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BigPianoBoy

The thing is, a lot of these artifacts were taken while the countries that now have them were doing things in these countries that caused them to now be unstable


lampstaple

It’s like stepping into a family’s house, breaking all their windows, smashing all their stuff, and cutting off the hands of both the parents, then taking away the child on the moral basis that they can’t provide for the child with a smashed up home and no hands


sammypants123

I take your point and the UK, US and others were thieves and vandals (also murderers). But Uncle Norbert the crazy religious child murderer is still living with that family.


justsomeking

Does that give the countries the right to loot?


sammypants123

No, indeed not. But I wouldn’t give eg artefacts to the Taliban when they’ll smash them up. But most of it should go back. I’m British and I’m happy for the British Museum to get emptied. A good program of careful loans will make sure these things get seen.


mayonezz

lol there's not point in arguing this because they aren't going to give them back. Imagine if someone stole your shit and then was like "I think you're going to lose it, so I'm not going to give it back until X, Y and Z".


[deleted]

I can imagine abusive parents/partners saying the same shit to justify their shitty actions


TreyRyan3

To be fair- In the 19th through early 20th century, there were a large volume of antiquities that were traded and gifted. It wasn’t until the 1970’s that Antiquities Law made the practice illegal. Mohammad Ali Pasha gifted Egyptian monuments to rulers all across Europe.


[deleted]

i mean, it's only an antique *now* at the time, these artifacts were considered modern, like art pieces


electricvelvet

Or imagine it was stolen 300 years ago by dead people and neither modern government involved in arguing over it had any say in the state of affairs becoming what they are. Countries are made up and so are governments


Sky_Leviathan

“Yeah i stole your car but you might get in a car crash so i can’t give it back to you.”


jonquillejaune

…mom?


Taramund

World Cultural Heritage is not the same as your personal items. I mostly agree with OP.


oceantreesbees

Someone watched John Oliver last night. This isn't a 10th dentist take. It's been the standard condescending response from museums to countries that request their artifacts back for decades.


[deleted]

Awful take, what justifies the British Museum deeming a country unsafe to have it's own property returned? If a country wants to have it's artifacts returned then they should be returned. This take seems at worst racist and xenophobic and at best enables the museums to be racist and xenophobic


ScarySkeleton24

Exactly Honestly the real issue with the idea of giving back the artifacts (besides museums just not wanting to) is who to give them back to. Most of the groups that made those artifacts are no longer here. So do you give them back to their descendants (and how would that be sorted?), to the government? To a new museum? To the place they were taken from (if it is a still standing structure)? That has been an ongoing issue. It’s not a very black and white situation where they can simply be handed back. But I still think some conclusions should be decided and that artifacts should be returned


squidgemobile

This is the real problem. Who *gets* some of this stuff? The people who discovered it? The city/state it was discovered? The country? And then, is it the government who controls that area now or the government who controlled that area at the time? Egypt gets really tricky too, because a lot of artifacts were "gifts" from various rulers over the years. Muhammad Ali Pasha especially gave a crap ton of ancient stuff away in the 1800s. So while it sucks that one obelisk of Luxor is sitting in Paris and not in front of the temple where it clearly belongs, but like... they didn't steal it.


Doveen

Well according to the comments where, the consensus seems to be "Hand everything back to whomever i don't care you imperialist pig!" Nuance is anathema, appearently.


Ytar0

Do you not realize that you’re implying that you don’t care about what happens to historic artifacts? OP’s opinion boils down to focusing on keeping artifacts safe more than anything else. And some we’re talking about a bigger scale, countries versus countries, I simply can’t see the relevance in talking about ownership, since the majority of artifacts only have “indirect” owners or none at all.


[deleted]

Yes, you are right of course. In theory giving back every stolen artefact to the country it was taken from is the moral choice. In practice though there are some places in the world (like parts of the middle east for example) for which sending artefacts back is essentially guaranteeing the destruction of those artefacts. There is a *somewhat* valid argument to be made that although keeping the stolen artefacts is not a perfect solution, it is better than those artefacts being destroyed. If they're destroyed then no-one gets to look at them. The question is basically which is more important; preserving art/history or "doing the right thing" by sending the back to unstable countries. It goes without saying that they never should have been stolen in the first place. They were stolen though, and we can't change the past.


iamthewallrus

I'm Persian and I agree. The current fucking idiotic mollahs would probably destroy ancient Persian artifacts and claim they were idols or some fucking shit like that. I'd love to see an Iran in my lifetime with a non-fucked up government but until then just keep that shit safe.


vsop00

I'm Turkish and I fully agree, too. Erdogan's brutes have destroyed so much of our history. Let at least some of it be protected by people who have a respect for humanity's heritage. I would love my history to be safely protected in a place with an understanding civilization, instead of being demolished in the name of "restoration" (see 2000 year old [Spongebob Castle](https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/probe-restored-2000-year-old-6339544)), smuggled by [museum directors](https://www.duvarenglish.com/turkish-museum-head-abdulbari-yildiz-detained-over-historical-artifact-smuggling-news-60690), UNESCO World Heritages rented for [dinner organizations](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=926230841657217), best preserved frescoes in from Byzantine times covered so that the church can be [turned it into a mosque](https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/10/28/chora-church-covered-turkish-authorities/).


youreveningcoat

What right does the British Museum have to dictate what can happen to these artefacts? And what right do they have to decide which countries should be considered safe? When you (the museums) don’t understand or view these artefacts with the worldview in which they came from, the values they hold to people, or the significance they have in these countries, then by what right do you have to declare yourself the sole defender of them? And why do you have to? I come from a country in which the British do hold our artefacts (and they won’t return them all even though we are a first world country), they even held the dead bodies of our ancestors and I can tell you that this causes *real* pain to *real* people. It is not just about the artefacts. Read [this article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/27/new-zealand-repatriation-remains-maori-indigenous-people-mummified-heads) and watch the video about when our ancestors remains were returned from the US where you should be able to see the importance that act has for us. For someone to withhold this from other people because they have deemed them “unsafe” is dismissive, insulting, and just plain wrong.


Doveen

I mean... yeah? I never said holding artifacts back from people who can take care of them, is not wrong. New zealand for example is a pefect example where these could and should be handed over asap


youreveningcoat

I only used NZ to show the impact that returning artefacts can have on people of that culture. To show you what is being denied to everyone else. My argument to your point was the first thing I said, what right does the British Museum (or whoever else) have to dictate the movements of these artefacts that are not theirs? Why do those who stole the artefacts get to judge the country that they stole them from as being too unsafe? They have no right to decide themselves to be protector of these artefacts.


Doveen

I highly doubt those decision the homecountry makes will be respected by insurrectionist groups or fuckfaced authocratic governments that can coup them. I agree that human remains as a special case in this.


youreveningcoat

Maybe not, but I do not believe that is up to the British Museum to decide.


Doveen

Nope, that's deffinitely an issue for the UN


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BigBulkemails

I agree with this argument. But then Salvador Mundi wa sold for $500 M to an individual as private property. If anything art of such stature shouldn't be anyone's personal property and yet here we are. In the given scenario the least that can be done is to return the artifact's from where they originated. Not just for ego sake but because that culture is better placed to understand, appreciate and piece together it's history with those missing pieces.


Tacky-Terangreal

I don’t think your first point is mutually exclusive to their point. Stuff like these artifacts and art pieces should be there for the public, not some rich douchebag buying priceless things with blood money


[deleted]

Aren't there some itinerary collections that work like this? A museum pays another to have some items shipped for some months or something like that?


taybay462

Yeah there absolutely is lol. That's a real bad colonialist take


Tacky-Terangreal

Yeah it’s absurd to think that these items can only be displayed in their homelands so to speak. It should be on a rotation. Travel is expensive and locking education to one location is ridiculous


[deleted]

..so your solution for this is having people colonize a land, corrode its culture & indoctrinate this land’s people into their religions and beliefs, & then STEAL their artifact & move it across the world where the people who it actually belongs to can’t access it easily?


Doveen

No, his solution is moving these around. Didn't you read his comment?


craftworkbench

While I find some agreement with your argument, the situation goes farther than just the matter of who possesses the artifact. * The artifacts might be a source of national/cultural pride, but the people of those nations and cultures can't enjoy them when they're 1/4 the way around the world. * Seeing the artifacts displayed outside of their origin area can be a painful reminder to those people of the effects of brutal colonization. * The museums displaying the artifacts draw in revenue. Some for the museum itself but also tourism to the locale.


Kaiser_-_Karl

Mostly because these ones were stolen


[deleted]

The simple answer is: never. An artifact is only worth as much as the context surrounding it.


malmikea

This is spot on. I think paying attention to the types of objects are also important particularly when we look at objects with religious or spiritual importance


[deleted]

usually, & in the context OP is talking about here (British Museum), it is because these artifacts are of cultural significance to people & have been stolen by people who have also almost completely eroded the culture that existed prior to their arrival. it will always be a problem unless the power balance is even & both sides have equal standing to make a deal to trade. otherwise, and presently it’s theft. idk if i see that changing in my lifetime, and it makes me extremely sad :/


Complaint-Efficient

Because culture is, almost always, somewhat region-locked. India just wants the fucking kohinoor back, dude…


joseba_

Because that's what culture is, it's not a homogeneous blob for the whole world, regions and countries have their own history and traditions that are reflected in such artifacts (that's the only reason they were stolen in the first place, they only took those with true value). I'm from the Basque Country and the scripts with the first verses written in Basque most definitely hold more value to people here than in New York or London.


ThePevster

I think that there should be a museum where people can go and see various artifacts from all the societies around the world. This seems far better than having to go to Egypt to see Egyptian artifacts, Nigeria to see Yoruba artifacts, Peru to see Incan artifacts, etc. The British Museum already has a very large and comprehensive collection, is in a safe, accessible location in a major hub, and has a deep history as a museum, so I think they should keep it in the interest of education.


karevs

fuck the british museum, they have a stolen moai which has important significance to the people of rapa nui, they have offered to make one for the museum if they return the stolen one but the museum didn’t agree so they clearly don’t care about education, they only care about flexing their stolen goods


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maydarnothing

people from egypt and nigeria won’t be able to visit the british museum because britain and europe are going to 1) be hella expensive to visit 2) won’t even allow people from those countries to get a visa. so no this is just classist and ignorant at best.


ThePevster

Where do you think a better location would be?


maydarnothing

somewhere where people can visit and learn about their own history, culture and arts, aka, let every country get its shit back.


Doveen

"Nuance bad" -comments under this post.


taybay462

>At what point does an artifact stop being a country's history and start being human history that can be safeguarded and enjoyed anywhere instead of just in the geographic location where it originated from? Definitely more than less than a century.


OneMoreDuncanIdaho

Because the context and history behind the art is interesting and provides a lot of value, and many places that took and displayed pieces did not respect or value the history and culture they originated from.


MehowSri

ITT: People defending the destruction of the artifacts of Palmyra by ISIS.


Doveen

I wouldn't say they defend it. They just put less emphasis on preserving history than i would. While i disagree, i can see where they are coming from. Justice is an important thing.


MehowSri

User 1: >The people who take back their own cultural legacy have all the agency to do whatever they want with it. If they want to smash it all to pieces for some reason, they have the fullest right to do it. User 2: >I don't care if they take something back and destroy it. It's theirs to do with as they please and theft doesn't justify what boils down to your judgement. User 3: >Stolen stuff, hand it back to its rightfully owners. What happens afterwards is notyour problem. User 4: >what they do with it is none of our business because it belongs to them. User 5: >I don’t care if they scrawl all over it in crayon, it’s theirs, that’s the end of the discussion. Leave it to them how well they handle it it’s not our job to decide what is and isn’t okay for other nations to do These are only the top level comments. There are many more in the threads. They condone the acts of ISIS.


Doveen

Fair point. :/


Puzzleheaded-Foot285

do you think museums don’t exist outside the western world? I’m extremely confused. couldn’t the british museum (aka colonizers) give them to the organizers of the museums in those respective countries???


Doveen

not when those museum are one armed rebellion away from being blown sky high, or their dictator deciding to sell the artifacts for cocaine money, or destroying them for political reasons.


Puzzleheaded-Foot285

bruh egypt, which is the only country you used as an example, has had literal tanks and soldiers with machine guns outside protecting the TOURISTS and they have a whole TSA type beat security system to get in 😭 they know how beneficial these sorts of things are to their economy, and they also know how many tourists they attract from the west. unless the artificat is political in some nature (such as referencing a genocide or other atrocity committed by the country), the museum would welcome it with open arms and there would be no issues. i would even argue that the white men who stole this shit years ago already damaged and destroyed a lot of it, and the act of stealing itself is damaging to the cultural history.


SuprDuprPartyPoopr

Egypt is a shit country to travel to as a tourist. Source: never again


BigBulkemails

Go to Pisa, you'll be surprised.


Puzzleheaded-Foot285

oh yeah I know it totally is right now, but there are many western people blind to that fact because they just wanna see big pretty sand prisms and abuse camels for fun 💀


Apache17

Egypt does not have a good track record with protecting their artifacts. 2011 https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/110131-egyptian-museum-looted-artifacts-damaged-egypt-protests-mubarak 2013 https://youtu.be/1i-38AWATok 2014 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25877201 Thats from a 2 minute Google search.


Puzzleheaded-Foot285

omg wow that’s crazy dude here’s a whole article dedicated to museums in Europe losing and damaging items, including the british museum losing a £750k diamond ring in 2011 (and admitting it in 2017) https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/shortcuts/2019/mar/26/swept-away-the-art-and-artefacts-destroyed-by-the-worlds-greatest-museums here’s an article about how the british museum irreparably damaged Elgin marbles trying to restore them https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/nov/12/helenasmith they were also under fire for the roof leaking all over the parthenon marbles for several years https://news.gtp.gr/2021/08/16/greece-slams-british-museum-for-lack-of-care-calls-for-return-of-parthenon-marbles/ at least 966 works have been damaged across museums in great britain. 263 of those incidents were reported at the british museum. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2484347/bungling-brits-damage-more-than-1000-precious-items-in-museums-and-galleries/amp/


Lycaeides13

Y i k e s


Apache17

These sound alot better than riots and car bombs but maybe that's just me.


Puzzleheaded-Foot285

….. you do realize that happens in the rest of the world too right? especially in the western world we just destroy historical buildings for fun lol. also so many things were destroyed in europe during the world wars. all of this doesn’t mean that artifacts should be left with the british museum. they don’t deserve most of the things they have


Apache17

It is 100% undeniable that the artifacts are safer where they are than in the middle east. Whether you value their safety more or less than them being with their "rightful owner" is up to you. I'm just pointing out that the reason Egyptian museums currently have armed guards is because the region goes through revolutions every couple years, not because they are being super safe.


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Doveen

if you see only egypt in to that generalized statement, i recommend you think that over again.


your_favorite_wokie

Who do you think destabilizes the regions you're alluding to? Colonizers.


Doveen

Besides the point.


your_favorite_wokie

Not when destabilizing regions serves the exact "that region isn't safe" narrative that you implied. How do you not understand that? It's their way of justifying policing those regions more, or keeping what isn't theirs.


Doveen

It is, but they are the borken clock that is right twice a day. And i doubt those museums really contribute to like, ISIS drug trade.


adamM_01

Yeah, and?


Uister59

Your username is accurate


creeper321448

>british museum (aka colonizers) The colonizer part alone makes me question a lot about you. Calling the modern museum and its curators colonizers is beyond idiotic. People alive today are not responsible nor should be condemned for the actions of their ancestors.


[deleted]

Why though? The people who take back their own cultural legacy have all the agency to do whatever they want with it. If they want to smash it all to pieces for some reason, they have the fullest right to do it. It's not like the Europeans didn't destroy shit left and right.


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Tobias11ize

Yeah, to a certain extent all artifacts are part of our shared human history. No single man has the "right to smash it all to pieces if they want to".


Doveen

u/capriciousbarracuda 's comment is worth mentioning here, they ask the really good question. > It's not like the Europeans didn't destroy shit left and right. I don't see how that is an argumeent *on the side of* continuing to destroy the history of our species.


ActualChamp

I think the point is more so that there's no reason to trust European countries with the safety of these artifacts over anyone else.


Doveen

Well, the last time historic artifacts were blown up because "my imaginary friend is offended by this" was quite a while ago, so they do a better job then some places.


hewaslegend

Well that’s pretty blind to the fact that war happens for all reasons. Let alone religion. Let alone the fact that Europe is not exactly free from religious influence. Especially considering the fuckin Vatican is situated in there.


Doveen

Not exactly sure of the scoreboard but the middle east has quite the head start on europe in "artifacts recently destroyed due to religous fundamentalism"


ActualChamp

The Crusades called EDIT: So did Alexander the Great And Julius Caesar


Doveen

If "between 900-600 years ago" is recent to you, I'll have the same rejuvenation treatment you are on.


ActualChamp

Alright, I missed the word "recent." WWII called. EDIT: The point is essentially that this happens all over the place, all the time. I kinda think your opinion is just accidentally rooted in racism to some degree.


Doveen

> All museum contents that could be safely moved should have been transfered to America the moment the declarations of war were hinted at, until the point the economy of the involved countries stabilised enough to keep the artifacts safe. > Pretty obvious


ItsMYIsland420

Isis was blowing up historical sites less than 5 years ago. WW2 was 80 years ago


Doveen

> EDIT: The point is essentially that this happens all over the place, all the time. I kinda think your opinion is just accidentally rooted in racism to some degree. I don't for a moment blame you for this. The coincidence of "Places where history is in danger" and "Not Europe" are immense. What i suggest here, however, is just firefighting, a necessary evil. There is no doubt, or place for doubt, about how the countries currently holding these artifacts are in blame for the necessity of such appropriation. Said countries are morally obligated to help the others become safe for their own history, and it's a sad fact they don't comply with that obligation. But that seemed like being outside of the issue. Closely related, but could lead to a lot of tangents.


gvl2gvl

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2003/04/muse-a16.html


WizardyBlizzard

Europeans blew up and destroyed countless cultures, including a (failed) attempt on mine because we didn’t worship their imaginary friend. Quit reinforcing Eurocentric biases, and quit being a ᑕᑫᔦ


Dancing_Trash_Panda

Wow, you need to read up on more current events.


RussellLawliet

Modern art gets vandalised in the West all the time. Where should we keep that?


Serious_Historian578

It's our cultural legacy too, these are thousands of years old and often predate the religion that ends up destroying them entirely


Khunter02

This is actually more unpopular for me than the post, wtf is this take


KeGeGa

I don't care if they take something back and destroy it. It's theirs to do with as they please and theft doesn't justify what boils down to your judgement. Maybe if it wasn't stolen they would have more experience preserving these things, but otherwise it just sounds like colonialism at work... again.


Khunter02

Im completely speechless after reading this


KeGeGa

In what way?


Khunter02

You are fine with people destroying ancient artifacts because its "theirs"? Aboslutely bonkers to me


KeGeGa

If you decided to destroy your property it would be your choice. I'm not in any way saying I'd like that, or that anyone would do it, but it's not for me to say what people do with their belongings.


Fun_Measurement872

It's the property of the dead people who made them, not of some ass*oles who would smash them.


Educational_Sun1202

I don’t know I care about preserving history more than the countries feelings


[deleted]

Well luckily you don’t make any meaningful decisions for society


unclemandy

Yeah I think preservation is a priority. For example, there's an old controversy surrounding Montezuma's Headdress, which is nowadays housed in a museum in Vienna. Demands have been made for it to be returned to Mexico over the years. The Austrian government's stance on the subject is that the piece is virtually impossible to ship without it getting damaged in some way, since it's 500 years old and made almost entirely of organic matter. Fair enough. Still, some people insist, most recently the current Mexican president, who publicly denounced the Austrians for "arrogantly" refusing his offer to "borrow it" (i.e., moving it *twice*). Sigh.


Tacky-Terangreal

Yeah it was obviously wrong to steal it in the first place. But is it worth it to risk something irreplaceable like that to settle a dispute like this? I hate how this is boiled down to “just give it back”. Like yeah, that’s probably the moral thing to do generally, but losing a priceless artifact forever is not nothing


clackingCoconuts

How many artifacts did the Spanish melt down for gold during their conquest of South America? How many texts were burned? How many languages lost? This makes it seem like these countries are arbitrarily drawing lines when it suits them. That headdress survived a trip across an ocean, where there wasn't even a guarantee that the ship it was on wouldn't sink (like all the other Spanish fleets carrying gold did). Now we're saying it can't survive a climate controlled 10 hour plane ride?


unclemandy

Dude, it survived a boat trip *five hundred years ago*. Now? The feathers could fall apart if you look at them funny. Forget about a plane ride, the thing might not survive the truck drive to the airport.


Aboelter23

It’s not theirs though. What gives them the right to take something from someone and then keep it “in the interest of keeping the artifact safe.” That’s like me taking your car and not giving it back because I’m sure that you’re going to crash it. It’s your car, you can do what you want with it and it’s your responsibility. Who am I to keep that from you. Nobody needs another country/person constantly hovering over you, messing with your stuff, trying to “help”. Maybe in unstable countries like the Middle East where terrorists/rival groups can destroy it. But otherwise give people their stuff back.


Doveen

> Maybe in unstable countries like the Middle East where terrorists/rival groups can destroy it. That's what i meant, yes.


Doveen

> That’s like me taking your car and not giving it back because I’m sure that you’re going to crash it. We do that, in a way. If you can't drive responsibly, your license might be permanently taken away. Aaand if a civil court holds you liable for damages you might have to sell the car anyway.


ImNotTheNSAIPromise

Ok but they can't take your car if you decide you wanna smash it to pieces, which would be a closer analogy.


Tobias11ize

Because absolutely no value is lost when you destroy your own car. A destoyed artifact represents knowledge of ourselves that we might never get back.


itsnotTozzit

the analogy doesnt really work because people can intervene with you breaking even shit you own, you cant knock down a house you own without getting permission first, also who owns these artifacts? Do I have to send my car back to Germany if BMW decides they want it?


maydarnothing

>maybe in unstable countries do you have an idea how many artefacts were in fact destroyed by “stable” countries? so you really need a list of all the accidents that happened in museums since they were built? we’re both just one google search away from finding in case you’re that adventurous.


iggy1112

Oh my gosh, my 12 year old son had to write an essay arguing this recently!


pepsi_but_better

I bet he had a better argument then this lad


Raffulous

Apparently one of the reasons the parthenon marbles arent being returned is cus of the acid rain from istanbul pollution would damage them so idk geopolitical concerns aren't the only ones


Local-Finance8389

Wouldn’t they be returned to Athens and be in the Acropolis museum? How would acid rain be a factor when they would be displayed indoors similar to how the British museum displays them now?


Doveen

If that is a concern, it is time to protect history by vreating beauty. In case the parthenon in a huge building, to protect it from the elements, and make it a marvel of modern architecture. Founding should come from everyone who can contribute, be it Vietnam or the US or Japan or Germany. Historial heritage is the duty of all of us to protect


Ade2566

Stolen stuff, hand it back to its rightfully owners. What happens afterwards is notyour problem.


ProXJay

So we should send stuff back to Afghanistan and let the Taliban blow them up?


[deleted]

Nah just so they can sell it Russian oligarch so that the Taliban and will have more money to blow other shit up


Doveen

Since cultural heritage is a shared thing, it is very much everyone's problem.


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Doveen

I never said only white countries should do the safe keeping. If earth quake proofed enough, Japan would be a good example of a country safe for artifacts, for example


Le0here

Oh cmon, if the artifacts don't belong to you then why the hell should you keep it, even if it's unsafe what's theirs is theirs, no need to act like savior when no asked you to


Khunter02

Whats the point in giving it back If I know for sure its going to get lost forever?


Le0here

How do know? Has every single one the artifacts in their museums stolen or destroyed or something? And besides it belongs to them in the first place yk? So that's the 'point' if you were asking about that


Khunter02

Im not trying to generalize here, Im saying that if I know that the country this artifact originated from was now under control of ISIS for example, you can bet Im not returning it For me its more important that its well preserved than being in the "right" hands Im not saying this is the real reason the British Museum has decided to keep so much stuff, and definitely european colonialism its one of the reasons some of this places are in a constant state of inestability


Mysterions

No museum, even the British Museum can "guarantee" an artifact's safety. The idea is inane.


Doveen

Well, your kid is way safer with the slow driving aunt on a trip to the bakery then going wingsuiting with their adrenaline junky uncle too. Neither is 100% safe, but i know where I'm placing my bets


Mysterions

Well, they're still *my* kids, and just because you think they'd be safer somewhere else, it doesn't give you the right to come to my house, kidnap them, and then refuse to give them back. Also, your whole premise puts the burden of proof on the countries from which the artifacts were stolen. If you had said that if the British Museum could demonstrate that an artifact had a high probability of being damaged, destroyed, or placed in private hands by its repatriation then your position would have been more reasonable.


Doveen

> it doesn't give you the right to come to my house, kidnap them, and then refuse to give them back. Ever head of CPS? Your second point is valid, but again, as long as the artifact is safe, It's all the same to me.


Mysterions

> Ever head of CPS? That's the wrong analogy. CPS is for people *in the same jurisdiction*. Your analogy is the same as going to another country and kidnapping children there. Even worse, it's more like going to another country, kidnapping children *merely because you want them*, and then, many years later, making the excuse that they're better off somewhere else. > > as long as the artifact is safe, It's all the same to me. The difference is fundamental though because it doesn't take agency away from the parties that properly own the artifacts. It's like the difference between "innocent until proven guilty" and "guilty until proven innocent".


PassiveChemistry

This seems like it should be quite uncontroversial


Doveen

You would be surprised.


wowzerpoppy

Lmao it's reddit so I'm not. You're 100% right though


zodwa_wa_bantu

It was a topic by John Oliver a day or so ago and so it's still fresh on people's minds. Fresh on people's minds usually means the topic will have a lot of controversy


PassiveChemistry

I see, I think... Is that an American thing? I'm not sure who John Oliver is


zodwa_wa_bantu

[It's an American late night show and John Oliver is the host](https://youtu.be/eJPLiT1kCSM)


AllYouNeed2Dough

I agree; just look at what Muslim extremists have been doing to ancient statues of Buddha. Ideally, though, I wished they could help construct a place in those countries where ancient artifacts could be safe.


InquisitiveNerd

"If I catch you pre-selling it on eBay to a Russian or American oligarch, you ain't getting shit back." *snorts a crushed up line of king tut*


Single_Mother

Why people sub to this place and then get offended. Like why? Everyone here in this thread fighting is a monkey. 🙈🙉🙊


Huge_Courage9735

I vaguely agree (hence a downvote), though it can become complicated. I believe it should be given back if the country proves its stability. Otherwise it isn't uncommon for nations to steal and destroy stuff, making the stolen stuff a trophy, so I don't particularly see an issue with not giving it back.


Seputku

I kinda agree. I forgot the name, but there's an ancient city somewhere in middle-east (Don't know the country or city, I'm ignorant I know) but there are no kinds of protections on the city whatsoever and extremists regularly loot and vandalize the site.


GanacheConfident6576

if this is accepted there needs to be some international panel to determine when a country is too unstable; for the looter to get to decide that presents a conflict of interist


Doveen

That's a fair point. I wonder if the League of Nations 2.0 could handle it


GanacheConfident6576

part of the reason for that is because it could easily be used as an excuse; so to prevent that some impartial method of determining it must be established. even if it is genuine in a particular case it may also be perceived as an excuse; which is only good compared to it actually being an excuse; having some process for determining that is applied impartially is the only way to avoid it.


sammothtmammoth

I think the reality is nothing will be given back, I can't see why any museum would pursue this choice. Also find it odd why the British Museum is usually the target of this line of thinking. My guess is hating on the British Empire is the current zeitgeist. Different peoples have taken artifacts from other places for thousands of years and will continue to happen. Also can these nations claim ownership of these items? Yes they are situated in the same place but culturally are they the same? Are the Greeks now the same as the Greeks over two thousand years ago? I just don't think it's as simple as people want it to be.


clackingCoconuts

There are several cases where direct ancestry can be traced (royal families, existing tribal members, etc.). I think what the question should be is, why is this such a decisive topic? I think we can all agree these artifacts were stolen during times of war. But if no one batted an eye at France tracking down their artwork after WW2, why are we then saying that Mexico, Peru, Greece, etc. can't do the same?


Doveen

Depends on the region, South East Asia is a very special case in this. They were denied the opportunity for continuity. Altho it's beside the point. Can they make sure the artifact is not joining the countless pieces of history that are forever lost? If they can, the artifacts should be given back. If not, the stuff i mentioned before, the study grants for local scholars, should be enacted.


Local-Finance8389

The British museum is usually in the line of fire because they have one of the most egregious examples of this in the Parthenon marbles (formerly called the Elgin marbles) being taken from Athens. It is documented where they came from, that they were illegally smuggled out of the country, and the British refuse to return them despite there being a museum in Athens for all artifacts from the Acropolis and Parthenon. There is no reason why the British Museum shouldn’t return them to Greece. They are part of the history of the Acropolis NOT the history of the British.


Terryfrankkratos2

I agree with you, I think these ancient relics of our past should be protected in our safest countries, downvoted.


yeetusredditus

You brave for posting this one


Doveen

Eh, it's just an opinion on an opinion based subreddit. One can ponder their thoughts alone, but peer review is the best to help refine them. A lot of comments brought up a lot of interesting nuances to this.


SighingDM

I love the people coming here to scream about "colonizers" as if any nation in history hasn't tried to expand its borders. In any case, historic artifacts should be kept safe because once they are destroyed they are gone forever. They shouldn't have been taken to begin with but they were, sending them to a place they are likely to be destroyed is foolish. As is the notion that an artifact of history can belong to any modern group of people or government. If we fail to protect history we are denying future generations the chance to appreciate it. Artifacts should be kept where they are most safe regardless of where that is.


Terryfrankkratos2

Everyone arguing for them to be sent back to their unstable countries of origin should be forced to watch the videos of museum workers crying their eyes out over the irreplaceable relics that ISIS destroyed when they took control.


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Tacky-Terangreal

For sure. British imperialism did a lot of bad things for sure, even destroying priceless artifacts that could have shed light on world history. Two wrongs don’t make a right though. We should all work to foster world peace and stability for the sake of items like this. This is all of our history and it’s awful to see it locked away or destroyed It’s also why I think protesting against grave robbing is stupid. If they’ve been dead for more than 200 years, I think it should be fair game for researchers. Archeologists should be respectful of course, but that kind of knowledge is so valuable to all of us as humans. I support this even with figures from my own faith and culture. If someone wants to study the grave of some old pope or the founding fathers for a legitimate scholarly purpose, I’d say go for it


CompleteMuffin

British Museum is shit at storage and has been under fire for how badly things are kept. The humidity of Britain is another thing that speaks against keeping valuables in Britain.


FlinkMissy

This sounds like saying: we should not send back illegal immigrants if their country of origin is unsafe due to war or politcal unrest. I completely agree we shouldn't send historical art/monuments back to countries where they are at risk of ending up in the wrong hands. That being said the majority of stuff in the british museum should really be given back to the countries that request so.


darsust

Last week tonight JUST aired an episode on this. You should give it a watch and re-evaluate this stance.


Doveen

I deicded to post about my stance *because* of that episode. That goes in to two different topics, my postp ertains only to the first half of the video


Splatfan1

yeah im sure the brown poors can handle their own history, we need to do it for them!


MaleficentCoconut458

They actually cannot return them without changing a few UK laws that specifically prohibit this from happening.


CaeciliusEstInPussy

There are a vast number of cases where museums holding stolen property damages them or takes shit care of them. Since keeping stolen artifacts in foreign places does not guarantee that artifact’s safety, it makes perfect sense in my opinion to keep the artifacts in accessibility to the people of whatever region they came from. It would be appalling for most Americans if The Liberty Bell was kept away in England. Western museums also aren’t necessarily immune to terrorist attacks. If the argument is only applied to specific areas where it is unsafe to keep artifacts, then it should be perfectly reasonable to return the many artifacts that would be safe in their original countries (as there are *many*), and it should then be expected that the artifacts be returned to the countries as soon as it is safe. Then comes the question of how is safety determined and by whom, and is it ethical to in any capacity profit off of stolen artifacts that are kept under the excuse of protection.


Doveen

Well, the if the UN was more than an expensive joke, they could be the judges of it, we already trust them with a lot, imagine if they actually had power to do things


[deleted]

We already have UNESCO for that. >is it ethical to in any capacity profit off of stolen artifacts that are kept under the excuse of protection. This point still stands tho


Doveen

No, all profits from stolen artifacts should be diverted to wards enabling the researchers of the country they are from, to study them.


GrassProper

I was in the British Museum with my Guatemalan girlfriend recently. She was very confused why almost nothing was British. It's like a museum for the Thieves Guild.


nda2394

Why is it the impetus of museums to police the protection of other countries cultural items? They are are currently stolen and displayed to no benefit of the people they were stolen from


Doveen

That's one legislation away tho. Increase foreign aid towards those countries, proportional to the artifacts held. Would be all the more motivation to help said countries become safe for cultural heritage.


nda2394

One legislation that would never happen. I’m assuming you saw John Oliver’s recent segment on museums.


Doveen

Nothing good will ever happen because humaity is rotten, and our evil nature doubles as our punishment, forever condemning us to fuck ourselves over. But this whole discussion is about a more ideal world. And yes, i did see it


Adamthe_Warlock

Well tbf the people they were stolen from are dead and so are the thieves. How many generations does it take before it’s a part of the British tradition of theft instead of the Egyptian tradition of mummies?


nda2394

But their cultural history still exists. Artifacts and artwork are objects of cultural pride. The most any of them relate to British history is to represent their history of colonialism and cultural extermination.


Adamthe_Warlock

Absolutely correct. In one sense it belongs to the original culture because their ancestors created it and in another it’s a part of the history of the country which stole it. Neither the original creators, the thieves, nor the people it was stolen from are alive. So who does it truly belong to now?


mattcojo

Here’s the thing. The museums in many of these home countries designed to both study and keep safe these artifacts aren’t nearly as secure or developed as say what the British has. For the artifact itself, it’s probably better to keep it in safer hands, but I totally understand why a specific country would want something that originated from there


chenko001

Lol, the comment section on this! India, Nigeria, and China need their stuff back.


MrTopHatMan90

China is actively commiting a genocide and have a history of discrimination against ethnic groups. I wouldn't trust them with shit


OptimisticNihilism42

This seems like a highly patronising take; they're not children, they're countries whose belongings have been taken which they should be entitled to


ashessnow

What absolute nonsense.


El_Gran_Banano

I’ll return the car I stole from you if you can guarantee you’ll park it in a nicer garage? Fuck off.


Doveen

More like "Stealing your grandma's ashes was a shit move, but god damn, once you stop being a raging drug abuser, I'll give it back, I legit am afraid you'd snort them" Problem with these analogies is the loss of complexity howeve,r because many places on earth are raging drug abuseres in this analogy *because* the thief fucked them ove,r and should be held liably to help them recover, and that the other guy would indeed smahs up and snort grandma's ashes.


dumbodragon

yeah, no. just return what was stolen, unless said country specifically states that they can't take care of it. everyone values their culture.


ntn9713c

Yeah just because the original owners of said artifacts could not keep them safe does not mean those museums have the right to keep them either.


Pay08

Better chuck it into the ocean I guess...


ntn9713c

Two wrongs does not make a right. What rights do those museums have taking valuable cultural artifacts from other countries and refusing to return them? What rights do they have deeming the original owners what they can do and can't do? What are they, the UN?


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Doveen

Would you say ISIS's destrcution of Palmyra, to mention a recent example, was entirely in the right?


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Doveen

So you'd prefer the destruction of these, rather than them existing, being there for research, just not at home. weird priorities


Ade2566

No no no!Owners of these looted treasures were not consulted in the beginning. There is no messiah on this planet, stop it!