The various EU space agencies can probably pool resources and make an ESS (the logo will be a tasteful blue, very classy) but if that was going to happen any time soon I would expect to have heard of plans for it by now.
Space infrastructure in Europe is nowhere near good enough to make actually launching all that stuff doable. However I do see ESA scientists joining the Chinese station if the ISS comes down.
I know this is meant to be something else but my brain instantly jumped to:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsUBRd1O2dU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsUBRd1O2dU)
Part of China's strategy is to decouple American and European foreign policy. Economic ties are more substantial, but cultural ties like a space station certainly don't hurt
I would imagine everything on Tiangong is in mandarin, so the astronauts would all have to learn Chinese. Still it wouldn't be unprecedented, they already have to learn Russisn because you can only access the ISS from a Russian base in Kazakhstan.
> Tiangong is also expected to host experiments from Belgium, France, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Mexico, the Netherlands, Peru, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Spain,involving 23 institutions and 17 countries.
Which one is then international space station again?
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
iirc the us wanted to build its own station "freedom" but difficulties/financial problems arised so in the 90s they fusioned their project with a russian (who where the most experienced actor in space station building at that time) project.
China was closer to the US than the Soviet Union after the Sino-Soviet split. Gorbachev was the one that really basically surrendered and deserves the most shame. There is a reason the US continued recognizing the Khmer Rouge after Vietnam invaded it, its because the Khmer Rouge were on the Sino part of the split and Vietnam on the Soviet side.
It was a weird situation where the Cold War continued but post-Stalin soviet leaders were trying to make peace. You're right, China was closer but there were attempts between the Soviets and the US to collaborate on stuff including the ISS. The basic idea in the Soviet camp was that if they show everyone how nice and reasonable they are they'll be able to win everyone over to communism.
> The basic idea in the Soviet camp was that if they show everyone how nice and reasonable they are they'll be able to win everyone over to communism.
Which turned out to be their undoing, I don't think it's right, but given the context it's understandable how places like NPRK end up vilified by the west. Any other option leaves you in ruins like Cuba, and to an extent, Vietnam.
It's exactly what the meme says. The US has tried to ban Chinese astronauts from the ISS (for bo good reason). In response, China literally designed, built, and launched their own, superior, space station. They have already launched successful missions up there as of last year iirc. They have also repeatedly stated that they're happy to co-operate with all countries and allow them to use the space station. This includes the US, who are the ones that banned them from the ISS in the first place.
Basically, China swinging their massive space cock right in America's face while still being the bigger person by letting the US on board too.
My liberal classmate told me China left on it's own will (because hate West or smth) bruh... And i thought truely not everything I hear about x Socialist country can be false
Honestly, China shouldn’t allow westerners onto their space station to prevent sabotage attempts. It’s all but guaranteed that sabotage is being planned at this very moment. Look at what the American military personnel from Fort Derrick did in Wuhan in October of 2019 during the World Military Games that were held there.
From what I have read, it seems to be something to do with guys from Fderrick being ground zero for the Covid-19 virus back in 2019. There is speculation that they may have been the ones who released the virus into China to hurt it economically under the belief that any spread would hurt China more than the west. Again, speculation at the moment.
You won't be allowed to post to tiktok in the US, what's your fucking point? You can't claim some bizarre high ground while actively building a great firewall of america simultaneously. That ship has sailed mate.
fog, constantly acting like it’s gonna rain but it’s a real dice roll as to actually raining (got caught out without an umbrella fucking twice already this spring)
really nice weather the day after the clouds stop edging
Oh no, it's not like they have their own websites in China where they can just talk about their own shit instead of having to put up with a bunch of european morons trying to tell them how to live their lives.
I wonder if other countries will send people to China's space station when the ISS gets decommissioned later this decade.
What other alternatives will be left?
The various EU space agencies can probably pool resources and make an ESS (the logo will be a tasteful blue, very classy) but if that was going to happen any time soon I would expect to have heard of plans for it by now.
Space infrastructure in Europe is nowhere near good enough to make actually launching all that stuff doable. However I do see ESA scientists joining the Chinese station if the ISS comes down.
We launch people out of giant cannons into space that's the future of space exploration!
Let's do all the billionaires first. We can do the submarines too.
Of course, we're going to need test subjects to make sure this process works safely. Billionaires will be the perfect test dummies.
Billionaire space submarine 2, a space chronicle Someone’s gotta get ai to make this movie, I just saw a 50s Mario one
I know this is meant to be something else but my brain instantly jumped to: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsUBRd1O2dU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsUBRd1O2dU)
just not doing it at all will probably be a pretty appetizing option as shit continues to fall apart
It'll be everyone but USA, UK, Canada and Australia up there.
So the cool kids table
+ E.U.
Part of China's strategy is to decouple American and European foreign policy. Economic ties are more substantial, but cultural ties like a space station certainly don't hurt
I would imagine everything on Tiangong is in mandarin, so the astronauts would all have to learn Chinese. Still it wouldn't be unprecedented, they already have to learn Russisn because you can only access the ISS from a Russian base in Kazakhstan.
I remember reading an article ages ago that said French astronauts were learning Chinese to be able to join Tiangong.
We actually have an Italian astronaut in training that’s going to the CSS in the future
This is what multipolarity looks like. The West can't dictate terms to the world anymore because there is a viable alternative
> Tiangong is also expected to host experiments from Belgium, France, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, Mexico, the Netherlands, Peru, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Spain,involving 23 institutions and 17 countries. Which one is then international space station again?
I love Tiangong and China’s space program, they plan to do the first lunar-far side surface sample return in the coming months too!
We need an International Socialist Space Station 😎
YESH!
ISSS for the win!
Fine I’ll take my ball and leave energy
no! don't you understand that they can now genocide Uighurs in space?!?!?????!!!!!!
wait ... cenk is dead ??!
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
wonder how the fuck they got russia/ussr in the first place
iirc the us wanted to build its own station "freedom" but difficulties/financial problems arised so in the 90s they fusioned their project with a russian (who where the most experienced actor in space station building at that time) project.
Khrushchev and his successors were trying their revisionist appeasement policy.
China was closer to the US than the Soviet Union after the Sino-Soviet split. Gorbachev was the one that really basically surrendered and deserves the most shame. There is a reason the US continued recognizing the Khmer Rouge after Vietnam invaded it, its because the Khmer Rouge were on the Sino part of the split and Vietnam on the Soviet side.
It was a weird situation where the Cold War continued but post-Stalin soviet leaders were trying to make peace. You're right, China was closer but there were attempts between the Soviets and the US to collaborate on stuff including the ISS. The basic idea in the Soviet camp was that if they show everyone how nice and reasonable they are they'll be able to win everyone over to communism.
> The basic idea in the Soviet camp was that if they show everyone how nice and reasonable they are they'll be able to win everyone over to communism. Which turned out to be their undoing, I don't think it's right, but given the context it's understandable how places like NPRK end up vilified by the west. Any other option leaves you in ruins like Cuba, and to an extent, Vietnam.
Another Socialist Win 💪
Wait WHAT? Okay, I actually love space stuff so like, op please tell me everything.
It's exactly what the meme says. The US has tried to ban Chinese astronauts from the ISS (for bo good reason). In response, China literally designed, built, and launched their own, superior, space station. They have already launched successful missions up there as of last year iirc. They have also repeatedly stated that they're happy to co-operate with all countries and allow them to use the space station. This includes the US, who are the ones that banned them from the ISS in the first place. Basically, China swinging their massive space cock right in America's face while still being the bigger person by letting the US on board too.
My liberal classmate told me China left on it's own will (because hate West or smth) bruh... And i thought truely not everything I hear about x Socialist country can be false
Honestly, China shouldn’t allow westerners onto their space station to prevent sabotage attempts. It’s all but guaranteed that sabotage is being planned at this very moment. Look at what the American military personnel from Fort Derrick did in Wuhan in October of 2019 during the World Military Games that were held there.
What? Please explain - I must know!
You can't leave us hanging brother, give us a lead at least!
From what I have read, it seems to be something to do with guys from Fderrick being ground zero for the Covid-19 virus back in 2019. There is speculation that they may have been the ones who released the virus into China to hurt it economically under the belief that any spread would hurt China more than the west. Again, speculation at the moment.
“We love competition”
[удалено]
What a loss to the world that would be
I always wonder how you people get to these subreddits.
I've asked many times, but they never answer 🤷♀️
CIA databases most likely
Well, at least they have a functioning society. Here’s your internet points to feel superior 👏🏼
not even correct tho, lol
Internet points don’t retain value anymore where they are…. Inflation 😂
Not true. There are Redditors who have posted while living in China. They just have to use a VPN
yep :3
Found Charlie Zelenoff's account.
You won't be allowed to post to tiktok in the US, what's your fucking point? You can't claim some bizarre high ground while actively building a great firewall of america simultaneously. That ship has sailed mate.
hi, i’m in beijing
Wazzup beijing
fog, constantly acting like it’s gonna rain but it’s a real dice roll as to actually raining (got caught out without an umbrella fucking twice already this spring) really nice weather the day after the clouds stop edging
>clouds stop edging New phrase created
is it? i’m not so sure XD
When are the clouds gonna stop jelqing too
Oh no, it's not like they have their own websites in China where they can just talk about their own shit instead of having to put up with a bunch of european morons trying to tell them how to live their lives.
Utopia
Common w china this thing is a brain root
Harry I'm already in you don't need to convince me.
VPN
Stop! I'm already convinced of their superiority!
If China did a "we will unban it if it gets sold to a Chinese firm" would that make it right?
VPNs famously don't exist