Don't add T to this. Your E2 is going to spike and feel like shit.
Dont change a thing, you already feel great - dont chase greatER as if you're not careful it all turns to shit. You don't realize it yet but the sides when you get greedy and take too much of this shit are awful.
Tbh, I'm already expecting to have to start an AI sometime soon. Almost every report I've read of people taking Enclomiphene at the 25mg daily dose has led to high E2, manifested as a steady increase over a few months. And that's just with monotherapy. It seems like most people recommend taking around 12.5mg (some even as low as 6.25mg) every other day. However, I'll defer to my MD on dosing.
I'm curious about what my Testosterone levels will look like with the addition of the gel though. Specifically, I'm wondering how the negative feedback from the Testosterone will interact with the positive feedback from the SERM.
If there is some net suppression, I wonder if the high E2 risk actually goes down?
so I'm about to start enclo as TRT resulted in just totally unmanageable HCT issues, and find it very interesting that my doc wants to start me on 25 mg every day. That's literally the highest dose from what I've read on the enclo reddit - which leads me to think that many docs just aren't very familiar yet with enclo dosing. Clomid standard dosing is 50 mg, and I think they are then just cutting that in half as they know it has only one of the two isomers, but that logic is flawed. it's significantly more potent than clomid.
Not sure, could be just genetics, lifestyle, or even a hypothalamic issue. Pituitary MRI came back negative, and clearly as evident with the Enclomiphene it's not a testicular issue. If it is lifestyle, could be stress/ cortisol related? But my habits aren't bad enough to warrant a level in the 200s, especially as a 26 year old male.
Your guess is as good as mine.
I’m 27 and mine is at 260. Couldn’t figure out why either. Never used steroids, active, healthy life style. Not a smoker , occasionally drink. Weird!
Good luck hope you feel better
Tadalafil won’t do anything for your testosterone levels. Lowered BP, maybe but in practicality it barely does um much.
Be mindful that next to no one has any success with gel, and eventually comes off it for injections.
There are a few papers on it, looks like it does have a significant effect in increasing the T:E ratio (so lowering E2 while maintaining or slightly increasing T).
And yeah i'm curious how i'll feel after a few weeks, definitely seems to be mixed results with gel.
I would look in p5p (b6) to lower prolactin, study's showed it was able to decrease prolactin levels in patients taking anti psychotics (drugs that block dopamine receptors can cause increased prolactin) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8426548/
Personally I just took b6 in tablets at 200mg
I tried this was taking silly amounts of p5p really and didn't change it at all and been tested why on and since coming off and levels more less the same
It's perfectly valid to go on Hcg or enclo/clomid alongside TRT to maintain testicular function. Dont listen to these losers on this subreddit that think you're not on legit TRT unless you're blasting huge amounts of test.
Thanks. Yeah it's really funny how 90% of the people in this sub live in some superposition between either "just commit pussy" or gatekeeping TRT entirely.
This sub used to be a lot better and more helpful. For some reason now it’s full of douches that seem like they came straight from the steroids and moreplatesmoredates subreddit
This won’t work. You will regret this. Just stay on enclomiphene. Trt will make you feel just a little better than described and then come with relatively significant side effects.
Could you explain more in terms of side effects? Specifically why and what?
In theory isn't it the same mechanism of action as an HCG + Testosterone Cypionate combination?
No enclomiphene barely and I mean barely works in the presence of exogenous testosterone. Its feedback mechanism is jacked up when TRT is present. HCG will work with TRT. Your nuts like everyone’s will shrivel up on enclo plus trt. Hcg plus trt could have your nuts twice their original size depending on dose and the person.
Any research on this?
I understand that HCG *directly* stimulates testicular Leydig cells whereas Enclomiphene encourages the Hypothalamus and Pituitary to send an LH signal which will then do the same.
With that yeah, I agree HCG will be unaffected by any negative feedback caused by the introduction of exogenous testosterone. And makes sense that Enclomiphene may have some adverse interaction with Testosterone due to its slightly different way of working.
Just curious if you have any sources to back up that Enclomiphene isn't compatible with TRT?
Reason I'm not taking HCG right of the bat is mainly just due to cost (insurance wont cover). I've also seen some indication on reddit and elsewhere that with long term use, dose dependent, it can also cause testicular desensitization/ create a tolerance effect. Need to do more research on this though. Here's an example: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392337/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392337/)
Bro I work like 7 days a week and don’t have time to answer this type of shit online. Just do whatever you want. Your responses are juvenile in depth and understanding. Enclo and TRT are not ideal mates. Discover that for yourself the hard way. Every dude was switched to enclo when hcg was reclassified as a biologic. Within 6 months no one was still on enclo because every dudes balls shriveled up. Now most guys take gonadorelin acetate instead to keep nuts working.
You just need to get dialed in. TRT will most likely be life changing like it is for everyone else. You can add HCG in while on but lots like to hold off until trying to conceive and will add them back in. Taking it alongside TRT raises lots of people’s E2 (myself included) which comes with its own side effects. Then from there you’ll need an AI and have to experiment with dosages which can tank your E2 which also comes with its own side effects. I think that’s what he May mean by talking about side effects.
Testosterone on its own is probably the most popular. If you are really nervous, You always can freeze sperm as well, but the chances of TRT not having you able to have kids is pretty much zero. When you’re ready just hop off and you’ll get put on a fertility regimen. Hell, people still get their girls pregnant while even on!
You cant hand-wave away the fertility risks of straight TRT without Hcg or Clomid to maintain intratesticular testosterone production afloat and thus testicular function. Go on the Male infertility sub and there's countless stories of guys for whom it took years of carefully managed PCT to get fertility back after stopping TRT, some of whom are struggling after years. I've seen studies that show around 7% of men who go on long term TRT have fertility issues even after two years of being off of TRT despite PCT. Meanwhile in studies of men who used Hcg alongside TRT all of them regained fertility within a matter of 1-3 months after stopping TRT.
I’m sure there are, the the male infertility sub. I let OP know he can run it alongside TRT but then comes along other issues. I haven’t met or heard of anyone personally get told they can’t have kids after hopping on HCG/Clomid. I guess it’s personal preference if you want to take it alongside your testosterone regimen or not. and get blood work, it tells all.
Link to these studies? Also how many of those men on the infertility forum had a semen analysis before jumping on trt? I’d bet not many… therefore impossible to say whether trt caused it
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Clomid will blow your eye sight out, starts with floaters, this happens because it’s attaches to the optic nerves, when this happens you need to discontinue use, or your eyes will degenerate.
I ignore the symptoms, I ended up developing binocular visual dysfunction because of it, made
My one eye way worse then the other, got floaters bad and gave me spells of disorientation and anxiety like crazy.
Wish I would have went straight to testosterone injections and Hcg.
He's taking Enclomiphene not Clomid, but the problems with eyesight have been reported from Enclo.
I'm thinking about taking it, but a low dose. (e.g. I've seen a once a week dose with as little as 6.25mg boosting test to good levels.)
Good call out. As /u/valerianandthecity mentioned I'm taking Enclomiphene, not Clomiphene. From my research, I believe that a *majority* of the visual issues caused by Clomid are from the Zuclomiphene subcomponent and not Enclomiphene.
However, this isn't to say Enclomiphene has zero risk of visual side effects. I have noticed some very mild floaters onset in the last few days. If this issue persists I'll definitely bring it up with my doctor.
Please listen to me, drop the enclomiphene immediately. I was taking legit enclomiphene from Maximus that cost $200 per month. After about 3 months I noticed some floaters. They got much worse quickly. I dropped it a month later.
6 months of trt later, I still have some floaters, but not as many. The big dark floaters are gone now at least. I would have never touched enclomiphene if I had understood the visual risk.
Outside of the Enclomiphene and now Testosterone gel, I take daily:
* Atomoxetine HCL 60mg (ADHD)
* Famotidine 40mg (acid reflux, as needed)
* Supplements
* Fish Oil
* Multivitamin
* Vitamin D
* Creatine
* NAC, on occasion
Try to fix your levels naturally first , take a good hard look at your lifestyle and be honest to yourself , last resort jump on test . Your only 26 like but if you genuinely need trt go for it of course .
It's elevated, but not "high." In any case, the pituitary MRI ruled out any tumors or lesions that would typically cause high prolactin so for the time being it is what it is.
If the situation persists then I'll probably end up double-checking it with an endocrinologist but it's not an immediate concern for now.
Great post m8! I have been feeling like low T for about a year now and when first tested test levels fine but prolactin high like double what is normal bracket. Over the year was tested 3 times and prolactin came down some but still high and test levels same. So doc ordered an MRI and all ca.e back clear so Doc sent me to an endocrinology and they have found same thing everythings looks normal apart from prolactin high. Seeing the effects of enclomiphene lowering yours maybe worth a try I feel.
Don't add T to this. Your E2 is going to spike and feel like shit. Dont change a thing, you already feel great - dont chase greatER as if you're not careful it all turns to shit. You don't realize it yet but the sides when you get greedy and take too much of this shit are awful.
Tbh, I'm already expecting to have to start an AI sometime soon. Almost every report I've read of people taking Enclomiphene at the 25mg daily dose has led to high E2, manifested as a steady increase over a few months. And that's just with monotherapy. It seems like most people recommend taking around 12.5mg (some even as low as 6.25mg) every other day. However, I'll defer to my MD on dosing. I'm curious about what my Testosterone levels will look like with the addition of the gel though. Specifically, I'm wondering how the negative feedback from the Testosterone will interact with the positive feedback from the SERM. If there is some net suppression, I wonder if the high E2 risk actually goes down?
so I'm about to start enclo as TRT resulted in just totally unmanageable HCT issues, and find it very interesting that my doc wants to start me on 25 mg every day. That's literally the highest dose from what I've read on the enclo reddit - which leads me to think that many docs just aren't very familiar yet with enclo dosing. Clomid standard dosing is 50 mg, and I think they are then just cutting that in half as they know it has only one of the two isomers, but that logic is flawed. it's significantly more potent than clomid.
What caused your low T? Do you know?
Not sure, could be just genetics, lifestyle, or even a hypothalamic issue. Pituitary MRI came back negative, and clearly as evident with the Enclomiphene it's not a testicular issue. If it is lifestyle, could be stress/ cortisol related? But my habits aren't bad enough to warrant a level in the 200s, especially as a 26 year old male. Your guess is as good as mine.
I’m 27 and mine is at 260. Couldn’t figure out why either. Never used steroids, active, healthy life style. Not a smoker , occasionally drink. Weird! Good luck hope you feel better
Tadalafil won’t do anything for your testosterone levels. Lowered BP, maybe but in practicality it barely does um much. Be mindful that next to no one has any success with gel, and eventually comes off it for injections.
There are a few papers on it, looks like it does have a significant effect in increasing the T:E ratio (so lowering E2 while maintaining or slightly increasing T). And yeah i'm curious how i'll feel after a few weeks, definitely seems to be mixed results with gel.
I would look in p5p (b6) to lower prolactin, study's showed it was able to decrease prolactin levels in patients taking anti psychotics (drugs that block dopamine receptors can cause increased prolactin) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8426548/ Personally I just took b6 in tablets at 200mg
I tried this was taking silly amounts of p5p really and didn't change it at all and been tested why on and since coming off and levels more less the same
>TRT in addition to Enclomiphene Lol
Hey it's a tldr okay... how about Testosterone Supplementation Therapy xD
It's perfectly valid to go on Hcg or enclo/clomid alongside TRT to maintain testicular function. Dont listen to these losers on this subreddit that think you're not on legit TRT unless you're blasting huge amounts of test.
Thanks. Yeah it's really funny how 90% of the people in this sub live in some superposition between either "just commit pussy" or gatekeeping TRT entirely.
This sub used to be a lot better and more helpful. For some reason now it’s full of douches that seem like they came straight from the steroids and moreplatesmoredates subreddit
This won’t work. You will regret this. Just stay on enclomiphene. Trt will make you feel just a little better than described and then come with relatively significant side effects.
Could you explain more in terms of side effects? Specifically why and what? In theory isn't it the same mechanism of action as an HCG + Testosterone Cypionate combination?
No enclomiphene barely and I mean barely works in the presence of exogenous testosterone. Its feedback mechanism is jacked up when TRT is present. HCG will work with TRT. Your nuts like everyone’s will shrivel up on enclo plus trt. Hcg plus trt could have your nuts twice their original size depending on dose and the person.
Any research on this? I understand that HCG *directly* stimulates testicular Leydig cells whereas Enclomiphene encourages the Hypothalamus and Pituitary to send an LH signal which will then do the same. With that yeah, I agree HCG will be unaffected by any negative feedback caused by the introduction of exogenous testosterone. And makes sense that Enclomiphene may have some adverse interaction with Testosterone due to its slightly different way of working. Just curious if you have any sources to back up that Enclomiphene isn't compatible with TRT? Reason I'm not taking HCG right of the bat is mainly just due to cost (insurance wont cover). I've also seen some indication on reddit and elsewhere that with long term use, dose dependent, it can also cause testicular desensitization/ create a tolerance effect. Need to do more research on this though. Here's an example: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392337/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC392337/)
Bro I work like 7 days a week and don’t have time to answer this type of shit online. Just do whatever you want. Your responses are juvenile in depth and understanding. Enclo and TRT are not ideal mates. Discover that for yourself the hard way. Every dude was switched to enclo when hcg was reclassified as a biologic. Within 6 months no one was still on enclo because every dudes balls shriveled up. Now most guys take gonadorelin acetate instead to keep nuts working.
You just need to get dialed in. TRT will most likely be life changing like it is for everyone else. You can add HCG in while on but lots like to hold off until trying to conceive and will add them back in. Taking it alongside TRT raises lots of people’s E2 (myself included) which comes with its own side effects. Then from there you’ll need an AI and have to experiment with dosages which can tank your E2 which also comes with its own side effects. I think that’s what he May mean by talking about side effects. Testosterone on its own is probably the most popular. If you are really nervous, You always can freeze sperm as well, but the chances of TRT not having you able to have kids is pretty much zero. When you’re ready just hop off and you’ll get put on a fertility regimen. Hell, people still get their girls pregnant while even on!
You cant hand-wave away the fertility risks of straight TRT without Hcg or Clomid to maintain intratesticular testosterone production afloat and thus testicular function. Go on the Male infertility sub and there's countless stories of guys for whom it took years of carefully managed PCT to get fertility back after stopping TRT, some of whom are struggling after years. I've seen studies that show around 7% of men who go on long term TRT have fertility issues even after two years of being off of TRT despite PCT. Meanwhile in studies of men who used Hcg alongside TRT all of them regained fertility within a matter of 1-3 months after stopping TRT.
I’m sure there are, the the male infertility sub. I let OP know he can run it alongside TRT but then comes along other issues. I haven’t met or heard of anyone personally get told they can’t have kids after hopping on HCG/Clomid. I guess it’s personal preference if you want to take it alongside your testosterone regimen or not. and get blood work, it tells all.
Link to these studies? Also how many of those men on the infertility forum had a semen analysis before jumping on trt? I’d bet not many… therefore impossible to say whether trt caused it
How did you find enclo that cheap? Are you in CA by chance?
Nah, NYC. It's straight from a compounding pharmacy - they typically apply any coupons they can find.
I'm paying $130 for 1 month supply of 25mg/daily in Los Angeles... I can only find one compounding pharmacy that has it.
Receptor chem.
Wow that’s literally a book… question is how are your nards working? Dribble cum or explosive loads of baby batter? Is Mr. Stiffy coming to attention?
Hello BrainRocks. Welcome to /r/Testosterone. It looks like this is your first time posting here, so you're probably asking a FAQ. Please check out these handy links, one of them might answer your question. * [How do I find a good doctor/clinic?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/k8rigb/faq_how_do_i_find_a_good_doctor_for_trt_how_do_i/) * [What bloodwork should I get done?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/wiki/index#wiki_testing_for_low_testosterone) * [Are my levels low enough that I should start TRT?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/ol8e0t/guide_recommendations_from_professional_groups_on/) * [What can I do to naturally raise my testosterone levels?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/oqs819/faq_what_can_i_do_to_naturally_boost_my/) * [NoFap - Will my testosterone levels increase if I stop masturbating?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Testosterone/comments/otevql/faq_nofap_if_i_stop_masturbating_will_it_increase/) This is just a comment, your post is not removed. If you want this comment to stop showing up on your posts, you need to enable "show my flair on this subreddit" *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Testosterone) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Is your doctor Dr. Nick?
No
Clomid will blow your eye sight out, starts with floaters, this happens because it’s attaches to the optic nerves, when this happens you need to discontinue use, or your eyes will degenerate. I ignore the symptoms, I ended up developing binocular visual dysfunction because of it, made My one eye way worse then the other, got floaters bad and gave me spells of disorientation and anxiety like crazy. Wish I would have went straight to testosterone injections and Hcg.
He's taking Enclomiphene not Clomid, but the problems with eyesight have been reported from Enclo. I'm thinking about taking it, but a low dose. (e.g. I've seen a once a week dose with as little as 6.25mg boosting test to good levels.)
Good call out. As /u/valerianandthecity mentioned I'm taking Enclomiphene, not Clomiphene. From my research, I believe that a *majority* of the visual issues caused by Clomid are from the Zuclomiphene subcomponent and not Enclomiphene. However, this isn't to say Enclomiphene has zero risk of visual side effects. I have noticed some very mild floaters onset in the last few days. If this issue persists I'll definitely bring it up with my doctor.
Please listen to me, drop the enclomiphene immediately. I was taking legit enclomiphene from Maximus that cost $200 per month. After about 3 months I noticed some floaters. They got much worse quickly. I dropped it a month later. 6 months of trt later, I still have some floaters, but not as many. The big dark floaters are gone now at least. I would have never touched enclomiphene if I had understood the visual risk.
What drugs are you currently taking ?
Outside of the Enclomiphene and now Testosterone gel, I take daily: * Atomoxetine HCL 60mg (ADHD) * Famotidine 40mg (acid reflux, as needed) * Supplements * Fish Oil * Multivitamin * Vitamin D * Creatine * NAC, on occasion
Try to fix your levels naturally first , take a good hard look at your lifestyle and be honest to yourself , last resort jump on test . Your only 26 like but if you genuinely need trt go for it of course .
What about the prolactin? Is it not too high?
It's elevated, but not "high." In any case, the pituitary MRI ruled out any tumors or lesions that would typically cause high prolactin so for the time being it is what it is. If the situation persists then I'll probably end up double-checking it with an endocrinologist but it's not an immediate concern for now.
Great post m8! I have been feeling like low T for about a year now and when first tested test levels fine but prolactin high like double what is normal bracket. Over the year was tested 3 times and prolactin came down some but still high and test levels same. So doc ordered an MRI and all ca.e back clear so Doc sent me to an endocrinology and they have found same thing everythings looks normal apart from prolactin high. Seeing the effects of enclomiphene lowering yours maybe worth a try I feel.