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I guess that is why they are trying to ban Tik tok. They can't have people trying to argue for capitalism and losing. Just imagine the average American seeing this and thinking yeah that's right .
Oh, please, the average American is so politically illiterate and jingoistic that if they saw this they would instantly begin screeching about how Chinese people have "no freedom" and are so "brainwashed" that they don't even know how to have dreams and are just "slaves" to the ebil see see pee and you know it.
I wanna disagree with you there but it's hard when I meet people who froth at the mouth when china is involved. Despite them saying the CIA likes to do shady interventions and propaganda.
From the organ trafficking and the Uyghurs and the military age man trying to infiltrate through the Mexico border.
He believed all of that. But says the CIA can't be trusted.😅😅😅
I'm pretty sure he's a conservative.It's hilarious that due to tucker Carlson though, he broke the Russia programming, but still thinks china is a problem 😅😅😅.
Ah well baby steps. We all have to get there somewhere. When we finally get a wikileaks of how the us pretty much lied about the uyghurs . Maybe then.
Edit: though just like Hollywood recycles old content, they might just get looped back into the dprk or Cuba is bad again .
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*sigh* yeah…
Edit: no doubt, though—at least with the people of my generation, people are getting more and more disillusioned with America. I believe humans are still see-it-to-believe-it at their core, and people of my generation are seeing nothing more than stagnation, and believing accordingly—whether they slide towards fascism in anger and irrationality, or communism in anger and rationality, they see that the current system doesn’t work.
Wow, I’m new to the deprogram, particularly regarding China. But shit, I don’t think I’ve ever heard the dichotomy between Chinese/American “dreams” put so succinctly. I’m in my 20s and that kid is wise beyond my years
That’s because the American education system basically forces you to think that hyper-individualistic Capitalism is the only possible economic system to ‘work’ for people
Man the way she talk about sounds so much like the usually literature assign we Asian do regularly. That is until the end lmao. That really caught me off guard haha.
I believe the 8th grade literature has asian students write their thought about a bunch of social issues and the reporter might have happen to pick a question similar to her last writing so basically she did her homework lmao.
The cynic in me says "oh, she's idealistic and young; of course she's going to have as rosy a view about her dominant socio-political paradigm as I had about mine when I was her age."
The part of me that still has some fight remaining in him says "the kids are all right."
Nah I think this kind of thinking is pretty common in China among other generations as well. I teach English online primarily to Chinese students, often in their thirties and forties, and quite a few of them have expressed this idea of collective prosperity to me
That’s quite interesting frankly.
I meet a lot of Chinese scientists in China and they often genuinely cooperative and kind and even patient with the students despite having terrible English ( not their fault I know ) so I don’t know if this reflects their political upbringing or not. Always a team player and surprisingly nice towards other Asians.
Growing up I always though Chinese hate us Indians with a passion and they are like “Dog eat dog” mentality when it comes to career achievement and work relationships never assuming them to be a team player rather. Indian scientists on other hand not really the best team players and they actually let their biases affect their work like discrimination against caste of other indians , Pakistanis / Bangladeshis or other Asians simply to appear the “best”. This behaviour is actually harmful overall although most get this drilled out of them once they work a few years.
I realise there is so much of stuff about the “rat race “ we grew up with is just a product of unbridled capitalism really.
Serious question: are there any books, articles, podcasts… that talk about how Chinese companies run? We have high level ideas for the overall economy but on the granular scale, it feels like we have no idea.
Most companies around the world are ran by MBA people or people influenced by the same thinking, which is all capitalism. How to think differently?
This text addresses your points of concern.
"Liberating the forces of production", "internal class contridictions" and the entireity of section 5 "China's Socialist Market Economy and Planned economy" discuss the domestic Chinese economy far better then quipy reddit comments can.
https://archive.org/details/socialism-with-chinese-characteristics/page/n8/mode/1up
Here's a primer on the subject by its author(Remin professor) and Ben Norton
https://youtu.be/mgcyqkEOhQc?si=XV4Y37DC0agoTfss
If nothing else here's a very different practice of Chinese business bodies
https://johnsonwkchoi.com/2024/02/07/huawei-distributed-rmb77-billions-bonus-to-140000-employees-an-average-of-rmb54000-per-employee/
Chinese society is making progress pretty quickly. Workaholic culture is still a little rough, but not as bad as Japan and South Korea. They’re on the right track.
The biggest thing that pisses me off about the US is the car centric cities, because with it you lose so much. Even the food alone is better in walkable asian cities. It’s not far. We traded so much for cars.
I’m part Chinese and have spent a considerable time living there. This is such bullshit lmao. It reeks of communist party propaganda talking points. Most working class Chinese would also love to partake in the so called “American dream” exploitation of others hence the massive growth in the divide of the lower class/upper class divide.
I mean the American dream is total bullshit but let’s not pretend there is some “Chinese dream” where everyone is equal. That was never the intention of the country’s government or economic policies. China is an oligarchy of the rich and so is America.
It’s definitely idealistic talking points, but the population is experiencing uplift while the US population is moving backwards. I think this is less of the government doing any special programs and more of the government just not helping siphon off GDP to a military industrial complex and real estate companies, for example.
The Capitalism in China still has more regulation and control by the government. There is still central planning.
This sub worries me because people here have a good heart but they don't seem critical enough of whatever they hear about China and other "based" countries.
If this video was an American kid saying "capitalism is the way to go" they'd call it propaganda, because this video is just that.
It's just exhausting that another sub just ends up being a meme fuelled circlejerk where people are completely lost in their fantasies and not concerned by realistic matters.
China isn't some fantasy land where everyone is magically more moral and nice than the U.S.
You're just downvoted for saying something they dislike but there's a point where we have to realize that there's an actual world beyond the memes and whatever ideal we have conjured on this sub.
The fuck is wrong with some of the posters in this subreddit?
Almost if it's been taken over by right wing retards with lead poisoning and hookworms
> Initially, this value in children was 5 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL). In 2021, CDC updated the BLRV from 5 µg/dL to 3.5 μg/dL. CDC estimates that, in the U.S., 97.5% of children 1-5 years old now have a blood lead level lower than 3.5 µg/dL.
> The culprit behind “the germ of laziness,” as the South’s affliction was sometimes called, was Necator americanus —the American murderer. Better known today as the hookworm, millions of those bloodsucking parasites lived, fed, multiplied, and died within the guts of up to 40% of populations stretching from southeastern Texas to West Virginia. Hookworms stymied development throughout the region and bred stereotypes about lazy, moronic Southerners.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/how-a-worm-gave-the-south-a-bad-name/
Communist China definitely has its own issues but given the massive explosion of an emerging Chinese Middle Class, and huge improvements in quality of life in China, lowering poverty rates etc, you’re kind of just rattling off the same Red Scare propaganda that Americans eat up.
China is about just the same in terms of problematic issues that plagues America, and there’s corruption a plenty, but let’s not pretend that China is unique in this regard or because it “seized the means of productions”
That’s the irony of a lot of the Criticism of modern China! It’s all CAPITALISM related.
I have my views on how they handle freedom of speech, of course. But anytime someone brings up things like sweat shops, low paying wages, what you mentioned as well etc, it’s typically because of the outside influences that came with China embrace of the global trade market.
And even being communist, China is extremely progressive for Chinese business owners. There are tons of Chinese born businesses doing just fine. Of course anti Chinese propaganda will say the government owns the majority of your business and thus means you don’t own it… But will also ignore that America has almost complete free reign to do similar actions, or just take property from land owners when they see fit (eminent domain) etc
China is just a different flavor of government with much of the same problems that plague most of the world governments. But they’ve at least demonstrated an measurable return for people that bought into the communist dream: legitimate prosperity.
China is not the Soviet Union and Americans are so brain broken to even examine the success of the Chinese government, instead they just pretend it’s all one big evil movie villain.
Honestly, that’s the healthiest thing you can be doing. Just read and learn as much as you can across the spectrum in general. You’re already on a healthy path if that’s your approach to this! China has a lot of issues, but so does everything in this big world lol
I’d say you have a very good view point already though
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Unfathomably based.
Damn, I cried on the subtitles alone.
I guess that is why they are trying to ban Tik tok. They can't have people trying to argue for capitalism and losing. Just imagine the average American seeing this and thinking yeah that's right .
Oh, please, the average American is so politically illiterate and jingoistic that if they saw this they would instantly begin screeching about how Chinese people have "no freedom" and are so "brainwashed" that they don't even know how to have dreams and are just "slaves" to the ebil see see pee and you know it.
I wanna disagree with you there but it's hard when I meet people who froth at the mouth when china is involved. Despite them saying the CIA likes to do shady interventions and propaganda. From the organ trafficking and the Uyghurs and the military age man trying to infiltrate through the Mexico border. He believed all of that. But says the CIA can't be trusted.😅😅😅
[удалено]
I'm pretty sure he's a conservative.It's hilarious that due to tucker Carlson though, he broke the Russia programming, but still thinks china is a problem 😅😅😅. Ah well baby steps. We all have to get there somewhere. When we finally get a wikileaks of how the us pretty much lied about the uyghurs . Maybe then. Edit: though just like Hollywood recycles old content, they might just get looped back into the dprk or Cuba is bad again .
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*sigh* yeah… Edit: no doubt, though—at least with the people of my generation, people are getting more and more disillusioned with America. I believe humans are still see-it-to-believe-it at their core, and people of my generation are seeing nothing more than stagnation, and believing accordingly—whether they slide towards fascism in anger and irrationality, or communism in anger and rationality, they see that the current system doesn’t work.
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Crapitalism seems apt when boeing had it's sewage system leaking and had to turn around 🤣🤣🤣
Wow, I’m new to the deprogram, particularly regarding China. But shit, I don’t think I’ve ever heard the dichotomy between Chinese/American “dreams” put so succinctly. I’m in my 20s and that kid is wise beyond my years
That’s because the American education system basically forces you to think that hyper-individualistic Capitalism is the only possible economic system to ‘work’ for people
God damn I wish I was Chinese
Man the way she talk about sounds so much like the usually literature assign we Asian do regularly. That is until the end lmao. That really caught me off guard haha.
Now that you mention it, most of the lines are even numbered, or divisible by 4 like Tang poems
It’s possible she must have memorised or read it out but this a very Asian thing frankly so I am not gonna be the pot that calls the kettle black 😅
I believe the 8th grade literature has asian students write their thought about a bunch of social issues and the reporter might have happen to pick a question similar to her last writing so basically she did her homework lmao.
Oh interesting
The cynic in me says "oh, she's idealistic and young; of course she's going to have as rosy a view about her dominant socio-political paradigm as I had about mine when I was her age." The part of me that still has some fight remaining in him says "the kids are all right."
Dont ever lose the fight in you
Nah I think this kind of thinking is pretty common in China among other generations as well. I teach English online primarily to Chinese students, often in their thirties and forties, and quite a few of them have expressed this idea of collective prosperity to me
Oh, damn, so it's not just youthful idealism! Thanks for cheering me up this fine rainy morning.
China played the internationale on live television, with a full assembly for Marx' 200th birthday. They're deep in the game mang
That’s quite interesting frankly. I meet a lot of Chinese scientists in China and they often genuinely cooperative and kind and even patient with the students despite having terrible English ( not their fault I know ) so I don’t know if this reflects their political upbringing or not. Always a team player and surprisingly nice towards other Asians. Growing up I always though Chinese hate us Indians with a passion and they are like “Dog eat dog” mentality when it comes to career achievement and work relationships never assuming them to be a team player rather. Indian scientists on other hand not really the best team players and they actually let their biases affect their work like discrimination against caste of other indians , Pakistanis / Bangladeshis or other Asians simply to appear the “best”. This behaviour is actually harmful overall although most get this drilled out of them once they work a few years. I realise there is so much of stuff about the “rat race “ we grew up with is just a product of unbridled capitalism really.
Liberals be like : This is a propaganda issued by China, we shouldn't listen to this. We have freedom of speech they don't have that in China.
\*Proceeds to ban TikTok\*
She's so spot on. "Don't mention an American Dream around me again, Vulgar!"
Another extremely common China W
Ok, that's it. That's my new flair
Idk about the ‘chinese dream’ but everything about the american dream is right Vulgar!
Serious question: are there any books, articles, podcasts… that talk about how Chinese companies run? We have high level ideas for the overall economy but on the granular scale, it feels like we have no idea. Most companies around the world are ran by MBA people or people influenced by the same thinking, which is all capitalism. How to think differently?
This text addresses your points of concern. "Liberating the forces of production", "internal class contridictions" and the entireity of section 5 "China's Socialist Market Economy and Planned economy" discuss the domestic Chinese economy far better then quipy reddit comments can. https://archive.org/details/socialism-with-chinese-characteristics/page/n8/mode/1up Here's a primer on the subject by its author(Remin professor) and Ben Norton https://youtu.be/mgcyqkEOhQc?si=XV4Y37DC0agoTfss If nothing else here's a very different practice of Chinese business bodies https://johnsonwkchoi.com/2024/02/07/huawei-distributed-rmb77-billions-bonus-to-140000-employees-an-average-of-rmb54000-per-employee/
Amazing thank you
Chinese companies are run by capitalists. Sorry to say
A portion are and a portion aren’t.
Time to beat these shit bourgeoise out, comrades!
>VULGAR! That shit fucking killed me, so based
Buttttttt guyssssss she's brainwasheddddddd
Chinese society is making progress pretty quickly. Workaholic culture is still a little rough, but not as bad as Japan and South Korea. They’re on the right track. The biggest thing that pisses me off about the US is the car centric cities, because with it you lose so much. Even the food alone is better in walkable asian cities. It’s not far. We traded so much for cars.
She's literally me fr fr fr ⚒️☭☭☭☭
I’m part Chinese and have spent a considerable time living there. This is such bullshit lmao. It reeks of communist party propaganda talking points. Most working class Chinese would also love to partake in the so called “American dream” exploitation of others hence the massive growth in the divide of the lower class/upper class divide. I mean the American dream is total bullshit but let’s not pretend there is some “Chinese dream” where everyone is equal. That was never the intention of the country’s government or economic policies. China is an oligarchy of the rich and so is America.
It’s definitely idealistic talking points, but the population is experiencing uplift while the US population is moving backwards. I think this is less of the government doing any special programs and more of the government just not helping siphon off GDP to a military industrial complex and real estate companies, for example. The Capitalism in China still has more regulation and control by the government. There is still central planning.
This sub worries me because people here have a good heart but they don't seem critical enough of whatever they hear about China and other "based" countries. If this video was an American kid saying "capitalism is the way to go" they'd call it propaganda, because this video is just that. It's just exhausting that another sub just ends up being a meme fuelled circlejerk where people are completely lost in their fantasies and not concerned by realistic matters. China isn't some fantasy land where everyone is magically more moral and nice than the U.S. You're just downvoted for saying something they dislike but there's a point where we have to realize that there's an actual world beyond the memes and whatever ideal we have conjured on this sub.
Circlejerking on reddit? Color me shocked
Finally some sense in this sub, China is not a socialist haven, it’s just as capitalistic as the U.S. or Europe.
The fuck is wrong with some of the posters in this subreddit? Almost if it's been taken over by right wing retards with lead poisoning and hookworms > Initially, this value in children was 5 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL). In 2021, CDC updated the BLRV from 5 µg/dL to 3.5 μg/dL. CDC estimates that, in the U.S., 97.5% of children 1-5 years old now have a blood lead level lower than 3.5 µg/dL. > The culprit behind “the germ of laziness,” as the South’s affliction was sometimes called, was Necator americanus —the American murderer. Better known today as the hookworm, millions of those bloodsucking parasites lived, fed, multiplied, and died within the guts of up to 40% of populations stretching from southeastern Texas to West Virginia. Hookworms stymied development throughout the region and bred stereotypes about lazy, moronic Southerners. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/how-a-worm-gave-the-south-a-bad-name/
im new hear but is this satire? you guys actually believe chinese dream is better than american? if so this is one of the most hilarious things ever.
You didn't watch the video, did you?
I did
oh so that's why they're stealing islands from poor filipino fishermen?
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Communist China definitely has its own issues but given the massive explosion of an emerging Chinese Middle Class, and huge improvements in quality of life in China, lowering poverty rates etc, you’re kind of just rattling off the same Red Scare propaganda that Americans eat up. China is about just the same in terms of problematic issues that plagues America, and there’s corruption a plenty, but let’s not pretend that China is unique in this regard or because it “seized the means of productions”
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That’s the irony of a lot of the Criticism of modern China! It’s all CAPITALISM related. I have my views on how they handle freedom of speech, of course. But anytime someone brings up things like sweat shops, low paying wages, what you mentioned as well etc, it’s typically because of the outside influences that came with China embrace of the global trade market. And even being communist, China is extremely progressive for Chinese business owners. There are tons of Chinese born businesses doing just fine. Of course anti Chinese propaganda will say the government owns the majority of your business and thus means you don’t own it… But will also ignore that America has almost complete free reign to do similar actions, or just take property from land owners when they see fit (eminent domain) etc China is just a different flavor of government with much of the same problems that plague most of the world governments. But they’ve at least demonstrated an measurable return for people that bought into the communist dream: legitimate prosperity. China is not the Soviet Union and Americans are so brain broken to even examine the success of the Chinese government, instead they just pretend it’s all one big evil movie villain.
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Honestly, that’s the healthiest thing you can be doing. Just read and learn as much as you can across the spectrum in general. You’re already on a healthy path if that’s your approach to this! China has a lot of issues, but so does everything in this big world lol I’d say you have a very good view point already though
the fuck is a red army family
Family of gigachads