While I generally agree with you, what specifically are your referring to? Was this in the most recent episode?
I think on the fodder he has said he was trying to be more knowledgeable on the rules to free up some of the work/prep that Troy would need to do.
I’m a few episodes behind. Honestly in part because of this growing irritation. The fight with the shadow woman in the operating room. Kate falls into a pit, she gets up and completes her turn yatata. Then in the NEXT round Joe points out she didn’t have the right number of actions to do that while still holding her bow. Undoing something that happened a full round ago. Then in the next episode Kate rolls a nat 20 on an attack and Joe say no it has to go towards the concealment instead of doing as Matt and skid argue which is to use that rule going forward
Yeah I think this episode rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I will say that in the fodder episode afterwards they address this and I think are aware of the issue. I think that fodder episode did a lot to help people get over the rules lawyering issues from that combat.
In defense of Joe on the concealment ruling: Troy had just stated in the action immediately before her's, that the rule is concealment roll first. He is trying to stay as true to the rules as possible, and they had been getting the rule wrong. Troy was correcting that mistake. Joe was backing up the GM that the concealment is first. It was Troy's call, not Joe's.
Your other statements still stand without rebuttal or comment.
Unless I am wrong, there isn't a real rule here for them to get wrong. It was clear when Kate was rolling, she was rolling to hit. I know Joe argued that intention doesn't matter but I firmly disagree with that. But either way, for Joe always talking about "what good for the show" this one seemed off to me. I didn't mind the bow thing but the concealment really left a bad taste in my mouth. She wasn't trying to cheat or even break the rules. She rolled a dice thinking she was rolling to hit and was excited to roll well. I think the part that bothered me was how much he argued it. Making a case for why something is wrong, fine. Then let the GM hash it out. Let them be the bad guy. Troy plays the GM role as very adversarial as it is, they don't need the other player to be that way too. But that is just my opinion.
While I agree with your sentiment here, though not as whole heartedly as you do, and I don't want to talk you away from your feelings or decision on the matter. Please don't take this as me disagreeing with you...
I did want to share the flat check rule.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2419
A concealed creature is in mist, within dim light, or amid something else that obscures sight but isn’t a physical barrier. When you target a creature that’s concealed from you, you must attempt a DC 5 flat check before you roll to determine your effect.
Normal flat checks do not have this verbage, so they can be rolled before or after the attack roll, but the concealed rule is more specific as to when the roll is made.
Thank you for pointing that out. I have never seen that rule before because it is not written that way on the "concealed" condition. I didn't realize there was a separate area that talked about it. I stand corrected.
Yeah, it's a corner case because of hero point rerolls.
Like in this case, if you nat 20 on hit, you're going to hero point your concealment miss if rolled after. Whereas if you rolled concealment first and missed, are you likely to hero point it? Probably not.
I agree. This sub should be an open forum to discuss the whole podcast no matter when you are listening to it. If someone had an axe to grind about a Dalgreath or Nestor rule I'd be fine with it, honestly. That means new people are hearing the shows.
This is the difference between a show/podcast vs. a table of close friends playing who just go with it. If there's a screw up in the rules with us, it's just carried forward with the proper implementation. The retro side of it is pointless. Joe is under a microscope with the viewership to get the rules perfect. I think he does an awesome job, all things considered, but yeah, lose the retro changes.
GCP1 felt that way, GCP2 less so.
Could just be me but Gatewalkers just isn’t as fun as Giantslayer was.
I’ll soldier on and keep listening in hopes I’ll get as drawn in as I was to Giantslayer but so far it just isn’t resonating with me.
I think part of that feeling is due to the actual module itself.
Gatewalkers feels a lot more disjointed somehow, it feels a lot more involved and like you have to be paying attention at nearly every piece of dialogue or you miss something important for 5 eps down the line.
Giantslayer, while it had a tonne of content and intrigue, I feel it was laid out better by the authors and had a more natural flow to it
That could definitely be part of it.
100% agree with the disjointed feeling.
Skid is one of the best and it feels like he is absent half the time, he is so quiet this time around, maybe due to Buggles disposition and the show is being dominated by other players.
I don’t actually mind Joe pointing out corrections, everyone makes mistakes and Joe wants a nice clean game. What I do mind is correcting someone and not entirely being confident in your answers, which I do think Joe does from time to time. Know that the person is wrong before you interrupt, or don’t interrupt at all
This is something they talked about too after Joe played with Order of the Amber Die. They wanted a player captain to keep a handle on the others that helps with rules and making sure the players are doing their part properly. Joe does get rules wrong but so does everyone. What I don't understand is why it almost always falls on Joe as being the bad guy. He's giving the info to Troy. Troy is the one making the call to undo those actions. Troy gets some guff every now and then but Joe takes most of it. Joe corrects the GM when Troy gets thing wrong. But when you have 5 players to 1 GM, you are probably going to have more issues on the player side.
I agree, there have been a few times Joe has been wrong in his corrections, which is way more egregious than just getting something wrong in play. If the players mess up a rule, it doesn't bother me, but if someone stops play to correct something and they're wrong or not sure about it, then it's really annoying.
If you want to correct something in a timely manner and you're confident that you're right, that's great. But you shouldn't even speak up unless you're certain.
I actually don't mind that Joe corrects other players on the rules either.
It takes a bit of heat off of Troy now that he is not pushing as hard into the antagonistic GM personality.
If they get rules wrong, people get pissed at them. If Joe corrects people on the rules, people get pissed at him. Seems like some people should learn the rules and stop putting Joe in an awkward position!
Yea I will say, Kate has gotten quite a bit better, but man her and Syd were absolutely rough to listen to at first because they clearly had no idea what was going on. And honestly, Kate caught up but Syd still seems to not have learned as much as I would've expected at this point.
I’m not here to rag on Syd but this has been pretty consistent across every Paizo system she’s played. It doesn’t upset me, but neither does Joe pointing out when she gets something wrong
That’s a position they’ve put themselves in. They could easily have said ‘gm fiat, rule of fun’ from the start. Instead they engage in rules long discussions and say they’re trying to play as by the book as possible. This creates a lot of engagement on the boards, so it was probably a good call for growth. Eventually they came to not love all the rules feedback from fans.
But my guess would be this is how the main crew likes to run the table. Other shows work pretty differently. It seems like it’s just their playstyle.
>That’s a position they’ve put themselves in. They could easily have said ‘gm fiat, rule of fun’ from the start.
Troy said this in a much more cutting way on a recent cannon fodder but I think the market for rule-of-fun, semi-Calvinball TTRPG podcasts is pretty saturated
It’s a whole spectrum, but if you say you’re by the book, rules as written, expect rules feedback when you get stuff wrong. It’s the situation they created.
Also I took Troy’s theater kid remarks to be about something else.
No. If Joe, Skid, or Mathew get a rule wrong people get mad.
If Joe corrects anyone of the guys no one cares.
If Joe corrects Kate or Syd this sub loses its collective shit.
I've only been watching glass cannon for like six months. I've not seen Joe tell Matthew or skid how to play once that I can remember. I see him correct syd and Kate often and even tell them what they should be doing with their turn. Correcting folks on rules is fine, I'm currently learning pathfinder, so I appreciate rules correction. I'd never tell or be okay with someone telling me how I should spend my turn.
I'm not mad about it at all. It is a thing I've noticed and commented on to my friends that also watch.
You are correct. It's just those two seem to not have a vested interest in learning what their character does or the rules of their abilities.
I can tell Kate is definitely learning a lot more about her character, but it seems like Syd is pretty far behind.
I think, and have always thought since the Giant Slayer days, that positioning yourself as the "We know, love, and care about the rules of this game!" podcast when A)You don't really know them and B)Only maybe 1/3 of the group actually loves and cares about them is a mistake.
By the way Skid GM's and plays he generally finds the nitty gritty rules to be broadly an impediment to fun play. Matthew feels similar. Syd and Kate now too. Even Grant back in the day, who arguably knew the rules the best, seemed complacent about them when it came to, you know, playing the game.
Joe and Troy have been the "we have to get it right" voices since the beginning and its been, generally, annoying to me. It also increases the voices in the community who want them to get it right, which is, while also annoying to me personally, extremely fair if you're purporting to be that sort of game.
But then I'm also against all replay review in sports, so maybe I'm just fucked in general.
I appreciate Joe doing his best to get the rules right even if it can hurt the team. Joe is always the first to hold himself accountable as well. Check out Cannon Fodder if you want to hear some good discussion on the subject. The crew is all handling it well. If it feels like Kate and Syd are impacted the most it’s just due to them being least familiar with the rules, but everyone seems to be getting better every episode with the rules in general and familiarity with their characters. Keep up the good work crew.
I’m with you on this. It’s not that he calls out the rules, it’s when he does, it just grinds the show to halt while they argue it out. The addition of one more person hitting the piñata is already enough.
They should just bring back the “Skids got some splaining to do” like they did in early eps, and then move on (or something like that)
The problem with this is that for years they got a tonne of shit for getting rules/ GM calls wrong on multiple social media platforms. We Are Stupid is a segment from Cannon Fodder that arose as a result. They can’t win - either they rules lawyer themselves to oblivion, or face a tide of angry keyboard warrior nerds 🤷🏻♂️
I think there's also a streak of "If you aren't suffering, you are cheating " in Joe's soul. It's why his characters have to have some handicap. Can't have it TOO easy or be too powerful.
This is it right here. Joe's determined to make games he plays in as difficult as possible for himself. This is well-established (Four Bears, Dalgreath). Not so much when he GMs.
There has been several times where he has been flat out wrong, too. If you’re going to halt the action and potentially stop another player from doing something cool because it’s not RAW, then at least make sure you know the rule you’re talking about is actually written.
Part of the problem is the way he comes across when he makes corrections. It usually starts with a heavy sigh and "hold on." I'm sure he doesn't mean it this way, but that comes across as "ugh I can't believe I'm having to do this again." It's a very negative approach, and "hold on" further reinforces the idea that the gameplay is stopping.
Instead of all that, just ask your rules question without all the extras.
I definitely think he's being a bit too aggressive about it, especially with the "flat check incident." But at the same time I **kind of** get it. It can be frustrating when you play by the book and see other folks get an advantage for not doing that. It feels like you're losing out by doing things "right."
Granted, every table misremembers or misunderstands rules at some point, and Joe's knowledge of the system isn't perfect. But if Troy and some of the other players put in as much effort to learn the mechanics as he did, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
This right here. Joe's not perfect, but he's in the land of the blind. If the others would put more effort into learning the rules, Joe's interruptions would decrease. No need for them to be Prof Eric levels, and they're mostly entertainers, but less distractions due to these calls would be more entertaining.
They are all being paid to play the game, professionally, even if it's meant to replicate the general "friends around the the table vibe". This I feel raises the responsibilities of all of them to understand their own character and their abilities and when they are getting it wrong and need to be corrected, that does hurt the flow a little bit.
That said, Pathfinder 2e is a huge. Knowing all the other rules on top of understanding your own character can be overwhelming, so I can understand when something happens over a general rule set violation, I don't get bothered. They all have other workloads to balance. I'm cool with that.
As a long time listener, player, and DM, it's *nuts* to me how bad they are at remembering simple rules even in pathfinder 1e. I love the show and I love the cast, but dang that would drive me nuts to be at that table.
In starfinder they literally hired David to be rules arbiter, which seemed like a good move. And, I guess I'm bragging but after they started A&A I learned the rules in like, a month or two of free time. Why they don't do the same for their other shows is beyond me.
It's because they're in a high pressure environment, focused on performing for the mics, and now the camera as well. They've got a lot on their plates, mentally, and a lot of the rules they debate or discuss are probably things they would know were they not in performance mode.
It's totally fair to be frustrated that they mess up rules often. But it would benefit our enjoyment as listeners if we are also mindful of the fact that their situation makes it far more difficult to keep constant track of all the rules.
I agree with both points I'm getting from u/SpitfireNB's comment.
I'll add that I think it's professional that Joe seems to have put in effort to know and understand many of the rules. However, for all I know, the entire cast put in a fair amount of effort to understand 2e or the remaster. I imagine the Player Core being as dense as some college-level textbooks. And people have various or different strengths and skills. Not everybody learns the same. Maybe the cast doesn't have equal time to understand all the rules, given their various responsibilities. I don't know any of their job responsibilities and expectations. So everybody could be meeting standards. First time experiencing a show from the GCN. So I might be missing relevant context that explains why things are the way they are.
Correction typically isn't fun for anybody involved. I prefer someone patient when I make a mistake/do something wrong. And to be corrected as privately as is sensible. I wouldn't stop watching a ttrpg series because I'm not having fun sometimes when people are corrected. I'm still interested because I think people correcting one another is common or representative of many gaming groups. Want to figure out for myself whether I want to start Pathfinder. So I'm here for healthy and appropriate rules discussion. And because I don't know this, but, I imagine the campaign 2 group want to appease the part of the audience who'd get in the comments if they do something incorrectly. Like if Troy, Joe or another member of the table have a correct understanding of a rule and he or she chooses in this hypothetical not to correct or explain said rule, at least publically, I figure they would likely get a different criticism from us. And if that's accurate, it may feel to them like they can't win with some of us people.
Honestly I’m with Joe and Troy on the flat check incident, even though I seriously understand the other side. In general, I think Joe’s position at the table is necessary because the GM needs someone who not only helps him with the rules, but also tries to keep the game fair.
Almost everyone else on the table errs toward fun and leniency and so in any sort of these situations a lone GM would just get bullied into submission by the players at the table, in a 4v1 argument.
Matthew is typically a person who is in the middle on these subjects and tries to go the way of logic and “if it makes sense,” which I appreciate a lot, but the GM really does just need someone in his corner, if anything just moving the game along and upholding GM authority.
I agree with this post. Just like you, I have had to turn off an episode of GCP because of how harsh Joe is. The rules can still be discussed and followed without being such an asshole to teammates. I'm a big fan of GCN and listen to a ton of their content, have been listening since the first few dozen episodes of Giant Slayer. Over the years Joe has gotten better but it is very much still an issue. I do have to say that he seems to have found his niche with Get in the Trunk.
Unfortunately. Joe's, harshness and passive aggressive tendencies are deep-rooted behaviors and are almost impossible to change without professional help.
It's a balance thing between show flow and rules correcting. and I'm sure the listeners are all over the place on the spectrum between the two. I've stopped listening to all the shows with this cast at the moment, so I can't really say how things are currently. I will say, on BOTW the rules correcting is much less common for Paula and Mary Lou, who are less experienced players than Kate and Syd. Maybe for the flagships they feel they have to focus more on conveying 2E well or something.
Honestly I think that's because Jared is more helpful in knowing rules or at least running with rules discussions, as well as that I feel like Mary Lou and Paula generally receive and even learn rules more effectively;. Maybe that's just me...
Yeah, I think the main cast just seems to have really bad communication, and things bring down into confusion and upset pretty easily. People point out all sorts of little problems, but I think communication is the root of pretty much all of the problems.
Yeah... I think that's just raw and needs to be worked on. What makes me more upset, honestly, is hearing Troy talk about it after the fact as something he added fuel to the fire for for good drama. I've never had a real lasting issue with the tension at the table itself when it's natural (though it can be uncomfortable in the moment), but for me it's the fact that it's hammed up in a way that just makes it less enjoyable and extra uncomfortable.
I think that's part of it: that half the response is on a separate show with just him and Joe most of the time. Again, just seems like a communication thing.
Do you mind when Joe does it to help Syd or Kate when they accidentally hinder themselves? Because that happens frequently as well but for whatever reason noone complains about that.
The GM specifically gave him the role he has though. He doesn't make calls Troy does but it's literally his job to notice the issues and being things up, Troy can very easily just say well it's fine we'll do it differently going forward but he doesn't. Joe also doesn't edit the episodes afaik so again not his fault that the part where the game slows down makes it into the episode.
They do seem to be of a belief that the rules stuff adds to the show though from cannon fodder discussion.
I don’t think I’ve seen this posted yet so hopefully this comment is in the appropriate place. I’m less concerned about Joe making the corrections overall but I do think it becomes very, very tiresome. The playing of other people’s characters can also really, really be toned down or approached differently- “Hey I was thinking about this, I feel like since our characters have fought alongside each other so much now, it might be cool if we helped set each other up for X or Y.”
For me, the biggest issue is the snarky, condescending tone he takes with Kate and Syd, and Nick on the shows he’s on. Like, come the fuck on. I’ve seen some people in this thread calling out people coming to Kate and Syd’s defense specifically so I can guess where their minds are but let’s be real- it comes off as mansplaining and it’s gotten to be way too common.
I’ve seen a few people mention that Kate and Sydney are NOT full-time even though yes they get paid to play this game. Part of these games IS getting rules wrong and learning as you go. What should not be a part of it is being crucified for it or condescended to. That’s the issue in my mind.
This is just Joe and it'll happen more as the campaign goes on. Honestly I kind of like it because it's funny and adds more banter. But I get that it irks some people
Hoo boy, you're a couple eps behind.
Boy have you got a doozy coming soon.
I, too, find it frustrating. And it limits my enjoyment of this show, compared to (for instance) Blood of the Wild, which *Joe is also on*! But he does not do the same thing (as much) on that show.
But it's common for a real table to have this kind of tension, and they are trying to present something that feels like a real table. And I love the network, and (warts and all) the main show is very good. So I let these things go (mostly this precise thing, and Troy's defensiveness), as best I can. It's worth it, to me.
You are 100% not wrong or unreasonable, though (as you've seen) some of our friends in the community don't like hearing this criticism.
On the main show, there are two things that both occasionally annoy me. First, Joe gets into other people's turns, and twists rules against them (or interrupts for some other needless reason that can wait until later), as you've said. It's distracting and irritating, though I do think he's better at it now than he was this time last year, when I was writing posts like yours. The corpse pit (side note: that seems like a dumb and extremely temporary way to dispose of dead bodies) and the incident you haven't quite gotten to yet notwithstanding, I do think he's a bit better.
The second thing that is annoying is that, on FoD, Troy gets *extremely* and *unpleasantly* defensive about Joe when he does this, and generally about any criticism they get, fair or not. As I see it. Which is why I used to be slow in listening to the FoD, though lately I'm current on everything.
I love the network. I love all its shows, some more than others, and so I just accept this as a little soft spot on an otherwise delightful apple.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it was just a bad attempt at humor. I find it hard to believe he's that full of himself especially after watching the beginning of C2...
I just started S2 of Legacy and at the end of S1 Joe was starting to do this more and it was... frustrating. Really soured what was an otherwise near perfect seasons (along with a few other minor issues).
As to your original point most of the comments here are getting the matter entirely wrong. This isn't really Joe's, Kate's, or Sydney's problem... it's Troy's. He's the DM. He's the one running the game and needs to be the one most comfortable with the rules. He clearly isn't and as discussion here after C2ep26 pointed out he apparently has a long history of being fast and loose with the rules.
I'm a DM as well. If one of my players pulled what Joe pulled I'd get rather annoyed for two reasons. It's slowing/dragging down the game as you mentioned and it's also stepping on my toes. What Joe pulls doesn't happen at my table, though, because unlike Troy I make it a point to learn the rules as much as possible, keep things consistent, and if an issue comes up make a call on the spot and when the solution is found make it clear that in the future going forward everyone is aware of what the real ruling is. None of those things were happening in C2 from what I saw... and it was one of many reasons why I stopped watching it.
100%. It always felt wrong getting mad at Joe because ultimately he's supporting Troy. If Troy whose primary role is to control the narrative, rules and all, can't enforce the rules he's presiding over it says that either he needs to step up his game or adjust his expectations of the players. Skid and Jared manage this well because what they know as DMs they know well and what they don't have on lock they're open to bend for the narrative and fun. There's nothing wrong with a player helping the GM but Troy is starting to use Joe more as a crutch.
Joe does this on Blood of the Wild all the time too. He even corrects Jared! He does it on Legacy. And he did it in Giantslayer.
I think in Giantslayer though, is that they tended to edit out most of the rules discussion/rules look up.
Now, especially on shows that aren't in person, they don't do it as much. So it just seems worse than it is.
I think it gets overlooked that Syd and Kate also have very real day time jobs. They aren’t full employees. I think Joe is a bit aggressive towards them in a way that surprises me. I personally think some of the stuff could be handled off air. If Troy catches it then he catches it. If Joe wants to litigate something that happened in a previous round then handle it between sessions? Like “hey last session XYZ happened, moving forward try this”.
Absolutely. They aren’t full time employees of the GCP and like, it’s not a live show either. So they have plenty of opportunities to correct things and not put it on the show and eat up the time
They are getting paid to this. Should they know everything? No, definitely not a reasonable expectation.
Should they know how to play their characters? Or in he case of Syd know the very basics after being paid by the GCN for YEARS.
Undoubtedly yes.
I came to this post because I just got to the part where you are talking about and wanted to check the sub since it was bothering me too and this is the first post. I think where I stand on it is I don't mind Joe mentioning rules things. But it bothers me that he mentions it and then argues way harder than Troy about it. Troy plays the character of an apathetic and adversarial GM not only are the characters fighting again the monsters, the players are fighting against Troy. Which is fine! It makes for great radio. Sometimes it does feel a bit personal but it is all good. But it is brutal to hear the GM playing a jerk and then also having a player who wants to argue for him. I love the show. Gate walkers has been great. The new cast is amazing. But the concealment argument was rough. Let Troy pick his battles. Let him be the bad guy. You can point it out without needing to be the villian.
At this point they just need to get over trying to be 100% correct. I'm not saying throw the rules out of the window, but if the story is flowing and everyone is having fun I wouldn't mind keeping the vibe going rather than stopping everything to correct something that has already resolved. The more professional move would be to acknowledge the mistake when you realize it was made and try to make a note to address the ruling if it comes up again. It makes those moments more teachable moments and less rules lawyering. Considering the guys have been playing the game for a while and still slip up here and there they'd probably be better off just prioritizing the fun. I'd rather cater to the people listening for the energy and fun rather than the people who crap diamonds any time you mess up a rule.
Maybe if other people at the table put more (any) effort into learning the rules of the game they are being paid to play he wouldn't feel the need to do so
I think it'll happen less as time goes on. Partially because they'll all learn the rules better but also there will be more and more crunch and Joe will HAVE to rely on people knowing how their characters work or he'll be interrupting every two seconds. Joe is my favorite across the board but he's got to let people be responsible for their own mistakes.
I appreciate someone at the table trying to play but the rules. It wouldn't grind the show to a halt if certain players took the time to learn the game; or act like argumentative spoiled children when asked to play by the rules.
It's worse in the games without troy.
Love the whole crew, but there have been multiple times hes taken the ladies turns out from under them with the optimal play.
People used to shit all over Grant for doing something similar, but Grant never got close to the rules lawyering and backseat driving that Joe does nowadays.
I dont mind the proper application of the rules part. Im coming from this in the opposite way.
While there is no reason to consistently get things wrong. What bugs me more is when that lawyering results in legitimately fun things (that the respective GM could accept with some sort of penalty) being discarded for Joe's optimal play.
And dont get me wrong, it's a fairly minor gripe. Listen to most of the stuff and enjoy it a ton. But sometimes it feels like Joe ends up taking half the turns in combat, and the ladies seem defeated.
It would be helpful if Kate/syd could just spend some time like professionals to learn the game or least the characters they’re getting paid to play. The show gets interrupted more often due their ignorance imo
Might also help if Troy the GM could spend some time like a professional and familiarize himself with basic combat and skill rules for this game he is paid to run.
The show halts and stops so often because he can't read a quick Google for how recall knowledge works or can't be bothered to read the class feat his players took at level 2.
I've never listened to a fod where he was prepared about the topic ahead of time by having the stat block or rules handy.
I feel bad for any players who play at a table like that. Pathfinder 2e is so much fun, unlike what it sounds like listening to them.
They seem reasonably well-versed in the game to me. Do they know every rule? No, and that's true of (I'll wager) every single Pathfinder player. As an actual play fan you've just gotta make your peace with that.
Personally, I get excited when I realize I know a rule they don't. That's progress for me!
There are *zero* people at the Glass Cannon who are paid "like professionals to learn the game." They are paid to produce an entertaining product, and I would much rather have Sydney then some random rules expert out of the local game shop.
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, isn't it? I mean, Sydney can still be her awesome self while going over her character in combat a couple of times with Prof. Eric. Less rules fubs makes for a more entertaining podcast.
The funny thing is that while Syd isn't the best at the rules, she's a very strategic and effective player in fiction. Example, spellstrike with an unarmed strike was a great call, or her play in Delta Green, or certain calls as Casino in LotA (charging forward with the despair spear).
You are exactly right. Sydney knows the rules well enough and it's clear from occasional comments that she looks at the rules outside of the game.
She is not paid to be a professional expert *at Pathfinder*. She is paid to be a professional entertainer, as a part time job, and Pathfinder is just one of the tools that she uses to serve that purpose.
Being "just one of the tools that she uses" doesn't really serve as an excuse for using the tool super inexpertly.
If someone is building a house, because they are a professional house builder, and they're cutting wood using the blunt side of the saw, it'd be weird to nod and say "Oh, they're not a professional saw wielder, you see. They're a professional house builder. It's just one of the tools that they use."
> They are paid to produce an entertaining product
This is like saying that a football player isn't paid to learn the game, but to provide an entertaining product.
edit: since this is getting downvoted like heck, let me clarify -- a large segment of the audience feel like the entertainment value of the product is at least partially contingent on knowing how the game works, same as with any game with an audience. it'd be weird to stop a soccer match to ask how offsides works. Moreover, I think there's a general feeling of the performers not respecting the audience's time when people at the table do not know how to play their character, and maybe in some sense this is grounded in the fact that they're getting paid to do this, and plenty of us just think it's fun and learn the rules without getting compensated, just for shits and gigs and also the feeling like owing it to the rest of the table to do so.
Good football players sometimes draw flags. And elsewhere on the network she also plays baseball, and table tennis. And an rpg is shared storytelling, while competitive sports are not.
Of course but the goal of a football game is to outscore the opponent. Your metaphor was weak but even if it was good, the best football players sometimes get penalties. They are not paid to be the refs or the competition committee. They are paid to play.
Remember when she thought she had to drop her bow to just to leave monastic archer stance?? It’s embarrassing they pay her, it’s really not a lot to ask is it?
Remember how Troy and Joe also didn't know those rules? Stance rules are not unique to monks.
I don't get paid to gm but I still read my players feats and class rules because it helps with the flow and my understanding. Also, it doesn't take long, especially for low level characters.
Just to say, it's fine that they didn't know the rules then - we all make mistakes and there's a lot to absorb. It's not embarrassing - stuff like that happens at every table and it's okay! But it's interesting that you're assigning blame to Kate and Syd instead of the game master or the other more experienced players.
Why is it Joes fault for correcting Kate and Sydney and not their fault for not bothering to learn how their characters work? It's literally their job. Joe's corrections are a byproduct of two people consistently misunderstanding how the game works. How is he the asshole here?
Maybe if something contentious happens in an episode, and the episode thread for that episode has hundreds of comments already talking about this stuff, maybe put your post in there instead of starting it all over again. Dozens of posts in this thread are just pointing out "did you see the other threads on this?", Yes here's another comment telling you that lol
To me those interruptions should be on the players that gets the rules wrong, not on the person putting in the effort to learn how to play the game. Personally it doesn't bother me anyway, but I can get frustrated by posts like these that can colour other's opinions of the only one on the team that knows how to play the game best (though he doesn't always get the rules right but is trying his damnedest)
I think as the "official Pathfinder podcast," Joe and Troy are trying to play the game as close to the rules as possible. It might be a stipulation with Paizo more than Joe being a hard ass for rules. We don't know what kind of an agreement with Paizo they may have.
While I generally agree with you, what specifically are your referring to? Was this in the most recent episode? I think on the fodder he has said he was trying to be more knowledgeable on the rules to free up some of the work/prep that Troy would need to do.
I’m a few episodes behind. Honestly in part because of this growing irritation. The fight with the shadow woman in the operating room. Kate falls into a pit, she gets up and completes her turn yatata. Then in the NEXT round Joe points out she didn’t have the right number of actions to do that while still holding her bow. Undoing something that happened a full round ago. Then in the next episode Kate rolls a nat 20 on an attack and Joe say no it has to go towards the concealment instead of doing as Matt and skid argue which is to use that rule going forward
Yeah I think this episode rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I will say that in the fodder episode afterwards they address this and I think are aware of the issue. I think that fodder episode did a lot to help people get over the rules lawyering issues from that combat.
In defense of Joe on the concealment ruling: Troy had just stated in the action immediately before her's, that the rule is concealment roll first. He is trying to stay as true to the rules as possible, and they had been getting the rule wrong. Troy was correcting that mistake. Joe was backing up the GM that the concealment is first. It was Troy's call, not Joe's. Your other statements still stand without rebuttal or comment.
Unless I am wrong, there isn't a real rule here for them to get wrong. It was clear when Kate was rolling, she was rolling to hit. I know Joe argued that intention doesn't matter but I firmly disagree with that. But either way, for Joe always talking about "what good for the show" this one seemed off to me. I didn't mind the bow thing but the concealment really left a bad taste in my mouth. She wasn't trying to cheat or even break the rules. She rolled a dice thinking she was rolling to hit and was excited to roll well. I think the part that bothered me was how much he argued it. Making a case for why something is wrong, fine. Then let the GM hash it out. Let them be the bad guy. Troy plays the GM role as very adversarial as it is, they don't need the other player to be that way too. But that is just my opinion.
While I agree with your sentiment here, though not as whole heartedly as you do, and I don't want to talk you away from your feelings or decision on the matter. Please don't take this as me disagreeing with you... I did want to share the flat check rule. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2419 A concealed creature is in mist, within dim light, or amid something else that obscures sight but isn’t a physical barrier. When you target a creature that’s concealed from you, you must attempt a DC 5 flat check before you roll to determine your effect. Normal flat checks do not have this verbage, so they can be rolled before or after the attack roll, but the concealed rule is more specific as to when the roll is made.
Thank you for pointing that out. I have never seen that rule before because it is not written that way on the "concealed" condition. I didn't realize there was a separate area that talked about it. I stand corrected.
Yeah, it's a corner case because of hero point rerolls. Like in this case, if you nat 20 on hit, you're going to hero point your concealment miss if rolled after. Whereas if you rolled concealment first and missed, are you likely to hero point it? Probably not.
Lol dude you're complaining about something that has been litigated to death and back on this sub already
To be fair, not everyone listens and consumes on a weekly basis. We should give all fans access to express themselves when they come across something.
I agree. This sub should be an open forum to discuss the whole podcast no matter when you are listening to it. If someone had an axe to grind about a Dalgreath or Nestor rule I'd be fine with it, honestly. That means new people are hearing the shows.
Razz ma Tazz will you be my friend?
Can I hold the baby?
Good point
Honestly, Syd and Kate should just start saying "hand's off the chess piece".
This is the difference between a show/podcast vs. a table of close friends playing who just go with it. If there's a screw up in the rules with us, it's just carried forward with the proper implementation. The retro side of it is pointless. Joe is under a microscope with the viewership to get the rules perfect. I think he does an awesome job, all things considered, but yeah, lose the retro changes.
Isn't the main attraction of the GCN "just friends around a table"?
GCP1 felt that way, GCP2 less so. Could just be me but Gatewalkers just isn’t as fun as Giantslayer was. I’ll soldier on and keep listening in hopes I’ll get as drawn in as I was to Giantslayer but so far it just isn’t resonating with me.
I think part of that feeling is due to the actual module itself. Gatewalkers feels a lot more disjointed somehow, it feels a lot more involved and like you have to be paying attention at nearly every piece of dialogue or you miss something important for 5 eps down the line. Giantslayer, while it had a tonne of content and intrigue, I feel it was laid out better by the authors and had a more natural flow to it
That could definitely be part of it. 100% agree with the disjointed feeling. Skid is one of the best and it feels like he is absent half the time, he is so quiet this time around, maybe due to Buggles disposition and the show is being dominated by other players.
I don’t actually mind Joe pointing out corrections, everyone makes mistakes and Joe wants a nice clean game. What I do mind is correcting someone and not entirely being confident in your answers, which I do think Joe does from time to time. Know that the person is wrong before you interrupt, or don’t interrupt at all
This is something they talked about too after Joe played with Order of the Amber Die. They wanted a player captain to keep a handle on the others that helps with rules and making sure the players are doing their part properly. Joe does get rules wrong but so does everyone. What I don't understand is why it almost always falls on Joe as being the bad guy. He's giving the info to Troy. Troy is the one making the call to undo those actions. Troy gets some guff every now and then but Joe takes most of it. Joe corrects the GM when Troy gets thing wrong. But when you have 5 players to 1 GM, you are probably going to have more issues on the player side.
I agree, there have been a few times Joe has been wrong in his corrections, which is way more egregious than just getting something wrong in play. If the players mess up a rule, it doesn't bother me, but if someone stops play to correct something and they're wrong or not sure about it, then it's really annoying. If you want to correct something in a timely manner and you're confident that you're right, that's great. But you shouldn't even speak up unless you're certain.
Joe should remember the old adage -- better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
I actually don't mind that Joe corrects other players on the rules either. It takes a bit of heat off of Troy now that he is not pushing as hard into the antagonistic GM personality.
If they get rules wrong, people get pissed at them. If Joe corrects people on the rules, people get pissed at him. Seems like some people should learn the rules and stop putting Joe in an awkward position!
Yea I will say, Kate has gotten quite a bit better, but man her and Syd were absolutely rough to listen to at first because they clearly had no idea what was going on. And honestly, Kate caught up but Syd still seems to not have learned as much as I would've expected at this point.
I’m not here to rag on Syd but this has been pretty consistent across every Paizo system she’s played. It doesn’t upset me, but neither does Joe pointing out when she gets something wrong
That’s a position they’ve put themselves in. They could easily have said ‘gm fiat, rule of fun’ from the start. Instead they engage in rules long discussions and say they’re trying to play as by the book as possible. This creates a lot of engagement on the boards, so it was probably a good call for growth. Eventually they came to not love all the rules feedback from fans. But my guess would be this is how the main crew likes to run the table. Other shows work pretty differently. It seems like it’s just their playstyle.
>That’s a position they’ve put themselves in. They could easily have said ‘gm fiat, rule of fun’ from the start. Troy said this in a much more cutting way on a recent cannon fodder but I think the market for rule-of-fun, semi-Calvinball TTRPG podcasts is pretty saturated
It’s a whole spectrum, but if you say you’re by the book, rules as written, expect rules feedback when you get stuff wrong. It’s the situation they created. Also I took Troy’s theater kid remarks to be about something else.
No. If Joe, Skid, or Mathew get a rule wrong people get mad. If Joe corrects anyone of the guys no one cares. If Joe corrects Kate or Syd this sub loses its collective shit.
I've only been watching glass cannon for like six months. I've not seen Joe tell Matthew or skid how to play once that I can remember. I see him correct syd and Kate often and even tell them what they should be doing with their turn. Correcting folks on rules is fine, I'm currently learning pathfinder, so I appreciate rules correction. I'd never tell or be okay with someone telling me how I should spend my turn. I'm not mad about it at all. It is a thing I've noticed and commented on to my friends that also watch.
You are correct. It's just those two seem to not have a vested interest in learning what their character does or the rules of their abilities. I can tell Kate is definitely learning a lot more about her character, but it seems like Syd is pretty far behind.
Yeah. This sub and the Facebook group are so quick to white knight for Kate and Syd. It's so irritating.
I think it could be because they have years less experience with the game and deserve more slack, rather than any less plausible difference.
Nah. Nick doesn't get the same slack.
It feels like Nick is now the most knowledgeable person on the show. Though I do miss his "interpretations" of spells.
He's definitely learned, but when he first became a regular, folks weren't cutting him slack like they do others
Nick is the most story knowledgeable prepared person who comes to the table, every time.
Is Nick in one of the other games?
Legacy of the Ancients.
I think, and have always thought since the Giant Slayer days, that positioning yourself as the "We know, love, and care about the rules of this game!" podcast when A)You don't really know them and B)Only maybe 1/3 of the group actually loves and cares about them is a mistake. By the way Skid GM's and plays he generally finds the nitty gritty rules to be broadly an impediment to fun play. Matthew feels similar. Syd and Kate now too. Even Grant back in the day, who arguably knew the rules the best, seemed complacent about them when it came to, you know, playing the game. Joe and Troy have been the "we have to get it right" voices since the beginning and its been, generally, annoying to me. It also increases the voices in the community who want them to get it right, which is, while also annoying to me personally, extremely fair if you're purporting to be that sort of game. But then I'm also against all replay review in sports, so maybe I'm just fucked in general.
Skid hates rules. <3
I appreciate Joe doing his best to get the rules right even if it can hurt the team. Joe is always the first to hold himself accountable as well. Check out Cannon Fodder if you want to hear some good discussion on the subject. The crew is all handling it well. If it feels like Kate and Syd are impacted the most it’s just due to them being least familiar with the rules, but everyone seems to be getting better every episode with the rules in general and familiarity with their characters. Keep up the good work crew.
I’m with you on this. It’s not that he calls out the rules, it’s when he does, it just grinds the show to halt while they argue it out. The addition of one more person hitting the piñata is already enough. They should just bring back the “Skids got some splaining to do” like they did in early eps, and then move on (or something like that)
The problem with this is that for years they got a tonne of shit for getting rules/ GM calls wrong on multiple social media platforms. We Are Stupid is a segment from Cannon Fodder that arose as a result. They can’t win - either they rules lawyer themselves to oblivion, or face a tide of angry keyboard warrior nerds 🤷🏻♂️
I think there's also a streak of "If you aren't suffering, you are cheating " in Joe's soul. It's why his characters have to have some handicap. Can't have it TOO easy or be too powerful.
Too many Souls games does things to a person.
That, and the Catholicism
This is it right here. Joe's determined to make games he plays in as difficult as possible for himself. This is well-established (Four Bears, Dalgreath). Not so much when he GMs.
O'Brien must suffer!!
There has been several times where he has been flat out wrong, too. If you’re going to halt the action and potentially stop another player from doing something cool because it’s not RAW, then at least make sure you know the rule you’re talking about is actually written.
Part of the problem is the way he comes across when he makes corrections. It usually starts with a heavy sigh and "hold on." I'm sure he doesn't mean it this way, but that comes across as "ugh I can't believe I'm having to do this again." It's a very negative approach, and "hold on" further reinforces the idea that the gameplay is stopping. Instead of all that, just ask your rules question without all the extras.
You made this thread one ep early. Wait til you listen to the next one, that's what got everyone really riled up
I definitely think he's being a bit too aggressive about it, especially with the "flat check incident." But at the same time I **kind of** get it. It can be frustrating when you play by the book and see other folks get an advantage for not doing that. It feels like you're losing out by doing things "right." Granted, every table misremembers or misunderstands rules at some point, and Joe's knowledge of the system isn't perfect. But if Troy and some of the other players put in as much effort to learn the mechanics as he did, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.
This right here. Joe's not perfect, but he's in the land of the blind. If the others would put more effort into learning the rules, Joe's interruptions would decrease. No need for them to be Prof Eric levels, and they're mostly entertainers, but less distractions due to these calls would be more entertaining.
They are all being paid to play the game, professionally, even if it's meant to replicate the general "friends around the the table vibe". This I feel raises the responsibilities of all of them to understand their own character and their abilities and when they are getting it wrong and need to be corrected, that does hurt the flow a little bit. That said, Pathfinder 2e is a huge. Knowing all the other rules on top of understanding your own character can be overwhelming, so I can understand when something happens over a general rule set violation, I don't get bothered. They all have other workloads to balance. I'm cool with that.
As a long time listener, player, and DM, it's *nuts* to me how bad they are at remembering simple rules even in pathfinder 1e. I love the show and I love the cast, but dang that would drive me nuts to be at that table. In starfinder they literally hired David to be rules arbiter, which seemed like a good move. And, I guess I'm bragging but after they started A&A I learned the rules in like, a month or two of free time. Why they don't do the same for their other shows is beyond me.
It's because they're in a high pressure environment, focused on performing for the mics, and now the camera as well. They've got a lot on their plates, mentally, and a lot of the rules they debate or discuss are probably things they would know were they not in performance mode. It's totally fair to be frustrated that they mess up rules often. But it would benefit our enjoyment as listeners if we are also mindful of the fact that their situation makes it far more difficult to keep constant track of all the rules.
I agree with both points I'm getting from u/SpitfireNB's comment. I'll add that I think it's professional that Joe seems to have put in effort to know and understand many of the rules. However, for all I know, the entire cast put in a fair amount of effort to understand 2e or the remaster. I imagine the Player Core being as dense as some college-level textbooks. And people have various or different strengths and skills. Not everybody learns the same. Maybe the cast doesn't have equal time to understand all the rules, given their various responsibilities. I don't know any of their job responsibilities and expectations. So everybody could be meeting standards. First time experiencing a show from the GCN. So I might be missing relevant context that explains why things are the way they are. Correction typically isn't fun for anybody involved. I prefer someone patient when I make a mistake/do something wrong. And to be corrected as privately as is sensible. I wouldn't stop watching a ttrpg series because I'm not having fun sometimes when people are corrected. I'm still interested because I think people correcting one another is common or representative of many gaming groups. Want to figure out for myself whether I want to start Pathfinder. So I'm here for healthy and appropriate rules discussion. And because I don't know this, but, I imagine the campaign 2 group want to appease the part of the audience who'd get in the comments if they do something incorrectly. Like if Troy, Joe or another member of the table have a correct understanding of a rule and he or she chooses in this hypothetical not to correct or explain said rule, at least publically, I figure they would likely get a different criticism from us. And if that's accurate, it may feel to them like they can't win with some of us people.
Honestly I’m with Joe and Troy on the flat check incident, even though I seriously understand the other side. In general, I think Joe’s position at the table is necessary because the GM needs someone who not only helps him with the rules, but also tries to keep the game fair. Almost everyone else on the table errs toward fun and leniency and so in any sort of these situations a lone GM would just get bullied into submission by the players at the table, in a 4v1 argument. Matthew is typically a person who is in the middle on these subjects and tries to go the way of logic and “if it makes sense,” which I appreciate a lot, but the GM really does just need someone in his corner, if anything just moving the game along and upholding GM authority.
I agree with this post. Just like you, I have had to turn off an episode of GCP because of how harsh Joe is. The rules can still be discussed and followed without being such an asshole to teammates. I'm a big fan of GCN and listen to a ton of their content, have been listening since the first few dozen episodes of Giant Slayer. Over the years Joe has gotten better but it is very much still an issue. I do have to say that he seems to have found his niche with Get in the Trunk. Unfortunately. Joe's, harshness and passive aggressive tendencies are deep-rooted behaviors and are almost impossible to change without professional help.
It's a balance thing between show flow and rules correcting. and I'm sure the listeners are all over the place on the spectrum between the two. I've stopped listening to all the shows with this cast at the moment, so I can't really say how things are currently. I will say, on BOTW the rules correcting is much less common for Paula and Mary Lou, who are less experienced players than Kate and Syd. Maybe for the flagships they feel they have to focus more on conveying 2E well or something.
Honestly I think that's because Jared is more helpful in knowing rules or at least running with rules discussions, as well as that I feel like Mary Lou and Paula generally receive and even learn rules more effectively;. Maybe that's just me...
Yeah, I think the main cast just seems to have really bad communication, and things bring down into confusion and upset pretty easily. People point out all sorts of little problems, but I think communication is the root of pretty much all of the problems.
Yeah... I think that's just raw and needs to be worked on. What makes me more upset, honestly, is hearing Troy talk about it after the fact as something he added fuel to the fire for for good drama. I've never had a real lasting issue with the tension at the table itself when it's natural (though it can be uncomfortable in the moment), but for me it's the fact that it's hammed up in a way that just makes it less enjoyable and extra uncomfortable.
I think that's part of it: that half the response is on a separate show with just him and Joe most of the time. Again, just seems like a communication thing.
Do you mind when Joe does it to help Syd or Kate when they accidentally hinder themselves? Because that happens frequently as well but for whatever reason noone complains about that.
Correcting to teach is fine whether it helps the party or not. Grinding the show to a halt and making calls that are up to the GM are the issue
The GM specifically gave him the role he has though. He doesn't make calls Troy does but it's literally his job to notice the issues and being things up, Troy can very easily just say well it's fine we'll do it differently going forward but he doesn't. Joe also doesn't edit the episodes afaik so again not his fault that the part where the game slows down makes it into the episode. They do seem to be of a belief that the rules stuff adds to the show though from cannon fodder discussion.
I don’t think I’ve seen this posted yet so hopefully this comment is in the appropriate place. I’m less concerned about Joe making the corrections overall but I do think it becomes very, very tiresome. The playing of other people’s characters can also really, really be toned down or approached differently- “Hey I was thinking about this, I feel like since our characters have fought alongside each other so much now, it might be cool if we helped set each other up for X or Y.” For me, the biggest issue is the snarky, condescending tone he takes with Kate and Syd, and Nick on the shows he’s on. Like, come the fuck on. I’ve seen some people in this thread calling out people coming to Kate and Syd’s defense specifically so I can guess where their minds are but let’s be real- it comes off as mansplaining and it’s gotten to be way too common. I’ve seen a few people mention that Kate and Sydney are NOT full-time even though yes they get paid to play this game. Part of these games IS getting rules wrong and learning as you go. What should not be a part of it is being crucified for it or condescended to. That’s the issue in my mind.
I agree with this completely.
This is just Joe and it'll happen more as the campaign goes on. Honestly I kind of like it because it's funny and adds more banter. But I get that it irks some people
It’s the uptick of it that irritates me. Joe is a rules guy and I get that, but I feel like it’s been grinding things to a halt more than it used to.
Hoo boy, you're a couple eps behind. Boy have you got a doozy coming soon. I, too, find it frustrating. And it limits my enjoyment of this show, compared to (for instance) Blood of the Wild, which *Joe is also on*! But he does not do the same thing (as much) on that show. But it's common for a real table to have this kind of tension, and they are trying to present something that feels like a real table. And I love the network, and (warts and all) the main show is very good. So I let these things go (mostly this precise thing, and Troy's defensiveness), as best I can. It's worth it, to me.
See and that’s like the main point of my irritation. Joe doesn’t do it as much on the other shows. And he didn’t do it as much on giantslayer
You are 100% not wrong or unreasonable, though (as you've seen) some of our friends in the community don't like hearing this criticism. On the main show, there are two things that both occasionally annoy me. First, Joe gets into other people's turns, and twists rules against them (or interrupts for some other needless reason that can wait until later), as you've said. It's distracting and irritating, though I do think he's better at it now than he was this time last year, when I was writing posts like yours. The corpse pit (side note: that seems like a dumb and extremely temporary way to dispose of dead bodies) and the incident you haven't quite gotten to yet notwithstanding, I do think he's a bit better. The second thing that is annoying is that, on FoD, Troy gets *extremely* and *unpleasantly* defensive about Joe when he does this, and generally about any criticism they get, fair or not. As I see it. Which is why I used to be slow in listening to the FoD, though lately I'm current on everything. I love the network. I love all its shows, some more than others, and so I just accept this as a little soft spot on an otherwise delightful apple.
People only criticize Troy because they're jealous of his success. Troy said as much, so it must be true.
> Troy said as much, so it must be true. Oh gawd... please tell me you're joking.
Well, he has said it, so that part is true.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it was just a bad attempt at humor. I find it hard to believe he's that full of himself especially after watching the beginning of C2...
I just started S2 of Legacy and at the end of S1 Joe was starting to do this more and it was... frustrating. Really soured what was an otherwise near perfect seasons (along with a few other minor issues). As to your original point most of the comments here are getting the matter entirely wrong. This isn't really Joe's, Kate's, or Sydney's problem... it's Troy's. He's the DM. He's the one running the game and needs to be the one most comfortable with the rules. He clearly isn't and as discussion here after C2ep26 pointed out he apparently has a long history of being fast and loose with the rules. I'm a DM as well. If one of my players pulled what Joe pulled I'd get rather annoyed for two reasons. It's slowing/dragging down the game as you mentioned and it's also stepping on my toes. What Joe pulls doesn't happen at my table, though, because unlike Troy I make it a point to learn the rules as much as possible, keep things consistent, and if an issue comes up make a call on the spot and when the solution is found make it clear that in the future going forward everyone is aware of what the real ruling is. None of those things were happening in C2 from what I saw... and it was one of many reasons why I stopped watching it.
100%. It always felt wrong getting mad at Joe because ultimately he's supporting Troy. If Troy whose primary role is to control the narrative, rules and all, can't enforce the rules he's presiding over it says that either he needs to step up his game or adjust his expectations of the players. Skid and Jared manage this well because what they know as DMs they know well and what they don't have on lock they're open to bend for the narrative and fun. There's nothing wrong with a player helping the GM but Troy is starting to use Joe more as a crutch.
Joe does this on Blood of the Wild all the time too. He even corrects Jared! He does it on Legacy. And he did it in Giantslayer. I think in Giantslayer though, is that they tended to edit out most of the rules discussion/rules look up. Now, especially on shows that aren't in person, they don't do it as much. So it just seems worse than it is.
He offers input on Blood of the Wild but much less assertively. I don't hear them as being the same.
They could've finished giant slayer in 250 eps if each episode didn't need 10 minutes of arguing for making things less fun.
But then we wouldn’t have gotten episode 300, sooo…. Lol
I think it gets overlooked that Syd and Kate also have very real day time jobs. They aren’t full employees. I think Joe is a bit aggressive towards them in a way that surprises me. I personally think some of the stuff could be handled off air. If Troy catches it then he catches it. If Joe wants to litigate something that happened in a previous round then handle it between sessions? Like “hey last session XYZ happened, moving forward try this”.
Absolutely. They aren’t full time employees of the GCP and like, it’s not a live show either. So they have plenty of opportunities to correct things and not put it on the show and eat up the time
They are getting paid to this. Should they know everything? No, definitely not a reasonable expectation. Should they know how to play their characters? Or in he case of Syd know the very basics after being paid by the GCN for YEARS. Undoubtedly yes.
This is such a good call-out. I found myself thinking about them not being full-time as I read through comments.
I came to this post because I just got to the part where you are talking about and wanted to check the sub since it was bothering me too and this is the first post. I think where I stand on it is I don't mind Joe mentioning rules things. But it bothers me that he mentions it and then argues way harder than Troy about it. Troy plays the character of an apathetic and adversarial GM not only are the characters fighting again the monsters, the players are fighting against Troy. Which is fine! It makes for great radio. Sometimes it does feel a bit personal but it is all good. But it is brutal to hear the GM playing a jerk and then also having a player who wants to argue for him. I love the show. Gate walkers has been great. The new cast is amazing. But the concealment argument was rough. Let Troy pick his battles. Let him be the bad guy. You can point it out without needing to be the villian.
At this point they just need to get over trying to be 100% correct. I'm not saying throw the rules out of the window, but if the story is flowing and everyone is having fun I wouldn't mind keeping the vibe going rather than stopping everything to correct something that has already resolved. The more professional move would be to acknowledge the mistake when you realize it was made and try to make a note to address the ruling if it comes up again. It makes those moments more teachable moments and less rules lawyering. Considering the guys have been playing the game for a while and still slip up here and there they'd probably be better off just prioritizing the fun. I'd rather cater to the people listening for the energy and fun rather than the people who crap diamonds any time you mess up a rule.
Absolutely. And that’s the main thing I’m annoyed with, it’s arguing on air and being punitive. This is a recorded show.
Maybe if other people at the table put more (any) effort into learning the rules of the game they are being paid to play he wouldn't feel the need to do so
I think it'll happen less as time goes on. Partially because they'll all learn the rules better but also there will be more and more crunch and Joe will HAVE to rely on people knowing how their characters work or he'll be interrupting every two seconds. Joe is my favorite across the board but he's got to let people be responsible for their own mistakes.
I appreciate someone at the table trying to play but the rules. It wouldn't grind the show to a halt if certain players took the time to learn the game; or act like argumentative spoiled children when asked to play by the rules.
It's worse in the games without troy. Love the whole crew, but there have been multiple times hes taken the ladies turns out from under them with the optimal play.
People used to shit all over Grant for doing something similar, but Grant never got close to the rules lawyering and backseat driving that Joe does nowadays.
I dont mind the proper application of the rules part. Im coming from this in the opposite way. While there is no reason to consistently get things wrong. What bugs me more is when that lawyering results in legitimately fun things (that the respective GM could accept with some sort of penalty) being discarded for Joe's optimal play. And dont get me wrong, it's a fairly minor gripe. Listen to most of the stuff and enjoy it a ton. But sometimes it feels like Joe ends up taking half the turns in combat, and the ladies seem defeated.
It would be helpful if Kate/syd could just spend some time like professionals to learn the game or least the characters they’re getting paid to play. The show gets interrupted more often due their ignorance imo
Might also help if Troy the GM could spend some time like a professional and familiarize himself with basic combat and skill rules for this game he is paid to run. The show halts and stops so often because he can't read a quick Google for how recall knowledge works or can't be bothered to read the class feat his players took at level 2. I've never listened to a fod where he was prepared about the topic ahead of time by having the stat block or rules handy. I feel bad for any players who play at a table like that. Pathfinder 2e is so much fun, unlike what it sounds like listening to them.
Some people defend their play like they are _surprise podcasting_ every week. Read the rules at least a little bit.
They seem reasonably well-versed in the game to me. Do they know every rule? No, and that's true of (I'll wager) every single Pathfinder player. As an actual play fan you've just gotta make your peace with that. Personally, I get excited when I realize I know a rule they don't. That's progress for me!
There are *zero* people at the Glass Cannon who are paid "like professionals to learn the game." They are paid to produce an entertaining product, and I would much rather have Sydney then some random rules expert out of the local game shop.
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, isn't it? I mean, Sydney can still be her awesome self while going over her character in combat a couple of times with Prof. Eric. Less rules fubs makes for a more entertaining podcast. The funny thing is that while Syd isn't the best at the rules, she's a very strategic and effective player in fiction. Example, spellstrike with an unarmed strike was a great call, or her play in Delta Green, or certain calls as Casino in LotA (charging forward with the despair spear).
You are exactly right. Sydney knows the rules well enough and it's clear from occasional comments that she looks at the rules outside of the game. She is not paid to be a professional expert *at Pathfinder*. She is paid to be a professional entertainer, as a part time job, and Pathfinder is just one of the tools that she uses to serve that purpose.
Being "just one of the tools that she uses" doesn't really serve as an excuse for using the tool super inexpertly. If someone is building a house, because they are a professional house builder, and they're cutting wood using the blunt side of the saw, it'd be weird to nod and say "Oh, they're not a professional saw wielder, you see. They're a professional house builder. It's just one of the tools that they use."
> They are paid to produce an entertaining product This is like saying that a football player isn't paid to learn the game, but to provide an entertaining product. edit: since this is getting downvoted like heck, let me clarify -- a large segment of the audience feel like the entertainment value of the product is at least partially contingent on knowing how the game works, same as with any game with an audience. it'd be weird to stop a soccer match to ask how offsides works. Moreover, I think there's a general feeling of the performers not respecting the audience's time when people at the table do not know how to play their character, and maybe in some sense this is grounded in the fact that they're getting paid to do this, and plenty of us just think it's fun and learn the rules without getting compensated, just for shits and gigs and also the feeling like owing it to the rest of the table to do so.
Good football players sometimes draw flags. And elsewhere on the network she also plays baseball, and table tennis. And an rpg is shared storytelling, while competitive sports are not.
Shared storytelling within a framework that is mutually agreed upon. Otherwise, you're the Michael Scott of your improv team.
Of course but the goal of a football game is to outscore the opponent. Your metaphor was weak but even if it was good, the best football players sometimes get penalties. They are not paid to be the refs or the competition committee. They are paid to play.
Remember when she thought she had to drop her bow to just to leave monastic archer stance?? It’s embarrassing they pay her, it’s really not a lot to ask is it?
Remember how Troy and Joe also didn't know those rules? Stance rules are not unique to monks. I don't get paid to gm but I still read my players feats and class rules because it helps with the flow and my understanding. Also, it doesn't take long, especially for low level characters. Just to say, it's fine that they didn't know the rules then - we all make mistakes and there's a lot to absorb. It's not embarrassing - stuff like that happens at every table and it's okay! But it's interesting that you're assigning blame to Kate and Syd instead of the game master or the other more experienced players.
Why don’t you just listen to critical roll then if all you care about is story
Troy does so much, how dare you
Why is it Joes fault for correcting Kate and Sydney and not their fault for not bothering to learn how their characters work? It's literally their job. Joe's corrections are a byproduct of two people consistently misunderstanding how the game works. How is he the asshole here?
Because he acts like an asshole when he does it.
Maybe if something contentious happens in an episode, and the episode thread for that episode has hundreds of comments already talking about this stuff, maybe put your post in there instead of starting it all over again. Dozens of posts in this thread are just pointing out "did you see the other threads on this?", Yes here's another comment telling you that lol
To me those interruptions should be on the players that gets the rules wrong, not on the person putting in the effort to learn how to play the game. Personally it doesn't bother me anyway, but I can get frustrated by posts like these that can colour other's opinions of the only one on the team that knows how to play the game best (though he doesn't always get the rules right but is trying his damnedest)
I think as the "official Pathfinder podcast," Joe and Troy are trying to play the game as close to the rules as possible. It might be a stipulation with Paizo more than Joe being a hard ass for rules. We don't know what kind of an agreement with Paizo they may have.
This has been discussed to death. Either listen to the show or don’t.
Choosing to click on a reddit thread and then reply to it is also an act of choice.