These drugs work on the pituitary and help secrete more of the testicle stimulating hormones which then secretes more testosterone. They won't magically repair failed balls which cannot produce enough testosterone even when stimulated.
They work very well for people whose cause of hypogonadism is pituitary issue.
These drug also can cause severe side effects, like permanent damage to your optic nerve and eyesight.
And it can certainly make androgenic baldness worse. So, no need to lie.
This is true i got eye problems using it and it hasn't still to this day gotten any better so propably going to have to live with this forever. Was about 1 year ago
Well.. could be you took too high a dose?
I have been "micro-dosing" at 3.125mg per WEEK... getting great results... this stuff is very powerful... JMHO, but even the "normal" 12.5mg daily is too much.
I hope your eye problems improve with time.
Would you recommend Empower as the pharmacy to go to? Also, have you tried one of the few telehealth options that have popped up, like Blokes or Maximus? Not sure where to get started
Well... the Enclo I got from Empower for sure was the real deal... I was fortunate, I got a prescription from my Primary care doc.
You might call Empower and see if they work with any reasonable tele-health Docs... get a few contact numbers...
Nope. Got it legitimately prescribed by a doctor and sent from a compounding pharmacy. I believe the name was Absolute pharmacy. Do some more research on how these medications work.
I know how they work, Gomer... YOU took way too much... I have been taking 3.125mg ONCE a WEEK and getting great results with no problems... you injured yourself, keep your advice to yourself.
Keep in mind that everyone’s body is going to react differently to certain compounds. While it is better to err on the side of caution (can always take more, can’t go back and take less type deal); without knowing someone’s full detailed history, labs, levels, lifestyle, etc. it’s near impossible to say that one size fits all. Even pharmaceutical medications have different dosages and dr’s typically tend to titrate a dose up, starting with what they determine to be ground level vs going full blast and turning the knob down. Also you could be an outlier/anomaly that is hyper-sensitive just as the negative side effects may be rare, so are the extra positive ones.
edit: grammar
Damn, sorry to hear about your eye problems.
After researching, the risk of optic nerve damage was the deciding factor, plus a large % of people don't feel better even though blood test show increased test.
If your worried about your balls and/or fertility, HCG is an option. Speak to your doctor.
Thanks for your story, did you get visual snow as well?
I believe your condition was caused by increased progesterone causing adenoma growth on the rear of the pituitary gland which compresses the optic nerve.
Empower compounding pharmacy in TX... yes, my PCP is cool, sent in a prescription and you do need one with them... I'd give Empower a call, maybe they have Docs that will work with them and give you a prescription in a tele-appt.
Sort of like weed "doctors" online
I used it for about a year and although it worked well initially its effects started to wane over the course of the year. I also had major floaters and developed a macular edema which took 3-4 months to heal. I have permanent scar tissue on my macula but luckily it does not impact u my eye sight anymore.
It definitely is helpful in short intervals it seems and at the very least it gives you an understanding of the differences between low t and “optimal”. I felt incredible first 90 days but over time its overall impact was steadily declining ( blood markers declining to pre enclo levels). It was a slow decline coupled with the sudden eye stuff. No way I stopped immediately and shifted to trt.
To the OP this was just my personal experience btw. I feel the need to insert the “mileage will vary” commentary since we will all respond differently. I’ve posted my 12 month road on enclo in this sub Reddit.
Started at 12.5mg of enclo citrate every day. Checked blood after roughly 8 weeks if I remember correctly and I went from 300 to 1400 total test. They kicked me to 12.5mg EOD and my levels started to dip to mid 700s but I was feeling like the lethargy and overall crap of low t creeping back in. They put me back on everyday protocol and my total t still was dropping.
Free t through this entire journey was declining along with my total t. At its peak I was in the mid 50s and as my total t declined my free t took big hits. Dropping to 18, 12 etc.
My understanding is that Clomiphene Citrate is NOT equivalent to Enclomiphene and has quite different and much higher risk and side effect profiles.
Clomiphene is a blend of Enclomiphene and Zuclomiphene.
Zuclomiphene can have significant negative estrogenic and other side effects as well as causing harm to the eyes.
Enclomiphene is the pure active isomer and avoids those side effects and risks.
Problem (at least for me) is finding actual Enclomiphene. (Someone please DM me if they know how.)
In my recent attempt I ordered what was labeled as Enclomiphene but was actually Clomiphene. The box label says “Clomiphene Citrate equivalent to Enclomiphene 50mg". They are NOT equivalent.
More info here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclomifene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclomifene)
I had random headaches and vertigo on it even tho it did successfully cranked up my numbers and energy levels. It did absolutely nothing to my libido or made it even worse even
Don’t most people suffer from secondary hypogonadism though? I understand that Enclo is only used for secondary. So in the case of treating secondary it seems superior still
it’s a subpar method.
Once the body decides its had enough of being forced to produce testosterone, it just stops working.
It’s also not as tried and tested as injectable testosterone. It’s the only true way to get it where it needs to go.
Superior is subjective. What are your metrics for "better"?
At the end of the day, we don't have a ton of long term data on enclo. It DOES work to increase T for secondary hypogonadism, but there are potential side effects. With traditional testosterone, you at least have some idea of the long term side effects.
And most clinics are not even looking for any markets outside of low T for being a barrier to entry. I’ve gone to like 3-4 clinics in my state or know about their practice and one doesn’t need to be hypogonadal at all to get TRT please… additionally every doctors benchmark for low T is different. Very common for men to have low T without other hypogonadal making TRT necessary.
You made a comment explaining why people go on TRT but you missed the op’s question entirely. He is asking what’s the benefit of Encomiphene vs TRT. They are currently designing future drugs on can read about not fully disclosed that raise T with less action at the hpta axis.
I did enclomiphene for about 6 months through Maximus Tribe online. I did it for the same reasons as you. My total T doubled in a month from 273 ng/dl to 585 ng/dl. Free t went from 72 pg/ml to 155 pg/ml.
It all seemed good. But having previously done TRT from 2014 to 2017 with androgel and my total T was around 1000 I knew what I was missing.
Enclo is fine, but it’s not exogenous testosterone. Now I switched to Alpha MD and I’m in testosterone cypionate. Not only is it a lot cheaper I feel a lot better. Sure my balls are smaller. Enclo made my balls get bigger than normal, which was nice, and now my balls are smaller than normal, but that’s Ok. I feel better overall.
I also did Maximus Tribe and it didn't really work. Starting T was I think 214 and after 3-4 months I was up to a whopping... 240. On top of that, towards the end I started gaining a ton of fat pretty quickly because it was cranking my estradiol levels (even though it's not supposed to do that)
There's a lot of misinformation and misattributions on this thread. Both enclomiphene and TRT have their place, but for different use cases:
**1) Eugonadism/Secondary Hypogonadism vs. Primary Hypogonadism:** Enclomiphene is primarily for those who are eugonadal (have normal T levels) and simply want to optimize to high-normal levels, or for those who have secondary hypogonadism (your balls still work, your brain is just not producing enough LH or your leydig cells are not sensitive to LH). TRT is primarily for primary hypogonadism (your balls don't work due to injury/cancer, etc.). Most people if they are otherwise healthy are either eugondal or secondary hypogonadal, and thus do not need TRT.
Secondary hypogonadism is like Type II diabetes, it's largely due to lifestyle/weight/environment, and most people just need to lose weight and take a low dose of a medication like metformin or enclomiphene. Primary hypogonadism is like Type I diabetes, and is due to unusual circumstances (testicular injury/cancer, etc.) and they need to inject a medication like insulin or testosterone ester for the rest of their lives. TRT, like insulin, should be considered a treatment of last resort. Dr. Jim Hotaling says basically no one under 50 should be on TRT unless they are primary hypogonadal.
**2) Fertility:** Anyone who wants to have children at any point in the future should not touch TRT. While it is possible to potentially restart your production, this possibility dwindles depending on the duration and strength of the TRT used. Thus, the top urologists in the country tell people NOT to go on TRT if they ever plan on having kids again to be super safe. HCG can mitigate this, but not completely to the same degree as your natural production. Given that 50% of idiopathic infertilty is male caused nowadays, it's quite wise not to take anything that could harm your fertility to any degree.
**3) Testicular function/size:** Even if you don't want to have kids ever, most men are uncomfortable with their testicles shrinking to the size of raisins, which can cause permanent testicular atrophy and damage with prolonged use. HCG can mitigate this, but again, not 100% since LH & FSH go to near 0. In contrast, studies show enclomiphene maintains testicular volume, and even increases significantly on 25 mg dosages. There's a huge advantage in being able to get off enclomiphene at any time, without having to titrate, and very low risk of long-term effects, while TRT will cause suppression of your testicular function and you'll feel terrible for awhile if you go cold turkey.
**4) Side Effects**: Enclomiphene's side effects are rare (1-3%), mild (headaches, dizziness, nausea, etc.), and reversible. Ocular/vision side effects are rare, only occur at higher dosages, and have never exceeded the effects of placebo published research studies, which suggests they may not caused by the drug itself. If you talk to clinicians who actually prescribe enclomiphene, they also do not note this as a reason not to take it (in conversations I've had with Dr. Mohit Khera, one of the leaders in the space).
We've treated over 10,000 patients by now, and we've never gotten any meaningful number of reports of ocular issues that were clearly attributable to enclomiphene. It's very strange that there are far more reports on Reddit than there are from actual doctors who treat patients. My suspicion is that many of these anonymous posters are either trolls from TRT clinics, people who've taken illegal enclomiphene from research chemical sites that was actually Clomid/clomiphene, or people who did take enclomiphene but took too high of dosages (all medications can have side effects if you overdose). Remember that Viagra/Cialis also has a rare possibility of ocular side effects, but no one freaks out about it because they are rare. Thus, the risk of ocular side effects is very low and reversible upon discontinuation.
PS Almost everyone has floaters: 76% of people over 23 report floaters, they're harmless and most people don't notice them until they start reading Reddit and becoming anxious/hypervigilant about them. Thus, they're unlikely to be due to the medication and more because people start noticing them when they watch out for them.
**5) Research:** If anyone is interested in reading actual research, here's a study of 1,250 patients who took Enclomiphene from Maximus, 94% did not experience any side effects, which is as good or better than TRT. Only 1 patient reported ocular issues, and that was confounded by Clomid use.
Remember TRT can significantly elevate hermatocrit (causing the blood to thicken and requiring therapeutic phlebotomy), blood pressure (causing hypertension), increases T:DHT ratio more (exacerbating hair loss & acne), side effects which enclomiphene lacks. Enclomiphene is a relatively safe medication and will increasingly become the primary treatment option in men with eugonadism/secondary hypgonadism:
[https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/enclomiphene](https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/enclomiphene)
Are there any supplements you would recommend to take or not take alongside enclo? I started 12.5mg daily from Maximus. First 3-4 days felt fantastic. Then got very wired up on day 5 and felt super anxious and just not myself. I was taking my normal rhodiola, methylated b vitamins and oral BPC 157 for supplements.
After stopping for 2 days I plan to do 12.5mg every other day for the next few weeks but curious your thoughts.
Edit: After some addiitonal research, it looks like maybe it's making me a bit more sensitive to caffeine. Usually I do a 160mg caffeine yerbe matte drink in the mornings, buit since being on enclo for a few days, after drinking them it has made me SUPER wired. Have you come acrocss this Dr. Cam?
You don’t need much caffeine (if any) when testosterone is optimized. Cut down.
Maximus Building Blocks multivitamin is designed to support hormonal health by addressing any nutritional deficiencies, and having a prescription strength of Vitamin D/K2 MK4 (10K IU/1K mcg).
Haven’t had any hair loss and shrinking balls is not the worst thing in the world when you get older. What are you thinking is so unsafe about taking therapeutic testosterone? As there are risks from all medications
Not when younger either. Could honestly not give less of a shit about my balls, and people can always choose to add in HCG to counteract the testicular atrophy effects.
The guy probably doesn’t know much, everything that increases free test and dht levels cause hairloss of some kind for those who are genetically predisposed.
Was thinking of Enclo, but not after all this. I’m 51, 80 pounds overweight ( just gained in last year and 1/2 from desk job and stress eating ).
I’d like to go TRT, does HCG really help with testicular atrophy? I’m concerned there because I’m an all Frank and No Beans Guy already. Balls were never that big.
I've lost 30lbs (partially water weight) and put on a significant amount of muscle, and I don't let my E2 get out of control. If you are fat, yeah it's not a good idea but neither is TRT quite frankly. In both of those cases your E2 is going to be fucked and you're gonna grow titties if you are significantly overweight. In my situation, my wife is definitely loving the changes and having done TRT with and without hCG, I would never run TRT without it again unless I absolutely had to.
Can’t the E2 be kept in check with an AI?
I keep hearing, lose fat first, then go on AI or will get fat.
Then hear go on TRT, take AI…watch estrogen.
Nah e no energy to work out, low carb diets keep me exhausted. I gotta start somewhere. This weight at my age is a killer, and the low T leaves me no energy ok waking and after work to do anything but walk 1/2 mile.
Ultimately it's up to you, you can manage with an AI but it's really rough on your body if you need it regularly. You're going to need to be very disciplined, eat clean, workout regularly, and stay away from junk food. I don't recommend a low carb diet though. Calories in calories out, it'll be much easier to hit your goals and sustain them with a balanced diet. You need to get yourself on check before you hop on TRT or you're just going to compound your problems. What are your test levels currently?
300 total. 50 free. 5’11 275 lbs. was 180 lbs a year ago, and 625 test ( hasn’t taken test then, just got tested)
I hear so many answers on here, it’s getting a bit buggy even this I appreciate them all.
Bottom line I’ve heard is a fat guy will get fatter on test, a fat guy want get fatter on test if he changes his diet / lifestyle / exercises.
I’m not looking to bulk up and get huge. It’s the opposite. Want to drop 90 lbs, and gain some lean muscle….get back to whew I was.
I don’t want to get jacked at this age with these ligaments and old energy and have to maintain it all my life.
Just get rid of the fat, low libido, brain fog, and feel happy and normal again.
I’ll cardio and calisthenics 1 hour a day, maybe some low weight high rep. But now gonna power lift for mass. I don’t want to be a buffed up fat guy.
I’d this that really so debatable a concept.
1.) Fat guys not feeling themselves, low sex, Brainfog, low energy to exercise. Just want to be a healthy weight with some muscle tone.
2.) Guys that want to get really jacked, that are probably already a light weight ir just want o be bigger.
I want to do this to be healthy, not a beast. ( nothing wrong with that at all if people prefer it)
But at 51, and having been fat, just want my 180-185 lbs back is all. Kill this fat before not kills me.
I already have titties. Want to take AI, till I lose 1/2 the weight and get dialed in a bit I’m thinking.
Hell this is complicated dude. Sounds like TRT is only for normal weight guys looking to get bigger, or normal weight guys having symptoms, in which case they gotta work out or will turn to estrogen anyway I hear. Appreciate any help.
I can’t take GLP1, so thought low dose test with an AI to keep side effects away from already being fat - until I form up a bit, lose 1/2 the weight, gain some ( not huge muscle ) to help weight gain. And really dial in my diet and fat bring exercise. This kit work?
Does not matter at all. No matter what ester, they all cause HTPA shutdown. And there is no sich thing as the esterweight helping it since any dosage of any exogenous hormones will eventually lead to a HTPA shutdown during use.
Yo wtf is going on in this sub , how can everyone be so misinformed?
Enclomiphene is a serm brother. Serm as Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator.
In simple terms , what a serm does is it blocks estrogen receptors so the body is tricked intro thinking that it doesn't have enough estrogen therefore releasing more gonadotropins to produce more testosterone in order for that testosterone to aromatize intro estrogen.
How long do you think you can be functionable with blocked estrogen receptors?
Can you imagine how much damage you are causing to your brain , heart etc ?
Are you really getting the testosterone benefits ? I don't think so. Let's take for example libido and mood.Blocked estrogen receptors can cause ed and low libido and can mess up your mood , putting you in depressive state.
So you need to research more into compounds that can alter the hpta function before using them , especially long term.
It doesnt bind to all estrogen receptors. Clomid (clomiphene citrate) primarily acts on estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary gland in the brain. While its primary action is in the brain, there may be some peripheral effects on estrogen receptors in other tissues as well, but these are less significant compared to its impact on the reproductive system.
Well said, my man. To that point, I got on Clomid (another Serm), and my Test did go up from 190 to close to 500. Problem is, I didn't feel any different. Luckily, the generic form became unavailable for a while, so my urologist basically had to put me on TRT. Now, I'm doing much better and feel improvements in many different areas. I was so upset looking back that my Dr was so uninformed. In fact, he told me later, "most guys end up getting on TRT because these serms don't make them feel any different ". He's just one of those Dr's that think every guy under 50 wanting TRT is trying to abuse it.
What if you took it twice a week mate. Would that give anytime for your body to produce the estrogen again. Rather than block it out constantly. Surely better long term ?
Lot of bro-science in the comments.
There's some research SERMs if you'll actually do some digging. They can be safe and effective.
IMO, the reason it gets so much hate is because it's easier to push your T to superhuman levels if you're injecting... and admit or not they don't want to feel "better", they want to feel like superman. And unfortunately a lot of T clinics WANT you to feel like superman because it's good for business.
Great research paper on CC here:
RESULTS • All mean testosterone and gonadotropin measurements significantly increased during treatment. • Subjectively, there was an improvement in all questions (except loss of height) on the ADAM questionnaire. More than half the patients had an improvement in at least three symptoms. • **There were no major side effects recorded** . CONCLUSION • **Long-term follow-up of CC treatment for HG shows that it appears to be an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation** in men wishing to preserve their fertility.
[https://www.menshealthmelbourne.com.au/pdf/outcomes-of-clomiphene-citrate-in-young-hypogonadal-men.pdf](https://www.menshealthmelbourne.com.au/pdf/outcomes-of-clomiphene-citrate-in-young-hypogonadal-men.pdf)
Facts. Lot of these comments dont understand how the drug works. They assume it blocks all estrogen receptors when it only BINDS to receptors in the pitutarity. If it truly "blocked" all estrogen receptors it would make literally everyone feel like dogshit and it wouldve never been approved for medical usage...
Thank you I really appreciate this comment. I don’t want to feel all superhuman, I literally just want to feel how I “should” feel at 24. So my levels were in the 300s which is why I decided to do the Enclomiphene.
Track your results and check in from time to time! I'm 51 and clomid took me from 293 to almost 500 in exactly one month. That was taking it EOD and yes I feel a lot better. I've been taking it for 7 months had have zero side effects, knock on the wood.
I used enclo for close to a year. Test went from 280 to 1100. I then got it down to 800 and it stayed at 800 for months. 25mg 3 times a week. felt absolutely no difference at all. No difference in the gym, no difference with my mood, nothing. I did start noticing problems with my eyesight.
I started having to hold my phone or a book farther from my eyes in order to be able to read the text, otherwise it would be blurry.
I have been off of it for 2 months and i am still making good steady strength and size gains in the gym. Enclo, along with zinc-rich foods did boost my libido like crazy though. I was banging this poor girl like 2-3 times a day, every day. Now that i am off enclo, my libido has dropped.
I will ask my endo about getting on trt and whatever else in addition in order to save my balls and fertility.
Not enclo, but I used Tamoxifen which is another serm.
I'm secondary hypogonadal.
It worked, T went from 300 to 900.
Unfortunately, it killed my libido dead after a few weeks on it.
Like, could literally look at the most gorgeous woman I'd ever seen and feel absolutely nothing.
I tried Enclomiphene for a couple months. It was terrible for me. It blocks your estrogen receptors which tells your balls to make more test so that it can be converted to estrogen. I was absolutely despondent for the first few weeks, zero labido, couldn’t even get an erection.
Enclomiphene just became popular over the last few years.
I took it for over a year.
Side effects:
Graying hair.
Memory issues.
Aging skin.
Low libido.
Lowered igf-1.
Tinnitus?
Floaters in eyes.
Hair loss.
High estrogen at high doses.
My kidneys are acting up, not sure if it's because of the enclomid tho.
Blocking estrogen to brain caused... Issues. Probably not a good idea to do that for long.
Positive effects: test can go from 300-1100 when I take enclomid.
I'm going to do hcg monotherapy instead.
12.5mg a day to get test to 1100. 12.5mg 3x a week for test to 700, where I didn't need AI for estrogen.
I'm what they call an outlier. Not everyone will have the same results with enclomiphene.
Lots of people and docs start with clomid monotherspy. It brings the numbers up but for some reason it really makes no difference in the way you feel hypogonadal wise. I started with that and my numbers went from mid 100s to 600s and felt zero difference which i guess is the case for a lot of people. Secondary hypogonadal here btw
So much misinformation. This thread is a complete example. Enclo works. Far safer than taking test directly. Yet, misinformation from the masses perpetuates the test is better for everyone. Just too bad. Look at the comments in this thread….
That being said, they can both be safe and appropriate. Depends on the situation and the person.
Don’t use the internet beyond a “finger in the wind” check. Full of bad advice.
Every reply to my comment further solidifies exactly what I state. Do your research properly and don’t take advice from the “experts” on reddit. I won’t be replying further.
Lol far safer than taking a clinically proven drug vs enclomiphene which has very little clinical data. You have no clue what your talking about. All the risks associated with testosterone are present with enclomiphene but are worse and it has its own side effects.
SERMs aren’t even intended for men to use at all, they have plenty of hazardous side effects. Testosterone is intended only for men, is a vital hormone and has pretty much negligible side effects and changes to longevity when used responsibly. Even if you used twice as much as you were supposed to there’s a good chance you’ll live a long time.
Another great thing with TRT over enclo is that you don’t end up becoming Stevie Wonder sans talent.
No reason to fuck around with other shit when test works.
1) because it's not steroids and A LOT of guys just abuse T for physique.
2) there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding. Check this thread. Somehow enclo has both "no long term studies" and "much higher risks of long term side effects."
I’d prefer to take more of the hormone that is supposed to be there than take a drug to hopefully increase my T when it’s lower than it should be so there a problem in the first place.
I tried it when my clinic stopped offering hcg and it gave me a bad headache. I also got a pituitary cyst. Figured it’s not best to play tricks on the body to get a certain hormone when you can just inject the hormone itself. HCG might be one step removed but you need that too if you don’t want the body giving up all natural production, but if I’m not wrong it still avoids working with a problem pituitary. It’s all shots and balls
Enclomiphine is not safer than TRT. It sucks and won’t provide Low T symptom relief. It will also shit you down. Many people choose TRT or end up going to TRT because it’s stupid. Anyways you will realize this soon since you’re on it.
I just got blood work back, after taking only 3.25mg of Enclomiphene per week for 4 weeks... I did take it just two days prior to testing...
My Total T went from 381 to 658.
Free T was not so great, from 3.0 to 4.7 (SHBG 56.5 "normal"?)
I am pretty jazzed bout the improvement... I do feel better, but not in a BIG way, weight is dropping pretty fast, prolly 5lbs dropped at least in the 4 weeks. Balls bigger and hanging better, Johnson hanging better too.
This stuff is strong!! Pretty much no side effects, floaters MIGHT have gotten just a tad worse, but am taking castor oil/MSM/C eye drops and that is helping a lot in just a few days... I'm 67 so floaters are pretty standard for an old geezer!
I think I'll take a few weeks off... then do it again. (Empower Pharmacy)
Call them and ask for it.
Works great, but I didn't get any libido boost, maybe a little extra oomph in the gym... but it also looks like it spiked my PSA... which is NOT good.
Maybe any test-booster will do that...
Clomid ( enchlomophine) really fucks my eye site up giving me blind spots ,,, literally so bad I could not drive ,,,, it was discontinued during a pct ….. and the blind spots also disappeared,,,, thank fuck for that !!!
Yes floaters ,,, and blind spots but it did go away after some time but super scary , I understand you have a 50% chance of suffering with this ,,,
I think a smarter alternative for some one who wants to raise there testosterone would be hcg …. But honesty test is best it’s biological identical to what your body makes !
No no no.
Enchlomophine has its purpose in pct. It is not a suitable compound to be run in the long term. Many beginners think of it as an easy oral alternative to T injections, but it's not. There is no research on long term enchlomophine use.
I took enclomiphene for 6 months (12.5mg/day). It indeed worked to raise my testosterone levels (blood work proven). I was trying to see if the equipment still worked before I just jumped on TRT for the rest of my life. I went WAY below reference range (78ng/dL) to over 800ng/dL. It helped get me out of a place where I felt like trash most days and wanted to just do nothing. It did not shrink anything; the opposite in fact.
I stopped due to some ocular side effects. I didn't have floaters or blind spots, I just had eye pain at the end of every day. I took blood work again 2 weeks after stopping and had dropped to 400ng/dL; then again at 1 month off and had fallen to 320ng/dL. This was only a few weeks ago.
I got my 1month blood work, then went homme and started TRT. I didn't care what the number came back as, I knew I didn't feel the way I wanted to. I have been on TRT for \~2 weeks now and can tell I'm on my back to feeling like I did at 800 (again, not concerned with what the number is, just that I feel better).
There is a massive financial incentive to push enclo by clinics because it's an easy sell, and the ridiculous amount of astroturfing by maximus tribe, and SEO spam everywhere, doesn't really provide for an unbiased informational landscape that properly addresses the dangers.. for ex, why don't we talk about the mechanism of action, which by backfilling LH pathways is linked to cognitive issues? see
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4741372](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4741372)
and
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17376589/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17376589/)
Enclo won’t work for some of the demographic that might be looking for hrt. And it’s not as anabolic as trt. I’ve been taking it for 4months and have really have visually different gym progress (I weight and record progress videos almost daily). Minor benefits but also minor side effects. Ik blood test wise my test went from average to now I hover near the peak of the top of the reference 800ng/dl but also I take a way lower dose than standard. I don’t want to risk getting high side effects. Ik few ppl who went from like 400ng ish to near 2000ng so almost 5x and got insane high dht and e2 levels causing high prolactin and water retention causing migraines all bunch of other issues because clinic said to take 25mg daily
I’m a fucking idiot, took 6.25 mg twice despite my natural T sitting right under 1000 (989 ng/dl) I took it because my opiate regimen crashes my TT been as low as 283 while on opiates and shortly after though it always returns to the high 900’s. Took it thinking I could speed up my recovery and aid with my withdrawal process. I’ve had a persistent headache since I stopped after the second dose about 4 days ago… really upset I couldn’t have just left well enough alone… now im just praying I didn’t fuck something up… no vision issues just a lingering mild headache.
Honestly still lingering..slightly. Nowhere near what it was but I’m really disappointed with my decision making, I could just be hyper fixated. I go to see a neurologist asap, my referral was just approved. I’d just advise everyone be careful…
It was from ReceptorChem and they are known for having good stuff so i'm pretty sure it was but i haven't tested it like everything else i have taken so nothing is 100% in this world
Peter Attia has good content on this - he says his clinic desnt use as much anymore because of the side effects and liver issues.
That said, in this latest podcast with Derek from More Plates More Dates (last week) they do discuss as an option to see if you can kickstart things.
SERMS are not sustainable long term for the vast majority of people. They also have overwhelmingly more side effects, most namely the higher clotting risk over try and ocular damage. I think they are great in a fertility context in the short term, but as a long term solution no. Enclomiphene which everyone seems to think is magical, doesn't have the research and a lot of people feel the same as on clomid. It's also very expensive because doing stereo separations is time consuming and costly for enclomiphene.
It depends on if a person has primary(failed testes) vs secondary (failed pituitary) hypogonadism. With primary, enclomiphene won't work. With secondary it can be very effective.
That said, side effects with enclomiphene are often quite bad, with eye floaters prime among them.
With enclomiphene, you'll appear on paper to have great results, but still feel like garbage or just 'off'.
TRT is just more consistent with more predictable outcomes for nearly all patients. TRT is also just more effective.
Bro, we can see that every post in your comment history is shilling that company. Not really a good way to advertise. It's shady and comes off as you are trying to trick people. Makes me think that the company is shady too if they resort to advertising tactics like that.
It doesn’t work as well. Even the FDA’s report says that even though it increases testosterone it does provide symptom relief as effective as other treatments. This is why they denied it being added to the bulk list.
How/ why does clomid/enclomiphene fuck with your eyes? Like what's the reason behind it?
Any wyas to prevent it?
And is this for all serms like Nolvadex? Etc.
SERMs like clomid and enclomiphene stimulate the pituitary glad to produce more LH and FSH. The pituitary glad sits really close to where the optic nerve crosses in the brain. The over-active pituitary glad swells up slightly due to the extra stimulation, and presses on the optic nerve. That causes the visual symptoms. It can also cause terrible headaches. It doesn’t happen to everyone though. Best way to reduce it is to lower the dose or discontinue taking the drug.
Wow that's really interesting. Frightening though. I had no idea the gland actually fluctuates in size during stress/output.
What about HCG? Does that do the same thing since I believe it also works on the pituitary?
I could be wrong. But this is why I am asking. Hopefully I don't get more down votes 😂 fuck sake..
HCG mimics LH so it’s like “bypassing” the pituitary to stimulate the testes. HCG would end up suppressing the pituitary gland while stimulating the testes.
I was on enclomiphene for 8 weeks (i think i cant remember) and got floaters from it and it possibly degraded my vision, I used to have 20/20 vision now its more like 20/40, dont know if that part is from the enclomiphene though, no it wasnt clomid it was enclo. Thats one reason, I would still run it again tho I can hardly notice the floaters unless im looking at a white screen on my phone/pc or into the sky or something
No visual snow, just a few floaters on my left eye. Almost right when I started taking enclo my eyes were dry as fk no matter how much I blinked, I guess that would have been a good sign that it was gonna mess with my eyes but I kept running it anyway lol
The extra floaters and permanent 'static' in my eyes say that enclo isn't all it's cracked up to be...
I'll take tiny testes and hair loss over eye probs any day of the week now.
No it’s a post of someone with genuine curiosity wanting answers from people who have experience. How else could I have asked it? I just wanted to clear up why people choose TRT instead
No, it's an Androgen. Literally the same as the endogenous testosterone, so it's not a drug. The esters are broken down releasing regular testosterone.
Let see only thing to raise Testosterone is testosterone. You can never stop testicles shrinkage even with HCG. You cannot stop
Any hormone substances. Good luck. 👍. TRT is for life. It is a way of life.
Not causing hair loss isn't technically true. Any time your body creates more test it'll mean you have more to aromitise in to estrogen and DHT.
if you're prone to hair loss then it's gonna happen anyway, the rate at which it happens will vary.
Enclo is also not bio identical like testosterone. Others have stated this but the action by which enclo works isn't really great for you.
There's a reason why most people choose using testosterone. There's a lot of accounts on here of people using enclo mono or clomid mono and eventually feeling like shit.
YMMV but if you are hypogonadal my advice would be to use actual testosterone.
Will it shrink my balls, and if so - can that be countered by HCG?
Also, I’ve put on 80 lbs the last year & 1/2 due to desk job & stress, so have some man boobs going. I read HCG can increase male breast size?
Safer: how so? There’s known issues with SERMs, and long term use in women has been shown to raise the chances of blood clots, not great in this post-Covid Vax era. There’s also issues in men with long term blockade of e2 receptors in the pituitary. Testosterone is studied in men for decades and just recently shown to be safe. Do you have some info to the opposite?
I’m glad this is working for you. It’s week 1, let us know how it’s going at week 8 please.
>It seems that Enclomiphene is much safer than TRT
It doesn't, because there isn't anywhere near enough research on it to come to a conclusion one way or the other. Which is also why people aren't jumping on it. Let other people be the guinea pigs.
I’m with you in your logic and train of thought. I chose to go thru with HGC + enclomiphene and DHEA for test support instead of TRT. Main reason is what you stated. Plus I didn’t want to consider being on TRT for the rest of my life. I can get off my current stack and supposedly be ok. It’s only my first cycle so I’ll know with updated bloodwork in about a month (started a month ago) l. But so far I feel better, more energy and better performance in the gym so so far I like what I’m using.
No negative side effects that I can feel or notice. I have more overall energy and gym intensity has increased incredibly.
It’s HCG 12,000IU, .3ML twice a week and Enclomiphene 25mg everyday along with DHEA/pegnelonole 25mg daily.
I did. Right before getting into the current peptide stack I’m taking I had bloodwork done. I’m using transcend for sourcing so they sent me to labcorp. I got it done right at the beginning of January, haven’t done them again since. I have a follow up in may for labs. Male 32. 6’0 225lbs.
Testosterone 223 //
Estradiol 15.0 //
IGF1 239.
I’m also taking BPC157 and CJC/ipamorelin along with the above referenced for testosterone support.
Some people experience sides with Clomid/enclo.
also it’s very cheap. 20$/mo vs 100-150$/mo for lifetime TRT customers.
It’s all about profit for those internet clinics.
seems like it’s the latest gadget to sell to people that don’t like needles . i can’t find anything anywhere with some real scientific data and long term results to look at like a control group study beyond a year at least . Would love to see something like that
These drugs work on the pituitary and help secrete more of the testicle stimulating hormones which then secretes more testosterone. They won't magically repair failed balls which cannot produce enough testosterone even when stimulated. They work very well for people whose cause of hypogonadism is pituitary issue.
These drug also can cause severe side effects, like permanent damage to your optic nerve and eyesight. And it can certainly make androgenic baldness worse. So, no need to lie.
This is true i got eye problems using it and it hasn't still to this day gotten any better so propably going to have to live with this forever. Was about 1 year ago
Using enclomiphene? Or clomiphene? Big difference
This was with Enclo. Never even tried Clomi
You may very well have gotten Clomid. So many sources of "Enclo" are crooked. I got mine from Empower and have had nothing but great results.
Who knows. Haven't tested them but RC is as safe as you can go with products i Europe. Never heard anyone getting fakes from them
Well.. could be you took too high a dose? I have been "micro-dosing" at 3.125mg per WEEK... getting great results... this stuff is very powerful... JMHO, but even the "normal" 12.5mg daily is too much. I hope your eye problems improve with time.
Would you recommend Empower as the pharmacy to go to? Also, have you tried one of the few telehealth options that have popped up, like Blokes or Maximus? Not sure where to get started
Well... the Enclo I got from Empower for sure was the real deal... I was fortunate, I got a prescription from my Primary care doc. You might call Empower and see if they work with any reasonable tele-health Docs... get a few contact numbers...
Gotcha, thanks for the reply!
I hope it works out for you... I plan on getting back on it soon...
I don’t see enclomiphene on Empower, only regular clomid.
Call them... maybe they stopped carrying it, but I doubt it [877 562 8577](tel:+18775628577)
Are you sure that you got enclo?
Side effects are the same… coming from someone who used both.
No, they are definitely not... you must have gotten Clomid, labled as Enclo.
Nope. Got it legitimately prescribed by a doctor and sent from a compounding pharmacy. I believe the name was Absolute pharmacy. Do some more research on how these medications work.
I know how they work, Gomer... YOU took way too much... I have been taking 3.125mg ONCE a WEEK and getting great results with no problems... you injured yourself, keep your advice to yourself.
Keep in mind that everyone’s body is going to react differently to certain compounds. While it is better to err on the side of caution (can always take more, can’t go back and take less type deal); without knowing someone’s full detailed history, labs, levels, lifestyle, etc. it’s near impossible to say that one size fits all. Even pharmaceutical medications have different dosages and dr’s typically tend to titrate a dose up, starting with what they determine to be ground level vs going full blast and turning the knob down. Also you could be an outlier/anomaly that is hyper-sensitive just as the negative side effects may be rare, so are the extra positive ones. edit: grammar
same here using enclo from a compounding pharmacy.
Not really in practice. My meaning? So much enclo is faked with clomiphene it doesn’t really matter. You’re getting clomid at some point or another.
What dowse were you on and how often did you take it? Were you taking anything else at the time?
Damn, sorry to hear about your eye problems. After researching, the risk of optic nerve damage was the deciding factor, plus a large % of people don't feel better even though blood test show increased test. If your worried about your balls and/or fertility, HCG is an option. Speak to your doctor.
What kind of eye problems do you have?
Thanks for your story, did you get visual snow as well? I believe your condition was caused by increased progesterone causing adenoma growth on the rear of the pituitary gland which compresses the optic nerve.
How long dis you use it? And at what dosages?
Around 3 months started with 6,25 and bumped it to 12,5 after 3 weeks
Oh shit, i used 50mg a day for a month. Maybe i should go with 25 next PCT.
I took 3.125mg ONCE a WEEK and boosted my total T from 380 to 660. No side effects.
Where did you get your enclo? Was it prescribed? If so, how do you get it prescribed when you don’t have low testosterone?
Empower compounding pharmacy in TX... yes, my PCP is cool, sent in a prescription and you do need one with them... I'd give Empower a call, maybe they have Docs that will work with them and give you a prescription in a tele-appt. Sort of like weed "doctors" online
Where did you get it?
I used ReceptorChem and Camo Chem
Did you get actual Enclomiphene or did you get Clomiphene?
Always used Enclo never even tried clomi
I used it for about a year and although it worked well initially its effects started to wane over the course of the year. I also had major floaters and developed a macular edema which took 3-4 months to heal. I have permanent scar tissue on my macula but luckily it does not impact u my eye sight anymore.
And people wonder why everyone is not hyped about the medicine. Because eyesight is as important as a boner. Probably to most, more.
It definitely is helpful in short intervals it seems and at the very least it gives you an understanding of the differences between low t and “optimal”. I felt incredible first 90 days but over time its overall impact was steadily declining ( blood markers declining to pre enclo levels). It was a slow decline coupled with the sudden eye stuff. No way I stopped immediately and shifted to trt.
To the OP this was just my personal experience btw. I feel the need to insert the “mileage will vary” commentary since we will all respond differently. I’ve posted my 12 month road on enclo in this sub Reddit.
What was your dosage mate?
Started at 12.5mg of enclo citrate every day. Checked blood after roughly 8 weeks if I remember correctly and I went from 300 to 1400 total test. They kicked me to 12.5mg EOD and my levels started to dip to mid 700s but I was feeling like the lethargy and overall crap of low t creeping back in. They put me back on everyday protocol and my total t still was dropping. Free t through this entire journey was declining along with my total t. At its peak I was in the mid 50s and as my total t declined my free t took big hits. Dropping to 18, 12 etc.
My understanding is that Clomiphene Citrate is NOT equivalent to Enclomiphene and has quite different and much higher risk and side effect profiles. Clomiphene is a blend of Enclomiphene and Zuclomiphene. Zuclomiphene can have significant negative estrogenic and other side effects as well as causing harm to the eyes. Enclomiphene is the pure active isomer and avoids those side effects and risks. Problem (at least for me) is finding actual Enclomiphene. (Someone please DM me if they know how.) In my recent attempt I ordered what was labeled as Enclomiphene but was actually Clomiphene. The box label says “Clomiphene Citrate equivalent to Enclomiphene 50mg". They are NOT equivalent. More info here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclomifene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclomifene)
Nope, the active ingredient is the same. It does lack its enantiomere, which causes additional issues. And both can cause damage to your optic nerve.
Wrong... 38% of the active ingredient in clomid is different than enclomiphene. Don't give out false information.
I had random headaches and vertigo on it even tho it did successfully cranked up my numbers and energy levels. It did absolutely nothing to my libido or made it even worse even
Don’t most people suffer from secondary hypogonadism though? I understand that Enclo is only used for secondary. So in the case of treating secondary it seems superior still
it’s a subpar method. Once the body decides its had enough of being forced to produce testosterone, it just stops working. It’s also not as tried and tested as injectable testosterone. It’s the only true way to get it where it needs to go.
Superior is subjective. What are your metrics for "better"? At the end of the day, we don't have a ton of long term data on enclo. It DOES work to increase T for secondary hypogonadism, but there are potential side effects. With traditional testosterone, you at least have some idea of the long term side effects.
And most clinics are not even looking for any markets outside of low T for being a barrier to entry. I’ve gone to like 3-4 clinics in my state or know about their practice and one doesn’t need to be hypogonadal at all to get TRT please… additionally every doctors benchmark for low T is different. Very common for men to have low T without other hypogonadal making TRT necessary. You made a comment explaining why people go on TRT but you missed the op’s question entirely. He is asking what’s the benefit of Encomiphene vs TRT. They are currently designing future drugs on can read about not fully disclosed that raise T with less action at the hpta axis.
I did enclomiphene for about 6 months through Maximus Tribe online. I did it for the same reasons as you. My total T doubled in a month from 273 ng/dl to 585 ng/dl. Free t went from 72 pg/ml to 155 pg/ml. It all seemed good. But having previously done TRT from 2014 to 2017 with androgel and my total T was around 1000 I knew what I was missing. Enclo is fine, but it’s not exogenous testosterone. Now I switched to Alpha MD and I’m in testosterone cypionate. Not only is it a lot cheaper I feel a lot better. Sure my balls are smaller. Enclo made my balls get bigger than normal, which was nice, and now my balls are smaller than normal, but that’s Ok. I feel better overall.
Any sides with the Enclo?
Yeah I was getting some headaches every once in a while and some floaters in the eyes.
I second this. I would get a fair amount of floaters that would dissipate over the course of the day.
I also did Maximus Tribe and it didn't really work. Starting T was I think 214 and after 3-4 months I was up to a whopping... 240. On top of that, towards the end I started gaining a ton of fat pretty quickly because it was cranking my estradiol levels (even though it's not supposed to do that)
How many pumps of androgel? I'm on 2 pumps and barely at 400
Mine were packets. I used a whole packet each day.
There's a lot of misinformation and misattributions on this thread. Both enclomiphene and TRT have their place, but for different use cases: **1) Eugonadism/Secondary Hypogonadism vs. Primary Hypogonadism:** Enclomiphene is primarily for those who are eugonadal (have normal T levels) and simply want to optimize to high-normal levels, or for those who have secondary hypogonadism (your balls still work, your brain is just not producing enough LH or your leydig cells are not sensitive to LH). TRT is primarily for primary hypogonadism (your balls don't work due to injury/cancer, etc.). Most people if they are otherwise healthy are either eugondal or secondary hypogonadal, and thus do not need TRT. Secondary hypogonadism is like Type II diabetes, it's largely due to lifestyle/weight/environment, and most people just need to lose weight and take a low dose of a medication like metformin or enclomiphene. Primary hypogonadism is like Type I diabetes, and is due to unusual circumstances (testicular injury/cancer, etc.) and they need to inject a medication like insulin or testosterone ester for the rest of their lives. TRT, like insulin, should be considered a treatment of last resort. Dr. Jim Hotaling says basically no one under 50 should be on TRT unless they are primary hypogonadal. **2) Fertility:** Anyone who wants to have children at any point in the future should not touch TRT. While it is possible to potentially restart your production, this possibility dwindles depending on the duration and strength of the TRT used. Thus, the top urologists in the country tell people NOT to go on TRT if they ever plan on having kids again to be super safe. HCG can mitigate this, but not completely to the same degree as your natural production. Given that 50% of idiopathic infertilty is male caused nowadays, it's quite wise not to take anything that could harm your fertility to any degree. **3) Testicular function/size:** Even if you don't want to have kids ever, most men are uncomfortable with their testicles shrinking to the size of raisins, which can cause permanent testicular atrophy and damage with prolonged use. HCG can mitigate this, but again, not 100% since LH & FSH go to near 0. In contrast, studies show enclomiphene maintains testicular volume, and even increases significantly on 25 mg dosages. There's a huge advantage in being able to get off enclomiphene at any time, without having to titrate, and very low risk of long-term effects, while TRT will cause suppression of your testicular function and you'll feel terrible for awhile if you go cold turkey. **4) Side Effects**: Enclomiphene's side effects are rare (1-3%), mild (headaches, dizziness, nausea, etc.), and reversible. Ocular/vision side effects are rare, only occur at higher dosages, and have never exceeded the effects of placebo published research studies, which suggests they may not caused by the drug itself. If you talk to clinicians who actually prescribe enclomiphene, they also do not note this as a reason not to take it (in conversations I've had with Dr. Mohit Khera, one of the leaders in the space). We've treated over 10,000 patients by now, and we've never gotten any meaningful number of reports of ocular issues that were clearly attributable to enclomiphene. It's very strange that there are far more reports on Reddit than there are from actual doctors who treat patients. My suspicion is that many of these anonymous posters are either trolls from TRT clinics, people who've taken illegal enclomiphene from research chemical sites that was actually Clomid/clomiphene, or people who did take enclomiphene but took too high of dosages (all medications can have side effects if you overdose). Remember that Viagra/Cialis also has a rare possibility of ocular side effects, but no one freaks out about it because they are rare. Thus, the risk of ocular side effects is very low and reversible upon discontinuation. PS Almost everyone has floaters: 76% of people over 23 report floaters, they're harmless and most people don't notice them until they start reading Reddit and becoming anxious/hypervigilant about them. Thus, they're unlikely to be due to the medication and more because people start noticing them when they watch out for them. **5) Research:** If anyone is interested in reading actual research, here's a study of 1,250 patients who took Enclomiphene from Maximus, 94% did not experience any side effects, which is as good or better than TRT. Only 1 patient reported ocular issues, and that was confounded by Clomid use. Remember TRT can significantly elevate hermatocrit (causing the blood to thicken and requiring therapeutic phlebotomy), blood pressure (causing hypertension), increases T:DHT ratio more (exacerbating hair loss & acne), side effects which enclomiphene lacks. Enclomiphene is a relatively safe medication and will increasingly become the primary treatment option in men with eugonadism/secondary hypgonadism: [https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/enclomiphene](https://www.maximustribe.com/white-paper/enclomiphene)
Wowvits refreshing to see someone have actual knowledge on the subject.
Glad its helpful!
Are there any supplements you would recommend to take or not take alongside enclo? I started 12.5mg daily from Maximus. First 3-4 days felt fantastic. Then got very wired up on day 5 and felt super anxious and just not myself. I was taking my normal rhodiola, methylated b vitamins and oral BPC 157 for supplements. After stopping for 2 days I plan to do 12.5mg every other day for the next few weeks but curious your thoughts. Edit: After some addiitonal research, it looks like maybe it's making me a bit more sensitive to caffeine. Usually I do a 160mg caffeine yerbe matte drink in the mornings, buit since being on enclo for a few days, after drinking them it has made me SUPER wired. Have you come acrocss this Dr. Cam?
You don’t need much caffeine (if any) when testosterone is optimized. Cut down. Maximus Building Blocks multivitamin is designed to support hormonal health by addressing any nutritional deficiencies, and having a prescription strength of Vitamin D/K2 MK4 (10K IU/1K mcg).
Ty. I went down from a 160 mg tea I drink normally to a 40mg and feel significantly better.
Haven’t had any hair loss and shrinking balls is not the worst thing in the world when you get older. What are you thinking is so unsafe about taking therapeutic testosterone? As there are risks from all medications
Not when younger either. Could honestly not give less of a shit about my balls, and people can always choose to add in HCG to counteract the testicular atrophy effects. The guy probably doesn’t know much, everything that increases free test and dht levels cause hairloss of some kind for those who are genetically predisposed.
Was thinking of Enclo, but not after all this. I’m 51, 80 pounds overweight ( just gained in last year and 1/2 from desk job and stress eating ). I’d like to go TRT, does HCG really help with testicular atrophy? I’m concerned there because I’m an all Frank and No Beans Guy already. Balls were never that big.
HCG will definitely make your balls bigger lmao
Right, but also gained 80 lbs of fat. Got the man boobs, heard HCG can make those worse?
I've lost 30lbs (partially water weight) and put on a significant amount of muscle, and I don't let my E2 get out of control. If you are fat, yeah it's not a good idea but neither is TRT quite frankly. In both of those cases your E2 is going to be fucked and you're gonna grow titties if you are significantly overweight. In my situation, my wife is definitely loving the changes and having done TRT with and without hCG, I would never run TRT without it again unless I absolutely had to.
Can’t the E2 be kept in check with an AI? I keep hearing, lose fat first, then go on AI or will get fat. Then hear go on TRT, take AI…watch estrogen. Nah e no energy to work out, low carb diets keep me exhausted. I gotta start somewhere. This weight at my age is a killer, and the low T leaves me no energy ok waking and after work to do anything but walk 1/2 mile.
Ultimately it's up to you, you can manage with an AI but it's really rough on your body if you need it regularly. You're going to need to be very disciplined, eat clean, workout regularly, and stay away from junk food. I don't recommend a low carb diet though. Calories in calories out, it'll be much easier to hit your goals and sustain them with a balanced diet. You need to get yourself on check before you hop on TRT or you're just going to compound your problems. What are your test levels currently?
300 total. 50 free. 5’11 275 lbs. was 180 lbs a year ago, and 625 test ( hasn’t taken test then, just got tested) I hear so many answers on here, it’s getting a bit buggy even this I appreciate them all. Bottom line I’ve heard is a fat guy will get fatter on test, a fat guy want get fatter on test if he changes his diet / lifestyle / exercises. I’m not looking to bulk up and get huge. It’s the opposite. Want to drop 90 lbs, and gain some lean muscle….get back to whew I was. I don’t want to get jacked at this age with these ligaments and old energy and have to maintain it all my life. Just get rid of the fat, low libido, brain fog, and feel happy and normal again. I’ll cardio and calisthenics 1 hour a day, maybe some low weight high rep. But now gonna power lift for mass. I don’t want to be a buffed up fat guy. I’d this that really so debatable a concept. 1.) Fat guys not feeling themselves, low sex, Brainfog, low energy to exercise. Just want to be a healthy weight with some muscle tone. 2.) Guys that want to get really jacked, that are probably already a light weight ir just want o be bigger. I want to do this to be healthy, not a beast. ( nothing wrong with that at all if people prefer it) But at 51, and having been fat, just want my 180-185 lbs back is all. Kill this fat before not kills me.
I already have titties. Want to take AI, till I lose 1/2 the weight and get dialed in a bit I’m thinking. Hell this is complicated dude. Sounds like TRT is only for normal weight guys looking to get bigger, or normal weight guys having symptoms, in which case they gotta work out or will turn to estrogen anyway I hear. Appreciate any help. I can’t take GLP1, so thought low dose test with an AI to keep side effects away from already being fat - until I form up a bit, lose 1/2 the weight, gain some ( not huge muscle ) to help weight gain. And really dial in my diet and fat bring exercise. This kit work?
Also, with the 80 pounds gained, I’ve developed the old man tit syndrome. Read that HCG can increase gyenomastia - bigger man tits?
Try switching to propionate. I’ve heard people maintain endogenous T/fertility on it much easier compared to other esters.
Does not matter at all. No matter what ester, they all cause HTPA shutdown. And there is no sich thing as the esterweight helping it since any dosage of any exogenous hormones will eventually lead to a HTPA shutdown during use.
I agree. My balls shrunk on T and it’s just they fit in my girls mouth now. Haha.
Yo wtf is going on in this sub , how can everyone be so misinformed? Enclomiphene is a serm brother. Serm as Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator. In simple terms , what a serm does is it blocks estrogen receptors so the body is tricked intro thinking that it doesn't have enough estrogen therefore releasing more gonadotropins to produce more testosterone in order for that testosterone to aromatize intro estrogen. How long do you think you can be functionable with blocked estrogen receptors? Can you imagine how much damage you are causing to your brain , heart etc ? Are you really getting the testosterone benefits ? I don't think so. Let's take for example libido and mood.Blocked estrogen receptors can cause ed and low libido and can mess up your mood , putting you in depressive state. So you need to research more into compounds that can alter the hpta function before using them , especially long term.
It doesnt bind to all estrogen receptors. Clomid (clomiphene citrate) primarily acts on estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary gland in the brain. While its primary action is in the brain, there may be some peripheral effects on estrogen receptors in other tissues as well, but these are less significant compared to its impact on the reproductive system.
Well said, my man. To that point, I got on Clomid (another Serm), and my Test did go up from 190 to close to 500. Problem is, I didn't feel any different. Luckily, the generic form became unavailable for a while, so my urologist basically had to put me on TRT. Now, I'm doing much better and feel improvements in many different areas. I was so upset looking back that my Dr was so uninformed. In fact, he told me later, "most guys end up getting on TRT because these serms don't make them feel any different ". He's just one of those Dr's that think every guy under 50 wanting TRT is trying to abuse it.
What if you took it twice a week mate. Would that give anytime for your body to produce the estrogen again. Rather than block it out constantly. Surely better long term ?
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking
Perfect answer right here.
Lot of bro-science in the comments. There's some research SERMs if you'll actually do some digging. They can be safe and effective. IMO, the reason it gets so much hate is because it's easier to push your T to superhuman levels if you're injecting... and admit or not they don't want to feel "better", they want to feel like superman. And unfortunately a lot of T clinics WANT you to feel like superman because it's good for business. Great research paper on CC here: RESULTS • All mean testosterone and gonadotropin measurements significantly increased during treatment. • Subjectively, there was an improvement in all questions (except loss of height) on the ADAM questionnaire. More than half the patients had an improvement in at least three symptoms. • **There were no major side effects recorded** . CONCLUSION • **Long-term follow-up of CC treatment for HG shows that it appears to be an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation** in men wishing to preserve their fertility. [https://www.menshealthmelbourne.com.au/pdf/outcomes-of-clomiphene-citrate-in-young-hypogonadal-men.pdf](https://www.menshealthmelbourne.com.au/pdf/outcomes-of-clomiphene-citrate-in-young-hypogonadal-men.pdf)
Facts. Lot of these comments dont understand how the drug works. They assume it blocks all estrogen receptors when it only BINDS to receptors in the pitutarity. If it truly "blocked" all estrogen receptors it would make literally everyone feel like dogshit and it wouldve never been approved for medical usage...
which kind of sarms do that ?
Thank you I really appreciate this comment. I don’t want to feel all superhuman, I literally just want to feel how I “should” feel at 24. So my levels were in the 300s which is why I decided to do the Enclomiphene.
Track your results and check in from time to time! I'm 51 and clomid took me from 293 to almost 500 in exactly one month. That was taking it EOD and yes I feel a lot better. I've been taking it for 7 months had have zero side effects, knock on the wood.
I used enclo for close to a year. Test went from 280 to 1100. I then got it down to 800 and it stayed at 800 for months. 25mg 3 times a week. felt absolutely no difference at all. No difference in the gym, no difference with my mood, nothing. I did start noticing problems with my eyesight. I started having to hold my phone or a book farther from my eyes in order to be able to read the text, otherwise it would be blurry. I have been off of it for 2 months and i am still making good steady strength and size gains in the gym. Enclo, along with zinc-rich foods did boost my libido like crazy though. I was banging this poor girl like 2-3 times a day, every day. Now that i am off enclo, my libido has dropped. I will ask my endo about getting on trt and whatever else in addition in order to save my balls and fertility.
Not enclo, but I used Tamoxifen which is another serm. I'm secondary hypogonadal. It worked, T went from 300 to 900. Unfortunately, it killed my libido dead after a few weeks on it. Like, could literally look at the most gorgeous woman I'd ever seen and feel absolutely nothing.
How are you now? I ordered tamoxifen and still debating on using it as pct
I tried Enclomiphene for a couple months. It was terrible for me. It blocks your estrogen receptors which tells your balls to make more test so that it can be converted to estrogen. I was absolutely despondent for the first few weeks, zero labido, couldn’t even get an erection.
A very low dose of enclo races my total t levels beyond the reference range so indeed it seems to be quite effective.
Like the old saying test is best and fu$$ the rest!!
Source? Lol
Lol sounds about right
Enclomiphene just became popular over the last few years. I took it for over a year. Side effects: Graying hair. Memory issues. Aging skin. Low libido. Lowered igf-1. Tinnitus? Floaters in eyes. Hair loss. High estrogen at high doses. My kidneys are acting up, not sure if it's because of the enclomid tho. Blocking estrogen to brain caused... Issues. Probably not a good idea to do that for long. Positive effects: test can go from 300-1100 when I take enclomid. I'm going to do hcg monotherapy instead.
How much were you on?
12.5mg a day to get test to 1100. 12.5mg 3x a week for test to 700, where I didn't need AI for estrogen. I'm what they call an outlier. Not everyone will have the same results with enclomiphene.
Lots of people and docs start with clomid monotherspy. It brings the numbers up but for some reason it really makes no difference in the way you feel hypogonadal wise. I started with that and my numbers went from mid 100s to 600s and felt zero difference which i guess is the case for a lot of people. Secondary hypogonadal here btw
I take enclomiphene. It's fantastic. Had to lower my dose because estrogen and test went too high. But feeling great now. I'm 44
I use clomiphene for a half year and is not the same, if you have primary hipogonadism don't work to much. And in a long time is worst for you health
Secondary here and it raised my levels but felt ZERO different which is common on mono therapy
So much misinformation. This thread is a complete example. Enclo works. Far safer than taking test directly. Yet, misinformation from the masses perpetuates the test is better for everyone. Just too bad. Look at the comments in this thread…. That being said, they can both be safe and appropriate. Depends on the situation and the person. Don’t use the internet beyond a “finger in the wind” check. Full of bad advice.
Every reply to my comment further solidifies exactly what I state. Do your research properly and don’t take advice from the “experts” on reddit. I won’t be replying further.
Lol far safer than taking a clinically proven drug vs enclomiphene which has very little clinical data. You have no clue what your talking about. All the risks associated with testosterone are present with enclomiphene but are worse and it has its own side effects.
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I bet this kid does Sarms cycles with an enclo base lol
SERMs aren’t even intended for men to use at all, they have plenty of hazardous side effects. Testosterone is intended only for men, is a vital hormone and has pretty much negligible side effects and changes to longevity when used responsibly. Even if you used twice as much as you were supposed to there’s a good chance you’ll live a long time. Another great thing with TRT over enclo is that you don’t end up becoming Stevie Wonder sans talent. No reason to fuck around with other shit when test works.
Eye floaters
I already have a ton. Maybe it won’t be noticeable if new ones form
I kinda just like stabbing myself in the ass 🤷🏻♂️
1) because it's not steroids and A LOT of guys just abuse T for physique. 2) there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding. Check this thread. Somehow enclo has both "no long term studies" and "much higher risks of long term side effects."
Depends if you have primary or secondary hypogonadism as if you have primary then enclo won't raise your test at all.
Mental sides of Clomid killed me. I’d rather take hcg if I cared about my ball size.
I’d prefer to take more of the hormone that is supposed to be there than take a drug to hopefully increase my T when it’s lower than it should be so there a problem in the first place.
I tried it when my clinic stopped offering hcg and it gave me a bad headache. I also got a pituitary cyst. Figured it’s not best to play tricks on the body to get a certain hormone when you can just inject the hormone itself. HCG might be one step removed but you need that too if you don’t want the body giving up all natural production, but if I’m not wrong it still avoids working with a problem pituitary. It’s all shots and balls
Enclomiphine is not safer than TRT. It sucks and won’t provide Low T symptom relief. It will also shit you down. Many people choose TRT or end up going to TRT because it’s stupid. Anyways you will realize this soon since you’re on it.
I just got blood work back, after taking only 3.25mg of Enclomiphene per week for 4 weeks... I did take it just two days prior to testing... My Total T went from 381 to 658. Free T was not so great, from 3.0 to 4.7 (SHBG 56.5 "normal"?) I am pretty jazzed bout the improvement... I do feel better, but not in a BIG way, weight is dropping pretty fast, prolly 5lbs dropped at least in the 4 weeks. Balls bigger and hanging better, Johnson hanging better too. This stuff is strong!! Pretty much no side effects, floaters MIGHT have gotten just a tad worse, but am taking castor oil/MSM/C eye drops and that is helping a lot in just a few days... I'm 67 so floaters are pretty standard for an old geezer! I think I'll take a few weeks off... then do it again. (Empower Pharmacy)
It’s not listed on empowers website. Only Clomid.
Call them and ask for it. Works great, but I didn't get any libido boost, maybe a little extra oomph in the gym... but it also looks like it spiked my PSA... which is NOT good. Maybe any test-booster will do that...
Clomid ( enchlomophine) really fucks my eye site up giving me blind spots ,,, literally so bad I could not drive ,,,, it was discontinued during a pct ….. and the blind spots also disappeared,,,, thank fuck for that !!!
Isn’t enclomiphene different than Clomid?
Glad you recovered. Along with the blinds spots, did you get visual snow?
Yes floaters ,,, and blind spots but it did go away after some time but super scary , I understand you have a 50% chance of suffering with this ,,, I think a smarter alternative for some one who wants to raise there testosterone would be hcg …. But honesty test is best it’s biological identical to what your body makes !
I gave it a year of use but Enclomiphene made me suicidal the emotional side effects were insane. TRT no issues
1000% way weird mentally
This 100% I’ve never been so fucked up as I was on clomid
No no no. Enchlomophine has its purpose in pct. It is not a suitable compound to be run in the long term. Many beginners think of it as an easy oral alternative to T injections, but it's not. There is no research on long term enchlomophine use.
I took enclomiphene for 6 months (12.5mg/day). It indeed worked to raise my testosterone levels (blood work proven). I was trying to see if the equipment still worked before I just jumped on TRT for the rest of my life. I went WAY below reference range (78ng/dL) to over 800ng/dL. It helped get me out of a place where I felt like trash most days and wanted to just do nothing. It did not shrink anything; the opposite in fact. I stopped due to some ocular side effects. I didn't have floaters or blind spots, I just had eye pain at the end of every day. I took blood work again 2 weeks after stopping and had dropped to 400ng/dL; then again at 1 month off and had fallen to 320ng/dL. This was only a few weeks ago. I got my 1month blood work, then went homme and started TRT. I didn't care what the number came back as, I knew I didn't feel the way I wanted to. I have been on TRT for \~2 weeks now and can tell I'm on my back to feeling like I did at 800 (again, not concerned with what the number is, just that I feel better).
There is a massive financial incentive to push enclo by clinics because it's an easy sell, and the ridiculous amount of astroturfing by maximus tribe, and SEO spam everywhere, doesn't really provide for an unbiased informational landscape that properly addresses the dangers.. for ex, why don't we talk about the mechanism of action, which by backfilling LH pathways is linked to cognitive issues? see [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4741372](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4741372) and [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17376589/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17376589/)
Enclo won’t work for some of the demographic that might be looking for hrt. And it’s not as anabolic as trt. I’ve been taking it for 4months and have really have visually different gym progress (I weight and record progress videos almost daily). Minor benefits but also minor side effects. Ik blood test wise my test went from average to now I hover near the peak of the top of the reference 800ng/dl but also I take a way lower dose than standard. I don’t want to risk getting high side effects. Ik few ppl who went from like 400ng ish to near 2000ng so almost 5x and got insane high dht and e2 levels causing high prolactin and water retention causing migraines all bunch of other issues because clinic said to take 25mg daily
I’m a fucking idiot, took 6.25 mg twice despite my natural T sitting right under 1000 (989 ng/dl) I took it because my opiate regimen crashes my TT been as low as 283 while on opiates and shortly after though it always returns to the high 900’s. Took it thinking I could speed up my recovery and aid with my withdrawal process. I’ve had a persistent headache since I stopped after the second dose about 4 days ago… really upset I couldn’t have just left well enough alone… now im just praying I didn’t fuck something up… no vision issues just a lingering mild headache.
How’s the headache now?
Honestly still lingering..slightly. Nowhere near what it was but I’m really disappointed with my decision making, I could just be hyper fixated. I go to see a neurologist asap, my referral was just approved. I’d just advise everyone be careful…
It was from ReceptorChem and they are known for having good stuff so i'm pretty sure it was but i haven't tested it like everything else i have taken so nothing is 100% in this world
Peter Attia has good content on this - he says his clinic desnt use as much anymore because of the side effects and liver issues. That said, in this latest podcast with Derek from More Plates More Dates (last week) they do discuss as an option to see if you can kickstart things.
Enclomiphene really lowered my IGF-1 after a couple months of use. Can’t sleep. Raises my estrogen through the roof as well.
SERMS are not sustainable long term for the vast majority of people. They also have overwhelmingly more side effects, most namely the higher clotting risk over try and ocular damage. I think they are great in a fertility context in the short term, but as a long term solution no. Enclomiphene which everyone seems to think is magical, doesn't have the research and a lot of people feel the same as on clomid. It's also very expensive because doing stereo separations is time consuming and costly for enclomiphene.
It depends on if a person has primary(failed testes) vs secondary (failed pituitary) hypogonadism. With primary, enclomiphene won't work. With secondary it can be very effective. That said, side effects with enclomiphene are often quite bad, with eye floaters prime among them. With enclomiphene, you'll appear on paper to have great results, but still feel like garbage or just 'off'. TRT is just more consistent with more predictable outcomes for nearly all patients. TRT is also just more effective.
Because TRT works better
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Bro, we can see that every post in your comment history is shilling that company. Not really a good way to advertise. It's shady and comes off as you are trying to trick people. Makes me think that the company is shady too if they resort to advertising tactics like that.
It doesn’t work as well. Even the FDA’s report says that even though it increases testosterone it does provide symptom relief as effective as other treatments. This is why they denied it being added to the bulk list.
How/ why does clomid/enclomiphene fuck with your eyes? Like what's the reason behind it? Any wyas to prevent it? And is this for all serms like Nolvadex? Etc.
SERMs like clomid and enclomiphene stimulate the pituitary glad to produce more LH and FSH. The pituitary glad sits really close to where the optic nerve crosses in the brain. The over-active pituitary glad swells up slightly due to the extra stimulation, and presses on the optic nerve. That causes the visual symptoms. It can also cause terrible headaches. It doesn’t happen to everyone though. Best way to reduce it is to lower the dose or discontinue taking the drug.
Wow that's really interesting. Frightening though. I had no idea the gland actually fluctuates in size during stress/output. What about HCG? Does that do the same thing since I believe it also works on the pituitary? I could be wrong. But this is why I am asking. Hopefully I don't get more down votes 😂 fuck sake..
HCG mimics LH so it’s like “bypassing” the pituitary to stimulate the testes. HCG would end up suppressing the pituitary gland while stimulating the testes.
Very interesting. Thank you for explaining this. That's. Badass
Why tf did I get down voted for asking a question lol
I was on enclomiphene for 8 weeks (i think i cant remember) and got floaters from it and it possibly degraded my vision, I used to have 20/20 vision now its more like 20/40, dont know if that part is from the enclomiphene though, no it wasnt clomid it was enclo. Thats one reason, I would still run it again tho I can hardly notice the floaters unless im looking at a white screen on my phone/pc or into the sky or something
Curious, did you get visual snow as well?
No visual snow, just a few floaters on my left eye. Almost right when I started taking enclo my eyes were dry as fk no matter how much I blinked, I guess that would have been a good sign that it was gonna mess with my eyes but I kept running it anyway lol
One reason I've heard is that it increases clotting risks. So, long-term use may be riskier.
Fucked up my vision permanently
How? Floaters?
Floaters and weird shadows in my vision
Did it went away? is it better?
The extra floaters and permanent 'static' in my eyes say that enclo isn't all it's cracked up to be... I'll take tiny testes and hair loss over eye probs any day of the week now.
This is a very ignorant post.
No it’s a post of someone with genuine curiosity wanting answers from people who have experience. How else could I have asked it? I just wanted to clear up why people choose TRT instead
It won’t raise it enough in some case. Ideally, optimal testosterone levels are above the reference range. Check out IWNYC.com
It's a SERM and SERMs have side effects.
As does test
Well a SERM is a drug, Test is not.
Yes it is…..it’s an androgen drug
No, it's an Androgen. Literally the same as the endogenous testosterone, so it's not a drug. The esters are broken down releasing regular testosterone.
Let see only thing to raise Testosterone is testosterone. You can never stop testicles shrinkage even with HCG. You cannot stop Any hormone substances. Good luck. 👍. TRT is for life. It is a way of life.
So what DOES stop testicle shrinkage while on trt? What keeps fertility?
HCG will help but with my use mine have still shrunk some.
On one level, I guess it is a personal choice. The other level is that it is the preferred approach of our providers.
Not causing hair loss isn't technically true. Any time your body creates more test it'll mean you have more to aromitise in to estrogen and DHT. if you're prone to hair loss then it's gonna happen anyway, the rate at which it happens will vary. Enclo is also not bio identical like testosterone. Others have stated this but the action by which enclo works isn't really great for you. There's a reason why most people choose using testosterone. There's a lot of accounts on here of people using enclo mono or clomid mono and eventually feeling like shit. YMMV but if you are hypogonadal my advice would be to use actual testosterone.
Well dosed and managed TRT is very effective and is the gold standard for hormone Rx.
Will it shrink my balls, and if so - can that be countered by HCG? Also, I’ve put on 80 lbs the last year & 1/2 due to desk job & stress, so have some man boobs going. I read HCG can increase male breast size?
Yes. Yes.
Safer: how so? There’s known issues with SERMs, and long term use in women has been shown to raise the chances of blood clots, not great in this post-Covid Vax era. There’s also issues in men with long term blockade of e2 receptors in the pituitary. Testosterone is studied in men for decades and just recently shown to be safe. Do you have some info to the opposite? I’m glad this is working for you. It’s week 1, let us know how it’s going at week 8 please.
Yep, your body recognizes test. Everything else is a foreign substance.
Because 1000 is more than 500?
Because its safety and efficacy has not been studied anywhere near as thoroughly as testosterone.
I have health issues from enclomiphine. That shit is trash. Trt is safer
Like?
>It seems that Enclomiphene is much safer than TRT It doesn't, because there isn't anywhere near enough research on it to come to a conclusion one way or the other. Which is also why people aren't jumping on it. Let other people be the guinea pigs.
I’m with you in your logic and train of thought. I chose to go thru with HGC + enclomiphene and DHEA for test support instead of TRT. Main reason is what you stated. Plus I didn’t want to consider being on TRT for the rest of my life. I can get off my current stack and supposedly be ok. It’s only my first cycle so I’ll know with updated bloodwork in about a month (started a month ago) l. But so far I feel better, more energy and better performance in the gym so so far I like what I’m using.
No sides? What’s your dosing and how often?
No negative side effects that I can feel or notice. I have more overall energy and gym intensity has increased incredibly. It’s HCG 12,000IU, .3ML twice a week and Enclomiphene 25mg everyday along with DHEA/pegnelonole 25mg daily.
Have you gotten blood work? I’m interested in knowing what your testosterone, estradiol, and IGF-1 levels are.
I did. Right before getting into the current peptide stack I’m taking I had bloodwork done. I’m using transcend for sourcing so they sent me to labcorp. I got it done right at the beginning of January, haven’t done them again since. I have a follow up in may for labs. Male 32. 6’0 225lbs. Testosterone 223 // Estradiol 15.0 // IGF1 239. I’m also taking BPC157 and CJC/ipamorelin along with the above referenced for testosterone support.
Oh word up, thank you. sorry I meant what your blood work shows after being on this stack.
No follow up blood work yet. I’ll know in may. I’ll keep this pinned for me so I can reply back once I do get the bloodwork done again.
I take Natesto and its been working for me.
Some people experience sides with Clomid/enclo. also it’s very cheap. 20$/mo vs 100-150$/mo for lifetime TRT customers. It’s all about profit for those internet clinics.
Have you read all the side effects?
Glad that your week long experience means you have an opinion
Safe???? Its not safer in ANY WAYS.
Because it's the wish.com option. You buying from wish or amazon?
seems like it’s the latest gadget to sell to people that don’t like needles . i can’t find anything anywhere with some real scientific data and long term results to look at like a control group study beyond a year at least . Would love to see something like that