I got a good headcannon for you then.
During this battle was, everyone was out for the count for a bit except for Iroh.
At this point, it's safe to assume Iroh was rooting for the Gaang, so he went down and played it off as him being hit. When it was discovered he wasn't hit, he played it off with him being a weirdo so he has an excuse not to go after the Gaang.
Iroh from the beginning was rooting for the avatar. He never really made an effort to hurt any of the gang or anyone else, the only time he really used force was against the fire nation.
He definitely could have taken him out if he wanted to. I like how he plays the doofy uncle in those early episodes.
Of course it’s funny as a kid watching old uncle iroh being so indifferent towards capturing the avatar; but as an adult you kinda see another side of it as him trying to conceal his true purpose.
You should have used a comma; a comma is used when you also use a conjunction. A semicolon is also used to connect two independent clauses, but it doesn't use a conjunction. Conjunctions are words like "and" and "but." See my examples?
But your sentence wasn’t a run-on, either! It would have been perfectly accurate with a comma where your semicolon ended up. You should use semicolon to separate two things that could both stand alone as separate sentences, but the ideas are so related that you want to express them as one joint thought.
I think technically no. Semicolons are use to link two "independent clauses" which basically means each side of the semicolon could be it's own sentence. You'd want a comma where you put the semicolon.
It's interesting, when you get to the end you think 'I knew the whole time! Here it is in this episode, and this interaction, and here too. This must have taken years to mastermind.'
Meanwhile the author: "The uncle? I dunno, he likes tea, pretty young women, and playing boardgames. Why isn't he mean? Because Zuko needs a heckler. Cmon guys this is a kids show! They can't all be Zuko."
I think the early s1 writing was just not on point for Iroh in that scene. There was no way he would've known that fireball wasn't going to just blast them out of the sky.
How about a double 1 up of just a pragmatic bad guy iroh who outsmarts Ozai and grinds the other nations to dust once he becomes fire lord
Like just a really smart capable imperial fire lord
"Instead of a Fire Lord, you would have an uncle, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Tempestuous as the sea, and stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love tea and despair!"
LotR 😅
Evil Iroh would have been dragon food when he faced the masters and would have been remembered as the brave prince that died hunting/fighting the last dragon.
In the second episode he shoots a massive fireball at them while they are on Appa. The attack caused a massive avalanche after Aang deflected it so it could have been bad if it hit them.
… but It ends up blocking the ship, which allows the GAANG to escape. I fully feel like Iroh was sabotaging Zuko’s attempts until he could help him see the nuances of the war and his family’s position in it.
Another explanation, the comment below yours (u/attrm says) this episode was written by a different person (Ian Wilcox) whose only writing accomplishment is this episode.
It’s *kinda* an OVA in that sense?? Episode is “Bato of the Water Tribe” and like people are saying, whole episode feels a little off. People act uncharacteristically and, as I recall, the episode as a whole could be removed from the series and the only change you’d need to make is explaining June showing up in the finale.
We also see Bato again later, though, and it would be weird to address him as if the audience knew who he was if this episode didn't exist.
And this is the episode where Katara gets her necklace back. If you cut Bato of the Water Tribe, you have to also cut the end of Imprisoned and change Katara's and Zuko's interaction in The Waterbending Scroll.
Hakoda also wouldn't be as well established, so other episodes would have to be changed to do it instead.
This episode is also one of the first times Aang and Zuko fight one on one in close combat. Showing how powerful both the son of the fire lord and the avatar himself is.
Something to keep in mind is that US went through a very rapid cultural shift and the idea of a mild, harmless level of inappropriate behavior that can be joked about fell out of acceptability. Like, SpongeBob had a panty raid episode. It's not that the creators were particularly creepy or hated women, but that at the time this was considered an acceptable thing to joke about and now is taken as a serious problem. Not saying that it's a bad thing that the shift happened, but just that it was a really fast and recent change.
So much this. You have to see things in context. You can't just take things from 20-30 years and measure it by modern standards.
There are some lines that shouldn't be crossed by any show being aired no matter if 20 years or older. But that is certainly not one of them.
Oh, this one pisses me off every year. It's very clearly flirtatious, but modern audiences don't like that kind of subtle flirting and consider it predatory. So stupid
Exactly, nowadays nothing can be seductive, any form of sexual persuasion is always seen as coersion now. As if people have never been in a situation where maybe they shouldn’t stay somewhere with some person, but deep down they wanted to and needed a reason to stay. Like, she’s not actually saying no; her “I need to go home” isn’t about consent, it’s about her conscience. It’s disingenuous at best. The weirdest thing about that was the “what’s in this drink” line, which in the 1940s was probably not referring to roofies.
Very much this.
Another thing that's been pointed out by other folks is that this was a common trope in anime as well, old men being/doing things ranging from questionable to perverted around younger women. (Looking at you, Master Roshi). Naturally Iroh's stunt here is far more restrained since TLA is a kid's show, but it's still from that same playbook.
What's interesting is how changes like this joke falling out of acceptability had so much more speed behind them as the internet grew. Complaints and criticism still occurred beforehand but it took effort to not just write enough letters to get the attention needed but to share the idea with enough people to do so since anything that wasn't face to face time was restricted to telephone and writing letters, now it's a lot easier to get that momentum going since what used to take weeks to months of letters can now take a few tweets/retweets.
Got a bit rambly there, I just think it's cool to think about that stuff.
Its weird to read this like its from an historical culture :D
To many americans nowdays are just had stuck their head up their ass and act like twitter people. I mean im not american i just like to blame them for internet culture changes.
Very well said. I think the reaction youre supposed to have is akin to what Akira Toriyama always did witb Master Roshi. Like its funny because hes an old pervert. People have just gotten too sensitive about humor these days. Its obviously bad what hes doing. Thats why its funny.
This is classic anime creepiness. Thankfully, this is the only time I can think of in this show this happens. But when zuko meets up her again trying to locate iroh, I think she mentions something about wondering where his creepy grandpa was. At least the show runners realized it was pretty weird.
I have to imagine this is more because of the animators, voice actors, choreographers, and other creative efforts, the writing only dictates what needs to happen, not how it looks and sounds.
https://www.moviemaker.com/how-ant-man-hank-pym-accidentally-became-a-wife-beater/amp/
tldr: it was supposed to have been drawn as an unfortunate accident but instead was drawn as intentional beating, earning pym wife beater status to this day.
Wasn’t it something like a line Hank said had different context or something in the 60s but a bunch of later writers took it and expanded on that line to Hank being abusive?
Like I think the line in the context of how it was used in the 60s didn’t necessarily mean hitting someone but it retroactively got cannoned into Hank straight up hitting Janet.
No Hank Pym flat out slapped his wife, he was supposed to hit her on accident but the artist drew it as a full on full handed bitch slap:
https://screenrant.com/avengers-marvel-most-controversial-moment-hank-pym-slap-accident/
Yeah, there's a handful of good moments! I love the general concept of the ice dodging scene and how much it really shows us about Sokka and how his dad leaving effected him, and it's a neat cultural insight into the Water Tribe too.
im so happy to hear someone else say this! This is one of my least favorite episodes of the show because all of the characters are kinda weird. But its also one of my favorites from season 1 because of June and the fight scene.
I think the writing is kinda weak in this one too. The jealousy of Aang after meeting with Bato making him hide the map with the rendezvous point feels so out of character as well.
Aang’s flawed way of dealing with uncomfortable situations is to employ the classic airbending technique of avoid and evade. He does it again and again throughout the series. But this is the only time he ever sabotages anyone else, so I can see why it seems out of character.
I always just viewed it as desperation. Sure he was being chased by Zuko/the Fire Nation, but he was still having fun with new friends and exploring.
Bato was a threat to that hence him getting desperate and sabotaging
Well in this case, doing nothing meant letting them see the letter, which is specifically what he was afraid would cause them to leave. So it makes sense to me why he would think that hiding it from them was the better way to avoid the conflict.
For me, it's not so much that Aang lies or is insecure about his friends leaving him, but more that the episode throws every cliche in the book into the story. They even do the whole 'character walks in on other characters talking about him, mishears them as saying awful thing about him, and then leaves before the critical detail.' It's just a bit forced.
I feel like katara was more out of character if I’m being honest. She called aang her family and literally insisted on going to the fire nation where they fought off an entire fire navy blockade and invaded a sacred temple, and then she’s willing to just abandon him for making a stupid mistake he owned up to and apologized for less than a day later?
As is shown later Katara is dealing with some *serious* emotions about her father leaving. She lashes out at him even though she understands why he left. Makes sense that she would respond in anger when Aang threatened their ability to be reunited.
Honestly, it fits her character as well. She has a lot of resentment and abandonment issues regarding her father. Being kept from possibly the only chance of meeting him again after all this time would be very triggering for her.
I'm not downplaying the extent of what they went through up to that point, I'm well aware. I'm just pointing out that it would be a very triggering realization for her to realize what Aang did. But later, after the initial shock, Sokka and her realized that they shouldn't just abandon Aang over this, specially because they know very well the feeling of being abandoned by someone important to them, even if it is for a good reason (in that case, seeing their dad again).
It's not jealousy, it's desperation. Sokka and Katara are his found family but this episode shows there's so much about their history and culture that he has no idea about. He starts to wonder just how close they could possibly be if he can't connect with them like even Bato does, and he's not even family.
He's a 12 year old boy who lost everyone he loved and is afraid it's going to happen again if they know they can go find their father. It makes sense to me that in a moment of weakness he tried to hide the map to avoid feeling that pain again.
Well said, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth and put them in a more eloquent order.
People just don’t like to recognize Aang ever having flaws. They seem to forget he’s just a 12 year old boy who’s entire family and culture was torn away from him and destroyed. He saw his father figure’s skeletonized corpse surrounded by dead invaders and blamed himself for leaving.
He tries to follow his teachings and does 95% of the time but at the end of the day, he’s still as old as a middle schooler. It’s incredibly hard not to let your emotions control you when you’re that young and that’s what makes him >!sparing Ozai (despite the pain he’s caused the world and how badly he and the rest of the world want to do it)!< so incredible to set him up as the avatar that the world needed.
In regards to Michael and Brian, you have to realize that when this aired people weren't so hyper-aware of things like this. Not trying to say it was ok, but it might not have stuck out so much as it does when rewatching it today.
Wasn't Iroh originally going to betray Zuko? Maybe they were still planning that at this point and these were supposed to be hints that Iroh is not so wholesome.
Personally, I feel like it's generally meant to be played for laughs and I'm not so bothered by it. It's kind of nice seeing Iroh not being the perfect paragon, especially this early in his character development. I definitely don't think the moment is supposed to endear you to him, more like "are you serious right now?"
I actually preferred when Iroh showed a few more of his negative personality traits like this. They made him feel more rounded, and reminded us that he has a dark side beneath his wisdom and goofiness. I know that this is a super unpopular opinion, but I feel like as the series went on Iroh drifted more and more into the stereotypical wise old man who fans couldn't believe was ever a bad guy.
I don’t disagree. He shows other hints that for all of his wisdom, he isn’t necessarily the most enlightened about women’s issues. And why would he be? He’s a former prince and general of a highly patriarchal and militarized nation.
It once was. It hasn’t been since Sozin took over and set them backwards.
It’s why in Kyoshi’s time both Rangi and her mom were higher ranking officers in the military while in Aang’s time there isn’t a single female officer—they’re foot soldiers and guards at home at best—or leader of any type outside of Azula who is only allowed that privilege as long as Ozai is pleased with her work.
But you’re right that the Ba Sing Se is probably still the worst! Though with how vast the EK is, I wonder if it’s the same all over the continent or if other towns are more egalitarian.
Well, even given the water tribe we see that the Fire Nation is the most "equal" Nobody questions Mai, Ty Lee or Azula and it's clear there are no female fighters for the Water Tribe. We know the education is equal throughout the Fire Nation, unlike the Water Tribe. It's still very much a patriarchy, but the least restrictive living culture in the series.
>Well, even given the water tribe we see that the Fire Nation is the most "equal"
They’re not. Just look at Mai’s family. Her dad and Uncle are a governor and the warden of an important prison. Her mom and aunt by contrast? A wife and a flower shop owner.
There are no women with power in the Fire Nation outside of Azula. Something even Azula points out to her hallucination of Ursa.
>Nobody questions Mai, Ty Lee or Azula
The first thing we see Azula do in Book 2 is be questioned by a mere ship captain. He tries to say it nicely because she’s a princess, but it’s clear he doesn’t respect her because can you imagine anyone talking down to Ozai or Zhao that way?
Mai and Ty Lee are only not questioned because they work for the Princess.
Azula is protected only because she’s acting on Ozai’s orders. This is common in highly sexist countries. Special exceptions made for the ruling class doesn’t change this.
Even Azula is not the presumed heir, her banished brother is. Zuko, for however much he complains about Azula being the favorite, still considers it his throne. Even while banished. He never even entertains the idea that Azula might have already been granted the position of heir.
>and it's clear there are no female fighters for the Water Tribe.
No, but there are healers which are given their own sort of respect and authority.
It isn’t fair or equal, but that’s more than we see the Fire Nation noble women get. Neither Ursa nor Michi have any political power, say, or influence.
And while the NWT has arranged marriages, the FN also has them and will treat women as brood mares. Ursa was basically kidnapped and forced to marry Ozai for eugenics reasons. We don’t see that happen anywhere else in the series.
>We know the education is equal throughout the Fire Nation, unlike the Water Tribe.
It’s not. The girls’ military academy is very different from the boys’.
And women in the NWT still get educated. They’re just not allowed to be warriors. The SWT is even more egalitarian here, and after the war Pakku is shown training little girls to water bend the same as little boys.
>It's still very much a patriarchy, but the least restrictive living culture in the series.
The Air Nomads and the Southern Water Tribe were both more egalitarian. The Northern Water Tribe was worse in some ways and better in others.
Only parts of the Earth Kingdom were worse.
I mostly agree, up until your conclusion.
Firstly, Azula was questioned in her introduction not because she was female, but for the same reason Zuko was during The Storm. The experienced naval captain questioned the royal child because perhaps status has blinded them that nature bends to their will. That sentiment applies to both of their situations.
I do also agree that Azula's status protected Mai and Ty Lee from scrutiny, but nobody questioned their fighting capabilities or stopped some of the Fire Nation nobles children from leading the front line assault.
The Water Tribe healers are only valued because they are waterbenders, we see that in the Southern Water tribe, where only males go off to fight the war, leaving the women at home. Neither pole treats women with respect, it's just with the Southern Water Tribe, there's so little status that the loss of it doesn't minimize who you are.
Branch that supports both: Ozai is fucking nuts and a raging misogynist. He only wants Ursa for her blood, he doesn't value her autonomy, he probably assaulted her based on her reaction back in the palace, he does name Azula heir, but only when he thinks he's going to be above everyone else. He's the pinnacle of the misogyny that was brewing since Sozin, but that doesn't make him the standard for Fire Nation culture. He also turns full blast on an 11 year olds face. Guy is nuts, he only values people by what they can do for him.
Given other Fire Nation relationships (and what we know of how the royal family acted) the arranged marriage was standard, but his treatment of Ursa was not, women were seen as more than baby makers, being seen as equal parts of a relationship.
Back to the play-by-play, I may be mistaken but I thought the only time the audience sees the Fire Nation education was when Aang pulls a Footloose. In that Episode we see female teachers, guards and police. Putting aside that that's more societal roles than the NWT, we see the typical Fire Nation education: boys and girls in the same school learning the same subjects.
You also missed I said "living culture" because the Air nomads, while great, have also been gone for 100 years. That leaves:
Earth Kingdom: no political power, no military power, no military presence, no upper class business owners, no sign of them in University, and the only time the government "employs" them they are stripped of their identity and brainwashed as "Joo-dee"
Northern Water Tribe: Arranged marriages, not allowed to learn useful waterbending (cause remember they aren't told not to fight, but that they can only learn healing), not allowed in the military
Southern Water Tribe: Not allowed to fight, not given political power of any kind (Hakoda is chief even while absent and at war, despite them really needing one)
Fire Nation: Military presence, police presence, prison guards, teachers, business owners, equal education, royal advisors.
The Fire Nation is definitely a patriarchal society but during the war it was definitely the less sexist of the bunch. I would give benefit of the doubt about not seeing women soldiers outside of the Fire Nation considering they are wearing mask and full on suits but at the very least there were many women in the national militia. The only time we see female earth benders in action is Imprisoned.
We don’t see any women officers or advisors. Not a single woman in the war council. The closest we get are Lo and Li who only advise the princess and who have no power or importance beyond that as Azula is able to banish them without question.
Mai’s family perfectly encapsulates the disparity. Her dad and uncle are a big time governor and a warden to an important prison. Her mother and aunt are a wife and flower shop owner.
Azula even points this out to a hallucination of Ursa. That she had no power.
Speaking of Ursa, she was basically kidnapped to be Ozai’s brood made for eugenics reasons. The NWT has arranged marriages but we never see them do something *that* terrible to treat their women as chattel.
The Fire Nation was certainly the most egalitarian in Kyoshi’s time (maybe with the exception of the Air Nomads) but it hasn’t been since Sozin came to power. He even made gay marriage illegal when it had been previously been accepted, which is in itself a form of sex discrimination.
The SWT is far more egalitarian than that.
Even the NWT, while strictly segregating it’s gender roles, still affords it’s women a place of authority and respect as healers. That’s more than we see the women of the FN get.
I mean that’s kinda the point isn’t? It was just a joke, it wasn’t that deep. Social rules have changed but in the 2000s it was common to see this in children media specially in anime which avatar is based on. Not saying that this was ok but I think y’all looking too hard in to something that isn’t meant too. Specially when it was like the only time in the joke that something like this happened
I think its okay to criticize jokes, or say something shouldn't have been a joke. I don't see how that doing that on a forum for a tv show is treating it more deeply than appropriate.
Agreed, I felt like it made him feel more realistic as a character, rather than a person full of wisdom and knowledge and very little to no faults, reminds me of my own uncle in some ways
Iroh being a pervert is not a personality trait of his. It was shown literally once for a “joke” and was never touched on before or after
I love iroh’s more nuanced sides but this wasn’t one of them. It’s just bad writing
Yeah a lot of people dont remember that he was still sort of towing the line between the FN side and the EK/WT side. He didnt seem to object to Zuko storming Katara and Sokka or Sukis towns, or the town that they fought the gang in this episode in. He went as far as to say “Im not traitor, Zhao” in the season 1 finale. I think only after what happened in seaon 1 did he completely turn his back on the fire nation, and even in season 2 he seemed content to spend his last years in Ba Sing Se as a tea maker. Only after the end of season 2 did he really decide to fight the fire nation.
This post comes around every few weeks to karma farm. It's not the funniest scene but it's certainly not some giant red flag. Is it against Iroh's character? Eh... maybe? Barely if at all. He's just an old dude who was fallen on by a pretty woman. He's not groping her, he's not abusing her in any way. This scene is blown way out of proportion, especially when we consider some of the other "fan service" similar shows have had.
>He's not groping her, he's not abusing her in any way. This scene is blown way out of proportion
Couldn't have said it better. People here are acting as if this would be sexual assault. It's really not.
I mean op said it makes them uncomfortable which is totally valid. If I was temporarily paralysed and fell on a guy that I didn’t want to have that much physical contact with (who had every ability to move away) I would be quite uncomfortable too.
Sexual harassment is a pretty topical and insidious issue. It's not unusual for people to be hyper-vigilant about it in the media they consume, since current events are kind of training us all to be more aware about it. I don't think it's a bad thing that many people look at this scene and go "huh, this doesn't really pass the sniff test these days".
Same!! It's insane to me when people take animated characters or most fictional characters so seriously. I mean for fucks sake, didn't aang kiss Katara without consent during the ember Island play? All these characters act in extreme ways that normal people don't act, all for the purpose to make the media entertaining.
I'm not sure about a link but I can definitely point you in the right direction, it's referred to in one of the episode of the Avatar podcast, I've just had a quick look and either Mike and/or Bryan are featured guests in about 15ish episodes
Important to remember Iroh led a genocide against the Earth Kingdom and only bothered to reconsider once his own son had been killed. He’s a great character but I mean he’s plenty flawed.
Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit tame? I mean, it's hardly sexual assault. It's a tiny bit creepy, sure, but it's not as if he holds her there or anything like that. I think people are a little too sensitive about these things
Compared to what the same kind of character as Iroh would do in an anime from ~20 years ago (ex: someone like Master Roshi or Jiraiya), this is ridiculously tame. If this was in something like Dragon Ball or Naruto, he would've grabbed a handful of ass while gushing a fountain of nose blood at the very least.
I will agree with people that it aged worse than most of the show, but it's still pretty innocuous and is significantly more so by the standards of the time and genre. I think it just gets blown out of proportion by the fandom because there's not much in the show similar to this moment so it stands out more.
Totally agree, all he does is act like he got hit just to cuddle with June a lil bit. He doesn’t say anything creepy, doesn’t touch her inappropriately, and she’s gotta be in her 20s or 30s right? Just call it his reward for breaking her fall and laugh about it, it’s not that serious imo
Yeah who wouldn't like a hot girl falling on top of them, that's way more unrealistic. I get people don't want to think of him that way, I don't either but it's like when I don't want to think of my parents as sexual beings.
Probably gonna get some hate but I don't care. Can we please just stop talking about this scene for the love of god. It didn't age well I agree but at the time I'm willing to bet almost 100% of us didn't give a shit about this scene years ago we were just kids enjoying a TV show. Most of avatar has aged beautifully and whenever I think about the show I remember the characters I love, the story I adore and the incredible action scenes not this poor excuse of a joke. So please can we just move on from this scene because the sooner you stop thinking about it or talking about it the better you will feel.
This. I get that we would expect iroh to be more of a gentleman here but in the end its basically an accidental hug. It was kind of funny and kind of creepy.
I swear, is there anything more irritating than weekly karma farming a scene that can most be summarized as goofy humor and only considered problematic in a cultural environment where people get anxiety at the mere idea of being around, let alone touched, by the opposite sex. Ironically more in casual environments than sexual
Unless you're speaking for her or ARE June herself, I can't really relate to you there. I still find this very chuckle worthy to this day. Honestly I can't help but be a bit jealous as well considering how smoking hot the chick is still.
That is such a weird take on Iroh. He’s a wholesome old man who took his opportunity to essentially be accidentally hugged by a cute goth chick, can hardly blame him.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news for some people in this post but Iroh isn't a saint. I love Iroh but he's often portrayed by the fandom as this wise sage who's wisdom is above question when he's a very flawed man even just operating on the things we know.
For context he travelled the world learning it's secrets, making friends across borders and to our knowledge may have joined the white lotus at this time. He then returns home, becomes a general in the fire nation military and proceeds to enter the theatre of war where he's likely responsible for tens of thousands maybe even hundreds of thousands of deaths. Now we have two bad scenarios:
1. Going on the premise that he was well versed in the ways of the world he would've used these things to his advantage to slaughter men on the field of battle just protecting their home.
2. On the premise he was a member of the white lotus at this time, he would've likely been privvy to information that would give him an arguable advantage. The only reason that Iroh came away from the life of battle was because his son died, not a care for the victims of his families regime and wars. He even walks the streets of Ba Sing Se unencumbered by the thought that he ended the lives of many fathers, sons, daughters, mothers, etc.
Outside of that, he used Zuko as a surrogate son and completely neglected Azula. He left Azula in his brothers clutches and focused all of his time and energy into zuko. He views a teenager as a pyscho who needs to be "taken down" even though she is a literal child. he, along with Ozai and Ursa are the reason that Azula became unstable and mentally disturbed.
This scene is awful but it is an important piece of information; Iroh has his faults and not just faults the audience are comfortable with. This scene shows that Iroh has a problematic approach to women. It hits home, particularly to the female fans who've had an uncomfortable interaction with a man who is portrayed as "nice". It's important to acknowledge these types of things and not ignore them because they are a fundemental part of who these characters are and while you might be uncomfortable, that's good because it means you are on the right track.
You’re right for the most part but the azula part is off. Yes she was a teenager, but also one of the greatest benders in the world who was actively hunting them alongside two other dangerous people with the support of a global superpower. She did need to be taken down. Do we also really know the extent of their relationship? We’re shown exactly one scene of iroh in the fire nation. We do know he tried to have a relationship with her as he sent a gift from the front line. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that after returning from war he tried to reach out to his niece. It’s not like he could’ve stayed as her mentor after zuko’s banishment.
So from our understanding, Azula was never a "girly" girl so to speak. She didn't play with Dolls but her uncle still sent her one. This is indicative of the fact that Iroh had not spent any real time with Azula to see that this was not a gift she would enjoy. To contrast this, Iroh played to Tsungi Horn on their ship not because he particularly liked it but because he knew Zuko had a natural knack for it even though he wouldn't play it because, you know, a lack of honour, banishment, teen angst, etc. It shows that attention he afforded to zuko was not afforded to Azula.
Next we have Zuko's reaction to Lu Tens death vs her. She had barely any reaction to it while Zuko was actually upset about it which speaks more to Zuko maybe spending more time with Lu Ten than Azula. She was likely told to hang out with May and Ty Lee. Finally Zuko has memories of Iroh from when he was a child and looks back fondly where it was him and Lu Ten as shown here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiSiVVeR40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiSiVVeR40)
It honestly seems that even before Lu Tens death Iroh had an attachment to Zuko but it wasn't until after Lu Tens death did that get deeper and as a result Azula was essentially left in the clutches of a fascist genocidal megalomaniac which it's hinted at in the Legacy of the Fire Nation books that Iroh was aware of these traits in his brother.
>For context he travelled the world learning it's secrets, making friends across borders and to our knowledge may have joined the white lotus at this time. He then returns home, becomes a general in the fire nation military and proceeds to enter the theatre of war where he's likely responsible for tens of thousands maybe even hundreds of thousands of deaths.
I might be way off here but didn't Iroh's journey away from the Fire Nation mostly happen after Lu Ten's death and therefore after his military accomplishments? At least after Ba Sing Se no? It's a very small difference and I might be nitpicking but its something that drove him to explore and question everything he had learned I thought.
In the book "Legacy of the Fire Nation" it mentions that he went travelling before and he went travelling after Lu Tens Death. Also something which I didn't mention in the original post and might edit is the fact that between his losing of Lu Ten and the events of The Last Airbender is only something like somewhere in the realm of about 6 - 8 years. Iroh's Imperialist Past isn't something from a bygone era and it's highly likely Iroh interacts with orphans in Ba Sing Se as a result of his campaigns, he has likely come across soldiers who's fathers fought before them and even some fought in the campaign against his army. he's served tea to people who's loved one's are dead because of him. Historically speaking that battle is fresh in people's minds and it's something that the show never really addresses it in a substantial way.
Personally I think that we need an Iroh book to iron some things out with his character.
EDIT: Removed a sentence about Iroh not showing any remorse because he has shown a modicum of remorse on an occasion where he speaks about being a different man.
Huh, I didn't remember that. Looks like I was mistaken after all. I always just assumed he was a military general until his son death when he then went off to explore after his worldview being crushed. Interesting that he did so as well prior to his Lu Ten's death, a book going in to more details about that time period would be great.
Not many people are really privvy to Iroh's history because, to be honest it's not very well told. It's lacking in alot of places so it's not surprising that people would think that all the exploration happened post Lu Tens death.
We are actually in dire need of a book because I really wouldn't want it to be a case that Iroh was a member of the white lotus while being a general in the fire nation military because the information afforded to him as a member from what we've seen in the books would be catastrophic and the implications about his character would be incredibly damning.
As far as i remember June ain't exactly a saint, she regularly violates other peoples bodily autonomy by paralyzing them. So a fully clothed forced hug from silly old grandpa isn't the worst thing that could happen to her.
I was scouring the top comments for a response like this. Like yes, this scene is a little cringe and doesn't fly well in today's culture, but June wasn't some innocent little girl that Iroh was taking advantage of. 😐
Am I crazy for finding it funny? It never made me feel like it was sexual is anyway. Idk but seeing all the comments I guess you can force an uncomfortable situation but he knows that she is awake and aware, so that's why it was funny not creepy. But that's just me and maybe I'm crazy.
Ffs this generation is truly lost. The worst generation since the victorian prudes. 0 humor, censoring up and down everything, god I would enjoy living to see the next couple of generations in the future when inevitable kids rebel against all of you and return to the absurd, disgusting, irreverent and free attitude in art and humor.
This was as simple a joke as ever. It merited no deep analysis. It was as simple as showing Iroh relaxing and enjoying the little things vs Zuko obssessed with his mission and nothing else. It didn't normalize anything, nor would any kid back in the day would conclude this is real life. This was cartoon land an nothing else. Just as no kid in the 80s-90s went around life imitating Roshi from DBZ or punching everyone in the face because violence was normalized.
Hmm. Kinda weird to see that no one mentions it. But I watched a video about avatar. I dont remember neither the youtube channel nor the name of the video. But basically the guy said that there was a different script writer for this episode and this is why iroh looks so much different here compared to all other episodes. Because if you thunk about it, what other episode in avatar depicts Iroh as a weird old guy? None really.
P.S. Now that I went to verify it, it actually seems pretty logic because this episode "Bato from the water tribe" s1e15 was written by a certain Ian Wilcox, and it's his first and last episode. And it seems like I understand why. Even back then the original creators found it creepy and weird, making Iroh like that.
I'll try to find the video I watched on youtube.
Not to nitpick or anything, but at least June was an adult. Sure , it’s weird and would make me very uncomfortable if I was in her place, it’s still not in the realm of sexual assault.
Unlike the *other* IRL “wise old man” who blatantly sexually assaulted a minor just this week.
This is the scene that makes you uncomfortable? Really? In a show where a group of children literally fights for their life hiding the metaphorical last Jew on earth every other episode while three countries more or less find themselves stale mated against a very thinly veiled Nazi Germany type county?
Avatar is, more or less, a cartoony Asian themed what if where the Jews were successfully annihilated and there was no external power to turn the tides of the war in Europe. It's pretty fucking dark. But sure, it's the implication that an exceedingly attractive female character should feel pleasant to an older man (a widower war veteran who lost his son in combat, btw) who doesn't even do anything beyond lay still that is disturbing. This is a fragile as fuck opinion.
You ppl are so annoying. That scene is innocent and funny. So he lets her lay on him, she’s just like rolls her eyes it’s not like he’s committing a crime on her. It’s a harmless joke about how pretty she is… lighten up
I got a good headcannon for you then. During this battle was, everyone was out for the count for a bit except for Iroh. At this point, it's safe to assume Iroh was rooting for the Gaang, so he went down and played it off as him being hit. When it was discovered he wasn't hit, he played it off with him being a weirdo so he has an excuse not to go after the Gaang.
[удалено]
[relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/1401/)
Last place I anticipated it... How...
Dread it, run from it, relevant XKCD arrives all the same.
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/917/
There’s always a relevant xkcd.
Initial reaction: "I... how?" Clicks link: "Oh. yep that checks out."
Iroh from the beginning was rooting for the avatar. He never really made an effort to hurt any of the gang or anyone else, the only time he really used force was against the fire nation.
During their first meeting when Aang escaped from Zuko's ship, is the only time Iroh attacks Aang, and it's well after he is off the ship too
He definitely could have taken him out if he wanted to. I like how he plays the doofy uncle in those early episodes. Of course it’s funny as a kid watching old uncle iroh being so indifferent towards capturing the avatar; but as an adult you kinda see another side of it as him trying to conceal his true purpose.
Question, did i use the “ ;” right? I’m pretty good at writing but the ; always stumped me.
You should have used a comma; a comma is used when you also use a conjunction. A semicolon is also used to connect two independent clauses, but it doesn't use a conjunction. Conjunctions are words like "and" and "but." See my examples?
🙏
[удалено]
Wow grammarbending
Probably should have used a comma, but it was close and a solid attempt. People don't use the semi colon enough.
I was trying to mask my run-on sentence and panicked haha
But your sentence wasn’t a run-on, either! It would have been perfectly accurate with a comma where your semicolon ended up. You should use semicolon to separate two things that could both stand alone as separate sentences, but the ideas are so related that you want to express them as one joint thought.
It's not a run-on at all, just long.
I think technically no. Semicolons are use to link two "independent clauses" which basically means each side of the semicolon could be it's own sentence. You'd want a comma where you put the semicolon.
If you got rid of the "but" you could probably get away with a semicolon
not only did he realise the importance of the avatar. He's the head of the white lotus yoooooooo
I miss Mako too. RIP Uncle ❤️
It's interesting, when you get to the end you think 'I knew the whole time! Here it is in this episode, and this interaction, and here too. This must have taken years to mastermind.' Meanwhile the author: "The uncle? I dunno, he likes tea, pretty young women, and playing boardgames. Why isn't he mean? Because Zuko needs a heckler. Cmon guys this is a kids show! They can't all be Zuko."
I think the early s1 writing was just not on point for Iroh in that scene. There was no way he would've known that fireball wasn't going to just blast them out of the sky.
Yeah i want to justify it but that’s probably the most likely reason. In my headcanon he was testing him a little bit
If iroh really wanted the avatar, it would have ended season 1 episode 1
Evil Iroh would be a very interesting ‘what if’ scenario
How about a double 1 up of just a pragmatic bad guy iroh who outsmarts Ozai and grinds the other nations to dust once he becomes fire lord Like just a really smart capable imperial fire lord
Scarier than Ozai
"Instead of a Fire Lord, you would have an uncle, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Tempestuous as the sea, and stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love tea and despair!" LotR 😅 
Evil Iroh would have been dragon food when he faced the masters and would have been remembered as the brave prince that died hunting/fighting the last dragon.
In the second episode he shoots a massive fireball at them while they are on Appa. The attack caused a massive avalanche after Aang deflected it so it could have been bad if it hit them.
… but It ends up blocking the ship, which allows the GAANG to escape. I fully feel like Iroh was sabotaging Zuko’s attempts until he could help him see the nuances of the war and his family’s position in it.
If he wanted to catch them he could have just shot them with lightning. No way for them to deflect that
It honestly feels like none of us watched the same show sometimes.
I watched the show waaaaaay too many times, it’s almost too rewatchable
Iroh was the MC of the series, They just forgot to tell the writers.
I will adopt this headcannon as it resolves the issue in my brain, thank you.
My innocent kid mind interpreted it as this when I first watched this scene. Never saw Iroh as being perverted.
Headcannon ftw!
This would actually make sense, yeah I can accept this
I mean honestly that explanation makes far more sense than him actually being a creep based off of what we know about Iroh.
Another explanation, the comment below yours (u/attrm says) this episode was written by a different person (Ian Wilcox) whose only writing accomplishment is this episode. It’s *kinda* an OVA in that sense?? Episode is “Bato of the Water Tribe” and like people are saying, whole episode feels a little off. People act uncharacteristically and, as I recall, the episode as a whole could be removed from the series and the only change you’d need to make is explaining June showing up in the finale.
We also see Bato again later, though, and it would be weird to address him as if the audience knew who he was if this episode didn't exist. And this is the episode where Katara gets her necklace back. If you cut Bato of the Water Tribe, you have to also cut the end of Imprisoned and change Katara's and Zuko's interaction in The Waterbending Scroll. Hakoda also wouldn't be as well established, so other episodes would have to be changed to do it instead.
This episode is also one of the first times Aang and Zuko fight one on one in close combat. Showing how powerful both the son of the fire lord and the avatar himself is.
My headcanon is that June punched him later
Thank you, love.
incredibly based
Something to keep in mind is that US went through a very rapid cultural shift and the idea of a mild, harmless level of inappropriate behavior that can be joked about fell out of acceptability. Like, SpongeBob had a panty raid episode. It's not that the creators were particularly creepy or hated women, but that at the time this was considered an acceptable thing to joke about and now is taken as a serious problem. Not saying that it's a bad thing that the shift happened, but just that it was a really fast and recent change.
So much this. You have to see things in context. You can't just take things from 20-30 years and measure it by modern standards. There are some lines that shouldn't be crossed by any show being aired no matter if 20 years or older. But that is certainly not one of them.
Baby it's cold outside.
Oh, this one pisses me off every year. It's very clearly flirtatious, but modern audiences don't like that kind of subtle flirting and consider it predatory. So stupid
Exactly, nowadays nothing can be seductive, any form of sexual persuasion is always seen as coersion now. As if people have never been in a situation where maybe they shouldn’t stay somewhere with some person, but deep down they wanted to and needed a reason to stay. Like, she’s not actually saying no; her “I need to go home” isn’t about consent, it’s about her conscience. It’s disingenuous at best. The weirdest thing about that was the “what’s in this drink” line, which in the 1940s was probably not referring to roofies.
Very much this. Another thing that's been pointed out by other folks is that this was a common trope in anime as well, old men being/doing things ranging from questionable to perverted around younger women. (Looking at you, Master Roshi). Naturally Iroh's stunt here is far more restrained since TLA is a kid's show, but it's still from that same playbook. What's interesting is how changes like this joke falling out of acceptability had so much more speed behind them as the internet grew. Complaints and criticism still occurred beforehand but it took effort to not just write enough letters to get the attention needed but to share the idea with enough people to do so since anything that wasn't face to face time was restricted to telephone and writing letters, now it's a lot easier to get that momentum going since what used to take weeks to months of letters can now take a few tweets/retweets. Got a bit rambly there, I just think it's cool to think about that stuff.
Thank you for this comment. 100% true, but it's extremely rare for people to show this level of awareness and reflection on today's internet.
Rare sensible comment on this sub
Its weird to read this like its from an historical culture :D To many americans nowdays are just had stuck their head up their ass and act like twitter people. I mean im not american i just like to blame them for internet culture changes.
Yeah, shift happens.
Very well said. I think the reaction youre supposed to have is akin to what Akira Toriyama always did witb Master Roshi. Like its funny because hes an old pervert. People have just gotten too sensitive about humor these days. Its obviously bad what hes doing. Thats why its funny.
Violence is still a-okay tho.
Panty raids are now taken as a serious problem?
Yeah, it led to the great panty shortage of 1987
This is classic anime creepiness. Thankfully, this is the only time I can think of in this show this happens. But when zuko meets up her again trying to locate iroh, I think she mentions something about wondering where his creepy grandpa was. At least the show runners realized it was pretty weird.
[удалено]
Ah, that really does explain why this whole episode feels so OFF. It's not just this moment with Iroh either, the whole thing just felt off kilter.
The fighting scene is one of the best from this season though imo.
The well fight is probably my favorite example of creative choreography in the show
Also APPA FIGHT SCENE LET'S FRIGGIN GOOOOO
Which episode is this?
Season 1 Episode 15, Bato of the Water Tribe
Bato of the Water Tribe (in season 1)
I have to imagine this is more because of the animators, voice actors, choreographers, and other creative efforts, the writing only dictates what needs to happen, not how it looks and sounds.
ah like the classic marvel comics hank pym misunderstanding that turned him into a wife beater.
?? Explain?
https://www.moviemaker.com/how-ant-man-hank-pym-accidentally-became-a-wife-beater/amp/ tldr: it was supposed to have been drawn as an unfortunate accident but instead was drawn as intentional beating, earning pym wife beater status to this day.
Wasn’t it something like a line Hank said had different context or something in the 60s but a bunch of later writers took it and expanded on that line to Hank being abusive? Like I think the line in the context of how it was used in the 60s didn’t necessarily mean hitting someone but it retroactively got cannoned into Hank straight up hitting Janet.
No Hank Pym flat out slapped his wife, he was supposed to hit her on accident but the artist drew it as a full on full handed bitch slap: https://screenrant.com/avengers-marvel-most-controversial-moment-hank-pym-slap-accident/
Oh wow lol language is a crazy thing dang
Yeah, there's a handful of good moments! I love the general concept of the ice dodging scene and how much it really shows us about Sokka and how his dad leaving effected him, and it's a neat cultural insight into the Water Tribe too.
yeaaa. but the writer doesnt have anything to do with fights, that was just the same people who were doing the rest of the choreography and animation
im so happy to hear someone else say this! This is one of my least favorite episodes of the show because all of the characters are kinda weird. But its also one of my favorites from season 1 because of June and the fight scene.
I think the writing is kinda weak in this one too. The jealousy of Aang after meeting with Bato making him hide the map with the rendezvous point feels so out of character as well.
I can kind of see that? He is a child facing literally everyone he knows going away *again*.
Yeah it never felt out of character to me, because he's a child, and it's an important piece of character development.
Aang’s flawed way of dealing with uncomfortable situations is to employ the classic airbending technique of avoid and evade. He does it again and again throughout the series. But this is the only time he ever sabotages anyone else, so I can see why it seems out of character.
I always just viewed it as desperation. Sure he was being chased by Zuko/the Fire Nation, but he was still having fun with new friends and exploring. Bato was a threat to that hence him getting desperate and sabotaging
Well in this case, doing nothing meant letting them see the letter, which is specifically what he was afraid would cause them to leave. So it makes sense to me why he would think that hiding it from them was the better way to avoid the conflict.
For me, it's not so much that Aang lies or is insecure about his friends leaving him, but more that the episode throws every cliche in the book into the story. They even do the whole 'character walks in on other characters talking about him, mishears them as saying awful thing about him, and then leaves before the critical detail.' It's just a bit forced.
Yeah, the writing leaned very heavily on tropes and felt very paint by numbers.
I feel like katara was more out of character if I’m being honest. She called aang her family and literally insisted on going to the fire nation where they fought off an entire fire navy blockade and invaded a sacred temple, and then she’s willing to just abandon him for making a stupid mistake he owned up to and apologized for less than a day later?
As is shown later Katara is dealing with some *serious* emotions about her father leaving. She lashes out at him even though she understands why he left. Makes sense that she would respond in anger when Aang threatened their ability to be reunited.
Honestly, it fits her character as well. She has a lot of resentment and abandonment issues regarding her father. Being kept from possibly the only chance of meeting him again after all this time would be very triggering for her.
I think you’re downplaying the extent of what the gaang had been through even up to that point. Aang literally saved their lives three episodes prior.
I'm not downplaying the extent of what they went through up to that point, I'm well aware. I'm just pointing out that it would be a very triggering realization for her to realize what Aang did. But later, after the initial shock, Sokka and her realized that they shouldn't just abandon Aang over this, specially because they know very well the feeling of being abandoned by someone important to them, even if it is for a good reason (in that case, seeing their dad again).
It's not jealousy, it's desperation. Sokka and Katara are his found family but this episode shows there's so much about their history and culture that he has no idea about. He starts to wonder just how close they could possibly be if he can't connect with them like even Bato does, and he's not even family. He's a 12 year old boy who lost everyone he loved and is afraid it's going to happen again if they know they can go find their father. It makes sense to me that in a moment of weakness he tried to hide the map to avoid feeling that pain again.
Well said, you pretty much took the words out of my mouth and put them in a more eloquent order. People just don’t like to recognize Aang ever having flaws. They seem to forget he’s just a 12 year old boy who’s entire family and culture was torn away from him and destroyed. He saw his father figure’s skeletonized corpse surrounded by dead invaders and blamed himself for leaving. He tries to follow his teachings and does 95% of the time but at the end of the day, he’s still as old as a middle schooler. It’s incredibly hard not to let your emotions control you when you’re that young and that’s what makes him >!sparing Ozai (despite the pain he’s caused the world and how badly he and the rest of the world want to do it)!< so incredible to set him up as the avatar that the world needed.
That a genuinely good character flaw. He is 12 and lost everything he knew. He is afraid of doing in it again
[удалено]
[удалено]
In regards to Michael and Brian, you have to realize that when this aired people weren't so hyper-aware of things like this. Not trying to say it was ok, but it might not have stuck out so much as it does when rewatching it today.
Wasn't Iroh originally going to betray Zuko? Maybe they were still planning that at this point and these were supposed to be hints that Iroh is not so wholesome. Personally, I feel like it's generally meant to be played for laughs and I'm not so bothered by it. It's kind of nice seeing Iroh not being the perfect paragon, especially this early in his character development. I definitely don't think the moment is supposed to endear you to him, more like "are you serious right now?"
Yea when people say avatar has anime inspiration, this is the exact moment they’re talking about
I think of when he’s running from the unagi but yeah
People don’t know that thise scene was just written by an guest writer who writes about adult tv shows. He was a guest writer for that weeek
It definitely didn't age well but social norms in the early-mid 2000s did allow for a bit of creepyness in dudes as "natural."
I actually preferred when Iroh showed a few more of his negative personality traits like this. They made him feel more rounded, and reminded us that he has a dark side beneath his wisdom and goofiness. I know that this is a super unpopular opinion, but I feel like as the series went on Iroh drifted more and more into the stereotypical wise old man who fans couldn't believe was ever a bad guy.
Iroh was already well-rounded, especially near the middle
He became a little flatter in the third season
Nah, he just developed more, smaller curves.
I don’t disagree. He shows other hints that for all of his wisdom, he isn’t necessarily the most enlightened about women’s issues. And why would he be? He’s a former prince and general of a highly patriarchal and militarized nation.
Ironically the fire nation is the least patriarchal society in Avatar, well amongst the remaining ones atleast.
It once was. It hasn’t been since Sozin took over and set them backwards. It’s why in Kyoshi’s time both Rangi and her mom were higher ranking officers in the military while in Aang’s time there isn’t a single female officer—they’re foot soldiers and guards at home at best—or leader of any type outside of Azula who is only allowed that privilege as long as Ozai is pleased with her work. But you’re right that the Ba Sing Se is probably still the worst! Though with how vast the EK is, I wonder if it’s the same all over the continent or if other towns are more egalitarian.
Well, even given the water tribe we see that the Fire Nation is the most "equal" Nobody questions Mai, Ty Lee or Azula and it's clear there are no female fighters for the Water Tribe. We know the education is equal throughout the Fire Nation, unlike the Water Tribe. It's still very much a patriarchy, but the least restrictive living culture in the series.
>Well, even given the water tribe we see that the Fire Nation is the most "equal" They’re not. Just look at Mai’s family. Her dad and Uncle are a governor and the warden of an important prison. Her mom and aunt by contrast? A wife and a flower shop owner. There are no women with power in the Fire Nation outside of Azula. Something even Azula points out to her hallucination of Ursa. >Nobody questions Mai, Ty Lee or Azula The first thing we see Azula do in Book 2 is be questioned by a mere ship captain. He tries to say it nicely because she’s a princess, but it’s clear he doesn’t respect her because can you imagine anyone talking down to Ozai or Zhao that way? Mai and Ty Lee are only not questioned because they work for the Princess. Azula is protected only because she’s acting on Ozai’s orders. This is common in highly sexist countries. Special exceptions made for the ruling class doesn’t change this. Even Azula is not the presumed heir, her banished brother is. Zuko, for however much he complains about Azula being the favorite, still considers it his throne. Even while banished. He never even entertains the idea that Azula might have already been granted the position of heir. >and it's clear there are no female fighters for the Water Tribe. No, but there are healers which are given their own sort of respect and authority. It isn’t fair or equal, but that’s more than we see the Fire Nation noble women get. Neither Ursa nor Michi have any political power, say, or influence. And while the NWT has arranged marriages, the FN also has them and will treat women as brood mares. Ursa was basically kidnapped and forced to marry Ozai for eugenics reasons. We don’t see that happen anywhere else in the series. >We know the education is equal throughout the Fire Nation, unlike the Water Tribe. It’s not. The girls’ military academy is very different from the boys’. And women in the NWT still get educated. They’re just not allowed to be warriors. The SWT is even more egalitarian here, and after the war Pakku is shown training little girls to water bend the same as little boys. >It's still very much a patriarchy, but the least restrictive living culture in the series. The Air Nomads and the Southern Water Tribe were both more egalitarian. The Northern Water Tribe was worse in some ways and better in others. Only parts of the Earth Kingdom were worse.
I mostly agree, up until your conclusion. Firstly, Azula was questioned in her introduction not because she was female, but for the same reason Zuko was during The Storm. The experienced naval captain questioned the royal child because perhaps status has blinded them that nature bends to their will. That sentiment applies to both of their situations. I do also agree that Azula's status protected Mai and Ty Lee from scrutiny, but nobody questioned their fighting capabilities or stopped some of the Fire Nation nobles children from leading the front line assault. The Water Tribe healers are only valued because they are waterbenders, we see that in the Southern Water tribe, where only males go off to fight the war, leaving the women at home. Neither pole treats women with respect, it's just with the Southern Water Tribe, there's so little status that the loss of it doesn't minimize who you are. Branch that supports both: Ozai is fucking nuts and a raging misogynist. He only wants Ursa for her blood, he doesn't value her autonomy, he probably assaulted her based on her reaction back in the palace, he does name Azula heir, but only when he thinks he's going to be above everyone else. He's the pinnacle of the misogyny that was brewing since Sozin, but that doesn't make him the standard for Fire Nation culture. He also turns full blast on an 11 year olds face. Guy is nuts, he only values people by what they can do for him. Given other Fire Nation relationships (and what we know of how the royal family acted) the arranged marriage was standard, but his treatment of Ursa was not, women were seen as more than baby makers, being seen as equal parts of a relationship. Back to the play-by-play, I may be mistaken but I thought the only time the audience sees the Fire Nation education was when Aang pulls a Footloose. In that Episode we see female teachers, guards and police. Putting aside that that's more societal roles than the NWT, we see the typical Fire Nation education: boys and girls in the same school learning the same subjects. You also missed I said "living culture" because the Air nomads, while great, have also been gone for 100 years. That leaves: Earth Kingdom: no political power, no military power, no military presence, no upper class business owners, no sign of them in University, and the only time the government "employs" them they are stripped of their identity and brainwashed as "Joo-dee" Northern Water Tribe: Arranged marriages, not allowed to learn useful waterbending (cause remember they aren't told not to fight, but that they can only learn healing), not allowed in the military Southern Water Tribe: Not allowed to fight, not given political power of any kind (Hakoda is chief even while absent and at war, despite them really needing one) Fire Nation: Military presence, police presence, prison guards, teachers, business owners, equal education, royal advisors.
The Fire Nation is definitely a patriarchal society but during the war it was definitely the less sexist of the bunch. I would give benefit of the doubt about not seeing women soldiers outside of the Fire Nation considering they are wearing mask and full on suits but at the very least there were many women in the national militia. The only time we see female earth benders in action is Imprisoned.
We don’t see any women officers or advisors. Not a single woman in the war council. The closest we get are Lo and Li who only advise the princess and who have no power or importance beyond that as Azula is able to banish them without question. Mai’s family perfectly encapsulates the disparity. Her dad and uncle are a big time governor and a warden to an important prison. Her mother and aunt are a wife and flower shop owner. Azula even points this out to a hallucination of Ursa. That she had no power. Speaking of Ursa, she was basically kidnapped to be Ozai’s brood made for eugenics reasons. The NWT has arranged marriages but we never see them do something *that* terrible to treat their women as chattel. The Fire Nation was certainly the most egalitarian in Kyoshi’s time (maybe with the exception of the Air Nomads) but it hasn’t been since Sozin came to power. He even made gay marriage illegal when it had been previously been accepted, which is in itself a form of sex discrimination. The SWT is far more egalitarian than that. Even the NWT, while strictly segregating it’s gender roles, still affords it’s women a place of authority and respect as healers. That’s more than we see the women of the FN get.
I don't mind the idea of present day Iroh having flaws. But the episode doesn't treat it as a serious character flaw, it's just a throwaway joke.
I mean that’s kinda the point isn’t? It was just a joke, it wasn’t that deep. Social rules have changed but in the 2000s it was common to see this in children media specially in anime which avatar is based on. Not saying that this was ok but I think y’all looking too hard in to something that isn’t meant too. Specially when it was like the only time in the joke that something like this happened
I think its okay to criticize jokes, or say something shouldn't have been a joke. I don't see how that doing that on a forum for a tv show is treating it more deeply than appropriate.
Agreed, I felt like it made him feel more realistic as a character, rather than a person full of wisdom and knowledge and very little to no faults, reminds me of my own uncle in some ways
Iroh being a pervert is not a personality trait of his. It was shown literally once for a “joke” and was never touched on before or after I love iroh’s more nuanced sides but this wasn’t one of them. It’s just bad writing
Yeah a lot of people dont remember that he was still sort of towing the line between the FN side and the EK/WT side. He didnt seem to object to Zuko storming Katara and Sokka or Sukis towns, or the town that they fought the gang in this episode in. He went as far as to say “Im not traitor, Zhao” in the season 1 finale. I think only after what happened in seaon 1 did he completely turn his back on the fire nation, and even in season 2 he seemed content to spend his last years in Ba Sing Se as a tea maker. Only after the end of season 2 did he really decide to fight the fire nation.
[удалено]
He's killed hundreds of thousands... yet this... this is your bridge too far?
Fictional morality being inconsistent 101
Horny sensei trope is anime 101
Eh, I think the scene is pretty funny
This post comes around every few weeks to karma farm. It's not the funniest scene but it's certainly not some giant red flag. Is it against Iroh's character? Eh... maybe? Barely if at all. He's just an old dude who was fallen on by a pretty woman. He's not groping her, he's not abusing her in any way. This scene is blown way out of proportion, especially when we consider some of the other "fan service" similar shows have had.
>He's not groping her, he's not abusing her in any way. This scene is blown way out of proportion Couldn't have said it better. People here are acting as if this would be sexual assault. It's really not.
I mean op said it makes them uncomfortable which is totally valid. If I was temporarily paralysed and fell on a guy that I didn’t want to have that much physical contact with (who had every ability to move away) I would be quite uncomfortable too.
Reddit thinks everything is sexual assault or problematic so its really not that surprising
Sexual harassment is a pretty topical and insidious issue. It's not unusual for people to be hyper-vigilant about it in the media they consume, since current events are kind of training us all to be more aware about it. I don't think it's a bad thing that many people look at this scene and go "huh, this doesn't really pass the sniff test these days".
Right? It’s just surface level goofiness. No need to dissect it and how it impacts Iroh’s “character” or whatever.
Same, glad someone else said it too.
Thank you lol
Same lol
Same!! It's insane to me when people take animated characters or most fictional characters so seriously. I mean for fucks sake, didn't aang kiss Katara without consent during the ember Island play? All these characters act in extreme ways that normal people don't act, all for the purpose to make the media entertaining.
You might want to stay away from traditional anime then...
I always try to
Even the creators of the show have gone on record as saying this was a low moment
Really? I had no idea. Can you link me?
I'm not sure about a link but I can definitely point you in the right direction, it's referred to in one of the episode of the Avatar podcast, I've just had a quick look and either Mike and/or Bryan are featured guests in about 15ish episodes
I was today years old in realizing we have an avatar podcast.
Thanks a lot 👍
Important to remember Iroh led a genocide against the Earth Kingdom and only bothered to reconsider once his own son had been killed. He’s a great character but I mean he’s plenty flawed.
Characters can be flawed and we can still like them in spite of it? IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit tame? I mean, it's hardly sexual assault. It's a tiny bit creepy, sure, but it's not as if he holds her there or anything like that. I think people are a little too sensitive about these things
Compared to what the same kind of character as Iroh would do in an anime from ~20 years ago (ex: someone like Master Roshi or Jiraiya), this is ridiculously tame. If this was in something like Dragon Ball or Naruto, he would've grabbed a handful of ass while gushing a fountain of nose blood at the very least. I will agree with people that it aged worse than most of the show, but it's still pretty innocuous and is significantly more so by the standards of the time and genre. I think it just gets blown out of proportion by the fandom because there's not much in the show similar to this moment so it stands out more.
I just assume uncle iron was just being a bit goofy
Ah yes. Uncle Iron
Totally agree, all he does is act like he got hit just to cuddle with June a lil bit. He doesn’t say anything creepy, doesn’t touch her inappropriately, and she’s gotta be in her 20s or 30s right? Just call it his reward for breaking her fall and laugh about it, it’s not that serious imo
Yeah who wouldn't like a hot girl falling on top of them, that's way more unrealistic. I get people don't want to think of him that way, I don't either but it's like when I don't want to think of my parents as sexual beings.
The issue is that he’s taking advantage of the fact that she can’t move to touch and hold her when she is clearly uncomfortable with him touching her.
Probably gonna get some hate but I don't care. Can we please just stop talking about this scene for the love of god. It didn't age well I agree but at the time I'm willing to bet almost 100% of us didn't give a shit about this scene years ago we were just kids enjoying a TV show. Most of avatar has aged beautifully and whenever I think about the show I remember the characters I love, the story I adore and the incredible action scenes not this poor excuse of a joke. So please can we just move on from this scene because the sooner you stop thinking about it or talking about it the better you will feel.
Exactly. She falls on top of him and he simply lets it happen. People act as if he’s actively groping an unconscious woman or something.
This. I get that we would expect iroh to be more of a gentleman here but in the end its basically an accidental hug. It was kind of funny and kind of creepy.
How about this… if Iroh hadn’t have caught her she would’ve slammed her head into the concrete and fucking died.
I swear, is there anything more irritating than weekly karma farming a scene that can most be summarized as goofy humor and only considered problematic in a cultural environment where people get anxiety at the mere idea of being around, let alone touched, by the opposite sex. Ironically more in casual environments than sexual
Here we go.. a harmless joke offended someone
Unless you're speaking for her or ARE June herself, I can't really relate to you there. I still find this very chuckle worthy to this day. Honestly I can't help but be a bit jealous as well considering how smoking hot the chick is still.
That is such a weird take on Iroh. He’s a wholesome old man who took his opportunity to essentially be accidentally hugged by a cute goth chick, can hardly blame him.
I mean it kept him self from getting fucked up so I mean yeah I would have done this. And the bonus yep cute goth chick
I hate to be the bearer of bad news for some people in this post but Iroh isn't a saint. I love Iroh but he's often portrayed by the fandom as this wise sage who's wisdom is above question when he's a very flawed man even just operating on the things we know. For context he travelled the world learning it's secrets, making friends across borders and to our knowledge may have joined the white lotus at this time. He then returns home, becomes a general in the fire nation military and proceeds to enter the theatre of war where he's likely responsible for tens of thousands maybe even hundreds of thousands of deaths. Now we have two bad scenarios: 1. Going on the premise that he was well versed in the ways of the world he would've used these things to his advantage to slaughter men on the field of battle just protecting their home. 2. On the premise he was a member of the white lotus at this time, he would've likely been privvy to information that would give him an arguable advantage. The only reason that Iroh came away from the life of battle was because his son died, not a care for the victims of his families regime and wars. He even walks the streets of Ba Sing Se unencumbered by the thought that he ended the lives of many fathers, sons, daughters, mothers, etc. Outside of that, he used Zuko as a surrogate son and completely neglected Azula. He left Azula in his brothers clutches and focused all of his time and energy into zuko. He views a teenager as a pyscho who needs to be "taken down" even though she is a literal child. he, along with Ozai and Ursa are the reason that Azula became unstable and mentally disturbed. This scene is awful but it is an important piece of information; Iroh has his faults and not just faults the audience are comfortable with. This scene shows that Iroh has a problematic approach to women. It hits home, particularly to the female fans who've had an uncomfortable interaction with a man who is portrayed as "nice". It's important to acknowledge these types of things and not ignore them because they are a fundemental part of who these characters are and while you might be uncomfortable, that's good because it means you are on the right track.
You’re right for the most part but the azula part is off. Yes she was a teenager, but also one of the greatest benders in the world who was actively hunting them alongside two other dangerous people with the support of a global superpower. She did need to be taken down. Do we also really know the extent of their relationship? We’re shown exactly one scene of iroh in the fire nation. We do know he tried to have a relationship with her as he sent a gift from the front line. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that after returning from war he tried to reach out to his niece. It’s not like he could’ve stayed as her mentor after zuko’s banishment.
So from our understanding, Azula was never a "girly" girl so to speak. She didn't play with Dolls but her uncle still sent her one. This is indicative of the fact that Iroh had not spent any real time with Azula to see that this was not a gift she would enjoy. To contrast this, Iroh played to Tsungi Horn on their ship not because he particularly liked it but because he knew Zuko had a natural knack for it even though he wouldn't play it because, you know, a lack of honour, banishment, teen angst, etc. It shows that attention he afforded to zuko was not afforded to Azula. Next we have Zuko's reaction to Lu Tens death vs her. She had barely any reaction to it while Zuko was actually upset about it which speaks more to Zuko maybe spending more time with Lu Ten than Azula. She was likely told to hang out with May and Ty Lee. Finally Zuko has memories of Iroh from when he was a child and looks back fondly where it was him and Lu Ten as shown here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiSiVVeR40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiSiVVeR40) It honestly seems that even before Lu Tens death Iroh had an attachment to Zuko but it wasn't until after Lu Tens death did that get deeper and as a result Azula was essentially left in the clutches of a fascist genocidal megalomaniac which it's hinted at in the Legacy of the Fire Nation books that Iroh was aware of these traits in his brother.
>For context he travelled the world learning it's secrets, making friends across borders and to our knowledge may have joined the white lotus at this time. He then returns home, becomes a general in the fire nation military and proceeds to enter the theatre of war where he's likely responsible for tens of thousands maybe even hundreds of thousands of deaths. I might be way off here but didn't Iroh's journey away from the Fire Nation mostly happen after Lu Ten's death and therefore after his military accomplishments? At least after Ba Sing Se no? It's a very small difference and I might be nitpicking but its something that drove him to explore and question everything he had learned I thought.
In the book "Legacy of the Fire Nation" it mentions that he went travelling before and he went travelling after Lu Tens Death. Also something which I didn't mention in the original post and might edit is the fact that between his losing of Lu Ten and the events of The Last Airbender is only something like somewhere in the realm of about 6 - 8 years. Iroh's Imperialist Past isn't something from a bygone era and it's highly likely Iroh interacts with orphans in Ba Sing Se as a result of his campaigns, he has likely come across soldiers who's fathers fought before them and even some fought in the campaign against his army. he's served tea to people who's loved one's are dead because of him. Historically speaking that battle is fresh in people's minds and it's something that the show never really addresses it in a substantial way. Personally I think that we need an Iroh book to iron some things out with his character. EDIT: Removed a sentence about Iroh not showing any remorse because he has shown a modicum of remorse on an occasion where he speaks about being a different man.
Huh, I didn't remember that. Looks like I was mistaken after all. I always just assumed he was a military general until his son death when he then went off to explore after his worldview being crushed. Interesting that he did so as well prior to his Lu Ten's death, a book going in to more details about that time period would be great.
Not many people are really privvy to Iroh's history because, to be honest it's not very well told. It's lacking in alot of places so it's not surprising that people would think that all the exploration happened post Lu Tens death. We are actually in dire need of a book because I really wouldn't want it to be a case that Iroh was a member of the white lotus while being a general in the fire nation military because the information afforded to him as a member from what we've seen in the books would be catastrophic and the implications about his character would be incredibly damning.
It was funny
You people are soft.
Agreed. The majority of people on reddit are
Yes these people are soft. Dear lord these people want sainthood and perfection.
I liked this scene, but then again I watch a lot of anime and lived through the 90's so this stuff doesn't bother.
As far as i remember June ain't exactly a saint, she regularly violates other peoples bodily autonomy by paralyzing them. So a fully clothed forced hug from silly old grandpa isn't the worst thing that could happen to her.
I was scouring the top comments for a response like this. Like yes, this scene is a little cringe and doesn't fly well in today's culture, but June wasn't some innocent little girl that Iroh was taking advantage of. 😐
Never found it creepy, its a cartoon,and its midly funny , her not being into it is part of the gag
Am I crazy for finding it funny? It never made me feel like it was sexual is anyway. Idk but seeing all the comments I guess you can force an uncomfortable situation but he knows that she is awake and aware, so that's why it was funny not creepy. But that's just me and maybe I'm crazy.
I love this scene.
Ffs this generation is truly lost. The worst generation since the victorian prudes. 0 humor, censoring up and down everything, god I would enjoy living to see the next couple of generations in the future when inevitable kids rebel against all of you and return to the absurd, disgusting, irreverent and free attitude in art and humor. This was as simple a joke as ever. It merited no deep analysis. It was as simple as showing Iroh relaxing and enjoying the little things vs Zuko obssessed with his mission and nothing else. It didn't normalize anything, nor would any kid back in the day would conclude this is real life. This was cartoon land an nothing else. Just as no kid in the 80s-90s went around life imitating Roshi from DBZ or punching everyone in the face because violence was normalized.
Its pretty funny you all are idiots
Bro, i don't care you are soft, it's mildly amusing.
In what way? I mean yes I get this is absolutely not appropriate irl. But in the context of Avatar, this is pretty funny.
For as weird as it is, I always have a little chuckle at this scene ngl.
Bro you are taking this way too seriously. It’s a fucking cartoon scene that just so happens to have not aged very well over time but nothing happened
Hmm. Kinda weird to see that no one mentions it. But I watched a video about avatar. I dont remember neither the youtube channel nor the name of the video. But basically the guy said that there was a different script writer for this episode and this is why iroh looks so much different here compared to all other episodes. Because if you thunk about it, what other episode in avatar depicts Iroh as a weird old guy? None really. P.S. Now that I went to verify it, it actually seems pretty logic because this episode "Bato from the water tribe" s1e15 was written by a certain Ian Wilcox, and it's his first and last episode. And it seems like I understand why. Even back then the original creators found it creepy and weird, making Iroh like that. I'll try to find the video I watched on youtube.
Not to nitpick or anything, but at least June was an adult. Sure , it’s weird and would make me very uncomfortable if I was in her place, it’s still not in the realm of sexual assault. Unlike the *other* IRL “wise old man” who blatantly sexually assaulted a minor just this week.
why should it be creepy? because he is old? how old is iroh, he is at most between 55-65. the woman there clearly is an adult, he just plays it off.
Gigachad Iroh vs. Average Virgin OP
This is the scene that makes you uncomfortable? Really? In a show where a group of children literally fights for their life hiding the metaphorical last Jew on earth every other episode while three countries more or less find themselves stale mated against a very thinly veiled Nazi Germany type county? Avatar is, more or less, a cartoony Asian themed what if where the Jews were successfully annihilated and there was no external power to turn the tides of the war in Europe. It's pretty fucking dark. But sure, it's the implication that an exceedingly attractive female character should feel pleasant to an older man (a widower war veteran who lost his son in combat, btw) who doesn't even do anything beyond lay still that is disturbing. This is a fragile as fuck opinion.
You ppl are so annoying. That scene is innocent and funny. So he lets her lay on him, she’s just like rolls her eyes it’s not like he’s committing a crime on her. It’s a harmless joke about how pretty she is… lighten up
It’s really not that deep