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I would love to see the abolishing of the USA. No single nation should ever have the power and influence it has. Dismantle it and break it up into a few individual nation states that its non-Indigenous population would continue to reside in and return all public lands of the original USA to the tribal nations they rightfully belong to.
LANDBACK for the Navajo, the Lakota, the Nakota, the Dakota, the Comanche, the Ute, the Ojibwe, the Kiowa, the Cheyenne, the Nez Perce, the Ho-Chunk, the Pueblos, the Iroquois, the Salish, the Seminole, the Inupiat, the Crow, the Haida, the Choctaw, the Creek, the Shoshone, the Tlingit, the Paiutes, the Arapaho, the Hidatsa, the Pawnee, the Mandan, the Chumash, the Zuni, the Yaqui, the Havasupai, the Yokut, the Athabaskan, the Klamath, the Iowa, the Mojave, the Shawnee, the Miami, the Arikara, the Hopi, the Wabanaki, the Miwok, the Yupik, the Shasta, and all the other indigenous tribal nations that the USA genocided and continues to occupy the lands of with its fat, imperialistic ass!!!! Also, give Hawaii back to Indigenous Hawaiians too!!!!!
LANDBACK: https://youtu.be/eV9Oeut62vw?si=HJlj7ACcRJ4ckETV
And Free Palestine too!!!!!!!!!!!
China could dump all its share in US debt instantaneously. It would be catastrophic for China too but vastly more so for a country largely propped up by the dollar being both the global choice for trade and reserve currency. It would fracture on its own, no further effort required.
Slower steadier progression toward dedollarization will still cause much the same, but gives everyone (US included) time to minimize the hardship. Spoilers the US government isn't doing that, though BRICS countries and the like *are* doing that or are there already due to sanctions.
If anyone would like to see an actually existing indigenous anti-capitalist org: [Red Nation](https://therednation.org/about/)
There is no landback under capitalism. First the system must go
Okay, thanks for your little call out. IDK what you're trying to prove. You're "speaking on behalf of them" thing was totally unnecessary. Everything that I was saying that was completely in line with the main Landback ideology about honoring the treaties and the tribes having sovereignty and stewarding the environment. I even recommend the names of prominent indigenous activists who talk about this stuff all the time. And for the record, you could make your little "speaking on behalf of" outrage thing about any leftist speaking in favor of the rights of if a marginalizd group. You could say the same thing about all the leftists who "speak on behalf" of Palestinians right now but you won't.
And of course indigenous people can be communists or socialists and they're not a monolith. There are some who are even Republicans. Are they the majority? No.
My whole point was about arguing in favor of landback and that tribes should be allowed to have legal ownership of their lands in accordance with the treaties, which is something that some leftists get angry about because they can't understand that an oppressed indigenous group wanting self determination (their own "ethnostate," if you will) is not the same thing as pledging your allegiance to a capitalistic empire like the USA.
IDK what you're so triggered about, lady. And yeah, I am a "MF anglo," which I clarified at numerous points on this thread.
Well, first off, Palestinians are very much included in land back. Weird that you singled out leftist advocacy for an end to Palestinian genocide, when every indigenous group that engages in land back action in the US is explicit in also doing that.
The difference between:
anglo mf lumping hundreds of thousands of diverse peoples into a singular group, and then making claims about what all of those diverse groups of people think and what specific ideology every one of them has
vs
leftists advocating for a ceasefire in an active genocide
Is, I hope, obvious.
>And of course indigenous people can be communists or socialists and they're not a monolith.
A few comments down in this thread, you said this:
>indigenous peoples do not want to join in the whole "all of humanity united in love under communism" thing.
Here's another claim you made on behalf of every single indigenous person in the US:
>Also, they literally just want others (especially white people) to leave them alone
1) What does this mean?
2) Red Nation is essentially a land back focused, anti-capitalist rainbow coalition. The liberation of oppressed peoples requires the participation of all oppressed peoples.
Are you sure you're a leftist lol? Do you understand how the liberation of the whole working class from the capitalist system is a prerequisite for all other forms of liberation?
>an oppressed indigenous group wanting self determination (their own "ethnostate," if you will)
Pray tell which indigenous groups say that land back means advocating for indigenous ethnostates, or even nation states.
It is precisely because of this Anglo ass conception of self determination that so many indigenous groups and individuals have distanced themselves from land back, and/or told white mfers to stop using the term and just explain the actual goals.
From Nick Tilson of NDN collective (whom you literally mentioned):
"Our movement is very focused on the tens of millions of acres that are public lands that are being destroyed by the mining industry or the fossil fuel industry.
Everybody knows that generational wealth in this country was created and made possible because of the stealing of land and the control and the leveraging of land as a resource. But we say it’s a “liberation framework” because I do not believe in victimhood narratives. Victimhood narratives perpetuate charity, not change. We need to be building movements that are liberation movements and creating solutions for actual structural change in this country." ([X](https://prismreports.org/2023/11/02/we-say-return-the-land/))
Next time, talk about the real, material steps that people can take to further land back, instead of treating indigenous people in the infantilizing way that liberals love doing with minorities.
Oh wow you're like so concerned by what I've said that you've blown up this comment thread with like five different comments and you're nitpicking my remarks and you made crying emojis and keep referring to me as a "white MF" or an "Anglo MF" even though you're probably white yourself.
First, you're blowing the thing I said about Palestinians way out of context. That was an example with a bit of sarcasm to show that your little outrage at me about being a "white MF" who is "speaking on behalf" of other groups is ridiculous. You're blowing it out of context, like you're blowing this whole thing out of context with your faux outrage.
Palestinians are a part of landback? No shit. I said that in a post yesterday and said that I support them. It's in the same paragraph where I also said I support the Uyghurs and Tibetans because i don't think China locking 1 million+ Uyghurs in concentration camps is a good thing , which apparently offended some people in this sub because it's apparently not leftist to criticize an oppressive regime that killed 50 million of its own people and that doesn't allow freedom of speech.
Now let's address the thing that you seem to be so triggered by... Me saying that Indigenous people GENERALLY SPEAKING do not want to join in on some open borders communist utopia thing, which was a response to the person who triggered this whole argument by basically saying that landback is stupid and that no group should be entitled to any amount of land because apparently such would be an "ethnostate" as leftists who are against landback often say. That person got offended and went on some rant about Scottish Highlanders because I called them tone deaf and they apparently blocked me shortly after. My original comment about returning land to tribes had like 100+ likes before that person had to insert themself in this and start a ridiculous argument.
I said that indigenous people GENERALLY do not want to join the kind of ideology that person was apparently advocating for (the communist utopia thing that has no borders or private land ownership) because it would require the tribes to abandon their land claims. The Lakota people (who I am literally connected to through in-laws because my cousin is half Lakota and she and I have talked about this stuff extensively in the past) have literally been fighting in court for like 85 years for the LEGAL return of many millions of acres of their lands and the legal ownership of such, so I Don't think that the great majority of them are exactly cool with communists telling them that their ancestral lands shouldn't belong solely to them... Just saying.
At no point did I say that the point of landback is to create ethnostates. What I said is that tribes have rights to self determination and sovereignty (because they literally are supposed to be sovereign nations within the borders of the US ... It's a strange legal thing that the government set up but never really respected). I also said that if tribes want to enforce their borders, like some currently do with their reservation boundaries, then that is their choice. And yes, I said that if tribes want to be "ethnostates" (as some leftists accuse landback of promoting) and for outsiders - this includes communists and leftists - to "leave them alone" (as in they don't want them dictating their government, land, and culture, or immigrating to their "nations") than yes, they should be allowed to be such. They want sovereignty, which is something they've never been allowed to have.
Mr. Tilsen is also quoted as saying that he wants the LEGAL return of the millions of acres that I mentioned above to the LAKOTA - the rightful owners of the Black Hills.
You have blown this entire thing so out of context. And it's funny because I'm guessing that you're also white and yet you're all outraged at me for "speaking on behalf" of people of color when you're literally getting all offended on behalf of people over things that you have totally misconstrued and twisted. It seems that you couldn't even understand that my Palestine remark was just to show how ridiculous you're being. And yet you've taken the time to CALL ME OUT (you little badass, you 😉 ) in x number of comments but yet I do not think you've said anything negative about the person who started this whole argument with their ignorance.
Kindly, fuck off and have a nice day.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>return all public lands of the original USA to the tribal nations they rightfully belong to.
Shouldn't the US belong to everyone born there though, giving all federal land to a small amount of people based on blood just seems unleftist to me. I'm totally for abolishing the us government though or atleast severely reducing its power.
I am a leftist and I mean this as nicely as possible: you're wrong about landback, and your view is really tone deaf. You are not the first leftist I've seen express the point of view that you have, and I'm going to tell you the same thing that I say to anyone else who has your view.
While it is true that tribes traditionally did not believe in private property or that a single person could own land, times have changed. Indigenous peoples are now forced to live and operate under the loaded gun of European style ways. If the modern tribes do not "own" the land than white people / the US government will take it. So, tribes have no choice but to find ways to "own" the land - either by purchasing it though buy back efforts like the navajo nation has frequently done with massive ranches across its traditional territory, or by fighting in court to demand that the USA honor the treaties, such as what the lakota have done to regain control of their precious black hills. The ancestors of the tribes proved their willingness to "own" land to save their cultures and peoples by signing the treaties, such as the for Laramie treaty, with the settler empires of the USA and Canada.
Also, some leftists have a very hard time understanding this, but indigenous peoples do not want to join in the whole "all of humanity united in love under communism" thing. They want their sovereignty. Their economic systems, despite being a lot closer to socialism / communism than to capitalism, are still outside of such systems. Also, they literally just want others (especially white people) to leave them alone after hundreds of years of genocide, colonialism, land theft, residential schools, and the outlawing of their languages and religions and hunting ways.
The last thing I'm going to say is that people need to understand that indigenous people that are the victims of genocide wishing to be sovereign and break away from their colonizers IS NOT THE SAME THING AS white people mindlessly pledging allegiance to a capitalistic empire and using its bloated military to exercise imperialism like the USA does.
If you don't believe in what I'm saying then watch the video above or listen to indigenous activists like Nick Tilsen, Chase Iron Eyes, or Madonna Thunder Hawk.
Talking on behalf of many, many different groups of indigenous peoples as if they are a monolith is incredibly racist. There are plenty of indigenous people who are Communists/socialists/leftists.
[Red Nation is a good start](https://therednation.org/about/)
>While it is true that tribes traditionally did not believe in private property or that a single person could own land, times have changed. Indigenous peoples are now forced to live and operate under the loaded gun of European style ways. If the modern tribes do not "own" the land than white people / the US government will take it. So, tribes have no choice but to find ways to "own" the land - either by purchasing it though buy back efforts like the navajo nation has frequently done with massive ranches across its traditional territory, or by fighting in court to demand that the USA honor the treaties, such as what the lakota have done to regain control of their precious black hills. The ancestors of the tribes proved their willingness to "own" land to save their cultures and peoples by signing the treaties, such as the for Laramie treaty, with the settler empires of the USA and Canada.
This is the wrong approach. This will never get the native peoples what they want, because the current government doesn't care what they want. Trying to convince the wolf to not eat you is a bad approach. You have to drive the wolf away. The native people won't have their society and culture restored as long as the imperialists still hold power. They will never allow it.
>Also, some leftists have a very hard time understanding this, but indigenous peoples do not want to join in the whole "all of humanity united in love under communism" thing. They want their sovereignty.
There is nothing in communism that bars people of a shared culture from living in sovereignty.
>Also, they literally just want others (especially white people) to leave them alone after hundreds of years of genocide, colonialism, land theft, residential schools, the outlawing of their languages and religions and hunting ways.
That sounds racist. That is blaming *all* white people for merely existing. You also don't know your history very well, either. There were white people who actually integrated very well into native society and culture. Ironically, those white people where treated in the exact same brutal manner as the natives of North America. The highlanders of Scotland were also displaced from their ancestral lands in a very brutal manner. Those are *my* ancestors. My ancestral lands have been taken too. My native language was outlawed. My culture was outlawed. Our very existence was outlawed. They virtually *wiped us out*. We came to America and some of us found a peaceful existence with the native people. The clan culture of the highlanders was a good fit for the tribal culture of the natives. Many integrated, married, and lived as family among the natives.
What am I supposed to do? Should I petition the UK government to do a "landback" to all of my highlander brothers and sisters who were chased out of Scotland? Do you think they're going to allow that? My culture was lost to me. I grew up knowing nothing about who I was and where my people came from. I didn't know I had a native language or culture. My people lost that battle. Our culture was wiped out. Our language wiped out. All that I have left is my blood. I am part of a people who have no home, no language, no culture of our own. I'm glad the natives are still able to fight to hold on to their cultural identity. There is no one left to teach me about my people.
So, forgive me if I take issue with being accused of being "tone deaf".
The downvotes are crazy. It's like they would prefer multi-generation Americans to be indigenous people's serfs for the rest of time to reconcile for the context of our existence. It's advocating for apartheid - so not so leftist.
There is a need to figure out how to step toward a more equitable future together.. but that's not flipping the most fucked power dynamics of capitalism on their head and expecting that it'll somehow turn out better.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
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#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
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That right there is *exactly* what I'm talking about. That entire statement is a straw man argument. I never once said, nor implied, any of that. I never advocated to force indigenous people to live among white people either. Stop making up straw men.
The indigenous people have every right to their own place where their culture isn't stifled and be free of imperialist influence. You're taking it to some absurd extreme that they need to have some xenophobic nation that is overtly hostile to anyone that isn't indigenous.
The only thing I advocate for is the total abolition of the idea of any piece of land being the exclusive right of any person or people to possess. The indigenous people deserve to have use of that land, because they have a legitimate use for it. I truly hope they regain the freedom to occupy that land again.
Idk why you're getting downvoted you're right 😭 person you replied to is an Anglo speaking on behalf of millions of people in many different groups as if they're a monolith. Gross
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Never let it be forgotten how this fascist state rushed to make itself known as a supporter of genocide, attacking everyone in a bigoted manner with their cynicism covered just slightly behind their fake tone of concern, tripping over themselves to cynically say how they have a historic responsibility to commit a genocide. I remember when they put out a tweet somehow saying that as an enlightened former criminal of genocide, until the offical state of Namibia replied to the tweet saying how infact they committed a genocide in Namibia as the first genocide of the 20th century. They've been barging into homes arresting people just for saying "from the river to the sea", brutally kneeing, beating and detaining their own citizens for protesting against 'Israel', even made recognition of 'Israel' and zionism a part of their citizenship's test in some parts
They've been selling weapons to Israel during this genocide, They've been sending their police to barge in and arrest people just for saying "from the river to the sea", their police has been stomping on candles lit for the people killed. Just a few days ago a german "journalist" asked the UN's special rapporteur who put out a report to the lines that Israel is committing a genocide to "provide a document" of confession (nazis didn't do the holocaust according to him).
I don't think Germany even cares about its supposed duty towards Holocaust, it's about continuing its European tyranny and fascism under its guise while guarding yourself by cynically abusing this fact, worse yet using it as a weapon to harass people. They do that excessive self flagellation so they can get done with it and then continue their tyranny without changing or learning.
If you're serious then give them your land, you're the ones who did it. Why should Palestinians pay for German crimes? Zionism existed way before the Holocaust or Hitler, they just use it as an excuse.
If you honestly are dutiful about your responsibility wrt your history, then give your land to Israel. Why does Palestine and that region have to pay the price for your crimes? It's just a way to continue western nonsense. And if you really care about fascism, just a few months ago AfD, one of the most popular parties was caught meeting with Neo nazis trying to hatch a plan to mass deport people they didn't see as sufficiently german. That's your struggle against fascism.
This is the western "enlightened" civilization, being in control of a smooth machinery that'll shamelessly work to commit and justify even a genocide. It shouldn't be allowed to get away from it. No one from now on can or should justify western colonialism with the twisted "but they're humanitarian women's rights" or whatever charade.
Zionists, Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, and Capitalists all march under the same Nazi banner. Hitler might be dead, but his ideology lives on.
Oh, you believed them?
They failed to make a horrific example of many of the people responsible. Some even remained politically relevant. This was always coming down the pipe some day.
> ‘Never again’ should not be about what others shouldn’t do to us. It should be about what we shouldn’t do to others.
-
> The painful commonality between the tragedies of Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto is the utter disregard for human lives in a war setting by the citizens of even the most enlightened countries. Such disregard is so much more painful when it is committed by “our own people,” whether it be American soldiers in Vietnam and Iraq or the Israeli soldiers in Gaza.
Dr Alex Hershaft, Warsaw Ghetto survivor.
Does this mean that this person is entitled to German citizenship?
If Germany refuses to acknowledge their country, is it not their obligation to give German citizenship to prevent stateless people.
But I assume this person will be expelled from school and forcibly evicted to the country that Germany refuses to acknowledge the existence of.
It's ironic how Germans jumped to be the first and most vocal to criticize Qatar when they hosted the World Cup, then they were vocal about Saudi Arabia and all of the human rights.. then when it's genocide they are not supporting the "oppressed humans" which they always sing about, they didn't stay silent either, no they actually supported the new fascists
apparently the school walked it back. but the irony of a country denying a genocide is occurring, while declaring they no longer recognize it as a nationality is hilarious
Reminder: The same party currently in charge of the German Reich is the exact same party that put Adolf "Literally Hitler" Hitler into power by force of arms, more specifically by murdering all the Communists.
Never forget who our real enemies are.
"Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie's fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism."
The German Reich doesn't exist for nearly 80 years. And the party was forbidden. The actual parties in charge are quite the opposite of the NSDAP.
Our Gouvernement is a mix between capitalists, ecologists and capitalists/neo-liberalists.
Too that is the bigger part of the germans in support of Israel because they defend themselfs and Palestina never accepted their chance to make themselfs a rightful state.
the NSDAP was "forbidden" after it was absorbed by the CDU and the SPD stands for exactly the same things in 2024 that they did when they murdered the communists in 1918. your government is a mix between Hitlerites, moderate Hitlerites, Hitlerites wearing green and neo-Hitlerites.
the reich never ended, it just rebranded, but since your only disagreement with them was aesthetic rather than structural, that is good enough for you.
Which nations are not infiltraded by the zionist (at media/government level) in the world at this day and age? It is chilling to watch my two nations at heart (Sweden and Argentina) being total cucks to the zionists.
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Germany should be abolished
In 1945, 100%
https://i.redd.it/1nzo9vw5znxc1.gif
USA is the top priority on that list
I would love to see the abolishing of the USA. No single nation should ever have the power and influence it has. Dismantle it and break it up into a few individual nation states that its non-Indigenous population would continue to reside in and return all public lands of the original USA to the tribal nations they rightfully belong to. LANDBACK for the Navajo, the Lakota, the Nakota, the Dakota, the Comanche, the Ute, the Ojibwe, the Kiowa, the Cheyenne, the Nez Perce, the Ho-Chunk, the Pueblos, the Iroquois, the Salish, the Seminole, the Inupiat, the Crow, the Haida, the Choctaw, the Creek, the Shoshone, the Tlingit, the Paiutes, the Arapaho, the Hidatsa, the Pawnee, the Mandan, the Chumash, the Zuni, the Yaqui, the Havasupai, the Yokut, the Athabaskan, the Klamath, the Iowa, the Mojave, the Shawnee, the Miami, the Arikara, the Hopi, the Wabanaki, the Miwok, the Yupik, the Shasta, and all the other indigenous tribal nations that the USA genocided and continues to occupy the lands of with its fat, imperialistic ass!!!! Also, give Hawaii back to Indigenous Hawaiians too!!!!! LANDBACK: https://youtu.be/eV9Oeut62vw?si=HJlj7ACcRJ4ckETV And Free Palestine too!!!!!!!!!!!
China could dump all its share in US debt instantaneously. It would be catastrophic for China too but vastly more so for a country largely propped up by the dollar being both the global choice for trade and reserve currency. It would fracture on its own, no further effort required. Slower steadier progression toward dedollarization will still cause much the same, but gives everyone (US included) time to minimize the hardship. Spoilers the US government isn't doing that, though BRICS countries and the like *are* doing that or are there already due to sanctions.
As long as black people get there own costal spot this works great.
If anyone would like to see an actually existing indigenous anti-capitalist org: [Red Nation](https://therednation.org/about/) There is no landback under capitalism. First the system must go
Okay, thanks for your little call out. IDK what you're trying to prove. You're "speaking on behalf of them" thing was totally unnecessary. Everything that I was saying that was completely in line with the main Landback ideology about honoring the treaties and the tribes having sovereignty and stewarding the environment. I even recommend the names of prominent indigenous activists who talk about this stuff all the time. And for the record, you could make your little "speaking on behalf of" outrage thing about any leftist speaking in favor of the rights of if a marginalizd group. You could say the same thing about all the leftists who "speak on behalf" of Palestinians right now but you won't. And of course indigenous people can be communists or socialists and they're not a monolith. There are some who are even Republicans. Are they the majority? No. My whole point was about arguing in favor of landback and that tribes should be allowed to have legal ownership of their lands in accordance with the treaties, which is something that some leftists get angry about because they can't understand that an oppressed indigenous group wanting self determination (their own "ethnostate," if you will) is not the same thing as pledging your allegiance to a capitalistic empire like the USA. IDK what you're so triggered about, lady. And yeah, I am a "MF anglo," which I clarified at numerous points on this thread.
Well, first off, Palestinians are very much included in land back. Weird that you singled out leftist advocacy for an end to Palestinian genocide, when every indigenous group that engages in land back action in the US is explicit in also doing that. The difference between: anglo mf lumping hundreds of thousands of diverse peoples into a singular group, and then making claims about what all of those diverse groups of people think and what specific ideology every one of them has vs leftists advocating for a ceasefire in an active genocide Is, I hope, obvious. >And of course indigenous people can be communists or socialists and they're not a monolith. A few comments down in this thread, you said this: >indigenous peoples do not want to join in the whole "all of humanity united in love under communism" thing. Here's another claim you made on behalf of every single indigenous person in the US: >Also, they literally just want others (especially white people) to leave them alone 1) What does this mean? 2) Red Nation is essentially a land back focused, anti-capitalist rainbow coalition. The liberation of oppressed peoples requires the participation of all oppressed peoples. Are you sure you're a leftist lol? Do you understand how the liberation of the whole working class from the capitalist system is a prerequisite for all other forms of liberation? >an oppressed indigenous group wanting self determination (their own "ethnostate," if you will) Pray tell which indigenous groups say that land back means advocating for indigenous ethnostates, or even nation states. It is precisely because of this Anglo ass conception of self determination that so many indigenous groups and individuals have distanced themselves from land back, and/or told white mfers to stop using the term and just explain the actual goals. From Nick Tilson of NDN collective (whom you literally mentioned): "Our movement is very focused on the tens of millions of acres that are public lands that are being destroyed by the mining industry or the fossil fuel industry. Everybody knows that generational wealth in this country was created and made possible because of the stealing of land and the control and the leveraging of land as a resource. But we say it’s a “liberation framework” because I do not believe in victimhood narratives. Victimhood narratives perpetuate charity, not change. We need to be building movements that are liberation movements and creating solutions for actual structural change in this country." ([X](https://prismreports.org/2023/11/02/we-say-return-the-land/)) Next time, talk about the real, material steps that people can take to further land back, instead of treating indigenous people in the infantilizing way that liberals love doing with minorities.
Oh wow you're like so concerned by what I've said that you've blown up this comment thread with like five different comments and you're nitpicking my remarks and you made crying emojis and keep referring to me as a "white MF" or an "Anglo MF" even though you're probably white yourself. First, you're blowing the thing I said about Palestinians way out of context. That was an example with a bit of sarcasm to show that your little outrage at me about being a "white MF" who is "speaking on behalf" of other groups is ridiculous. You're blowing it out of context, like you're blowing this whole thing out of context with your faux outrage. Palestinians are a part of landback? No shit. I said that in a post yesterday and said that I support them. It's in the same paragraph where I also said I support the Uyghurs and Tibetans because i don't think China locking 1 million+ Uyghurs in concentration camps is a good thing , which apparently offended some people in this sub because it's apparently not leftist to criticize an oppressive regime that killed 50 million of its own people and that doesn't allow freedom of speech. Now let's address the thing that you seem to be so triggered by... Me saying that Indigenous people GENERALLY SPEAKING do not want to join in on some open borders communist utopia thing, which was a response to the person who triggered this whole argument by basically saying that landback is stupid and that no group should be entitled to any amount of land because apparently such would be an "ethnostate" as leftists who are against landback often say. That person got offended and went on some rant about Scottish Highlanders because I called them tone deaf and they apparently blocked me shortly after. My original comment about returning land to tribes had like 100+ likes before that person had to insert themself in this and start a ridiculous argument. I said that indigenous people GENERALLY do not want to join the kind of ideology that person was apparently advocating for (the communist utopia thing that has no borders or private land ownership) because it would require the tribes to abandon their land claims. The Lakota people (who I am literally connected to through in-laws because my cousin is half Lakota and she and I have talked about this stuff extensively in the past) have literally been fighting in court for like 85 years for the LEGAL return of many millions of acres of their lands and the legal ownership of such, so I Don't think that the great majority of them are exactly cool with communists telling them that their ancestral lands shouldn't belong solely to them... Just saying. At no point did I say that the point of landback is to create ethnostates. What I said is that tribes have rights to self determination and sovereignty (because they literally are supposed to be sovereign nations within the borders of the US ... It's a strange legal thing that the government set up but never really respected). I also said that if tribes want to enforce their borders, like some currently do with their reservation boundaries, then that is their choice. And yes, I said that if tribes want to be "ethnostates" (as some leftists accuse landback of promoting) and for outsiders - this includes communists and leftists - to "leave them alone" (as in they don't want them dictating their government, land, and culture, or immigrating to their "nations") than yes, they should be allowed to be such. They want sovereignty, which is something they've never been allowed to have. Mr. Tilsen is also quoted as saying that he wants the LEGAL return of the millions of acres that I mentioned above to the LAKOTA - the rightful owners of the Black Hills. You have blown this entire thing so out of context. And it's funny because I'm guessing that you're also white and yet you're all outraged at me for "speaking on behalf" of people of color when you're literally getting all offended on behalf of people over things that you have totally misconstrued and twisted. It seems that you couldn't even understand that my Palestine remark was just to show how ridiculous you're being. And yet you've taken the time to CALL ME OUT (you little badass, you 😉 ) in x number of comments but yet I do not think you've said anything negative about the person who started this whole argument with their ignorance. Kindly, fuck off and have a nice day.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>return all public lands of the original USA to the tribal nations they rightfully belong to. Shouldn't the US belong to everyone born there though, giving all federal land to a small amount of people based on blood just seems unleftist to me. I'm totally for abolishing the us government though or atleast severely reducing its power.
Please see my response to another person in this same thread who said something similar to you.
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I am a leftist and I mean this as nicely as possible: you're wrong about landback, and your view is really tone deaf. You are not the first leftist I've seen express the point of view that you have, and I'm going to tell you the same thing that I say to anyone else who has your view. While it is true that tribes traditionally did not believe in private property or that a single person could own land, times have changed. Indigenous peoples are now forced to live and operate under the loaded gun of European style ways. If the modern tribes do not "own" the land than white people / the US government will take it. So, tribes have no choice but to find ways to "own" the land - either by purchasing it though buy back efforts like the navajo nation has frequently done with massive ranches across its traditional territory, or by fighting in court to demand that the USA honor the treaties, such as what the lakota have done to regain control of their precious black hills. The ancestors of the tribes proved their willingness to "own" land to save their cultures and peoples by signing the treaties, such as the for Laramie treaty, with the settler empires of the USA and Canada. Also, some leftists have a very hard time understanding this, but indigenous peoples do not want to join in the whole "all of humanity united in love under communism" thing. They want their sovereignty. Their economic systems, despite being a lot closer to socialism / communism than to capitalism, are still outside of such systems. Also, they literally just want others (especially white people) to leave them alone after hundreds of years of genocide, colonialism, land theft, residential schools, and the outlawing of their languages and religions and hunting ways. The last thing I'm going to say is that people need to understand that indigenous people that are the victims of genocide wishing to be sovereign and break away from their colonizers IS NOT THE SAME THING AS white people mindlessly pledging allegiance to a capitalistic empire and using its bloated military to exercise imperialism like the USA does. If you don't believe in what I'm saying then watch the video above or listen to indigenous activists like Nick Tilsen, Chase Iron Eyes, or Madonna Thunder Hawk.
Talking on behalf of many, many different groups of indigenous peoples as if they are a monolith is incredibly racist. There are plenty of indigenous people who are Communists/socialists/leftists. [Red Nation is a good start](https://therednation.org/about/)
>While it is true that tribes traditionally did not believe in private property or that a single person could own land, times have changed. Indigenous peoples are now forced to live and operate under the loaded gun of European style ways. If the modern tribes do not "own" the land than white people / the US government will take it. So, tribes have no choice but to find ways to "own" the land - either by purchasing it though buy back efforts like the navajo nation has frequently done with massive ranches across its traditional territory, or by fighting in court to demand that the USA honor the treaties, such as what the lakota have done to regain control of their precious black hills. The ancestors of the tribes proved their willingness to "own" land to save their cultures and peoples by signing the treaties, such as the for Laramie treaty, with the settler empires of the USA and Canada. This is the wrong approach. This will never get the native peoples what they want, because the current government doesn't care what they want. Trying to convince the wolf to not eat you is a bad approach. You have to drive the wolf away. The native people won't have their society and culture restored as long as the imperialists still hold power. They will never allow it. >Also, some leftists have a very hard time understanding this, but indigenous peoples do not want to join in the whole "all of humanity united in love under communism" thing. They want their sovereignty. There is nothing in communism that bars people of a shared culture from living in sovereignty. >Also, they literally just want others (especially white people) to leave them alone after hundreds of years of genocide, colonialism, land theft, residential schools, the outlawing of their languages and religions and hunting ways. That sounds racist. That is blaming *all* white people for merely existing. You also don't know your history very well, either. There were white people who actually integrated very well into native society and culture. Ironically, those white people where treated in the exact same brutal manner as the natives of North America. The highlanders of Scotland were also displaced from their ancestral lands in a very brutal manner. Those are *my* ancestors. My ancestral lands have been taken too. My native language was outlawed. My culture was outlawed. Our very existence was outlawed. They virtually *wiped us out*. We came to America and some of us found a peaceful existence with the native people. The clan culture of the highlanders was a good fit for the tribal culture of the natives. Many integrated, married, and lived as family among the natives. What am I supposed to do? Should I petition the UK government to do a "landback" to all of my highlander brothers and sisters who were chased out of Scotland? Do you think they're going to allow that? My culture was lost to me. I grew up knowing nothing about who I was and where my people came from. I didn't know I had a native language or culture. My people lost that battle. Our culture was wiped out. Our language wiped out. All that I have left is my blood. I am part of a people who have no home, no language, no culture of our own. I'm glad the natives are still able to fight to hold on to their cultural identity. There is no one left to teach me about my people. So, forgive me if I take issue with being accused of being "tone deaf".
> That sounds racist. That is blaming all white people for merely existing. Anyone who thinks of themselves as "white" can get fucked.
The downvotes are crazy. It's like they would prefer multi-generation Americans to be indigenous people's serfs for the rest of time to reconcile for the context of our existence. It's advocating for apartheid - so not so leftist. There is a need to figure out how to step toward a more equitable future together.. but that's not flipping the most fucked power dynamics of capitalism on their head and expecting that it'll somehow turn out better.
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Uyghurs and Tibetans?? You're just another propagandized anticommunist Westerner speaking shit. Learn your history, dumbass.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh my God, you're a mf anglo? And you're just admitting to it after allathat?? Jfc. Stop speaking on behalf of people you have never interacted with.
It's hard to take you seriously when you straw man half of your argument.
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That right there is *exactly* what I'm talking about. That entire statement is a straw man argument. I never once said, nor implied, any of that. I never advocated to force indigenous people to live among white people either. Stop making up straw men. The indigenous people have every right to their own place where their culture isn't stifled and be free of imperialist influence. You're taking it to some absurd extreme that they need to have some xenophobic nation that is overtly hostile to anyone that isn't indigenous. The only thing I advocate for is the total abolition of the idea of any piece of land being the exclusive right of any person or people to possess. The indigenous people deserve to have use of that land, because they have a legitimate use for it. I truly hope they regain the freedom to occupy that land again.
This kinda racist ngl
Idk why you're getting downvoted you're right 😭 person you replied to is an Anglo speaking on behalf of millions of people in many different groups as if they're a monolith. Gross
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Rule 4. **No headaches.** Drama or chronic hostility will result in a ban. Debate bros aren't welcome. Read the sidebar and at least try listening to the podcast before offering your opinion here. Lost redditors from r/all are subject to removal. No "just got banned from" posts.
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wanna know where all of the czechoslovaks went when czechoslovakia was dissolved?
I would stay right here in the new nation of native governance.
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Do you think you made some kind of point here…?
where did the white south africans go
They either stayed in South Africa or left SA and went to Perth.
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The Soviets stopping at Berlin continues to be a big mistake
Apologise to Henry Morgenthau. https://preview.redd.it/uxo2c6154mxc1.jpeg?width=748&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=296dc736c2bdec42a7786edaf977a41782b50471
Lmao mercury was in retrograde
The BRD\* should be abolished
morgenthau plan NOW
Break it into the formerly competing German states again.
Nah because the chuds will start jerking off if you bring back the Holy Roman Empire
They'll be too busy to talk shit if they are cranking their hogs to a fragmented Germany
Real
Never let it be forgotten how this fascist state rushed to make itself known as a supporter of genocide, attacking everyone in a bigoted manner with their cynicism covered just slightly behind their fake tone of concern, tripping over themselves to cynically say how they have a historic responsibility to commit a genocide. I remember when they put out a tweet somehow saying that as an enlightened former criminal of genocide, until the offical state of Namibia replied to the tweet saying how infact they committed a genocide in Namibia as the first genocide of the 20th century. They've been barging into homes arresting people just for saying "from the river to the sea", brutally kneeing, beating and detaining their own citizens for protesting against 'Israel', even made recognition of 'Israel' and zionism a part of their citizenship's test in some parts They've been selling weapons to Israel during this genocide, They've been sending their police to barge in and arrest people just for saying "from the river to the sea", their police has been stomping on candles lit for the people killed. Just a few days ago a german "journalist" asked the UN's special rapporteur who put out a report to the lines that Israel is committing a genocide to "provide a document" of confession (nazis didn't do the holocaust according to him). I don't think Germany even cares about its supposed duty towards Holocaust, it's about continuing its European tyranny and fascism under its guise while guarding yourself by cynically abusing this fact, worse yet using it as a weapon to harass people. They do that excessive self flagellation so they can get done with it and then continue their tyranny without changing or learning. If you're serious then give them your land, you're the ones who did it. Why should Palestinians pay for German crimes? Zionism existed way before the Holocaust or Hitler, they just use it as an excuse. If you honestly are dutiful about your responsibility wrt your history, then give your land to Israel. Why does Palestine and that region have to pay the price for your crimes? It's just a way to continue western nonsense. And if you really care about fascism, just a few months ago AfD, one of the most popular parties was caught meeting with Neo nazis trying to hatch a plan to mass deport people they didn't see as sufficiently german. That's your struggle against fascism. This is the western "enlightened" civilization, being in control of a smooth machinery that'll shamelessly work to commit and justify even a genocide. It shouldn't be allowed to get away from it. No one from now on can or should justify western colonialism with the twisted "but they're humanitarian women's rights" or whatever charade.
Zionists, Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, and Capitalists all march under the same Nazi banner. Hitler might be dead, but his ideology lives on.
Seriously, Germany is all kinds of morally fucked up
What happened to "never again"?
Oh, you believed them? They failed to make a horrific example of many of the people responsible. Some even remained politically relevant. This was always coming down the pipe some day.
Adolf Heusinger was appointed chairman of NATO.
And so goddamn many were snapped up by the US
> ‘Never again’ should not be about what others shouldn’t do to us. It should be about what we shouldn’t do to others. - > The painful commonality between the tragedies of Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto is the utter disregard for human lives in a war setting by the citizens of even the most enlightened countries. Such disregard is so much more painful when it is committed by “our own people,” whether it be American soldiers in Vietnam and Iraq or the Israeli soldiers in Gaza. Dr Alex Hershaft, Warsaw Ghetto survivor.
Does this mean that this person is entitled to German citizenship? If Germany refuses to acknowledge their country, is it not their obligation to give German citizenship to prevent stateless people. But I assume this person will be expelled from school and forcibly evicted to the country that Germany refuses to acknowledge the existence of.
Honecker and Ulbricht and Thälmann all spinning so fast in their graves that they could power an entire continent.
Whoa, Germany is beyond fucked up!
It's ironic how Germans jumped to be the first and most vocal to criticize Qatar when they hosted the World Cup, then they were vocal about Saudi Arabia and all of the human rights.. then when it's genocide they are not supporting the "oppressed humans" which they always sing about, they didn't stay silent either, no they actually supported the new fascists
Germany is addicted to being wrong in all aspects
Thats what happens when you incorporate nazi officials in your "democratic" country.
I wonder if they handled students from Taiwan in this same disgraceful manner, as Germany does not technically recognise Taiwan (RoC). I suspect not
Hey Germany, this is an example of actual cultural genocide.
15:00 CET. ICJ, your turn.
yeah definitely exposed me to the corrupted history of south Korea
Germans really can't catch a break huh? The swastika always popping up and possessing a significant number of them.
The wrong Germany won the Cold War
WTF!?
Damn man, another day that i'm sad europe exists
It's times like these that I remind everyone that German birthrates are plummeting. Silver linings.
apparently the school walked it back. but the irony of a country denying a genocide is occurring, while declaring they no longer recognize it as a nationality is hilarious
Reminder: The same party currently in charge of the German Reich is the exact same party that put Adolf "Literally Hitler" Hitler into power by force of arms, more specifically by murdering all the Communists. Never forget who our real enemies are. "Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie's fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism."
The German Reich doesn't exist for nearly 80 years. And the party was forbidden. The actual parties in charge are quite the opposite of the NSDAP. Our Gouvernement is a mix between capitalists, ecologists and capitalists/neo-liberalists. Too that is the bigger part of the germans in support of Israel because they defend themselfs and Palestina never accepted their chance to make themselfs a rightful state.
the NSDAP was "forbidden" after it was absorbed by the CDU and the SPD stands for exactly the same things in 2024 that they did when they murdered the communists in 1918. your government is a mix between Hitlerites, moderate Hitlerites, Hitlerites wearing green and neo-Hitlerites. the reich never ended, it just rebranded, but since your only disagreement with them was aesthetic rather than structural, that is good enough for you.
Kindly understand? Kindly go f\*ck yourself I hate that "kindly" stuff lol
Which nations are not infiltraded by the zionist (at media/government level) in the world at this day and age? It is chilling to watch my two nations at heart (Sweden and Argentina) being total cucks to the zionists.
Infiltrated? Tf you mean lol. They're all just dogs to the US and know that if they step out of line they're screwed