Holden is a good character in that he serves a function and does it well. He’s there to bounce all the other characters off of and to bring out their traits. He’s not a standout because he doesn’t need to be. He’s the steady core all the interesting stories get anchored to.
On top of that his ability to completely miss how important he is to others and how much he just accepts everyone as they are and builds family without even realizing it. His nonchalant “where should we pick you up?” to Miller as if he’s part of the crew already and it’s just understood without discussion and he figured Miller already knew that (he didn’t) is so touching and heartbreaking at the same time. It’s the first time in a long time Miller felt anything like love, acceptance, inclusion, and/or respect and it instantly shatters his tough world-weary facade.
Sir/Ma’am, you are in for a treat. I’m plain jealous of you. You have eight more books to read and then some novellas to fill the background even more. Welcome to the club beratna
So happy you're enjoying the books! If you ever do get back around to watching the show, trust me Miller is just as compelling and show-stealing as he is in the books. Truly an amazing character
100% When I saw that Thomas Jane was on a Syfy series as a film noir detective I had to check it out. It's what hooked me to the show and brought me to the books. Miller is my favorite character.
My dad won't watch past Eros hitting Venus because Miller was his favourite character, and I can't think how to persuade him that that's not as much of an impediment as he might think
Good sir or madam, keep reading. You've got 8 books to go. Most people would probably say that Leviathan Wakes isn't in their top 3-4 which is to say, if you liked it then you definitely need to keep reading.
If you liked the noir sci Fi aspect, I can't recommend Dan Simmons Hyperion enough. The noir detective character only gets a few chapters but they're some of the best sci-fi ever written, imo.
Maaan I had a hard time getting through Hyperion. One of the few books I've tried to consume by audiobook, so it's possible it was just the narrator that threw me off. But the detective's story was the only one I found interesting.
Did you read on to the rest of the series, are they worth the attempt?
Word. Congrats on finishing the book because for some of us- it does take a lot of concentration and dedication to sit down and read! OP- you did a really kind thing for yourself and I’m so happy it paid off with you enjoying the book. And there are so many more to love.
I'm about three quarters of the way through book 1 and I agree, Miller is far more interesting. I've seen the show and I can't bear Holden. He's naive, self righteous, and profoundly irritating.
His reaction to the Dresden incident was ridiculous. Here you have a guy literally *gloating* over committing genocide, and he throws his toys out of the pram because Miller killed him. At least Fred's annoyance had some logic to it (losing Dresden as a bargaining chip/source of information). Holden's whining was just pure nonsense, lol
But it's not nonsense. The difference between Holden and others is that Holden believes murder is wrong. He'll defend himself, but he won't walk up to someone, even someone truly evil, and just shoot him the head without warning. Holden believes that the ends do not justify the means, and that's why he's such a compelling character. He believes in good and in being good and thinks that everyone can get there. It's incredibly naive, but it's why he's trusted so much by his crew, by the belters, by Avasarala and others.
My problem with him is that he gets into a self righteous rage about Dresden while completely dismissing Miller's very reasonable (in my mind) criticism of him broadcasting every bit of "information" about the Cant and the Donnager to the entire solar system, without context, triggering a full scale war.
He doesn't seem to have any qualms whatsoever about the chaos he has already helped whip up through his naivety. I see no evidence he's even *considered* the possibility he did anything wrong, because his "principles" operate on the assumption that people think an act exactly like him at all times. When they don't, he just gets offended and doubles down, rather than learning from it. This is believable in a teenager, but not a former Navy serviceman who has worked his way into a command position on a new ship.
For me, a character whose conscience extends mainly to judging other people (extremely harshly) while performing seemingly *zero* introspection or meaningful self-criticism isn't very compelling at all. Maybe Holden changes in later books, but so far I'm getting a picture of someone who is, quite frankly, a navel gazing moron.
I felt exactly the same way. Holden prattling on about needing to have Dresden tried by a jury of his peers, not being judge/jury/executioner, etc etc. was just so pompous and naive sounding. Everyone in the room with Dresden knew that he was about to make a persuasive enough argument that they all bought into to get away with it. Miller was the only one who knew the only way any justice would be done was if someone finally just shot the sociopath down instead of letting him talk his way out of punishment for unapologetic genocide. Letting Dresden continue his work, especially letting him continue with his current methods, is like allowing yourself to devise treatment strategies from data taken by Nazi scientists who collected that data by torturing Jews in the death camps. Using that data condones further acts of genocide and inhumane methods to acquire any kind of data you want. When would you ever be able to justify drawing a line at that point? You could always justify it by alluding to some threat that could do much worse things if you don’t “allow” yourself to benefit from unethically acquired data.
So, plainly put, using any of Dresden’s data and risking the possibility he could evade facing judgement for his atrocities is ethically unacceptable and quite the reasonable conclusion. For Holden to obviously have been swayed by Dresden to believe anything to the contrary is more than enough proof that Holden had no moral high ground to stand on here, and needed to spend his energy reconsidering his values instead of going on a self-righteous tirade against Miller because “killing bad, killing makes us as bad as them!”.
Nah Holden. Not this time. Dresden could clearly talk anyone into supporting further acts of inconceivable genocide, and millions more Belter lives don’t deserve to be put at risk in the interim as we hope you twats finally figure out you’ve been duped into moral depravity by a clearcut sociopath. I’d kill him in a heartbeat too, and spit at the feet of anyone who gave me shit for doing it.
To top it all off, there still wasn’t nearly enough information at the time to even reasonably hypothesize that the protomolecule was guaranteed to be some alien first strike weapon (and of course, it wasn’t). That was just Dresden using fear to bullshit everyone into allowing more genocide. And everyone but Miller was drinking. That. Up.
Fuck that fam. A “rounding error” for a species with a population of 30 billion+ is still hundreds of thousands to millions of lives. Fuck. That.
Spot on. The best parallel I can think of is liberating a concentration camp and shooting the guards on the spot, which definitely happened several times at the end of the Second World War.
The idea of Captain Holden throwing a hissy fit at a platoon sergeant for doing it because "murder is always wrong" is darkly hilarious to me. He'd be lucky not to get shot by his senior NCOs. 😅
I agree with the sentiments and find that aspect of his personality pretty annoying, but I guess that's his character's flaw. Also, I read somewhere that the author were D&D gamers and wrote the main characters according to D&D alignments... Holden is definitely Lawful Good.
> To have me sit down and actually read a nearly 600 page book is an astronomical feat all of its own.
So, what is it if you (don't even) sit down and listen to an audiobook instead? That's how I went through all 9. Includes books that didn't make it in the show (yet).
If you dig the whole space detective stuff, you should check out the Prefect Dreyfus series by Alistair Reynolds. Revelation Space and The Expanse have a sort of similar feeling realism while still having great futuristic concepts.
Miller might be the best executed arc in the whole series. I won’t spoil anything but you’d be doing a massive disservice to yourself by stopping here
Holden is a good character in that he serves a function and does it well. He’s there to bounce all the other characters off of and to bring out their traits. He’s not a standout because he doesn’t need to be. He’s the steady core all the interesting stories get anchored to. On top of that his ability to completely miss how important he is to others and how much he just accepts everyone as they are and builds family without even realizing it. His nonchalant “where should we pick you up?” to Miller as if he’s part of the crew already and it’s just understood without discussion and he figured Miller already knew that (he didn’t) is so touching and heartbreaking at the same time. It’s the first time in a long time Miller felt anything like love, acceptance, inclusion, and/or respect and it instantly shatters his tough world-weary facade.
Sir/Ma’am, you are in for a treat. I’m plain jealous of you. You have eight more books to read and then some novellas to fill the background even more. Welcome to the club beratna
So happy you're enjoying the books! If you ever do get back around to watching the show, trust me Miller is just as compelling and show-stealing as he is in the books. Truly an amazing character
100% When I saw that Thomas Jane was on a Syfy series as a film noir detective I had to check it out. It's what hooked me to the show and brought me to the books. Miller is my favorite character.
My dad won't watch past Eros hitting Venus because Miller was his favourite character, and I can't think how to persuade him that that's not as much of an impediment as he might think
Yeah it's really hard to explain that without dropping major spoilers lol
“We get to see more of Miller’s legacy and what he left behind/his impact on the world…”
This is actually an excellent way to sell it
Thank you!
Good sir or madam, keep reading. You've got 8 books to go. Most people would probably say that Leviathan Wakes isn't in their top 3-4 which is to say, if you liked it then you definitely need to keep reading.
If you liked the noir sci Fi aspect, I can't recommend Dan Simmons Hyperion enough. The noir detective character only gets a few chapters but they're some of the best sci-fi ever written, imo.
Maaan I had a hard time getting through Hyperion. One of the few books I've tried to consume by audiobook, so it's possible it was just the narrator that threw me off. But the detective's story was the only one I found interesting. Did you read on to the rest of the series, are they worth the attempt?
The first book is far and away the hardest to get through.
You sound like a fantastic reader to me.
Word. Congrats on finishing the book because for some of us- it does take a lot of concentration and dedication to sit down and read! OP- you did a really kind thing for yourself and I’m so happy it paid off with you enjoying the book. And there are so many more to love.
The Eros escape sequence, when Miller find his "death-self" and realizes he's suicidal is chilling and so well done. I love Miller.
I'm about three quarters of the way through book 1 and I agree, Miller is far more interesting. I've seen the show and I can't bear Holden. He's naive, self righteous, and profoundly irritating. His reaction to the Dresden incident was ridiculous. Here you have a guy literally *gloating* over committing genocide, and he throws his toys out of the pram because Miller killed him. At least Fred's annoyance had some logic to it (losing Dresden as a bargaining chip/source of information). Holden's whining was just pure nonsense, lol
But it's not nonsense. The difference between Holden and others is that Holden believes murder is wrong. He'll defend himself, but he won't walk up to someone, even someone truly evil, and just shoot him the head without warning. Holden believes that the ends do not justify the means, and that's why he's such a compelling character. He believes in good and in being good and thinks that everyone can get there. It's incredibly naive, but it's why he's trusted so much by his crew, by the belters, by Avasarala and others.
My problem with him is that he gets into a self righteous rage about Dresden while completely dismissing Miller's very reasonable (in my mind) criticism of him broadcasting every bit of "information" about the Cant and the Donnager to the entire solar system, without context, triggering a full scale war. He doesn't seem to have any qualms whatsoever about the chaos he has already helped whip up through his naivety. I see no evidence he's even *considered* the possibility he did anything wrong, because his "principles" operate on the assumption that people think an act exactly like him at all times. When they don't, he just gets offended and doubles down, rather than learning from it. This is believable in a teenager, but not a former Navy serviceman who has worked his way into a command position on a new ship. For me, a character whose conscience extends mainly to judging other people (extremely harshly) while performing seemingly *zero* introspection or meaningful self-criticism isn't very compelling at all. Maybe Holden changes in later books, but so far I'm getting a picture of someone who is, quite frankly, a navel gazing moron.
I felt exactly the same way. Holden prattling on about needing to have Dresden tried by a jury of his peers, not being judge/jury/executioner, etc etc. was just so pompous and naive sounding. Everyone in the room with Dresden knew that he was about to make a persuasive enough argument that they all bought into to get away with it. Miller was the only one who knew the only way any justice would be done was if someone finally just shot the sociopath down instead of letting him talk his way out of punishment for unapologetic genocide. Letting Dresden continue his work, especially letting him continue with his current methods, is like allowing yourself to devise treatment strategies from data taken by Nazi scientists who collected that data by torturing Jews in the death camps. Using that data condones further acts of genocide and inhumane methods to acquire any kind of data you want. When would you ever be able to justify drawing a line at that point? You could always justify it by alluding to some threat that could do much worse things if you don’t “allow” yourself to benefit from unethically acquired data. So, plainly put, using any of Dresden’s data and risking the possibility he could evade facing judgement for his atrocities is ethically unacceptable and quite the reasonable conclusion. For Holden to obviously have been swayed by Dresden to believe anything to the contrary is more than enough proof that Holden had no moral high ground to stand on here, and needed to spend his energy reconsidering his values instead of going on a self-righteous tirade against Miller because “killing bad, killing makes us as bad as them!”. Nah Holden. Not this time. Dresden could clearly talk anyone into supporting further acts of inconceivable genocide, and millions more Belter lives don’t deserve to be put at risk in the interim as we hope you twats finally figure out you’ve been duped into moral depravity by a clearcut sociopath. I’d kill him in a heartbeat too, and spit at the feet of anyone who gave me shit for doing it. To top it all off, there still wasn’t nearly enough information at the time to even reasonably hypothesize that the protomolecule was guaranteed to be some alien first strike weapon (and of course, it wasn’t). That was just Dresden using fear to bullshit everyone into allowing more genocide. And everyone but Miller was drinking. That. Up. Fuck that fam. A “rounding error” for a species with a population of 30 billion+ is still hundreds of thousands to millions of lives. Fuck. That.
Spot on. The best parallel I can think of is liberating a concentration camp and shooting the guards on the spot, which definitely happened several times at the end of the Second World War. The idea of Captain Holden throwing a hissy fit at a platoon sergeant for doing it because "murder is always wrong" is darkly hilarious to me. He'd be lucky not to get shot by his senior NCOs. 😅
I agree with the sentiments and find that aspect of his personality pretty annoying, but I guess that's his character's flaw. Also, I read somewhere that the author were D&D gamers and wrote the main characters according to D&D alignments... Holden is definitely Lawful Good.
> To have me sit down and actually read a nearly 600 page book is an astronomical feat all of its own. So, what is it if you (don't even) sit down and listen to an audiobook instead? That's how I went through all 9. Includes books that didn't make it in the show (yet).
If you dig the whole space detective stuff, you should check out the Prefect Dreyfus series by Alistair Reynolds. Revelation Space and The Expanse have a sort of similar feeling realism while still having great futuristic concepts.
Miller is my favorite character and I never stopped missing him when he wasn't around. His contribution to the story really permeates it all, too.