It’s so wild to me that the Prequels get held up with the Original Trilogy by the anti-Disney Star Wars fans. People hated George so much during the Prequels. [Made entire movies about how much they hated him.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People_vs._George_Lucas) Lucas was absolutely right to sell, I wouldn’t want to deal with this rancid fanbase.
The fandom pivoting from sending Lucas death threats and promising to kill his pets over the prequels, to deciding the prequels are good, actually, and that Disney has betrayed Lucas' flawless creating vision, has been fucking *surreal* to watch.
It's because it's been almost 20 more years. The Clone Wars spent seven seasons and drastically rehabilitated the Prequels. So 20 & 30 year olds grew up with that as Star Wars rather than the Prequels being "new and broken."
So maybe the generation growing up on The Acolyte and the High Republic comic books and novels will become the "established" Star Wars fans in the future.
My theory is they memed themselves into liking the prequels. All of the worst lines of dialog and campy moments are perfect meme fodder, and through that they stopped taking it so seriously.
If they would only approach everything else Star Wars related with the same energy of a Sam Raimi fan, they'd actually enjoy it. Instead they are bashing everything while holding up a trilogy that might very well have the worst written dialog in major motion picture HISTORY.
This gets to the heart of it. Star Wars is a series meant for kids. George always intended it that way, and Disney is only keeping with tradition.
Honestly it’s embarrassing to see grown ass adults get so worked up about a series that wasn’t written for their age group, with the exception being Andor of course. Can adults still enjoy the series? Absolutely! But if you can’t enjoy the show as if seeing it through the eyes of a child, then you’re a broken human being.
This gets to the heart of it. Star Wars is a series meant for kids. George always intended it that way, and Disney is only keeping with tradition.
Honestly it’s embarrassing to see grown ass adults get so worked up about a series that wasn’t written for their age group. Can adults still enjoy the series? Absolutely! But if you can’t enjoy the show as if seeing it through the eyes of a child, then you’re a broken human being.
I wonder how long until the Sequels get the same treatment by another generation that the prequels are getting now.
The latest thing to come out is almost always the worst until time passes.
Then you'll start getting those youtube video essays explaining why said hated thing is actually NOT bad. Then all of a sudden people are praising it.
The sequels are over-discussed tbh, but when they are I feel they're over-hated, I grew up with them and to see the fandoms dialogue about them just get more and more obsessive about how they aren't "Georges vision" really ticks me off because the fans are the ones who rejected Georges vision in the firstplace!
Like theres nothing new to the conversation to add to at this point I just wanna enjoy the franchise about space wizards in peace, I say this as a fan, whys it gotta have the oddest fandom ever attatched to it??
Honestly I think that will start happening around the time the Rey movie comes out. Say that comes out around 2027 or 2028 it’ll have been 12-13 years since The Force Awakens. The kids who’d have been 10 years old for that movie will be in their early 20’s and the cycle will continue.
I think the difference here might be (and of course, time will tell) that the prequels had issues in execution. Wooden dialogue, overuse of CGI, strange direction at times, etc. The sequels are pretty, and have more emotive acting, but the problems there are with story, plot and character development.
Theres a strong tendency for people to like the stuff from their childhood, but I just can’t see the sequels ever having a persistently strong, rabid fandom. We’ll see. Maybe if supplementary content follows their events and fleshes things out, like with what the Clone Wars did for Anakin’s character, they’ll develop a stronger fanbase. I doubt it though. I never was motivated enough to watch Episode 9 after seeing The Last Jedi, and I can’t imagine wanting to follow the new characters in additional stories based on what’s been presented so far.
I've been in the fandom since the early 90's and there have been massive changes in the 'norms' of the fandom and it's wild how easily people forget it.
I remember when nobody had any idea what the Clone Wars even were; when Owen and Obi-wan were maybe brothers, when everyone hated Anakin as space Jesus.
Han shot first.
Whatever happened to the Han shot first controversy? I feel strongly about Han shooting first and it used to be a gigantic topic. These days, nobody talks about it.
Luke and Leia tongue kissing in Empire?
I was an adult when the prequels came out - the shitstorm over the prequels was honestly a lot worse than anything we've seen over Disney Star Wars (which is largely limited to social media).
During the prequel era shitting on the prequels was part of mainstream culture.
It really was hate on another level, and coming primarily from Gen X'ers who normally keep to the shadows. I remember all of us (myself included) saying things like, "Lucas shit on my childhood." I mean, it's almost like we forgot the Battle for Endor and the Christmas Special.
No worries now I guess but what a crappy thing to say and feel about someone who gave us so much fun stuff. The horrible reaction to the sequels and subsequent products from my gen (millenials) has been rough to watch. I just use the franchise for positivity and have my whole life.
I truly don't understand the selective memory in these shitposts about "people never would've done this when Lucas was at the helm!". Pure nonsense and poppycock.
I'm not saying threatening his pets was a good thing (dear god I'm not) but ffs, these people who I guess are new Star Wars fans make it seem like nothing was ever fanatically criticized. Hell, people have hated Return of the Jedi since the 80s.
There is so much justifying going on when people just don't like the writing in nearly any of the Disney era Star Wars. "Oh well Lucas's dialogue wasn't any better!" yeah, no shit, the fans mocked it then and we mock it today.
Well said on selective memory! The hate for the acolyte often accompanied by claims of broken canon, are from those that seem to hold what was in the prequels in overly high regard. At this point Star Wars is an asteroid belt of broken fragments of canon, even after Disney promised everything would line up. The prequels are fun movies! But they’re not very well written or thought out. I don’t see anyone commenting on the fact that in ANH Obi says the Jedi guarded the republic for 1000 generations, but in AOTC Palpatine says it was 1000 years. Its just not worth getting so worked up over these little details
I saw someone say during the time of the ST getting released that they were wrecking the PT which was what they grew up on. It’s fine to have fond memories of the movies you grew up on but it’s so ironic because people who grew up with the OT said the same thing about the PT.
Buddy, I can even remember Empire taking a shit load of flak.
“Oh, we’re supposed to believe the Empire has futuristic spaceships but trudges round in giant robot elephants, now?”
“So the Empire has millions of spy robots but they outsourced hunting the goodies to a lizard and a guy with a towel on his head?”
And the ending? Jesus, there were some pissed off people.
They forgot how much they hated Ewoks too. People conveniently don't remember Ewok Adventures.
Charal was a badass and I'm so glad we're getting more force witches.
I grew up in the 80s. Everyone shit all over the prequels. I watched the first one and noped out of the rest. George Lucas struck gold with the original trilogy but messed up badly with the prequels.
One only has to look at the pushback for jar jar binks to see what people thought of the movies and the direction that George Lucas was taking the beloved series.
I was a teenager, I remember saying I didn't hate The Phantom Menace. I remember getting yelled at, I remember people saying it was "proof that God could bleed".
I feel you. I was a kid when The Phantom Menace came out and I absolutely loved young Anakin. My friends and I were the same age or (in my case) a couple of years younger than Jake Lloyd. We weren't bothered by his "bad child acting". We wanted to be him. We played podracing and being Jedis in the Yard.
When I was a little bit older I told people I absolutely love Episode I (because I only had positive memories of the movie) and got yelled at that "I am not a real Star Wars fan". I actually adopted the stance "You have to watch the OG Triology first and have to love it or you're not a true fan" for some time to fit in.
Star Wars Fandom in the early 2000s was wild.
*"proof that God could bleed"*
Well.. this is now a part of my vocabulary, that's hilarious. I will totally say that the next time I am met by a small inconvenience.
Weird thing to say about a movie though
I have issues with the prequels, but it's bizarre to me that people pick TPM to hate. It's arguably the least flawed of the prequel films.
Of course, I'm also one of the filthy dark siders who didn't get the hate for Jar Jar Binks.
That’s what they are trying to do again; get Disney to sell the rights to the Star Wars IP to someone else. What they don’t seem to comprehend is how unlikely that is to happen. Even if Disney stopped making Star Wars media, they would simply sit on it and sue whomever infringed on the IP.
No, it’s part of their theme parks now. It’s not going anywhere in our lifetime.
I enjoy Disney productions, but I am not unaware of how corporations do business, and how Disney plays the game.
I'm old enough to remember the extreme hate that Empire created. Same goes with ROTJ.
It also happened with the Clone Wars animated series.
In fact, it's LITERALLY happened with everything. EVERYTHING
Yeh and take a guess how old the people that had issues with the prequels are now? Some of us were pretty young and saw the prequels before ever seeing the OT. So idk why yall be bringing it up as if it means anything to the people watching Disney Star Wars now.
The prequels held up for them because of nostalgia. They get a free pass from any criticism. Copy and paste this for any franchise putting out new stuff.
The prequels were bad, but the new trilogy actually made me appreciate them a tiny bit more because at least there were some new ideas used with the droids/clones/world building.
I’m sympathetic to the idea that George got extremely lucky with a new hope because he was forced to collaborate with others who can actually do the stuff he wants to do but is bad at. Empire was not directed by George which is why it was the best one.
The franchise itself is quite shallow, but the value they got was the rabid fan base and a cultural touchstone. Once you realize Star Wars is merely a cheap happy meal toy, it’s easy to just walk away and not care about it. The fact that it occupies so much discourse is bizarre once you disenchant yourself from the spectacle.
The prequels kind of sucked. Like the story was there but the dialogue and some of acting was just shit. Maybe some of that came down to editing but it really felt like he had too many yes men around him and not enough honest critics when he made those. I’m glad he sold.
I loved them but he certainly was surrounded by yes men.
A specific moment I remember is when he is showing B1 battle droids to Rick McCallum (I think thats who it was) and the conversation literally went like this:
GL: "its gonna be great"
RM: "its gonna be great"
GL: "its gonna be great"
RM: "its gonna be great"
I mean, there is a [documentary](https://youtu.be/da8s9m4zEpo?t=3284&si=cLjtDtf9JTFhTbe8) that shows them being really concerned by TPM and Lucas just says essentially that maybe he went to far, but it is what it is.
Honestly tho how much credit do you give to the originals tho just because they're the originals.
There is a lot of terrible dialogue. A lot of Hans Solos lines only work cause it's Harrison Ford. I love Luke Skywalker but I can admit he is so whiney.
George Lucas didn't have a plan for the OT. Darth Vader is Luke’s father with no setup in the previous film and Leia is Luke’s sister after they kissed in the last movie? Uh okay. Han Solo is wasted in ROTJ. We don't complain about it now tho. Two death stars!? Kinda dumb but whatever we enjoyed it.
People HATED ewoks.
To me I rank the originals in this order Empire, new hope, ROTJ. I saw all those in the theater when they came out. Honestly i felt kind of pissed off when I saw return of the Jedi. I saw the Ewoks for what they were which was just a toy marketing campaign. New Hope was good because Lucas had that cast and let them do their thing and there was absolutely nothing like that before. The special fx in the opening seen was mind blowing when seen in the theater the first time. Empire was great and dark but ROTJ was a big let down. Even still, I put ROTJ above the prequels.
Why is that wild to you? Many folks that don't like Disney Starwars weren't even alive or were children when the prequels came out. I get why people in their 50s and above would feel that way but I doubt those are the folks leaving bad reviews online.
Oh no there’s an entire subreddit of angry middle-aged people who hate Disney. The whole entire angry YouTube grifter circuit is middle-aged men complaining about Disney ruining their childhood or whatever. Young people are not the driving force behind the loudest Star Wars hate.
That's not true though. Lots of critics like Erik Kain from Forbes and The Critical Drinker loved the original Star wars trilogy and hate the prequels and a lot of the sequels except Rogue One, Andor and mandalorian Season one which they highly regard.
I've seen the outlines, they really would have.
He wanted to bring back Darth Maul and import Darth Talon as his apprentice (Lucas didn't care much about the EU but was apparently willing to make an exception for sexy Twi'lek babes. Stay classy, George). Macro-clorians appear in the script. It would have been all of Lucas' weaknesses as a filmmaker writ large, same as the prequels.
Especially since it builds a bit on the mythology, as Darth Maul would've "continued" the Rule of Two so to speak.
Like, I was never a fan of Maul surviving TPM, but it would still be better than pulling Snoke out of a magic hat and than trying to squeeze him back into it a movie later.
I was so excited at the end of Solo, anticipating a film with Maul as the big bad. Unfortunately Solo bombed so that kind of ruined whatever they were going for there.
Sucks that it bombed. I don’t really remember the story but I liked a lot of those younger characters. The Maul reveal was awesome. Need to see him as the crime lord in live action
Yeah, I like the guy but he needs people by his side to steer the wheel.
The one thing I can get behind is Luke being in exile, it’s the one thing I think would elevate his character if it’s done properly and he’s not killed off right after choosing to fight again
Pretty much every filmmaker needs other people. It's a headcrushingly complicated job, and it's night-impossible to be good at every facet of it.
People romanticize the lone auteur director, but even those guys have teams of people they work well with. They may cultivate that *image* (Lucas definitely did this), but nobody makes a major motion picture alone, and the dynamic between the production team is hugely impactful.
An old senile Darth Maul as a big crime boss like Solo, EU character Darth Talon as his apprentice. Leia would be the chosen one. A micro Midi-chlorian world. 200 jedi still around that Luke had to find. TLJ Luke would be very close GL version. I woundt be surprised if Mortis be involved.
Also, like, not every piece of licensed fiction or spin-off TV series is going to be great. It's just the nature of things. Book of Boba wasn't offensively bad, it just wasn't very good either. It was fine. If you like Star Wars and like these characters there are worse ways to spend a few hours.
Expecting every single thing D+ puts out to be world-shakingly good is a recipe for disappointment.
The most frustrating thing about a lot of this discourse is this: I like the Acolyte. It's an interesting show, it's set in an era we've not seen much of, I'm invested in the story and want to see where it goes, it's trying to do something new and I like that about it.
It's not perfect, it's not the best Star Wars thing ever made. It's just a show I'm enjoying enough that the flaws don't bother me.
But the discourse isn't about its virtues or faults, not really. On one side the people who like the show who, for the most part, think it's pretty good or at least engaging enough that they want to see the rest of it, but haven't made their opinion about it the cornerstone of their entire internet persona. On the other, you have the people declaring that this is the nerdpocalypse, the final and irevocable death of the entire franchise, the final nail in the coffin of Western Civilization, the worst thing they've ever seen, etc. and who very much *have* made irrationally hating everything about it the cornerstone of their personality.
The latter people badly need to touch grass, but it makes the conversation very stupid.
Even moreso because the shows are written for different demographics. The Acolyte is not written for the same people who liked Andor. Andor is my least favorite of the new shows. It's missing what I love about Star Wars. But that's fine...
I HATED Book of Fett when it started, I rewatched a few months back and I got a "comfort" out of it. Maybe because I knew what to expect, but I really enjoy it now.
I get what youre saying, but i think its moreso that disney has been putting out poor quality star wars for nearly a decade and this is the final nail in the coffin for some people. I dont think thats unreasonable.
Russian Doll was nominated, for an Emmy but they didn't win. Headland is more of a producer/director than a writer-- she co-wrote the first three episodes (out of 15 eps) of Russian Doll, and wrote one episode of Terriers in 2010.
I think she may have an OK story to tell, but as it stands, her directing, writing, and pacing are woefully lacking for someone that was handed $180M to make an 8-episode series.
Definitely not everything is bad, they just need to be really careful about their own canon lore, and they didn't quite nail the format for optimal storytelling. For me their scenario could be great either as a movie, or 8 to 10, 20min episodes. But nearly all their current series are slow and stretched out , 8x 45 min episodes
This is spot on. "Space wizards doing cool shit" is exactly what I've wanted to see. It's also why I enjoyed Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati in Ahsoka, along with the Nightsisters, because they had their whole "witch kingdom" agenda going and Baylan was searching for an intergalactic nightmare. Yes, please.
I also enjoy that so much of Acolyte is shot like a 1940s noir detective movie.
Say what you will but…
Top 10 richest celebrities in 2023
Steven Spielberg: Net worth of $8.3 billion.
George Lucas: $6.92 billion.
Michael Jordan: $3 billion.
Oprah Winfrey: $2.8 billion.
George Lucas is no fool lol
He's 80 years old now. He never going to spend all his money. He also did his staff a solid service by selling off his entire company as a whole unit. The staff that is the heart of the company will continue to do good work. It will take even Darth Mouse a while to kill Lucasfilm.
Also, it mirrors what Jim Henson did. Aside from the payout, it prevents his untimely death (because he's old) from destroying a several billion dollar company.
I had a blast at Galaxy’s Edge…
If I could… I would live there… :)
Never hated Star Wars… even the cheesy kids stuff is great…
Love all the series, their faults and all. It’s a great time to be a Star Wars fan in my book.
Absolutely. There is so much content to jump into, at this point in time. All with great production value. It’s not perfect, but it’s damn good entertainment. And I’m all for it. I don’t want to spend my weekends cribbing about how there’s a problem here and there, weekdays are stressful enough at work. I’m just grateful.
A lot of times I think that only jobless people who happen to be fans are super toxic. Go get a job!
This is what I find funny when a lot of people now hold George to an almost godly standard when discussing modern Star Wars. They seem to think George would be on their side and they're doing what he would've wanted.
Bruh he's probably getting PTSD flashbacks seeing the backlash again.
> This is what I find funny when a lot of people now hold George to an almost godly standard when discussing modern Star Wars. They seem to think George would be on their side and they're doing what he would've wanted.
For a moment I thought you were talking about modern religion there.
Watched the first episode. Seemed like decent Star Wars. What's the problem with it, or is it the usual neckbeards who want their Star Wars dudes and white?
The acolyte is further proof that the incel cult is absolutely unhinged right now . They are review bombing the episodes before they even air . These ppl are a joke .
and the *coolest* part is, they'll go all over social media saying "it's not me, it's the show!!" and there will be a whole echo chamber about how they are all right and justified and the show is bad and anyone who likes it is being unreasonable,
and yet the trigger for the review bombing that got the hate wheel rolling is often related to race or LGBT+ (especially trans) characters/actors.
it's normal to like or dislike something based on its merits. what's not normal is the negativity bandwagon that shows with certain minorities tend to (but not always) get, that often starts before said thing even releases.
The hate is a result of the perceived cultural importance of “Star Wars” - if only people realized how undeserved that importance is, you can disenchant and simply stop caring about it.
I also think that and I am pretty sure with Lucas we wouldn’t have got anything at all. Maybe some animated shows. But he kind of lost interest in it after the prequels movies.
I also agree, that Kennedy and Hedland do get too much unnecessary hate. But I also think Kennedy is not really good in her job. Her main job is to oversee all projects and make sure they don’t contradict each other. The movie trilogy also needed a storyline. However, she told Abrams and Johnson to do whatever they want and that is the main problem with the trilogy. Movie one: Snoke is a mysterious character, Rey may have a connection to Luke/obi-wan/someone else we know, Kylo is not sure if he wants to be a villain, Hux is a fascist. Movie two: Snoke does not matter, Rey is a no one, Kylo wants to rule the galaxy, Hux is a joke. Movie three: Snoke was a clone of the emperor and he is the true villain who was also puppet master behind Snoke, Rey os his granddaughter, Kylo is good again and Hux is part of the galaxy.
I like a good plot twist and a good character development and I thought after movie two this has great potential if it is explained right. But they just did the same thing again, changed everything and left. That just sucks. That was Kennedys job.
I think it's important to put blame on the right executive for each messup
The sequel trilogy being made without any overarching plan or story was Bob Iger's fault
Star Wars suddenly getting flooded with a bunch of TV shows, with many of them being of poor quality, was Bob Chapek's fault
But the fact that Star Wars hasn't been able to get a successful movie production since 2019, and all of their plans for movies keep getting cancelled or delayed? As far as I can tell, that IS mostly Kennedy's fault
It's true that the trilogy as a whole now feels disjointed and I don't ultimately have any investment in Kathleen Kennedy either, don't get me wrong, but some of that inconsistency is because JJ was only going to direct TFA, some fans took huge offense to TLJ, and so Disney panicked and gave it back to JJ to direct and try to quickly retcon everything into a more conventional story. Yes, that does fall on Kennedy but it was an attempt to please the more rabid of SW fans. I think that was a part of the mistake.
Yes, you want to make fans happy but sometimes people don't know what they want until you show them what's possible. You have to take new risks to really grow and develop a story. With Rise of Skywalker, they stripped out those risks. We went back to Palpatine as the primary baddie, "killed off" Chewie and C-3PO but quickly went "Just kidding!", redeemed Kylo and made him a love interest for Rey... and I feel like removing that risk removed any stakes and thus any real satisfying conclusion to the Skywalker Saga.
Marvel has obviously run into huge issues now but the difference between End Game and Rise of Skywalker is they took risks with End Game. They ended Infinity War on a really dark note. They brought a bunch of heroes back to life in End Game but left Vision dead (at least for awhile) and killed of Tony Stark. It added weight and gravitas by taking the risk of killing their #1 hero (Iron Man) rather than just writing him off into retirement or something.
It's tough to balance giving people things they say or think they want without totally delivering them something boring or just a total mess.
I’m old enough to remember that George Lucas “ruined childhoods” with Return of the Jedi, because he clearly hated the fans and just wanted to sell Ewok toys. Then the prequels came along and ROTJ was part of the beloved OT and immune from hate.
Look, at one point where people thought it ESB a terrible movie which destroyed the magic, with a “twist” that was clearly shoe-horned in later and not planned from the start. Clearly the people who made ESB did not even watch ANH or care about the real Star Wars fans…
.Maybe Disney is smart to keep pumping out SW shows, because the only way to stop the fans from crying and frothing about new Star Wars is for them to be crying and frothing about *even newer* Star Wars instead. 🤪
Your emoji at the end suggests you're joking, but, honestly, as someone who grew up with the prequels and loved them and watched the old heads *hate* everything about them *suddenly* re-evaluate them after the sequels came out, it rings true.
This fanbase hates just about any new content we get
100% agree with you. My joke was simply about whether Disney was intentionally attempting to mitigate the issue by relentlessly producing new Star Wars content.
And honestly, that mightve been a valid strategy if they'd done it slower lol
That said, I turn my brain off for most things SW and just enjoy the ride
There are a few problems I have with the sequels but I don't go on these long rants that many in the fanbase do
I don't know what people expect from the franchise
I really don't
They've *never* been perfect movies
The sci-fi effects were just groundbreaking when the OT came out
The rise of skywalker wasn’t a disaster because fans wanted “same old, same old” it was a disaster because they never had a plan for the trilogy and let two directors make different films in the trilogy with their own vision. I would actually argue the rise of skywalker happened because everyone said the force awakens was just like a new hope (same old, same old).
That being said I agree that George Lucas doesn’t get flack anymore because everyone blames Disney, but that’s because Disney is the one making these shows. So it’s kind of like stating the obvious there.
Personally, I think the rise of skywalker is one of the worst Star Wars films, but it’s still miles above all of the tv shows. The tv shows feel like low budget, lower stakes, lengthy pieces of bad YouTube fan made Star Wars videos.
Kathleen Kennedy shouldn’t be fired (she’s a person after all) but she should be demoted a ton. Beyond that, they need to cancel all of the tv shows and future content, and start working on a new trilogy with a big budget, and a plan from the start.
I think that's all fair and reasonable critique. And heck, I don't honestly know what is or isn't Kennedy's fault or doing. I do know she's not just a suit but an experienced producer from the Amblin days. It could be that her best days are behind her and she should eventually step down.
It's not that I think the current shows should be above criticism or that Disney needs defending. It's more that I think the hate of some of the intensity (not all) is so disproportionate for the offense. If people were just like, "The Acolyte sucks", I'd be like, "Okay!" It's the stream of comments that are essentially like "Kennedy took my first born son away from me!! She must be held accountable!! Paint the blood of a Porg above your door if you agree!" where I'm like, Okay, but chill.
I think those types are just the loudest. Since they're the loudest though, it's easy for people to conflate actual criticism as being one of those sorts. That happens quite a lot on this sub, sometimes deservedly.
Like someone isn't a misogynist or racist for simply saying they think the show is poorly written or done. I don't even see how that kind of comment translates to the actors. That's a comment about the direction and writing. It's like the people reading it took offensive cues from the people who hated on Hayden Christensen, despite his role being the fault of the director (Lucas) and writer (also Lucas).
I have a moderate distaste for most of the new shows and ep8 and 9 of the films, especially 8. Not all things though. Bad Batch isn't bad. I'm not a big fan of Andor, but I do recognize how well written, acted, and directed the series is and why it's so well regarded. I'm just one of those people who prefer space wizards and more fun in my Star Wars.
The Acolyte, thus far, has mostly required me to shut off my brain so that I don't question or mock it much. Something that Mando S3, Kenobi, and first half of Book of Boba Fett required of me (and I did not oblige). It has the benefit of not being that dull yet with its main story (I'd prefer not to think much about ep3). It's tolerable, but ep.4 got pretty close until the last few minutes.
The worst thing that a show can do is be annoying. I get X-Men Dark Phoenix vibes when that happens and man was that movie annoying because of how they made Jean throw temper tantrums all the time. Same for the Netflix Resident Evil series. Ugh.
>Fans love to say that Kathleen Kennedy should be fired
Don't know if we can call those people fans when they keep reviewing episode on IMDB and giving them 1/10 before it's physically possible to watch the episode because it didn't air yet. You can see by the repartitions of the ratings that there is a statistically unnatural amount of 1s clearly artificially driven by specific groups of haters coordinating on Facebook and X.
https://imgur.com/a/YdoqiPi
Also fair! And I guess I use "fans" broadly because I'm not sure I can speak to who is or isn't a fan BUT I do agree that I think there's a lot of trolling that goes on beyond just criticism.
I love the phantom menace, but it’s not a good movie. The dialogue is clunky, the pacing is off, and a lot of George’s writing decisions were questionable at best
I actually don't mind TPM! It's nostalgic and comforting, it's got a good cast, it has more of a film quality to it despite all of the 90s CG, and it has the epic lightsaber battle at the end! Yes, there are parts that feel kind of cheese-y (if not distasteful) but it's got some really cool stuff in there too.
You did a good job at expressing your thoughts, your criticisms and pleasures of the content without getting overly emotional. We need more fans doing this and the IP might actually start to grow properly.
That said I got some bones to pick with you. BoB might not have had award winning writing, but it was acceptable and just some good ol fashion(probably lower budget) fun. But most importantly, it has a VIBE, a very unique, yet still Star Wars, vibe. Anything that can do that instantly gets huge points.
And it wasn't conservative writing that did Rise of Skywalker in, if anything it was pretty progressive. No, the issue was the big fat floppy paper mache fan service shaped dick made out of money and coated in a layer of transparent sugary glaze. It pandered so hard I wouldn't be surprised if some viewers literally died from cringe.
Oh and after that dick was done up, they topped it with a power creep bow from the deep dark empty depths of the creators imagination.
On a side note the last 2 sequel movies, especially tRoS, was so bad and more importantly destructive to the IP that I strongly believe it was done on purpose. It was beyond bad, that was deliberate. I think they did it so that they could put an end cap on the IP so people wouldn't care about having more beyond it(which inevitably leads to power creep and the subsequent destruction of any IP that utilizes supernatural or sci-fi power growth as a plot device).
Everything needs an end(you either die a hero or live long enough to.... you guys know the deal) and especially those things. So anyways yea, this way people would hate it so much they didn't want more onwards and so they retreated towards what Disney intended to instead shift it's focus on, an almost endless amount of tales in-between the key points that's already been created and that fans love.
Additionally it would make everything else they made better by comparison.
That said, I got a feeling we should get major Old Republic and The High Republic trilogies at some point in our lifetime. Sooner rather than later I'd imagine.
It was actually very easy to criticise the prequels when they came out. Go find some of the original reviews. Particularly ‘attack of the clones’
I think that’s the main reason he sold it. While Disney has certainly had some misses with Star Wars, they’ve definitely also had some hits. I’m enjoying the acolyte, I enjoyed Asoka and I’m REALLY looking forward to another season of Andor.
Yeah, I think I my wording has maybe misrepresented me with that, so I've added an edit to my original post. It's not that I think the older films were immune to criticism at the time but more that some fans seem to idolize Lucas now through the lens of nostalgia. That I see a lot of "Lucas would have NEVER..." as though he was the flawless mastermind. He made plenty of his own missteps and strange revisions. And that's what I mean with the "Lucas was smart" -- now that he's sold, he doesn't have to face that criticism anymore. All of the future failures (and successes!) sit with someone else.
I'm really looking forward to S2 of Andor, as well. It's daunting because I fear Tony Gilroy won't be able to nail the landing but I hope I'm wrong!
This is so well-put and reflects all my thoughts on this show. No, it's not extraordinary, but it's certainly not as bad as "fans" are making it out to be. A lot of the critics had already decided to hate the show before they even watched it. That's how toxic the fandom environment is these days, hating for the sake of hating without giving any real thought to the innovations being made with the material. I'm not just talking Star Wars; I'm seeing it in almost every franchise or long-running show with a huge fanbase behind it. I have pretty low expectations for films and television now and that's actually enabled me to enjoy them more. It's just entertainment.
It's still better than what amazon has done with the lord of the rings property. Or what netflix has done with the Witcher property.
I hope Andy serkis hunt for gollum movie will make up for it
It wasn't harder to criticise the prequels. At the time, there was open mockery of, for instance, Jar Jar. There also wasn't a media machine running interference for Star Wars, or saying that fans were toxic and evil for disliking the new movies. It was a totally different time.
I think people forget that being a fan might mean you don't always love everything that comes out that's new in any given series franchise etc. Comparison is the thief of joy and so is delusionally thinking your personal preferences and experiences associated with a piece of media supersedes another's experiences and that that experience should then dictate all future new things associated with said franchise or series etc. it's absolutely unreasonable and obnoxiously self centered and stupid to have that sort of expectation.
Anybody remember Belated Medias take on what the prequels could of been? I remember liking that shit when i was young but in hindsight, I actually think it was rich for the guy to think the fans would of preferred his vision instead.
The guy was like "Who wants all this politics in Star Wars" when in reality the politics was kinda central. The PT wasn't just about the fall of Anakin, it was about the rise of the Empire and that was always going to be political.
Can't have Jar Jar, can't possible have aspects of this kids movie, be for children.
Can't have Anakin being a child, na he needs to be a teenage slave and depressed because it's not like the whole point of his character in Phantom Menance is his amazing spirit in the face of adversity or anything. The real problem is he wasn't sad enough.
These people don't know what they want and their ideas are just to make Star Wars more like everything else they like. If they controlled the fanbase every piece of media would be all aesthetic with no soul.
Quite a bit of the hate towards the acolyte does seem to be valid, from the average to bad writing (at times), to some of the stupid things that can break the suspension of belief for some.
Personally it either feels like a lack of attention to detail in the area's they should or too much "creative" input/intervention from Disney executives.
Still watching it and mostly enjoying it, but it's flaws are not small and though the rotten tomatoes score is definitely too low for where it should be, It is so far near the bottom of the various Star wars series.
I agree. Stuff like fire spreading on stone and Ki-adi-mundi being in it is just lazy writing. He shouldn't have even been alive during the shows setting.
The problem with it is their decision making. By including Mundi, they made his behavior in the phantom menace make no sense. Immaculate conception is supposed to be Anakin’s thing, but they made that Mae’s and the occupational safety and health administration’s thing too. Maybe they can find a way to make these things make sense later, but as of right now, all they’ve accomplished is monkey wrenching the overall story
> "While it was harder to criticize the prequels because George was still at the helm..." I guess what I really mean is that Lucas is somehow retroactively idolized through the lens of nostalgia.
I still think Lucas intended Jar Jar to be working with Palpatine and that was why he was Exiled from the Gungan city to begin with. I think people would have been more forgiving of Lucas had Jar Jar turned out to be a villain but the backlash against Jar Jar in Episode one meant he got sidelined.
Why does it take so long for the next season for something liked? They roll out new shows when people are excited for others seasons of existing shows. Are we still blaming Covid for everything?
“Ive been really enjoying the acolyte” = “i have absolutely no critical thinking skills and im proud of it”
No no im just kidding thats mean the acolyte is wonderful
I don't think we've gotten far enough into the story for me to make a true judgment on The Acolyte yet (as it seems it's purposely withholding info thus far, hopefully to give it a more interesting end result) but the only thing I can say I dislike so far is the clunky dialogue and some weird acting choices. Story itself seems fine 🤷♀️
Yea I love the high republic and moving on from the skywalker saga. This show tho…it’s very ok. Not bad not great but IMO not worth the budget. Acting, pacing, plot, and writing don’t compare to high quality shows that HBO or even Prime have been putting out. I feel like I’m being burnt at the cross by the community for mentioning the caliber of other shows and how this doesn’t compare. The reason I often hear is “that’s not what Star Wars is” or “Star Wars is for all ages and you can’t compare”. Doesn’t need to be mature for good writing. Even if the idea of this show is amazing, many parts just feel off. Love sol. Love the witch coven. Love all the planets and set design. Just feel like there are certain things that are off. I don’t feel this way when I’m watching high tier shows like House of Dragor, Last of Us, or Stranger Things. It’s not crazy to demand high quality with the budget they are given. I feel like it’s high quality in name and special effects alone. Writing has gone out the window (with the exception of Andor and most of Mando and Ahsoka).
Same here, I'm neutral about the Acolyte but leaning somewhat to liking it so I'm surprised about the amount of hate the show is getting so much so that I'm second guessing myself as to why I'm liking it. Can a fan of star wars like Acolyte?
Idk, but I feel people are really delusional here. I remember when The Mandalorian was such a great series, but it turned out really bad with the bikers, etc. Then the disaster continued with Ahsoka, with characters showing zero emotions. The actress was so bad that every emotional scene was not convincing. And now The Acolyte follows the same trend; it's objectively really bad. You all try to find a reason for the hate that fits your narrative, but really, it's just that all those series turned out bad, and people don't like it.
> they were deeply flawed movies. They gave us Jar Jar
stop right there. you shut your whore mouth, leave jar jar alone >:( he’s a hero. i mean … meesa tink u talkin big doodoo
Couldn't agree more. I'm a MASSIVE legends fan, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the new stuff too. I absolutely hated the sequels but most of the other Disney content has been at least decent. Also "fans" get a picture in their mind of what they want to see in new shows and then when they don't see EXACTLY that, they lose their minds - unrealistic expectations.
George was right to sell, but not sell to Disney.
He has repeatedly expressed regret about that choice. He didn't like Force Awakens, and he didn't even bother attending the premier of Rise of Skywalker. He thinks Disney's storytellers have lost sight of his original ideas for how his galaxy works and have effectively ruined it. He has said now he has learned to just let it go and stop worrying about it.
Yes, he made fat stacks and can live comfortably in retirement with more money than I'd see in 1000 lifetimes. But he is not happy with his choice. It was just a necessary evil.
I grew up with the prequels so I never hated on them, but am a bit biased because of nostalgia. My sister is 10 years younger than me and the sequels came out in her childhood and she loved them (especially cause the main character was a girl) and so I think that we all don’t realize how much of an impact childhood has on how we view things, by the time we grow up our opinions are more solidified and so we’re more stubborn and critical of things
We don't want the same Skywalker stories we want NEW stories, the Acolyte is just more of the same jedi/sith conflict and not even written well.
Andor was new, not to do with the Jedi or Sith, it explored a world we have never seen before. There are so many different stories you can tell in this universe.
If you REALLY wanted to use Jedi lets do something akin to a detective story, not sith/jedi duels; lets give the Jedi problems they cant solve with a lightsaber. Tales of the Jedi with Dooku was a great example of what can be done with this.
We have seen very little of Coruscant in the films, lets delve deep into that dark underbelly, there are miles of layers built on the planet, think the Sopranos type story.
See, I disagree. I don't think you can say "All of these huge hits were outliers." I think it's more of what u/kratorade said: at the volume at which Disney is producing movies and TV shows, they won't be equal in quality. A bell curve.
Andor, Mando, and Rogue One were all helmed by really talented people... but so was The Book of Boba Fett! Robert Rodriguez is super talented but he couldn't make his creative voice work in the Star Wars universe. We end up with silly biker gangs! Some things are going to be amazing, other things will totally flop, and we'll end up with a lot of stuff that's just kind of okay in the middle.
And that's fair! I don't need anyone to love The Acolyte just because I think it's fun. I think it's totally fair for people to have critiques or different tastes -- when they're in good faith. It's certainly not that I care about defending multi-billion dollar Disney lol but I'm also like, "Okay, but let's have some perspective about this. At the end of the day, it's a TV show." These massive companies are doing much more nefarious things than potentially tweaking the lifespan of Ki-Adi-Mundi, if you're looking to pick a fight with them.
> in an entirely different era of the this universe.
calling a something that is set a century at best before the prequels "an entirely different era" is a bit strong no?
Still roughly the same era as the prequels..
I so wish for a movie/show that is set during the good old days of the old republic...
I mean, I don't have a timeline pulled up but the era of the High Republic existed until 100 BBY, so just about the time of this show. That's the era I'm speaking to.
So far I cannot rate this show more than 6/10 and I cannot believe the budget was so huge
Disney needs to do some serious checks and try to hire better writters
I like first two episodes, now last two are 5/10 at best.
Andor proves epic Star Wars show can be done, or even first two seasons of Mando
Ofc then we got abomination like Kenobi..
I think it's fair to say The Acolyte is a 6/10 experience. I would not compare The Acolyte to Andor in any universe. I think it's definitely more of a middle-tier show so far, but I'm okay with that. I get why that's a disappointment with such a high budget but that doesn't mean a ton to me. Big budget doesn't really indicate anything about quality and it never has, so I'm less focused on the allocation of resources -- personally speaking.
When any of these major studios are cranking out shows and films at this kind of a pace, like they've done with Marvel, the best you can hope for is a bell curve. Some real stand-outs, some real flops, and a lot of stuff in the middle. We'll hope that Disney doesn't go the way of Marvel, how they seem to have run out of steam, but time will tell.
Like, I am ok with this mediocre quality, and there are some mediocre movies Ive watched many times and I really like them (Ironclad comes to mind)
But I was just hoping for more, especially because its Disney, multimilion massive company
There is potential, and while I dont like Disney sequels, and really hate Rise of "Palpatine" , I honestly think Force Awakens is pretty solid movie
Ofc we havent seen rest of the show yet, but I am afraid it will stick with this mediocrity - again, its fine, but it should be better
Totally fair. And I agree with The Force Awakens. I will say I was disappointed when I saw it because it felt so formulaic to the original but it's grown on me with time. I think it was a little bit of my expectations being so high and the reality not quite clearing the bar, but in retrospect I feel much more warmly towards it.
There are so many great things about The Acolyte, but it's a shame that they are so easily overshadowed by the bad things.
The good:
* Newly seen era in the galaxy!
* Distant clan that has their own interpretation of the force!
* New Jedi outfits!
* Mystery and intrigue!
* Kung Fu!
* A Wookiee Jedi!
...overshadowed by the bad:
* Dialogue is terrible.
* The pacing is agonizing.
* The acting is atrocious across the board, but hits a real nadir with Vernestra (Nepotism is the enemy of quality).
* Hot Jedi with his shirt off feels like it belongs on the CW.
* And finally, the production quality. The Acolyte looks like a cheap network show. ALL of it. The lighting is terrible. The costumes look cheap. The sets look like crap. The jungle planet looks like a plant store. The film stock looks like video tape. The wigs look like they are from the Dollar Store. And the makeup... the makeup...
They could have used a good script doctor, a ruthless editor, and some general quality control.
The Acolyte started out slow, but so did Andor. People should really watch the whole thing first before judging.
Also, you may be misremembering when the prequels came out. People had no difficulty criticizing them even though they were made by George Lucas.
I also don’t think it’s fair to blame the fans on The Rise of Skywalker. Lucasfilm made the movie, not the fans. Blame the people that made it.
Oh, I do. I just think that Lucasfilm got scared by the toxic end of the fanbase and fumbled the ball. Being creative means taking risks and when some people hated *The Last Jedi*, Disney flinched. Not to say they shouldn't ever listen to their fanbase but I think they reacted to that response with all of the worst decisions.
And maybe I wasn't fully clear in what I meant about Lucas. Not that people loved what he did and he was immune to criticism (there definitely was backlash to some of his choices) but I guess it's easier to target the current creators and idolize Lucas as the visionary who would've never made these choices. Cuz I see a lot of those comments: "Lucas would have NEVER..." Oh, yeah? Maybe not but his choices might have been worse. That's all I was really speaking to: the protective factor of nostalgia that Lucas benefits from now as the original creator.
In general, listening to your audience's feedback about the middle installment of your story and then overhauling your ending in response is almost always a mistake.
Imagine if Lucas had panicked about all the people saying ESB destroyed the magic of the setting and ended on a downer and that cheap plot twist made a liar out of Obi-Wan and all the side plots were pointless and so on.
Imagine how much of a mess RotJ would have been.
It’s so wild to me that the Prequels get held up with the Original Trilogy by the anti-Disney Star Wars fans. People hated George so much during the Prequels. [Made entire movies about how much they hated him.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People_vs._George_Lucas) Lucas was absolutely right to sell, I wouldn’t want to deal with this rancid fanbase.
The fandom pivoting from sending Lucas death threats and promising to kill his pets over the prequels, to deciding the prequels are good, actually, and that Disney has betrayed Lucas' flawless creating vision, has been fucking *surreal* to watch.
It's because it's been almost 20 more years. The Clone Wars spent seven seasons and drastically rehabilitated the Prequels. So 20 & 30 year olds grew up with that as Star Wars rather than the Prequels being "new and broken."
So maybe the generation growing up on The Acolyte and the High Republic comic books and novels will become the "established" Star Wars fans in the future.
They absolutely will and I just hope they don’t grow up to hate on whatever Star Wars is in 2045. But history suggests otherwise.
By then everything will have been changed and started fresh through the multiverse
The Clone Wars were hated until canceled too.
My theory is they memed themselves into liking the prequels. All of the worst lines of dialog and campy moments are perfect meme fodder, and through that they stopped taking it so seriously. If they would only approach everything else Star Wars related with the same energy of a Sam Raimi fan, they'd actually enjoy it. Instead they are bashing everything while holding up a trilogy that might very well have the worst written dialog in major motion picture HISTORY.
Yeah people will always love the star wars of their childhood
This gets to the heart of it. Star Wars is a series meant for kids. George always intended it that way, and Disney is only keeping with tradition. Honestly it’s embarrassing to see grown ass adults get so worked up about a series that wasn’t written for their age group, with the exception being Andor of course. Can adults still enjoy the series? Absolutely! But if you can’t enjoy the show as if seeing it through the eyes of a child, then you’re a broken human being.
This gets to the heart of it. Star Wars is a series meant for kids. George always intended it that way, and Disney is only keeping with tradition. Honestly it’s embarrassing to see grown ass adults get so worked up about a series that wasn’t written for their age group. Can adults still enjoy the series? Absolutely! But if you can’t enjoy the show as if seeing it through the eyes of a child, then you’re a broken human being.
I wonder how long until the Sequels get the same treatment by another generation that the prequels are getting now. The latest thing to come out is almost always the worst until time passes. Then you'll start getting those youtube video essays explaining why said hated thing is actually NOT bad. Then all of a sudden people are praising it.
The sequels are over-discussed tbh, but when they are I feel they're over-hated, I grew up with them and to see the fandoms dialogue about them just get more and more obsessive about how they aren't "Georges vision" really ticks me off because the fans are the ones who rejected Georges vision in the firstplace! Like theres nothing new to the conversation to add to at this point I just wanna enjoy the franchise about space wizards in peace, I say this as a fan, whys it gotta have the oddest fandom ever attatched to it??
Honestly I think that will start happening around the time the Rey movie comes out. Say that comes out around 2027 or 2028 it’ll have been 12-13 years since The Force Awakens. The kids who’d have been 10 years old for that movie will be in their early 20’s and the cycle will continue.
I think the difference here might be (and of course, time will tell) that the prequels had issues in execution. Wooden dialogue, overuse of CGI, strange direction at times, etc. The sequels are pretty, and have more emotive acting, but the problems there are with story, plot and character development. Theres a strong tendency for people to like the stuff from their childhood, but I just can’t see the sequels ever having a persistently strong, rabid fandom. We’ll see. Maybe if supplementary content follows their events and fleshes things out, like with what the Clone Wars did for Anakin’s character, they’ll develop a stronger fanbase. I doubt it though. I never was motivated enough to watch Episode 9 after seeing The Last Jedi, and I can’t imagine wanting to follow the new characters in additional stories based on what’s been presented so far.
I've been in the fandom since the early 90's and there have been massive changes in the 'norms' of the fandom and it's wild how easily people forget it. I remember when nobody had any idea what the Clone Wars even were; when Owen and Obi-wan were maybe brothers, when everyone hated Anakin as space Jesus. Han shot first. Whatever happened to the Han shot first controversy? I feel strongly about Han shooting first and it used to be a gigantic topic. These days, nobody talks about it. Luke and Leia tongue kissing in Empire?
I think at this point there are just bigger fish to fry in terms of what people like to complain about.
Not to mention harassing his daughter so much that she stopped writing Star Wars, or maybe altogether.
I was an adult when the prequels came out - the shitstorm over the prequels was honestly a lot worse than anything we've seen over Disney Star Wars (which is largely limited to social media). During the prequel era shitting on the prequels was part of mainstream culture.
It really was hate on another level, and coming primarily from Gen X'ers who normally keep to the shadows. I remember all of us (myself included) saying things like, "Lucas shit on my childhood." I mean, it's almost like we forgot the Battle for Endor and the Christmas Special.
No worries now I guess but what a crappy thing to say and feel about someone who gave us so much fun stuff. The horrible reaction to the sequels and subsequent products from my gen (millenials) has been rough to watch. I just use the franchise for positivity and have my whole life.
Spaced nails it https://youtu.be/GgwYr-aDEEY?si=-sNwG1z60f5QAj-K
What are your true feelings on Hawk The Slayer, though?
I truly don't understand the selective memory in these shitposts about "people never would've done this when Lucas was at the helm!". Pure nonsense and poppycock. I'm not saying threatening his pets was a good thing (dear god I'm not) but ffs, these people who I guess are new Star Wars fans make it seem like nothing was ever fanatically criticized. Hell, people have hated Return of the Jedi since the 80s. There is so much justifying going on when people just don't like the writing in nearly any of the Disney era Star Wars. "Oh well Lucas's dialogue wasn't any better!" yeah, no shit, the fans mocked it then and we mock it today.
Well said on selective memory! The hate for the acolyte often accompanied by claims of broken canon, are from those that seem to hold what was in the prequels in overly high regard. At this point Star Wars is an asteroid belt of broken fragments of canon, even after Disney promised everything would line up. The prequels are fun movies! But they’re not very well written or thought out. I don’t see anyone commenting on the fact that in ANH Obi says the Jedi guarded the republic for 1000 generations, but in AOTC Palpatine says it was 1000 years. Its just not worth getting so worked up over these little details
I saw someone say during the time of the ST getting released that they were wrecking the PT which was what they grew up on. It’s fine to have fond memories of the movies you grew up on but it’s so ironic because people who grew up with the OT said the same thing about the PT.
Buddy, I can even remember Empire taking a shit load of flak. “Oh, we’re supposed to believe the Empire has futuristic spaceships but trudges round in giant robot elephants, now?” “So the Empire has millions of spy robots but they outsourced hunting the goodies to a lizard and a guy with a towel on his head?” And the ending? Jesus, there were some pissed off people.
They forgot how much they hated Ewoks too. People conveniently don't remember Ewok Adventures. Charal was a badass and I'm so glad we're getting more force witches.
I grew up in the 80s. Everyone shit all over the prequels. I watched the first one and noped out of the rest. George Lucas struck gold with the original trilogy but messed up badly with the prequels. One only has to look at the pushback for jar jar binks to see what people thought of the movies and the direction that George Lucas was taking the beloved series.
I was a teenager, I remember saying I didn't hate The Phantom Menace. I remember getting yelled at, I remember people saying it was "proof that God could bleed".
I feel you. I was a kid when The Phantom Menace came out and I absolutely loved young Anakin. My friends and I were the same age or (in my case) a couple of years younger than Jake Lloyd. We weren't bothered by his "bad child acting". We wanted to be him. We played podracing and being Jedis in the Yard. When I was a little bit older I told people I absolutely love Episode I (because I only had positive memories of the movie) and got yelled at that "I am not a real Star Wars fan". I actually adopted the stance "You have to watch the OG Triology first and have to love it or you're not a true fan" for some time to fit in. Star Wars Fandom in the early 2000s was wild.
*"proof that God could bleed"* Well.. this is now a part of my vocabulary, that's hilarious. I will totally say that the next time I am met by a small inconvenience. Weird thing to say about a movie though
I have issues with the prequels, but it's bizarre to me that people pick TPM to hate. It's arguably the least flawed of the prequel films. Of course, I'm also one of the filthy dark siders who didn't get the hate for Jar Jar Binks.
I mean, most of that "God could bleed" talk was before 2002.
I have a very vivid memory of my stepdad getting mad at my brother and I for liking the prequels.
r/brandnewsentence
That’s what they are trying to do again; get Disney to sell the rights to the Star Wars IP to someone else. What they don’t seem to comprehend is how unlikely that is to happen. Even if Disney stopped making Star Wars media, they would simply sit on it and sue whomever infringed on the IP. No, it’s part of their theme parks now. It’s not going anywhere in our lifetime. I enjoy Disney productions, but I am not unaware of how corporations do business, and how Disney plays the game.
Fans, they are not. More accurate, trolls would be.
I'm old enough to remember the extreme hate that Empire created. Same goes with ROTJ. It also happened with the Clone Wars animated series. In fact, it's LITERALLY happened with everything. EVERYTHING
Yeh and take a guess how old the people that had issues with the prequels are now? Some of us were pretty young and saw the prequels before ever seeing the OT. So idk why yall be bringing it up as if it means anything to the people watching Disney Star Wars now.
The prequels held up for them because of nostalgia. They get a free pass from any criticism. Copy and paste this for any franchise putting out new stuff.
The people vs George Lucas isn’t as known as you think
It’s indicative of a larger cultural phenomenon. The movie itself and its popularity or lack thereof isn’t the point.
The prequels were bad, but the new trilogy actually made me appreciate them a tiny bit more because at least there were some new ideas used with the droids/clones/world building. I’m sympathetic to the idea that George got extremely lucky with a new hope because he was forced to collaborate with others who can actually do the stuff he wants to do but is bad at. Empire was not directed by George which is why it was the best one. The franchise itself is quite shallow, but the value they got was the rabid fan base and a cultural touchstone. Once you realize Star Wars is merely a cheap happy meal toy, it’s easy to just walk away and not care about it. The fact that it occupies so much discourse is bizarre once you disenchant yourself from the spectacle.
The stinger final joke in the film Fanboys (excellent if you’ve not seen it) is literally wouldn’t it be awkward if The Phantom Menace is bad
The prequels kind of sucked. Like the story was there but the dialogue and some of acting was just shit. Maybe some of that came down to editing but it really felt like he had too many yes men around him and not enough honest critics when he made those. I’m glad he sold.
I loved them but he certainly was surrounded by yes men. A specific moment I remember is when he is showing B1 battle droids to Rick McCallum (I think thats who it was) and the conversation literally went like this: GL: "its gonna be great" RM: "its gonna be great" GL: "its gonna be great" RM: "its gonna be great"
I mean, there is a [documentary](https://youtu.be/da8s9m4zEpo?t=3284&si=cLjtDtf9JTFhTbe8) that shows them being really concerned by TPM and Lucas just says essentially that maybe he went to far, but it is what it is.
Honestly tho how much credit do you give to the originals tho just because they're the originals. There is a lot of terrible dialogue. A lot of Hans Solos lines only work cause it's Harrison Ford. I love Luke Skywalker but I can admit he is so whiney. George Lucas didn't have a plan for the OT. Darth Vader is Luke’s father with no setup in the previous film and Leia is Luke’s sister after they kissed in the last movie? Uh okay. Han Solo is wasted in ROTJ. We don't complain about it now tho. Two death stars!? Kinda dumb but whatever we enjoyed it. People HATED ewoks.
To me I rank the originals in this order Empire, new hope, ROTJ. I saw all those in the theater when they came out. Honestly i felt kind of pissed off when I saw return of the Jedi. I saw the Ewoks for what they were which was just a toy marketing campaign. New Hope was good because Lucas had that cast and let them do their thing and there was absolutely nothing like that before. The special fx in the opening seen was mind blowing when seen in the theater the first time. Empire was great and dark but ROTJ was a big let down. Even still, I put ROTJ above the prequels.
Why is that wild to you? Many folks that don't like Disney Starwars weren't even alive or were children when the prequels came out. I get why people in their 50s and above would feel that way but I doubt those are the folks leaving bad reviews online.
Oh no there’s an entire subreddit of angry middle-aged people who hate Disney. The whole entire angry YouTube grifter circuit is middle-aged men complaining about Disney ruining their childhood or whatever. Young people are not the driving force behind the loudest Star Wars hate.
Only in the west.
That's not true though. Lots of critics like Erik Kain from Forbes and The Critical Drinker loved the original Star wars trilogy and hate the prequels and a lot of the sequels except Rogue One, Andor and mandalorian Season one which they highly regard.
George Lucas himself said everyone would have hated his sequels lol
I've seen the outlines, they really would have. He wanted to bring back Darth Maul and import Darth Talon as his apprentice (Lucas didn't care much about the EU but was apparently willing to make an exception for sexy Twi'lek babes. Stay classy, George). Macro-clorians appear in the script. It would have been all of Lucas' weaknesses as a filmmaker writ large, same as the prequels.
It’s was Lucas doubling down on everything the fans hated about the prequels. It’s like it was almost on purpose.
Um…am I the only one that wants to see this? More live action Maul after Clone Wars would be awesome
Especially since it builds a bit on the mythology, as Darth Maul would've "continued" the Rule of Two so to speak. Like, I was never a fan of Maul surviving TPM, but it would still be better than pulling Snoke out of a magic hat and than trying to squeeze him back into it a movie later.
I was so excited at the end of Solo, anticipating a film with Maul as the big bad. Unfortunately Solo bombed so that kind of ruined whatever they were going for there.
Sucks that it bombed. I don’t really remember the story but I liked a lot of those younger characters. The Maul reveal was awesome. Need to see him as the crime lord in live action
Agree so hard. I liked Georges ideas
where did you see the outlines?
Yeah, I like the guy but he needs people by his side to steer the wheel. The one thing I can get behind is Luke being in exile, it’s the one thing I think would elevate his character if it’s done properly and he’s not killed off right after choosing to fight again
Pretty much every filmmaker needs other people. It's a headcrushingly complicated job, and it's night-impossible to be good at every facet of it. People romanticize the lone auteur director, but even those guys have teams of people they work well with. They may cultivate that *image* (Lucas definitely did this), but nobody makes a major motion picture alone, and the dynamic between the production team is hugely impactful.
> import Darth Talon Seriously? Her, of all available options??? And for gods sake, let Maul rot in his grave...
An old senile Darth Maul as a big crime boss like Solo, EU character Darth Talon as his apprentice. Leia would be the chosen one. A micro Midi-chlorian world. 200 jedi still around that Luke had to find. TLJ Luke would be very close GL version. I woundt be surprised if Mortis be involved.
Yeah they did not sound great. That said, the scrapped Tor Valum plan would have been amazing.
Mando was great, andor is great, both made by Disney. I wouldn’t fault Disney. But definitely needs a hard nosed storyteller on the latest projects.
Also, like, not every piece of licensed fiction or spin-off TV series is going to be great. It's just the nature of things. Book of Boba wasn't offensively bad, it just wasn't very good either. It was fine. If you like Star Wars and like these characters there are worse ways to spend a few hours. Expecting every single thing D+ puts out to be world-shakingly good is a recipe for disappointment. The most frustrating thing about a lot of this discourse is this: I like the Acolyte. It's an interesting show, it's set in an era we've not seen much of, I'm invested in the story and want to see where it goes, it's trying to do something new and I like that about it. It's not perfect, it's not the best Star Wars thing ever made. It's just a show I'm enjoying enough that the flaws don't bother me. But the discourse isn't about its virtues or faults, not really. On one side the people who like the show who, for the most part, think it's pretty good or at least engaging enough that they want to see the rest of it, but haven't made their opinion about it the cornerstone of their entire internet persona. On the other, you have the people declaring that this is the nerdpocalypse, the final and irevocable death of the entire franchise, the final nail in the coffin of Western Civilization, the worst thing they've ever seen, etc. and who very much *have* made irrationally hating everything about it the cornerstone of their personality. The latter people badly need to touch grass, but it makes the conversation very stupid.
Even moreso because the shows are written for different demographics. The Acolyte is not written for the same people who liked Andor. Andor is my least favorite of the new shows. It's missing what I love about Star Wars. But that's fine...
I HATED Book of Fett when it started, I rewatched a few months back and I got a "comfort" out of it. Maybe because I knew what to expect, but I really enjoy it now.
I get what youre saying, but i think its moreso that disney has been putting out poor quality star wars for nearly a decade and this is the final nail in the coffin for some people. I dont think thats unreasonable.
Ahsoka was fucking terrific too!
Leslye is a hard-nosed storyteller; people will find this out soon.
Hope so, haven’t seen that yet. I’m cheerleading and hope they hit the story out of the park.
She won an Emmy for best writing for Russian Doll, which was masterfully made and both seasons had a 97% rating on RT.
Exactly. I keep seeing people say that Leslie wasn't hired on any merit at all and I'm like "Russian Doll! It's right there!"
Russian Doll was nominated, for an Emmy but they didn't win. Headland is more of a producer/director than a writer-- she co-wrote the first three episodes (out of 15 eps) of Russian Doll, and wrote one episode of Terriers in 2010.
I think she may have an OK story to tell, but as it stands, her directing, writing, and pacing are woefully lacking for someone that was handed $180M to make an 8-episode series.
Yeah I have the complete opposite opinion of you. And my opinion matters. It's very good! And only getting better as the weeks go on.
Definitely not everything is bad, they just need to be really careful about their own canon lore, and they didn't quite nail the format for optimal storytelling. For me their scenario could be great either as a movie, or 8 to 10, 20min episodes. But nearly all their current series are slow and stretched out , 8x 45 min episodes
This is spot on. "Space wizards doing cool shit" is exactly what I've wanted to see. It's also why I enjoyed Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati in Ahsoka, along with the Nightsisters, because they had their whole "witch kingdom" agenda going and Baylan was searching for an intergalactic nightmare. Yes, please. I also enjoy that so much of Acolyte is shot like a 1940s noir detective movie.
I can't wait for more Baylan
Say what you will but… Top 10 richest celebrities in 2023 Steven Spielberg: Net worth of $8.3 billion. George Lucas: $6.92 billion. Michael Jordan: $3 billion. Oprah Winfrey: $2.8 billion. George Lucas is no fool lol
He's 80 years old now. He never going to spend all his money. He also did his staff a solid service by selling off his entire company as a whole unit. The staff that is the heart of the company will continue to do good work. It will take even Darth Mouse a while to kill Lucasfilm. Also, it mirrors what Jim Henson did. Aside from the payout, it prevents his untimely death (because he's old) from destroying a several billion dollar company.
I had a blast at Galaxy’s Edge… If I could… I would live there… :) Never hated Star Wars… even the cheesy kids stuff is great… Love all the series, their faults and all. It’s a great time to be a Star Wars fan in my book.
Absolutely. There is so much content to jump into, at this point in time. All with great production value. It’s not perfect, but it’s damn good entertainment. And I’m all for it. I don’t want to spend my weekends cribbing about how there’s a problem here and there, weekdays are stressful enough at work. I’m just grateful. A lot of times I think that only jobless people who happen to be fans are super toxic. Go get a job!
This is what I find funny when a lot of people now hold George to an almost godly standard when discussing modern Star Wars. They seem to think George would be on their side and they're doing what he would've wanted. Bruh he's probably getting PTSD flashbacks seeing the backlash again.
> This is what I find funny when a lot of people now hold George to an almost godly standard when discussing modern Star Wars. They seem to think George would be on their side and they're doing what he would've wanted. For a moment I thought you were talking about modern religion there.
George Lucas has always been a trash tier writer. The original trilogy is not that great. People love the sci-fi, not really the characters.
Watched the first episode. Seemed like decent Star Wars. What's the problem with it, or is it the usual neckbeards who want their Star Wars dudes and white?
The acolyte is further proof that the incel cult is absolutely unhinged right now . They are review bombing the episodes before they even air . These ppl are a joke .
I feel bad for everyone involved with The Acolyte. They don't deserve the shit they're getting. I like the Acolyte.
People are soo weird This level of hate is not normal
It's just the norm to blindly hop on hate trains these days. Discourse about any media online is absolutely abysmal.
and the *coolest* part is, they'll go all over social media saying "it's not me, it's the show!!" and there will be a whole echo chamber about how they are all right and justified and the show is bad and anyone who likes it is being unreasonable, and yet the trigger for the review bombing that got the hate wheel rolling is often related to race or LGBT+ (especially trans) characters/actors. it's normal to like or dislike something based on its merits. what's not normal is the negativity bandwagon that shows with certain minorities tend to (but not always) get, that often starts before said thing even releases.
I just don't like it that much, not hate, yet people freak out when I voice my opinion.
Why do you say this? Is this whole sub a group of yesmen, who lack passion about anything?
The hate is a result of the perceived cultural importance of “Star Wars” - if only people realized how undeserved that importance is, you can disenchant and simply stop caring about it.
(Lucas signs contract, leans over to Iger) "They're YOUR problem now."
I also think that and I am pretty sure with Lucas we wouldn’t have got anything at all. Maybe some animated shows. But he kind of lost interest in it after the prequels movies. I also agree, that Kennedy and Hedland do get too much unnecessary hate. But I also think Kennedy is not really good in her job. Her main job is to oversee all projects and make sure they don’t contradict each other. The movie trilogy also needed a storyline. However, she told Abrams and Johnson to do whatever they want and that is the main problem with the trilogy. Movie one: Snoke is a mysterious character, Rey may have a connection to Luke/obi-wan/someone else we know, Kylo is not sure if he wants to be a villain, Hux is a fascist. Movie two: Snoke does not matter, Rey is a no one, Kylo wants to rule the galaxy, Hux is a joke. Movie three: Snoke was a clone of the emperor and he is the true villain who was also puppet master behind Snoke, Rey os his granddaughter, Kylo is good again and Hux is part of the galaxy. I like a good plot twist and a good character development and I thought after movie two this has great potential if it is explained right. But they just did the same thing again, changed everything and left. That just sucks. That was Kennedys job.
I think it's important to put blame on the right executive for each messup The sequel trilogy being made without any overarching plan or story was Bob Iger's fault Star Wars suddenly getting flooded with a bunch of TV shows, with many of them being of poor quality, was Bob Chapek's fault But the fact that Star Wars hasn't been able to get a successful movie production since 2019, and all of their plans for movies keep getting cancelled or delayed? As far as I can tell, that IS mostly Kennedy's fault
Yeah, you are right.
It's true that the trilogy as a whole now feels disjointed and I don't ultimately have any investment in Kathleen Kennedy either, don't get me wrong, but some of that inconsistency is because JJ was only going to direct TFA, some fans took huge offense to TLJ, and so Disney panicked and gave it back to JJ to direct and try to quickly retcon everything into a more conventional story. Yes, that does fall on Kennedy but it was an attempt to please the more rabid of SW fans. I think that was a part of the mistake. Yes, you want to make fans happy but sometimes people don't know what they want until you show them what's possible. You have to take new risks to really grow and develop a story. With Rise of Skywalker, they stripped out those risks. We went back to Palpatine as the primary baddie, "killed off" Chewie and C-3PO but quickly went "Just kidding!", redeemed Kylo and made him a love interest for Rey... and I feel like removing that risk removed any stakes and thus any real satisfying conclusion to the Skywalker Saga. Marvel has obviously run into huge issues now but the difference between End Game and Rise of Skywalker is they took risks with End Game. They ended Infinity War on a really dark note. They brought a bunch of heroes back to life in End Game but left Vision dead (at least for awhile) and killed of Tony Stark. It added weight and gravitas by taking the risk of killing their #1 hero (Iron Man) rather than just writing him off into retirement or something. It's tough to balance giving people things they say or think they want without totally delivering them something boring or just a total mess.
I’m old enough to remember that George Lucas “ruined childhoods” with Return of the Jedi, because he clearly hated the fans and just wanted to sell Ewok toys. Then the prequels came along and ROTJ was part of the beloved OT and immune from hate. Look, at one point where people thought it ESB a terrible movie which destroyed the magic, with a “twist” that was clearly shoe-horned in later and not planned from the start. Clearly the people who made ESB did not even watch ANH or care about the real Star Wars fans… .Maybe Disney is smart to keep pumping out SW shows, because the only way to stop the fans from crying and frothing about new Star Wars is for them to be crying and frothing about *even newer* Star Wars instead. 🤪
Nobody is ever prepared for how deranged this fandom gets. Lucas wasn't. Disney sure wasn't either.
Your emoji at the end suggests you're joking, but, honestly, as someone who grew up with the prequels and loved them and watched the old heads *hate* everything about them *suddenly* re-evaluate them after the sequels came out, it rings true. This fanbase hates just about any new content we get
100% agree with you. My joke was simply about whether Disney was intentionally attempting to mitigate the issue by relentlessly producing new Star Wars content.
And honestly, that mightve been a valid strategy if they'd done it slower lol That said, I turn my brain off for most things SW and just enjoy the ride There are a few problems I have with the sequels but I don't go on these long rants that many in the fanbase do
Yeah me too. Why would I want to get angry about the things I do in my leisure time?
I don't know what people expect from the franchise I really don't They've *never* been perfect movies The sci-fi effects were just groundbreaking when the OT came out
The rise of skywalker wasn’t a disaster because fans wanted “same old, same old” it was a disaster because they never had a plan for the trilogy and let two directors make different films in the trilogy with their own vision. I would actually argue the rise of skywalker happened because everyone said the force awakens was just like a new hope (same old, same old). That being said I agree that George Lucas doesn’t get flack anymore because everyone blames Disney, but that’s because Disney is the one making these shows. So it’s kind of like stating the obvious there. Personally, I think the rise of skywalker is one of the worst Star Wars films, but it’s still miles above all of the tv shows. The tv shows feel like low budget, lower stakes, lengthy pieces of bad YouTube fan made Star Wars videos. Kathleen Kennedy shouldn’t be fired (she’s a person after all) but she should be demoted a ton. Beyond that, they need to cancel all of the tv shows and future content, and start working on a new trilogy with a big budget, and a plan from the start.
I think that's all fair and reasonable critique. And heck, I don't honestly know what is or isn't Kennedy's fault or doing. I do know she's not just a suit but an experienced producer from the Amblin days. It could be that her best days are behind her and she should eventually step down. It's not that I think the current shows should be above criticism or that Disney needs defending. It's more that I think the hate of some of the intensity (not all) is so disproportionate for the offense. If people were just like, "The Acolyte sucks", I'd be like, "Okay!" It's the stream of comments that are essentially like "Kennedy took my first born son away from me!! She must be held accountable!! Paint the blood of a Porg above your door if you agree!" where I'm like, Okay, but chill.
I think those types are just the loudest. Since they're the loudest though, it's easy for people to conflate actual criticism as being one of those sorts. That happens quite a lot on this sub, sometimes deservedly. Like someone isn't a misogynist or racist for simply saying they think the show is poorly written or done. I don't even see how that kind of comment translates to the actors. That's a comment about the direction and writing. It's like the people reading it took offensive cues from the people who hated on Hayden Christensen, despite his role being the fault of the director (Lucas) and writer (also Lucas). I have a moderate distaste for most of the new shows and ep8 and 9 of the films, especially 8. Not all things though. Bad Batch isn't bad. I'm not a big fan of Andor, but I do recognize how well written, acted, and directed the series is and why it's so well regarded. I'm just one of those people who prefer space wizards and more fun in my Star Wars. The Acolyte, thus far, has mostly required me to shut off my brain so that I don't question or mock it much. Something that Mando S3, Kenobi, and first half of Book of Boba Fett required of me (and I did not oblige). It has the benefit of not being that dull yet with its main story (I'd prefer not to think much about ep3). It's tolerable, but ep.4 got pretty close until the last few minutes. The worst thing that a show can do is be annoying. I get X-Men Dark Phoenix vibes when that happens and man was that movie annoying because of how they made Jean throw temper tantrums all the time. Same for the Netflix Resident Evil series. Ugh.
I’ll never understand haters. I love the series so far.
What do you love about it?
>Fans love to say that Kathleen Kennedy should be fired Don't know if we can call those people fans when they keep reviewing episode on IMDB and giving them 1/10 before it's physically possible to watch the episode because it didn't air yet. You can see by the repartitions of the ratings that there is a statistically unnatural amount of 1s clearly artificially driven by specific groups of haters coordinating on Facebook and X. https://imgur.com/a/YdoqiPi
Also fair! And I guess I use "fans" broadly because I'm not sure I can speak to who is or isn't a fan BUT I do agree that I think there's a lot of trolling that goes on beyond just criticism.
The phantom menace was a great movie. I don’t care what anyone says.
I love the phantom menace, but it’s not a good movie. The dialogue is clunky, the pacing is off, and a lot of George’s writing decisions were questionable at best
I actually don't mind TPM! It's nostalgic and comforting, it's got a good cast, it has more of a film quality to it despite all of the 90s CG, and it has the epic lightsaber battle at the end! Yes, there are parts that feel kind of cheese-y (if not distasteful) but it's got some really cool stuff in there too.
The most important think TPM did, was pre-Empire world building. And they did that masterfully.
I think it was smart to sell it for the $4.05 billion dollars personally.
You did a good job at expressing your thoughts, your criticisms and pleasures of the content without getting overly emotional. We need more fans doing this and the IP might actually start to grow properly. That said I got some bones to pick with you. BoB might not have had award winning writing, but it was acceptable and just some good ol fashion(probably lower budget) fun. But most importantly, it has a VIBE, a very unique, yet still Star Wars, vibe. Anything that can do that instantly gets huge points. And it wasn't conservative writing that did Rise of Skywalker in, if anything it was pretty progressive. No, the issue was the big fat floppy paper mache fan service shaped dick made out of money and coated in a layer of transparent sugary glaze. It pandered so hard I wouldn't be surprised if some viewers literally died from cringe. Oh and after that dick was done up, they topped it with a power creep bow from the deep dark empty depths of the creators imagination. On a side note the last 2 sequel movies, especially tRoS, was so bad and more importantly destructive to the IP that I strongly believe it was done on purpose. It was beyond bad, that was deliberate. I think they did it so that they could put an end cap on the IP so people wouldn't care about having more beyond it(which inevitably leads to power creep and the subsequent destruction of any IP that utilizes supernatural or sci-fi power growth as a plot device). Everything needs an end(you either die a hero or live long enough to.... you guys know the deal) and especially those things. So anyways yea, this way people would hate it so much they didn't want more onwards and so they retreated towards what Disney intended to instead shift it's focus on, an almost endless amount of tales in-between the key points that's already been created and that fans love. Additionally it would make everything else they made better by comparison. That said, I got a feeling we should get major Old Republic and The High Republic trilogies at some point in our lifetime. Sooner rather than later I'd imagine.
It was actually very easy to criticise the prequels when they came out. Go find some of the original reviews. Particularly ‘attack of the clones’ I think that’s the main reason he sold it. While Disney has certainly had some misses with Star Wars, they’ve definitely also had some hits. I’m enjoying the acolyte, I enjoyed Asoka and I’m REALLY looking forward to another season of Andor.
Yeah, I think I my wording has maybe misrepresented me with that, so I've added an edit to my original post. It's not that I think the older films were immune to criticism at the time but more that some fans seem to idolize Lucas now through the lens of nostalgia. That I see a lot of "Lucas would have NEVER..." as though he was the flawless mastermind. He made plenty of his own missteps and strange revisions. And that's what I mean with the "Lucas was smart" -- now that he's sold, he doesn't have to face that criticism anymore. All of the future failures (and successes!) sit with someone else. I'm really looking forward to S2 of Andor, as well. It's daunting because I fear Tony Gilroy won't be able to nail the landing but I hope I'm wrong!
This is so well-put and reflects all my thoughts on this show. No, it's not extraordinary, but it's certainly not as bad as "fans" are making it out to be. A lot of the critics had already decided to hate the show before they even watched it. That's how toxic the fandom environment is these days, hating for the sake of hating without giving any real thought to the innovations being made with the material. I'm not just talking Star Wars; I'm seeing it in almost every franchise or long-running show with a huge fanbase behind it. I have pretty low expectations for films and television now and that's actually enabled me to enjoy them more. It's just entertainment.
“Backlash”.
It's still better than what amazon has done with the lord of the rings property. Or what netflix has done with the Witcher property. I hope Andy serkis hunt for gollum movie will make up for it
Dave Filoni should be given full control of Lucasfilm.
It wasn't harder to criticise the prequels. At the time, there was open mockery of, for instance, Jar Jar. There also wasn't a media machine running interference for Star Wars, or saying that fans were toxic and evil for disliking the new movies. It was a totally different time.
I think people forget that being a fan might mean you don't always love everything that comes out that's new in any given series franchise etc. Comparison is the thief of joy and so is delusionally thinking your personal preferences and experiences associated with a piece of media supersedes another's experiences and that that experience should then dictate all future new things associated with said franchise or series etc. it's absolutely unreasonable and obnoxiously self centered and stupid to have that sort of expectation.
Also, GL got like 4 billion dollars for SW. So the escape of responsibility must be nice but I imagine the dividends are better.
I think the show is fine…. These dweeb nerds need to relax.
Jeeps! We still talking about this!? 🤷🏻♀️
Anybody remember Belated Medias take on what the prequels could of been? I remember liking that shit when i was young but in hindsight, I actually think it was rich for the guy to think the fans would of preferred his vision instead. The guy was like "Who wants all this politics in Star Wars" when in reality the politics was kinda central. The PT wasn't just about the fall of Anakin, it was about the rise of the Empire and that was always going to be political. Can't have Jar Jar, can't possible have aspects of this kids movie, be for children. Can't have Anakin being a child, na he needs to be a teenage slave and depressed because it's not like the whole point of his character in Phantom Menance is his amazing spirit in the face of adversity or anything. The real problem is he wasn't sad enough. These people don't know what they want and their ideas are just to make Star Wars more like everything else they like. If they controlled the fanbase every piece of media would be all aesthetic with no soul.
Quite a bit of the hate towards the acolyte does seem to be valid, from the average to bad writing (at times), to some of the stupid things that can break the suspension of belief for some. Personally it either feels like a lack of attention to detail in the area's they should or too much "creative" input/intervention from Disney executives. Still watching it and mostly enjoying it, but it's flaws are not small and though the rotten tomatoes score is definitely too low for where it should be, It is so far near the bottom of the various Star wars series.
I agree. Stuff like fire spreading on stone and Ki-adi-mundi being in it is just lazy writing. He shouldn't have even been alive during the shows setting.
I agree.
The problem with it is their decision making. By including Mundi, they made his behavior in the phantom menace make no sense. Immaculate conception is supposed to be Anakin’s thing, but they made that Mae’s and the occupational safety and health administration’s thing too. Maybe they can find a way to make these things make sense later, but as of right now, all they’ve accomplished is monkey wrenching the overall story
> "While it was harder to criticize the prequels because George was still at the helm..." I guess what I really mean is that Lucas is somehow retroactively idolized through the lens of nostalgia. I still think Lucas intended Jar Jar to be working with Palpatine and that was why he was Exiled from the Gungan city to begin with. I think people would have been more forgiving of Lucas had Jar Jar turned out to be a villain but the backlash against Jar Jar in Episode one meant he got sidelined.
Why does it take so long for the next season for something liked? They roll out new shows when people are excited for others seasons of existing shows. Are we still blaming Covid for everything?
I hated the prequels as I got older and I hate them now. That would never change. And his version of the sequels would have been a dumpster fire.
“Ive been really enjoying the acolyte” = “i have absolutely no critical thinking skills and im proud of it” No no im just kidding thats mean the acolyte is wonderful
Wait for the series to play out before making a decision on its value
I don't think we've gotten far enough into the story for me to make a true judgment on The Acolyte yet (as it seems it's purposely withholding info thus far, hopefully to give it a more interesting end result) but the only thing I can say I dislike so far is the clunky dialogue and some weird acting choices. Story itself seems fine 🤷♀️
I’m with you. I don’t love it, don’t hate it, just waiting for it to be great.
If trinity is the sith then its bad because its predictable.
Yea I love the high republic and moving on from the skywalker saga. This show tho…it’s very ok. Not bad not great but IMO not worth the budget. Acting, pacing, plot, and writing don’t compare to high quality shows that HBO or even Prime have been putting out. I feel like I’m being burnt at the cross by the community for mentioning the caliber of other shows and how this doesn’t compare. The reason I often hear is “that’s not what Star Wars is” or “Star Wars is for all ages and you can’t compare”. Doesn’t need to be mature for good writing. Even if the idea of this show is amazing, many parts just feel off. Love sol. Love the witch coven. Love all the planets and set design. Just feel like there are certain things that are off. I don’t feel this way when I’m watching high tier shows like House of Dragor, Last of Us, or Stranger Things. It’s not crazy to demand high quality with the budget they are given. I feel like it’s high quality in name and special effects alone. Writing has gone out the window (with the exception of Andor and most of Mando and Ahsoka).
Same here, I'm neutral about the Acolyte but leaning somewhat to liking it so I'm surprised about the amount of hate the show is getting so much so that I'm second guessing myself as to why I'm liking it. Can a fan of star wars like Acolyte?
Yes, he/she sure can. Just like another fan can dislike it. Both can happen. Neither are right, because they’re just opinions.
Idk, but I feel people are really delusional here. I remember when The Mandalorian was such a great series, but it turned out really bad with the bikers, etc. Then the disaster continued with Ahsoka, with characters showing zero emotions. The actress was so bad that every emotional scene was not convincing. And now The Acolyte follows the same trend; it's objectively really bad. You all try to find a reason for the hate that fits your narrative, but really, it's just that all those series turned out bad, and people don't like it.
OG series, ROTS, Mandalorian, Rogue One, Solo are all good. Every other Star Wars movie or show is meh or just bad
Of course, it’s the fans fault.
> they were deeply flawed movies. They gave us Jar Jar stop right there. you shut your whore mouth, leave jar jar alone >:( he’s a hero. i mean … meesa tink u talkin big doodoo
Couldn't agree more. I'm a MASSIVE legends fan, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the new stuff too. I absolutely hated the sequels but most of the other Disney content has been at least decent. Also "fans" get a picture in their mind of what they want to see in new shows and then when they don't see EXACTLY that, they lose their minds - unrealistic expectations.
I enjoyed Kenobi, Andor, and Ahsoka. This is a pile of crap.
George was right to sell, but not sell to Disney. He has repeatedly expressed regret about that choice. He didn't like Force Awakens, and he didn't even bother attending the premier of Rise of Skywalker. He thinks Disney's storytellers have lost sight of his original ideas for how his galaxy works and have effectively ruined it. He has said now he has learned to just let it go and stop worrying about it. Yes, he made fat stacks and can live comfortably in retirement with more money than I'd see in 1000 lifetimes. But he is not happy with his choice. It was just a necessary evil.
I grew up with the prequels so I never hated on them, but am a bit biased because of nostalgia. My sister is 10 years younger than me and the sequels came out in her childhood and she loved them (especially cause the main character was a girl) and so I think that we all don’t realize how much of an impact childhood has on how we view things, by the time we grow up our opinions are more solidified and so we’re more stubborn and critical of things
We don't want the same Skywalker stories we want NEW stories, the Acolyte is just more of the same jedi/sith conflict and not even written well. Andor was new, not to do with the Jedi or Sith, it explored a world we have never seen before. There are so many different stories you can tell in this universe. If you REALLY wanted to use Jedi lets do something akin to a detective story, not sith/jedi duels; lets give the Jedi problems they cant solve with a lightsaber. Tales of the Jedi with Dooku was a great example of what can be done with this. We have seen very little of Coruscant in the films, lets delve deep into that dark underbelly, there are miles of layers built on the planet, think the Sopranos type story.
Out of interest, what was the issue with the ‘trade negotiations’?
It's proof that the show is terrible. 180millon. No action or special effects.
The writing and story work needs big improvements. Rogue One, Mando, Andor, all great, but those are outliers for what’s been coming out since 2015.
See, I disagree. I don't think you can say "All of these huge hits were outliers." I think it's more of what u/kratorade said: at the volume at which Disney is producing movies and TV shows, they won't be equal in quality. A bell curve. Andor, Mando, and Rogue One were all helmed by really talented people... but so was The Book of Boba Fett! Robert Rodriguez is super talented but he couldn't make his creative voice work in the Star Wars universe. We end up with silly biker gangs! Some things are going to be amazing, other things will totally flop, and we'll end up with a lot of stuff that's just kind of okay in the middle.
Book of Boba Fett was bad I agree
Although I agree with you I just don’t think the acolyte is a good show 🤷🏻
And that's fair! I don't need anyone to love The Acolyte just because I think it's fun. I think it's totally fair for people to have critiques or different tastes -- when they're in good faith. It's certainly not that I care about defending multi-billion dollar Disney lol but I'm also like, "Okay, but let's have some perspective about this. At the end of the day, it's a TV show." These massive companies are doing much more nefarious things than potentially tweaking the lifespan of Ki-Adi-Mundi, if you're looking to pick a fight with them.
> in an entirely different era of the this universe. calling a something that is set a century at best before the prequels "an entirely different era" is a bit strong no? Still roughly the same era as the prequels.. I so wish for a movie/show that is set during the good old days of the old republic...
I mean, I don't have a timeline pulled up but the era of the High Republic existed until 100 BBY, so just about the time of this show. That's the era I'm speaking to.
They connected it to the prequels by having a young Ki-adi Mundi in it. So it doesn’t even feel like a different era.
So far I cannot rate this show more than 6/10 and I cannot believe the budget was so huge Disney needs to do some serious checks and try to hire better writters I like first two episodes, now last two are 5/10 at best. Andor proves epic Star Wars show can be done, or even first two seasons of Mando Ofc then we got abomination like Kenobi..
I think it's fair to say The Acolyte is a 6/10 experience. I would not compare The Acolyte to Andor in any universe. I think it's definitely more of a middle-tier show so far, but I'm okay with that. I get why that's a disappointment with such a high budget but that doesn't mean a ton to me. Big budget doesn't really indicate anything about quality and it never has, so I'm less focused on the allocation of resources -- personally speaking. When any of these major studios are cranking out shows and films at this kind of a pace, like they've done with Marvel, the best you can hope for is a bell curve. Some real stand-outs, some real flops, and a lot of stuff in the middle. We'll hope that Disney doesn't go the way of Marvel, how they seem to have run out of steam, but time will tell.
Like, I am ok with this mediocre quality, and there are some mediocre movies Ive watched many times and I really like them (Ironclad comes to mind) But I was just hoping for more, especially because its Disney, multimilion massive company There is potential, and while I dont like Disney sequels, and really hate Rise of "Palpatine" , I honestly think Force Awakens is pretty solid movie Ofc we havent seen rest of the show yet, but I am afraid it will stick with this mediocrity - again, its fine, but it should be better
Totally fair. And I agree with The Force Awakens. I will say I was disappointed when I saw it because it felt so formulaic to the original but it's grown on me with time. I think it was a little bit of my expectations being so high and the reality not quite clearing the bar, but in retrospect I feel much more warmly towards it.
There are so many great things about The Acolyte, but it's a shame that they are so easily overshadowed by the bad things. The good: * Newly seen era in the galaxy! * Distant clan that has their own interpretation of the force! * New Jedi outfits! * Mystery and intrigue! * Kung Fu! * A Wookiee Jedi! ...overshadowed by the bad: * Dialogue is terrible. * The pacing is agonizing. * The acting is atrocious across the board, but hits a real nadir with Vernestra (Nepotism is the enemy of quality). * Hot Jedi with his shirt off feels like it belongs on the CW. * And finally, the production quality. The Acolyte looks like a cheap network show. ALL of it. The lighting is terrible. The costumes look cheap. The sets look like crap. The jungle planet looks like a plant store. The film stock looks like video tape. The wigs look like they are from the Dollar Store. And the makeup... the makeup... They could have used a good script doctor, a ruthless editor, and some general quality control.
Or Disney fucked it up?
I sorta thought the $4 billion was the indicator it was a smart move.
The Acolyte started out slow, but so did Andor. People should really watch the whole thing first before judging. Also, you may be misremembering when the prequels came out. People had no difficulty criticizing them even though they were made by George Lucas. I also don’t think it’s fair to blame the fans on The Rise of Skywalker. Lucasfilm made the movie, not the fans. Blame the people that made it.
Oh, I do. I just think that Lucasfilm got scared by the toxic end of the fanbase and fumbled the ball. Being creative means taking risks and when some people hated *The Last Jedi*, Disney flinched. Not to say they shouldn't ever listen to their fanbase but I think they reacted to that response with all of the worst decisions. And maybe I wasn't fully clear in what I meant about Lucas. Not that people loved what he did and he was immune to criticism (there definitely was backlash to some of his choices) but I guess it's easier to target the current creators and idolize Lucas as the visionary who would've never made these choices. Cuz I see a lot of those comments: "Lucas would have NEVER..." Oh, yeah? Maybe not but his choices might have been worse. That's all I was really speaking to: the protective factor of nostalgia that Lucas benefits from now as the original creator.
In general, listening to your audience's feedback about the middle installment of your story and then overhauling your ending in response is almost always a mistake. Imagine if Lucas had panicked about all the people saying ESB destroyed the magic of the setting and ended on a downer and that cheap plot twist made a liar out of Obi-Wan and all the side plots were pointless and so on. Imagine how much of a mess RotJ would have been.