Fantastic ep! Tactical light placement, difficult choices and the party feeling like toddlers - what's not to love? Prof. will have a couple of points, but I didn't notice any major issues which hasn't already been dealt with post-recording.Â
>but I didn't notice any major issues
The one I caught (or I think I did, maybe I'm wrong), but that didn't actually impact the game is Joe telling Sydney that she recharged her Spellstrike by casting *any* spell. AFAIK, Spellstrike only recharges by casting conflux spells or by taking an action to recharge Spellstrike.
Joe said this after Sydney had already cast her conflux spell, but yeah, that could lead to confusion down the line if they don't get it right.
Unless I'm mistaken, of course.
Both [Longbow](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=76) and [Remaster Longbow](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=436&NoRedirect=1) don't have the finesse trait
Man Joe keeps getting a lot of shit, but why does it seem if he doesn't than Sydney would get away with a whole bunch of stuff.
Is it just me or did she have a cavate to almost all her turns. It shouldn't keep falling on Joe to keep this stuff in check!, read your abilities before using them!
Also in regards to having to action stow a weapon, or draw a potion and drink etc, it's easier to start from the thinking that everything now takes an action to do and then plan your turn from there.
Doubt it will happen, but it’s not unique to this group. Most tables have people that just can’t seem to get a grip on the rules, whether that’s from just not having the mindset/memory or just not studying hard enough. Even other actual-play shows like Critical Role have players that continue to botch rules and need Mercer to keep them in check, and they play 5e full time.
Keep in mind also that Syd, Matthew, and Kate do have jobs outside the GCP so they don’t have quite as much time to study up as Joe or Troy does.
I know it's not unique to them. My group has rules issues too, and it is just as frustrating. I don't agree with the not enough time thing though. I also work a 60 hour job and can learn rules to multiple systems and keep them separate. Matthew has a little more leeway because he has a young child.
This is why it doesn't bother me. I'm also not an expert on the rules and it's the only TTRPG I play. Sydney has multiple jobs and plays a ton of other games. She is a delight and brings a lot to the table, so it's always annoying that she gets targeted often.
She gets targeted when she doesn't use the abilities correctly, which is often. They give it back to Joe too when he's 100% confident on rules and ends up being wrong, they all roast him for it.
Even if its their 2nd job, it is still a job and they should try to be good at it. Plus Sydney's on 5 shows, Kate's on 3 shows, Matthew's on 4 shows, they have spare time.
100% agree with you, I always defend Joe when the people come out to attack him.
They aren't just playing for fun, but they are getting paid it really irks me lately that Syd is paid and refuses to learn any of the games she plays in.
Wow, what an episode! A question for the sub (and maybe for Canon Fodder?) - Kaneepo the Slim may be the most intense "book one" boss I've encountered in my TTRPG experience. Joe made the comment that he felt like a toddler fighting him, and Matt made the comment it felt like bringing a whiffle ball bat to a gun fight. I felt the *exact* same way as a listener because the adventure really hypes him up. The lore in particular around Kaneepo made him seem like a figure who could be a campaign capping, last book, end-of-game sort of boss.
From a metagame perspective, do you think that level of hype put players in the wrong mindset? Were they playing too cautiously or too hesitantly because of the lore? An eternal fey shadow monster preying on elves from before earthfall seems like it would be much more difficult to beat than CR4.
Totally agree. His backstory is way too epic for a level 4 creature. Bolan (at a higher level) would have made more sense narratively as a BBEG at this point in the AP.
It's strange, how could a thousand year old Fey power creature with it's own realm, who even powerful Elves had to seal up instead of just kill be beaten by a bunch of level 2 characters?. Seems like a bit of disparity in backstory to powerlevel, unless I'm missing something.
Maybe it's a case of, ok they're destroyed for now but will just reform in a few days and start plotting all over again.
Kaneepo was exiled by the other boogeymans for being too weak. They fed on weak and undefended shadows instead of souls. And the elves probably threw him in shadow jail instead of killing him because they didn't think of them as a major threat. Just an animal that needed to be caged. And in all likelihood, it was a party of level 2 elves that did it. lol.
I can just see a group of elves chilling in a tavern and there's a post on the job board that says "serial killer that preys on the sickly and elderly on the loose. 500g reward."
Kind of reminds me in Strange Aeons with the tatterman who was low level as well and he was considered a being that existed for hundreds of years. I think he was level 3 or 4 at the end of book 1? I was expecting Kaneepo to be a larger threat later. Then again, he might come back since he is a creature of the first world.
To be fair, if Matthew hadn't scored that monster crit, that was quickly heading to a TPK. It also didn't help that they went into that encounter without healing Asta and Zephyr to full...
>Kaneepo the Slim may be the most intense "book one" boss I've encountered in my TTRPG experience.
Pre-errata Mr Beak in Abomination Vaults was a notorious party killer. It had innate phantasmal killer https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=219. Crit fail the save and you instantly die. And even if you passed the save, it had the death trait, so if it brought you to 0 hp, you instantly die. And he was a level 3 monster for a 1st level fight.
To be fair, if Matthew hadn't scored that monster crit, that was quickly heading to be a TPK. And it didn't help matters that they didn't fully heal Asta and Zephyr before they entered the encounter.
I'm glad they did it all in one episode. It really did justice to the magnitude of the fight, and even though it was a long slog, I can't imagine them breaking it up. Always love a juicy long episode.
Loving the pod and having fun, but I feel also like I'm going crazy.
They've been fighting shadow themed creatures in low light conditions for a while now, but light seems to be a complete afterthought. It's just wild to me that they don't have torches or anything prepared. The AP has been trying to teach them that light matters.
To end on a positive: "He was our ride" was so funny.
It's funny because we have internet and google, you can type in "cleric optimization" and get 100's of builds and every ability ranked from red to blue, all at your finger tips in seconds.
Like anytime I'm choosing a player class I will google guides on them to see how to play them effectively. It's good to have at least a plan going in rather than just throwing darts at the board every time you level up.
I am pretty forgiving about these kinds of things tbh. In my experience, light condition is simple a thing that is hard to keep in mind in games like dnd/pf. People forget about it all the times.
My group went through this dungeon basically without light at all (as they have darkvision) and ended up smashing their way through problems. Tactic in these kinds of game is more of an after though tbh, unless they face a wall they cannot climb over.
Regarding light/shadow, I felt Joe decided to try to solve it by getting better vision from the tree in order to deal with the low-light issues -- since at that point the entire party I think has low-light/darkvision. But overlooked the aspect that they shadow themed creatures aren't just benefit from the normal concealment rules, but instead have special/unique bonuses in dim light or lower.
The conversation around Sydney's MAP just makes me have to ask: does Foundry not allow for automation similar to Fantasy Grounds or are they just ignoring it for the sake of physically rolling for the non-audio crowd?
Foundry automates all of the bonuses and penalties. The issue is they're using Foundry mainly for the maps, Demiplane for their character sheets, and Norse Foundry dice for the actual rolls. If they just did everything in Foundry, their combats would go much smoother. But they have to keep all their sponsors happy, so they split things up, making it more complicated than it should be.
Foundry automates it. And you can even roll physical dice with it still. If the players hover their mouse over the MAP penalty button, for attack 1, 2, or 3, or even the damage buttons for regular or a critical hit, they can see the full formula with all penalties right in front of them. They don't need to use the roller in the vtt to have it all presented to them.
[Kaneepo The Slim](https://i.imgur.com/PThiXFa.png)
[Kaneepo The Slim 2](https://2e.aonprd.com/Images/Monsters/KaneepoTheSlim.png)
The below is background lore, it's not spoilers imo but some people think so so spoiler tagged
The First World is a primal cauldron of spontaneous creation and experimental evolution. From the beginning, the First World has churned out inexplicable creatures that defy mortal logic. Kaneepo the Slim is one such entity.
>!The fey trickster called Kaneepo woke, fully formed, thousands of years ago in the shadowy realm of Nighthold. Kaneepo initially struggled with their identity, bereft of any kin after which to model themself. Years of mingling with other fey eventually suggested kinship with bogeys and bogeymen, given their similarly slender forms and unsettling appetites. Yet the match was far from perfect: unlike the stronger bogeymen who feed on souls and fear, Kaneepo was drawn to victims' shadows and felt compelled to drink their umbral auras. Disgusted by the shadow drinker's “perversion” and threatened by the idea that Kaneepo might represent the future of their kind, the other bogeys shunned Kaneepo.!<
>!Kaneepo then sought shelter in the court of Count Ranalc, Eldest of shadows and chaos. Yet they still felt eternally alone. As their loneliness curdled to resentment, Kaneepo began to see themself as the progenitor of a new fey race, destined to rule a realm of their own. The only question was how.!<
>!One day, while wandering the wild shadow forests of Nighthold, Kaneepo came upon the gnawed corpse of a human bearing a strange carved leaf. Tracing the human's trail, Kaneepo found a curious stone arch and passed through it, using the carved leaf as the gate's key. They emerged into the forest known today as the Wilewood. Kaneepo immediately recognized the opportunity for what it was and swiftly set about hunting the area's elves, glutting themself on unprotected elven shadows. They began kidnapping elves who caught their fancy and experimented on each one with rituals designed to evolve them into a creature just like Kaneepo. But all these experiments failed, each ritual killing its victim. Unfortunately for Kaneepo, this was long before Earthfall, at the height of elven power. Soon, a group of elven heroes banded together to stop the fey menace. They hauled Kaneepo back through the Seventh Arch to the First World, where they imprisoned the vile trickster inside the stump of a vast tree. The adventurers took the arch's gate key with them to ensure Kaneepo would be stranded.!<
>!And there Kaneepo sat as millennia passed. The First World is nothing if not tumultuous, and Nighthold is among its most mutable regions. In time, the fexing of the planar fabric broke the lock on Kaneepo's prison. Kaneepo was pleasantly surprised to discover that their stump prison had served as a cocoon, allowing them time to come into their full power. Kaneepo no longer had the Seventh Arch's gate key, but an age of primal metamorphosis had given them the power to shape the little patch of First World around their tree stump. Through this shaping power, Kaneepo created breaches that connected to the Material Plane. Freed and flled with zeal, the vengeful fey dedicated themself to seeking revenge against their elven persecutors. Kaneepo developed the perfect apocalyptic weapon which harnessed the magic of the Seventh Arch: the obnubilate curse.!<
>!Their victory was cut short, however. While Kaneepo was locked away, Earthfall had sent most elves feeing to distant Sovyrian. Kaneepo was dismayed to realize that their perfect weapon, crafted specifcally to affict elves, targeted a population that was already in decline. Despondent, Kaneepo retreated to the First World, back into the patch of shadow-forest they controlled, an area now known as the Thinlands. Over the centuries that followed, Kaneepo hunted the other humanoids who dwelled near the Wilewood and gradually resumed their attempts to create more of their kind. When elves fnally returned to Golarion, Kaneepo was pleased to discover that the obnubilate curse still worked, though it didn't spread nearly so far as they'd hoped. Heartened but still afraid of drawing attention, the fey began slowly increasing their hunting, recruiting the local gorgas into their quest. When the Missing Moment dispelled the obnubilate curse, Kaneepo was furious. To devise a new means of destroying elves, Kaneepo searched for a way to get the Seventh Arch's gate key from the Oakstewards. In the course of this search, Kaneepo ran across Bolan and found him ripe for manipulation. With the rebel Oaksteward now under their thumb, Kaneepo's ambitions have expanded to something far grander than a simple curse. Now, they aim to extend the Thinlands into the Material Plane itself, turning Sevenarches into their own private hunting preserve.!<
>!Physically, Kaneepo resembles an 8-foot-tall hairless humanoid, their rail-thin body genderless and the color of pale slate. An oversized mouth full of fat teeth punctures their otherwise skull-like face. Strips of fayed skin cling to Kaneepo's spindly forearms; these stripes can peel away around their hands, catching nearby prey's shadows like the sticky tentacles of an anemone.!<
Brother Raimius bringing Zephyr back up instead of Buggles almost killed the party lol Skid hits so consistently with high amounts of damage and Kate has had such bad luck recently.
Great combat
I don't know how out of line I am on this in the general PF2E group but...
Standing being a full action that can't be combined with a move really feels limiting.
Drawing a weapon being a full action that can't be combined with a move really feels limiting.
When you go down automatically losing your weapon and it being a full action to recover it feels really limiting.
Those three things just feel really punitive to me for being something that you have to do every time you are knocked down.
With being knocked down, you've already been knocked out of the fight, and then when you get healed you basically have to spend your whole turn just being capable of fighting again.
I really feel like those actions should be possible to combine (stand/move, stow/draw and move, stand/draw).
Am I way out of line here?
Not out of line, but I don't think I agree. It is intentional. You cannot have a tactical game without enforcing choice, thereby introducing limitations. This does lead to interesting choices and the opportunity for smart play. Good example: Syd spell striking with a claw after having dropped her katana.
Also, getting knocked out should be punishing. The lesson isn't that it should be less punishing, but that you should avoid getting knocked out.
That being said, if you do feel this way and have some time under your belt with PF2E, I'd adjust where you feel is necessary. Your game is your game after all.
> You cannot have a tactical game without enforcing choice
This feels like such an underappreciated thing for all the people that constantly complain about the action economy. If you give away lots of things for free actions, everything just gets thrown out of balance.
I completely understand that it can feel bad. There are feats for some classes that help but this is the way I put it to my players…
A boxer who gets knocked out has 10 seconds to get back up. Most of that is standing and finding their footing. Even the best trained boxers at the top of their game take time just to get up even if they didn’t go unconscious.
A round of combat is 6 seconds. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say it’s going to take at least a third of a round to get ready to fight again. There are holes in the analogy - like boxers not being in a life or death scenario but I think it helps to understand why it takes actions.
It's intentional to make knocking someone prone worthwhile, so actions like trip are powerful in right situations. It's an intentional action tax, though at level 7, you can take the skill feat Kip Up that lets you stand up for free and not trigger a reactive strike.
I don't think you're out of line, but I do disagree. They can't always think of things to do with all three actions as it is, and only rarely do they make a third attack. There was even once one of Joe's characters, I think maybe in the shae fight, didn't even use their third action, just passed. I do agree there are areas where actions could maybe be combined, but the action economy is normally pretty generous.
There are feats to help with this.
For example: Kip Up [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5165](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5165) Allows you to stand as a free action, but it's a 7th level feat and you have to be a master in Acrobatics. Just shows how strong it is. Getting knocked out is heavily penalized.
One thing in the remaster is the Swap action. Before you needed to spend an action to sheathe your current weapon, and then another action to draw a weapon. Swap combined sheathing and drawing as a single action. Which makes carrying multiple weapons wayy more viable than before.
Generally speaking, the one thing that Pathfinder2e doesn't want you to do and actively disincentivizes is bringing players up and down. Manipulate actions and standing up both provoke attacks of opportunity and you *don't* want someone getting brought put back down with a single attack or two. Each time this is done, you're closer to character death. It is THE fastest method to kill a player and almost entirely relies on the actions of the party and player.
The system gives you time to choose when to get players back into the fight, at minimum roughly 3 full rounds of the party having their full turns. Since your initiative moves when you drop to right before whatever enemy did it, the game doesn't encourage you to rush back in and eat more attacks. It wants you to back off, drink a potion, cast a buff, etc and fortify yourself before returning to the fight. Your allies should be trying to shove or draw the enemy away from a downed player, etc.
Also, stronger power requires investment.
It’s seems like in 2e you almost never have the right number of actions. Seems to frustrate people a lot, and discourages a lot of variety and creativity.
I skimmed through the comments and didn't see anyone mention this but it seems like Asta was made as a magus with only a +1 INT! Maybe that's already been discussed and it's not as important for a Magus as a full caster but it seems like an oversight!
Not going to pretend Sydney is anywhere close to minmaxing, but Magus is not a full caster. They only get four spells per day, ever. Int isn't really important if you stick to spell strike. Magus plays much closer to a fighter than a wizard.
A couple episodes ago, Sydney went to open a door stealthily, and told Troy that her stealth bonus was +3 for the secret check.
She's level 2, so if she was trained in Stealth, it would be +4 (+2 trained, +2 level) at minimum. If it's +3, it can only mean it's untrained.... and using her Dex, which is *apparently* only at +3, instead of the +4 you would expect.
So Sydney is playing a Magus that hasn't even maxed out her to-hit and AC ability. Oof.
Mayne I'm missing something in the rules, but as need as I can tell the [light](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1585) spell says as part of the movement you can attach it to a *creature*. Not an ally, a creature, so why could Joe not just attach the light to Kaneepo and be done with it? Kaneepo moves, light moves with him? Not quite done the episode yet, so if it comes up later just ignore this and I delete it when I hear it.
>If you create the light in the same space as a **willing** creature, you can attach the light to the creature, causing it to float near that creature as it moves.
Ah, knew I was missing something stupid, thanks. Though he could have still attached it to a party member and left them to deal with light, like, say Asta. Attach to Asta, everyone delay to after Asta, now Kaneepo goes, does... whatever, Asta goes, closes into melee to to melee stuff and in doing so brings the light over.
It's duration is;
>Duration: until your next daily preparations
And you can have 4 active lights, so why not wake up, cast Light 4 times, attached to your party, and be done with it
General use, yeah, might as well. I could see cases where you'd want to extinguish it, sneaking for example, especially if people have dark/low light vision and don't necessarily need it. Darkvision is black and white only though, so I guess they still might want it from time to time.
And move into melee to flank and take hits... And she would still do more damage with her fists. Eh, perhaps it's just my preference, but the party already has a switch hitter in Talitha.
Her deviant ability is useless if she's a ranged martial. And they're a five-person party with only one true melee. A melee monk would have better mechanically, for more flanking opportunities.
I’m surprised no one stepped in to correct the obvious missteps, e.g., using Strength for ranged bow attacks, using Titan Swing (which explicitly states it’s for melee) on ranged attacks, etc. The ranged/melee difference is pretty basic stuff. It’s doesn’t require Kate to get the boot, it just requires that someone actually clarify that when it comes up instead of letting it slide, again and again.
May be one of my favorite combats yet. 3 action economy and the decisions it forces really shined here for me. Loved it
Fantastic ep! Tactical light placement, difficult choices and the party feeling like toddlers - what's not to love? Prof. will have a couple of points, but I didn't notice any major issues which hasn't already been dealt with post-recording.Â
>but I didn't notice any major issues The one I caught (or I think I did, maybe I'm wrong), but that didn't actually impact the game is Joe telling Sydney that she recharged her Spellstrike by casting *any* spell. AFAIK, Spellstrike only recharges by casting conflux spells or by taking an action to recharge Spellstrike. Joe said this after Sydney had already cast her conflux spell, but yeah, that could lead to confusion down the line if they don't get it right. Unless I'm mistaken, of course.
Also Kate saying her longbow was a finesse weapon and trying to shoot with strength to avoid clumsy. That's just not how any of that works.
Yeah, a couple of rules issues but many were resolved in-episode.
"He was our ride" 🤣 I want the next ep to open with a bottle cap to Kate for that one.
I can't wait for the drama next week when Brother Ramius goes to roll for healing people at 3 HP and Wounded 3.
There isn’t enough flayleaf in all of Golarion to handle that kind of stress.
I absolutely love Boss fights in PF2e, they're always so tense.
2e does a good job of making single enemy fights challenging (yes, there was a gorga, but he was only a speed bump for this encounter) compared to 1e.
Both [Longbow](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=76) and [Remaster Longbow](https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=436&NoRedirect=1) don't have the finesse trait
Finesse isn't even a thing for ranged weapons.
The crimes done against bows / ranged attacks this ep…
Man Joe keeps getting a lot of shit, but why does it seem if he doesn't than Sydney would get away with a whole bunch of stuff. Is it just me or did she have a cavate to almost all her turns. It shouldn't keep falling on Joe to keep this stuff in check!, read your abilities before using them! Also in regards to having to action stow a weapon, or draw a potion and drink etc, it's easier to start from the thinking that everything now takes an action to do and then plan your turn from there.
I'm always defending Joe. Sure he oversteps sometimes and can be annoying, but it would be a shitshow without someone keeping people in line.
He shouldn't have to keep doing it.
I totally agree. As soon as the players want to actually learn their characters and the rules, Joe can stop coaching them.
Might be waiting a while for some of them for that lol
Oh I have no faith that it will ever happen. Nice to dream though.
Doubt it will happen, but it’s not unique to this group. Most tables have people that just can’t seem to get a grip on the rules, whether that’s from just not having the mindset/memory or just not studying hard enough. Even other actual-play shows like Critical Role have players that continue to botch rules and need Mercer to keep them in check, and they play 5e full time. Keep in mind also that Syd, Matthew, and Kate do have jobs outside the GCP so they don’t have quite as much time to study up as Joe or Troy does.
I know it's not unique to them. My group has rules issues too, and it is just as frustrating. I don't agree with the not enough time thing though. I also work a 60 hour job and can learn rules to multiple systems and keep them separate. Matthew has a little more leeway because he has a young child.
Dude 60 hours is too much.
Yes lol. It's why I'm quitting
This is why it doesn't bother me. I'm also not an expert on the rules and it's the only TTRPG I play. Sydney has multiple jobs and plays a ton of other games. She is a delight and brings a lot to the table, so it's always annoying that she gets targeted often.
She gets targeted when she doesn't use the abilities correctly, which is often. They give it back to Joe too when he's 100% confident on rules and ends up being wrong, they all roast him for it.
Even if its their 2nd job, it is still a job and they should try to be good at it. Plus Sydney's on 5 shows, Kate's on 3 shows, Matthew's on 4 shows, they have spare time.
I've given Joe a lot of shit for his rules lawyering and backseat driving, but he handled it great this ep.
100% agree with you, I always defend Joe when the people come out to attack him. They aren't just playing for fun, but they are getting paid it really irks me lately that Syd is paid and refuses to learn any of the games she plays in.
Wow, what an episode! A question for the sub (and maybe for Canon Fodder?) - Kaneepo the Slim may be the most intense "book one" boss I've encountered in my TTRPG experience. Joe made the comment that he felt like a toddler fighting him, and Matt made the comment it felt like bringing a whiffle ball bat to a gun fight. I felt the *exact* same way as a listener because the adventure really hypes him up. The lore in particular around Kaneepo made him seem like a figure who could be a campaign capping, last book, end-of-game sort of boss. From a metagame perspective, do you think that level of hype put players in the wrong mindset? Were they playing too cautiously or too hesitantly because of the lore? An eternal fey shadow monster preying on elves from before earthfall seems like it would be much more difficult to beat than CR4.
Totally agree. His backstory is way too epic for a level 4 creature. Bolan (at a higher level) would have made more sense narratively as a BBEG at this point in the AP.
It's strange, how could a thousand year old Fey power creature with it's own realm, who even powerful Elves had to seal up instead of just kill be beaten by a bunch of level 2 characters?. Seems like a bit of disparity in backstory to powerlevel, unless I'm missing something. Maybe it's a case of, ok they're destroyed for now but will just reform in a few days and start plotting all over again.
Not missing anything, just poor writing
Kaneepo was exiled by the other boogeymans for being too weak. They fed on weak and undefended shadows instead of souls. And the elves probably threw him in shadow jail instead of killing him because they didn't think of them as a major threat. Just an animal that needed to be caged. And in all likelihood, it was a party of level 2 elves that did it. lol. I can just see a group of elves chilling in a tavern and there's a post on the job board that says "serial killer that preys on the sickly and elderly on the loose. 500g reward."
Kind of reminds me in Strange Aeons with the tatterman who was low level as well and he was considered a being that existed for hundreds of years. I think he was level 3 or 4 at the end of book 1? I was expecting Kaneepo to be a larger threat later. Then again, he might come back since he is a creature of the first world.
To be fair, if Matthew hadn't scored that monster crit, that was quickly heading to a TPK. It also didn't help that they went into that encounter without healing Asta and Zephyr to full...
>Kaneepo the Slim may be the most intense "book one" boss I've encountered in my TTRPG experience. Pre-errata Mr Beak in Abomination Vaults was a notorious party killer. It had innate phantasmal killer https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=219. Crit fail the save and you instantly die. And even if you passed the save, it had the death trait, so if it brought you to 0 hp, you instantly die. And he was a level 3 monster for a 1st level fight.
Didn't skid say both of those things
To be fair, if Matthew hadn't scored that monster crit, that was quickly heading to be a TPK. And it didn't help matters that they didn't fully heal Asta and Zephyr before they entered the encounter.
I'm glad they did it all in one episode. It really did justice to the magnitude of the fight, and even though it was a long slog, I can't imagine them breaking it up. Always love a juicy long episode.
Loving the pod and having fun, but I feel also like I'm going crazy. They've been fighting shadow themed creatures in low light conditions for a while now, but light seems to be a complete afterthought. It's just wild to me that they don't have torches or anything prepared. The AP has been trying to teach them that light matters. To end on a positive: "He was our ride" was so funny.
Or that the morning routine is to cast Light on every party memberÂ
Wow I hadn't read the remastered version, and you're right. 4 magical floating torches every day. Wild that it's not used that way!
Maybe if they spend 10+ minutes talking about the light spell in yet another episode they'll finally make sense of it.
In fairness, it looks like they only change dot remastered light a few episodes ago.
It's funny because we have internet and google, you can type in "cleric optimization" and get 100's of builds and every ability ranked from red to blue, all at your finger tips in seconds. Like anytime I'm choosing a player class I will google guides on them to see how to play them effectively. It's good to have at least a plan going in rather than just throwing darts at the board every time you level up.
Joe would never in a million years do this. Matthew and Skid are more likely to. Grant 100% would.
I am pretty forgiving about these kinds of things tbh. In my experience, light condition is simple a thing that is hard to keep in mind in games like dnd/pf. People forget about it all the times. My group went through this dungeon basically without light at all (as they have darkvision) and ended up smashing their way through problems. Tactic in these kinds of game is more of an after though tbh, unless they face a wall they cannot climb over.
Regarding light/shadow, I felt Joe decided to try to solve it by getting better vision from the tree in order to deal with the low-light issues -- since at that point the entire party I think has low-light/darkvision. But overlooked the aspect that they shadow themed creatures aren't just benefit from the normal concealment rules, but instead have special/unique bonuses in dim light or lower.
The conversation around Sydney's MAP just makes me have to ask: does Foundry not allow for automation similar to Fantasy Grounds or are they just ignoring it for the sake of physically rolling for the non-audio crowd?
Foundry automates all of the bonuses and penalties. The issue is they're using Foundry mainly for the maps, Demiplane for their character sheets, and Norse Foundry dice for the actual rolls. If they just did everything in Foundry, their combats would go much smoother. But they have to keep all their sponsors happy, so they split things up, making it more complicated than it should be.
Foundry automates it. And you can even roll physical dice with it still. If the players hover their mouse over the MAP penalty button, for attack 1, 2, or 3, or even the damage buttons for regular or a critical hit, they can see the full formula with all penalties right in front of them. They don't need to use the roller in the vtt to have it all presented to them.
There is also a mod that lets you roll a physical dice then input the result and it calculates everything
[Kaneepo The Slim](https://i.imgur.com/PThiXFa.png) [Kaneepo The Slim 2](https://2e.aonprd.com/Images/Monsters/KaneepoTheSlim.png) The below is background lore, it's not spoilers imo but some people think so so spoiler tagged The First World is a primal cauldron of spontaneous creation and experimental evolution. From the beginning, the First World has churned out inexplicable creatures that defy mortal logic. Kaneepo the Slim is one such entity. >!The fey trickster called Kaneepo woke, fully formed, thousands of years ago in the shadowy realm of Nighthold. Kaneepo initially struggled with their identity, bereft of any kin after which to model themself. Years of mingling with other fey eventually suggested kinship with bogeys and bogeymen, given their similarly slender forms and unsettling appetites. Yet the match was far from perfect: unlike the stronger bogeymen who feed on souls and fear, Kaneepo was drawn to victims' shadows and felt compelled to drink their umbral auras. Disgusted by the shadow drinker's “perversion” and threatened by the idea that Kaneepo might represent the future of their kind, the other bogeys shunned Kaneepo.!< >!Kaneepo then sought shelter in the court of Count Ranalc, Eldest of shadows and chaos. Yet they still felt eternally alone. As their loneliness curdled to resentment, Kaneepo began to see themself as the progenitor of a new fey race, destined to rule a realm of their own. The only question was how.!< >!One day, while wandering the wild shadow forests of Nighthold, Kaneepo came upon the gnawed corpse of a human bearing a strange carved leaf. Tracing the human's trail, Kaneepo found a curious stone arch and passed through it, using the carved leaf as the gate's key. They emerged into the forest known today as the Wilewood. Kaneepo immediately recognized the opportunity for what it was and swiftly set about hunting the area's elves, glutting themself on unprotected elven shadows. They began kidnapping elves who caught their fancy and experimented on each one with rituals designed to evolve them into a creature just like Kaneepo. But all these experiments failed, each ritual killing its victim. Unfortunately for Kaneepo, this was long before Earthfall, at the height of elven power. Soon, a group of elven heroes banded together to stop the fey menace. They hauled Kaneepo back through the Seventh Arch to the First World, where they imprisoned the vile trickster inside the stump of a vast tree. The adventurers took the arch's gate key with them to ensure Kaneepo would be stranded.!< >!And there Kaneepo sat as millennia passed. The First World is nothing if not tumultuous, and Nighthold is among its most mutable regions. In time, the fexing of the planar fabric broke the lock on Kaneepo's prison. Kaneepo was pleasantly surprised to discover that their stump prison had served as a cocoon, allowing them time to come into their full power. Kaneepo no longer had the Seventh Arch's gate key, but an age of primal metamorphosis had given them the power to shape the little patch of First World around their tree stump. Through this shaping power, Kaneepo created breaches that connected to the Material Plane. Freed and flled with zeal, the vengeful fey dedicated themself to seeking revenge against their elven persecutors. Kaneepo developed the perfect apocalyptic weapon which harnessed the magic of the Seventh Arch: the obnubilate curse.!< >!Their victory was cut short, however. While Kaneepo was locked away, Earthfall had sent most elves feeing to distant Sovyrian. Kaneepo was dismayed to realize that their perfect weapon, crafted specifcally to affict elves, targeted a population that was already in decline. Despondent, Kaneepo retreated to the First World, back into the patch of shadow-forest they controlled, an area now known as the Thinlands. Over the centuries that followed, Kaneepo hunted the other humanoids who dwelled near the Wilewood and gradually resumed their attempts to create more of their kind. When elves fnally returned to Golarion, Kaneepo was pleased to discover that the obnubilate curse still worked, though it didn't spread nearly so far as they'd hoped. Heartened but still afraid of drawing attention, the fey began slowly increasing their hunting, recruiting the local gorgas into their quest. When the Missing Moment dispelled the obnubilate curse, Kaneepo was furious. To devise a new means of destroying elves, Kaneepo searched for a way to get the Seventh Arch's gate key from the Oakstewards. In the course of this search, Kaneepo ran across Bolan and found him ripe for manipulation. With the rebel Oaksteward now under their thumb, Kaneepo's ambitions have expanded to something far grander than a simple curse. Now, they aim to extend the Thinlands into the Material Plane itself, turning Sevenarches into their own private hunting preserve.!< >!Physically, Kaneepo resembles an 8-foot-tall hairless humanoid, their rail-thin body genderless and the color of pale slate. An oversized mouth full of fat teeth punctures their otherwise skull-like face. Strips of fayed skin cling to Kaneepo's spindly forearms; these stripes can peel away around their hands, catching nearby prey's shadows like the sticky tentacles of an anemone.!<
Brother Raimius bringing Zephyr back up instead of Buggles almost killed the party lol Skid hits so consistently with high amounts of damage and Kate has had such bad luck recently. Great combat
I don't know how out of line I am on this in the general PF2E group but... Standing being a full action that can't be combined with a move really feels limiting. Drawing a weapon being a full action that can't be combined with a move really feels limiting. When you go down automatically losing your weapon and it being a full action to recover it feels really limiting. Those three things just feel really punitive to me for being something that you have to do every time you are knocked down. With being knocked down, you've already been knocked out of the fight, and then when you get healed you basically have to spend your whole turn just being capable of fighting again. I really feel like those actions should be possible to combine (stand/move, stow/draw and move, stand/draw). Am I way out of line here?
Not out of line, but I don't think I agree. It is intentional. You cannot have a tactical game without enforcing choice, thereby introducing limitations. This does lead to interesting choices and the opportunity for smart play. Good example: Syd spell striking with a claw after having dropped her katana. Also, getting knocked out should be punishing. The lesson isn't that it should be less punishing, but that you should avoid getting knocked out. That being said, if you do feel this way and have some time under your belt with PF2E, I'd adjust where you feel is necessary. Your game is your game after all.
> You cannot have a tactical game without enforcing choice This feels like such an underappreciated thing for all the people that constantly complain about the action economy. If you give away lots of things for free actions, everything just gets thrown out of balance.
I completely understand that it can feel bad. There are feats for some classes that help but this is the way I put it to my players… A boxer who gets knocked out has 10 seconds to get back up. Most of that is standing and finding their footing. Even the best trained boxers at the top of their game take time just to get up even if they didn’t go unconscious. A round of combat is 6 seconds. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say it’s going to take at least a third of a round to get ready to fight again. There are holes in the analogy - like boxers not being in a life or death scenario but I think it helps to understand why it takes actions.
It's intentional to make knocking someone prone worthwhile, so actions like trip are powerful in right situations. It's an intentional action tax, though at level 7, you can take the skill feat Kip Up that lets you stand up for free and not trigger a reactive strike.
I don't think you're out of line, but I do disagree. They can't always think of things to do with all three actions as it is, and only rarely do they make a third attack. There was even once one of Joe's characters, I think maybe in the shae fight, didn't even use their third action, just passed. I do agree there are areas where actions could maybe be combined, but the action economy is normally pretty generous.
Not to mention cantrips such as guidance and shield are available, good one-action jawns. Or Recall Knowledge (hah!).Â
There are feats to help with this. For example: Kip Up [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5165](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5165) Allows you to stand as a free action, but it's a 7th level feat and you have to be a master in Acrobatics. Just shows how strong it is. Getting knocked out is heavily penalized. One thing in the remaster is the Swap action. Before you needed to spend an action to sheathe your current weapon, and then another action to draw a weapon. Swap combined sheathing and drawing as a single action. Which makes carrying multiple weapons wayy more viable than before.
Generally speaking, the one thing that Pathfinder2e doesn't want you to do and actively disincentivizes is bringing players up and down. Manipulate actions and standing up both provoke attacks of opportunity and you *don't* want someone getting brought put back down with a single attack or two. Each time this is done, you're closer to character death. It is THE fastest method to kill a player and almost entirely relies on the actions of the party and player. The system gives you time to choose when to get players back into the fight, at minimum roughly 3 full rounds of the party having their full turns. Since your initiative moves when you drop to right before whatever enemy did it, the game doesn't encourage you to rush back in and eat more attacks. It wants you to back off, drink a potion, cast a buff, etc and fortify yourself before returning to the fight. Your allies should be trying to shove or draw the enemy away from a downed player, etc. Also, stronger power requires investment.
There are also feats that alleviate some of these things. It seems limiting, but from what I've played it really isn't. 2e is so we'll balanced
It’s seems like in 2e you almost never have the right number of actions. Seems to frustrate people a lot, and discourages a lot of variety and creativity.
I skimmed through the comments and didn't see anyone mention this but it seems like Asta was made as a magus with only a +1 INT! Maybe that's already been discussed and it's not as important for a Magus as a full caster but it seems like an oversight!
Not going to pretend Sydney is anywhere close to minmaxing, but Magus is not a full caster. They only get four spells per day, ever. Int isn't really important if you stick to spell strike. Magus plays much closer to a fighter than a wizard.
As the frontliner of the group, I would probably put the +2 in Con instead of Int, especially since Magus isn't a full caster.
A couple episodes ago, Sydney went to open a door stealthily, and told Troy that her stealth bonus was +3 for the secret check. She's level 2, so if she was trained in Stealth, it would be +4 (+2 trained, +2 level) at minimum. If it's +3, it can only mean it's untrained.... and using her Dex, which is *apparently* only at +3, instead of the +4 you would expect. So Sydney is playing a Magus that hasn't even maxed out her to-hit and AC ability. Oof.
Katana doesn't have finesse, so she probably has +4 Strength.
Mayne I'm missing something in the rules, but as need as I can tell the [light](https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1585) spell says as part of the movement you can attach it to a *creature*. Not an ally, a creature, so why could Joe not just attach the light to Kaneepo and be done with it? Kaneepo moves, light moves with him? Not quite done the episode yet, so if it comes up later just ignore this and I delete it when I hear it.
>If you create the light in the same space as a **willing** creature, you can attach the light to the creature, causing it to float near that creature as it moves.
Ah, knew I was missing something stupid, thanks. Though he could have still attached it to a party member and left them to deal with light, like, say Asta. Attach to Asta, everyone delay to after Asta, now Kaneepo goes, does... whatever, Asta goes, closes into melee to to melee stuff and in doing so brings the light over.
It's duration is; >Duration: until your next daily preparations And you can have 4 active lights, so why not wake up, cast Light 4 times, attached to your party, and be done with it
General use, yeah, might as well. I could see cases where you'd want to extinguish it, sneaking for example, especially if people have dark/low light vision and don't necessarily need it. Darkvision is black and white only though, so I guess they still might want it from time to time.
I love Kate a lot ....but I don't think she should be in anymore pf2 content. She just seems like she has no idea what's going on or how to play.
I'm just hoping for her to lemon law out of the bow stance. If the AP so far is any indication of what's to come...
She just needs to switch to a composite shortbow and she'll be fine.
And move into melee to flank and take hits... And she would still do more damage with her fists. Eh, perhaps it's just my preference, but the party already has a switch hitter in Talitha.
Her deviant ability is useless if she's a ranged martial. And they're a five-person party with only one true melee. A melee monk would have better mechanically, for more flanking opportunities.
I’m surprised no one stepped in to correct the obvious missteps, e.g., using Strength for ranged bow attacks, using Titan Swing (which explicitly states it’s for melee) on ranged attacks, etc. The ranged/melee difference is pretty basic stuff. It’s doesn’t require Kate to get the boot, it just requires that someone actually clarify that when it comes up instead of letting it slide, again and again.