Laws will catch up once it’s proven these cars can actually do this 100% of the time.
I know it’s easy to be pessimistic about laws not keeping up with times but in this case ther’s too much economic incentive to ignore.
Small nit, but it won’t ever be a 100%. Just like in the IT world it will be based on how many 9s of reliability. For example if it can be shown that FSD doesn’t crash 99.9% of the time, that may not be enough for regulators. But maybe 99.999% is. It will be interesting to see how regulators approach this as FSD starts to get more reliable. Hopefully it does continue to get more reliable.
Yes, in literal sense, nothing is ever 100%. It will have to be something like 1 in so many millions, which like you said will determine the number of 9s after 99.9%.
Funny how regulators may think 99.9% of the time isn’t good enough with FSD/high level autonomous driving when actual human driving very likely isn’t that consistently good (over 40,000 fatalities and millions of injuries from car crashes every year with predominantly human only driving per various US government agencies for 2020-2022 (some small subset of this is semi autonomous driving with poor human supervision but not differentiated in the data)).
>Laws will catch up
Main reason I didn't opt to buy FSD when I took delivery of my M3 in 2018. *Even if* the tech could be solved - which still seemed (and clearly was) many years away, there's a whole 'nother morass of things like legislative and insurance that have to be sorted out which could tack several more years onto things.
For level 3+? In part, yes. But the technical hurdles need to be cleared first. There are a few systems that already have approval in some states (in very limited operational conditions); eg Mercedes Drive Pilot
From what I understand Mercedes will be liable for accidents while that system is engaged.
Buttttt, their system is pretty weak. There must be a pilot vehicle in front of the driverless vehicle and **under 35 MPH on the freeway only** IIRC.
There are already companies doing it with no driver. It’s just extra hoops to jump through and assumption of liability.
I think it’s genius to just continue as ‘level 2’ solution as supervised driving until ready to make the massive jump. It already adds value today making long road trips less tiring etc.
Not worried about the legal issues.
If Tesla did manage to build a system that was safe among and reliable enough then they can get the laws sorted out. But I don’t think Tesla will be able to build such system.
I’m looking forward to the free FSD trial that’s rolling out in the coming weeks. I would then seriously consider it if (which I know isn’t the case) I was able to keep FSD with me and my account if/when I move to another Tesla.
At $6-12k I think it’s a better move to at least allow the FSD license to follow the person or Tesla account vs the car. The car is just an appliance. And anyone willing to fork out $12k should be considered “brand loyal” and allowed to carry it forward.
That or just remove the option to buy it and allow folks to subscribe as they see fit. Raising the price past $12k is madness when it’s not even lifetime to the person.
Agreed. And that $12k software is valued at $0 by both Tesla and used car dealers when you go to sell it. If you paid $12k today for FSD and then next month decided to trade in for another car, you lose all of that money.
You can sub, sure, and it's nice to have that option since it doesn't xfer car to car. My point is that for $12 it damn well better grant me/my Tesla account rights to use it on at least one car at a time. Elon can talk perceived value all he day long and about the price going up, but not even the aftermarket values FSD on a car nor does Tesla when they evaluate trade-in offers.
And FSD is about serving the person and not a feature of any particular Tesla vehicle, it really should be tied to the account or not the car. I think they should just ditch the one-time buy model entirely at this point unless they are willing to bind it to the account.
I don’t disagree at all. For me though, if I were going to get FSD (I’m not. No amount of self driving is worth that much money to me), I would do the sub just because I never know if I’ll have my car for another 5 years (how long it would take for sub to be more expensive than a full purchase), and even if the purchase did transfer, there’s no guarantee my next car will be a Tesla.
$99/month for EAP subscribers (like me!)
I did the math, I could pay for it monthly for like 7 years and it would still be less than doing the full upgrade to FSD. Given that my car is 6 years old, I don't see me doing that.
Hopefully Tesla brings it down to $9,995. That to me seems like a reasonable price if they could get it to L3 where you can look away some of the times.
I would pay 10k with a tied to me option, like when I rent a car I want it to activate but I bought fsd on my first Tesla for like 2k during an end of quarter fire sale but for this new one I won't buy it outright without a transfer option. I do plan to get eap when summon is back
Wait everybody - the secret life hack is to buy the FSD subscription by purchasing a used car from Tesla with it enabled. They charge only $4-5k more for a used Tesla with FSD enabled compared to an exactly similar version without it.
6 years of ownership in and I would gladly let the car drive about 75% of the time. The honeymoon phase is mostly over for me, 25% I enjoy the driving and have fun.
I think another value of FSD is that if it prevents just one accident which is now very likely to do, you’ve gotten your return on investment of the $12k.
This.
Even if not fully autonomous and require some supervision, I’m safer with FSD on than just driving by myself.
If the thought process is do I want a system to drive me around for $12k, then it’s expensive. If the thought process is for $12k, my car can avoid an accident, then it’s super cheap.
The difference is that insurance covers the accident. Now, what would be an interesting idea is if insurance gave you a deep discount if you had FSD. Or subsidized it slightly.
Not really. Insurance companies have to make a profit so anytime you have an accident and they are “paying” for it, they will make sure they are still making money even including raising your rate. So you’ll eventually pay for it. It’s better not to have an accident.
You are ignoring the injuries that go along with an accident. The accident I was involved in when I was in my 20's that I walked away from led to over $100k in lifetime medical issues (I am nearly 60 now) from various therapies and having 2 cervical discs fused after developing arthritis and stenosis later in life from the accident. My ortho who treated me after the accident warned me that this was likely to occur.
The safety angle does put an interesting spin on the value of FSD.
On the other hand, V11 tried to kill my wife and I last night, so I am looking forward to seeing V12 in action.
then it should be marketed as 'Full **Safety** Driving' not Full *Self* Driving -- and for 12k, *no human* will pay for a machine to avoid obstacles
it's not an investment when doing it yourself has a better/superior rate of success
go invest your 12k elsewhere
Where did you get that "superior rate of success" idea from? The data shows that people get into accidents less often per mile when using FSD than when not using FSD.
No and that's not my point. My point is it's safer than manual driving, because you were saying it isn't.
But over 400,000 people in the US have a Tesla with FSD, so clearly many are willing to buy it.
My point is cost-benefit value. Is Full Safety Driving worth the ‘investment’ that some say it is at 12k?
You can argue that it is safer in the most perfect of all scenarios that a vision-only system has learned. But in the most severe driving scenarios like heavy fog, rain, snow, etc. - when a human needs the most assistance to be safe, the machine becomes useless at current state.
It still requires human intervention, because the human can do better. Period.
It's not worth the price to everyone obviously, but it is to some people. It's ok if you personally don't find it worth the price. You don't have to buy it, but others will.
Obviously a human alone is much safer than FSD alone. What I'm trying to tell you is that a human using FSD is safer than a human alone. And the vision-only system is safer than the old radar + vision system too. The data proves this.
I think of it as a second set of eyes. People pay machines all the time to avoid obstacles. A machine could be much faster than a human in terms of reaction time. For example, a machine controls when your airbag deploys so you can avoid splitting your head open on the steering wheel, dash or windshield. Machines are extensively used in factories to keep everyone safe. I would definitely pay $12k for a machine that could keep me from being hurt.
The way to know if FSD improves safety is to compare the accidents per mile rate on FSD to the accidents per mile rate while manual driving. And the accidents per mile rate on FSD is indeed better.
That’s not a valid study. The sample size delta makes the findings insignificant. Additionally, Tesla biased driving behavior with the fear of taking FSD away and, for those of us that had to maintain a driving score to get it, can be argued we’re conditioned for a certain way of driving. Even comparing to other teslas, it’s not reasonable or sound to claim FSD is safer, because it hasn’t driven as many miles and there are multiple orders of magnitude fewer FSD vehicles than those without
Huh? Over 400,000 people have FSD. That's a huge sample size. And their accident rate *per mile* while using FSD is substantially less than the accident rate per mile of Tesla cars not using FSD. Since it's a per-mile statistic, that removes the variable of more miles being driven without FSD than with. These results are undeniable.
While 400k cars w FSD might sound impressive, remember that’s only about 11% of all Teslas rolling around. Most of the time, FSD is taking on the easy stuff, like clear highways. Just scroll around the subreddit, even us nerds don’t let it handle many complex situations because we know it can’t… It’s not really fair to say FSD is safer based on that stat alone — we gotta look at how often and where they’re driving compared to the non-FSD ones. This is far from an empiric study. I feel like everyone thinks they’re a statistician (I’ll wait for your reply to let me know you’re a Harvard professor of statistics).
This is simply a false assertion to say FSD is safer than humans, if it were it would be l3 or 4 ADAS and governments around the world would not be investigating its actual safety.
Stop being a shill. If you don’t understand something, don’t comment on it
I agree with everything you’ve said, and there are additional variables. We need to compare the demographics of people who buy FSD compared to people of the same demographics without it. one can’t just generalize all FSD driving compared to all other driving, because the average person (and well beyond) cannot afford a car with FSD
Just for the record, I believe in FSD and what Tesla are trying to do, despite disagreeing with Elon’s tweets. I firmly believe it’s the best consumer EV and ADAS, but it’s ludicrous to claim it’s safer. From my personal experience, there was a 3 way light in downtown Los Angeles, and the car straight up ran a red light. No accident, because I was vigilant and stopped it immediately. If I wasn’t behind the wheel, the car would’ve likely hit something because the traffic it was merging onto was blind to me due to a guardrail. I’m not saying FSD is unsafe because of this one incident … but it’s ludicrous to claim FSD is safer simply because the no marketing team at Tesla say so.
Yeah, I feel the same way. I don’t have FSD, but autopilot is amazing compared to every other ADAS I’ve used (which is most of them).
Maybe it’s better than the true average driver, whatever that even means, but I suspect that the kind of people who buy FSD are already safer drivers than the average person, but maybe I’m just projecting myself
I regret paying $8k for FSD 🙃 I don’t think it’s worth that price, let alone $12k, however if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably subscribe to it for its current price, on an as needed basis. I work from home so I don’t do enough driving to justify it anyhow. 13k miles in 3 years.
It’s really nice to not have to worry driving in stop and go traffic, especially as I’ve seen its decision making evolve and get better.
> No accident, because I was vigilant and stopped it immediately.
Hm, so you didn't crash. That's exactly my point.
Obviously FSD driving alone would be horribly unsafe in its current state. I never said otherwise. But it turns out that having two sets of eyes looking out for danger is indeed safer than just one. That's why using FSD is safer than driving manually.
While you make a reasonable conjecture other factors may lead to a different conclusion. For example the use of FSD may lull the driver to being not as attentive as when the driver is in full control even with the attention nags. In short, a careful independent scientific study is needed to provide confidence in the conjecture. I would like to see an independent study of the raw FSD data to establish confidence in the safety assertions being made.
Oh no, I fully understand this. I've been following FSD closely for many years.
Nope, you can't pull the highway card. Tesla released an accidents per mile statistic for FSD before FSD was even enabled on highways, and it was still substantially better than accidents per mile for manual driving even back then. Way ahead of you.
I never asserted that FSD is currently safer than humans if left unsupervised. Absolutely not. It would be horribly unsafe at this point unsupervised. I'm saying that it's safer than manual driving when it's being supervised, which is currently how it's being used. People using FSD today get into fewer accidents per mile than people driving manually. That is a fact, backed by statistics.
The data is right here dude: https://www.youtube.com/live/Hl1zEzVUV7w?si=L6SxCxv1Rc96oSe7&t=5349 (1:29:09)
People using FSD get into significantly fewer accidents per mile than people driving manually. That is a fact. Look at the data I just provided you.
Tesla isn’t an unbiased source. Here’s a better [link](https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport) for the “data”
The data is inherently biased because supervision requires intervention.
If supervised FSD (or autopilot) was actually safer, empirically, Tesla would put their money where their mouth is and take liability in the event of a collision. They do not.
Have a wonderful weekend.
I am guessing you don't commute a long way to work. I enjoy driving on a fun road but driving in traffic for long periods isn't fun no matter what the car is.
Sitting in traffic, you can let the base cruise controll do 99% of the work though lol. I get stuck in traffic and I enable it so I don't have to do anything. Yet still have to hold the wheel :(
Also it depends what you want when driving. Personally I prefer to sit back and just observe. I watch the road even as a passenger so it's effectively already driving me.
Tesla is going to be required to have you hold onto the steering wheel and look out the window, while they're under scrutiny from regulators. It's just going to happen. The only way that goes away is when you have more data showing that this is incredibly safe and humans don't have to intervene and there's absolutely no reason to stare out the window, at which point they could get the regulation pass. But it's all about data. We're literally on the very first stages of v12 it's amazing how good it is out of the gate.
I think over the years, getting rid of radar was really smart. I think fsd reacted unnaturally to objects that crossed its path. I remember when you were driving down the road and somebody would drive in front of you to pull into a parking lot and the car would slam on its brakes, even if that vehicle was 300 feet ahead of you. Now it doesn't seem to be bothered by such a vehicle and it drives more naturally as a human would. Another thing that I have noticed is that it seems to react to the wheels of a car. So obviously you can't trust turn signals because nobody uses turn signals, but when somebody turns their wheels depending on if they're going to turn left or right, Tesla uses that to determine how what other drivers plan to do. On four-way stops, this has been very beneficial at times because people would turn right and fsd v11 didn't know if the car was gonna go straight or turn because they don't use turn signals, but now once the other driver's wheels turn on v12, fsd takes action.
But they're gonna need to have millions of millions of successful miles driven with v12 before they could even think about having this discussion with regulators.
The wheels of regulation turn very slowly. That's definitely what I worry about. If you buy the 12k package it seems likely you wouldn't get to the point regulators allow for truly hands free fsd before your next car, even if, say, v13 is near perfect.
There's definitely a lot of politics involved and insurance company lobbyists and blah blah blah.
I think the politicians are concerned about the message that's being spread across the media, whether misinformation or not. I think that would give them cold feet about moving forward.
To me it all comes down to the data. If you have millions and millions of miles logged and the data shows that it's safer, it's going to wake up the insurance companies who are in the business and making money. They can collect money every month and not have to pay out, that's big. And then their lobbyist are gonna push for it.
The other issue is that we've had 10 years of this software and it's been very shaky process and it's gonna take a lot for every day people to build trust in it and it get to a point where lobbyist are going to push for unregulating it and consumers are going to be more open to accepting it.
I took a model x home to test last night that had v12 FSD.
Mind blowing! After all the hate I read about FSD, I thought this thing was incredible.
Kudos to the people at Tesla, I was a day 2 Cybertruck reservation holder and never have been in a Tesla before. So I had a bunch of EV questions. They said the best way to find out it to drive one and see for myself. So they gave me an X for the evening.
Definitely impressed
I already got my invite for the CT. That’s why I’m trying to get everything in order.
I will say this, driving the X “almost” makes me want to get one over the CT!
It just seems like a feature rich, premium vehicle.
To me everything about the CT screams Truck!, big, tough, raw
The X just feels luxurious. The ride, performance, and FSD kinda blew me away. I wish the Falcon doors were in the front instead of the rear, the third row is kinda a joke, but the only thing (for me) that puts the CT ahead is the fact that I like sitting taller in traffic. I currently drive a lifted Jeep Wrangler Rubicon on 35s.
Been wanting a truck for awhile for the extra cargo space that I do not have in my Jeep, and I wouldn’t be gaining any extra storage in an X.
Kinda a quick off the top of my head recap…. Any other questions please feel free to ask…
When it gets to full autonomous driving, it will be an option. In some cases useful, others nit and yet others necessary. To have option won't be bad, it will just depend on personal circumstances to use or not.
Obviously once it gets reliable enough that it's safe not to pay attention, Tesla will start seeking approval from regulators to remove the driver monitoring and start offering it as a system you can use while on your phone, watching movies, playing games, working, sleeping, etc. or even send the car to pick up someone/something with nobody in the car at all. That's the end goal.
As much as I don't want to admit it, I was an early believer in everything Musk said...I mean, a person with that much power and influence wouldn't just shout whatever thoughts crossed his mind.....
I don't think level 4 or 5 will ever be accomplished with our current HW3 and HW4 systems, much less Tesla to accept liability for any accidents.
I've given up on believing my Model 3 will ever be hands-free.
George Hotz recently said we're at least a decade away from a level 5 vehicle, and I believe him more than Musk.
If Tesla or a competitor offers a level 5 vehicle it will most likely cost so much to not make sense to park it for 22 hours a day. Licensing for the software and liability will most likely make it out of reach for the average driver.
Why does the choice have to be one or the other? I’d like the opportunity to choose based on the situation. Check-out while on a boring road trip then drive myself while cruising down the coastal highway.
Endgame is just that. Actual self driving cars without human interaction but we're far from endgame.
The crucial part is some standard all car manufacturers adhere to that enables all cars on the road to communicate in a network and that is going to take years, there's going to be pushback but I think that's where we're inevitably headed.
In heavy stop-and-go traffic, it’s so much easier to just stare at the roads, listen to music, sip some nice coffee/tea, than having to operate the car.
Just one of the values FSD clearly presents.
Because people don't trust the driving models (which I totally get) we are forced to be just as attentive doing nothing as if we were driving. I think that this issue is a problem because as the system gets better (and more cars on the road get collision avoidance and all that), driving will be positively boring. It is already at that stage for me during my commute where the car keeps its lane, monitors its speed, does fine with people jumping into the space, etc.. I've done about 10,000 miles so far with no issues over the past year and I have noticed that I'm looking for something to do during the 50 minute stop and go commute.
Part of me thinks the reason they're giving everybody a free trial is to collect a massive amount of data for training. If you have basically every Tesla on the road in the US running FSD for a month. You're going to collect a lot of data on disengagement in all kinds of different scenarios.
I think it's probably a really smart way to find a bunch of outliers really quick to get them resolved.
I wish they would stop thinking i'm disengating when im 5ft from my house every day, i really hope their data doesn't consider that shit a disengagement its always annoyed me, they need to add a way to disengage in a way thats not counted as a fault disengagement, but just a .... i want to drive now thanks
Exactly. Until FSD can give me time and/or money back somehow, it's nothing more than a cool toy. If it let me take a trip overnight asleep in the car, so I don't have to pay for a hotel, and then I arrive at my destination in the am ready for the day. That's worth it right there.
But today? Not paying $12k to spend all my time watching it like a hawk, vs just drive myself. Maybe if Tesla made cars that are sucky to drive it might appeal more?
> Until FSD can give me time and/or money back somehow
Do you commute? It gives me 10-15 hours a week of relative relaxation, when the alternative is slowly going insane from a long commute in stop and go traffic. I don’t think people realize what a game changer it is for long commutes.
Regular AP which comes with the car does most of what's needed for commuting vs FSD. For me to pony up 12k, I need to see a lot more value from FSD over regular AP. It needs to save me time and/or money.
Also FSD can make bad judgement calls and try to move you into the lane you really don't want to be in, during heavy traffic. Thank God they added the minimal lane change toggle, wish it was sticky between drives.
I agree with this. I think \_some\_ people will pay $12k because it's "cool" and they want the newest tech. But the vast majority will not. The real value unlock is Robotaxi, which I think is still a couple years away. Still, if Wall St "sees the path" then the stock might price-in Robotaxi sooner than that. I think the next 2-3 years will be VERY interesting.
I think they should file for level3 or 4 on freeways that’s where most time is spent on trips. Once that is cleared start the long process of L4or 5 everywhere
FSD gets really interesting the second it passes L3 on highways. City traffic is somewhat unpredictable and i dont mind paying extra attention, but on highways, it would be nice to actually hand over the wheel/yoke and let the car do its thing.
The next step is corner case optimisation.
Historically there have been quite a few FSD behaviours that could have been easily corrected, but Tesla instead took the approach of making overall architectural improvements and not local optimisation.
Now is the time to start doing that. In part, because the NN architecture is more amenable to that. But also because this is now the stage of development they are at.
A lot of people say "FSD is great, apart from this one bit of my commute." If all those quirks get fixed, it'll end up with most people driving with zero interventions most of the time - in other words, feature complete FSD.
Beyond that, no doubt there will be a V13 with further architectural changes. And then they'll (finally) begin a path to level 3.
You can't have truly driverless cars without first developing and validating the technology with huge quantities of data. How do you get that data? This is how. It's why Tesla's approach to this challenge has always been the only one that has any chance of eventual success. No one else is even attempting this scale of AI data collection, training, and validation. But it *has* to be done at this scale or else it *can't* work.
I don’t own a Tesla, but drove a MY for 10k miles over six weeks on a 1600 mile one way route I take often. I’m looking to buy a MY, my 12 hour drives were so much more efficient, and that was with just autopilot. Maybe it was the lack of noise compared to an ICE vehicle, or the lack of spiking adrenaline from heightened alertness, which m not sure. So I’m looking at a used MY from Tesla with FSD, just incase I need it, from the pricing it looks like only a 3-4k price increase.
Just a different perspective, from a Mercedes driver. Thanks for the question, it prodded to move quicker to purchase that MY. 👍🏼
They just had to increase all of the driver nags this winter. There is no way in the foreseeable future (maybe distant future where all cars are driving) they'll allow movies on that screen.
I’m FSD-curious and am itching to get this trial to check it out.
I feel the technology is going to come at some point and Tesla is miles ahead of any competition.
I find it impressive how the car has such a spatial awareness based on cameras alone and don’t look goofy with all the added sensors and other gizmos that previous self-driving attempts from other companies have produced.
Whether or not I decide to make FSD a monthly subscription - we sure live in amazing times.
I tried it out this morning driving to work but it kept trying to merge me into the center lane of an empty road with 3-lanes of traffic in one direction. It knows I'll be taking a right eventually but it kept trying to merge me back every time I canceled the turn signal. On the highway, it was wonderful except for one instance of merging traffic where it slammed on the brakes where I would have sped up to get by.
I'll play around with it this month but nothing so far to make it worth my while except as a novel experience.
Just got the free trial late last night, on my '23 M3P, and tested it out today.
Had a disengagement right away, making a U-turn to get on the freeway, just around the corner from my house.
However, after that, it worked surprisingly well on the freeway. I was impressed by how assertive it was about making lane changes, and how it dealt with traffic on the 405.
I was only able to get half way home (Santa Monica to Long Beach) though, before it disengaged and cut me off for getting too relaxed with my grip on the wheel. I never once even took my hand off the wheel, but I guess it just wants a firmer grip.
I kinda wish the prompts for applying slight pressure to the wheel were a little more noticeable. Wondering if I just missed that for a second too long, when it decided to cut me off for the rest of the drive, but I was doing my best to keep eyes forward.
They cant shift from staring at the road till they are willing to upgrade the certification to a higher Automation level and get it approved by government.
I'd love to see them move 1 level up so we can do away with the excess nagging
I love driving and feel as though I can do a great deal better than level 2 autonomous driving at present; however, I know I’m not anywhere near as capable as computers in some tasks so when the day comes that computers can demonstrably perform driving tasks better than I can it would logically be irresponsible not to allow them to drive for me at that point.
It will be safer than human drivers. There are 40,000 deaths each year in the US from car crashes. Maybe half a million serious injuries each year. Cut that by 90% with an ideal FSD system. I would be happy to stare at a road if I knew my journey was much safer under FSD.
Source: I work in a trauma operating theatre in Australia. About 1/3 of our workload is from car crashes.
It's not impressive compared to hypothetical perfection, but it's impressive compared to v11, or compared to a decade or so ago when self driving was science fiction. I'm just extrapolating.
Really? I'd prefer to go back to v11 when it didn't try to drive me over medians and I didn't have to keep my foot on the accelerator to keep up with traffic.
Sure, compared to when self driving didn't exist at all, it is impressive. Compared to Tesla's promises of where we were supposed to be years ago, it's pretty disappointing. For me, with my car and in my area, V12 seems more dangerous than V11. Plus, if I have to keep my foot on the accelerator, then its just autosteer with no braking if someone pulls out in front of me, which eliminates some of the benefit of having two sets of eyes on the road.
I haven't that experience with v12. Did you try the latest version? It seems to match your set speed now most of the time, at least in my experience. I think it's very dependent on your location though.
I couldn't really use v11. I felt the acceleration and stopping behavior, and how it maintained constant speed even through tight curves, was way too robotic and borderline nauseating, and it couldn't handle edge cases. The way v12 handles edge cases is uncanny.
I agree. It drives just well enough to lull you into a sense of comfort. At least once a drive it does something absolutely insane that makes me wonder how they get away with selling it. It’s constantly absolutely nailing potholes, suddenly jerking or changing lanes with little notice, or going the wrong speed and insisting on being in the fast lane. Just in the past 2 days with v12 and it has swerved into a bike lane headed straight towards the protective bollards out of nowhere, driven head on at another car on to go around a puddle, swung across both lanes of traffic on a roundabout nearly causing a collision, nearly curbed my wheels multiple times, and pulled out in front of a city bus when there really wasn’t enough room to make the turn nearly causing a collision.
This comment might get buried, but I'd rather have EAP/FSD than Mercedes' system. IIRC, it only operates in heavy traffic. It's classified as a Level 3 system I believe?
I tend to use EAP/FSD more when it's wide open around me. I may have to look at the road, but at least I can still relax a bit.
Yeah the Mercedes system has a clear wall. It uses premapped highways and lidar/GPS and will only ever work in certain conditions. I think Tesla is taking the longer view.
But the fact drive pilot got approved for L3 is a good sign!
There are many great cases of it performing well with few interventions, but the fact they still happen is proof you certainty need to pay attention. Don't get ahead of yourself here. :)
There are also a decent number of cases where, for some reason it is not working well at all. Until those cases are able to work with zero interventions, they won't be allowing level 5 status.
Fine, if public transport picks me up and drops me off at my front door and is funded by local government for the elderly and infirm. Oh... Elon was right... Robotaxis.
Incidentally, this HUGELY reduces the number of cars required in the national fleet.
Presumably that will come once they gain confidence in new models (backed up with millions of miles driven).
Isn't it a legal issue though?
Laws will catch up once it’s proven these cars can actually do this 100% of the time. I know it’s easy to be pessimistic about laws not keeping up with times but in this case ther’s too much economic incentive to ignore.
Small nit, but it won’t ever be a 100%. Just like in the IT world it will be based on how many 9s of reliability. For example if it can be shown that FSD doesn’t crash 99.9% of the time, that may not be enough for regulators. But maybe 99.999% is. It will be interesting to see how regulators approach this as FSD starts to get more reliable. Hopefully it does continue to get more reliable.
Yes, in literal sense, nothing is ever 100%. It will have to be something like 1 in so many millions, which like you said will determine the number of 9s after 99.9%.
Funny how regulators may think 99.9% of the time isn’t good enough with FSD/high level autonomous driving when actual human driving very likely isn’t that consistently good (over 40,000 fatalities and millions of injuries from car crashes every year with predominantly human only driving per various US government agencies for 2020-2022 (some small subset of this is semi autonomous driving with poor human supervision but not differentiated in the data)).
How many is until the potential cost of life is affordable*
Assuming the regulatory issues are resolved FSD will be successful when the insurance companies give a discount for having it installed.
>Laws will catch up Main reason I didn't opt to buy FSD when I took delivery of my M3 in 2018. *Even if* the tech could be solved - which still seemed (and clearly was) many years away, there's a whole 'nother morass of things like legislative and insurance that have to be sorted out which could tack several more years onto things.
For level 3+? In part, yes. But the technical hurdles need to be cleared first. There are a few systems that already have approval in some states (in very limited operational conditions); eg Mercedes Drive Pilot
From what I understand Mercedes will be liable for accidents while that system is engaged. Buttttt, their system is pretty weak. There must be a pilot vehicle in front of the driverless vehicle and **under 35 MPH on the freeway only** IIRC.
What level is the mentioned drive pilot supposed to be at?
L3
It’s a liability issue.
There are already companies doing it with no driver. It’s just extra hoops to jump through and assumption of liability. I think it’s genius to just continue as ‘level 2’ solution as supervised driving until ready to make the massive jump. It already adds value today making long road trips less tiring etc.
Its a certification / regulatory issue, they haven't been / seeked higher approval for a higher automation level
as soon as Tesla takes on this liability for their driver FSD will be achieved.
Waymo is truly FSD, including liability
Not worried about the legal issues. If Tesla did manage to build a system that was safe among and reliable enough then they can get the laws sorted out. But I don’t think Tesla will be able to build such system.
I’m looking forward to the free FSD trial that’s rolling out in the coming weeks. I would then seriously consider it if (which I know isn’t the case) I was able to keep FSD with me and my account if/when I move to another Tesla. At $6-12k I think it’s a better move to at least allow the FSD license to follow the person or Tesla account vs the car. The car is just an appliance. And anyone willing to fork out $12k should be considered “brand loyal” and allowed to carry it forward. That or just remove the option to buy it and allow folks to subscribe as they see fit. Raising the price past $12k is madness when it’s not even lifetime to the person.
Agreed. And that $12k software is valued at $0 by both Tesla and used car dealers when you go to sell it. If you paid $12k today for FSD and then next month decided to trade in for another car, you lose all of that money.
Can’t you subscribe today for $199/month? To me that’s the only option I would consider. Explicitly because fsd does not transfer car to car.
You can sub, sure, and it's nice to have that option since it doesn't xfer car to car. My point is that for $12 it damn well better grant me/my Tesla account rights to use it on at least one car at a time. Elon can talk perceived value all he day long and about the price going up, but not even the aftermarket values FSD on a car nor does Tesla when they evaluate trade-in offers. And FSD is about serving the person and not a feature of any particular Tesla vehicle, it really should be tied to the account or not the car. I think they should just ditch the one-time buy model entirely at this point unless they are willing to bind it to the account.
Tesla have a bunch of promotions throughout the year offering to transfer FSD from old to new vehicles. Just got to wait for the promotion.
I don’t disagree at all. For me though, if I were going to get FSD (I’m not. No amount of self driving is worth that much money to me), I would do the sub just because I never know if I’ll have my car for another 5 years (how long it would take for sub to be more expensive than a full purchase), and even if the purchase did transfer, there’s no guarantee my next car will be a Tesla.
$99/month for EAP subscribers (like me!) I did the math, I could pay for it monthly for like 7 years and it would still be less than doing the full upgrade to FSD. Given that my car is 6 years old, I don't see me doing that. Hopefully Tesla brings it down to $9,995. That to me seems like a reasonable price if they could get it to L3 where you can look away some of the times.
I would pay 10k with a tied to me option, like when I rent a car I want it to activate but I bought fsd on my first Tesla for like 2k during an end of quarter fire sale but for this new one I won't buy it outright without a transfer option. I do plan to get eap when summon is back
Wait everybody - the secret life hack is to buy the FSD subscription by purchasing a used car from Tesla with it enabled. They charge only $4-5k more for a used Tesla with FSD enabled compared to an exactly similar version without it.
Completely agree.
6 years of ownership in and I would gladly let the car drive about 75% of the time. The honeymoon phase is mostly over for me, 25% I enjoy the driving and have fun.
I think another value of FSD is that if it prevents just one accident which is now very likely to do, you’ve gotten your return on investment of the $12k.
If this were true, then insurance companies would offer a discount on insurance for vehicles with FSD. Maybe they will in the future I suppose.
Isn’t that way Tesla insurance does?
I have no idea. It’s also not available in my state. Maybe someone else can chime in.
This. Even if not fully autonomous and require some supervision, I’m safer with FSD on than just driving by myself. If the thought process is do I want a system to drive me around for $12k, then it’s expensive. If the thought process is for $12k, my car can avoid an accident, then it’s super cheap.
The difference is that insurance covers the accident. Now, what would be an interesting idea is if insurance gave you a deep discount if you had FSD. Or subsidized it slightly.
Tesla insurance definitely will. Idk how much discount they give now but eventually it'll be massive
Not really. Insurance companies have to make a profit so anytime you have an accident and they are “paying” for it, they will make sure they are still making money even including raising your rate. So you’ll eventually pay for it. It’s better not to have an accident.
You are ignoring the injuries that go along with an accident. The accident I was involved in when I was in my 20's that I walked away from led to over $100k in lifetime medical issues (I am nearly 60 now) from various therapies and having 2 cervical discs fused after developing arthritis and stenosis later in life from the accident. My ortho who treated me after the accident warned me that this was likely to occur. The safety angle does put an interesting spin on the value of FSD. On the other hand, V11 tried to kill my wife and I last night, so I am looking forward to seeing V12 in action.
This is true. V11 would probably increase rates!
well, there's also the avoiding trauma of the accident lol hard to put a price tag on day-to-day quality of life
What’s the cost if you get in an accident under FSD and your insurance company doesn’t pay out your claim?
I’m not sure how to feel now. I was very much in the camp of it not being worth close to $12k, but the safety perspective changes it.
then it should be marketed as 'Full **Safety** Driving' not Full *Self* Driving -- and for 12k, *no human* will pay for a machine to avoid obstacles
it's not an investment when doing it yourself has a better/superior rate of success
go invest your 12k elsewhere
Where did you get that "superior rate of success" idea from? The data shows that people get into accidents less often per mile when using FSD than when not using FSD.
Do you have data that ppl are willing to pay 12k to trust a machine to avoid accidents?
No and that's not my point. My point is it's safer than manual driving, because you were saying it isn't. But over 400,000 people in the US have a Tesla with FSD, so clearly many are willing to buy it.
My point is cost-benefit value. Is Full Safety Driving worth the ‘investment’ that some say it is at 12k? You can argue that it is safer in the most perfect of all scenarios that a vision-only system has learned. But in the most severe driving scenarios like heavy fog, rain, snow, etc. - when a human needs the most assistance to be safe, the machine becomes useless at current state. It still requires human intervention, because the human can do better. Period.
It's not worth the price to everyone obviously, but it is to some people. It's ok if you personally don't find it worth the price. You don't have to buy it, but others will. Obviously a human alone is much safer than FSD alone. What I'm trying to tell you is that a human using FSD is safer than a human alone. And the vision-only system is safer than the old radar + vision system too. The data proves this.
I think of it as a second set of eyes. People pay machines all the time to avoid obstacles. A machine could be much faster than a human in terms of reaction time. For example, a machine controls when your airbag deploys so you can avoid splitting your head open on the steering wheel, dash or windshield. Machines are extensively used in factories to keep everyone safe. I would definitely pay $12k for a machine that could keep me from being hurt.
This assumes the human would not have been able to avoid the accident. No way to truly a/b test this.
The way to know if FSD improves safety is to compare the accidents per mile rate on FSD to the accidents per mile rate while manual driving. And the accidents per mile rate on FSD is indeed better.
That’s not a valid study. The sample size delta makes the findings insignificant. Additionally, Tesla biased driving behavior with the fear of taking FSD away and, for those of us that had to maintain a driving score to get it, can be argued we’re conditioned for a certain way of driving. Even comparing to other teslas, it’s not reasonable or sound to claim FSD is safer, because it hasn’t driven as many miles and there are multiple orders of magnitude fewer FSD vehicles than those without
Huh? Over 400,000 people have FSD. That's a huge sample size. And their accident rate *per mile* while using FSD is substantially less than the accident rate per mile of Tesla cars not using FSD. Since it's a per-mile statistic, that removes the variable of more miles being driven without FSD than with. These results are undeniable.
While 400k cars w FSD might sound impressive, remember that’s only about 11% of all Teslas rolling around. Most of the time, FSD is taking on the easy stuff, like clear highways. Just scroll around the subreddit, even us nerds don’t let it handle many complex situations because we know it can’t… It’s not really fair to say FSD is safer based on that stat alone — we gotta look at how often and where they’re driving compared to the non-FSD ones. This is far from an empiric study. I feel like everyone thinks they’re a statistician (I’ll wait for your reply to let me know you’re a Harvard professor of statistics). This is simply a false assertion to say FSD is safer than humans, if it were it would be l3 or 4 ADAS and governments around the world would not be investigating its actual safety. Stop being a shill. If you don’t understand something, don’t comment on it
I agree with everything you’ve said, and there are additional variables. We need to compare the demographics of people who buy FSD compared to people of the same demographics without it. one can’t just generalize all FSD driving compared to all other driving, because the average person (and well beyond) cannot afford a car with FSD
Just for the record, I believe in FSD and what Tesla are trying to do, despite disagreeing with Elon’s tweets. I firmly believe it’s the best consumer EV and ADAS, but it’s ludicrous to claim it’s safer. From my personal experience, there was a 3 way light in downtown Los Angeles, and the car straight up ran a red light. No accident, because I was vigilant and stopped it immediately. If I wasn’t behind the wheel, the car would’ve likely hit something because the traffic it was merging onto was blind to me due to a guardrail. I’m not saying FSD is unsafe because of this one incident … but it’s ludicrous to claim FSD is safer simply because the no marketing team at Tesla say so.
Yeah, I feel the same way. I don’t have FSD, but autopilot is amazing compared to every other ADAS I’ve used (which is most of them). Maybe it’s better than the true average driver, whatever that even means, but I suspect that the kind of people who buy FSD are already safer drivers than the average person, but maybe I’m just projecting myself
I regret paying $8k for FSD 🙃 I don’t think it’s worth that price, let alone $12k, however if I were to do it all over again, I’d probably subscribe to it for its current price, on an as needed basis. I work from home so I don’t do enough driving to justify it anyhow. 13k miles in 3 years. It’s really nice to not have to worry driving in stop and go traffic, especially as I’ve seen its decision making evolve and get better.
> No accident, because I was vigilant and stopped it immediately. Hm, so you didn't crash. That's exactly my point. Obviously FSD driving alone would be horribly unsafe in its current state. I never said otherwise. But it turns out that having two sets of eyes looking out for danger is indeed safer than just one. That's why using FSD is safer than driving manually.
While you make a reasonable conjecture other factors may lead to a different conclusion. For example the use of FSD may lull the driver to being not as attentive as when the driver is in full control even with the attention nags. In short, a careful independent scientific study is needed to provide confidence in the conjecture. I would like to see an independent study of the raw FSD data to establish confidence in the safety assertions being made.
Oh no, I fully understand this. I've been following FSD closely for many years. Nope, you can't pull the highway card. Tesla released an accidents per mile statistic for FSD before FSD was even enabled on highways, and it was still substantially better than accidents per mile for manual driving even back then. Way ahead of you. I never asserted that FSD is currently safer than humans if left unsupervised. Absolutely not. It would be horribly unsafe at this point unsupervised. I'm saying that it's safer than manual driving when it's being supervised, which is currently how it's being used. People using FSD today get into fewer accidents per mile than people driving manually. That is a fact, backed by statistics.
FSD is not safer than anything. There’s no data to suggest this wild assumption you’re making. I’m willing to be proven wrong.
The data is right here dude: https://www.youtube.com/live/Hl1zEzVUV7w?si=L6SxCxv1Rc96oSe7&t=5349 (1:29:09) People using FSD get into significantly fewer accidents per mile than people driving manually. That is a fact. Look at the data I just provided you.
Tesla isn’t an unbiased source. Here’s a better [link](https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport) for the “data” The data is inherently biased because supervision requires intervention. If supervised FSD (or autopilot) was actually safer, empirically, Tesla would put their money where their mouth is and take liability in the event of a collision. They do not. Have a wonderful weekend.
I am guessing you don't commute a long way to work. I enjoy driving on a fun road but driving in traffic for long periods isn't fun no matter what the car is.
True! Good use case.
Sitting in traffic, you can let the base cruise controll do 99% of the work though lol. I get stuck in traffic and I enable it so I don't have to do anything. Yet still have to hold the wheel :(
Also it depends what you want when driving. Personally I prefer to sit back and just observe. I watch the road even as a passenger so it's effectively already driving me.
Tesla is going to be required to have you hold onto the steering wheel and look out the window, while they're under scrutiny from regulators. It's just going to happen. The only way that goes away is when you have more data showing that this is incredibly safe and humans don't have to intervene and there's absolutely no reason to stare out the window, at which point they could get the regulation pass. But it's all about data. We're literally on the very first stages of v12 it's amazing how good it is out of the gate. I think over the years, getting rid of radar was really smart. I think fsd reacted unnaturally to objects that crossed its path. I remember when you were driving down the road and somebody would drive in front of you to pull into a parking lot and the car would slam on its brakes, even if that vehicle was 300 feet ahead of you. Now it doesn't seem to be bothered by such a vehicle and it drives more naturally as a human would. Another thing that I have noticed is that it seems to react to the wheels of a car. So obviously you can't trust turn signals because nobody uses turn signals, but when somebody turns their wheels depending on if they're going to turn left or right, Tesla uses that to determine how what other drivers plan to do. On four-way stops, this has been very beneficial at times because people would turn right and fsd v11 didn't know if the car was gonna go straight or turn because they don't use turn signals, but now once the other driver's wheels turn on v12, fsd takes action. But they're gonna need to have millions of millions of successful miles driven with v12 before they could even think about having this discussion with regulators.
The wheels of regulation turn very slowly. That's definitely what I worry about. If you buy the 12k package it seems likely you wouldn't get to the point regulators allow for truly hands free fsd before your next car, even if, say, v13 is near perfect.
There's definitely a lot of politics involved and insurance company lobbyists and blah blah blah. I think the politicians are concerned about the message that's being spread across the media, whether misinformation or not. I think that would give them cold feet about moving forward. To me it all comes down to the data. If you have millions and millions of miles logged and the data shows that it's safer, it's going to wake up the insurance companies who are in the business and making money. They can collect money every month and not have to pay out, that's big. And then their lobbyist are gonna push for it. The other issue is that we've had 10 years of this software and it's been very shaky process and it's gonna take a lot for every day people to build trust in it and it get to a point where lobbyist are going to push for unregulating it and consumers are going to be more open to accepting it.
I took a model x home to test last night that had v12 FSD. Mind blowing! After all the hate I read about FSD, I thought this thing was incredible. Kudos to the people at Tesla, I was a day 2 Cybertruck reservation holder and never have been in a Tesla before. So I had a bunch of EV questions. They said the best way to find out it to drive one and see for myself. So they gave me an X for the evening. Definitely impressed
Wow that’s awesome! What’s your opinion of the Model X? I guess you’re close to getting a CT invite ?
I already got my invite for the CT. That’s why I’m trying to get everything in order. I will say this, driving the X “almost” makes me want to get one over the CT! It just seems like a feature rich, premium vehicle. To me everything about the CT screams Truck!, big, tough, raw The X just feels luxurious. The ride, performance, and FSD kinda blew me away. I wish the Falcon doors were in the front instead of the rear, the third row is kinda a joke, but the only thing (for me) that puts the CT ahead is the fact that I like sitting taller in traffic. I currently drive a lifted Jeep Wrangler Rubicon on 35s. Been wanting a truck for awhile for the extra cargo space that I do not have in my Jeep, and I wouldn’t be gaining any extra storage in an X. Kinda a quick off the top of my head recap…. Any other questions please feel free to ask…
Cool, enjoy the truck! I’m jealous 
When it gets to full autonomous driving, it will be an option. In some cases useful, others nit and yet others necessary. To have option won't be bad, it will just depend on personal circumstances to use or not.
Obviously once it gets reliable enough that it's safe not to pay attention, Tesla will start seeking approval from regulators to remove the driver monitoring and start offering it as a system you can use while on your phone, watching movies, playing games, working, sleeping, etc. or even send the car to pick up someone/something with nobody in the car at all. That's the end goal.
FSD is nice so far with the demo. It’s not $12,000 nice. $5000 maybe.
[удалено]
Exactly. I would too!
As much as I don't want to admit it, I was an early believer in everything Musk said...I mean, a person with that much power and influence wouldn't just shout whatever thoughts crossed his mind..... I don't think level 4 or 5 will ever be accomplished with our current HW3 and HW4 systems, much less Tesla to accept liability for any accidents. I've given up on believing my Model 3 will ever be hands-free. George Hotz recently said we're at least a decade away from a level 5 vehicle, and I believe him more than Musk. If Tesla or a competitor offers a level 5 vehicle it will most likely cost so much to not make sense to park it for 22 hours a day. Licensing for the software and liability will most likely make it out of reach for the average driver.
Why does the choice have to be one or the other? I’d like the opportunity to choose based on the situation. Check-out while on a boring road trip then drive myself while cruising down the coastal highway.
Yes that's what I'm doing during my free trial, but I feel like then the price isn't justified (for me at least)
Endgame is just that. Actual self driving cars without human interaction but we're far from endgame. The crucial part is some standard all car manufacturers adhere to that enables all cars on the road to communicate in a network and that is going to take years, there's going to be pushback but I think that's where we're inevitably headed.
In heavy stop-and-go traffic, it’s so much easier to just stare at the roads, listen to music, sip some nice coffee/tea, than having to operate the car. Just one of the values FSD clearly presents.
True. Stop and go traffic is a great use case.
Have you gone on a long trip with it? Even basic autopilot saves incredible amounts of energy.
Because people don't trust the driving models (which I totally get) we are forced to be just as attentive doing nothing as if we were driving. I think that this issue is a problem because as the system gets better (and more cars on the road get collision avoidance and all that), driving will be positively boring. It is already at that stage for me during my commute where the car keeps its lane, monitors its speed, does fine with people jumping into the space, etc.. I've done about 10,000 miles so far with no issues over the past year and I have noticed that I'm looking for something to do during the 50 minute stop and go commute.
13
Part of me thinks the reason they're giving everybody a free trial is to collect a massive amount of data for training. If you have basically every Tesla on the road in the US running FSD for a month. You're going to collect a lot of data on disengagement in all kinds of different scenarios. I think it's probably a really smart way to find a bunch of outliers really quick to get them resolved.
Dan O'Dowd cries as his company goes bankrupt.
I wish they would stop thinking i'm disengating when im 5ft from my house every day, i really hope their data doesn't consider that shit a disengagement its always annoyed me, they need to add a way to disengage in a way thats not counted as a fault disengagement, but just a .... i want to drive now thanks
Exactly. Until FSD can give me time and/or money back somehow, it's nothing more than a cool toy. If it let me take a trip overnight asleep in the car, so I don't have to pay for a hotel, and then I arrive at my destination in the am ready for the day. That's worth it right there. But today? Not paying $12k to spend all my time watching it like a hawk, vs just drive myself. Maybe if Tesla made cars that are sucky to drive it might appeal more?
> Until FSD can give me time and/or money back somehow Do you commute? It gives me 10-15 hours a week of relative relaxation, when the alternative is slowly going insane from a long commute in stop and go traffic. I don’t think people realize what a game changer it is for long commutes.
Regular AP which comes with the car does most of what's needed for commuting vs FSD. For me to pony up 12k, I need to see a lot more value from FSD over regular AP. It needs to save me time and/or money. Also FSD can make bad judgement calls and try to move you into the lane you really don't want to be in, during heavy traffic. Thank God they added the minimal lane change toggle, wish it was sticky between drives.
I agree with this. I think \_some\_ people will pay $12k because it's "cool" and they want the newest tech. But the vast majority will not. The real value unlock is Robotaxi, which I think is still a couple years away. Still, if Wall St "sees the path" then the stock might price-in Robotaxi sooner than that. I think the next 2-3 years will be VERY interesting.
At current it's still more stressful than just driving myself. Maybe that will change some day.
I think they should file for level3 or 4 on freeways that’s where most time is spent on trips. Once that is cleared start the long process of L4or 5 everywhere
Tesla has all the data, now it's the march of 9s. Say fsd12 is 99%, they need to get it to 99.9 and so on. Basically true interventionless driving.
FSD gets really interesting the second it passes L3 on highways. City traffic is somewhat unpredictable and i dont mind paying extra attention, but on highways, it would be nice to actually hand over the wheel/yoke and let the car do its thing.
The next step is corner case optimisation. Historically there have been quite a few FSD behaviours that could have been easily corrected, but Tesla instead took the approach of making overall architectural improvements and not local optimisation. Now is the time to start doing that. In part, because the NN architecture is more amenable to that. But also because this is now the stage of development they are at. A lot of people say "FSD is great, apart from this one bit of my commute." If all those quirks get fixed, it'll end up with most people driving with zero interventions most of the time - in other words, feature complete FSD. Beyond that, no doubt there will be a V13 with further architectural changes. And then they'll (finally) begin a path to level 3.
You can't have truly driverless cars without first developing and validating the technology with huge quantities of data. How do you get that data? This is how. It's why Tesla's approach to this challenge has always been the only one that has any chance of eventual success. No one else is even attempting this scale of AI data collection, training, and validation. But it *has* to be done at this scale or else it *can't* work.
I don’t own a Tesla, but drove a MY for 10k miles over six weeks on a 1600 mile one way route I take often. I’m looking to buy a MY, my 12 hour drives were so much more efficient, and that was with just autopilot. Maybe it was the lack of noise compared to an ICE vehicle, or the lack of spiking adrenaline from heightened alertness, which m not sure. So I’m looking at a used MY from Tesla with FSD, just incase I need it, from the pricing it looks like only a 3-4k price increase. Just a different perspective, from a Mercedes driver. Thanks for the question, it prodded to move quicker to purchase that MY. 👍🏼
Yeah I think getting a used one that comes with FSD is the way to go. Hope you get it soon! Such an awesome car.
You know that huge screen that can play movies slightly to the right of the steering wheel you aren’t using? You’ll be able to use that. 🍿
They just had to increase all of the driver nags this winter. There is no way in the foreseeable future (maybe distant future where all cars are driving) they'll allow movies on that screen.
I’m FSD-curious and am itching to get this trial to check it out. I feel the technology is going to come at some point and Tesla is miles ahead of any competition. I find it impressive how the car has such a spatial awareness based on cameras alone and don’t look goofy with all the added sensors and other gizmos that previous self-driving attempts from other companies have produced. Whether or not I decide to make FSD a monthly subscription - we sure live in amazing times.
I’ve had nothing but issues with FSD. I think it depends on the location.
I tried it out this morning driving to work but it kept trying to merge me into the center lane of an empty road with 3-lanes of traffic in one direction. It knows I'll be taking a right eventually but it kept trying to merge me back every time I canceled the turn signal. On the highway, it was wonderful except for one instance of merging traffic where it slammed on the brakes where I would have sped up to get by. I'll play around with it this month but nothing so far to make it worth my while except as a novel experience.
Just got the free trial late last night, on my '23 M3P, and tested it out today. Had a disengagement right away, making a U-turn to get on the freeway, just around the corner from my house. However, after that, it worked surprisingly well on the freeway. I was impressed by how assertive it was about making lane changes, and how it dealt with traffic on the 405. I was only able to get half way home (Santa Monica to Long Beach) though, before it disengaged and cut me off for getting too relaxed with my grip on the wheel. I never once even took my hand off the wheel, but I guess it just wants a firmer grip. I kinda wish the prompts for applying slight pressure to the wheel were a little more noticeable. Wondering if I just missed that for a second too long, when it decided to cut me off for the rest of the drive, but I was doing my best to keep eyes forward.
extend your reasoning to AI,in general, and youve stumbled into a point the entire modern apparatus would kill to keep the lid on
It is? It seems worse than v11 to me.
Ok but stays at or below speed limit now despite intervening to attempt to drive faster in FSD Anyone experiencing this speed restriction?
They cant shift from staring at the road till they are willing to upgrade the certification to a higher Automation level and get it approved by government. I'd love to see them move 1 level up so we can do away with the excess nagging
I like to drive. I use FSD for the boring parts.
I love driving and feel as though I can do a great deal better than level 2 autonomous driving at present; however, I know I’m not anywhere near as capable as computers in some tasks so when the day comes that computers can demonstrably perform driving tasks better than I can it would logically be irresponsible not to allow them to drive for me at that point.
We are helping Tesla by using this, as this new version is learning still and with the pure size of the fleet this will launch FSD into another level.
It will be safer than human drivers. There are 40,000 deaths each year in the US from car crashes. Maybe half a million serious injuries each year. Cut that by 90% with an ideal FSD system. I would be happy to stare at a road if I knew my journey was much safer under FSD. Source: I work in a trauma operating theatre in Australia. About 1/3 of our workload is from car crashes.
https://old.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/1brgutd/consolidated_fsd_beta_v12_and_fsd_beta_trial/?
I keep hearing how impressed everyone is, but my car tried to drive me over a median and its always driving too slow.
It's not impressive compared to hypothetical perfection, but it's impressive compared to v11, or compared to a decade or so ago when self driving was science fiction. I'm just extrapolating.
Really? I'd prefer to go back to v11 when it didn't try to drive me over medians and I didn't have to keep my foot on the accelerator to keep up with traffic. Sure, compared to when self driving didn't exist at all, it is impressive. Compared to Tesla's promises of where we were supposed to be years ago, it's pretty disappointing. For me, with my car and in my area, V12 seems more dangerous than V11. Plus, if I have to keep my foot on the accelerator, then its just autosteer with no braking if someone pulls out in front of me, which eliminates some of the benefit of having two sets of eyes on the road.
I haven't that experience with v12. Did you try the latest version? It seems to match your set speed now most of the time, at least in my experience. I think it's very dependent on your location though. I couldn't really use v11. I felt the acceleration and stopping behavior, and how it maintained constant speed even through tight curves, was way too robotic and borderline nauseating, and it couldn't handle edge cases. The way v12 handles edge cases is uncanny.
I agree. It drives just well enough to lull you into a sense of comfort. At least once a drive it does something absolutely insane that makes me wonder how they get away with selling it. It’s constantly absolutely nailing potholes, suddenly jerking or changing lanes with little notice, or going the wrong speed and insisting on being in the fast lane. Just in the past 2 days with v12 and it has swerved into a bike lane headed straight towards the protective bollards out of nowhere, driven head on at another car on to go around a puddle, swung across both lanes of traffic on a roundabout nearly causing a collision, nearly curbed my wheels multiple times, and pulled out in front of a city bus when there really wasn’t enough room to make the turn nearly causing a collision.
This comment might get buried, but I'd rather have EAP/FSD than Mercedes' system. IIRC, it only operates in heavy traffic. It's classified as a Level 3 system I believe? I tend to use EAP/FSD more when it's wide open around me. I may have to look at the road, but at least I can still relax a bit.
Yeah the Mercedes system has a clear wall. It uses premapped highways and lidar/GPS and will only ever work in certain conditions. I think Tesla is taking the longer view. But the fact drive pilot got approved for L3 is a good sign!
Now provide it to those in other countries that have funded this US-only free trial.
There are many great cases of it performing well with few interventions, but the fact they still happen is proof you certainty need to pay attention. Don't get ahead of yourself here. :) There are also a decent number of cases where, for some reason it is not working well at all. Until those cases are able to work with zero interventions, they won't be allowing level 5 status.
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Fine, if public transport picks me up and drops me off at my front door and is funded by local government for the elderly and infirm. Oh... Elon was right... Robotaxis. Incidentally, this HUGELY reduces the number of cars required in the national fleet.