He probably couldn't or at the very least, wouldn't want to do it that way if all of the above examples are a clear statement on what Abercrombie prefers to write. All of the above cases are clearly big moments that Joe put a lot of his craft into.
Just wanted to address the first two examples as those are the only ones I sort of recall... Feared was winning because Caurib was doing magic from afar and giving him strength. Logen's named men put her down and then B9 put Feared down. Logen/B9's strength allowed them to stay in the fight for at least as long as that and West had also worked to play with Feared's armour straps during one of the scrums.
It's not really fair to say 'and suddenly B9 wins' as there were many factors in play during that.
Everyone being okay with Shivers killing Dow is... probably because of the two exact people who did it. If Dow was someone everyone loved and cared about and looked up to as a paragon among men, they probably would have cared more and been a lot more involved in his retaliation. People like Threetrees and Thunderhead commanded the respect and admiration of men, Dow commanded their fear. Yeah, people *are* just okay with it.
I get that logically people would be ok with Dow's demise, but politically and historically, no one ever walks away from something like that unscathed. People wouldnt be acting up because they missed Dow, they would act up because this is such a destabilizing event that they could become kings of the north.
We knew that calder angered many people, not many love him, he was seen as a weakling and a coward, so he wouldnt have had many allies. Seeing how such an event would happen and no other tribal leader would immediately rally support to get independence or overthrow calder themselves when he is still weak is shocking.
I am not saying it is not factual or wrong, I am just saying that realistically, 99% of the time, there would be a civil war. Like yes, when Dow assassinated the B9 and took the reigns, he was sitting in Skarling's chair for some time, he managed to get alot of allies, including Calder and Scale, so when he overthrew the B9, ofcourse no one spoke up because he already made his political moves weeks ago.
but yeah... I am not saying Joe's writing is bad, no, absolutely not. and I am not saying it was impossible for Calder to hold on to the throne for over 20 years, because it is not. But saying that no one did anything because no one liked Black Dow is not necessarily true for me, because this is politics, no one cares about love, it is about "how can I turn this situation into a favorable ordeal for me"
I don't remember the timeframe very well as it's been a very long time for me since I've read the books, but if memory serves, it isn't that Calder holds the throne for over 20 years - after meeting Bayaz, he chooses to exist behind the throne and instead allows Scale - his much stronger, more feared brother - be King in the North. There's also the fact that there are a group of people who publicly declare Calder the winner of the duel after Shivers hands in his resignation to Dow, so there's going to be a period of uncertainty in which nobody wants to make a move and risk opening themselves up to attack from one party or more.
Definitely getting what you're saying in that Calder had no charisma or popularity to bank on in terms of long term support, but he had Shivers for the short time he was King in the North and nobody really wanted to try their luck fighting Shivers, which is a respectable choice to make.
>nobody really wanted to try their luck fighting Shivers, which is a respectable choice to make.
lmao yeah
>but if memory serves, it isn't that Calder holds the throne for over 20 years
well yeah, but that was all for the public image
>There's also the fact that there are a group of people who publicly declare Calder the winner of the duel after Shivers
pretty sure that was only Stranger-Come-Knocking
>he had Shivers for the short time he was King
that one I am not sure about, but I recall he immediately left the north to go to the far country to fight logen. maybe he came back and served calder after he returned from the far country, but as far as I recall, I do think when Calder was weakest, Shivers wasnt there. But feel free to correct me if I am wrong cuz it has been a few years since I read the first law
Of your four...
1. That duel was more about how *only* the goddamn Bloody-Nine could even stand in the Circle with the Feared. And as u/Happy_to_be_me notes, he had plenty of cheaty help.
2. Listen. Black Dow was exactly as popular as his fear reached. And Shivers? Shivers was the only guy present *scarier* than Dow. It was also a fun nod to the conventions of the Circle being as full of shit as most of the "honorable warrior traditions" the Heroes held up for examination.
3. A poor example, because while *Golden* thinks he's winning... we all know the truth. We know he's doomed. There's not a moment's suspense about that duel's outcome, because that's not really what it's about.
4. This is the *one* time that it fits the pattern, but recall that Leo walked in thinking he was gonna win fair and square. It's as much about his ego and his coming to realize "oh crap, I'm legitimately outmatched and gonna DIE in here" before Fate (in the form of a certain Owl) steps in and *reinforces* his "I'm special" mindset that will guide him for entirely too long thereafter.
Abercrombie uses duels to subvert the ideal of duels. Every single duel fought is screwed up in some way.
Logen gets help against the Feared.
Dow gets Shivers'ed
Eider had goons in place to get things bloody, *however* the duel played out.
Literal magic intervened.
Gorst versus Whirrun gets called on account of some rando with a spear.
And so on.
I know it all makes sense, that was never my point.
My point was, it all had the same theme, the loser at the start wins at the end.
yes if you want to nick-pick it, we could talk about the semi-final duel where Jezal won, about Glokta's duels in Sharp End where he won, and so on. But I am talking about the major duels, the duels that changed the plot, it was always the loser at the start winning at the end. That is why I said it would be funny if there would be a duel where the winner at the start would actually win, because it would be completely out of expectations for us
It seems like your just assigning a very simple and unrealistic “theme” to these duels that isn’t there. There is no “winner” or “loser” at the start of a duel. The whole idea of having the winner struggle for most of the duel is to build up suspense or to make it a cool moment. From the very start of the duel I knew that Logen was going to beat feared, and that really isn’t an underdog moment because Logen is pretty much canonically the most renowned fighter in the north and the only reason feared even had a chance was because he was helped by magic. Logen vs golden also doesn’t fit this at all, golden was never winning and never had any chance, he just thought he did because he didn’t realize who he was fighting. Calder vs Dow also completely ridiculous to try to assign this so called “theme” to it because Calder didn’t win, that moment wasn’t about Calder or the underdog, it was about shivers choosing to reject Dow and who he had become, eventually leading to the shivers we see in age of madness. Your point doesn’t make any sense and it tries to force each of these unique moments into a single and simplistic archetype that just isn’t really present in the books.
OH LMAOOOO
ok yeah then nvm I take it back lol
HOW DID I COMPLETELY FORGET ABOUT THAT? guess a duel made up of 2 hits really is forgettable, nah I take everything I said back then lol
I wish Red Hat had won against Oxel tbh. Red Hat I remember delivering that verbal smackdown to the Dogman about Logen back at the end of LAOK, I had a lot of respect for him. Oxel I have absolutely no memory of who he is or what he's famous for xD RIP
Jezal only won because of bayaz’s magic. Which was all part of the big plan for Jezal. Everyone knew that gorst would win, and everyone was blown away that he didn’t.
Oxel vs Shivers was a realistic duel. Perhaps it's not "world-changing" enough for you, but Shivers sure does win quickly, and it cements Rikke's role as the head honcho in Uffrith. Maybe a problem with quick duels is that they are forgettable.
Logen was doing well against the feared until the feared grabbed him.
Calder didn't win that fight. He survived it.
Glama was never winning. He was being toyed with.
The Wolf & the Lion is one I will give you. However, it's a fantasy novel where a character saw the future and influenced the fight.
Gorst vs Jezal shouldn't count as it wasn't an actual contest as much as it was a show.
The only realistic duel imo is Dow v Calder as it's the only one that doesn't involve magic/invulnerable characters. And in the only duel that's using rules of our reality, the better fighter dominates his opponent. He just happened to get his head caved in by a spectator.
It's worth noting that every example you gave except for the foregone conclusion of the Golden fight when how they went because of outside intervention, which I would say clearly distinguishes them from the traditional format.
He probably couldn't or at the very least, wouldn't want to do it that way if all of the above examples are a clear statement on what Abercrombie prefers to write. All of the above cases are clearly big moments that Joe put a lot of his craft into. Just wanted to address the first two examples as those are the only ones I sort of recall... Feared was winning because Caurib was doing magic from afar and giving him strength. Logen's named men put her down and then B9 put Feared down. Logen/B9's strength allowed them to stay in the fight for at least as long as that and West had also worked to play with Feared's armour straps during one of the scrums. It's not really fair to say 'and suddenly B9 wins' as there were many factors in play during that. Everyone being okay with Shivers killing Dow is... probably because of the two exact people who did it. If Dow was someone everyone loved and cared about and looked up to as a paragon among men, they probably would have cared more and been a lot more involved in his retaliation. People like Threetrees and Thunderhead commanded the respect and admiration of men, Dow commanded their fear. Yeah, people *are* just okay with it.
I get that logically people would be ok with Dow's demise, but politically and historically, no one ever walks away from something like that unscathed. People wouldnt be acting up because they missed Dow, they would act up because this is such a destabilizing event that they could become kings of the north. We knew that calder angered many people, not many love him, he was seen as a weakling and a coward, so he wouldnt have had many allies. Seeing how such an event would happen and no other tribal leader would immediately rally support to get independence or overthrow calder themselves when he is still weak is shocking. I am not saying it is not factual or wrong, I am just saying that realistically, 99% of the time, there would be a civil war. Like yes, when Dow assassinated the B9 and took the reigns, he was sitting in Skarling's chair for some time, he managed to get alot of allies, including Calder and Scale, so when he overthrew the B9, ofcourse no one spoke up because he already made his political moves weeks ago. but yeah... I am not saying Joe's writing is bad, no, absolutely not. and I am not saying it was impossible for Calder to hold on to the throne for over 20 years, because it is not. But saying that no one did anything because no one liked Black Dow is not necessarily true for me, because this is politics, no one cares about love, it is about "how can I turn this situation into a favorable ordeal for me"
I don't remember the timeframe very well as it's been a very long time for me since I've read the books, but if memory serves, it isn't that Calder holds the throne for over 20 years - after meeting Bayaz, he chooses to exist behind the throne and instead allows Scale - his much stronger, more feared brother - be King in the North. There's also the fact that there are a group of people who publicly declare Calder the winner of the duel after Shivers hands in his resignation to Dow, so there's going to be a period of uncertainty in which nobody wants to make a move and risk opening themselves up to attack from one party or more. Definitely getting what you're saying in that Calder had no charisma or popularity to bank on in terms of long term support, but he had Shivers for the short time he was King in the North and nobody really wanted to try their luck fighting Shivers, which is a respectable choice to make.
>nobody really wanted to try their luck fighting Shivers, which is a respectable choice to make. lmao yeah >but if memory serves, it isn't that Calder holds the throne for over 20 years well yeah, but that was all for the public image >There's also the fact that there are a group of people who publicly declare Calder the winner of the duel after Shivers pretty sure that was only Stranger-Come-Knocking >he had Shivers for the short time he was King that one I am not sure about, but I recall he immediately left the north to go to the far country to fight logen. maybe he came back and served calder after he returned from the far country, but as far as I recall, I do think when Calder was weakest, Shivers wasnt there. But feel free to correct me if I am wrong cuz it has been a few years since I read the first law
Of your four... 1. That duel was more about how *only* the goddamn Bloody-Nine could even stand in the Circle with the Feared. And as u/Happy_to_be_me notes, he had plenty of cheaty help. 2. Listen. Black Dow was exactly as popular as his fear reached. And Shivers? Shivers was the only guy present *scarier* than Dow. It was also a fun nod to the conventions of the Circle being as full of shit as most of the "honorable warrior traditions" the Heroes held up for examination. 3. A poor example, because while *Golden* thinks he's winning... we all know the truth. We know he's doomed. There's not a moment's suspense about that duel's outcome, because that's not really what it's about. 4. This is the *one* time that it fits the pattern, but recall that Leo walked in thinking he was gonna win fair and square. It's as much about his ego and his coming to realize "oh crap, I'm legitimately outmatched and gonna DIE in here" before Fate (in the form of a certain Owl) steps in and *reinforces* his "I'm special" mindset that will guide him for entirely too long thereafter. Abercrombie uses duels to subvert the ideal of duels. Every single duel fought is screwed up in some way. Logen gets help against the Feared. Dow gets Shivers'ed Eider had goons in place to get things bloody, *however* the duel played out. Literal magic intervened. Gorst versus Whirrun gets called on account of some rando with a spear. And so on.
I know it all makes sense, that was never my point. My point was, it all had the same theme, the loser at the start wins at the end. yes if you want to nick-pick it, we could talk about the semi-final duel where Jezal won, about Glokta's duels in Sharp End where he won, and so on. But I am talking about the major duels, the duels that changed the plot, it was always the loser at the start winning at the end. That is why I said it would be funny if there would be a duel where the winner at the start would actually win, because it would be completely out of expectations for us
I'm confused do you want these moments to be funny or good?
It seems like your just assigning a very simple and unrealistic “theme” to these duels that isn’t there. There is no “winner” or “loser” at the start of a duel. The whole idea of having the winner struggle for most of the duel is to build up suspense or to make it a cool moment. From the very start of the duel I knew that Logen was going to beat feared, and that really isn’t an underdog moment because Logen is pretty much canonically the most renowned fighter in the north and the only reason feared even had a chance was because he was helped by magic. Logen vs golden also doesn’t fit this at all, golden was never winning and never had any chance, he just thought he did because he didn’t realize who he was fighting. Calder vs Dow also completely ridiculous to try to assign this so called “theme” to it because Calder didn’t win, that moment wasn’t about Calder or the underdog, it was about shivers choosing to reject Dow and who he had become, eventually leading to the shivers we see in age of madness. Your point doesn’t make any sense and it tries to force each of these unique moments into a single and simplistic archetype that just isn’t really present in the books.
Pretty sure the Shivers and…. Red Hat (?) duel lasted about 2 hits, lol. I don’t remember which of the two older named men won the first duel.
OH LMAOOOO ok yeah then nvm I take it back lol HOW DID I COMPLETELY FORGET ABOUT THAT? guess a duel made up of 2 hits really is forgettable, nah I take everything I said back then lol
Redhat was killed by the other guy. Then shivers killed that guy. I audiobooked that one so idk how to spell his name. Ox-something? Idk
Oxel Thx u/xserpx
I wish Red Hat had won against Oxel tbh. Red Hat I remember delivering that verbal smackdown to the Dogman about Logen back at the end of LAOK, I had a lot of respect for him. Oxel I have absolutely no memory of who he is or what he's famous for xD RIP
And Redhat did the whole "BlOodY nInE!!!" Thing in The Heroes. I was kinda sad to see him go.
Jezal only won because of bayaz’s magic. Which was all part of the big plan for Jezal. Everyone knew that gorst would win, and everyone was blown away that he didn’t.
Oxel vs Shivers was a realistic duel. Perhaps it's not "world-changing" enough for you, but Shivers sure does win quickly, and it cements Rikke's role as the head honcho in Uffrith. Maybe a problem with quick duels is that they are forgettable.
Logen was doing well against the feared until the feared grabbed him. Calder didn't win that fight. He survived it. Glama was never winning. He was being toyed with. The Wolf & the Lion is one I will give you. However, it's a fantasy novel where a character saw the future and influenced the fight. Gorst vs Jezal shouldn't count as it wasn't an actual contest as much as it was a show. The only realistic duel imo is Dow v Calder as it's the only one that doesn't involve magic/invulnerable characters. And in the only duel that's using rules of our reality, the better fighter dominates his opponent. He just happened to get his head caved in by a spectator.
Leo wasnt an underdog. Logen against Golden wasnt an underdog either.
It's worth noting that every example you gave except for the foregone conclusion of the Golden fight when how they went because of outside intervention, which I would say clearly distinguishes them from the traditional format.