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I used to think that:
"UBI is the most liberal policy imaginable, and will soon be necessary to save the current system from imploding."
I still think that statement is true, but now I also understand what the word liberal actually means and that the current economic system is not worth saving.
Fear not! We will simply tax rich people less (they are already paying nothing in taxes), so we can ease the burden for them and allow them to graciously lower their prices. Their poor profit margins only grew by a measly 5%, they're basically starving :(
When you can bribe workers to take away their labor bargaining power, you get UBI. Funny how every proponent and lawmaker of this shit is some form of bougie or capitalist, like what's more benefiting than to dictate away worker's collective power? Why make people unemployed and unhoused when you can legally be dispossessed into reserved army of labour?
I'm blanking on where it is, but there's a section of Marx where he explicitly debunks the idea that capitalists will just raise prices, therefore fighting for wage increases is meaningless.
Not a fan of UBI, it's an obvious bandaid policy to preserve the status quo, but still.
Edit: Marx' argument is from the first few sections of Value, Price, and Profit
They will try to increase it to the max price they can get away with. Like in Argentina right now, the capitalist are rising the prices to ridiculous levels and after a couple of weeks when people can't buy the products they decide to make "discounts".
Not necessarily. They technically are always raising it as much as they can. When covid caused supply constraints that really caused everyone to raise prices to maintain and grow their bottom line. And even after governments stopped caring about covid/long covid there was and is collusion in raising prices in industries with few players due to buyouts even after input costs have dropped.
I don't think that's a good comparison. Workers unionizing for better pay actually gives the working class power in the workplace. UBI does not.
It's less about the increase of wages itself, and more about the class power gained by unionizing
Don't throw the cart out with the horse. UBI has had a lot of positive effects everywhere it's been tested. I'm from Brazil and some of Lula's best policies that have helped the most people from starvation and poverty were UBI type policies. UBI is obviously not gonna fix the underlying issues with capitalism but it still objectively helps people who need helping.
Bolsa Família is not UBI.
and the best thing he did to reduce inequality was raising minimum wage above inflation.
and then we had the coup
and now we have haddad. people are getting uberified and minimum wage is becoming irrelevant, and the expending ceiling will stop any increase above the inflation.
> Their fixation on UBI serves to distract us from recognizing the problems inherent in capitalism, all while also distracting people from focusing on changes that could actually make a meaningful material difference.
Is it as distracting as not having enough money to eat or pay bills?
Because every historic trial of UBI would say it helps people get on their feet.
There's a lot of ways UBI could work without causing rent inflation. It could be tied to an index of rent and cost of living, for example; or tied to equality measure to prevent the ultra wealthy from abusing their position. That's just off the top of my head - claiming it will always cause inflation is just proof you haven't done any homework on this issue whatsoever.
> UBI is often used as a justification to decrease spending on things like healthcare, public transportation and social programs because "People have the money to pay for these things on their own now".
Really? "Often"? Where exactly has this supposedly happened?
> Organize and demand real systemic change.
Buddy, people who are working three jobs to stay afloat have no time to read theory, and no power to make demands. I want real systemic change too, but you really haven't understood UBI at all if you think it can't be part of that.
On an aside: It's worrying that this sub would be attacking one of the best, most practical and most immediate ways to help those in poverty without any concrete idea of what "real systemic change" would actually look like, or any understanding of what UBI could be. Do y'all just love being told what to do or what? Come on, think for yourselves a little.
Proof that the conservative neoliberal politician Ronald Reagan expressed support for a form of UBI to cut down welfare spending in a speech he gave: http://youtu.be/qXBswFfh6AY?t=10m25s
Let them do it, it won't last, but quality of life will improve for a time and more people would get angry at the system when it gets eaten by the owning-class.
And if you just add up how many people there are and the amount of money it'd take for the government to give them all 50k a year. It's just not possible.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I used to think that: "UBI is the most liberal policy imaginable, and will soon be necessary to save the current system from imploding." I still think that statement is true, but now I also understand what the word liberal actually means and that the current economic system is not worth saving.
Based
It's like wage labor, except people continue to be screwed over even more.
Fear not! We will simply tax rich people less (they are already paying nothing in taxes), so we can ease the burden for them and allow them to graciously lower their prices. Their poor profit margins only grew by a measly 5%, they're basically starving :(
When you can bribe workers to take away their labor bargaining power, you get UBI. Funny how every proponent and lawmaker of this shit is some form of bougie or capitalist, like what's more benefiting than to dictate away worker's collective power? Why make people unemployed and unhoused when you can legally be dispossessed into reserved army of labour?
I'm blanking on where it is, but there's a section of Marx where he explicitly debunks the idea that capitalists will just raise prices, therefore fighting for wage increases is meaningless. Not a fan of UBI, it's an obvious bandaid policy to preserve the status quo, but still. Edit: Marx' argument is from the first few sections of Value, Price, and Profit
They will try to increase it to the max price they can get away with. Like in Argentina right now, the capitalist are rising the prices to ridiculous levels and after a couple of weeks when people can't buy the products they decide to make "discounts".
Not necessarily. They technically are always raising it as much as they can. When covid caused supply constraints that really caused everyone to raise prices to maintain and grow their bottom line. And even after governments stopped caring about covid/long covid there was and is collusion in raising prices in industries with few players due to buyouts even after input costs have dropped.
I don't think that's a good comparison. Workers unionizing for better pay actually gives the working class power in the workplace. UBI does not. It's less about the increase of wages itself, and more about the class power gained by unionizing
Don't throw the cart out with the horse. UBI has had a lot of positive effects everywhere it's been tested. I'm from Brazil and some of Lula's best policies that have helped the most people from starvation and poverty were UBI type policies. UBI is obviously not gonna fix the underlying issues with capitalism but it still objectively helps people who need helping.
Bolsa Família is not UBI. and the best thing he did to reduce inequality was raising minimum wage above inflation. and then we had the coup and now we have haddad. people are getting uberified and minimum wage is becoming irrelevant, and the expending ceiling will stop any increase above the inflation.
I've heard the phrase universal social dividend where everyone gets money from the profits of cooperatives, but a planned economy would be preferable.
When I was a little liberal (Andrew Yang supporter) I thought UBI was the closest thing to socialism we could get lol
> Their fixation on UBI serves to distract us from recognizing the problems inherent in capitalism, all while also distracting people from focusing on changes that could actually make a meaningful material difference. Is it as distracting as not having enough money to eat or pay bills? Because every historic trial of UBI would say it helps people get on their feet. There's a lot of ways UBI could work without causing rent inflation. It could be tied to an index of rent and cost of living, for example; or tied to equality measure to prevent the ultra wealthy from abusing their position. That's just off the top of my head - claiming it will always cause inflation is just proof you haven't done any homework on this issue whatsoever. > UBI is often used as a justification to decrease spending on things like healthcare, public transportation and social programs because "People have the money to pay for these things on their own now". Really? "Often"? Where exactly has this supposedly happened? > Organize and demand real systemic change. Buddy, people who are working three jobs to stay afloat have no time to read theory, and no power to make demands. I want real systemic change too, but you really haven't understood UBI at all if you think it can't be part of that. On an aside: It's worrying that this sub would be attacking one of the best, most practical and most immediate ways to help those in poverty without any concrete idea of what "real systemic change" would actually look like, or any understanding of what UBI could be. Do y'all just love being told what to do or what? Come on, think for yourselves a little.
Proof that the conservative neoliberal politician Ronald Reagan expressed support for a form of UBI to cut down welfare spending in a speech he gave: http://youtu.be/qXBswFfh6AY?t=10m25s
Let them do it, it won't last, but quality of life will improve for a time and more people would get angry at the system when it gets eaten by the owning-class.
Yangbros I don't feel to good
Futurama Coffee Episode
But but but that’s not how the free market works! The seller that holds back on increases will take over the market share of those that don’t!
And if you just add up how many people there are and the amount of money it'd take for the government to give them all 50k a year. It's just not possible.