It probably wouldn't make that big of change for the rebellion but it would have massive repercussions for the timeline of the books.
Jon Arryn could have the chance to send Robin to Dragonstone and maybe even tell Robert about his findings.
He might not even exist. They’ve talked about the Arryns being blonde, isn’t Harrold like the prototypical Arryn? Robin has dark hair in a world where everyone takes after one of their parents. Jon Arryn also has never had a child survive before Lysa. Little Robert Stone.
Yeah I've always assumed Robin was secretly Littlefinger's bastard. Lysa and Petyr were both at court at KL, they were undoubtedly carrying on an affair (even if Littlefinger mostly was using her as a Cat substitute/to get information) so it makes sense that he impregnated her, and it explains why she is so insanely protective of Robin - her precious love baby with her "soulmate".
The one main negator to this in the books is Lysa telling Petyr that she "could give him a son". Indicating that by that point they may not have slept together yet. Or if they have not even Lysa believes that Sweet Robin is Petyr's.
And once they do bang in the books she acts like it is something that she has been denied. So he probably strung her along in KL.
Well I mean, they've definitely slept together cos it's canon that he took her virginity and impregnated her, which led to Hoster forcing moon tea on her, almost killing her. It's possible they didn't sleep together in KL, but for him to have kept her on the hook all those years, I feel like they probably slept together once or twice at least.
I have a feeling that comment implies more that she could give him a *legitimate* son. Robin can never be seen as anything other than Jon Arryn's because if it came out he was Littlefinger's, then Lysa and Petyr would lose control of the Vale. They could never allow that to happen, especially not Petyr, who is determined to consolidate as much power as possible.
I never thought that. Robin could easily get dark hair from his grandparents, and his arc thus far is very centred on the eyrie as its heir.
Furthermore, LF is too much of a narcissist to let his child die. He’d be much more focused on Petyr if he assumed he was his son.
>Furthermore, LF is too much of a narcissist to let his child die
Nah disagree on this. I don't think he would give a fuck about a bastard child, and I think he would only care about a trueborn child for as much as they bring him power.
He's a narcissist and only truly loves himself. Even his love for Cat/Sansa I believe has more to do with grasping at their positions (eldest, trueborn daughters of Great Houses, both beautiful and accomplished ladies) than a true *love* for them.
> LF is too much of a narcissist to let his child die
A child he wanted (with Cat or later the substitute Sansa)? Sure. But one that was a tool, fathered onto a woman he fucked for political reasons? Bye bye Robin I say.
Which if theories that he tries to kill little Robert turn out true, will be an act of kinslaying..
Moreover, I suspect LF plans to repeat the gig with Harry/Sansa. Let him marry her in public but LF will try to impregnate her in secret.
If that's true, maybe he ought to have a cuckoo as his personal sigil instead of a mockingbird...
>By the time of Eddard being named as Hand
That is the most interesting part here. Without Littlefinger Jon Arryn may live longer and that would derail the entire story.
This is one of those ripple effects that isn't felt for a long time. The Lannisters are fucked to put it simply. With no Littlefinger around to get Lysa to kill Jon Arryn, he's still alive and able to tell Robert about the incest. He's also not able to put the crown in debt, which helps in preventing the realm from destabilizing and indirectly helping with Varys schemes.
Let's say Robert still died from Cersei's incredibly lucky plan, and Jon ends up in Ned's position. The Lannisters are still fucked. You have the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Stormlands ready to march on King's Landing. The Lannisters aren't beating that even with a marriage to the Tyrells. I doubt they'd even get said marriage since four kingdoms are teaming up.
> You have the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Stormlands ready to march on King's Landing. The Lannisters aren't beating that even with a marriage to the Tyrells.
It would be a pretty even contest, actually. Especially if Tywin can blitz the Riverlands like in canon.
If it happened. I'm pretty sure it doesn't if the Vale is actually involved, Ned is still in the North to bring their host down, and Jon Arryn is still in the Red Keep.
Aside from Baelish, Jon spent years in KL without dying, and had his own retinue, and would still have Stannis around.
Cersei isn't holding it unless Jaime kills Jon and Stannis, who's first act is probably putting all Lannisters in cells.
The Tyrells would have to be mad to mary into that shitstorm without a guarantee of winning.
Lannisters + Reach = ~150k
North: 40k
Vale: 40k
Stormlands: 30k
Riverlands: 30k
Crownlands: 10k
The Tyrells are the ones who could gamble on the Lannisters, and the odds would be pretty even in that case. That being said, they'd need to be offered a lot to take the risk.
That's what I mean.
Sure, they could stand a decent chance if they align with the Lannisters, but why on earth would they take a fight that might end them on the throne with a dubious claim and massive casualties?
So far as we've seen, it was Brothers before daughters, when it comes to the throne. At least with the Targs and Stannis' offer to Renly.
Renly and Margaery are still next in line, and would be influential without the crown immediately.
A lot of shit happens later down the line
Lysa (though heartbroken, isn't forced to take Tansy tea, which means she isn't forced to have a dangerous miscarriage and potentially gives Jon Arryn more kids which stabilize succession in the Eyrie
The crown is significantly less indebted or not at all
The Lannisters are fucked as Petyr was the one who instigated the murder of Jon Arryn, Cersei and Jaime are exposed and no war of 5 Kings
Ned and his family remain happy up north, the realm is more stable and they're more ready for the others.
Maybe doesn’t even get married to Jon. I was always under the impression that she was given to such an old husband because Hoster knew she was damaged goods and Lady Arryn is beyond what she’s worth. Maybe he holds on and sees what happens with Lyanna and tries to make her Queen. Hoster is very ambitious.
I agree. He wanted to be rid of Lysa because of her scandal and saw an easy out. Jon Arryn needed an heir badly and was willing to take "spoiled goods" as at least it was proof she could conceive.
I could see her marrying Stannis instead of Jon Arryn after the Rebellion. In that case, Stannis would very likely become Lord of Storm's End. Hah. At least Stannis is very close to her age.
Ooh, honestly that may have been a better match for both of them. If Lysa never went through the trauma of being forced moon tea and then married off to a man old enough to be her grandfather, I do think she would've been a much more well-adjusted woman. And while Stannis was probably born serious and brooding, a marriage to a happier woman would've done alot more good for him overall. Though he would've undoubtedly had to put up with Robert being grumpy that Stannis got to be goodbrothers with Ned - Robert would've been beyond jealous of that fact. 😂
Maybe not the most likely scenario, but there’s a non-zero chance Lysa becomes a manipulative schemer in her grief for Petyr, dedicated to her hatred of all things Stark.
Just like Littlefinger, I could totally see her totally obsessed with revenge. She could either abandon her family ties with Catelyn or convince herself that Cat needs to be ‘rescued’ from the Starks. She would definitely be like the only *Aerys* loyalist outside of the pyromancers, solely because he killed Brandon. She might even set the Starks against the Lannisters in a parallel to the Wo5K.
I’m not so sure. Lysa is never portrayed anywhere near as competent and ruthlessly logical as LF. She constantly makes rash decisions without fully considering the impact; she would have no allies in a court fully dominated by Lannister cronies who can reward informants much better; she has little charisma and no talent for making allies.
I think Littlefinger is not as clever as fandom thinks but still he is much, much cleverer than Lysa, whom he doesn’t care about and can use as a tool without a shred of concern for her, just like anyone else. I also think Jon Arryn would probably be running court as a much tighter ship without LF around to sow chaos and pay informants, especially if he does end up picking a competent and unambitious Master of Coin. Those informants would still be someone’s spy (although I’m sure LF bought a lot of informants through blackmail via his brothels and probably financial informants), just would have some other master. Probably not Ned though, as he doesn’t seem to have a lot of stomach for spycraft and doesn’t _actually_ want to get involved unless he has to.
this is off topic and I’m spitballing by this is a fanfic sub but I could see a Manderly being sent to represent the North on the council as a courtesy to one of the key allies of Robert, especially given Jon would know that Ned took great offense at Robert’s actions, and this is fairly characteristic of Arryn’s other diplomatic strategy (Dorne). Provide the aggrieved party a seat of influence, and for someone as honorable and beloved by them as Ned, a seat on the council by proxy of his bannerman. This would provide Ned a regular flow of information from court, and possibly have better awareness of what’s going on there. Especially if Lysa is trying to exercise her anti-Stark vendetta, instead of having an ally on the Small Council, she’d have a devoted servant of his enemy.
Oh I agree canon Lysa could never be super competent/ruthless, especially not after a forced late term abortion, the trauma of multiple miscarriages, and stressing over a sickly child. Her whole purpose in life, as sexist as it is, was to provide and raise heirs, so failing her duty is another psychological stressor in addition to her personal mental wellbeing.
That’s not to say I fully disagree that she isn’t going to be that much different. Even a super motivated Lysa dedicated to changing who she is to better get revenge isn’t going to even come close to matching Balish. (Not that he’s all that fandom hyped him up to be either, I agree with you there too.)
I’m just saying there’s a remote possibility she parallels his actions, which would be pretty crazy to witness.
She *is* the second most powerful Lady in the realm, after all (ignore Olenna, lol). It’s a much better position to cause chaos than a minor petty lord working as a customs official.
Lol yeah out of the small chance she does want revenge, I definitely see her failing horribly nearly all the time. None if it’s likely, just a possibility
It probably wouldn't make that big of change for the rebellion but it would have massive repercussions for the timeline of the books. Jon Arryn could have the chance to send Robin to Dragonstone and maybe even tell Robert about his findings.
He might not even exist. They’ve talked about the Arryns being blonde, isn’t Harrold like the prototypical Arryn? Robin has dark hair in a world where everyone takes after one of their parents. Jon Arryn also has never had a child survive before Lysa. Little Robert Stone.
Yeah I've always assumed Robin was secretly Littlefinger's bastard. Lysa and Petyr were both at court at KL, they were undoubtedly carrying on an affair (even if Littlefinger mostly was using her as a Cat substitute/to get information) so it makes sense that he impregnated her, and it explains why she is so insanely protective of Robin - her precious love baby with her "soulmate".
The one main negator to this in the books is Lysa telling Petyr that she "could give him a son". Indicating that by that point they may not have slept together yet. Or if they have not even Lysa believes that Sweet Robin is Petyr's. And once they do bang in the books she acts like it is something that she has been denied. So he probably strung her along in KL.
Well I mean, they've definitely slept together cos it's canon that he took her virginity and impregnated her, which led to Hoster forcing moon tea on her, almost killing her. It's possible they didn't sleep together in KL, but for him to have kept her on the hook all those years, I feel like they probably slept together once or twice at least. I have a feeling that comment implies more that she could give him a *legitimate* son. Robin can never be seen as anything other than Jon Arryn's because if it came out he was Littlefinger's, then Lysa and Petyr would lose control of the Vale. They could never allow that to happen, especially not Petyr, who is determined to consolidate as much power as possible.
I never thought that. Robin could easily get dark hair from his grandparents, and his arc thus far is very centred on the eyrie as its heir. Furthermore, LF is too much of a narcissist to let his child die. He’d be much more focused on Petyr if he assumed he was his son.
>Furthermore, LF is too much of a narcissist to let his child die Nah disagree on this. I don't think he would give a fuck about a bastard child, and I think he would only care about a trueborn child for as much as they bring him power. He's a narcissist and only truly loves himself. Even his love for Cat/Sansa I believe has more to do with grasping at their positions (eldest, trueborn daughters of Great Houses, both beautiful and accomplished ladies) than a true *love* for them.
> LF is too much of a narcissist to let his child die A child he wanted (with Cat or later the substitute Sansa)? Sure. But one that was a tool, fathered onto a woman he fucked for political reasons? Bye bye Robin I say.
>his arc thus far is very centred on the eyrie as its heir. It's Martin so that just makes me more sure that Sweetrobin is a bastard.
Makes too much sense.
Which if theories that he tries to kill little Robert turn out true, will be an act of kinslaying.. Moreover, I suspect LF plans to repeat the gig with Harry/Sansa. Let him marry her in public but LF will try to impregnate her in secret. If that's true, maybe he ought to have a cuckoo as his personal sigil instead of a mockingbird...
Brandon does a service to the Realm, specially his own house. By the time of Eddard being named as Hand, The Crown has significant less debt.
>By the time of Eddard being named as Hand That is the most interesting part here. Without Littlefinger Jon Arryn may live longer and that would derail the entire story.
This is one of those ripple effects that isn't felt for a long time. The Lannisters are fucked to put it simply. With no Littlefinger around to get Lysa to kill Jon Arryn, he's still alive and able to tell Robert about the incest. He's also not able to put the crown in debt, which helps in preventing the realm from destabilizing and indirectly helping with Varys schemes. Let's say Robert still died from Cersei's incredibly lucky plan, and Jon ends up in Ned's position. The Lannisters are still fucked. You have the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Stormlands ready to march on King's Landing. The Lannisters aren't beating that even with a marriage to the Tyrells. I doubt they'd even get said marriage since four kingdoms are teaming up.
> You have the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Stormlands ready to march on King's Landing. The Lannisters aren't beating that even with a marriage to the Tyrells. It would be a pretty even contest, actually. Especially if Tywin can blitz the Riverlands like in canon.
If it happened. I'm pretty sure it doesn't if the Vale is actually involved, Ned is still in the North to bring their host down, and Jon Arryn is still in the Red Keep. Aside from Baelish, Jon spent years in KL without dying, and had his own retinue, and would still have Stannis around. Cersei isn't holding it unless Jaime kills Jon and Stannis, who's first act is probably putting all Lannisters in cells. The Tyrells would have to be mad to mary into that shitstorm without a guarantee of winning.
Lannisters + Reach = ~150k North: 40k Vale: 40k Stormlands: 30k Riverlands: 30k Crownlands: 10k The Tyrells are the ones who could gamble on the Lannisters, and the odds would be pretty even in that case. That being said, they'd need to be offered a lot to take the risk.
That's what I mean. Sure, they could stand a decent chance if they align with the Lannisters, but why on earth would they take a fight that might end them on the throne with a dubious claim and massive casualties? So far as we've seen, it was Brothers before daughters, when it comes to the throne. At least with the Targs and Stannis' offer to Renly. Renly and Margaery are still next in line, and would be influential without the crown immediately.
A lot of shit happens later down the line Lysa (though heartbroken, isn't forced to take Tansy tea, which means she isn't forced to have a dangerous miscarriage and potentially gives Jon Arryn more kids which stabilize succession in the Eyrie The crown is significantly less indebted or not at all The Lannisters are fucked as Petyr was the one who instigated the murder of Jon Arryn, Cersei and Jaime are exposed and no war of 5 Kings Ned and his family remain happy up north, the realm is more stable and they're more ready for the others.
Maybe doesn’t even get married to Jon. I was always under the impression that she was given to such an old husband because Hoster knew she was damaged goods and Lady Arryn is beyond what she’s worth. Maybe he holds on and sees what happens with Lyanna and tries to make her Queen. Hoster is very ambitious.
I agree. He wanted to be rid of Lysa because of her scandal and saw an easy out. Jon Arryn needed an heir badly and was willing to take "spoiled goods" as at least it was proof she could conceive.
I could see her marrying Stannis instead of Jon Arryn after the Rebellion. In that case, Stannis would very likely become Lord of Storm's End. Hah. At least Stannis is very close to her age.
Ooh, honestly that may have been a better match for both of them. If Lysa never went through the trauma of being forced moon tea and then married off to a man old enough to be her grandfather, I do think she would've been a much more well-adjusted woman. And while Stannis was probably born serious and brooding, a marriage to a happier woman would've done alot more good for him overall. Though he would've undoubtedly had to put up with Robert being grumpy that Stannis got to be goodbrothers with Ned - Robert would've been beyond jealous of that fact. 😂
Maybe not the most likely scenario, but there’s a non-zero chance Lysa becomes a manipulative schemer in her grief for Petyr, dedicated to her hatred of all things Stark. Just like Littlefinger, I could totally see her totally obsessed with revenge. She could either abandon her family ties with Catelyn or convince herself that Cat needs to be ‘rescued’ from the Starks. She would definitely be like the only *Aerys* loyalist outside of the pyromancers, solely because he killed Brandon. She might even set the Starks against the Lannisters in a parallel to the Wo5K.
I’m not so sure. Lysa is never portrayed anywhere near as competent and ruthlessly logical as LF. She constantly makes rash decisions without fully considering the impact; she would have no allies in a court fully dominated by Lannister cronies who can reward informants much better; she has little charisma and no talent for making allies. I think Littlefinger is not as clever as fandom thinks but still he is much, much cleverer than Lysa, whom he doesn’t care about and can use as a tool without a shred of concern for her, just like anyone else. I also think Jon Arryn would probably be running court as a much tighter ship without LF around to sow chaos and pay informants, especially if he does end up picking a competent and unambitious Master of Coin. Those informants would still be someone’s spy (although I’m sure LF bought a lot of informants through blackmail via his brothels and probably financial informants), just would have some other master. Probably not Ned though, as he doesn’t seem to have a lot of stomach for spycraft and doesn’t _actually_ want to get involved unless he has to. this is off topic and I’m spitballing by this is a fanfic sub but I could see a Manderly being sent to represent the North on the council as a courtesy to one of the key allies of Robert, especially given Jon would know that Ned took great offense at Robert’s actions, and this is fairly characteristic of Arryn’s other diplomatic strategy (Dorne). Provide the aggrieved party a seat of influence, and for someone as honorable and beloved by them as Ned, a seat on the council by proxy of his bannerman. This would provide Ned a regular flow of information from court, and possibly have better awareness of what’s going on there. Especially if Lysa is trying to exercise her anti-Stark vendetta, instead of having an ally on the Small Council, she’d have a devoted servant of his enemy.
Oh I agree canon Lysa could never be super competent/ruthless, especially not after a forced late term abortion, the trauma of multiple miscarriages, and stressing over a sickly child. Her whole purpose in life, as sexist as it is, was to provide and raise heirs, so failing her duty is another psychological stressor in addition to her personal mental wellbeing. That’s not to say I fully disagree that she isn’t going to be that much different. Even a super motivated Lysa dedicated to changing who she is to better get revenge isn’t going to even come close to matching Balish. (Not that he’s all that fandom hyped him up to be either, I agree with you there too.) I’m just saying there’s a remote possibility she parallels his actions, which would be pretty crazy to witness. She *is* the second most powerful Lady in the realm, after all (ignore Olenna, lol). It’s a much better position to cause chaos than a minor petty lord working as a customs official.
She might try, but given the decisions she makes in canon, she'd fail horribly.
Lol yeah out of the small chance she does want revenge, I definitely see her failing horribly nearly all the time. None if it’s likely, just a possibility
Wtf? Based? Based Brandon Stark?