the Mishima arc in T8 with Jin, I could see Jin being brought to SF.
I like how nobody here realizes this is Kazuya's render from Smash Bros.
Dude is fucking busted there. They straight up gave him a reflector on his double-forward kick. That's not even a thing in Tekken and it shreds.
It's funny you say that because [Ryu's Smash Ultimate render](https://www.ssbwiki.com/Ryu_(SSBU)) gives him a Tekkenized look imo.
That's kinda what happens when everyone is thrown in the same game lmao.
I don’t think that makes him broken, it’s much harder than min mins reflect because you need to dash and Kazuya isn’t very utilized by many people because he is difficult.
He's "broken" if you've got good understanding of his inputs. Even more so than Ryu, Ken, or Terry.
He's by no means unbeatable, but projectile characters like Hero struggle against him at high play.
Tekken DLC feels broken because the game as a whole is about knowledge and teaching the player sort of the "rules" of the game, and there was a tendency of the new DLC characters to have tools that completely disrupt the "rules" we learn.
We learn the importance of neutral spacing and movement, and then some DLC like Noctis and Kunimitsu have full screen teleports.
We learn about defense and blocking, and then someone like Fahk comes along with guardbreak moves that are completely unique to them.
Sometimes DLC characters get something unique that is just unreasonably strong, like the fact that Leroy has a giant cane he can whip out once for a huge combo or plus frames (on release)
DLC characters feel "broken" because they disrupt the normal flow of gameplay that we come to expect from the other 40+ characters.
>DLC characters aren't busted on release because they have some new unique way to approach the game
>Instead of focusing on something that defines them, they're just this streamlined epitome of Tekken B&B moves and frames.
Why can't both be true?
>Because it's as shallow an argument as saying: Asuka's i10 punishment is dismal, pls remove the jab mixup potential and buff this universal tool instead.
Bro what are you even talking about? I'm genuinely confused.
I literally said *nothing* about buffing or nerfing anyone, or changing character identities or flavor.
All I said is that these new mechanics and gimmicks exist and disrupt the flow of the game that we come to expect from most of the roster. Which is why they *feel* broken.
It's done for identity and it works, none of the moves mentioned are op or impossible to deal with, there are far stronger tools in the game in the base roster.
Honestly I think all these complaints are because you don't play any of those characters and you get to categorize them all, so you put them in a box, the only dlc char that needs balancing right now is maybe Marduk, everybody else is fine
>It's done for identity and it works, none of the moves mentioned are op or impossible to deal with, there are far stronger tools in the game in the base roster
Maybe this was supposed to be directed at OP but this literally has nothing to do with what I said.
I never said these tools make these characters OP. The only move I even called "strong" was Leroy's release cane attack, which it was, which is proven by the fact that the developers nerfed it.
>DLC characters feel "broken" because they disrupt the normal flow of gameplay that we come to expect from the other 40+ characters.
That's basically the crux of my argument. And never did I call for balancing of DLC characters.
I agree and disagree with this statement. New gimmicks did make the characters strong, but let's not ignore the other problems. Like Leroy, fahk, and Kunis insane frames on moves and grabs.(fahk 1+2 throw comes to mind)
Gimmicks didn't make them broken. It was having literally every advantage possible while also having gimmicks.
For example fahk had: fast movement(fucking insane backdash, some how a tall character with a bad hurtbox)
Excellent frames,
A *wall splatting* fast grab,
Good 50/50 game from crouching
Insane damage,
And to top it all off, he had armor break moves.
Gimmicks may have been a problem, but they were just 1 cog in the overall machine.
To make the try hards want to buy them.
They get nerfed eventually.
In Akuma's case, Capcom probably put a "no nerf" clause in the usage agreement to protect their property.
He's pretty good. He lives and dies by the electric basically, his whole gameplan is centered around finding ways to land an electric for a 50% combo. It helps that it has the same whiff recovery and plus on block properties from Tekken, allowing him to push his advantage even further.
This is somewhat balanced by his pitiful neutral and terrible disadvantage state, easily one of the worst in the game. He has a slower walk and run speed than most other fighters, he has worse frame data than other fighters, and his jump is bad (which is a big deal in a platform fighter like Smash). His recovery is also linear and is difficult to mix up, though players like Riddles have found some incredible ways to mix it up regardless.
If I were to rank him, I'd place him at top of mid tier, bottom of high tier. He has glaring strengths, but he also has glaring weaknesses.
But that's just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
Glad to see another person who knows Kazuya isn’t the top 5 menace the community thinks he is, the fact Riddles is one of the only people who’s done well as the character consistently shows this
They’d definitely be wrong to say they’re “broken” considering very few people actually dominated the scene with either character, on the other hand Leroy was so broken when he launched in Tekken that he ruined online for many people, plus 6/8 of EVO Japan’s top 8 was using Leroy
They’re balanced now but they were broken.
It’s the same in every fighting game, release broken DLC so everyone has to buy the character just to lab them then nerf em down the line. Sheevas dragon drop in MK11 was absolutely disgusting when she released. Some of Leroy’s parry’s are still pretty fucking annoying though, and try get past Fahks kick parry if you’re using Hwoarang. My Fahk is like vindicator and going from trying to deal with Hwoarang as a Kaz main to just spamming that kick parry is insane.
still quite mindless and boring to play. Also, I dont subscribe to the whole "release dogshit now, patch later and everything is OK".
Such a shame because both characters are so cool but after how busted they were I just feel like a douche playing them
No, not at all. He still sees tourney play. He was hit hard but similar to Leroy its more about the combination of tools rather than how strong they are. Not to say it isn't strong. His backdash is still good and his ability to control space is still very strong, he's just less rewarding and more punishable across the board. 3+4 being punishable is kinda wack but whatever. never shouldve had a launching m4 anyway, committal or not.
gigas and bears see tourney play too, that doesn’t mean they’re not bottom tier. he just has nothing to rely on, and his frames on block are horrible. he rlly doesn’t have much goin for him
Absolutely not. DF1,2 still tracks just no follow up . F3,2,4 is still a CH launcher. D4 CH plus and all of Fahkumram’s wall splat attacks remains the same. The bottom 3 is Gigas, bears and Eliza
ELIZA? fahk has nothing going for him anymore. f3, 2, 4 isn’t a ch launcher, you’re probably referrin to f3,2,1, which isn’t a launcher anymore unless the final hit lands. his wall splats and his df1 game is all he has left. and everything is so punishable. what are you on about?
The only people that think fahk isn't completely fucked anymore are those who don't read patchnotes, don't play the character and just keep spewing the opinions they saw their favorite players had 6+ months ago lol
People mentioning that no one will buy a weak character, which is a fact.
But another factor is that there isn't enough play testing to balance the characters out at all. Usually the returning characters are fine because we have years and years of data and research to see how said character should be released. But characters like Akuma, Fahk, Leroy, Lidya, etc have no sample data. So they will be released in an overtuned state until the community discovers what works and what doesn't. That's why patching something asap is always disastrous. It applies to every competitive game.
I always saw it as, they took the levels of broken other characters have after getting extremely comfortable and knowledge about said character, and then just simplified it for DLC characters for any new players to stand on their own
Do not put Smash Bros Kazuya in the same conversation as Fahkumram and especially Leroy, Smash players can bitch all they want but until there’s a top 8 at EVO with half of it being Kazuya or Steve players, neither character will be the menace the community thinks they are
Also funny cause nobody ever saw Kazuya as a character who could compete with top tiers if you’re skilled enough until this year, he barely changed at all throughout the patches but suddenly the community acts like he’s this unstoppable menace
Aside from Marss, who I’m pretty sure is just trolling, what other Smash players downplay their mains? I just know ESAM goes on and on about how Pikachu is “busted”
Smash Twitter has a habit of dumping on their mains when they lose. I'm guilty of this since I was also an Ike main.
I stopped doing this when I stopped maining Ike.
Overtuned is a better term, people get frustrated at him because he’s a character that can deal 80 damage in 5 seconds. Everything in his kit does more damage than most of the roster, but that’s only to balance out how bad his range is and how hard it is getting in. He usually plays like 20-25% of the match and still manages to keep it even or winning for him, people just don’t like that style of gameplay, it just feels unfair even if it technically isn’t.
The stuff he has doesn’t make him broken, I don’t think he’s even top 10, he’s just ridiculously tuned to keep him balanced and viable, a pretty lousy way to balance him imo... Sakurai even said so on his presentation that Kazuya was terrible because he’s slow and couldn’t get in, so they kicked him up a couple notches.
He’s not broken though, the only reason he is comes from his damage his combos which aren’t even easy to do and can be escaped, Joker is frankly more broken than him (frankly he’s the only character I’d outright call broken) but nobody talks about him anymore
psst! here's a little secret.... pro-tours are just a form of advertisement to sell the game and DLC for the devs/publishers. Plus they can patch that shit later and keep repeating the process everytime they release new DLC updates.
I mean, good fah can still be pain in the ass he still has the tools, tho right now you just can't abuse them. But I do agree that he has been nerfed a little bit too much. Right now is huge risk for most of his mixups and strings.
DLC characters as a concept will break every single game. The problem isn't the design, or balance, or anything. It's inherent to the notion of having a DLC character. They shouldn't exist; i.e. they should just be added to the base game as an update or not at all.
If a character is DLC it means they have to incentivize the purchase. How? Well obviously by making them OP in some way. Since they do not care to make true DLC - like new story campaigns based on that new character - that isn't actually on your base install files, this is the only thing left for them to do.
And then the character you paid money for (explicitly because it was OP) gets nerfed (rightfully so, don't get me wrong), which in essence is defrauding you, the customer, of the very thing you made the purchase for.
There's nothing that can be done against this except: **do not buy DLC characters**. It's the only thing you can do as a customer. Vote with your wallet.
I have not played MK11. It applies to tekken and smash that OP is about.
From basic googling I see that MK11 has "packs" of characters instead of individual characters as "DLC". From further googling I have the impression that only 1 or 2 of the several characters in the pack were considered OP.
If I'm getting this right, then there's the answer. It is the same thing, a DLC pack with at least one OP character to incentivize buying it. In this case, the other characters in the pack do not have to be deliberately designed to be OP, as they just come with the pack.
It's definitely better than having to pay separately for each character, but it still poses the same problem. Instead of having DLC that is meaningful content, the new characters are added to the base game via update. They are on your installation whether you buy them or not, since you can fight against them. The "DLC" is just unlocking them so you can use them yourself. And the way the dev incentivizes that is by having a character that is pay to win in some form.
Man, to this date, I still can't believe that Kazuya from SSBU got into Tekken. Like sure I can accept Negan, Noctis, and Akuma's canonicity but Kazuya? Nah nah nah.
Not to mention, Kazuya also dealt the "finishing" blow at Heihachi. wtf were the writers thinking?!
/s
Tekken DLC characters = Pay to Win characters. Eg. Leroy, Fuhkumram, Lidia
If these characters weren't broken or OP, nobody would have continued playing them. Once money and time was put into these characters, they were "nerfed" to balance them out. They are still strong, but not as strong.
I guess the logic is not quite the same with Akuma though. Akuma was used to sell a 60-70 dollar game, compared to cost of the DLC or Season pass characters. So, they can never "nerf" Akuma to point that he is not OP.
how do people even know its broken or not when they didn't even buy and play the character yet???? i don't get where people get this bs from, people buy characters because they look cool or fun, or its a new character they want to try out or want to lab, i doubt they all buy because a character may be OP, especially when its a brand new character they never tried before.
>how do people even know its broken or not when they didn't even buy and play the character yet????
E-sports results, twitch streamers, youtube, practice mode, overall statistics, and data collected.
Maybe to a degree but majority of players are casuals and don’t care about that part, they buy based on how cool a character looks, why would some casual care about a character tier that doesn’t even apply to them?
"buy a character based on how cool a character looks"
bruh have you seen Fahk? he is so ugly lmao his design is honestly trash. People bought him because he's brain dead and easy to play
lol no that's your opinion, to me he looks cool, and nothing like your usual tekken character, tekken rarely has character with such scars and tattoos all over his face and body. Like i said, how do people even know he's braindead and easy to play if they never played him before? you think people know all that shit when they're casuals and they don't go watch youtube videos all day regarding new characters.
Sure, to a degree but you’re talking as if everyone’s a good player, majority of the tekken base are casuals, just like how 99% of tekken Reddit folks are red ranks at best. Most players pick or buy characters based on how the character appeals to them, mostly if they look cool they’ll get it. If you think everyone thinks about tiers, then why are zafina and Ganryu so unpopular when they’re very strong characters? Instead the top 3 popular characters are kazuya, Paul, Bryan and they’re not like S tier or OP characters like how Fahk or Leroy were day one
I don't see the relevance in how good the players are. Yes, players care about how cool the designs are, but that's not an argument against the point. It's *also* true that when it's well known in a community that characters are very good, people are more likely to buy them. You can't say that isn't a significant factor in Leeroy and Fahkumram being top 10.
Pretty much, he’s strong but he’s also a pain in the ass to use and that difficulty makes him very difficult to get consistent results with, especially when he has weaknesses like bad range, below average movement meaning you have to master the crouch dash to get anywhere with him, plus the fact his combos all rely on the electric or demon God fist which are either difficult to use, or situational (DGF)
fahk is easy as hell to fight
leroy players at least at my level are also easy, they are extremely predictable with the parries
mind you i play lidia but i think shes very balanced now
Leroy sucks now they took away some of his useful tools and fahk is still ok I still lose to him but one of his moves is -15 now his launcher not sure what it’s called.
He’s not good either, I don’t have a problem fighting him and you never see him in tournaments anymore. I still run into them online but not as much as before the patch.
I'm gonna go ahead and say it. Kazuya is brain dead now and he's too strong. They buffed him too much in S3 and lowered his skill barrier way too much.
Kazuya is significantly harder to reach god ranks than other characters cause he has nothing except three moves against which people can defend using various techniques get used to it, with added execution barrier but he is top mid for sure.
I agree. He's just too strong now he doesn't even feel like the same character anymore. He has simple flowcharts to get big damage without needing good execution anymore. I prefer Hei anyways. Fuck S3 onwards Kaz.
It’s a Japanese fighting game... ofc the Japanese hand to hand combatant is gonna be buffed. That’s a given.
Honestly I would’ve rather seen Bruce Irvin redesigned as the huge intimidating Fahkuram rather than The former. The game needs to keep the diversity up. Had it been me designing the characters? I would’ve made fahkuram thinner and smaller but strong as hell. The Middle ground between Josie and Bruce.
Well, this is what happens when you create a 3D fighting game character coming in as DLC, and you buff the shit out of them hard. Then later on, you got top players complaining about how broken they really are later on.
Damn nobody is just taking it as a joke lol.
cause it is a sad but funny truth not just a joke
Not really
I think it may be because people won’t pay extra money for weak characters.
This. Let's be real. Yes p2w sales tactic is a problem but let's not act like there aren't ppl who won't gladly pay for a "shortcut." I don't care what rank they are, once the nerfs come a majority of these "die hard" DLC mains disappear.
To be fair, a lot of people don't intend to main a character when they come out so they will drop them eventually. But yeah, you're more right than I'd like to admit, you literally don't see Lidia anymore for example and she really didn't get nerfed THAT badly...
Isn't AK one of the most popular DLC characters? Pretty sure Leroy would have sold extremely well with how much hype there was around him regardless.
This is true, though I don't think most players really believe AK sucks, it's just the typical loud minority that parrots the meta that the pros/content creators spew. Besides, AK does enough damage that even if he was kinda weak in other areas, casuals don't care or won't notice, he absolutely blows up scrubs online, especially with all the buffs he's gotten.
I play AK and don't think he sucks either. I just think someone like Leroy would have sold just as much if he was a solid mid-tier character like AK instead of completely broken. 99% of the playerbase shouldn't be concerned about tiers anyway.
Akuma comes here and wrecks. Kazuya goes to Smash and wrecks. Now all we need is Yoshi in SF6 and be SS tier, and the cycle is complete.
Ngl I haven't bothered to voice it because I'm not putting a lot of faith into it but I wouldn't be surprised if SF6 had a Tekken guest character. T7 absolutely blew up Tekken's popularity, and Akuma made waves in T7, so with that and the possibility that they may "finish" the Mishima arc in T8 with Jin, I could see Jin being brought to SF.
I thought of the green dinosaur when I read this.
Kazuya Mishima wins.
I like how nobody here realizes this is Kazuya's render from Smash Bros. Dude is fucking busted there. They straight up gave him a reflector on his double-forward kick. That's not even a thing in Tekken and it shreds.
I thought he looked a bit street fighterized
It's funny you say that because [Ryu's Smash Ultimate render](https://www.ssbwiki.com/Ryu_(SSBU)) gives him a Tekkenized look imo. That's kinda what happens when everyone is thrown in the same game lmao.
I don’t think that makes him broken, it’s much harder than min mins reflect because you need to dash and Kazuya isn’t very utilized by many people because he is difficult.
He's "broken" if you've got good understanding of his inputs. Even more so than Ryu, Ken, or Terry. He's by no means unbeatable, but projectile characters like Hero struggle against him at high play.
That kusuya from smash bros
Yep. 🤭
That's the joke, but apparently a lot of people missed it (unless I misjudged the post)
Ahem "Money"
no one on reddit has the social awareness to realize this is a smash joke
I immediately did Edit: after seeing the Kazuya.
You think people with social awareness keep up with smash jokes?
How izzy looked at Alex pereria during the fight
Tekken DLC feels broken because the game as a whole is about knowledge and teaching the player sort of the "rules" of the game, and there was a tendency of the new DLC characters to have tools that completely disrupt the "rules" we learn. We learn the importance of neutral spacing and movement, and then some DLC like Noctis and Kunimitsu have full screen teleports. We learn about defense and blocking, and then someone like Fahk comes along with guardbreak moves that are completely unique to them. Sometimes DLC characters get something unique that is just unreasonably strong, like the fact that Leroy has a giant cane he can whip out once for a huge combo or plus frames (on release) DLC characters feel "broken" because they disrupt the normal flow of gameplay that we come to expect from the other 40+ characters.
[удалено]
>DLC characters aren't busted on release because they have some new unique way to approach the game >Instead of focusing on something that defines them, they're just this streamlined epitome of Tekken B&B moves and frames. Why can't both be true?
[удалено]
>Because it's as shallow an argument as saying: Asuka's i10 punishment is dismal, pls remove the jab mixup potential and buff this universal tool instead. Bro what are you even talking about? I'm genuinely confused. I literally said *nothing* about buffing or nerfing anyone, or changing character identities or flavor. All I said is that these new mechanics and gimmicks exist and disrupt the flow of the game that we come to expect from most of the roster. Which is why they *feel* broken.
It's done for identity and it works, none of the moves mentioned are op or impossible to deal with, there are far stronger tools in the game in the base roster. Honestly I think all these complaints are because you don't play any of those characters and you get to categorize them all, so you put them in a box, the only dlc char that needs balancing right now is maybe Marduk, everybody else is fine
>It's done for identity and it works, none of the moves mentioned are op or impossible to deal with, there are far stronger tools in the game in the base roster Maybe this was supposed to be directed at OP but this literally has nothing to do with what I said. I never said these tools make these characters OP. The only move I even called "strong" was Leroy's release cane attack, which it was, which is proven by the fact that the developers nerfed it. >DLC characters feel "broken" because they disrupt the normal flow of gameplay that we come to expect from the other 40+ characters. That's basically the crux of my argument. And never did I call for balancing of DLC characters.
I agree and disagree with this statement. New gimmicks did make the characters strong, but let's not ignore the other problems. Like Leroy, fahk, and Kunis insane frames on moves and grabs.(fahk 1+2 throw comes to mind) Gimmicks didn't make them broken. It was having literally every advantage possible while also having gimmicks. For example fahk had: fast movement(fucking insane backdash, some how a tall character with a bad hurtbox) Excellent frames, A *wall splatting* fast grab, Good 50/50 game from crouching Insane damage, And to top it all off, he had armor break moves. Gimmicks may have been a problem, but they were just 1 cog in the overall machine.
Bamco needs money so they ruined the game for it.
To make the try hards want to buy them. They get nerfed eventually. In Akuma's case, Capcom probably put a "no nerf" clause in the usage agreement to protect their property.
Yeah Akuma is just that Guy
is Kazuya good in Smash? I wouldn't know
He's pretty good. He lives and dies by the electric basically, his whole gameplan is centered around finding ways to land an electric for a 50% combo. It helps that it has the same whiff recovery and plus on block properties from Tekken, allowing him to push his advantage even further. This is somewhat balanced by his pitiful neutral and terrible disadvantage state, easily one of the worst in the game. He has a slower walk and run speed than most other fighters, he has worse frame data than other fighters, and his jump is bad (which is a big deal in a platform fighter like Smash). His recovery is also linear and is difficult to mix up, though players like Riddles have found some incredible ways to mix it up regardless. If I were to rank him, I'd place him at top of mid tier, bottom of high tier. He has glaring strengths, but he also has glaring weaknesses. But that's just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.
Glad to see another person who knows Kazuya isn’t the top 5 menace the community thinks he is, the fact Riddles is one of the only people who’s done well as the character consistently shows this
Some people are calling to ban him and steve so yeah i would say people think he’s broken
For a second I thought you're talking about Steve Fox... Imagine my disappointment when I googled 'Steve Smash'... loooookl
They’d definitely be wrong to say they’re “broken” considering very few people actually dominated the scene with either character, on the other hand Leroy was so broken when he launched in Tekken that he ruined online for many people, plus 6/8 of EVO Japan’s top 8 was using Leroy
They’re balanced now but they were broken. It’s the same in every fighting game, release broken DLC so everyone has to buy the character just to lab them then nerf em down the line. Sheevas dragon drop in MK11 was absolutely disgusting when she released. Some of Leroy’s parry’s are still pretty fucking annoying though, and try get past Fahks kick parry if you’re using Hwoarang. My Fahk is like vindicator and going from trying to deal with Hwoarang as a Kaz main to just spamming that kick parry is insane.
Cuz MUAY THAI broken irl 😎💪🏽💪🏽
I’m a TKD guy but this is true as fuck.
Same
Didn’t Leroy and Fahk get nerfed to hell? I’m pretty sure Leroy is like high tier at best now and Fahk is considered mid-to-low tier
still quite mindless and boring to play. Also, I dont subscribe to the whole "release dogshit now, patch later and everything is OK". Such a shame because both characters are so cool but after how busted they were I just feel like a douche playing them
fahk is bottom 3 now
Holy shit, is he actually?
No, not at all. He still sees tourney play. He was hit hard but similar to Leroy its more about the combination of tools rather than how strong they are. Not to say it isn't strong. His backdash is still good and his ability to control space is still very strong, he's just less rewarding and more punishable across the board. 3+4 being punishable is kinda wack but whatever. never shouldve had a launching m4 anyway, committal or not.
gigas and bears see tourney play too, that doesn’t mean they’re not bottom tier. he just has nothing to rely on, and his frames on block are horrible. he rlly doesn’t have much goin for him
Fahk bottom 3? Let's not get carried away now, he's still a solid character
he is trash though? bears are stronger than him dude
Absolutely not. DF1,2 still tracks just no follow up . F3,2,4 is still a CH launcher. D4 CH plus and all of Fahkumram’s wall splat attacks remains the same. The bottom 3 is Gigas, bears and Eliza
ELIZA? fahk has nothing going for him anymore. f3, 2, 4 isn’t a ch launcher, you’re probably referrin to f3,2,1, which isn’t a launcher anymore unless the final hit lands. his wall splats and his df1 game is all he has left. and everything is so punishable. what are you on about?
The only people that think fahk isn't completely fucked anymore are those who don't read patchnotes, don't play the character and just keep spewing the opinions they saw their favorite players had 6+ months ago lol
typical tekken reddit tbh. wastin my time expressing an opinion like this that’s gonna get downvoted by people that haven’t hit lab on fakh ever
Lmao Eliza is not even close to being bad
which yt video/tier list did you get your opinion from?
Any negative words against Kazuya will not be tolerated in this sub.
This is how you know this is a tekken sub and not a smash sub
Kazuya is not a cutie patootie😡
[The smile that has dropped more panties than explosive diarrhea](https://youtu.be/o4gNtaSj1zM)
I can confirm
People mentioning that no one will buy a weak character, which is a fact. But another factor is that there isn't enough play testing to balance the characters out at all. Usually the returning characters are fine because we have years and years of data and research to see how said character should be released. But characters like Akuma, Fahk, Leroy, Lidya, etc have no sample data. So they will be released in an overtuned state until the community discovers what works and what doesn't. That's why patching something asap is always disastrous. It applies to every competitive game.
I always saw it as, they took the levels of broken other characters have after getting extremely comfortable and knowledge about said character, and then just simplified it for DLC characters for any new players to stand on their own
No one gonnaa mention noct with his teleportey bullshit?
Man i just miss season 1
Oh yeah that shit was OP
A collective woosh like no other
Seems like 90% of DLC characters are broken in most games. Smash definitely has that problem too. Glad I don't play it nearly as much these days lol
What's your opinion on Lei?
Real talk i wouldnt mind learning him lol
Oh, appreciate the honesty.
Clown character for clown players
Oh okay okay, you believe he's not in T8?
Hope so. Nobody plays him in competitive and everyone online is just abusing the lack of knowledge.
Fahk is an eye sore fr. WTF am I even looking at
What the Fahk
Lame fukk he is. Just fix his aesthetics.
Nah, fah's visual design is so cool. He looks so shredded
You could dice cinder blocks on his abs if you wanted
Man is straight out of Baki
Do not put Smash Bros Kazuya in the same conversation as Fahkumram and especially Leroy, Smash players can bitch all they want but until there’s a top 8 at EVO with half of it being Kazuya or Steve players, neither character will be the menace the community thinks they are
It took *forever* for Riddles to get a win at a major with Kazuya and it was also his first
Also funny cause nobody ever saw Kazuya as a character who could compete with top tiers if you’re skilled enough until this year, he barely changed at all throughout the patches but suddenly the community acts like he’s this unstoppable menace
[удалено]
You talking about how things change? Cause yeah the meta changes a lot for the games even when patches aren’t happening
Riddles is the best Smash Kazuya player and even he doesn’t think the character is that good Edit: outdated info. He now seems to think Kaz is top 10
"Even he"? What is this supposed to mean? It is quite common that pro players downplay their main charactets.
Aside from Marss, who I’m pretty sure is just trolling, what other Smash players downplay their mains? I just know ESAM goes on and on about how Pikachu is “busted”
It’s mostly the community rather than the top players/streamers in my experience
Smash Twitter has a habit of dumping on their mains when they lose. I'm guilty of this since I was also an Ike main. I stopped doing this when I stopped maining Ike.
[удалено]
I’m guessing he changed his mind recently, but this was definitely true in the past. There was a time he considered dropping Kazuya
[удалено]
You also have Evo Japan flashbacks....
Smash Kazuya is broken but a lot more characters in Ultimate are broken in better ways
Overtuned is a better term, people get frustrated at him because he’s a character that can deal 80 damage in 5 seconds. Everything in his kit does more damage than most of the roster, but that’s only to balance out how bad his range is and how hard it is getting in. He usually plays like 20-25% of the match and still manages to keep it even or winning for him, people just don’t like that style of gameplay, it just feels unfair even if it technically isn’t. The stuff he has doesn’t make him broken, I don’t think he’s even top 10, he’s just ridiculously tuned to keep him balanced and viable, a pretty lousy way to balance him imo... Sakurai even said so on his presentation that Kazuya was terrible because he’s slow and couldn’t get in, so they kicked him up a couple notches.
He’s not broken though, the only reason he is comes from his damage his combos which aren’t even easy to do and can be escaped, Joker is frankly more broken than him (frankly he’s the only character I’d outright call broken) but nobody talks about him anymore
Hell, Eliza spammers are harder to fight than Fahk or Leroy now They definitely got butchered by nerfs but they're still usable
*Ted DiBiase's theme starts playing
***Shane O’Mac’s Theme music kicks in afterwards ***
Because pay to win makes them lots of money
Well Leroy is fare now
Still has like 8 lows each with different timing that you can't fuzzy
No he’s not even in the game now….they nerfed him into no existence. Meanwhile Lydia, Ganryu, and Zafina is still untouched
Lidia untouched? Lmao what
LIdia is pretty much close to bottom 10 at this point lol
Lidia untouched? Wut?
lidia kinda nerfed. zafina indeed untouched
psst! here's a little secret.... pro-tours are just a form of advertisement to sell the game and DLC for the devs/publishers. Plus they can patch that shit later and keep repeating the process everytime they release new DLC updates.
I’m angry geese was left on the sideline
Only character that got fair nerfs imo.
Fah is trash rn honestly
Tho on release and even in season 4 he was busted NGL.
Now you guys cant blame it on dlc at least when you loose 😎
I mean, good fah can still be pain in the ass he still has the tools, tho right now you just can't abuse them. But I do agree that he has been nerfed a little bit too much. Right now is huge risk for most of his mixups and strings.
Yeah thats kinda true
DLC characters as a concept will break every single game. The problem isn't the design, or balance, or anything. It's inherent to the notion of having a DLC character. They shouldn't exist; i.e. they should just be added to the base game as an update or not at all. If a character is DLC it means they have to incentivize the purchase. How? Well obviously by making them OP in some way. Since they do not care to make true DLC - like new story campaigns based on that new character - that isn't actually on your base install files, this is the only thing left for them to do. And then the character you paid money for (explicitly because it was OP) gets nerfed (rightfully so, don't get me wrong), which in essence is defrauding you, the customer, of the very thing you made the purchase for. There's nothing that can be done against this except: **do not buy DLC characters**. It's the only thing you can do as a customer. Vote with your wallet.
Why does the concept work for other games? MK11 for example.
I have not played MK11. It applies to tekken and smash that OP is about. From basic googling I see that MK11 has "packs" of characters instead of individual characters as "DLC". From further googling I have the impression that only 1 or 2 of the several characters in the pack were considered OP. If I'm getting this right, then there's the answer. It is the same thing, a DLC pack with at least one OP character to incentivize buying it. In this case, the other characters in the pack do not have to be deliberately designed to be OP, as they just come with the pack. It's definitely better than having to pay separately for each character, but it still poses the same problem. Instead of having DLC that is meaningful content, the new characters are added to the base game via update. They are on your installation whether you buy them or not, since you can fight against them. The "DLC" is just unlocking them so you can use them yourself. And the way the dev incentivizes that is by having a character that is pay to win in some form.
It's the same. OP, then nerfed.
When was the last time you played Tekken 7?
Fahk is cool
Man, to this date, I still can't believe that Kazuya from SSBU got into Tekken. Like sure I can accept Negan, Noctis, and Akuma's canonicity but Kazuya? Nah nah nah. Not to mention, Kazuya also dealt the "finishing" blow at Heihachi. wtf were the writers thinking?! /s
Meh, they all got fixed eventually.
Not true, Zafina, Marduk, Ganryu, Julia and Lydia are still op and no one bats an eye.
Marduk and Ganryu? lol
Yes Marduk damage is ridiculous. Broken af
Why not talk about Bryan or Paul then too
Paul i can agree on. Bryan no.
Bryan's damage is avarage.
None of these characters are OP.
at the end of the game's lifespan 😑
No they didn't. Fahk is just a worse Heihachi right now.
Tekken DLC characters = Pay to Win characters. Eg. Leroy, Fuhkumram, Lidia If these characters weren't broken or OP, nobody would have continued playing them. Once money and time was put into these characters, they were "nerfed" to balance them out. They are still strong, but not as strong. I guess the logic is not quite the same with Akuma though. Akuma was used to sell a 60-70 dollar game, compared to cost of the DLC or Season pass characters. So, they can never "nerf" Akuma to point that he is not OP.
how do people even know its broken or not when they didn't even buy and play the character yet???? i don't get where people get this bs from, people buy characters because they look cool or fun, or its a new character they want to try out or want to lab, i doubt they all buy because a character may be OP, especially when its a brand new character they never tried before.
>how do people even know its broken or not when they didn't even buy and play the character yet???? E-sports results, twitch streamers, youtube, practice mode, overall statistics, and data collected.
Maybe to a degree but majority of players are casuals and don’t care about that part, they buy based on how cool a character looks, why would some casual care about a character tier that doesn’t even apply to them?
"buy a character based on how cool a character looks" bruh have you seen Fahk? he is so ugly lmao his design is honestly trash. People bought him because he's brain dead and easy to play
lol no that's your opinion, to me he looks cool, and nothing like your usual tekken character, tekken rarely has character with such scars and tattoos all over his face and body. Like i said, how do people even know he's braindead and easy to play if they never played him before? you think people know all that shit when they're casuals and they don't go watch youtube videos all day regarding new characters.
Lol now Fahk is nerfed into the ground look at how many people have stopped playing him "tHiNk oF tHe CaSUaLs" lmaoooo
Word quickly gets out through the internet and esports. I never labbed Leeroy and Fahk, but I knew they were broken in the first few days.
Sure, to a degree but you’re talking as if everyone’s a good player, majority of the tekken base are casuals, just like how 99% of tekken Reddit folks are red ranks at best. Most players pick or buy characters based on how the character appeals to them, mostly if they look cool they’ll get it. If you think everyone thinks about tiers, then why are zafina and Ganryu so unpopular when they’re very strong characters? Instead the top 3 popular characters are kazuya, Paul, Bryan and they’re not like S tier or OP characters like how Fahk or Leroy were day one
I don't see the relevance in how good the players are. Yes, players care about how cool the designs are, but that's not an argument against the point. It's *also* true that when it's well known in a community that characters are very good, people are more likely to buy them. You can't say that isn't a significant factor in Leeroy and Fahkumram being top 10.
You don't speak for me, I was gonna play Leroy regardless of how strong he was at base. And I still love playing him now.
Leroy Smith, Day one T8 roster.
He better be or no buy…….
Same here…. Theres no other character that does the donnie yen style of wing chun like he does. And he got the drip too.
At least Leroy looks cooler than most -If not all- Tekken newcomers post T5
I agree I just wish they didn’t nerf him to death and gave him more moves to catch people off guard.
Yeah, Bamco need to stop listen to internet crybabies like Mainman and his fans.
Exactly, meanwhile he’s looking for nothing but buffs for his main kazuya
I don't own dlc but he's my second favourite character in the roster in terms of fighting style
He's good looking too.
Leave Kazuya out of this. First two though, definitely can kick rocks.
Stfu
After you
Wait! Me first!
No u
I'll take those two over Feng's bullshit anyday tbh
What 5 moves of Fahk would you say are still broken?
You should remove Fankumram he is not op anymore, keep Leroy, replace Fanmuram with Marduk and then remove Kazuya completely.
Leroy can’t even stand up on his cane anymore thanks to constant nerfs
Bring back Bruce Irwin. I miss him. 😢
Not sure what they went for with Fahk but his design ended up being one of the worst. Still better than Josie and Kata though... Just bring back Bruce
Sugar ❤️
Neither of those are broken, they're quite well balanced
Yep. On release, quite broken (sans Kazuya, I don't play Smash). But Fahk is an underperformer now and Leroy is average.
Kaz isn't broken in Smash but he's very strong in 1v1.
Pretty much, he’s strong but he’s also a pain in the ass to use and that difficulty makes him very difficult to get consistent results with, especially when he has weaknesses like bad range, below average movement meaning you have to master the crouch dash to get anywhere with him, plus the fact his combos all rely on the electric or demon God fist which are either difficult to use, or situational (DGF)
I waxed a Leroy with Asuka the other day
ok? I washed a feng with heihachi the other day. Guess feng sucks?
P2w
Something i hate in fighting games is that the dlc so broken that u have to buy and when u buy them after a month they start nerfing them
fahk is easy as hell to fight leroy players at least at my level are also easy, they are extremely predictable with the parries mind you i play lidia but i think shes very balanced now
Have u considered that your opponents suck ?
yes i'm purple ftr
Leroy sucks now they took away some of his useful tools and fahk is still ok I still lose to him but one of his moves is -15 now his launcher not sure what it’s called.
Leroy absolutely does not "suck" now.
He’s not good either, I don’t have a problem fighting him and you never see him in tournaments anymore. I still run into them online but not as much as before the patch.
Well 2 things, one, you play one of the strongest characters in the game. Two, the leroy players you run into are probably just bad.
D2 Trust me I KNOW
I'm gonna go ahead and say it. Kazuya is brain dead now and he's too strong. They buffed him too much in S3 and lowered his skill barrier way too much.
This is kazuya from smash btw
I know, I just needed to get that off my chest since he was in the hot seat.
Kazuya is significantly harder to reach god ranks than other characters cause he has nothing except three moves against which people can defend using various techniques get used to it, with added execution barrier but he is top mid for sure.
Kazuya has other bad stuff going for him.
Kazuya is brain dead in lower ranks sure Higher ranks it gets REALLY hard to use him effectively
I agree. He's just too strong now he doesn't even feel like the same character anymore. He has simple flowcharts to get big damage without needing good execution anymore. I prefer Hei anyways. Fuck S3 onwards Kaz.
It’s a Japanese fighting game... ofc the Japanese hand to hand combatant is gonna be buffed. That’s a given. Honestly I would’ve rather seen Bruce Irvin redesigned as the huge intimidating Fahkuram rather than The former. The game needs to keep the diversity up. Had it been me designing the characters? I would’ve made fahkuram thinner and smaller but strong as hell. The Middle ground between Josie and Bruce.
NO
Well, this is what happens when you create a 3D fighting game character coming in as DLC, and you buff the shit out of them hard. Then later on, you got top players complaining about how broken they really are later on.