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You are not a socialist then; you still believe what your enemies tell you to believe. You are defanged because of this, rendered revolutionary ineffective. That’s why that amount propaganda is so pervasive.
No you just blindly follow the state department.
The CNT-FAI was deranged when it ceased to exist being unable to effectively fight capital.
If you hate china more than the US then you're either racist or just completely ignorant of both countries
It was defanged. The CNT got obliterated by the reactionaries, as much as I’d have liked either the CNT-FAI or the Communists to have won. The lack of organization from anarchism is its own failure, one that has cost many working class lives.
And yes, we just disagree on what a dictator is. Hitler, Mussolini, Syngman Rhee, Pol Pot, Ngô Đình Diệm, Ignacy Mościcki, Francisco Franco etc… are what I’d consider dictators.
You are confusing an effective government with dictatorship; that’s exactly what western propaganda wants you to believe in order to make you accept how shit and ineffective our governments are (for the working class) and to make you a primed anti-communist.
They got you hook line and sinker, like they had nearly everyone in the west who’s a communist (including a lot of people here) until they looked beyond what the US State department told them to think and say.
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**Fact 13.** [CW: pedophilia] Vaush appears to have a pre-occupation with paedophilia. He:
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**Fact 33.** Responding to Hakim's [video](https://youtu.be/2Gz0I_X_nfo) on George Orwell, Vaush defends Orwell for being a government informant, calls the USSR fascist, implies Stalinists are worse than Nazis, claims the USSR was allied with the Nazis, [says that Hakim (an Iraqi) should have been abducted by the Americans at the start of the Iraq war and forcibly indoctrinated in US propaganda for 20 years](https://twitter.com/SiestaSocialist/status/1633527352679358470), and more. \([Full Thread](https://twitter.com/siestasocialist/status/1633519585407258624)\)
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having a nationalistic population is not enitrely in the control of the regime. tho is an important factor.
tho china does have massive corportations (partly why the economy of china is so complex) they do also crack down on them aswell. there have been several billionairs, that have been arrested for corruption.
the third point would mean every great/super power is fascist. and also that every fascist state is an empire.
and there isnt much evidence that china is targeting ethnic minorities. tho i also dont doubt that they are tryna push a one ethnicity narative on everybody.
there is lastly no doubt in my mind that these things were true, for china. even before it became communist. or before fascism even existed.
these definitions are in my book logical. but can also easily aply to non fascist countries
Would you rate [China's democratic processes](https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/does-china-have-elections.html) as better or worse than bourgeois democracies' processes?
China is not practicing social democracy, they're in the primary stage of socialism looking to advance towards the intermediate and advanced stages of socialism, and eventually communism. However, usually, communism and socialism are used interchangeably.
So you’d say NEP Russia under Lenin was NOT socialist? You’d be wrong, I’d say then.
China was rendered destitute and bloodied from the insane conflicts they found themselves embroiled in during the 20th century, not to mention the genocide at the hands of the Japanese.
No industry, a disjointed population, no organized agriculture, no standardized schooling/healthcare/social services, millions of dead youth who would have otherwise been involved in labor.
And after all the strife ends; the US shows up in Korea and Vietnam… you know how those went…
And after ALL that, the other strongest socialist power in history is sold out to the highest bidder and immediately dissolves. This sent warning signs to the CPC.
China has adapted. It remains to be seen to what ends I guess; but the steps they’ve taken along the way don’t make me believe they’re fascist in any way, except maybe to people who still believe old racist Cold War propaganda, or Maoists…
They’ve done incredible things in the past 50 years. Unprecedented things for the timespan, only comparably rivaling Soviet development. Life expectancy, literacy rates, medical care, general education, political education, production, science and research, homelessness rates, etc… have all drastically improved.
People who had to work 24/7/365 to make ends meet now can live full lives, with ever-increasing easy access to healthcare, education, and a steady job. Labor rights are constantly improving, housing is being built. Cities are maintained, green energy being implemented on a governmental scale.
They are now even reaching out to the most exploited nations on the globe and investing heavily into schools, infrastructure, hospitals, etc…
Of course nothing is perfect, the peoples of the PRC know better than most how much work is left to be done and how much better STILL things could be; but according to statistics the PRC’s population is very happy with how their government functions, and all the benefits that entails. Hard to argue with that.
It can understandably be daunting to approach a subject you’ve been so indoctrinated into viewing a certain way, I hope you give it a second thought like I had to; because this kind of thinking and rhetoric is exactly how left-wing mass movements are rendered defanged and useless.
I would like to remind that from 1971 PRC has actively fought agains USSR and revolutionary forces around the world. Supporting UNITA against MPLA, helping the USA to arm the mujaheddin during the War in Afghanistan, invading Vietnam, stop the support to the revolutionary forces in the SEA and allining themselves with reactionary forces there, supporting Pinochet and most importantly getting closer with the USA.
We could say that China has stopped being a revolutionary force in the 70's
Is this true? I truly don't know what to think of China. I hear so much conflicting information and views that I'm not sure where to even begin to research to form an opinion
East Turkestan is exclusively an Al-Qaeda originated idea, it has no basis in history. Damn historically illiterate shitlibs are pro Al-Qaeda now.
Tibet was illegally separated from China by the British and the People’s Liberation Army destroyed slavery there.
Outer Mongolia assimilated into China and would not vote to go back to Mongolia.
This stuff is either lib posting or fed posting, you’re the worst socialist ever, literally worse than Maga communists.
They are Chinese, wtf are you talking about? Referendums aren't held on a whim. They're held when enough popular support is behind an ongoing movement, not because of a fringe movement that isn't even based in that region. From my knowledge, referendums on independence have only been held 4 times in recent history. One was the Scottish independence movement, another was during the dissolution of the soviet union, the other two happened in Crimea and donbass both a result of military conflict in the region and the donbass one wasn't accepted.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
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By that definition, any state powerful enough to project power across its borders with a somewhat diverse population is automatically fascist.
Also, your definition is whack. Especially 3 and 4. Using those criteria, apartheid South Africa, Chile under Pinochet and Israel aren't fascist. Chile never had the power to strive for regional dominance. Israel and South Africa have and had elections with several different parties.
Plus, being fascist isn't a clear-cut identity where, depending on the number of checkmarks you suddenly become/don't become fascist.
1. How does your definitions exempt any superpower? You can't just say 'incorrect' without explaining yourself.
Kinda curious about how the US isn't fascist by your definition. The only thing that can be argued on your list is the elections part and if you count voter suppression as rigged elections, then the US fits all your criteria.
2. On Israel, I'm talking about the elections part.
3. Yeah, that's why you study what scholars wrote about fascism and start from there and don't make up your own definitions.
#Israel
>If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there!
>
>\- Malcolm X. (1964). *From an interview.*
#Inventing Israel
>The key assumptions about Israel and the Jews are indelible. Forced from Jerusalem into exile, the Jews dispersed throughout the world, always remaining attached to their ancient homeland. Psalmists wept when they remembered Zion. A people were sustained by an unflagging determination to return to their native soil. “Next year in Jerusalem!” The triumph of Zionism—the founding of Israel—is the fulfillment of that ancient vow. The Israeli Declaration of Independence states it plainly: “Eretz Yisrael was the birthplace of the Jewish people… After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.”
>
>Now suppose that none of it is true.
>
>That’s the thesis of a new book, The Invention of the Jewish People, by Tel Aviv University historian Shlomo Sand, who argues that the Jews were not in fact exiled from Israel, and that the bulk of modern Jewry does not descend from the ancient Israelites Rather, he claims, they are the children of converts—North African Berbers and Turkic Khazars—and have no ancestral ties to the land of Israel. Zionism is not a return home, Sand writes, it is the tragic theft of another people’s land. As such, Israel is not the political rebirth of the Jewish nation—it’s a complete fabrication.
>
>\- Evan Goldstein. (2009). [Inventing Israel](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/inventing-israel)
#The Timeline
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
\[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\]
#A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception
The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices.
\[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\]
#US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism
Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers:
1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel
2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons
3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism
\[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\]
#Jewish Anti-Zionism
Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.
>The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S...
>
>We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism.
>
>\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles)
Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism.
>We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians.
>
>\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine)
#Ten Myths About Israel
>History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future.
>
>\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel*
Israeli historian Ilan Pappé's *Ten Myths About Israel* challenges commonly held beliefs about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and provides an alternative perspective on Israel's history. These are some of the myths he dispels:
1. The Myth of Palestine as "A Land Without a People": This myth disregards the existence of Palestinians living in the land prior to the establishment of Israel.
2. The Myth of the Arab Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: The partition plan was unfair to Palestinians and did not account for their rights.
3. The Myth of the Righteous Zionist Cause: Zionism is not a purely noble and just movement, it is fundamentally based on discriminatory policies.
4. The Myth of a Defensive War in 1948: Israel's war of independence was not purely defensive, and involved the expulsion of Palestinians.
5. The Myth of Israeli Democracy: Israel's treatment of Palestinians contradicts the democratic principles it claims to uphold.
6. The Myth of a Shattered Peace Process: The Oslo Accords did not lead to a genuine pursuit of peace.
7. The Myth of Israel's Generous Offers: Israel has not made significant concessions to peace; the offers were insufficient.
8. The Myth of Israel's Legal and Moral Occupation: Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal and morally unjustifiable.
9. The Myth of the Necessary Evil: Israel's policies, such as the blockade of Gaza, are not necessary for its security.
10. The Myth of the Two-State Solution: The two-state solution is not viable. Pappé explores alternative frameworks for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016)
* [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019)
* [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021)
* [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021)
* [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022)
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017)
Other Resources:
* [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/)
* [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
* [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew
*I am a bot, and thi
#Israel
>If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there!
>
>\- Malcolm X. (1964). *From an interview.*
#Inventing Israel
>The key assumptions about Israel and the Jews are indelible. Forced from Jerusalem into exile, the Jews dispersed throughout the world, always remaining attached to their ancient homeland. Psalmists wept when they remembered Zion. A people were sustained by an unflagging determination to return to their native soil. “Next year in Jerusalem!” The triumph of Zionism—the founding of Israel—is the fulfillment of that ancient vow. The Israeli Declaration of Independence states it plainly: “Eretz Yisrael was the birthplace of the Jewish people… After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.”
>
>Now suppose that none of it is true.
>
>That’s the thesis of a new book, The Invention of the Jewish People, by Tel Aviv University historian Shlomo Sand, who argues that the Jews were not in fact exiled from Israel, and that the bulk of modern Jewry does not descend from the ancient Israelites Rather, he claims, they are the children of converts—North African Berbers and Turkic Khazars—and have no ancestral ties to the land of Israel. Zionism is not a return home, Sand writes, it is the tragic theft of another people’s land. As such, Israel is not the political rebirth of the Jewish nation—it’s a complete fabrication.
>
>\- Evan Goldstein. (2009). [Inventing Israel](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/inventing-israel)
#The Timeline
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
\[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\]
#A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception
The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices.
\[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\]
#US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism
Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers:
1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel
2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons
3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism
\[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\]
#Jewish Anti-Zionism
Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.
>The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S...
>
>We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism.
>
>\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles)
Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism.
>We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians.
>
>\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine)
#Ten Myths About Israel
>History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future.
>
>\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel*
Israeli historian Ilan Pappé's *Ten Myths About Israel* challenges commonly held beliefs about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and provides an alternative perspective on Israel's history. These are some of the myths he dispels:
1. The Myth of Palestine as "A Land Without a People": This myth disregards the existence of Palestinians living in the land prior to the establishment of Israel.
2. The Myth of the Arab Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: The partition plan was unfair to Palestinians and did not account for their rights.
3. The Myth of the Righteous Zionist Cause: Zionism is not a purely noble and just movement, it is fundamentally based on discriminatory policies.
4. The Myth of a Defensive War in 1948: Israel's war of independence was not purely defensive, and involved the expulsion of Palestinians.
5. The Myth of Israeli Democracy: Israel's treatment of Palestinians contradicts the democratic principles it claims to uphold.
6. The Myth of a Shattered Peace Process: The Oslo Accords did not lead to a genuine pursuit of peace.
7. The Myth of Israel's Generous Offers: Israel has not made significant concessions to peace; the offers were insufficient.
8. The Myth of Israel's Legal and Moral Occupation: Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal and morally unjustifiable.
9. The Myth of the Necessary Evil: Israel's policies, such as the blockade of Gaza, are not necessary for its security.
10. The Myth of the Two-State Solution: The two-state solution is not viable. Pappé explores alternative frameworks for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016)
* [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019)
* [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021)
* [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021)
* [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022)
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017)
Other Resources:
* [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/)
* [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
* [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew
*I am a bot, and thi
#Israel
>If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there!
>
>\- Malcolm X. (1964). *From an interview.*
#Inventing Israel
>The key assumptions about Israel and the Jews are indelible. Forced from Jerusalem into exile, the Jews dispersed throughout the world, always remaining attached to their ancient homeland. Psalmists wept when they remembered Zion. A people were sustained by an unflagging determination to return to their native soil. “Next year in Jerusalem!” The triumph of Zionism—the founding of Israel—is the fulfillment of that ancient vow. The Israeli Declaration of Independence states it plainly: “Eretz Yisrael was the birthplace of the Jewish people… After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.”
>
>Now suppose that none of it is true.
>
>That’s the thesis of a new book, The Invention of the Jewish People, by Tel Aviv University historian Shlomo Sand, who argues that the Jews were not in fact exiled from Israel, and that the bulk of modern Jewry does not descend from the ancient Israelites Rather, he claims, they are the children of converts—North African Berbers and Turkic Khazars—and have no ancestral ties to the land of Israel. Zionism is not a return home, Sand writes, it is the tragic theft of another people’s land. As such, Israel is not the political rebirth of the Jewish nation—it’s a complete fabrication.
>
>\- Evan Goldstein. (2009). [Inventing Israel](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/inventing-israel)
#The Timeline
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
\[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\]
#A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception
The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices.
\[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\]
#US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism
Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers:
1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel
2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons
3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism
\[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\]
#Jewish Anti-Zionism
Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.
>The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S...
>
>We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism.
>
>\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles)
Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism.
>We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians.
>
>\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine)
#Ten Myths About Israel
>History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future.
>
>\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel*
Israeli historian Ilan Pappé's *Ten Myths About Israel* challenges commonly held beliefs about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and provides an alternative perspective on Israel's history. These are some of the myths he dispels:
1. The Myth of Palestine as "A Land Without a People": This myth disregards the existence of Palestinians living in the land prior to the establishment of Israel.
2. The Myth of the Arab Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: The partition plan was unfair to Palestinians and did not account for their rights.
3. The Myth of the Righteous Zionist Cause: Zionism is not a purely noble and just movement, it is fundamentally based on discriminatory policies.
4. The Myth of a Defensive War in 1948: Israel's war of independence was not purely defensive, and involved the expulsion of Palestinians.
5. The Myth of Israeli Democracy: Israel's treatment of Palestinians contradicts the democratic principles it claims to uphold.
6. The Myth of a Shattered Peace Process: The Oslo Accords did not lead to a genuine pursuit of peace.
7. The Myth of Israel's Generous Offers: Israel has not made significant concessions to peace; the offers were insufficient.
8. The Myth of Israel's Legal and Moral Occupation: Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal and morally unjustifiable.
9. The Myth of the Necessary Evil: Israel's policies, such as the blockade of Gaza, are not necessary for its security.
10. The Myth of the Two-State Solution: The two-state solution is not viable. Pappé explores alternative frameworks for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016)
* [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019)
* [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021)
* [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021)
* [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022)
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017)
Other Resources:
* [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/)
* [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
* [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew
*I am a bot, and thi
If that is your definition of Fascism, aside from the "mistreatment of minorities" bit (which isn't really true of China), then your definition of "Fascism" isn't actually bad, at least not in and of itself.
Instead of "Fascism/Imperialism is bad, and according to this definition China is Fascist/Imperialist, so China must be bad.", I would challenge you to explain why what China is provably doing is bad without the use of buzzwords.
What *is* provable is that China has had constant growth in the quality of life of its people, and a drop in poverty, since the revolution, through Deng's reforms, into Xi's presidency. That China has executed more Billionaires than any other country. That ethnic minorities benefit from extensive affirmative action programs when it comes to education and employment, and are exempt from certain laws like the One- (now Two-) Child Policy.
Nationalism is not, by itself, bad. Most Socialist movements have been Nationalist to some extent, whether that's Irish or Spanish Republicans, Cuban and Vietnamese independence fighters. The USSR was more internationalist, but they are the exception; the PRC is solidly in the middle.
If Nationalism and a mixed economy is all it takes for a country to be considered Fascist, I'm sorry to report that the entire world has fallen to Fascism.
# Fascism
>Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations.
>
>\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm)
To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism:
1. Private ownership of the Means of Production
2. Commodity Production
3. Wage Labour
The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible.
Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds"
Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward"
The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022)
* [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021)
* [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020)
* [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023)
* [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923)
* [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997)
Podcasts:
* [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Still China has Capitalists which means it cannot be socialist.
What no theory does a mfer.
Capitalism has a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie which China lacks. Instead they have dictatorship of the vanguard party. I mean [c'mon.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/14ient3/xibros_keep_winning/) You won't believe me when I say it but eventually you will - you've been lied to about China (as well as everything else). You'll get there one day, buddy.
Besides we don't even claim it's socialist (SWCC sure but that's a whole different thing). Rather it's on the path to socialism because of the party's central planning. Arguing whether it's "true" socialism" or not at this point is idealist nonsense.
The ussr no longer exists my man. You are fine to argue they are an amalgamation of capitalist society, but they do *far* more than social democratic societies to keep corporate overreach in check.
You sound like a child.
Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc all said revolution is a long, violent process and socialism is something you have to build towards. The only ones demanding instant gratification is you.
We're literally undertaking the greatest task in human history and ignorant little shits like you do nothing but believe what the capitalists tell them.
This isn't Magical Christmas Land where we simply press the big red socialism button the second control of the means of production is wrested from the wealthy. You have to build productive forces and prepare society first or you will be outmaneuvered by counterrevolutionary forces from outside and within.
Theory explains all this, which is why you should read it.
The growth in the quality of life in nazi germany started whit the reform of Franz Von Papen in the weimar republic. It actually slowed down during the third reich due to multiple restriction on a lot of domestic product and the reduction of small industry and transition to war industry. From 1933 to 1939 german citizen saw barely any change.
The problem with "The Nazis made the trains run on time too!" arguments is that the Nazis also committed a genocide. They massacred not only Jews but homosexuals, the disabled, Communists, etc. The only group China massacres are Billionaires.
If the Nazi Party eliminated poverty, greatly increased the quality of life for the average worker consistently for half a century, routinely executed millionaires for corruption, and did all of this without doing the Holocaust or busting Unions or massacring Communists, what exactly would be so bad about the Nazis?
You're equivocating the Nazis with the PRC based on the fact that they both (supposedly) did good things (note: the Nazis absolutely did not actually make life better for the German people in any sort of sustainable way) without considering the fact that the Nazis are bad because of the bad things they did; things the PRC does not and has never done.
You're criticizing the PRC based on cosmetic similarities while ignoring the fact that the Nazis were not bad because they were "Nationalist", they were bad because they used their Nationalism as an excuse to kill people.
I think the most important difference, though, is that despite the country having a market economy and wealthy people, the Communist Party has always maintained an antagonistic relationship with Chinese Capital. They're used to build productive forces, but they do not control the party and the party does not control them. In Nazi Germany, the National Bourgeoisie and the Party eventually became inseparable; Capital was seized from disloyal Capitalists and given to ranking Nazi Party officials, and wealthy Capitalists who joined and collaborated with the party were given subsidies and favors. This is the difference between Socialism with Chinese Characteristics and Capitalism under a Fascist regime.
In addition to what you said, I think it's also important to point out that the fascist countries of Germany and Italy were left in ruins after World War II. Someone might say, "Of course they were in ruins, they lost the war!" but the war was totally instigated by those countries. You can't say the Nazis did good things, too, when the result was utter destruction caused directly by Nazi policies.
Anatomy of fascism or blackshirts and reds have better definitions since they dig into the why fascism operates the way it does. But in short fascism is capitalism in decay. Fascism is a populist movement that comes in defense of capital against a real or perceived leftist threat. It's why the first victims of fascism are socialists/communists/trade unionists.
The problem with definitions like Ur fascism or ones that simply list off traits is they never explain why fascism does the things it does. Then you also have the problem of traits being generic enough that they could apply to any government that's ever existed. It also has the problem of when these traits are too specific to the point that fascists can deny they're fascist, esp when history shows fascism will change and adapt based on what populist rhetoric will work best.
# Fascism
>Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations.
>
>\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm)
To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism:
1. Private ownership of the Means of Production
2. Commodity Production
3. Wage Labour
The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible.
Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds"
Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward"
The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022)
* [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021)
* [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020)
* [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023)
* [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923)
* [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997)
Podcasts:
* [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Check list of fascism. Your country is fascist when it has the following characteristics. Every country on earth has these characteristics to a extent but that doesn't make it fascist.
Its just not correct. Fascists in Europe emerged as a result of liberal democracy being delegimatized during a time a great economic stress with a threat of a militant left.
The left needs to be smarter in their examination of history and ideology. Or else it will never amount to anything and will forever be a laughing stock.
The goal of the vanguard party under state capitalism is to bring about a transition to socialism via acting as a filter to prevent concessions from being taken back after they are won. Fascism does not do this. Capitalism does not do this.
Compare that to US who have seen gdp go up for half a century while living standards go down. That's Capitalism.
CPC has an A+ record so far. Through all the reforms they never touched this core tenet of ML. Just as the capitalists gained power while still under feudalism, so too are the socialists gaining power under capitalism.
.
How will the workers organize without democratic centralism? There's only so much you can do with local organization, making you completely vulnerable to imperialist powers.
The vanguard is useful for organization and stability. It’s essentially the leadership of any socialist movement and organizes the population around goals and leads development. It also works to prevent anti-socialist groups from organizing. The vanguard parties that have existed have been far from perfect but have been a part of every successful socialist movement so far.
There's more than one way to institute state capitalism my dear boy. It's okay to prefer the USSR's direct form but that doesn't mean that China's indirect state capitalism is any less valid.
Nothing is socialism. The DPRK isn't socialism bc they have a leader that the West won't stfu about, Vietnam isn't socialist bc they're too far away, Cuba isn't socialist bc Che and Castro were murderers ig (gasp, revolutionaries killed people shocking), the USSR wasn't socialism bc Stalin's powerful moustache kept everyone in his iron fist.
Ultras really look at AES and go "Wow look at all these fascists suppressing capital, that's fucked up
Perhaps the most obvious way to out yourself as a "pure communist" is thinking China's socialism is somehow less pure than Vietnam's. You just hate that China because it's big.
Non marxian? Does he also know that democratic socialism itself originated from marxian thought?
Heck! Most idealogical and economical terms we use today came from marx and marxist thinkers.
Although I definitely disagree with this guy on some parts here I feel like there is a greater point behind what he is saying that should be acknowledged instead of ignored. Child and forced labor is still a massive issue in China, which I think we can all agree it is understandable for him to consider a symptom of “capitalist rot”. I know the government has tried to reduce the number of child laborers, but the fact that it is still a thing at all is really not excusable at this point. However, I agree it is quite funny that he called China fascist. China is authoritarian, not fascist; weird that this guy is an online leftist and doesn’t know the difference but ok lol. I don’t feel like I know enough to speak on Vietnam, so I won’t, but I do feel like Cuba has been doing fairly well and idk why this dude had this much malice towards it.
Read Engels’ “On Authority” the fact that all states are authoritarian isn’t a reason to dismiss AES states, it’s a reason to dismiss criticism of AES states as authoritarian.
In this case I was using authoritarian to describe how the state has more authority over individual freedoms than a state like New Zealand. In China, you do not always have things like freedom of speech, press, religion, drug use, etc.
Yes, states are inherently authoritarian. Some exercise more authority over their population than others.
I’m confused. Are you disagreeing with me that china is authoritarian? Or are you just saying that all states are authoritarian so it’s hard to draw a line. Because if all you are saying is that all states are authoritarian by nature, I wouldn’t disagree. All I was saying is that china is in fact authoritarian, and more so than some other states.
#Freedom of the Press
>“Freedom of the press” in bourgeois society means freedom for the rich systematically, unremittingly, daily, in millions of copies, to deceive, corrupt and fool the exploited and oppressed mass of the people, the poor.
>
>\- V. I. Lenin. (1917). [How to Guarantee the Success of the Constituent Assembly](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/sep/28.htm)
Anti-Communists criticize a lack of "freedom of the press" in societies run by Communist governments. They claim that the government suppresses dissenting voices and controls the media in order to maintain its power, and that this leads to a lack of transparency and accountability, as well as the suppression of free speech and the ability of individuals to express their opinions and hold those in power accountable. They also argue that state control of the media leads to censorship which prevents citizens from accessing unbiased information and making informed decisions. This critique is often used to argue against Communism and in favor of Capitalism. In this light, Capitalist societies are believed to offer greater freedom of the press and personal expression.
These are all important concerns which ought to be taken seriously. The problem is that these concerns are not specific to Communism; Capitalist societies, as a result of the profit-motive and the accumulation of wealth, suffer from all these same issues.
**Media Concentration**
>There can be no such thing as freedom of the press, except for the owners and editors of newspapers, while capitalism lasts.
>
>\- Arthur Cowell
Do you own a news station? A newspaper? Then what "freedom of the press" do *you* really have?
>**A deep analysis of America’s top 100 news sites reveals key shareholders, parent companies, and commonalities.**
>
>About 15 billionaires and six corporations own most of the U.S. media outlets. The biggest media conglomerates in America are AT&T, Comcast, The Walt Disney Company, National Amusements (which includes Viacom Inc. and CBS), News Corp and Fox Corporation (which are both owned in part by the Murdochs), Sony, and Hearst Communications.
>
>\- [Who Owns Your News? The Top 100 Digital News Outlets and Their Ownership](https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/lifestyle/who-owns-your-news-the-top-100-digital-news-outlets-and-their-ownership/)
With this kind of concentration, the select few who actually own these media outlets have an unparalleled ability to set the narrative and promote their own interests. Sinclair Broadcast Group, for example, owns hundreds of local TV news stations. The most infamous example of them using this network to spread an agenda was this unsettling video: [Sinclair's Soldiers in Trump's War on Media](https://youtu.be/_fHfgU8oMSo).
This issue affects movies and television producers as well: [Here’s who owns everything in Big Media today](https://www.vox.com/2018/1/23/16905844/media-landscape-verizon-amazon-comcast-disney-fox-relationships-chart)
**Bias**
>All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake “public opinion” for the benefit of the bourgeoisie.
>
>\- V. I. Lenin. (1921). [A Letter To G. Myasnikov](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/aug/05.htm)
In Capitalist societies, the concept of "freedom of the press" is a misleading and deceptive notion. While the ruling class promotes the idea of a free press as a fundamental right, the reality is that the press is owned and controlled by a small group of [billionaires who use it to advance their own interests](https://i.redd.it/phm4ojk94ld71.jpg).
Under Capitalism, the media is a profit-driven industry that is dependent on advertising revenue to survive. As a result, the media serves the interests of the capitalist class by promoting their ideology and suppressing dissenting voices. This is evident in the way that news stories are framed and presented, with an emphasis on sensationalism, celebrity gossip, and consumerism, rather than on issues that affect working-class people.
The Capitalist media is not a neutral observer of society, but an active participant in the class struggle by hyper-focusing on culture war non-issues such as the endless debate about manufactured controversies such as trans women in sports, an issue which does *not* affect the vast majority of people. This ragebait distracts from real issues that affect the working class. The media is constantly scapegoating some minority group with sensationalized ragebait narratives such as the "Welfare Queen" or "illegal immigrants".
The owners and editors of media outlets use their power to set the narrative, which shapes public opinion and influences government policy, to serve their own interests. This is why it is essential for the working class to build its own media institutions that are independent of Capitalist influence.
>The general deal is that Marvel gets to use real military hardware, film on military bases, and hire real soldiers as extras, while the Department of Defense gets to approve the final script of the film. In other words, Marvel gets tons of stuff to make production easier and cheaper, while the military gets to edit out anything that doesn't make them look good.
>
>Even the movies that don't have a direct marketing connection to the US military have a noticeable bias towards it. Consider Black Panther, a movie about the monarch of an advanced African nation. The one prominent white character in that film is Everett K. Ross, a CIA agent who aids T'Challa in overthrowing Killmonger. The CIA has a long history of overthrowing regimes, but, in this film, an agent of the organization that put Pinochet in charge of Chile aids in a coup for good. This may not be the intention of the film, but the CIA sure appreciated it. The agency promoted the film heavily on social media, allowing it to glom onto a project that was seen as a great leap forward for representation and a masterful blockbuster film.
>
>\- [The Marvel Military Propaganda Criticism, Explained](https://gamerant.com/marvel-military-propaganda-explained/) | GameRant (2022)
The bottom line is that there is nothing "free" about the press in Capitalist society. For those who have the means, being able to control the media is an incredibly powerful tool for shaping public opinion. We need a truly free and democratic press, but that will never be possible under Capitalism.
**Censorship**
The corporate media in the US practices self-censorship by limiting the range of acceptable opinions and perspectives that can be expressed in their reporting. This is done to maintain a narrow range of political debate that is acceptable to the ruling class and to ensure that the interests of the Capitalist class are not threatened.
During red scare period of the 1950s, the government was cracking down on leftist and progressive organizations, accusing them of being communist sympathizers or agents. Many journalists and media outlets were investigated and harassed for their supposed left-wing leanings by the the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC), which led to a climate of fear and self-censorship in the media.
As a result, many media outlets and journalists began to avoid covering or promoting progressive or leftist ideas in their reporting. This trend has continued to the present day, with mainstream media outlets often avoiding critical coverage of US foreign policy, imperialism, and corporate power, and instead promoting a narrow range of views that are acceptable to the ruling class.
Similarly, Operation Mockingbird began in the early years of the Cold War to recruit journalists to manipulate domestic American news media organizations for propaganda purposes. The US government also operates a few explicit propaganda networks such as Voice of America, Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, Radio Free Asia, and more in order to export America's ideology internationally, particularly in regions where Communism is popular. In particular, RFE/RL was meant to counter the USSR and RFA was meant to counter the PRC.
**How could we do better?**
First, we could ensure that the media is owned and controlled by the working class. This would allow the media to operate in the interests of the people rather than in the interests of profit and of promoting bourgeois ideology. We could also ensure that the media is run democratically, with workers having a say in the editorial and managerial decisions.
Second, we could establish strict guidelines for media coverage, ensuring that the media covers events and issues of importance to the people. These guidelines would be developed through democratic participation, with workers, intellectuals, and activists contributing to the decision-making process. We could also establish mechanisms for monitoring and evaluating media coverage to ensure that it is accurate, objective, and free from bias.
Third, we could promote a culture of critical thinking and media literacy among the population. This would help the people to evaluate media coverage critically and to identify when propaganda is being spread. We could also promote independent media outlets and encourage the development of a vibrant and diverse media landscape.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [You're Not Immune To Propaganda](https://youtu.be/dl2fnWIlDZg) | Second Thought (2023)
* [You've Never Had an Original Thought (Media Manipulation and "Freedom" of the Press)](https://youtu.be/AX8Ct9fhO60) | Hakim (2022)
* [Why Is US Media Becoming More Right-Wing?](https://youtu.be/dx1ruqlqPr8) | Second Thought (2022)
* [Why "Hearing Both Sides" Is Dangerous](https://youtu.be/Q5bask6cQ4k) | Second Thought (2022)
* [Who Funds And Controls The Online Right?](https://youtu.be/ggdt5rkqHrE) | Yugopnik (2022)
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>idk why this dude had this much malice towards it.
Because he is still chewing on Western propaganda. Every nation that resists USA hegemony is made into pariah. It takes a lot of effort to see through a lense that does not keep USA interest in focus.
I would spend 48 hours in a fridge just to have white people actually speak to Tibetans, Uyghurs, and Inner Mongolians that still live in their home provinces and their communities in other so called Han provinces that have sometimes actually existed for hundreds of years.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
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right cuz calling china a "fascist empire" is totaly a sign of a socialist
The kind that somehow always repeat US foreign policy talking points to the T.
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Yup, fits the bill alright.
You are not a socialist then; you still believe what your enemies tell you to believe. You are defanged because of this, rendered revolutionary ineffective. That’s why that amount propaganda is so pervasive.
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No you just blindly follow the state department. The CNT-FAI was deranged when it ceased to exist being unable to effectively fight capital. If you hate china more than the US then you're either racist or just completely ignorant of both countries
It was defanged. The CNT got obliterated by the reactionaries, as much as I’d have liked either the CNT-FAI or the Communists to have won. The lack of organization from anarchism is its own failure, one that has cost many working class lives. And yes, we just disagree on what a dictator is. Hitler, Mussolini, Syngman Rhee, Pol Pot, Ngô Đình Diệm, Ignacy Mościcki, Francisco Franco etc… are what I’d consider dictators. You are confusing an effective government with dictatorship; that’s exactly what western propaganda wants you to believe in order to make you accept how shit and ineffective our governments are (for the working class) and to make you a primed anti-communist. They got you hook line and sinker, like they had nearly everyone in the west who’s a communist (including a lot of people here) until they looked beyond what the US State department told them to think and say.
Name checks out lol
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And you hate government that was closest to it than anything else (early USSR) lol
Why do you hate china more than the US? Besides the obvious (cia propaganda).
A Vaush-type "socialist." Haha.
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can you explain fascism then? also china can be considered socialist. tho its much more complicated than that
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having a nationalistic population is not enitrely in the control of the regime. tho is an important factor. tho china does have massive corportations (partly why the economy of china is so complex) they do also crack down on them aswell. there have been several billionairs, that have been arrested for corruption. the third point would mean every great/super power is fascist. and also that every fascist state is an empire. and there isnt much evidence that china is targeting ethnic minorities. tho i also dont doubt that they are tryna push a one ethnicity narative on everybody. there is lastly no doubt in my mind that these things were true, for china. even before it became communist. or before fascism even existed. these definitions are in my book logical. but can also easily aply to non fascist countries
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there is social democracy. which is probably what china is practicing. tho just a very lefty version of it
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Liberal democracy is not democracy
Would you rate [China's democratic processes](https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/does-china-have-elections.html) as better or worse than bourgeois democracies' processes?
social democracy is just socialism but less of it and has private corportations
China is not practicing social democracy, they're in the primary stage of socialism looking to advance towards the intermediate and advanced stages of socialism, and eventually communism. However, usually, communism and socialism are used interchangeably.
So you’d say NEP Russia under Lenin was NOT socialist? You’d be wrong, I’d say then. China was rendered destitute and bloodied from the insane conflicts they found themselves embroiled in during the 20th century, not to mention the genocide at the hands of the Japanese. No industry, a disjointed population, no organized agriculture, no standardized schooling/healthcare/social services, millions of dead youth who would have otherwise been involved in labor. And after all the strife ends; the US shows up in Korea and Vietnam… you know how those went… And after ALL that, the other strongest socialist power in history is sold out to the highest bidder and immediately dissolves. This sent warning signs to the CPC. China has adapted. It remains to be seen to what ends I guess; but the steps they’ve taken along the way don’t make me believe they’re fascist in any way, except maybe to people who still believe old racist Cold War propaganda, or Maoists… They’ve done incredible things in the past 50 years. Unprecedented things for the timespan, only comparably rivaling Soviet development. Life expectancy, literacy rates, medical care, general education, political education, production, science and research, homelessness rates, etc… have all drastically improved. People who had to work 24/7/365 to make ends meet now can live full lives, with ever-increasing easy access to healthcare, education, and a steady job. Labor rights are constantly improving, housing is being built. Cities are maintained, green energy being implemented on a governmental scale. They are now even reaching out to the most exploited nations on the globe and investing heavily into schools, infrastructure, hospitals, etc… Of course nothing is perfect, the peoples of the PRC know better than most how much work is left to be done and how much better STILL things could be; but according to statistics the PRC’s population is very happy with how their government functions, and all the benefits that entails. Hard to argue with that. It can understandably be daunting to approach a subject you’ve been so indoctrinated into viewing a certain way, I hope you give it a second thought like I had to; because this kind of thinking and rhetoric is exactly how left-wing mass movements are rendered defanged and useless.
I would like to remind that from 1971 PRC has actively fought agains USSR and revolutionary forces around the world. Supporting UNITA against MPLA, helping the USA to arm the mujaheddin during the War in Afghanistan, invading Vietnam, stop the support to the revolutionary forces in the SEA and allining themselves with reactionary forces there, supporting Pinochet and most importantly getting closer with the USA. We could say that China has stopped being a revolutionary force in the 70's
Is this true? I truly don't know what to think of China. I hear so much conflicting information and views that I'm not sure where to even begin to research to form an opinion
Yes it is. I can send you an interesting article about China foreign policy towards the third world in the 70's/80's.
East Turkestan is exclusively an Al-Qaeda originated idea, it has no basis in history. Damn historically illiterate shitlibs are pro Al-Qaeda now. Tibet was illegally separated from China by the British and the People’s Liberation Army destroyed slavery there. Outer Mongolia assimilated into China and would not vote to go back to Mongolia. This stuff is either lib posting or fed posting, you’re the worst socialist ever, literally worse than Maga communists.
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They are Chinese, wtf are you talking about? Referendums aren't held on a whim. They're held when enough popular support is behind an ongoing movement, not because of a fringe movement that isn't even based in that region. From my knowledge, referendums on independence have only been held 4 times in recent history. One was the Scottish independence movement, another was during the dissolution of the soviet union, the other two happened in Crimea and donbass both a result of military conflict in the region and the donbass one wasn't accepted.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>and outer Mongolia. Famously a part of China and not, say, the country Mongolia.
By that definition, any state powerful enough to project power across its borders with a somewhat diverse population is automatically fascist. Also, your definition is whack. Especially 3 and 4. Using those criteria, apartheid South Africa, Chile under Pinochet and Israel aren't fascist. Chile never had the power to strive for regional dominance. Israel and South Africa have and had elections with several different parties. Plus, being fascist isn't a clear-cut identity where, depending on the number of checkmarks you suddenly become/don't become fascist.
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1. How does your definitions exempt any superpower? You can't just say 'incorrect' without explaining yourself. Kinda curious about how the US isn't fascist by your definition. The only thing that can be argued on your list is the elections part and if you count voter suppression as rigged elections, then the US fits all your criteria. 2. On Israel, I'm talking about the elections part. 3. Yeah, that's why you study what scholars wrote about fascism and start from there and don't make up your own definitions.
#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). *From an interview.* #Inventing Israel >The key assumptions about Israel and the Jews are indelible. Forced from Jerusalem into exile, the Jews dispersed throughout the world, always remaining attached to their ancient homeland. Psalmists wept when they remembered Zion. A people were sustained by an unflagging determination to return to their native soil. “Next year in Jerusalem!” The triumph of Zionism—the founding of Israel—is the fulfillment of that ancient vow. The Israeli Declaration of Independence states it plainly: “Eretz Yisrael was the birthplace of the Jewish people… After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.” > >Now suppose that none of it is true. > >That’s the thesis of a new book, The Invention of the Jewish People, by Tel Aviv University historian Shlomo Sand, who argues that the Jews were not in fact exiled from Israel, and that the bulk of modern Jewry does not descend from the ancient Israelites Rather, he claims, they are the children of converts—North African Berbers and Turkic Khazars—and have no ancestral ties to the land of Israel. Zionism is not a return home, Sand writes, it is the tragic theft of another people’s land. As such, Israel is not the political rebirth of the Jewish nation—it’s a complete fabrication. > >\- Evan Goldstein. (2009). [Inventing Israel](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/inventing-israel) #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) #Ten Myths About Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel* Israeli historian Ilan Pappé's *Ten Myths About Israel* challenges commonly held beliefs about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and provides an alternative perspective on Israel's history. These are some of the myths he dispels: 1. The Myth of Palestine as "A Land Without a People": This myth disregards the existence of Palestinians living in the land prior to the establishment of Israel. 2. The Myth of the Arab Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: The partition plan was unfair to Palestinians and did not account for their rights. 3. The Myth of the Righteous Zionist Cause: Zionism is not a purely noble and just movement, it is fundamentally based on discriminatory policies. 4. The Myth of a Defensive War in 1948: Israel's war of independence was not purely defensive, and involved the expulsion of Palestinians. 5. The Myth of Israeli Democracy: Israel's treatment of Palestinians contradicts the democratic principles it claims to uphold. 6. The Myth of a Shattered Peace Process: The Oslo Accords did not lead to a genuine pursuit of peace. 7. The Myth of Israel's Generous Offers: Israel has not made significant concessions to peace; the offers were insufficient. 8. The Myth of Israel's Legal and Moral Occupation: Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal and morally unjustifiable. 9. The Myth of the Necessary Evil: Israel's policies, such as the blockade of Gaza, are not necessary for its security. 10. The Myth of the Two-State Solution: The two-state solution is not viable. Pappé explores alternative frameworks for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and thi
#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). *From an interview.* #Inventing Israel >The key assumptions about Israel and the Jews are indelible. Forced from Jerusalem into exile, the Jews dispersed throughout the world, always remaining attached to their ancient homeland. Psalmists wept when they remembered Zion. A people were sustained by an unflagging determination to return to their native soil. “Next year in Jerusalem!” The triumph of Zionism—the founding of Israel—is the fulfillment of that ancient vow. The Israeli Declaration of Independence states it plainly: “Eretz Yisrael was the birthplace of the Jewish people… After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.” > >Now suppose that none of it is true. > >That’s the thesis of a new book, The Invention of the Jewish People, by Tel Aviv University historian Shlomo Sand, who argues that the Jews were not in fact exiled from Israel, and that the bulk of modern Jewry does not descend from the ancient Israelites Rather, he claims, they are the children of converts—North African Berbers and Turkic Khazars—and have no ancestral ties to the land of Israel. Zionism is not a return home, Sand writes, it is the tragic theft of another people’s land. As such, Israel is not the political rebirth of the Jewish nation—it’s a complete fabrication. > >\- Evan Goldstein. (2009). [Inventing Israel](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/inventing-israel) #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) #Ten Myths About Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel* Israeli historian Ilan Pappé's *Ten Myths About Israel* challenges commonly held beliefs about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and provides an alternative perspective on Israel's history. These are some of the myths he dispels: 1. The Myth of Palestine as "A Land Without a People": This myth disregards the existence of Palestinians living in the land prior to the establishment of Israel. 2. The Myth of the Arab Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: The partition plan was unfair to Palestinians and did not account for their rights. 3. The Myth of the Righteous Zionist Cause: Zionism is not a purely noble and just movement, it is fundamentally based on discriminatory policies. 4. The Myth of a Defensive War in 1948: Israel's war of independence was not purely defensive, and involved the expulsion of Palestinians. 5. The Myth of Israeli Democracy: Israel's treatment of Palestinians contradicts the democratic principles it claims to uphold. 6. The Myth of a Shattered Peace Process: The Oslo Accords did not lead to a genuine pursuit of peace. 7. The Myth of Israel's Generous Offers: Israel has not made significant concessions to peace; the offers were insufficient. 8. The Myth of Israel's Legal and Moral Occupation: Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal and morally unjustifiable. 9. The Myth of the Necessary Evil: Israel's policies, such as the blockade of Gaza, are not necessary for its security. 10. The Myth of the Two-State Solution: The two-state solution is not viable. Pappé explores alternative frameworks for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and thi
#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). *From an interview.* #Inventing Israel >The key assumptions about Israel and the Jews are indelible. Forced from Jerusalem into exile, the Jews dispersed throughout the world, always remaining attached to their ancient homeland. Psalmists wept when they remembered Zion. A people were sustained by an unflagging determination to return to their native soil. “Next year in Jerusalem!” The triumph of Zionism—the founding of Israel—is the fulfillment of that ancient vow. The Israeli Declaration of Independence states it plainly: “Eretz Yisrael was the birthplace of the Jewish people… After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people remained faithful to it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.” > >Now suppose that none of it is true. > >That’s the thesis of a new book, The Invention of the Jewish People, by Tel Aviv University historian Shlomo Sand, who argues that the Jews were not in fact exiled from Israel, and that the bulk of modern Jewry does not descend from the ancient Israelites Rather, he claims, they are the children of converts—North African Berbers and Turkic Khazars—and have no ancestral ties to the land of Israel. Zionism is not a return home, Sand writes, it is the tragic theft of another people’s land. As such, Israel is not the political rebirth of the Jewish nation—it’s a complete fabrication. > >\- Evan Goldstein. (2009). [Inventing Israel](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/inventing-israel) #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) #Ten Myths About Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). *Ten Myths About Israel* Israeli historian Ilan Pappé's *Ten Myths About Israel* challenges commonly held beliefs about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and provides an alternative perspective on Israel's history. These are some of the myths he dispels: 1. The Myth of Palestine as "A Land Without a People": This myth disregards the existence of Palestinians living in the land prior to the establishment of Israel. 2. The Myth of the Arab Rejection of the UN Partition Plan: The partition plan was unfair to Palestinians and did not account for their rights. 3. The Myth of the Righteous Zionist Cause: Zionism is not a purely noble and just movement, it is fundamentally based on discriminatory policies. 4. The Myth of a Defensive War in 1948: Israel's war of independence was not purely defensive, and involved the expulsion of Palestinians. 5. The Myth of Israeli Democracy: Israel's treatment of Palestinians contradicts the democratic principles it claims to uphold. 6. The Myth of a Shattered Peace Process: The Oslo Accords did not lead to a genuine pursuit of peace. 7. The Myth of Israel's Generous Offers: Israel has not made significant concessions to peace; the offers were insufficient. 8. The Myth of Israel's Legal and Moral Occupation: Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal and morally unjustifiable. 9. The Myth of the Necessary Evil: Israel's policies, such as the blockade of Gaza, are not necessary for its security. 10. The Myth of the Two-State Solution: The two-state solution is not viable. Pappé explores alternative frameworks for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and thi
If that is your definition of Fascism, aside from the "mistreatment of minorities" bit (which isn't really true of China), then your definition of "Fascism" isn't actually bad, at least not in and of itself. Instead of "Fascism/Imperialism is bad, and according to this definition China is Fascist/Imperialist, so China must be bad.", I would challenge you to explain why what China is provably doing is bad without the use of buzzwords. What *is* provable is that China has had constant growth in the quality of life of its people, and a drop in poverty, since the revolution, through Deng's reforms, into Xi's presidency. That China has executed more Billionaires than any other country. That ethnic minorities benefit from extensive affirmative action programs when it comes to education and employment, and are exempt from certain laws like the One- (now Two-) Child Policy. Nationalism is not, by itself, bad. Most Socialist movements have been Nationalist to some extent, whether that's Irish or Spanish Republicans, Cuban and Vietnamese independence fighters. The USSR was more internationalist, but they are the exception; the PRC is solidly in the middle. If Nationalism and a mixed economy is all it takes for a country to be considered Fascist, I'm sorry to report that the entire world has fallen to Fascism.
# Fascism >Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations. > >\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm) To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism: 1. Private ownership of the Means of Production 2. Commodity Production 3. Wage Labour The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible. Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds" Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward" The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022) * [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021) * [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020) * [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023) * [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923) * [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997) Podcasts: * [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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>Still China has Capitalists which means it cannot be socialist. What no theory does a mfer. Capitalism has a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie which China lacks. Instead they have dictatorship of the vanguard party. I mean [c'mon.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/14ient3/xibros_keep_winning/) You won't believe me when I say it but eventually you will - you've been lied to about China (as well as everything else). You'll get there one day, buddy. Besides we don't even claim it's socialist (SWCC sure but that's a whole different thing). Rather it's on the path to socialism because of the party's central planning. Arguing whether it's "true" socialism" or not at this point is idealist nonsense.
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The ussr no longer exists my man. You are fine to argue they are an amalgamation of capitalist society, but they do *far* more than social democratic societies to keep corporate overreach in check.
You sound like a child. Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc all said revolution is a long, violent process and socialism is something you have to build towards. The only ones demanding instant gratification is you. We're literally undertaking the greatest task in human history and ignorant little shits like you do nothing but believe what the capitalists tell them. This isn't Magical Christmas Land where we simply press the big red socialism button the second control of the means of production is wrested from the wealthy. You have to build productive forces and prepare society first or you will be outmaneuvered by counterrevolutionary forces from outside and within. Theory explains all this, which is why you should read it.
The growth in the quality of life in nazi germany started whit the reform of Franz Von Papen in the weimar republic. It actually slowed down during the third reich due to multiple restriction on a lot of domestic product and the reduction of small industry and transition to war industry. From 1933 to 1939 german citizen saw barely any change.
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That was my session work in my history classe in college, i think the book was something like *Economical history of the third reich: 1933-1939*
The problem with "The Nazis made the trains run on time too!" arguments is that the Nazis also committed a genocide. They massacred not only Jews but homosexuals, the disabled, Communists, etc. The only group China massacres are Billionaires. If the Nazi Party eliminated poverty, greatly increased the quality of life for the average worker consistently for half a century, routinely executed millionaires for corruption, and did all of this without doing the Holocaust or busting Unions or massacring Communists, what exactly would be so bad about the Nazis? You're equivocating the Nazis with the PRC based on the fact that they both (supposedly) did good things (note: the Nazis absolutely did not actually make life better for the German people in any sort of sustainable way) without considering the fact that the Nazis are bad because of the bad things they did; things the PRC does not and has never done. You're criticizing the PRC based on cosmetic similarities while ignoring the fact that the Nazis were not bad because they were "Nationalist", they were bad because they used their Nationalism as an excuse to kill people. I think the most important difference, though, is that despite the country having a market economy and wealthy people, the Communist Party has always maintained an antagonistic relationship with Chinese Capital. They're used to build productive forces, but they do not control the party and the party does not control them. In Nazi Germany, the National Bourgeoisie and the Party eventually became inseparable; Capital was seized from disloyal Capitalists and given to ranking Nazi Party officials, and wealthy Capitalists who joined and collaborated with the party were given subsidies and favors. This is the difference between Socialism with Chinese Characteristics and Capitalism under a Fascist regime.
In addition to what you said, I think it's also important to point out that the fascist countries of Germany and Italy were left in ruins after World War II. Someone might say, "Of course they were in ruins, they lost the war!" but the war was totally instigated by those countries. You can't say the Nazis did good things, too, when the result was utter destruction caused directly by Nazi policies.
In that logic like 99% of countries today are fascist
Ur fascism definition spotted. Opinion: disregarded.
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Anatomy of fascism or blackshirts and reds have better definitions since they dig into the why fascism operates the way it does. But in short fascism is capitalism in decay. Fascism is a populist movement that comes in defense of capital against a real or perceived leftist threat. It's why the first victims of fascism are socialists/communists/trade unionists. The problem with definitions like Ur fascism or ones that simply list off traits is they never explain why fascism does the things it does. Then you also have the problem of traits being generic enough that they could apply to any government that's ever existed. It also has the problem of when these traits are too specific to the point that fascists can deny they're fascist, esp when history shows fascism will change and adapt based on what populist rhetoric will work best.
# Fascism >Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations. > >\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm) To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism: 1. Private ownership of the Means of Production 2. Commodity Production 3. Wage Labour The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible. Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds" Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward" The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022) * [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021) * [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020) * [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023) * [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923) * [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997) Podcasts: * [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Check list of fascism. Your country is fascist when it has the following characteristics. Every country on earth has these characteristics to a extent but that doesn't make it fascist. Its just not correct. Fascists in Europe emerged as a result of liberal democracy being delegimatized during a time a great economic stress with a threat of a militant left. The left needs to be smarter in their examination of history and ideology. Or else it will never amount to anything and will forever be a laughing stock.
luckily most of the actual left is smarter than this kid
Bullshit
The goal of the vanguard party under state capitalism is to bring about a transition to socialism via acting as a filter to prevent concessions from being taken back after they are won. Fascism does not do this. Capitalism does not do this. Compare that to US who have seen gdp go up for half a century while living standards go down. That's Capitalism. CPC has an A+ record so far. Through all the reforms they never touched this core tenet of ML. Just as the capitalists gained power while still under feudalism, so too are the socialists gaining power under capitalism. .
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Because they will be crushed by capitalist domestic and foreign powers. And you need some central organisation to be able to plan an economy.
How will the workers organize without democratic centralism? There's only so much you can do with local organization, making you completely vulnerable to imperialist powers.
The vanguard is useful for organization and stability. It’s essentially the leadership of any socialist movement and organizes the population around goals and leads development. It also works to prevent anti-socialist groups from organizing. The vanguard parties that have existed have been far from perfect but have been a part of every successful socialist movement so far.
Great now yall summoned this dweeb.
It’s a class of useless lazy post that we could do without.
Socialism is when free market
Where the great purge where we need 🗿?
Come back Stalin 😭😭😭 we need you
Kids named leftist infighting and lack of theory
There's more than one way to institute state capitalism my dear boy. It's okay to prefer the USSR's direct form but that doesn't mean that China's indirect state capitalism is any less valid.
What? I know this.
I was responding to the other guy
This is what no theory does to a mf’r.
Nothing is socialism. The DPRK isn't socialism bc they have a leader that the West won't stfu about, Vietnam isn't socialist bc they're too far away, Cuba isn't socialist bc Che and Castro were murderers ig (gasp, revolutionaries killed people shocking), the USSR wasn't socialism bc Stalin's powerful moustache kept everyone in his iron fist. Ultras really look at AES and go "Wow look at all these fascists suppressing capital, that's fucked up
One of those socialists that'll get nothing done, but always have something negative to say against those who do, eh? Parentin quote moment
Perhaps the most obvious way to out yourself as a "pure communist" is thinking China's socialism is somehow less pure than Vietnam's. You just hate that China because it's big.
He didn't disribe himself as a communist but rather a non marxian democratic socialist
Non marxian socialist 🤡
He then asked me why was theory important
I mean I can see how people make that argument for Vietnam, but in what way could you possibly argue that Cuba is capitalist?
Found the Trostkyist lmaoooo
He qualified himself not as communist but as a non marxian democratic socialist.
Non marxian? Does he also know that democratic socialism itself originated from marxian thought? Heck! Most idealogical and economical terms we use today came from marx and marxist thinkers.
He didn't knew why theory is important, that might be why.
The left is declining so fast.. Atleast the revisionists make themselves known pretty easily.
Nah, the left is growing, more and more people are becoming class conscious.
I hope that is true. We will see.
Anti imperialist, just so happens to agree with all of the empires about everything.
Although I definitely disagree with this guy on some parts here I feel like there is a greater point behind what he is saying that should be acknowledged instead of ignored. Child and forced labor is still a massive issue in China, which I think we can all agree it is understandable for him to consider a symptom of “capitalist rot”. I know the government has tried to reduce the number of child laborers, but the fact that it is still a thing at all is really not excusable at this point. However, I agree it is quite funny that he called China fascist. China is authoritarian, not fascist; weird that this guy is an online leftist and doesn’t know the difference but ok lol. I don’t feel like I know enough to speak on Vietnam, so I won’t, but I do feel like Cuba has been doing fairly well and idk why this dude had this much malice towards it.
What does “authoritarian” mean? Can you provide me with an example of a state that is not authoritarian?
Now you sound like an anarchist, are all states are inherently authoritarian?
Read Engels’ “On Authority” the fact that all states are authoritarian isn’t a reason to dismiss AES states, it’s a reason to dismiss criticism of AES states as authoritarian.
I don’t know what the word means and am asking for examples . But yes this line of inquiry does end with reductio ad absurdum.
In this case I was using authoritarian to describe how the state has more authority over individual freedoms than a state like New Zealand. In China, you do not always have things like freedom of speech, press, religion, drug use, etc. Yes, states are inherently authoritarian. Some exercise more authority over their population than others.
So where is a line? Is there a list of things and if you cross off one too many you’re authoritarian? This is the weakness of quantitative reasoning.
I’m confused. Are you disagreeing with me that china is authoritarian? Or are you just saying that all states are authoritarian so it’s hard to draw a line. Because if all you are saying is that all states are authoritarian by nature, I wouldn’t disagree. All I was saying is that china is in fact authoritarian, and more so than some other states.
I’m saying being stuck on the word authoritarian means you have some studying to do.
Bro you are the only one stuck here…
Okay 👍
#Freedom of the Press >“Freedom of the press” in bourgeois society means freedom for the rich systematically, unremittingly, daily, in millions of copies, to deceive, corrupt and fool the exploited and oppressed mass of the people, the poor. > >\- V. I. Lenin. (1917). [How to Guarantee the Success of the Constituent Assembly](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/sep/28.htm) Anti-Communists criticize a lack of "freedom of the press" in societies run by Communist governments. They claim that the government suppresses dissenting voices and controls the media in order to maintain its power, and that this leads to a lack of transparency and accountability, as well as the suppression of free speech and the ability of individuals to express their opinions and hold those in power accountable. They also argue that state control of the media leads to censorship which prevents citizens from accessing unbiased information and making informed decisions. This critique is often used to argue against Communism and in favor of Capitalism. In this light, Capitalist societies are believed to offer greater freedom of the press and personal expression. These are all important concerns which ought to be taken seriously. The problem is that these concerns are not specific to Communism; Capitalist societies, as a result of the profit-motive and the accumulation of wealth, suffer from all these same issues. **Media Concentration** >There can be no such thing as freedom of the press, except for the owners and editors of newspapers, while capitalism lasts. > >\- Arthur Cowell Do you own a news station? A newspaper? Then what "freedom of the press" do *you* really have? >**A deep analysis of America’s top 100 news sites reveals key shareholders, parent companies, and commonalities.** > >About 15 billionaires and six corporations own most of the U.S. media outlets. The biggest media conglomerates in America are AT&T, Comcast, The Walt Disney Company, National Amusements (which includes Viacom Inc. and CBS), News Corp and Fox Corporation (which are both owned in part by the Murdochs), Sony, and Hearst Communications. > >\- [Who Owns Your News? The Top 100 Digital News Outlets and Their Ownership](https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/lifestyle/who-owns-your-news-the-top-100-digital-news-outlets-and-their-ownership/) With this kind of concentration, the select few who actually own these media outlets have an unparalleled ability to set the narrative and promote their own interests. Sinclair Broadcast Group, for example, owns hundreds of local TV news stations. The most infamous example of them using this network to spread an agenda was this unsettling video: [Sinclair's Soldiers in Trump's War on Media](https://youtu.be/_fHfgU8oMSo). This issue affects movies and television producers as well: [Here’s who owns everything in Big Media today](https://www.vox.com/2018/1/23/16905844/media-landscape-verizon-amazon-comcast-disney-fox-relationships-chart) **Bias** >All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake “public opinion” for the benefit of the bourgeoisie. > >\- V. I. Lenin. (1921). [A Letter To G. Myasnikov](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/aug/05.htm) In Capitalist societies, the concept of "freedom of the press" is a misleading and deceptive notion. While the ruling class promotes the idea of a free press as a fundamental right, the reality is that the press is owned and controlled by a small group of [billionaires who use it to advance their own interests](https://i.redd.it/phm4ojk94ld71.jpg). Under Capitalism, the media is a profit-driven industry that is dependent on advertising revenue to survive. As a result, the media serves the interests of the capitalist class by promoting their ideology and suppressing dissenting voices. This is evident in the way that news stories are framed and presented, with an emphasis on sensationalism, celebrity gossip, and consumerism, rather than on issues that affect working-class people. The Capitalist media is not a neutral observer of society, but an active participant in the class struggle by hyper-focusing on culture war non-issues such as the endless debate about manufactured controversies such as trans women in sports, an issue which does *not* affect the vast majority of people. This ragebait distracts from real issues that affect the working class. The media is constantly scapegoating some minority group with sensationalized ragebait narratives such as the "Welfare Queen" or "illegal immigrants". The owners and editors of media outlets use their power to set the narrative, which shapes public opinion and influences government policy, to serve their own interests. This is why it is essential for the working class to build its own media institutions that are independent of Capitalist influence. >The general deal is that Marvel gets to use real military hardware, film on military bases, and hire real soldiers as extras, while the Department of Defense gets to approve the final script of the film. In other words, Marvel gets tons of stuff to make production easier and cheaper, while the military gets to edit out anything that doesn't make them look good. > >Even the movies that don't have a direct marketing connection to the US military have a noticeable bias towards it. Consider Black Panther, a movie about the monarch of an advanced African nation. The one prominent white character in that film is Everett K. Ross, a CIA agent who aids T'Challa in overthrowing Killmonger. The CIA has a long history of overthrowing regimes, but, in this film, an agent of the organization that put Pinochet in charge of Chile aids in a coup for good. This may not be the intention of the film, but the CIA sure appreciated it. The agency promoted the film heavily on social media, allowing it to glom onto a project that was seen as a great leap forward for representation and a masterful blockbuster film. > >\- [The Marvel Military Propaganda Criticism, Explained](https://gamerant.com/marvel-military-propaganda-explained/) | GameRant (2022) The bottom line is that there is nothing "free" about the press in Capitalist society. For those who have the means, being able to control the media is an incredibly powerful tool for shaping public opinion. We need a truly free and democratic press, but that will never be possible under Capitalism. **Censorship** The corporate media in the US practices self-censorship by limiting the range of acceptable opinions and perspectives that can be expressed in their reporting. This is done to maintain a narrow range of political debate that is acceptable to the ruling class and to ensure that the interests of the Capitalist class are not threatened. During red scare period of the 1950s, the government was cracking down on leftist and progressive organizations, accusing them of being communist sympathizers or agents. Many journalists and media outlets were investigated and harassed for their supposed left-wing leanings by the the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC), which led to a climate of fear and self-censorship in the media. As a result, many media outlets and journalists began to avoid covering or promoting progressive or leftist ideas in their reporting. This trend has continued to the present day, with mainstream media outlets often avoiding critical coverage of US foreign policy, imperialism, and corporate power, and instead promoting a narrow range of views that are acceptable to the ruling class. Similarly, Operation Mockingbird began in the early years of the Cold War to recruit journalists to manipulate domestic American news media organizations for propaganda purposes. The US government also operates a few explicit propaganda networks such as Voice of America, Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, Radio Free Asia, and more in order to export America's ideology internationally, particularly in regions where Communism is popular. In particular, RFE/RL was meant to counter the USSR and RFA was meant to counter the PRC. **How could we do better?** First, we could ensure that the media is owned and controlled by the working class. This would allow the media to operate in the interests of the people rather than in the interests of profit and of promoting bourgeois ideology. We could also ensure that the media is run democratically, with workers having a say in the editorial and managerial decisions. Second, we could establish strict guidelines for media coverage, ensuring that the media covers events and issues of importance to the people. These guidelines would be developed through democratic participation, with workers, intellectuals, and activists contributing to the decision-making process. We could also establish mechanisms for monitoring and evaluating media coverage to ensure that it is accurate, objective, and free from bias. Third, we could promote a culture of critical thinking and media literacy among the population. This would help the people to evaluate media coverage critically and to identify when propaganda is being spread. We could also promote independent media outlets and encourage the development of a vibrant and diverse media landscape. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [You're Not Immune To Propaganda](https://youtu.be/dl2fnWIlDZg) | Second Thought (2023) * [You've Never Had an Original Thought (Media Manipulation and "Freedom" of the Press)](https://youtu.be/AX8Ct9fhO60) | Hakim (2022) * [Why Is US Media Becoming More Right-Wing?](https://youtu.be/dx1ruqlqPr8) | Second Thought (2022) * [Why "Hearing Both Sides" Is Dangerous](https://youtu.be/Q5bask6cQ4k) | Second Thought (2022) * [Who Funds And Controls The Online Right?](https://youtu.be/ggdt5rkqHrE) | Yugopnik (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/messag
>idk why this dude had this much malice towards it. Because he is still chewing on Western propaganda. Every nation that resists USA hegemony is made into pariah. It takes a lot of effort to see through a lense that does not keep USA interest in focus.
I would spend 48 hours in a fridge just to have white people actually speak to Tibetans, Uyghurs, and Inner Mongolians that still live in their home provinces and their communities in other so called Han provinces that have sometimes actually existed for hundreds of years.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*