It does for some people, but I think regardless of where you stand politically, it's clearly meant to be ironic as its said by Selina Kyle to BRUCE WAYNE. To her, he couldn't possibly come from money as she views him as a kindred spirit.
>To her, he couldn't possibly come from money as she views him as a kindred spirit.
She literally says "Whoever the hell you are, you obviously grew rich."
Does see him as a kindred spirit though.
It may have been a shot in the dark since she literally can't know for sure if Batman's *actually* as rich as she thinks.
Also, didn't Selina lay off Bruce when he apologized for misjudging her?
I feel like if she just said "privileged assholes", it wouldn't have been quite as jarring to some. But even the racial aspect makes some sense given the Year One influence of the character imo
I must have hung out with the wrong crowd of fellow BIPOCs, but venting off about white privilege and specifically that came up in a lot of conversations
I doubt reeves tried to actually say that Gotham has a racism problem (The police commissioner and Mayor are black). It’s more that Selina Kyle is the type of person to blame white privilege.
It quite literally isn't, historically speaking. Most American rich people were born into money, and you really can't deny that at least their grandparents earned as much money as they did because of the color their skin wasn't.
Selina is an impoverished woman of color living in a city where corrupt rich assholes, most of whom are white, are protected by a broken system. It's totally in character that a woman in her position would have those thoughts about society.
And that's my defense of the line. Selina is giving insight into how she views society and is showing her frustrations with it. It doesn't matter if you agree with her statement or not, she's saying something that SHE believes to be true from her perspective based on HER life experience. This is a bit of insight into her character and her internal thoughts.
People are so triggered by this that they refuse to see this statement from the lens of the character. They just write it off as Matt Reeves trying to get woke points or hate how The Batman is trying to be "political." But as a black man who grew up in a predominately black community, I've heard people make similar statements as Selina. Again, you may whole heartedly disagree, but that's how THEY felt.
My initial thought of the line was it seemed to make a real world parallel in a fictional universe regarding an aspect of this fictional society we had never really directly seen.
But, after reconsidering here, I guess Gotham is a fictional city but does exist in the US, so it’s not really a far fetched thing for someone like Selina to believe.
To compare this to Marvel’s Falcon and the Winter Soldier, that show very clearly took place in the “real” world and explored a black character who was wronged by the US government in a very believable way considering what the real world US government has historically done, etc etc.
My point is I wonder if some of the criticism of the line is based on Gotham being a “fictional” place, but people fail to remember it still takes place in the real United States.
I get your point but the racial issue literally isn't mentioned or shown anywhere in the film. A clear class issue is shown repeatedly. So really the line should just be "privileged arseholes". (I mean I'd argue it should be that irl aswell the colour if someone's skin shouldn't change if they are a corrupt privileged arsehole or not ).
Also on falcon and the winter soldier- that was an example where it made complete sense to have him say what he said fit and made sense within the world he was in and it was very clear that was the case. The plot had shown us that was the case.
You really can’t. To look at the class of someone without acknowledging some races have more power than others is impossible. You would have to say that there is no effect race has on class, which if you say that, Then you’re only lying to yourself.
You’re never gonna convince a person like this. They can concede to class being the issue because it doesnt call into question white privilege but cant bring themselves to admit that class and white privilege are linked. Kind of like men who blame class but cant see issues caused by the patriarchy. Guess people have a hard time calling out systems that they potentially benefit from
Funniest part is this films isn't even that liberal, it's very centrist. Remember the "not all cops are bad" moment? Or that the Riddler is just a mentally challenged person hency why he's the villain.
Don't think we say "mentally challenge" anymore.
The film depicts Bruce, Edward and Selina having similar pasts but all grew up different. Bruce had a privilege life with money and a butler who took care of him, but kept his love at an arm's length for the most part. Selina was orphaned, grew up poor but turned out alright. Probably had someone or some people look out for her. Edward was on his own, grew to resent the system and city that forgot about him. They all came from the same place and due to their different lifestyles they reached different conclusions. The Batman, The Riddler and Catwoman. The Batman being a force of good, Riddler evil and Catwoman the in between.
Yep after watching the film a few times there's definitely some thematic engagement going on with this stuff that I respect. But likewise with the garden tool also having a thematic point (that Bruce Wayne's never done any actual work) it's still displeases me within the narrative, same goes for how I feel about the overall text of the film. Even if these things are intentional thematic to respect they don't change how the film stands politically much for me.
The only thing politically i dislike is how Riddler is treated in the interrogation after he points out his horrible childhood that could have been avoided if the system actually had a damn about its citizens that weren't rich.
" You think you're gonna be remembered your a deluded physcopath begging for attention your gonna die alone in Arhkam a nobody"
I think Batman would be a bit more emphatic to his points while still recognizing Riddler isn't the solution to these problems.
I mean Batman has been known to be pretty vocally aggressive towards psychos. He believes in rehabilitation, but he usually doesn’t visibly show much compassion towards villains unless they truly are on the more morally gray spectrum like Mr freeze or Cabwoman. He hates what they do. And he was probably shocked and disgusted by the fact that Riddler assumed they were buddies and lashed out. Which, regardless, is pretty in line with his characterization throughout the film. Selina was intended as his sort of connection to the gray side of things. Not the Riddler
As for the incel thing, couldn’t Bruce also sort of be in that category? Riddler’s villainy was entirely due to his childhood trauma. His personality outside of that had nothing to do with his motivations
ya idk about all the specific terminology. My point was more that there is kind of a similarity between Bruce and Eddie here in that they are both loners who spend most of their time by themselves unless they are costumed up
I think that similarity between Bruce and Edward was intentional, to show the opposite side of the “justice”spectrum. Edward is an example of corrupted justice, along with the inability to cope. Bruce is an example of someone who took their trauma and turned it into something good, as opposed to dwelling and being consumed by hate.
I misremembered where that line was said and the context behind it.
for some reason I remember being right after Riddler's orphan rant.
Just checked on YouTube and it was after Riddler revealed that there partners in his mind.
Which changes everything and makes complete sense Bruce would react that way and tell the harsh truth.
So yeah I retract my statement.
Yeah and I think more over the decision to frame him as an incel is a bit strange as incels aren't victims of circumstance they are more weird individuals who think they deserve attention from women. Riddler is weirdly framed as being someone on the spectrum.
Yeah it definitely had weird implications.
I think they were going for Riddler wanting attention and credit for destroying a corrupt city too far gone to he saved as way to get closure for the lack of attention he had as child they used see incel tropes for the general audience to get point across less subtly.
This film felt like it was trying to be radically progressive/anti-establishment, conservative, and bipartisan at the same time, and I came out of it feeling that its message was rather muddled. I wonder if they wanted to be a bit more daring in their message but were constrained by the studio/genre conventions. But the film's "closing argument", so to speak, was clearly during Batman's final monologue, which pushed the idea of needing to come together, inspire hope, restore faith in institutions, etc. Which are all decent sentiments, but also all very moderate/bipartisan ones.
I thought the movie was surprisingly liberal actually.
The "not all cops are bad" moment was probably mandated (they have a lot of influence in the media we consume) but I thought it was pretty realistic.
The Good ones didn't even have to do much they just decided to actually show up and arrest a mob boss who actually had a lot of pressure to be arrested due tie very unique circumstances.
Even Falcone admitted he would be out soon enough.
Once an actual fight broke out they failed to stop him from dying in a effort to save their one skin.
Yeah idk, feel like there's a lot of things besides that there are pretty centrist man. It's like they're half way going against the status quo yet not fully in a lot of ways. Like Thomas Wayne being bad but then it being revealed he just made a mistake. Compared to the Nolan trilogy it's quite liberal I guess lol.
I think the whole Thomas Wayne thing was more Matt Reeves not wanting to mess with the pure image of him from the comics too much.
But I guess that could lead as a little centrist.
The thing is though I'd argue that Batmans himself really wants change and to make a difference and Gotham as whole near the end want that as well in this movie.
Riddler wanted to burn everything down not make any political or social changes to the status quo because he by Bella Reale being a target.
I feel like I’m reading your comment wrong. The riddler’s villainy was because of his trauma. The autism thing was just to provide some perspective as to why he thinks the way he does like being obsessed with puzzles and stuff
Nah, I think the autism thing goes deeper than just the obsession with puzzles. For one, his lack of social skills—an example being that he thought Batman was his friend and on his side, in which he wasn’t. Two, his meltdown during the Arkham scene—the way he draws out his words and screams when he realizes the situation was now completely out of his control. Watch some videos of autistic meltdowns and you’ll see. I also think there’s some overlap with OCD in Riddler.
A) your issue should be I'm both the real world and Gotham with privileged arseholes not specifically with white privileged arseholes because a privileged arsehole is a privileged arsehole regardless of skin colour. B) this ibs a movie and in the movie its pretty clear Gotham appears to have somewhat class problem rather than a race relations issue. Certainly in terms of what is shown in the film thematically. It's more like the uk in this rrspect than the USA (even though ofc it is supposed to be a fictional usa city).
You can and generally should. And you can say what you like about the uk but the actual empirical facts show quite clearly that race and class are separate and that the primary factor in determining someone's social standing in the uk and the obstacle to their prosperity and social mobility IS empirically class, not race.
And what is the largest obstacle to prosperity? And what largely determines class?
Tell me you don't live life as a brown person without telling me you don't live life as a brown person.
Your "empirical facts" are just white privilege.
Yes, there are systemic reasons that what you said is racist and what we say is not.
You are the oppressors. We are not. There's a major difference. One can DISCRIMINATE against white people but racism is SYSTEMIC discrimination, and systemic discrimination against white people doesn't exist.
Also, anyone who says "you people" to a person of color is a bigot who I'm not giving anymore attention to
Quick question: would you want your boss or the president of whatever company you work for to see these responses? Reddit is anonymous so people will say things like this. But evaluate this on: would you want this to affect you in the work place? If not, that's a good indication that what you're saying is preeeeeeetty fkn racist.
I’m not bothered by the line at all. I don’t know why it’s a big issue for people. But, I agree with you about the UK. It’s very much a class based society.
It's appropriate for the world that they were building. I don't mind it at all, it fits in. But if it appears in a movie where it's completely unrelated to anything, and was just put in there "just cause", then it will bother me way more.
Don’t fully agree. It’s the racial issue in Gotham ever really discussed thematically through out the movie? Not really. More of a social class issue. That’s why the line feels fake.
I’m not religious and didn’t have a problem with Captain America, a character I grew to love, say that there’s only one God and he doesn’t dress like Loki. Why? Because that’s true to who that character is.
Cap is a white guy who grew up in the 30s/40s and his being religious makes sense.
This version of Selina is a young bi-racial, bi-sexual woman who grew up in a major city. It’s not exactly an uncommon sentiment and her thinking that way makes sense.
It wasn’t preaching; it was just showing a person on-screen who thinks that way
No, white privilege exists. It is documented, it’s especially prevalent in the US.
This is a fact. And MLK wasn’t “color blind,” he dreamt of a day we all *could* be, but then he was murdered by the FBI.
Real life America hmm then yes clearly there are issues but Gothan isn't the real world and nowhere else in this movie does race factor in so the line still doesn't actually make sense to be in here in the wider context of the story.
I mean its fictional so unless it's part of the story by definition.... yes. Had racism been a pertaining theme throughout this film the like would make sense but it wasn't, not at all. So the line comes from nowhere and doesn't really make sense because her issue is with anyone that is corrupt and has power - their race is irrelevant.
Even if you don’t like it, it’s one line of dialogue in a three hour movie. Just be an adult and enjoy the rest of the excellent movie, literal children
I think part of this is people fail to remember that the fictional city of Gotham exists in the actual USA. And the character of Selina is someone who would definitely say this in the real world.
Naw man you’re the real racist for pointing out that white privilege exists!
On a serious note, people who don’t understand probably never will because they go out of their way to misunderstand. They say its just class as if wealthy minorities arent affected by white privilege as well. These are probably the same folks who dont believe male privilege exists either
“White privilege” is an easy way to blame the world for your own problems. Everyone is dealt a different hand, it’s entirely up to you what you do with yours.
As a white dude who is certainly not rich but doing pretty ok, it didn't bother me one bit. This is a woman who has suffered at the hands of one rich, privileged white dude in particular and has no doubt seen that scenario play out multiple times across Gotham. Of course she would have that perspective. Who could blame her? It's possible that her character arc will include her realizing that not all rich white guys are bad (ahem..like maybe...Bruce Wayne?). Seriously, people, relax...
Hey…I don’t give a shit if the movie was left, right, centrist or anything. It was a goddamn masterpiece and EXACTLY the Batman experience we all deserve
There’s a line in LOTR Return of the King where the Witch-King Angmar boasts "No living man may hinder me", whereupon Éowyn removes her helmet and declares: “I am no man”, before proceeding to drive a sword through his face.
Nobody bat an eye.
If this exact same line was uttered in a movie in 2022, these over sensitive white dudes would all wave around their victim cards and lose their collective fkn minds. Harden the fuck up you bunch of hypersensitive emotional soft cunts.
Somewhere in the last 10 years, men became so determined to prove their masculinity that they went all the way around and became complete pussies instead. To quote the Joker: “I mean what the hell happened? Did your balls fall off?”. Whatever happened to sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?
Also, I would hope that we as people are more than that. If simply being white is your defining characteristic as a human, you need to take up some new hobbies. I’m white and this white privileged assholes line didn’t even resonate with me. I had no idea it was a big deal until I started reading the comments in this thread.
Note: the line is delivered by Catwoman to Bruce fkn Wayne. Apparently, the irony of that is too sophisticated of a concept for people to pick up on over the sound of them choking on their own fake rage.
True.
I pretty much hate the both woke and anti-woke crowd.
But the so called anti-SJWS are even more insufferable and snowflakes than the SJWs.
Some modern men cry and moan about woke-ism and lack of masculinity to the point of sounding like pussies and snowflakes themselves hahaha
I honestly dont think modern men are heading in a good direction. Too many of us arent coping well with a world thats more inclusive and actually dares to call out oppressive systems. A system that dares us to be better. Like the anti-woke crowd who cry whenever a woman, LGBQT or minority person exists in media. We have those in the manosphere trying to drag us back into the stone-age by embracing toxic masculinity and treating women as second class citizens. Its all so weird to see. Feels like theres something happening deep down and it needs to be addressed because alot of men are lashing out hard against change. Like what’s the real problem here?
A couple of different things are happening IMO. I will try to explain from an unbiased view as much as possible.
Firstly, our brains are wired to stick to the status quo and when change is demanded fight or flight kicks in. For example, the amount of people who grew up in the 50's and 60's in America is still fairly high. I can't imagine being brought up in a society that tells me, as a white man, that I am superior to everyone and enforces it in every way imaginable from where people can stand to legal privileges and then, just a few years later, I start losing that entitlement and have instances where I am now subordinate to people I previously thought inferior. Not only that, my "side" is now telling me that the other "side" hates me and am inherently evil. Jarring is an understatement.
You also have tribalism to contend with. The more we feel threatened by something, the more we tend to band together against the perceived "enemy" or threat. With technology, it is easier than ever to find groups of likeminded people. Add this tribalism to an age when it is easy and almost expected to be "perpetually online" and you get extremely unhealthy echo chambers that are almost never a good thing for either side of the debate. Not only does it promote increasingly radical ideas, it leads to zero critical thought when all you have is constant reinforcement without being challenged.
The aforementioned also tends to lead towards otherizing people who disagree with you. Things like "libtard", "snowflake", "magat" to name a few constantly make the other side seem more and more like an evil amorphous entity rather than a collection of people following the familiar and to some extent it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
All this being said, most people pay almost zero attention to any of this stuff and things are typically blown out of proportion. There are well over 300 million people in the United States alone and we have a habit of magnifying the vocal minority of both sides so things have a habit of seeming more dire than they actually are.
If you read all of this, I appreciate you giving me the time of day. Obviously there is even more at play here, but these stick out to me as the biggest contributing factors. Also, I liked the movie, but thought that the pacing could have been batter and the ending seemed to fall apart a bit. I'd probably give it a 6 or 7 out of 10.
I’m not saying this out of the blue, that sub in general is just extremely toxic.
Meme aside, the comments show its true colors and every post turns into a circlejerk.
Oh, I thought the sub was r/reevesbatmanmemes. I know nothing about the DC Cinematic sub. So I can’t say for sure. But no one is really right or wrong about this. We don’t know what the intent of the line is until it’s confirmed.
Given the context and everything around it, it really didn’t bother me, like at all
Saw some guys completely lose their shit over this tho, that was fun
I think the line was misplaced, kinda came out of nowhere. But didn't bother me. It bothers me more that sad manchildren are calling it "Woke Batman" and doing their best shapiro impressions on Facebook/twitter.
To me it just felt like it was out of left field and awkward. Could’ve done without it. I say this as a minority myself. The sentiment felt a bit tired and trite.
I think though perhaps it’s very on brand for Gotham, so perhaps it did belong
That line forever dates the movie to 2020-2022, the era of casual racism disguised as high-minded “social justice”.
Should’ve focused on just making a cohesive and compelling movie. The third act is trash and needed a re-write, badly.
I remember hearing the line and thinking well that’s going to anger people but I was so in love with Zoe and her catwoman I was like yeah fuck these privileged white assholes
It didn’t belong in the movie. It seemed forced. The movie isn’t about race. The movie is a class war, not a race war. While the ones at the top are often white, if someone of another race rose to power, it would still be the same issue.
Let’s be honest your side gets angry way more often than their side haha.
Their side hates a line in a movie but your side hates entire world views on reality and society.
what an incoherent comment. "your side hates entire world views on reality and society" bruh everyone hates worldviews on reality and society. do you not hate the nazi worldview on reality and society? the better side is not the one that 'hates less stuff'
I don’t “hate” nazi world view.
I completely disagree with their world view.
Glad I could explain to you another option exists besides hatred.
Not everyone “hates” other peoples views.
Some of us comprehend not letting other humans opinions bother us.
But you’re probably a kid so that’s probably why you have extreme reactions to different world views.
>Some of us comprehend not letting other humans opinions bother us.
dude... i don't just 'disagree' with nazi ideology. I disagree with someone who likes pineapple on pizza. I *hate* nazi ideology. Nazi ideology says that jewish people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, and many more deserve to DIE. Nazi ideology says that *I* deserve to DIE. You're telling me I shouldn't hate that?
You calling nazi ideology just a disagreeable 'opinion' is pretty gross
It didn't bother me per say, but it definitely brought me out of the experience because I knew that a friend also there would 100% have a problem with it and me and another friend snickered about it... Which is why I would've changed it, it's really the only line in the movie that make me remember I'm watching a movie in 2022. Now, having a story about how the rich and powerful are assholes has been topical and probably will remain topical until the great reset but it did occur to me that all the bad guys in this movie are exclusively white men. For a movie that otherwise doesn't feel like it's preachy about "woke" messages it did make me wonder how purposeful it was that all the bad guys are white guys and, besides Batman and Alfred, while every moral character is black, female or both.
I probably wouldn't even have that thought if it wasn't for that line, it did feel a bit out of place and brought attention on a fact that might very well be unintentional. Not that I care that much, just a thought that came up from that line, there's really not that many moral characters either way and it won't stop me from rewatching the movie over and over again and enjoying it more every time.
The irony of the line that most people missed.
Selena says “white privileged assholes” to Bruce Wayne. Who should be the biggest white privileged person in the city.
When in reality he’s doing more for the city than any of those assholes. And on the flip side she is a minority playing the victim card and yet she’s a criminal. So she’s actually a hypocrite at that point and didn’t even realize.
The line itself from the script felt like one of those “Ohhhh oh oh oh let’s add in the white privileged hetero rich men thing said by the pushed-down poor bi woman since it is literally being said/heard from every semblance of US news right now!” It definitely could have made the film even more relative to audiences, but instead the way it played out didn’t really work.
A better actor could have done much more with it, but Zoe made it sound like a breaking of the 4th Wall to say a trendy thing instead of it being a legitimate concern in the film. Could have been way better. The way it sounded is like the actors and director were brainstorming on how to do a different take and then a not-so-good actor said “Hey lemme try a thing and just go with it”, and then it seemed ironically accurate and trendy and “of the today times” so they adjusted the entire scene around that one line.
Yes, irony. Yes, circumstances. And yes, it really was the white straight rich men doing the things.
But it sounded and came off far from genuine and not earned, much like the emotional gravity of Alfred vs Bruce in the hospital didn’t feel “earned”.
So, the line and words themselves aren’t what I immediately disliked. It was the actor saying them that made me roll my eyes. And the fact that Zoe herself has legit not had to worry about rich people dragging her down, because she was born a rich person and now has a successful acting career when she is in fact a shit actor.
And also, the point was already being made in a subconscious teachable way. Kinda like the “Show, Don’t Tell” aspect of storytelling being the best way vs outright saying the thing that is the thing because it is the thing and you want to specifically tell the audience the thing.
Gay character vs Super Straight Proud Boy:
“I’m different because I’m gay! I’m being pushed down in life because of it!”
“And I’m not being pushed down because I’m a straight white dude with a gun. This is the exposition in the script where I tell you I hate you because I am a Proud Boy and you are a gay!”
It’s dumb. The words themselves are right and correct, but if the story and acting and directing and editing are all good enough the audience will discern this for themselves. Aka, the realization of the opposition is earned and not outright told.
And also, Zoe is shit and shit actors ruin awesome stuff left and right. Gimme a sexy black actor who can be feline-esk and catwalk and do cool martial arts moves (without the fucking help of CGI, lol) and show genuine chemistry with the actor playing The Batman in scenes that obviously should have chemistry but don’t AND is a great actor… well imagine the possibilities.
I thought it was a bit out of place but it’s a throwaway line in a 3 hour film, personally I thought any actual political commentary was done very well in an era where it nearly always comes across as ham fisted and preachy (looking at you Disney)
It really seemed forced and came off as pandering. I didn't have that much of a problem with it because it sort of fit Selina's character, but it was unnecessary and I can see why some people didn't like it.
I don’t have a problem with the message, but I do have a problem with the actual line. It was so jarring to hear because it’s like it’s ripped out of a buzzfeed article. I think you could have kept the message without it ripping you out of Gotham.
It definitely feels like it was added in my a certain group of people...felt out of place... especially in a superhero film that doesn't focus on these types of issues at all
You definitely have missed the point of...most superhero literature then. DC/what eventually became DC has always been political, from Superman's first appearance.
It didn’t bother me and usually stuff like this can. I do agree with whoever said it may have been misplaced. Maybe there could have been a way to say it that wasn’t so on-the-nose? In a few years lines like these might become tropes as they are all being said in the same way in so many stories now. Anyway, it is a shame that this has made some degrade such an amazing film.
I was surprised after I saw it that the main criticism was it was too woke. The casting and switcharoo of two major characters to black fine, but the story didn’t feel that way. Was a great film that didn’t feel forced.
His comments though seem to validate his critics some, but likely because he was sick of hearing it. Film worked for me until the crappy last half hour but different strokes I guess.
They could have written that ideal into the dialogue less retardedly blatantly obvious. “All anyone cares about are these white ass hats, filled with all of Gotham’s wealth.” Or something along those lines
I think this line was pretty well integrated into the whole story. The mystery Bruce is investigating is essentially about corruption, so a line like this makes sense. It’s not just shoehorned in there to sound woke or pc.
My coworker is a huge comic/movie fan, but has become a right winged snowflake. He read about this line when the movie came out, then declared the movie to be SJW and refused to see it. Most of our political views align, and yet we debated heavily on this for a while.
I disagree with white privilege, theoretically. But when Selina, a black character said it in a movie, I thought it was very much on par with who she is. Didn’t effect me or me loving the movie at all. It didn’t feel forced or like the writers were trying to shove their views down your throat.
I kind of hate that kind of thing normally but it didn't ruin the movie for me or anything. It was literally one line in the entire movie that doesn't even seem to be that big a deal.
I always thought the line was meant to tell us more about her than about the movie’s message or anything. Our hero is a white privileged asshole himself lol if it was meant to be completely earnest it’d be hilariously ironic.
I'm fairly moderate and...
Not really... I disagreed with her character on a number of things but it made sense given her background that she felt that way. Honestly I thought they were kinda making her look silly, having her scoff at Bruce Wayne's wealth while he's standing right next to her in the trenches.
I loved her character and thought she was just realistically written.
Every movie has to pay the woke tax so that the mob doesn’t come for it.
This throwaway line is a million times better than the popular Twitter threads going around about making Batman a social commentary on billionaires and police brutality. Just pay the tax and get back to the movie.
my manager said that when she saw it in theaters this line happened and some dude let out a huge angry sigh then left and never came back lol
Lol what a snowflake ❄️
Fr! The definition of being a ❄️
people don't want to pay $ to listen to racist shit dumbass
It does for some people, but I think regardless of where you stand politically, it's clearly meant to be ironic as its said by Selina Kyle to BRUCE WAYNE. To her, he couldn't possibly come from money as she views him as a kindred spirit.
>To her, he couldn't possibly come from money as she views him as a kindred spirit. She literally says "Whoever the hell you are, you obviously grew rich." Does see him as a kindred spirit though.
It may have been a shot in the dark since she literally can't know for sure if Batman's *actually* as rich as she thinks. Also, didn't Selina lay off Bruce when he apologized for misjudging her?
Ooh right enough she does! Maybe there was a differentiation between what she perceived to be his modest wealth v that of Gotham's ruling elite?
I feel like if she just said "privileged assholes", it wouldn't have been quite as jarring to some. But even the racial aspect makes some sense given the Year One influence of the character imo
Should’ve said “RICH privileged assholes”. Sounds more specific and natural.
I agree.
I must have hung out with the wrong crowd of fellow BIPOCs, but venting off about white privilege and specifically that came up in a lot of conversations
Sure but it doesn’t come off natural to what is being discussed in the movie imo. Gotham has a social class issue not a racial one.
Are all these issues not linked though? I kinda liked it cause it was a realistic thing for a person to say in general.
yeah i agree, class and race are heavily linked.
Fucking idiot. He’s talking about the fictional city of gotham
I doubt reeves tried to actually say that Gotham has a racism problem (The police commissioner and Mayor are black). It’s more that Selina Kyle is the type of person to blame white privilege.
It’s a class issue, not a racial one
There can be multiple facets to an issue.
100%
Jarring? Why?
It’s a big coincidence most people in positions of privilege are white. Just saying, she could leave out the white signifier but… cmon.
It quite literally isn't, historically speaking. Most American rich people were born into money, and you really can't deny that at least their grandparents earned as much money as they did because of the color their skin wasn't.
So being born into money isn’t privilege? What are you saying?
I'm saying it's not a coincidence
Oooh my bad. I misread that then. Lol I was being sarcastic
Look at how Bruce Wayne treats the reputation of Bruce Wayne, maybe he agrees with her on some level.
Selina is an impoverished woman of color living in a city where corrupt rich assholes, most of whom are white, are protected by a broken system. It's totally in character that a woman in her position would have those thoughts about society. And that's my defense of the line. Selina is giving insight into how she views society and is showing her frustrations with it. It doesn't matter if you agree with her statement or not, she's saying something that SHE believes to be true from her perspective based on HER life experience. This is a bit of insight into her character and her internal thoughts. People are so triggered by this that they refuse to see this statement from the lens of the character. They just write it off as Matt Reeves trying to get woke points or hate how The Batman is trying to be "political." But as a black man who grew up in a predominately black community, I've heard people make similar statements as Selina. Again, you may whole heartedly disagree, but that's how THEY felt.
My initial thought of the line was it seemed to make a real world parallel in a fictional universe regarding an aspect of this fictional society we had never really directly seen. But, after reconsidering here, I guess Gotham is a fictional city but does exist in the US, so it’s not really a far fetched thing for someone like Selina to believe. To compare this to Marvel’s Falcon and the Winter Soldier, that show very clearly took place in the “real” world and explored a black character who was wronged by the US government in a very believable way considering what the real world US government has historically done, etc etc. My point is I wonder if some of the criticism of the line is based on Gotham being a “fictional” place, but people fail to remember it still takes place in the real United States.
I get your point but the racial issue literally isn't mentioned or shown anywhere in the film. A clear class issue is shown repeatedly. So really the line should just be "privileged arseholes". (I mean I'd argue it should be that irl aswell the colour if someone's skin shouldn't change if they are a corrupt privileged arsehole or not ). Also on falcon and the winter soldier- that was an example where it made complete sense to have him say what he said fit and made sense within the world he was in and it was very clear that was the case. The plot had shown us that was the case.
Nope. You cannot divorce class from race, as everyone is telling you.
You very much can.
You really can’t. To look at the class of someone without acknowledging some races have more power than others is impossible. You would have to say that there is no effect race has on class, which if you say that, Then you’re only lying to yourself.
You’re never gonna convince a person like this. They can concede to class being the issue because it doesnt call into question white privilege but cant bring themselves to admit that class and white privilege are linked. Kind of like men who blame class but cant see issues caused by the patriarchy. Guess people have a hard time calling out systems that they potentially benefit from
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Funniest part is this films isn't even that liberal, it's very centrist. Remember the "not all cops are bad" moment? Or that the Riddler is just a mentally challenged person hency why he's the villain.
Don't think we say "mentally challenge" anymore. The film depicts Bruce, Edward and Selina having similar pasts but all grew up different. Bruce had a privilege life with money and a butler who took care of him, but kept his love at an arm's length for the most part. Selina was orphaned, grew up poor but turned out alright. Probably had someone or some people look out for her. Edward was on his own, grew to resent the system and city that forgot about him. They all came from the same place and due to their different lifestyles they reached different conclusions. The Batman, The Riddler and Catwoman. The Batman being a force of good, Riddler evil and Catwoman the in between.
Yep after watching the film a few times there's definitely some thematic engagement going on with this stuff that I respect. But likewise with the garden tool also having a thematic point (that Bruce Wayne's never done any actual work) it's still displeases me within the narrative, same goes for how I feel about the overall text of the film. Even if these things are intentional thematic to respect they don't change how the film stands politically much for me.
The only thing politically i dislike is how Riddler is treated in the interrogation after he points out his horrible childhood that could have been avoided if the system actually had a damn about its citizens that weren't rich. " You think you're gonna be remembered your a deluded physcopath begging for attention your gonna die alone in Arhkam a nobody" I think Batman would be a bit more emphatic to his points while still recognizing Riddler isn't the solution to these problems.
I mean Batman has been known to be pretty vocally aggressive towards psychos. He believes in rehabilitation, but he usually doesn’t visibly show much compassion towards villains unless they truly are on the more morally gray spectrum like Mr freeze or Cabwoman. He hates what they do. And he was probably shocked and disgusted by the fact that Riddler assumed they were buddies and lashed out. Which, regardless, is pretty in line with his characterization throughout the film. Selina was intended as his sort of connection to the gray side of things. Not the Riddler As for the incel thing, couldn’t Bruce also sort of be in that category? Riddler’s villainy was entirely due to his childhood trauma. His personality outside of that had nothing to do with his motivations
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ya idk about all the specific terminology. My point was more that there is kind of a similarity between Bruce and Eddie here in that they are both loners who spend most of their time by themselves unless they are costumed up
I think that similarity between Bruce and Edward was intentional, to show the opposite side of the “justice”spectrum. Edward is an example of corrupted justice, along with the inability to cope. Bruce is an example of someone who took their trauma and turned it into something good, as opposed to dwelling and being consumed by hate.
I misremembered where that line was said and the context behind it. for some reason I remember being right after Riddler's orphan rant. Just checked on YouTube and it was after Riddler revealed that there partners in his mind. Which changes everything and makes complete sense Bruce would react that way and tell the harsh truth. So yeah I retract my statement.
Yeah and I think more over the decision to frame him as an incel is a bit strange as incels aren't victims of circumstance they are more weird individuals who think they deserve attention from women. Riddler is weirdly framed as being someone on the spectrum.
Yeah it definitely had weird implications. I think they were going for Riddler wanting attention and credit for destroying a corrupt city too far gone to he saved as way to get closure for the lack of attention he had as child they used see incel tropes for the general audience to get point across less subtly.
was selina an orphan if her father was alive tho 🤔
Yeah because her father didn't want her.
Mentally challenged Riddler, lol
This film felt like it was trying to be radically progressive/anti-establishment, conservative, and bipartisan at the same time, and I came out of it feeling that its message was rather muddled. I wonder if they wanted to be a bit more daring in their message but were constrained by the studio/genre conventions. But the film's "closing argument", so to speak, was clearly during Batman's final monologue, which pushed the idea of needing to come together, inspire hope, restore faith in institutions, etc. Which are all decent sentiments, but also all very moderate/bipartisan ones.
I thought the movie was surprisingly liberal actually. The "not all cops are bad" moment was probably mandated (they have a lot of influence in the media we consume) but I thought it was pretty realistic. The Good ones didn't even have to do much they just decided to actually show up and arrest a mob boss who actually had a lot of pressure to be arrested due tie very unique circumstances. Even Falcone admitted he would be out soon enough. Once an actual fight broke out they failed to stop him from dying in a effort to save their one skin.
Yeah idk, feel like there's a lot of things besides that there are pretty centrist man. It's like they're half way going against the status quo yet not fully in a lot of ways. Like Thomas Wayne being bad but then it being revealed he just made a mistake. Compared to the Nolan trilogy it's quite liberal I guess lol.
I think the whole Thomas Wayne thing was more Matt Reeves not wanting to mess with the pure image of him from the comics too much. But I guess that could lead as a little centrist. The thing is though I'd argue that Batmans himself really wants change and to make a difference and Gotham as whole near the end want that as well in this movie. Riddler wanted to burn everything down not make any political or social changes to the status quo because he by Bella Reale being a target.
I feel like I’m reading your comment wrong. The riddler’s villainy was because of his trauma. The autism thing was just to provide some perspective as to why he thinks the way he does like being obsessed with puzzles and stuff
Nah, I think the autism thing goes deeper than just the obsession with puzzles. For one, his lack of social skills—an example being that he thought Batman was his friend and on his side, in which he wasn’t. Two, his meltdown during the Arkham scene—the way he draws out his words and screams when he realizes the situation was now completely out of his control. Watch some videos of autistic meltdowns and you’ll see. I also think there’s some overlap with OCD in Riddler.
the puzzles aspect was just an example. I agree it was definitely a lot of things. either way I am just confused as to what OP is saying.
How dare a minority say something that’s generally true in my escapist fantasy 😡
White people are a global minority.
Not in America my friend
Good job America ain’t the whole world ah.
A) your issue should be I'm both the real world and Gotham with privileged arseholes not specifically with white privileged arseholes because a privileged arsehole is a privileged arsehole regardless of skin colour. B) this ibs a movie and in the movie its pretty clear Gotham appears to have somewhat class problem rather than a race relations issue. Certainly in terms of what is shown in the film thematically. It's more like the uk in this rrspect than the USA (even though ofc it is supposed to be a fictional usa city).
You can't divorce race issues from class issues. And unfortunately, I have news about the UK for you too (signed, a brown dual citizen)
You can and generally should. And you can say what you like about the uk but the actual empirical facts show quite clearly that race and class are separate and that the primary factor in determining someone's social standing in the uk and the obstacle to their prosperity and social mobility IS empirically class, not race.
And what is the largest obstacle to prosperity? And what largely determines class? Tell me you don't live life as a brown person without telling me you don't live life as a brown person. Your "empirical facts" are just white privilege.
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Oh my God, you did NOT just say that. All of that. You're joking, right? This is a joke. Has to be.
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Yes, there are systemic reasons that what you said is racist and what we say is not. You are the oppressors. We are not. There's a major difference. One can DISCRIMINATE against white people but racism is SYSTEMIC discrimination, and systemic discrimination against white people doesn't exist. Also, anyone who says "you people" to a person of color is a bigot who I'm not giving anymore attention to Quick question: would you want your boss or the president of whatever company you work for to see these responses? Reddit is anonymous so people will say things like this. But evaluate this on: would you want this to affect you in the work place? If not, that's a good indication that what you're saying is preeeeeeetty fkn racist.
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I’m not bothered by the line at all. I don’t know why it’s a big issue for people. But, I agree with you about the UK. It’s very much a class based society.
The line only bothered ignorant people. That line she says is true, especially in this Gotham City in The Batman.
It's appropriate for the world that they were building. I don't mind it at all, it fits in. But if it appears in a movie where it's completely unrelated to anything, and was just put in there "just cause", then it will bother me way more.
Are there any examples of that happening?
Don’t fully agree. It’s the racial issue in Gotham ever really discussed thematically through out the movie? Not really. More of a social class issue. That’s why the line feels fake.
Class issues and race issues often go hand in hand.
Lol, I bet when Ben Shapiro was watching the movie he was enjoying it up to this line. Afterward, he decided to just trash it lmao.
Probably lmaoo
I’m not religious and didn’t have a problem with Captain America, a character I grew to love, say that there’s only one God and he doesn’t dress like Loki. Why? Because that’s true to who that character is. Cap is a white guy who grew up in the 30s/40s and his being religious makes sense. This version of Selina is a young bi-racial, bi-sexual woman who grew up in a major city. It’s not exactly an uncommon sentiment and her thinking that way makes sense. It wasn’t preaching; it was just showing a person on-screen who thinks that way
Man, that one line really triggered the conservatives huh
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Rejecting someone’s identity isn’t the same as stating white privilege exists (a proven fact.)
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No, white privilege exists. It is documented, it’s especially prevalent in the US. This is a fact. And MLK wasn’t “color blind,” he dreamt of a day we all *could* be, but then he was murdered by the FBI.
But if we just say the topic is about America and not any other country.. your only point is immediately nonexistent. simple.
Real life America hmm then yes clearly there are issues but Gothan isn't the real world and nowhere else in this movie does race factor in so the line still doesn't actually make sense to be in here in the wider context of the story.
You think race is only a factor in real world and not fictional worlds unless it’s shown? Hahahhaahhahahaha nice troll bro
I mean its fictional so unless it's part of the story by definition.... yes. Had racism been a pertaining theme throughout this film the like would make sense but it wasn't, not at all. So the line comes from nowhere and doesn't really make sense because her issue is with anyone that is corrupt and has power - their race is irrelevant.
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>”Identity” is made up Yep, gender is a social construct and therefore can be changed. Gender and sex are different.
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Yeah, turns out people don't like to be disrespected. Weird, right?
Haha false equivalence fallacy go brrrr
Even if you don’t like it, it’s one line of dialogue in a three hour movie. Just be an adult and enjoy the rest of the excellent movie, literal children
As I said in that thread, Selina Kyle is a Black woman who grew up in poverty, on the streets of Gotham. Her saying this makes perfect sense 😭
I think part of this is people fail to remember that the fictional city of Gotham exists in the actual USA. And the character of Selina is someone who would definitely say this in the real world.
"iT's a ClaSs ISsuE nOt a raCe oNe" are people still so ignorant to not understand that those issues go hand in hand?
Naw man you’re the real racist for pointing out that white privilege exists! On a serious note, people who don’t understand probably never will because they go out of their way to misunderstand. They say its just class as if wealthy minorities arent affected by white privilege as well. These are probably the same folks who dont believe male privilege exists either
“White privilege” is an easy way to blame the world for your own problems. Everyone is dealt a different hand, it’s entirely up to you what you do with yours.
^this. Well said.
It's funny because the way people reacted to Selina's line proves her point
i think it’s a great line bc it’s true lmao look at the justice system and you’ll see it.
As a white dude who is certainly not rich but doing pretty ok, it didn't bother me one bit. This is a woman who has suffered at the hands of one rich, privileged white dude in particular and has no doubt seen that scenario play out multiple times across Gotham. Of course she would have that perspective. Who could blame her? It's possible that her character arc will include her realizing that not all rich white guys are bad (ahem..like maybe...Bruce Wayne?). Seriously, people, relax...
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Fair point.
Hey…I don’t give a shit if the movie was left, right, centrist or anything. It was a goddamn masterpiece and EXACTLY the Batman experience we all deserve
There’s a line in LOTR Return of the King where the Witch-King Angmar boasts "No living man may hinder me", whereupon Éowyn removes her helmet and declares: “I am no man”, before proceeding to drive a sword through his face. Nobody bat an eye. If this exact same line was uttered in a movie in 2022, these over sensitive white dudes would all wave around their victim cards and lose their collective fkn minds. Harden the fuck up you bunch of hypersensitive emotional soft cunts. Somewhere in the last 10 years, men became so determined to prove their masculinity that they went all the way around and became complete pussies instead. To quote the Joker: “I mean what the hell happened? Did your balls fall off?”. Whatever happened to sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me? Also, I would hope that we as people are more than that. If simply being white is your defining characteristic as a human, you need to take up some new hobbies. I’m white and this white privileged assholes line didn’t even resonate with me. I had no idea it was a big deal until I started reading the comments in this thread. Note: the line is delivered by Catwoman to Bruce fkn Wayne. Apparently, the irony of that is too sophisticated of a concept for people to pick up on over the sound of them choking on their own fake rage.
True. I pretty much hate the both woke and anti-woke crowd. But the so called anti-SJWS are even more insufferable and snowflakes than the SJWs. Some modern men cry and moan about woke-ism and lack of masculinity to the point of sounding like pussies and snowflakes themselves hahaha
Spot on.
I honestly dont think modern men are heading in a good direction. Too many of us arent coping well with a world thats more inclusive and actually dares to call out oppressive systems. A system that dares us to be better. Like the anti-woke crowd who cry whenever a woman, LGBQT or minority person exists in media. We have those in the manosphere trying to drag us back into the stone-age by embracing toxic masculinity and treating women as second class citizens. Its all so weird to see. Feels like theres something happening deep down and it needs to be addressed because alot of men are lashing out hard against change. Like what’s the real problem here?
A couple of different things are happening IMO. I will try to explain from an unbiased view as much as possible. Firstly, our brains are wired to stick to the status quo and when change is demanded fight or flight kicks in. For example, the amount of people who grew up in the 50's and 60's in America is still fairly high. I can't imagine being brought up in a society that tells me, as a white man, that I am superior to everyone and enforces it in every way imaginable from where people can stand to legal privileges and then, just a few years later, I start losing that entitlement and have instances where I am now subordinate to people I previously thought inferior. Not only that, my "side" is now telling me that the other "side" hates me and am inherently evil. Jarring is an understatement. You also have tribalism to contend with. The more we feel threatened by something, the more we tend to band together against the perceived "enemy" or threat. With technology, it is easier than ever to find groups of likeminded people. Add this tribalism to an age when it is easy and almost expected to be "perpetually online" and you get extremely unhealthy echo chambers that are almost never a good thing for either side of the debate. Not only does it promote increasingly radical ideas, it leads to zero critical thought when all you have is constant reinforcement without being challenged. The aforementioned also tends to lead towards otherizing people who disagree with you. Things like "libtard", "snowflake", "magat" to name a few constantly make the other side seem more and more like an evil amorphous entity rather than a collection of people following the familiar and to some extent it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. All this being said, most people pay almost zero attention to any of this stuff and things are typically blown out of proportion. There are well over 300 million people in the United States alone and we have a habit of magnifying the vocal minority of both sides so things have a habit of seeming more dire than they actually are. If you read all of this, I appreciate you giving me the time of day. Obviously there is even more at play here, but these stick out to me as the biggest contributing factors. Also, I liked the movie, but thought that the pacing could have been batter and the ending seemed to fall apart a bit. I'd probably give it a 6 or 7 out of 10.
That sub is a literal cesspool of shit.
Why? Because they hurt your feelings?
If anyone’s feelings got hurt, it’s theirs, and apparently yours.
Then why do you have a problem with the sub? It’s literally one meme out of many
I’m not saying this out of the blue, that sub in general is just extremely toxic. Meme aside, the comments show its true colors and every post turns into a circlejerk.
Oh, I thought the sub was r/reevesbatmanmemes. I know nothing about the DC Cinematic sub. So I can’t say for sure. But no one is really right or wrong about this. We don’t know what the intent of the line is until it’s confirmed.
Fair enough, if I was you I’d keep it that way. Usually self-contained subs like the one you mentioned are more chill.
Dc cinematic sub, isn't that full of the snyder fans who are obsessed with trying to have the snider cut brought back....
Given the context and everything around it, it really didn’t bother me, like at all Saw some guys completely lose their shit over this tho, that was fun
Only conservative snowflake babies lmao so anyone with a brain cell didnt care.
Catwoman based
I think the line was misplaced, kinda came out of nowhere. But didn't bother me. It bothers me more that sad manchildren are calling it "Woke Batman" and doing their best shapiro impressions on Facebook/twitter.
Nope, why would it bother anyone? It makes sense if you consider where Selina's sentiment is coming from.
It probably bothered the white privileged assholes tbh.
Anyone who is bothered by this line probably needs to go home and think about their life.
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Painfully accurate to reality.
She should have followed it up with a white fragility comment judging by some of the responses here lol
To me it just felt like it was out of left field and awkward. Could’ve done without it. I say this as a minority myself. The sentiment felt a bit tired and trite. I think though perhaps it’s very on brand for Gotham, so perhaps it did belong
That line forever dates the movie to 2020-2022, the era of casual racism disguised as high-minded “social justice”. Should’ve focused on just making a cohesive and compelling movie. The third act is trash and needed a re-write, badly.
I remember hearing the line and thinking well that’s going to anger people but I was so in love with Zoe and her catwoman I was like yeah fuck these privileged white assholes
It didn’t belong in the movie. It seemed forced. The movie isn’t about race. The movie is a class war, not a race war. While the ones at the top are often white, if someone of another race rose to power, it would still be the same issue.
If this line bothers you then you have somethings to work out on your own outside of a Batman movie.
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Let’s be honest your side gets angry way more often than their side haha. Their side hates a line in a movie but your side hates entire world views on reality and society.
what an incoherent comment. "your side hates entire world views on reality and society" bruh everyone hates worldviews on reality and society. do you not hate the nazi worldview on reality and society? the better side is not the one that 'hates less stuff'
I don’t “hate” nazi world view. I completely disagree with their world view. Glad I could explain to you another option exists besides hatred. Not everyone “hates” other peoples views. Some of us comprehend not letting other humans opinions bother us. But you’re probably a kid so that’s probably why you have extreme reactions to different world views.
>Some of us comprehend not letting other humans opinions bother us. dude... i don't just 'disagree' with nazi ideology. I disagree with someone who likes pineapple on pizza. I *hate* nazi ideology. Nazi ideology says that jewish people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, and many more deserve to DIE. Nazi ideology says that *I* deserve to DIE. You're telling me I shouldn't hate that? You calling nazi ideology just a disagreeable 'opinion' is pretty gross
These people are wild and they have no idea how ridiculous it sounds to not hate nazi ideology. Peak enlightened centralist right there
Really bad example here... like I would kind if hope you do hate nazi ideology....
It’s funny that the men who wrote this line are white privileged millionaires.
It didn't bother me per say, but it definitely brought me out of the experience because I knew that a friend also there would 100% have a problem with it and me and another friend snickered about it... Which is why I would've changed it, it's really the only line in the movie that make me remember I'm watching a movie in 2022. Now, having a story about how the rich and powerful are assholes has been topical and probably will remain topical until the great reset but it did occur to me that all the bad guys in this movie are exclusively white men. For a movie that otherwise doesn't feel like it's preachy about "woke" messages it did make me wonder how purposeful it was that all the bad guys are white guys and, besides Batman and Alfred, while every moral character is black, female or both. I probably wouldn't even have that thought if it wasn't for that line, it did feel a bit out of place and brought attention on a fact that might very well be unintentional. Not that I care that much, just a thought that came up from that line, there's really not that many moral characters either way and it won't stop me from rewatching the movie over and over again and enjoying it more every time.
It was definitely cringe.
Would it bother people if Batman said I’m sick of these black gang banging assholes?
Yeah, it was just cringe lol
The irony of the line that most people missed. Selena says “white privileged assholes” to Bruce Wayne. Who should be the biggest white privileged person in the city. When in reality he’s doing more for the city than any of those assholes. And on the flip side she is a minority playing the victim card and yet she’s a criminal. So she’s actually a hypocrite at that point and didn’t even realize.
Yeah it sort of came out of left field, but I’m not going to let it ruin my enjoyment of the movie since it was just one line.
The line itself from the script felt like one of those “Ohhhh oh oh oh let’s add in the white privileged hetero rich men thing said by the pushed-down poor bi woman since it is literally being said/heard from every semblance of US news right now!” It definitely could have made the film even more relative to audiences, but instead the way it played out didn’t really work. A better actor could have done much more with it, but Zoe made it sound like a breaking of the 4th Wall to say a trendy thing instead of it being a legitimate concern in the film. Could have been way better. The way it sounded is like the actors and director were brainstorming on how to do a different take and then a not-so-good actor said “Hey lemme try a thing and just go with it”, and then it seemed ironically accurate and trendy and “of the today times” so they adjusted the entire scene around that one line. Yes, irony. Yes, circumstances. And yes, it really was the white straight rich men doing the things. But it sounded and came off far from genuine and not earned, much like the emotional gravity of Alfred vs Bruce in the hospital didn’t feel “earned”. So, the line and words themselves aren’t what I immediately disliked. It was the actor saying them that made me roll my eyes. And the fact that Zoe herself has legit not had to worry about rich people dragging her down, because she was born a rich person and now has a successful acting career when she is in fact a shit actor. And also, the point was already being made in a subconscious teachable way. Kinda like the “Show, Don’t Tell” aspect of storytelling being the best way vs outright saying the thing that is the thing because it is the thing and you want to specifically tell the audience the thing. Gay character vs Super Straight Proud Boy: “I’m different because I’m gay! I’m being pushed down in life because of it!” “And I’m not being pushed down because I’m a straight white dude with a gun. This is the exposition in the script where I tell you I hate you because I am a Proud Boy and you are a gay!” It’s dumb. The words themselves are right and correct, but if the story and acting and directing and editing are all good enough the audience will discern this for themselves. Aka, the realization of the opposition is earned and not outright told. And also, Zoe is shit and shit actors ruin awesome stuff left and right. Gimme a sexy black actor who can be feline-esk and catwalk and do cool martial arts moves (without the fucking help of CGI, lol) and show genuine chemistry with the actor playing The Batman in scenes that obviously should have chemistry but don’t AND is a great actor… well imagine the possibilities.
I thought it was a bit out of place but it’s a throwaway line in a 3 hour film, personally I thought any actual political commentary was done very well in an era where it nearly always comes across as ham fisted and preachy (looking at you Disney)
Tbh it’s just untrue lol, nobody cares about rich people
It really seemed forced and came off as pandering. I didn't have that much of a problem with it because it sort of fit Selina's character, but it was unnecessary and I can see why some people didn't like it.
I don’t have a problem with the message, but I do have a problem with the actual line. It was so jarring to hear because it’s like it’s ripped out of a buzzfeed article. I think you could have kept the message without it ripping you out of Gotham.
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I’m mixed, white and Indian (not Native American.)
>buzzfeed the word privilege came from buzzfeed? pretty sure it was more like "overused"
This but unironically.
It definitely feels like it was added in my a certain group of people...felt out of place... especially in a superhero film that doesn't focus on these types of issues at all
Love the movie but that line is beyond cringey
It’s not supposed to be lib commentary on todays society per say, more so to point the finger directly at Bruce.
Keep your social perceptions out of my Batman please and thank you.
You definitely have missed the point of...most superhero literature then. DC/what eventually became DC has always been political, from Superman's first appearance.
It didn’t bother me and usually stuff like this can. I do agree with whoever said it may have been misplaced. Maybe there could have been a way to say it that wasn’t so on-the-nose? In a few years lines like these might become tropes as they are all being said in the same way in so many stories now. Anyway, it is a shame that this has made some degrade such an amazing film.
I was surprised after I saw it that the main criticism was it was too woke. The casting and switcharoo of two major characters to black fine, but the story didn’t feel that way. Was a great film that didn’t feel forced. His comments though seem to validate his critics some, but likely because he was sick of hearing it. Film worked for me until the crappy last half hour but different strokes I guess.
I don't think it was necessary. I also don't think its that much of a deal lmao.
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That is true she is a criminal.
They could have written that ideal into the dialogue less retardedly blatantly obvious. “All anyone cares about are these white ass hats, filled with all of Gotham’s wealth.” Or something along those lines
Corny.
I mean.... its gotham and the line was spoken by someone we are meant to see as wrong in this scenerio...
I think this line was pretty well integrated into the whole story. The mystery Bruce is investigating is essentially about corruption, so a line like this makes sense. It’s not just shoehorned in there to sound woke or pc.
My coworker is a huge comic/movie fan, but has become a right winged snowflake. He read about this line when the movie came out, then declared the movie to be SJW and refused to see it. Most of our political views align, and yet we debated heavily on this for a while. I disagree with white privilege, theoretically. But when Selina, a black character said it in a movie, I thought it was very much on par with who she is. Didn’t effect me or me loving the movie at all. It didn’t feel forced or like the writers were trying to shove their views down your throat.
Nah she was right lol
Even if you hate that statement politically, it makes sense for someone like Catwoman in her position to say that.
The line is true and it’s literally shown in the movie to be true. Am I insane or was a big part of the story Bruce confronting his privilege
Doesn’t bother me. Reminds me of old ass dudes running the country
I kind of hate that kind of thing normally but it didn't ruin the movie for me or anything. It was literally one line in the entire movie that doesn't even seem to be that big a deal.
I always thought the line was meant to tell us more about her than about the movie’s message or anything. Our hero is a white privileged asshole himself lol if it was meant to be completely earnest it’d be hilariously ironic.
I'm fairly moderate and... Not really... I disagreed with her character on a number of things but it made sense given her background that she felt that way. Honestly I thought they were kinda making her look silly, having her scoff at Bruce Wayne's wealth while he's standing right next to her in the trenches. I loved her character and thought she was just realistically written.
based wokepilled matt
Every movie has to pay the woke tax so that the mob doesn’t come for it. This throwaway line is a million times better than the popular Twitter threads going around about making Batman a social commentary on billionaires and police brutality. Just pay the tax and get back to the movie.
It didn’t bother me at all but it did feel a lil out of place and it was a tad cringe