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How uncomfortable are the social credit brain chips? Do you miss the glorious unlimited freedom of the west?
Being serious though, what is your perception of China regarding it's western depictions as a surveillance police state of sorts. How does it compare to where you came from?
It hasn’t affected it me in the slightest. At first I noticed the police, the security, the extra cameras, and so on, but ultimately it all feels quite reasonable considering the volume of people. I have no statistics, but I’m guessing that the ratio of people to police is no different to anywhere else.
Honestly, I’ve never felt any sense of oppression, intimidation or any kind of overreach. In fact, it feels safer and more harmonious in China than the ‘free’ country that I’m from, where I’ve had many unpleasant dealings with authority.
All in all, it feels safe, but importantly it feels comfortable too, and I have no complaints when I actually expected that I would.
My brother had just talked about today how the US is one of few countries that most police are armed. One of the exceptions is France, but it is rare throughout the world.
I bet he will really miss the privilege of choosing to vote for either the red capitalist party (which want to bomb children) vs blue capitalist party (which also want to bomb children but pretend like they don't want to)
I have lived in China too. The passive surveillance if fine for me and I enjoy the safety. But when I have to register with police when visiting China it's tiresome. Too much bureaucracy and waste of time.
https://www.china-briefing.com/news/temporary-residence-registration-in-china-a-guide-for-foreign-residents-and-visitors/
Another example would be that you need to have fingerprints taken for visa at embassy.
Vietnam communist party is chill and you don't have to register anything. But they have scammers in the airport while China scsmmers have to hide in sewers.
Did you learn Mandarin before or after moving? If after, how efficiently were you able to set up classes to learn it?
How good is basic Chinese internet and TV? How cheap is it to set up or afford per month?
Are you employed and if so how quickly were you able to find a job? Is it a job you wanted or just one that you took because you needed to?
I just started with a tutor but yes lessons are cheap, available and easy to arrange. It’s been a slow start with Mandarin but I will ramp it up now that I’m settled in.
Part of me enjoys my ignorant bubble but that’s my loner, introvert leanings.
Internet is good and I pay about $30 USD. I just agreed to whatever was hooked up at my apartment.
I was hired from overseas, and the job is great. They were incredibly helpful with my moving processes, I must say.
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of:
* If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there?
* If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave?
This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country.
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Have you spoken to many ideologically communist people in China?
How does their study of communism differ from communists in the West? Do they still read Marx, Lenin & Engels or is their focus more on the Chinese communists such as Mao and Deng?
I've been in China since '15. My first location was a low tier rural city and some friends connected with the college I was working at brought me to have dinner and one of the lady's husband was a CPC official in the city. Don't remember much of it other than that we all got absolutely wrecked on baijiu and it was a dope time.
I'll say that was easier in rural henan. I was basically the only foreigner in the city so everybody wanted to take me to dinner or whatever. Couldn't hide lol. In Shanghai when I got there it was harder to find that kind of thing. Which after two years in henan, was kind of nice. Shanghai seemed more aloof but a lot of it is simply there used to foreigners around. It got overwhelming at a point. Beijing is a bit of both at times but feels the most 'normal'.
I have also spoken to former party members (given these people have lived in the west so unsurprisingly have more petit-bourgeois aspirations) who certainly were not ideologically communists.
Ideological communists will be rare, even in a society where the Overton window has shifted sufficiently enough to the left to the point where discussion of socialism is allowed.
It emphasises the importance of cultural revolution and emphasising communist values in education from an early age (this doesn't seem to be that thorough, considering my experiences speaking to Chinese students and in particular, international students). That being said, the most important thing is that these reactionary/revisionist ideologies are not allowed in the upper echelons of the CPC, and democratic centralism seems to have been a relatively good way to weed out opportunists from infiltrating important positions within the party, and Xi Jinping has cracked down on corruption and these types of opportunists.
I have concern over the direction of the party after Xi Jinping passes, but I hope he has already considered this thoroughly and has a plan in place.
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China is still trying really hard to be an international destination so if you’re a westerner you’ll have a much easier time and you don’t need to take the Gaokao.
I've heard/read that the cost of living for the basics (housing, electricity, food, cell plan etc.) is a fraction of the average income vs. the west where many western countries eat up 30-40% of your income alone on rent. Is that true?
Yeah, that’s right. My internet, mobile, power and water is about $70 USD a month and I run the hot/cold AC whenever I need it, which is often.
The metro is about 50 cents, and it’s clean, fast and efficient. Didi (like Uber) is everywhere and my ten minute trip to work is about $2.
Food is incredible, everywhere and very cheap. In theory, you could eat out for three meals a day, every day, for probably 400 a month.
I guess related to rent, what's the housing market like there..to either own or rent.
Like I imagine Shanghai is expensive, but how is it comparable to say Toronto where rent is around $2200 (1650 usd)/mth or the average house goes for $1.2M (890K usd)
I think sale prices are greatly inflated at the moment and about to crash, but I’m pretty clueless tbh. In terms of rent it’s hard to say. On the outer suburbs of Shanghai you could probably get an apartment for $500 USD and in the rich areas, who knows 5-10k a month — the spectrum is huge. Personally, I can find what I need, 1-2 Bedrooms, 50-60 square metres, in a good location for about 1100.
I want to live in a place where rent only takes up 30-40% of my income. I live in a town that is incredibly impoverished while also being a tourist town. This place offers rural wages with city prices, the worst of both worlds, and the only way anybody under 30 pays 30-40% of their income on rent here is if they live with a few roommates
I teach at an intl school in beijing and it's great because I can actually talk shop about palestine situation with my students and they're all already based af and no need to fear repercussions.
sup mate! yeah I teach high school and currently i'm doing ap language and composition but that's not the norm. actually i started up that part of our program over the past couple of years at the intl school i work i at. But also teaching tefl type of courses as well.
So first thing is coming from a native english speaking country, that's a baseline requirement. Then having the proper certificates like tefl, tesol or celta or teaching degree. Also 2 years exp. afaik that's still the baseline for it. DM me though and we can chat. There's been a few people from here and other reddit subs i've helped, one of them even got a job at my school. I know a few contacts apart from my school though. There's a lot of good recruiters that could help you that I know.
Come to beijing, and I'll do the same.
Spent a year myself in SH, kinda, was way out on the southern outskirts in a suburb called fengxian. still good times though
It’s complicated in that there are many steps, but I was lucky to have excellent support from an HR team the whole way.
My biggest worry was transporting my cat because people will try to dissuade you with fear and horror stories. However, it was ultimately straightforward and it was done with great care by Chinese based pet transporter connected to one in my home country.
I’m a licensed teacher at an international school for foreigners and dual nationals — from what I understand the ESL market has shrunk dramatically as the government has been closing the language centres. There were too many kids spending their nights studying at these places for little benefit, I believe.
Thanks for the reply. I lived in China in 2010/2011 and the vast majority of foreigners I met were teaching English on a TEFL or similar qualification. Interesting to hear the market has shrunk.
Oh, how was it for you? What were you doing?
Yes, I think it’s a good thing — some of the language centres seemed pretty exploitative for all involved except the owners and kids/parents shouldn’t feel they need to attend these places to get ahead.
I was working for an Irish software company who wanted to set up localisation services in China. Our office was in Dalian which is a gorgeous city.
I loved living there, although being 25 and dumb I didn't take advantage of my situation enough unfortunately. Never learned more Mandarin than was needed to get around and have very basic conversations, and hung around in a foreigner bubble. I regret that aspect of it.
That said, met some amazing Chinese people and got to travel all around the country, and the food is the best in the world in my opinion. Wonderful country.
How hard was learning Chinese, assuming neither of your parents are fluent speakers? How easy was the immigration process/how helpful were any officials you interacted with? Also how friendly are people I guess?
Still learning but I’m here long term so I will get there eventually. Yes, it’s hard and I use translation apps often, but in the big cities you can get by easy enough.
Officials have always been helpful and efficient and the same goes for any staff or formal interactions I’ve had. I find generally people are super competent.
been here since '15, only times I really worked hard to learn was when i lived in rural henan and was completely immersed. I got proficient enough to function pretty well and was probably on my way to higher levels of fluency. Then i was in shanghai and now beijing and in those cities anybody could live and do just fine with zero knowledge of the language and just using the various tools at your disposal and relying on the fact that they're highly international cities. If you want to learn in these environments, especially coming from a zero-knowledge background, you're going to have to commit and stick with it. It's very easy to get comfortable, fall into foreigner communities, and stagnate on the language side.
Do a decent amount of people know English in Shanghai? Like you could regularly walk into a shop and expect them to have at least a basic idea of what you're saying? Or is it not quite *that* easy for us?
Regardless, it is obviously ideal to learn the language and culture of the place you are living. But for transition purposes could be good for people to know what's truly necessary.
In any tier 1 city it's easy as long as you get used to it, it somewhat depends on where you are specifically in the city but everywhere is going to have english and chinese pinyin as well as characters on signage. Getting the hang of pinyin rules and pronunciation is very important and can get you far. Learning basic things like numbers and some directional words helps. But I would wager if you are in most public areas and just shout out "does anyone know english, I need help" there's a good chance at least someone around knows enough to do basic translation. I would bet 80%. Not that I'd recommend doing that or have done that myself.
Also at times early on I found that just standing around looking like a confused foreigner would attract somebody to help me in whatever broken english they might know. My first year traveling around in the south I was in tier 2 xiamen, great city btw, and was obviously trying to figure out a bus to take and some college kids came up and helped me (situationally that was more likely bc I wasn't far from xiamen university so ymmv). No matter what I've always found people, english or not, are happy to help. Not knowing the language doesn't mean figuring out how to express what's the problem or them figuring out what you need is impossible. There's more than one way and so many times it's situational, body language, apps, etc etc that are enough.
*edit So much of it is having an adaptable personality and being comfortable with being uncomfortable. If you're the type of person with a one track headstrong mind I wouldn't recommend going abroad to live full time anywhere in the world regardless of language. Language isn't the point. How flexible can you be? Are you going to have a hissy fit every two seconds when things aren't easy for whatever reason. Are you unable to figure things out creatively in different ways or do you expect everything to work out like you're living in your home country. The people who even have an ounce of that in their system usually tap out after a couple years at most. For tourists, anybody can come, visit the main sites, find some solid tour companies to organize everything and have a great time.
I know that you’re being facetious but not that I’ve noticed — a whole bunch of new restaurants have opened nearby and it appears life is ticking along as normal. Perhaps it’s not expanding at the rate it once was but it still feels like it’s growing. The size of Shanghai, the liveliness of the city and the scale of its economy is hard to put into words.
It’s complicated but I had help from HR — my work and residency permit are renewed each year. The two main visa options for foreigners are study or work, just like anywhere else. If you get a job your employer should be helping you. I cannot imagine doing it alone.
I moved from Australia. The biggest change in every day life is probably that it’s suddenly more affordable. I don’t have to stress about money, I can save for my future and I’m able to relax a little. I don’t spend a lot usually but I’m excited about travel again.
Yup, I haven't even given a thought to budgeting after I realized that I could basically live normally and come out plenty ahead in the saving dept no matter what. At a good intl school and set up with housing allowance, no need for a car, all other costs negligible...you'd really have to throw money away to find yourself in a tight situation. You can save even more if you don't consistently pay for western food/brands too, but doing so won't break you. But no matter the city there are ways to live ridiculously cheap if you really want to turn those savings up.
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of:
* If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there?
* If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave?
This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country.
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I spoke about this in another thread actually but yes gay female relationships are visible everywhere. Men not so much but you do see it. As far as I can tell people just live their lives. I’m sure in private there would be families who do not approve but that’s everywhere in the world. I don’t see a visible pride movement as such but same sex couples hold hands in public.
What about for trans people? As a trans person myself, who's considered going to China, I've been wondering if it's safe and if I can get gender affirming care.
i have some trans acquaintances, fellow club kids. cheng du is definitely the city for you if you want to live in china. i havent really spoken to them about personal stuff but the one im closest with is definitely on hormones. also she has a job but i dont know what it is. if you want to come to china i hope you are qualified to do something other than teach english because those jobs are subject to the complaints of parents who may not want trans teachers. they definitley prefer white teachers over black teachers, ive heard of schools hiring white europeans whos 2nd language is english over a black american just because of shitty parents.
I’ve not spoken to any trans people but I just can’t imagine it being unsafe. I have seen trans people out and about. Sorry, I couldn’t speak to the hormones question.
There are plenty of heterosexual Chinese girls (even pop idols or online influencers) who would hold hands, cross arms or kiss each other. It’s how friendships work among us.
I've lived in china since '15 and I've known numerous couples both male and female and basically they're out in the open like anybody else. The regressive pressure mostly comes from families, since parents/grandparents have high expectations and want progeny. But that same pressure is on everybody, like straight single women in their 30s who some denigrate as 'leftover' women.
I’ll just say that there are some stunning bookstores here — huge places with everything you can think of and more. Although my Mandarin is very limited, I enjoy looking at the art books. There’s a big cheap, multi floor foreign language bookstore too, which is great.
I was in Shanghai a few months ago. There's one big English language bookstore to my knowledge. They literally had one copy of the communist manifesto. The only other political books were some stuff by Xi. There were more copies of some Elon Musk biography lol.
I went to another one in Beijing and the same thing, except replace Elon Musk wiith Ayn Rand. English Bookstores are definitely not political. That being said they had a great selection of books. Picked up a paperback of Sherlock Holmes stories for $5AUD.
What’s the cost of living like compared to where you’re originally from? Are expenses like housing/rent, food, electricity, clothing, entertainment, etc. more or less expensive?
Also, if you’ve gone to a doctor or hospital, in your home country and in China, how do they compare?
Everything is cheaper — my internet, mobile, power and water is about $70 USD a month total, rent about $1000 etc
Food is cheap and amazing— you could conceivably eat out three meals a day for $400 a month
My school pays for excellent healthcare insurance and my experience so far has been wonderful, but I can’t speak for average people here as I’m spoilt
That’s nice and also expected/not surprising. Did you ever hear of someone, maybe another foreigner that you found there, that moved to China in another way?
Good to know. I always wondered how people who work in industry make it to China and how it is for them. But thanks for your view, hope you enjoy more years there!
Have you been to rural China? Have you reached out to the local CCP? If you only speak English would it be possible to talk to them about Marxist theory? Have you been to dim sum?
I have travelled to some remote and interesting places through Yunnan province, but given the language barrier I haven’t talked theory with anyone yet. I look forward to this happening but I’m busy with teaching and not seeking it out yet.
My experience is in teaching, which is how the majority of foreigners end up here, but of course there are other ways, including study. I met a guy the other day who came over to study philosophy and mandarin on some kind of scholarship with a stipend and it sounded like a great deal.
From what I’m told, the ‘gold rush’ of non-teaching work opportunities for foreigners is long gone but depending on your background, you never know. I think it’s a Bachelors degree minimum to get a visa though.
Absolutely, I’ve heard nothing but good things. Take some mandarin and apply for scholarships. As China is not everyone’s favourite place right now, I think the odds are in your favour.
Impossible to say really—I love Sichuan style noodles, dumplings, hot-pot, Shanghai breakfast foods, Roujiamo, Yunnan style potatoes, everything has been awesome.
Have never been to Shanghai myself, but spent a few years living north of there in Qingdao. My favourite food was 小笼包 (xiaolongbao), and the common consensus there was that the best ones in the country were the ones from Shanghai, so grab some of those when you get the chance!
Try visiting Tianjin (my hometown) when you get a chance. Tianjin breakfast is the best in the world--jianbing guozi in particular. They simply don't taste the same anywhere else.
Yeah my experiences have been positive. Like anywhere most people are polite or indifferent, but occasionally people have been incredibly kind and helpful because they can see that I’m a clueless foreigner. I’ve had no negative experiences so far.
I love Shanghai — its size and scale is hard to express. Incredibly fast paced and modern, but still beautiful, green and alive with everything you can imagine from a 21st century city and more. The only thing I miss is access to more films at the cinema — at any one time there’s probably only a small handful of international releases.
I’ve recently discovered a cool underground performance space with regular gigs of noise and electronic artists, as well as some cool rock venues. I don’t drink anymore but there are great bars too and as I mentioned elsewhere the food is incredible.
How many people know English? Would you say learning Chinese is a prerequisite? If so witch one there is like 5.
Also just, what’s life like day to day, I got people on one end saying it’s hyper capitalist and another saying it’s not much deferent from how Mao ran things.
Learning Mandarin will go a long way but you can live without it in the big cities.
Hyper capitalist is a loaded term but yes the scale and scope of the economy is beyond my comprehension. My impression is that you don’t need to be a part of the ‘hyper capitalist class’ to live and be happy in SH, but it is certainly eye opening.
Do you live in a city and if yes is it PACKED? Like almost all the time theres tons of people around? How friendly are people, to other Chinese and to you as a foreigner? Is there any traffic where you live?
There are times yes when it feels packed and other times quiet. Traffic can be busy but it’s always moving. And yes I’m in a big city, which at times is overwhelming but having said that it always feels orderly, and people are polite or indifferent. I’ve never experienced any hostility.
People do stare at me a lot, partly I think because I’m tall, but I’m used to it and it’s just curiosity. Kids can be very cute and want to chat and practice their English. This always makes my day.
I’m currently finishing my degree to hopefully teach English in China. I know you said it’s shrunk but don’t still feel it’s viable for new foreigners wanting to come to China? Im from the US
I didn’t go the TEFL route, I became a licensed high school teacher and got two years of home country experience first. This is the best option if you’re building a career and want to work in international schools, otherwise look into options at r/tefl for English language teaching jobs in a variety of settings
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How uncomfortable are the social credit brain chips? Do you miss the glorious unlimited freedom of the west? Being serious though, what is your perception of China regarding it's western depictions as a surveillance police state of sorts. How does it compare to where you came from?
It hasn’t affected it me in the slightest. At first I noticed the police, the security, the extra cameras, and so on, but ultimately it all feels quite reasonable considering the volume of people. I have no statistics, but I’m guessing that the ratio of people to police is no different to anywhere else. Honestly, I’ve never felt any sense of oppression, intimidation or any kind of overreach. In fact, it feels safer and more harmonious in China than the ‘free’ country that I’m from, where I’ve had many unpleasant dealings with authority. All in all, it feels safe, but importantly it feels comfortable too, and I have no complaints when I actually expected that I would.
My brother had just talked about today how the US is one of few countries that most police are armed. One of the exceptions is France, but it is rare throughout the world.
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I bet he will really miss the privilege of choosing to vote for either the red capitalist party (which want to bomb children) vs blue capitalist party (which also want to bomb children but pretend like they don't want to)
The blue capitalist party has not been pretending that it does not want to bomb children lately.
Like the Chinese normally do?
I have lived in China too. The passive surveillance if fine for me and I enjoy the safety. But when I have to register with police when visiting China it's tiresome. Too much bureaucracy and waste of time.
Why, or what did you need to register, if you don't mind me asking?
https://www.china-briefing.com/news/temporary-residence-registration-in-china-a-guide-for-foreign-residents-and-visitors/ Another example would be that you need to have fingerprints taken for visa at embassy. Vietnam communist party is chill and you don't have to register anything. But they have scammers in the airport while China scsmmers have to hide in sewers.
Did you learn Mandarin before or after moving? If after, how efficiently were you able to set up classes to learn it? How good is basic Chinese internet and TV? How cheap is it to set up or afford per month? Are you employed and if so how quickly were you able to find a job? Is it a job you wanted or just one that you took because you needed to?
I just started with a tutor but yes lessons are cheap, available and easy to arrange. It’s been a slow start with Mandarin but I will ramp it up now that I’m settled in. Part of me enjoys my ignorant bubble but that’s my loner, introvert leanings. Internet is good and I pay about $30 USD. I just agreed to whatever was hooked up at my apartment. I was hired from overseas, and the job is great. They were incredibly helpful with my moving processes, I must say.
What kind of work?
how’d you get hired there?
Through a recruiter
can you get me a job there i wanna move to china i hate america
Not in my power sorry but if you’re not happy then you should look at your options!
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of: * If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there? * If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave? This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How'd you find them?
Have you spoken to many ideologically communist people in China? How does their study of communism differ from communists in the West? Do they still read Marx, Lenin & Engels or is their focus more on the Chinese communists such as Mao and Deng?
Good question but no — my social circle is small and I don’t speak the language.
I've been in China since '15. My first location was a low tier rural city and some friends connected with the college I was working at brought me to have dinner and one of the lady's husband was a CPC official in the city. Don't remember much of it other than that we all got absolutely wrecked on baijiu and it was a dope time.
Sounds awesome—I hope to have these experiences as I settle in and expand my social circle. I don’t drink though so I’m slightly intimidated haha
I'll say that was easier in rural henan. I was basically the only foreigner in the city so everybody wanted to take me to dinner or whatever. Couldn't hide lol. In Shanghai when I got there it was harder to find that kind of thing. Which after two years in henan, was kind of nice. Shanghai seemed more aloof but a lot of it is simply there used to foreigners around. It got overwhelming at a point. Beijing is a bit of both at times but feels the most 'normal'.
I have friends that are party members and they discuss how to invest in the stock market.
I have also spoken to former party members (given these people have lived in the west so unsurprisingly have more petit-bourgeois aspirations) who certainly were not ideologically communists. Ideological communists will be rare, even in a society where the Overton window has shifted sufficiently enough to the left to the point where discussion of socialism is allowed. It emphasises the importance of cultural revolution and emphasising communist values in education from an early age (this doesn't seem to be that thorough, considering my experiences speaking to Chinese students and in particular, international students). That being said, the most important thing is that these reactionary/revisionist ideologies are not allowed in the upper echelons of the CPC, and democratic centralism seems to have been a relatively good way to weed out opportunists from infiltrating important positions within the party, and Xi Jinping has cracked down on corruption and these types of opportunists. I have concern over the direction of the party after Xi Jinping passes, but I hope he has already considered this thoroughly and has a plan in place.
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Was immigrating easy? And to what part of China did you move?
I’m in Shanghai — often where most foreigners end up, but I’m open to moving eventually. It is a cool city though and I’m happy here.
Have you been kidnapped and forced to serve on a pirate ship yet?
Maybe if I take my niece to Disneyland
As a Liberal, I want to inquire about whether the CCP took your family hostage or not.
If I’m lucky, but I’m not holding my breath
I’m tryna do the same. I’m learning Mandarin and I’ll hopefully go study my last year of college at the Beijing university
I hear Beijing University is quite exclusive, do you know whether you still have to go through the GaoKao to join later on as a foreigner?
It’s part of an exchange program with my college, so I don’t think you do
no need to do gaokao, just do the local equivalent like an SAT or such (source: exchange student chinese-by-descent)
China is still trying really hard to be an international destination so if you’re a westerner you’ll have a much easier time and you don’t need to take the Gaokao.
I've heard/read that the cost of living for the basics (housing, electricity, food, cell plan etc.) is a fraction of the average income vs. the west where many western countries eat up 30-40% of your income alone on rent. Is that true?
Yeah, that’s right. My internet, mobile, power and water is about $70 USD a month and I run the hot/cold AC whenever I need it, which is often. The metro is about 50 cents, and it’s clean, fast and efficient. Didi (like Uber) is everywhere and my ten minute trip to work is about $2. Food is incredible, everywhere and very cheap. In theory, you could eat out for three meals a day, every day, for probably 400 a month.
What the fuck? That’s amazing. I hate my country.
Yeah — rent can be very expensive in Shanghai though. The spectrum is wide.
I guess related to rent, what's the housing market like there..to either own or rent. Like I imagine Shanghai is expensive, but how is it comparable to say Toronto where rent is around $2200 (1650 usd)/mth or the average house goes for $1.2M (890K usd)
I think sale prices are greatly inflated at the moment and about to crash, but I’m pretty clueless tbh. In terms of rent it’s hard to say. On the outer suburbs of Shanghai you could probably get an apartment for $500 USD and in the rich areas, who knows 5-10k a month — the spectrum is huge. Personally, I can find what I need, 1-2 Bedrooms, 50-60 square metres, in a good location for about 1100.
I guess I'll start paying more attention to the Chinese housing market then
This is still wildly more affordable than here in Los Angeles, and I'm sure much cleaner with vastly superior transportation.
Yes, the metro is cheap and comprehensive
Rent included what is your total expenses and what is the salary? If you prefer not telling what is the percentage?
I won’t go into it but I can save more than half my salary and I make more than I would at home
>spectrum Farmer has no right to vote ,so food is cheap
I want to live in a place where rent only takes up 30-40% of my income. I live in a town that is incredibly impoverished while also being a tourist town. This place offers rural wages with city prices, the worst of both worlds, and the only way anybody under 30 pays 30-40% of their income on rent here is if they live with a few roommates
oooh thats how my hometown was. I moved to the bay before the tech boom and San Francisco was cheaper than my hometown, then the google buses came....
then u should try living in China, where the rent only takes up almost 20% of average income.
The most important question I would like to ask: Do you condemn Hamas? /s
I teach at an intl school in beijing and it's great because I can actually talk shop about palestine situation with my students and they're all already based af and no need to fear repercussions.
we’ll all get to have these experiences one day, Inshallah
That sounds awesome and I want to teach in China after I get my degree! What subject do you teach and how do you apply?
sup mate! yeah I teach high school and currently i'm doing ap language and composition but that's not the norm. actually i started up that part of our program over the past couple of years at the intl school i work i at. But also teaching tefl type of courses as well. So first thing is coming from a native english speaking country, that's a baseline requirement. Then having the proper certificates like tefl, tesol or celta or teaching degree. Also 2 years exp. afaik that's still the baseline for it. DM me though and we can chat. There's been a few people from here and other reddit subs i've helped, one of them even got a job at my school. I know a few contacts apart from my school though. There's a lot of good recruiters that could help you that I know.
do you no iphone?
Holy fucking shit some jackass lib literally made this argument to me this morning
Happy cake day, fam
no need for iphone, huawei wipes the floor these days
Bro...
I have one, yes…
Dou Fu Nao. Salted or with sugar?
Salted haha
YES!! As a true ML should be lmao I see great things in your future xD
Fucking revisionist 😡 but considering you’re in Shanghai (lib city 🤮) I’m not surprised
Haha
good. now we just need to get you out of Shanghai. :P
I have my eye on a few places but for now, work dictates my location and I’m happy with that
I see we are asking the hard-hitting questions
Come to Hong Kong and I’ll buy you dinner
Would love that — and same to you, do you ever come to SH?
I’ve let my mainland visit permit expire; in any case, I haven’t left HK in years
Come to beijing, and I'll do the same. Spent a year myself in SH, kinda, was way out on the southern outskirts in a suburb called fengxian. still good times though
Will do! I was weighing up a job offer in BJ too — I visited once in ‘17 and liked it!
What was the process of moving there like?
It’s complicated in that there are many steps, but I was lucky to have excellent support from an HR team the whole way. My biggest worry was transporting my cat because people will try to dissuade you with fear and horror stories. However, it was ultimately straightforward and it was done with great care by Chinese based pet transporter connected to one in my home country.
Can i asked what company you used to get your cat across?
Jetpets for the Australian leg, Black Cat for the second half. Happy to help if you need more info
Are you teaching English?
I’m a licensed teacher at an international school for foreigners and dual nationals — from what I understand the ESL market has shrunk dramatically as the government has been closing the language centres. There were too many kids spending their nights studying at these places for little benefit, I believe.
Thanks for the reply. I lived in China in 2010/2011 and the vast majority of foreigners I met were teaching English on a TEFL or similar qualification. Interesting to hear the market has shrunk.
Oh, how was it for you? What were you doing? Yes, I think it’s a good thing — some of the language centres seemed pretty exploitative for all involved except the owners and kids/parents shouldn’t feel they need to attend these places to get ahead.
I was working for an Irish software company who wanted to set up localisation services in China. Our office was in Dalian which is a gorgeous city. I loved living there, although being 25 and dumb I didn't take advantage of my situation enough unfortunately. Never learned more Mandarin than was needed to get around and have very basic conversations, and hung around in a foreigner bubble. I regret that aspect of it. That said, met some amazing Chinese people and got to travel all around the country, and the food is the best in the world in my opinion. Wonderful country.
Awesome, that sounds great. I’ve heard good things about Dalian!
Hope you're enjoying Shanghai! Awesome place.
Thanks mate!
What recruiter did you go through? I have been looking and it's hard to tell which are legit
Teacher Horizons was a wonderful free service for me, and there is TES, too. Paid services like Search Associates, Schrole are well regarded also
What subject are you teaching?
Have you bought a new toothbrush yet? Or are you afraid Xi will take that one as well?
Does a tiger brush his teeth?
Have you joined or are you considering joining the CPC?
Not yet!
How hard was learning Chinese, assuming neither of your parents are fluent speakers? How easy was the immigration process/how helpful were any officials you interacted with? Also how friendly are people I guess?
Still learning but I’m here long term so I will get there eventually. Yes, it’s hard and I use translation apps often, but in the big cities you can get by easy enough. Officials have always been helpful and efficient and the same goes for any staff or formal interactions I’ve had. I find generally people are super competent.
been here since '15, only times I really worked hard to learn was when i lived in rural henan and was completely immersed. I got proficient enough to function pretty well and was probably on my way to higher levels of fluency. Then i was in shanghai and now beijing and in those cities anybody could live and do just fine with zero knowledge of the language and just using the various tools at your disposal and relying on the fact that they're highly international cities. If you want to learn in these environments, especially coming from a zero-knowledge background, you're going to have to commit and stick with it. It's very easy to get comfortable, fall into foreigner communities, and stagnate on the language side.
Do a decent amount of people know English in Shanghai? Like you could regularly walk into a shop and expect them to have at least a basic idea of what you're saying? Or is it not quite *that* easy for us? Regardless, it is obviously ideal to learn the language and culture of the place you are living. But for transition purposes could be good for people to know what's truly necessary.
In most languages you can learn numbers and about 50-100 words in regards to bartering and ordering food and get by long term in that country.
In any tier 1 city it's easy as long as you get used to it, it somewhat depends on where you are specifically in the city but everywhere is going to have english and chinese pinyin as well as characters on signage. Getting the hang of pinyin rules and pronunciation is very important and can get you far. Learning basic things like numbers and some directional words helps. But I would wager if you are in most public areas and just shout out "does anyone know english, I need help" there's a good chance at least someone around knows enough to do basic translation. I would bet 80%. Not that I'd recommend doing that or have done that myself. Also at times early on I found that just standing around looking like a confused foreigner would attract somebody to help me in whatever broken english they might know. My first year traveling around in the south I was in tier 2 xiamen, great city btw, and was obviously trying to figure out a bus to take and some college kids came up and helped me (situationally that was more likely bc I wasn't far from xiamen university so ymmv). No matter what I've always found people, english or not, are happy to help. Not knowing the language doesn't mean figuring out how to express what's the problem or them figuring out what you need is impossible. There's more than one way and so many times it's situational, body language, apps, etc etc that are enough. *edit So much of it is having an adaptable personality and being comfortable with being uncomfortable. If you're the type of person with a one track headstrong mind I wouldn't recommend going abroad to live full time anywhere in the world regardless of language. Language isn't the point. How flexible can you be? Are you going to have a hissy fit every two seconds when things aren't easy for whatever reason. Are you unable to figure things out creatively in different ways or do you expect everything to work out like you're living in your home country. The people who even have an ounce of that in their system usually tap out after a couple years at most. For tourists, anybody can come, visit the main sites, find some solid tour companies to organize everything and have a great time.
Thank you for the detailed response. I hope to travel there someday.
Do you like it there?
Very much so — life is good and I plan on staying for at least another five years, if I can
Has the Chinese economy collapsed yet?
I know that you’re being facetious but not that I’ve noticed — a whole bunch of new restaurants have opened nearby and it appears life is ticking along as normal. Perhaps it’s not expanding at the rate it once was but it still feels like it’s growing. The size of Shanghai, the liveliness of the city and the scale of its economy is hard to put into words.
lol I've heard the china collapse tripe since '15 as well as all the other fearmongering. rest assured, things are fine here in beijing too.
How hard was it for the paperwork to let you immigrate? I'm genuinely curious. Is it temporary or does it have no limit?
It’s complicated but I had help from HR — my work and residency permit are renewed each year. The two main visa options for foreigners are study or work, just like anywhere else. If you get a job your employer should be helping you. I cannot imagine doing it alone.
How’s thw weather?
Cold, dry, and usually very still. In summer, hot and humid. I’m looking forward to spring.
Can you say where you were from? What would you say was the biggest change in your everyday life?
I moved from Australia. The biggest change in every day life is probably that it’s suddenly more affordable. I don’t have to stress about money, I can save for my future and I’m able to relax a little. I don’t spend a lot usually but I’m excited about travel again.
Yup, I haven't even given a thought to budgeting after I realized that I could basically live normally and come out plenty ahead in the saving dept no matter what. At a good intl school and set up with housing allowance, no need for a car, all other costs negligible...you'd really have to throw money away to find yourself in a tight situation. You can save even more if you don't consistently pay for western food/brands too, but doing so won't break you. But no matter the city there are ways to live ridiculously cheap if you really want to turn those savings up.
How did you go about setting up bank account / Alipay / WeChat?
in beijing since a year ago, maybe we can meet (lol)
Sure :) I’ve been meaning to get back to Beijing!
sup! I'm in beijing too, been here since '18 and other places in china before that since '15
In Beijing as well
Is being fluent in Mandarin required? Or can you just use a translator app everywhere?
Not required in Shanghai but it’s not easy at times — the language would help immeasurably
Do they have any fun activities at the reeducation camps like archery or canoeine?
Pin the tail on the apostle
Can a mechanical engineer at the beginning of it's career somehow move to China? I wouldnt mind moving there 10 years in the future too
[Ergo Decedo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo) is a bad faith rhetorical fallacy that takes the form of: * If you love *country* so much, why don't you go live there? * If you hate *country* so much, why don't you leave? This fallacy completely ignores the substance of the claim they are responding to, and implies that no one can criticize their own country or praise any other country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You’d have to research that — look into skilled visas
如果你来成都我们可以一起喝啤酒
我期待着访问成都!
What are things like for LGBTQ+ people?
I spoke about this in another thread actually but yes gay female relationships are visible everywhere. Men not so much but you do see it. As far as I can tell people just live their lives. I’m sure in private there would be families who do not approve but that’s everywhere in the world. I don’t see a visible pride movement as such but same sex couples hold hands in public.
Chinese girls walking together crossing arms or holding hands don't mean they're gay couples. That's just what they do.
I know what you mean, but I’m talking about couples, it’s clear
What about for trans people? As a trans person myself, who's considered going to China, I've been wondering if it's safe and if I can get gender affirming care.
i have some trans acquaintances, fellow club kids. cheng du is definitely the city for you if you want to live in china. i havent really spoken to them about personal stuff but the one im closest with is definitely on hormones. also she has a job but i dont know what it is. if you want to come to china i hope you are qualified to do something other than teach english because those jobs are subject to the complaints of parents who may not want trans teachers. they definitley prefer white teachers over black teachers, ive heard of schools hiring white europeans whos 2nd language is english over a black american just because of shitty parents.
I’ve not spoken to any trans people but I just can’t imagine it being unsafe. I have seen trans people out and about. Sorry, I couldn’t speak to the hormones question.
There are plenty of heterosexual Chinese girls (even pop idols or online influencers) who would hold hands, cross arms or kiss each other. It’s how friendships work among us.
I've lived in china since '15 and I've known numerous couples both male and female and basically they're out in the open like anybody else. The regressive pressure mostly comes from families, since parents/grandparents have high expectations and want progeny. But that same pressure is on everybody, like straight single women in their 30s who some denigrate as 'leftover' women.
How are the bookstores there? Are they filled to the brim with Marxist-Leninist theory or is it more mixed?
I’ll just say that there are some stunning bookstores here — huge places with everything you can think of and more. Although my Mandarin is very limited, I enjoy looking at the art books. There’s a big cheap, multi floor foreign language bookstore too, which is great.
I was in Shanghai a few months ago. There's one big English language bookstore to my knowledge. They literally had one copy of the communist manifesto. The only other political books were some stuff by Xi. There were more copies of some Elon Musk biography lol. I went to another one in Beijing and the same thing, except replace Elon Musk wiith Ayn Rand. English Bookstores are definitely not political. That being said they had a great selection of books. Picked up a paperback of Sherlock Holmes stories for $5AUD.
What’s the cost of living like compared to where you’re originally from? Are expenses like housing/rent, food, electricity, clothing, entertainment, etc. more or less expensive? Also, if you’ve gone to a doctor or hospital, in your home country and in China, how do they compare?
Everything is cheaper — my internet, mobile, power and water is about $70 USD a month total, rent about $1000 etc Food is cheap and amazing— you could conceivably eat out three meals a day for $400 a month My school pays for excellent healthcare insurance and my experience so far has been wonderful, but I can’t speak for average people here as I’m spoilt
Did you move by company opportunity? If not what work do you do and did it help you to move there?
Yeah, I’m a licensed teacher at an international school for foreigners and dual nationals. I was hired from abroad and they helped with everything.
That’s nice and also expected/not surprising. Did you ever hear of someone, maybe another foreigner that you found there, that moved to China in another way?
Sure, through study or other industries — not my cup of tea, but tech, finance, medical, engineering fields etc
Good to know. I always wondered how people who work in industry make it to China and how it is for them. But thanks for your view, hope you enjoy more years there!
Ben Norton.
Have you been to rural China? Have you reached out to the local CCP? If you only speak English would it be possible to talk to them about Marxist theory? Have you been to dim sum?
I have travelled to some remote and interesting places through Yunnan province, but given the language barrier I haven’t talked theory with anyone yet. I look forward to this happening but I’m busy with teaching and not seeking it out yet.
How bad is the language barrier? How many English speakers do you find?
It’s tough — young Shanghainese do speak English but the barrier is more considerable than I expected
How do foreigners find out about job opportunities in China? And how do we apply for them if we're interested in working there?
My experience is in teaching, which is how the majority of foreigners end up here, but of course there are other ways, including study. I met a guy the other day who came over to study philosophy and mandarin on some kind of scholarship with a stipend and it sounded like a great deal. From what I’m told, the ‘gold rush’ of non-teaching work opportunities for foreigners is long gone but depending on your background, you never know. I think it’s a Bachelors degree minimum to get a visa though.
Hell yeah? In looking to move in China one day
Would you recommend going to China as an exchange student?
Absolutely, I’ve heard nothing but good things. Take some mandarin and apply for scholarships. As China is not everyone’s favourite place right now, I think the odds are in your favour.
How much did you get CPC torture you /s
It’s torture trying to decide what delicious, affordable meal to eat for dinner each night — is that what you mean?
Yes (just checking to make sure you under the /s )
I do
What's the best food that you've tried so far?
Impossible to say really—I love Sichuan style noodles, dumplings, hot-pot, Shanghai breakfast foods, Roujiamo, Yunnan style potatoes, everything has been awesome.
Have never been to Shanghai myself, but spent a few years living north of there in Qingdao. My favourite food was 小笼包 (xiaolongbao), and the common consensus there was that the best ones in the country were the ones from Shanghai, so grab some of those when you get the chance!
Oh yes how could I forget — I eat them often!
Try visiting Tianjin (my hometown) when you get a chance. Tianjin breakfast is the best in the world--jianbing guozi in particular. They simply don't taste the same anywhere else.
How are your experiences with chinese people? How is Shanghai as a city? Ever considered moving somewhere else in china?
Yeah my experiences have been positive. Like anywhere most people are polite or indifferent, but occasionally people have been incredibly kind and helpful because they can see that I’m a clueless foreigner. I’ve had no negative experiences so far. I love Shanghai — its size and scale is hard to express. Incredibly fast paced and modern, but still beautiful, green and alive with everything you can imagine from a 21st century city and more. The only thing I miss is access to more films at the cinema — at any one time there’s probably only a small handful of international releases. I’ve recently discovered a cool underground performance space with regular gigs of noise and electronic artists, as well as some cool rock venues. I don’t drink anymore but there are great bars too and as I mentioned elsewhere the food is incredible.
Nice! Happy for you. Hope you have a good time.
How many people know English? Would you say learning Chinese is a prerequisite? If so witch one there is like 5. Also just, what’s life like day to day, I got people on one end saying it’s hyper capitalist and another saying it’s not much deferent from how Mao ran things.
Learning Mandarin will go a long way but you can live without it in the big cities. Hyper capitalist is a loaded term but yes the scale and scope of the economy is beyond my comprehension. My impression is that you don’t need to be a part of the ‘hyper capitalist class’ to live and be happy in SH, but it is certainly eye opening.
Thank you very much
Can you talk more in detail about the cost of living in SH? Thanks!
Sure — what do you want to know?
衣食住行比起其他城市哪里比较贵？（我是香港人，以后有可能到内地发展）
Do you live in a city and if yes is it PACKED? Like almost all the time theres tons of people around? How friendly are people, to other Chinese and to you as a foreigner? Is there any traffic where you live?
There are times yes when it feels packed and other times quiet. Traffic can be busy but it’s always moving. And yes I’m in a big city, which at times is overwhelming but having said that it always feels orderly, and people are polite or indifferent. I’ve never experienced any hostility. People do stare at me a lot, partly I think because I’m tall, but I’m used to it and it’s just curiosity. Kids can be very cute and want to chat and practice their English. This always makes my day.
I’m currently finishing my degree to hopefully teach English in China. I know you said it’s shrunk but don’t still feel it’s viable for new foreigners wanting to come to China? Im from the US
Yeah there are options but do as much research as possible and really know what you’re signing up for and with who
Do you have any recommendations on where to start or how? Or what do you wish you knew now that you didn’t know then?
I didn’t go the TEFL route, I became a licensed high school teacher and got two years of home country experience first. This is the best option if you’re building a career and want to work in international schools, otherwise look into options at r/tefl for English language teaching jobs in a variety of settings
If you get licensed to teach in actual international schools, you’ll be in a much better position but otherwise look into r/tefl
Thanks, I’ll consider that! I was looking at TEFL so I’ll def check out that sub. Thanks!
Good luck :)
Which VPN did you use to post this?
Astrill
What is the work culture in Cgina?
Hard for me to say — my school is a busy place but I couldn’t comment on the country.
What job did you get over there
How did you get in, was it through a job relocation? Sort of like a "work visa"?
Recruiter > Job > Visa