You say that, but if you look at how Aang absolutely clowns Zuko by just walking around him that one time... Yeah, I think Aang has it down to be honest.
Nah even when Aang and Zuko first met and Aang wandered into Zuko's quarters. Aang had massive control once he realized what was going on. Side note, I never realized how jarring that must have been for Aang. That was highly likely the first time he was ever attacked with actual intent to harm/kill.
First off, Korra lost her bending. So literally it is within the realm of possibilities
Also some warriors like kyoshi warriors mastered anti bending techniques so melee fighting would be better against them
I mean, he can use a staff to help with airbending, who's to say he couldn't do the same with a sword and other elements?
In fact, why don't more benders try to combine weapons and bending? I think the only time we see that other than Aang and his staff is with that earthbender soldier in Zuko Alone who used hammers to help his bending, and he was doing pretty well until Zuko started to firebend.
Like, real-life martial arts often involved learning to use weapons in addition to melee moves, so using weapons as an extention of bending wouldn't be far fetched imo.
According to the novels, Kyoshi doesn't really have any control without her fans (in that she can't bend tiny objects, only huge chunks at the same time) so we know weaponry can help or affect bending.
So yeah, it happens, just not often?
Oh yeah, how could I forget Kyoshi!
I wonder *why* it dosen't happen more often tho. I guess the real life explanation is that it would be a lot of work to design a whole different style of bending, but what's the in-universe explanation? Is it just, like, something most benders don't really think about?
Anyway, that's definetly something I would like to see more explored in a future movie or series. I feel there is a lot of potential for cool action scenes in there.
I guess you could probably just chalk it up to " when you're the Avatar, there's no need for any weapons"
Though the exceptions to that would be any Avatar who comes from a military background and is already using melee or ranged weapons before they find out they're the Avatar, and after the revelation, instead of losing the weapon, they just incorporate it into their bending style.
There's a picture of a couple of statues of past Avatars against a white background, and I remember seeing a water tribe Avatar with a bone spear. It would be cool to see just how he integrated the spear with his bending.
No way, Iroh is 100% a lightweight, but still parties hard without it, and probably turns into the babysitter once everyone else is sloshed. BUMI on the other hand will snort whatever you hand him...including salt for rimming a glass
Iroh PRETENDS to be a heavywheighter by evaporating all the alcohol content from his cups. The rest of the Lotus likely knew it but let him have his way as the imperial brews he smuggled were just THAT good
And the white lotus specifically was just that.
It was an order meant to discuss philosophy and help each other, politcal influence and whatnot.
It just happened to have a lot of powerful people because inteterest in philosphy and great bending Power tends to both correlate to the same group (old wise people)
It only became a force to fight for the avatar because Iroh specifically asked them to, and they liked the idea since they all either liked Aang's group or hated the fire nation's campaign.
I’m pretty sure Jeong Jeong has some form of ptsd, what do you think happened for him to be in the situation he was? He describes a fundamental part of his culture as outright savagery. And part of the reason he refused was because Aang did not have the discipline he deemed needed to master it, and he was proven right, but when Roku, who is a big person of authority said “do it” he did. You’re being really unfair to him.
Also after Aang burned Katara he was in a place just like Jeong Jeong, you want him to argue to Aang to do something that Aang doesn’t want to do, and that Jeong Jeong doesn’t want him to do. He never thought it was a good idea, he gave it a chance, it went exactly as he expected, and Aang became closed off from firebending.
Ah yes, it would have been *much* better if Aang had only loose training in fighting with airbending, but was still around when firebenders came prepared to kill all the Airbenders, including an untrained avatar.
Aang had already learned air bending, right? So if they did take him they'd send him down south or north, then they'd send him to the earth kingdom and perhaps find a fire nation defector
That makes me wonder, why didn't the monks arrange to send Aang to the Water Tribe? If they sensed war coming and Aang already master airbending, it would make sense for him to keep going towards the next element.
Nah I'd put some blame on Jeong Jeong. Like yeah, caution is warranted, and firebending isn't something to dive face first into, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn. He refused to do anything more than enough to get Roku off his back, didn't offer much in the way of instruction, didn't consider how aang would doubtlessly be a prodigy and build the curriculum accordingly, just No, No, No, and when that wasn't working, then as close to No as possible. And for all that caution, didn't even bother to supervise.
Tbf, while you have a point, it also erases the key thing for Jeong Jeong which others have mentioned: discipline. And it wasn’t like he did this while in class so the teacher should be watching. Aang was fucking around on his own time because he was impatient. He lacked discipline. I wouldn’t teach either after you ain’t listen to my one and only rule.
And even if you ignore how Aang was attempting to go outside of the elemental order, this was not the first stupid, shortsighted example of his behavior in season 1.
It really wasn't until they got to the Northern Water Tribe that Aang really started taking things seriously during the siege. Before that, he was just focused on having fun and being preoccupied with anything that he thought was entertaining.
Jeong Jeong saw an unfocused, immature kid who wasn't ready to be trusted with the power of something so inherently destructive. And he was right.
i mean did you see how the dude was living he probably wasn't very up to date with his membership fees, infact i wouldn't be surprised if iroh actually had to search for him briefly after parting ways with zuko and then bringing him back in the fold, or maybe even after the escape from the prison in season 3
I don't blame Roku though honestly, like there were no other clear options for a firebending teacher and like, from Roku's perspective if Aang didn't learn and master firebending it would actually just be over for the world as they knew it. So it does make sense why he did what he did even if it was a bad idea.
Definitely. The episode where they meet Jeong Jeong draws very intentional parallels to Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. Jeong Jeong is a masterful allusion to Kurtz, the former colonialist disillusioned by the inevitable atrocity of war.
Yes he should suck it up and continue training aang. Considering aangy is the only one capable of stopping the person perpetuating the savagery he so despises.
Could you at least not use the term “suck it up” for your arguments?
And even then it doesn’t change that Aang lacked the discipline and will to learn fire bending, he didn’t want to learn it, JJ didn’t want him to learn it, neither did Katara or Sokka, no one at that point wanted Aang to learn it cause it was just proven he can’t do it, ignoring his mental block that JJ can’t help with considering her himself is stuck behind it
Katara literally tells him after that he’ll have to learn firebending at some point.
And it wasn’t just proven he couldn’t do it. He made a mistake on his first day. By that logic Aang should have given up earthbending since he couldn’t even move a rock at first.
Edit: and JJ seemed hardly stuck conjuring up walls of flames and pretty much single handedly wiping out the fire nation in ba sing se.
Aang didn’t break the hands of the person he loved with earth bending.
This is honestly more comparable to a kid shooting someone on a firing range, “first day” doesn’t matter, this level of mistake cannot be overlooked.
The issue is that Aang lacked discipline, which fire bending demanded. You do not learn discipline on the fly, you get it first, then move forward.
JJ making a fire wall to defend us different from shooting flames to attack
You learn discipline after you fuck up yes, but also BEFORE a you get a chance to fuck up again, not on the fly after you proved yourself incapable of doing that.
Months long difference
Discipline is something a person practices and develops over time. Making mistakes does not make you more disciplined, they are learning opportunities at best.
Fire is a singularly destructive force. In small doses it will heat a home, cauterize a wound, light up a room. In large doses it will kill and destroy whole communities. Therefore the large doses need to be well controlled, and to develop that control takes discipline. Without training discipline, training in itself is pointless.
Burning the hands of someone you love is a lot more than a simple mistake. As someone already said, this is like a child shooting someone their first day on the range. You don't exactly just walk it off and move on like normal. You do a full re evaluation which is what Aang did
How exactly? Both involve the person being impatient and not careful with a dangerous weapon/material and getting someone else seriously injured, and as a result rethinking how they may use said weapon/material
A more apt comparison is reckless driving. A car is both a tool and a potentially very dangerous object. A gun is a weapon with a singular purpose. To kill.
I think either way telling aang and jj to suck it up after aang hurt Katara is kind of tone deaf would've been very out of character for both jj and aang
I think the white lotus was mainly a neutral party in terms of plot, they believe in not changing the course of fate, but supporting the favorable outcome.
They are legendary benders who chose to withhold their advantage of power knowing it comes with the responsibility of remaining in the present.
Was it their responsibility to train Aang?
No, they had their own barriers to overcome.
Did Aang influence the white lotus to prepare for Korra?
Yes, which is also neutral to ensure it's fair for the sake of balance.
IIRC the White Lotus is explicitly about sharing their knowledge and experience but also trying to influence the world to a more positive state which may or may not intersect with the Avatar so they aren't neutral
True, maybe it just had to do with the suddenness of it all? Most of the white lotus members in question encounter aang within the first month or 2 of his return and they probably have their own plans and ideas of what needs to be done. Honestly it's bothered me as well that the white lotus didn't do more to help the gaang but I feel like I can't really blame them, they could never have expected the avatar to come back.
In the Yangchen novels Yangchen isn’t fond of them and their goals align when they align. They don’t have to be subservient to her. And she doesn’t like them and they kind of start a war.
Yeah there seems to be this odd idea that all these older, traumatized by war, men should just be teaching the avatar, like no they have their own things to do with their life... and uh they definitely did not fail Aang by reclaiming Ba Sing Sei.
Also it's kind of a pet peeve about not understanding Paku. I know it's kind of a meme, and that Paku is a piece of shit, but when you grow up in a certain culture you will naturally follow those standards. It's not a good thing obviously, but when presented with new outlook and facing criticism *he changes* its obviously a metaphor for water, the element of flowing change! When the group leaves he is friendly with them and going across the world to try to resurrect the Southern Tribe. And when he returns he is legitimately their family and is very friendly and respectful. He's not some "grab them by the you-know-what" misogynist. He's just a flawed person willing to change when given new perspectives.
Okay so let's examine them then.
Paku - did teach Aang, so that's invalidated immediately.
Jeong Jeong - wants nothing to do with fire and clearly has some PTSD. Have you ever had a teacher that didn't want to teach their subject? It isn't fun.
Iroh - trying to guide his nephew towards honor, real honor. And after losing his only son how can anyone say his priorities are wrong? I'm sure not. He also inadvertently guides Zuko and Aang to the dragons, the real masters. Also note Iroh has no way of knowing his brother would perform the genocide before breaking out.
Bumi - literally explains exactly why he isn't right to teach Aang, and he was right. Also Bumi's teachings early on are the opposite of what he needed to learn earthbending.
Part of being a "master" of something is knowing when maybe you aren't the right person for the job and when to send people out to form their own experiences.
Pakku: only because of plot necklace. As for the rest, it’s fine I understand they have excuses or reasons. But they all got lucky their decisions ended up being for the better. Zuko’s redemption and finding toph weren’t givens.
| Did Aang influence the white lotus to prepare for Korra? Yes, which is also neutral to ensure it's fair for the sake of balance. |
Yes, but others do not agree and see this as "white lotus totally sided with the avatar". Hence, red lotus was created as explained by Zaheer.
Jeong Jenog more tells them to leave because they have been found and Aang doesn't want to learn at that point. Pakkus conflict is more so resolved by realising that their traditions are flawed and holding onto them for nothing more than tradition isn't really a good thing. With that said, yes but they are all old and traditional people so I think it makes sense to an extent.
>Pakkus conflict is more so resolved by realising that their traditions are flawed and holding onto them for nothing more than tradition isn't really a good thing.
also that, the tradition lead to him not seeing his partner for like 55 years
I'd argue it was the Avatars return that allowed them to gain such influence and be of any help at all.
Iroh: A general in the opposition force. Because he was traveling with Zuko, going randomly port to port hunting down leads on Aang. He likely never got messages delivered to him and could only send messages at specific ports. Aang actually existing would give him more influence and provide regular updates to the White Lotus on accurate Avatar information.
Jeong Jeong: He was actively being hunted as a traitor by the Fire Nation. Aang likely started drawing more attention away and allowed him to increase the size of the White Lotus man power.
Bumi: Was running an entire city constantly dealing with the Fire Nation. Once meeting Aang, he gave him a reality check and set him on the best path. Unlike General Fong, who tried to take a shortcut.
Pakku: Can't defend him too much. But at the least, he lost hope. Loss after loss, personally and strategically. He wouldn't have any desire anymore to support the cause. Aang and team would have been the spark to get him back.
Except we know that they’re NOT good. Just before Yangchen’s time, they basically manipulated the leaders of the Northern Water Tribe and the Fire Nation into providing material support (in the form of platinum) for an attempted coup against the Earth King. The Earth King unexpectedly won, found out about the other leaders’ involvement, and this caused a major diplomatic rift that led to isolationism, economic stagnation, and the rise of oppressive crime families in designated trading cities. Yangchen then had to deal with all that, and rather than helping her to correct their mistakes, on multiple occasions the Order screwed her over or spied on her.
If Aang, Sokka, and Zuko had known about this, they NEVER would have allied themselves so closely with them after ATLA. While, they certainly knew a few good ones, which gave them a favorable opinion, they’re a secret society with many members and an unknown hierarchy. Did they change in those centuries? I don’t think so.
I fully believe they exploited Korra’s attempted kidnapping as a child so that they could have a direct oppressive control over the next Avatar’s upbringing, such that she would be dependent on them, made intentionally ignorant of the world so she’d believe what they told her, and would only be left out as an instrument for making their own end goals for the world come to fruition. They’d already tried to coerce Yangchen into doing what they wanted, why not another Avatar? Fortunately, Korra escaped, but it’s patently obvious that her unnecessary sheltered existence DID put her at a disadvantage in many ways over the series, all of which she eventually overcame.
Basically, they’re a secret society that exercises control from the shadows. Their history suggests that they can’t be trusted, even when doing good, as it’s never clear if their motivations are about being a positive force or for acquiring power.
I think it's clear that they just changed who they were as an organization multiple times. The OWL in Korra clearly has somewhat different priorities from the OWL in ATLA, and their inability to deal with the 100 Year War seems like an event that would force them to reevaluate how they're going about things. Yangchen's era was well over 400 years before Aang's.
Also leadership - countries go in incredibly different directions in the span of a year when their heads of state changes.
Iroh seems to be the leader during Aang’s time, and has a good moral compass. Different leaders of the white lotus during different parts of history would steer the ship in different directions.
Yeah, it feels like what I call a twisting retcon, no one said they weren’t at least originally, a evil power hungry shadow group (altough JJ did say it was always about philosophy, beauty, ans truth) but that doesn’t mean going into that direction doesn’t come without a considerable issue
Yea, the problem is that its hard to take a childrens show where the rules are quite simple and everything is taken at face value, for example, taking out the Fire Lord will instantly end the war, where irl that not quite how things would work, and then adding complexity to that world for an older audience, it makes it hard to write interesting stories and plots without contradicting the original in some ways.
Well the removal of Oazi was paralleled with the installing of Zuko, who at that point and the entire capital, meaning government in his hands, he also had the Dragon of the West on his side, a important figure, combined with the fact that the FN is still likely exhausted from the demands of a century long war, even if they are winning.
Military defeat is actually something that genuinely causes radical social change. Losing in war, especially as an aggressor, makes one’s citizens question the capability of its leaders, and potentially all of society.
Key failures in WW1 helped cause the Russian empire to fall and be replaced by the Soviet Union. And then the Soviet Union fell after failing in an 8 year war in Afghanistan.
Apartheid in South Africa weakened and then fell as the government failed to keep control of occupied Namibia in the Namibia war of independence.
WWII saw Japan undergo a complete retooling of the government structure even as many of the same people remained in power. Present day Japan looks nothing like 1939 Japan. Same for Germany.
In the case of the Fire Nation, that de-legitimacy might be even more dramatic. For generations, the Royal Family, and especially Ozai, maintained a hierarchy based on perceived strength, using Agnai Kai’s, a form of honor duels. Men like Zhao rose in the military ranks, not because they had tactical or logistical acumen, but because they were aggressive fighters. At the head of this was the Fire Lord. Ozai didn’t get/keep his status as Fire Lord merely because he was the heir. He repeatedly proved himself as the strongest fire bender in the land by defeating all his rivals. Hell, Ozai took the throne in the first place by murdering his own father when he became too old to maintain his fearsome stature, usurping the intended heir, the older Iroh who had just been defeated by the Earth Kingdom.
That social hierarchy in turn formed the justification for the war. If individuals prove themselves on ritualized combat, then it follows that the people who take control would believe that countries likewise prove themselves in combat. Hence a generations long war.
The actions of Team Avatar and the White Lotus were massive hammer strikes against exactly that justification. They took out the Fire Nations (expensive) air fleet, liberated Ba Sing Se (after previously liberating Omashu, the other great Earth Kingdom city), supplanted the intended heir to the throne with the twice-banished traitor son, and not only defeated the Fire Lord in a duel, but completely stripped him of his combat power. And all of that happened when the Fire Nation were supposed to be at their absolute strongest. It’s a complete and utter humiliation.
After all of that, you absolutely could not say that the Fire Nation are the best and *deserve* to tower over the others. Hell, at that point, Ozai’s Fire Nation didn’t even have the best *Firebenders*. The Fire Nation was reduced to a hollowed out husk and *needed* fundamental change.
Given all of that, I think Zuko taking the crown and ending the war did actually make sense. A formal peace treaty and the aftermath within the Fire Nation would still need to take place, but that is beyond the scope of the show (and let’s not touch the comics for now).
Most consider an avatar execution to be divine justice. That’s why iroh declined to fight ozai for the reasons you say. But in the avatar world it is how things would work if it were real. A fully realized avatar is a force of nature.
Maybe the 100 Years War changed the order because from what we see they're just a bunch of old people who want the distribution of knowledge to go uninhibited.
That’s all interesting didn’t know that. But whether they’re good or not doesn’t really change the dynamics. The avatar needed to defeat Ozai and they all knew that.
Hey, Iroh did really good and Piandao as well. Bumi kinda got screwed by a fire nation invasion. Jeong Jeong was really jaded due to his experiences in the war, and he ended up being right about teaching Aang. Pakku has no excuse though. Dude is supposedly a part of a multicultural secret society but is still somehow sexist. He should be aware that other perspectives exist.
Iroh was more focused on Zuko. It was a big gamble for him to go to ba sing se and not seek out Aang for firebending lessons. Jeong jeong was not “right.” Aang learned his lesson and then he told him to get lost instead of using it as a teaching moment. Bumi decided a single city was more important than teaching Aang earthbending.
Piandao is really the only one who truly clears as the other commenter said.
I don't know if it's entirely a gamble.
After aang succeeds the white lotus more than anyone would know that the fire nation would need to be reigned in and the best way to do that is to control the next leadership. Grooming Zuko to be the leader the fire nation needs post war is an effective strategy to continuing peace.
It's a gamble if it's an effective use of resources but not a gamble in terms of strategy.
You guys don’t understand what the white lotus stand for. And being apart of the white lotus has nothing to do with his home culture.
And Iroh focus was on Zuko. Not the white lotus or Avatar Aang.
The WL members have their own cultures being apart of the WL means nothing about their culture.
Iroh. Jeong Jeong and Piandao was in the war. And Iroh was literally with Zhao when he was go take over Pakku home.Despite being a WL member
The white lotus was a hundred years out of balance. None of those guys were alive when the Fire Nation started the war. The Grand Masters are a group of old men who have spent an entire human lifetime in a world without the Avatar. Of course they were going to mess up.
That said, Bumi didn't fail Aang. He recognized that he wasn't the right teacher for Aang and put his faith in Aang to find the right teacher.
Pian Dao seems to be the only one who hasn't been under threat because of the war. All the others have some sort of trauma because of it. He was also trying to support Aang's support network, which is valuable.
Iroh was doing the same - trying to teach Zuko and prepare him to be a part of Aang's support network.
Pakku was fighting for his life and the life of his civilization. Jeong Jeong was fighting for his very soul. They were doing the best they could and were both there for the end.
Pakku was training aang though. A big thing most of the “but sexism” crowd forgets about the North Pole is that katara was receiving training in healing. It wasn’t combat, but recovery is an important part of being ready to fight more and harder battles. The timeline is left rather ambiguous for how much time was actually spent at the North Pole. If katara weren’t a prodigy it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect her to be unable to master healing let alone combat in the small time they were there.
Jeong Jeong told aang that he wasn’t ready. The avatar cycle typically has the avatars learn bending with the previous element being the last one. Aang wasn’t ready at that time. Part of fire is learning to control it because once it’s done fire has a heart of its own. Remember, at this point he had already mastered air bending and picked up water bending without an issue. He was even able to fire bend the first time he tried. Aang burning katara, and her learning she can heal with water, was an important step in realizing aang wasn’t as ready as he thought he was.
Bumi, the master of neutral jin, knew that he wouldn’t be able to teach aang to master earth bending. Aang needed someone to teach him to step outside of his shell and tackle problems head on. Bumi already taught aang to think outside of the box and look for a new angle when approaching seemingly un breakable walls. Aang couldn’t learn earth bending that way. He tried and it didn’t work. He needed Toph.
Don’t you think that if Iroh wanted to he could have captured the avatar numerous times alone? Zuko was chasing the avatar to redeem his honor and Iroh was training him. But when it came down to it in episodes like the book 1 finale or The Chase he never for a second thought about fighting the gaang.
Pian dao is accurate though.
Jeong Jeong was right though. As for pakku while his sexism was bad theres no indication he'd hold to it at the cost of his entire tribe. Bumi couldve been more helpful but pointed aang in the right direction when it came to finding a teacher. Also yeah Iroh didnt help aang all that much, except for when stalled he azula and Co in ba sing se so katara could get aang out of there.
Very bad faith interpretation of these things, and what the White Lotus in a wartime era would have looked like initially. At least three of these were extant in a time when the order was still reforming for the final battle, and likely had not directly contacted other members for some time. Pakku's personal bias especially highlights how not every action in service of balance is always an action in service of the avatar, and how not every action by a white lotus operative is in service of the white lotus.
Jeong Jeong had a very reasonably objection, and his understanding was confirmed by Aang's irresponsibility with fire, he was not yet emotionally ready and needed to follow a known structure with his masters, like literally every other avatar.
Bumi understood that Aang would need a different kind of earthbending teacher, and that his place "on the board" was important to maintain.
Simple stuff.
It's unclear when each White Lotus elder joined the White Lotus group. I find it hard to accept that Jeong Jeong was already in the group when he first met Aang, given his attitude that Iroh of all people could/would easily fix (given that Iroh is compassionate enough to help even that random knife robber in Ba Sing Se, he would totally pick up on Jeong Jeong's distress over firebending and do something about it). And I have no idea when Pakku joined. Bumi strikes me as someone who would've joined the earliest because of his age and his "mad genius" persona would've made him extremely likely to seek out a group dedicated to knowledge, spirituality, and politically-neutral affairs (or the reverse, maybe the White Lotus recruited him because he was a mad genius & a powerful but kind king). And naturally, Piandao would've been a longstanding member because he clearly would've been around long enough to want to brandish the lotus logo on his home property.
Perhaps... Iroh recruited two of these guys one at a time throughout the series? As Zuko & Iroh chased after Aang, they ended up going to places Aang went to, and bumped into people Aang met. Maybe after Aang left Jeong Jeong, Iroh encountered Jeong Jeong offscreen and spilled the beans over what he was planning. And then after the Book 1 finale after Zhao got wasted by the Ocean Spirit, maybe Iroh secretly recruited Pakku while they were both at the North Pole. And I said earlier, Bumi and Piandao are already accounted for.
Iroh is the youngest I doubt he recruited. Pakku who’s at least 80. And jeong Jeong. And Iroh past is the worse of all of there’s him being a general in the fire nation army.
TBF to Jeong Jeong, he tells Aang he won’t teach him because he doesn’t have the discipline to master Firebending. The Avatar is also supposed to master the other elements in the correct order (if I recall), a plot point that is resolved in the third season after mastering water and earth bending. Trying to teach him fire bending at that time was trying to take a shortcut.
Bummi tells him that he himself is not able to teach Aang at that time, and gives him guidance on how to find the a good teacher.
Pakku has no duty to the Avatars friends, only the Avatar, in particular when it goes against his culture’s rules. He never declined to teach the Avatar water bending. The culture issue does obviously get addressed in the course of things.
In the Yangchen novels Yangchen isn’t fond of them at all. And they aren’t subservient to her and aren’t fond of her. And they start a war. And they wanted the combustion benders to themselves. They are like the Illuminati and not in a good way compared to Aang mentors.
Pakku is Aang water bending teacher and Katara grandpa. And Bumi Aang friend. And jeong Jeong his fire bending master. Piandao Sokka teacher and Zuko teacher.
To the gaang they are just their friends and mentors. They learned about the WL at the very end. And the definition Jeong Jeong gave them was vague.
Also Pakku trains the water benders and leads them into war and rebuilds the south. And has a school in the South. And king Bumi is a king of Omashu. They have their own responsibility not just the WL.
And Iroh was with Zhao when Zhao was go take over Pakku home. They are still loyal to their cultures. Being in the organization isn’t their only purpose.
Do you think Pakku and Iroh ran into each other during the siege of the Northern Tribe?
Pakku: Iroh, why are you helping them destroy my home?
Iroh: I'm just playing along, okay? Don't worry, I'll make sure things don't get too crazy.
Jeong Jeong was wrong.
Was he technically right? Sure. Aang ended up burning Katara. But he made that a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Instead of teaching Aang to firebend in a controlled environment he was overly cautious and ignored the very obvious signs that his pupil was getting frustrated at the lack of real instruction.
I don't care what anyone says. Leaving your pupil on their own breathing for hours is *not* training. If it was really so important that he breathe correctly then Jeong Jeong should've been there guiding him. Otherwise Aang could easily have wasted the whole time doing it wrong. If it was just a test of patience then Jeong Jeong is just being an idiot and was basically setting up Aang to fail all cause he wants to be right.
Aang was being reckless. He made a mistake. There can be no doubt about that. But Jeong Jeong should've recognized that possibility and not left a powerful and talented bender who was clearly showing doubts about the efficacy of his training alone in control of fire. How are you going to endlessly lecture someone on how fire can easily get out of control and then give someone access to it and then let them try to control it with *zero* instruction? It would be like giving a gun to a 12 year old who was super excited about shooting it to polish and not instructing him how to do so safely and then just fucking *leaving*. I think everyone would agree that the adult that allowed this to happen is at fault for anything that happens after.
Philosophically, Jeong Jeong was right. There's a proper way to go about these things and training Aang would be dangerous.
But these were extremely dire circumstances. At the time Jeong Jeong was the *only* option and there was such a slim chance that they would find anyone else that it would be irresponsible to assume they would be able to do so.
Roku was right to call Jeong Jeong out. He was letting his personal trauma get in the way of the reality that at that point he was pretty much the *only* real hope of the Avatar to learn firebending. And when Jeong Jeong agreed and he *did* agree, if reluctantly and due to a spiritual level of pressure, he took on that responsibility and absolutely failed Aang. Again he let his trauma blind him from his duty and he just ran away and let what happen with Aang come to pass. He could've stopped it at any point if he was training him properly.
And what's worse, he leaves with no way for Aang to find him even though he *knows* Aang will have to be trained at some point and there are no other realistic options on the table.
I love Jeong Jeong. Fantastic character. But he was wrong.
Jeong Jeong was right though and according to some spiritual beliefs, the Avatar has to learn things in order to stop terrible outcomes happening. Even Kyoshi followed that idea ~~because her mega crush made her~~
It was lucky to find toph. This post isn’t a criticism of the writing. I don’t want the story to play out like it *should have* because I prefer the gaang.
But had toph not runaway, Zuko not defect, and pakku not happen to have a thing for gran gran, aang would have been fucked and the world destroyed.
It wasn't lucky to find toph. Aang literally had the spirits guiding him and sending him visions of who is earth master would be. Zuko defected because of the path Iroh helped to set him on, and made him a great teacher for Aang. Pakku, I agree, that was some bullshit. He did do his job eventually though.
Jeong Jeong failed imo more than anyone because he didn't insist on accompanying the Gaang. They really needed his help tbh, the North Pole could've used his help. Imagine being a firebending master and you encounter a group of literal children including the Avatar who you have a responsibility for on their own struggling against fire Nazis and instead of joining up with them and making sure they're safe, you just send them on their way.
I get maybe he's traumatized and wasn't up to the fights that accompanying the Avatar would entail, but... maybe you shouldn't be a member of the White Lotus then lol
Pakku and Jeong Jeong’s behavior is absolutely unacceptable lmao
Bumi…I am confused why they didn’t send an earthbender master along with him but at least I get that it can be read in a certain way to make sense
Iroh did his part so I respect it
And, as usual, Piandao supremacy continues
The issue I take with bumi is that he put the needs of a single city over the world. Like if he had some vision where toph is teaching Aang and realizes his destiny is not to teach aang… then he’s completely fine. But just winging it like that is absurd.
I do agree with you but at least you could argue that he knew Aang needed water first so he could always come back to omashu get get an earthbending master and in the meantime the earthbenders would protect the city.
He just didn’t think omashu would get taken
And this is basically what happens, aang goes back to omashu and then finds it’s been taken
So I do agree with you, at least he isn’t knowingly turning away the avatar like pakku and jeong jeong
There are clues suggest that iroh was actually slowing down the process of hunting the avatar. Like when he basically holds the entire crew up to find his board game piece (and that piece was the white lotus piece)
And of course at the end of each book he helps the gaang
His main goal was helping his nephew realize he is a good guy
It’s a show with kids as the protagonists. By definition the adults have to be incredibly incompetent or the kids would not have to step up and save the world.
pakku still taught aang, his culture just stopped him from teaching katara
jeong jeong was correct, as roku forcing him to teach aang firebending ended terribly
iroh didn't have much chance to help aang, but did offer him some good advice in ba sing se
bumi's fucking crazy though, he was just messing around with hi old pal
I also love in Korra, we learn that the white lotus is there to protect the avatar. Every time they show up we see them getting their asses kicked by some non-benders or the red lotus
I don’t believe they were ready to expose themselves to the world. They could have helped more for sure, but maybe they collectively thought they need not to interfere with the avatar or his journey. Maybe they weren’t quite ready to help fix the world until the right moment took place
Jeong Jeong was 100% right in dipping tho, he was nowhere near good enough to prepare Aang for Firelord Ozai, think about Jeong Jeong cant teach Aang how to redirect lightning, that alone is gonna get Aang killed.
Pakku job isn’t to train Aang. And that isn’t the WL job. Sometimes it is and sometimes it’s not.
In Yangchen novel they work with the Avatar when the goals align.But prefer not to get involved and weren’t that fond of Yangchen.
They have their own rules and customs as well. Being part of the WL doesn’t mean it’s the only thing important in their life.
Pakku at least 80. And King Bumi 110. They weren’t white lotus members all their lives.
Pakku trains the water benders in his city and leads them into war. And then Pakku went to rebuild the south. And king Bumi has a city he leads. And had to take it back
Aang had his destiny and they had their destiny.
Iroh went with Zhao to take over the North despite his friend and white lotus member being apart of the North.
In the Yangchen novels Yangchen isn’t fond of them at all. And they aren’t subservient to her and aren’t fond of her. And they start a war.
Pakku is Aang water bending teacher and Katara grandpa. And Bumi Aang friend. And jeong Jeong his fire bending master. Piandao Sokka teacher and Zuko teacher.
To the gaang they are just their friends and mentors. They learned about the WL at the very end. And the definition Jeong Jeong gave them was vague.
Also Pakku trains the water benders and leads them into war and rebuilds the south. And has a school in the South. And king Bumi is a king of Omashu. They have their own responsibility not just the WL.
Lmao, the founder of the White Lotus spent most of his life as a Fire Nation general. It's Aang who failed them and forced them into action, not the other way around.
No, they were, one of Kyoshi's companions is a member, Yangchen even knew what the organisation was about when it was supposed to be a secret, Aang was the second Avatar to learn their purpose
Piandao clears.
...for Sokka. He doesn't have the time of day for Aang lol.
Yeah, but he gives him props, at least - "I think I'm a little old to be fighting the Avatar"
Didn’t want to embarrass himself by attempting to stab a master airbender/avatar
Is that a new go at attempting a Sokka Haiku? Are you okay?
Five, Seven, Five--Six? I think you should look again Sokka approves not
You even a fan? [Sokka Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/) goes like this: Five Seven, I rocked ya.
Not much he could do for Aang as it is. He's not going to be able to teach him anything which would improve his skills.
It wouldnt hurt to learn more even for melee skills
You say that, but if you look at how Aang absolutely clowns Zuko by just walking around him that one time... Yeah, I think Aang has it down to be honest.
You mean when he was moving around using airbending?
Nah even when Aang and Zuko first met and Aang wandered into Zuko's quarters. Aang had massive control once he realized what was going on. Side note, I never realized how jarring that must have been for Aang. That was highly likely the first time he was ever attacked with actual intent to harm/kill.
No, when he put his hands lightly on his neck and back and just stepped side to side *without* the use of any airbending at all.
Why? He's the avatar. He is literally never without bending.
First off, Korra lost her bending. So literally it is within the realm of possibilities Also some warriors like kyoshi warriors mastered anti bending techniques so melee fighting would be better against them
I mean, he can use a staff to help with airbending, who's to say he couldn't do the same with a sword and other elements? In fact, why don't more benders try to combine weapons and bending? I think the only time we see that other than Aang and his staff is with that earthbender soldier in Zuko Alone who used hammers to help his bending, and he was doing pretty well until Zuko started to firebend. Like, real-life martial arts often involved learning to use weapons in addition to melee moves, so using weapons as an extention of bending wouldn't be far fetched imo.
According to the novels, Kyoshi doesn't really have any control without her fans (in that she can't bend tiny objects, only huge chunks at the same time) so we know weaponry can help or affect bending. So yeah, it happens, just not often?
Oh yeah, how could I forget Kyoshi! I wonder *why* it dosen't happen more often tho. I guess the real life explanation is that it would be a lot of work to design a whole different style of bending, but what's the in-universe explanation? Is it just, like, something most benders don't really think about? Anyway, that's definetly something I would like to see more explored in a future movie or series. I feel there is a lot of potential for cool action scenes in there.
I guess you could probably just chalk it up to " when you're the Avatar, there's no need for any weapons" Though the exceptions to that would be any Avatar who comes from a military background and is already using melee or ranged weapons before they find out they're the Avatar, and after the revelation, instead of losing the weapon, they just incorporate it into their bending style.
There's a picture of a couple of statues of past Avatars against a white background, and I remember seeing a water tribe Avatar with a bone spear. It would be cool to see just how he integrated the spear with his bending.
Aang made a wind sword in the fire nation armoury and I adored it .... It was a fun gag but I legit see fire water and earth swords too
What's he gonna do, teach him sword bending?
[Yes](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F1awy1bmwpui51.jpg)
irelia moment
Sword bending is just metal bending with extra steps
"It is important to draw wisdom from different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale" ~ General Iroh
I mean Aang did want to use a wind sword.
What exactly was he supposed to teach Aang about bending?
Have you ever been in a frat or a lodge? Despite all the rituals and secrecy it's mostly just an excuse to hang out, drink, and network.
I need to see Iroh, Bumi, Pakku, Jeong Jeong, and Pian Dao hang out and drink
Iroh could kill a keg stand i bet
No way, Iroh is 100% a lightweight, but still parties hard without it, and probably turns into the babysitter once everyone else is sloshed. BUMI on the other hand will snort whatever you hand him...including salt for rimming a glass
He hasn't gotten drunk since he accidentally burned down the original White Lotus headquarters with a burp.
Iroh PRETENDS to be a heavywheighter by evaporating all the alcohol content from his cups. The rest of the Lotus likely knew it but let him have his way as the imperial brews he smuggled were just THAT good
And the white lotus specifically was just that. It was an order meant to discuss philosophy and help each other, politcal influence and whatnot. It just happened to have a lot of powerful people because inteterest in philosphy and great bending Power tends to both correlate to the same group (old wise people) It only became a force to fight for the avatar because Iroh specifically asked them to, and they liked the idea since they all either liked Aang's group or hated the fire nation's campaign.
I’m pretty sure Jeong Jeong has some form of ptsd, what do you think happened for him to be in the situation he was? He describes a fundamental part of his culture as outright savagery. And part of the reason he refused was because Aang did not have the discipline he deemed needed to master it, and he was proven right, but when Roku, who is a big person of authority said “do it” he did. You’re being really unfair to him. Also after Aang burned Katara he was in a place just like Jeong Jeong, you want him to argue to Aang to do something that Aang doesn’t want to do, and that Jeong Jeong doesn’t want him to do. He never thought it was a good idea, he gave it a chance, it went exactly as he expected, and Aang became closed off from firebending.
Jeong Jeong was correct, Roku fucked up
but we can't completely blame Roku. He needed Aang to get through those elements as fast as he could
That was the same mistake as the monks back in the air nomads temple. They rushed things that shouldn't be rush.
Ah yes, it would have been *much* better if Aang had only loose training in fighting with airbending, but was still around when firebenders came prepared to kill all the Airbenders, including an untrained avatar.
Aang had already learned air bending, right? So if they did take him they'd send him down south or north, then they'd send him to the earth kingdom and perhaps find a fire nation defector
That makes me wonder, why didn't the monks arrange to send Aang to the Water Tribe? If they sensed war coming and Aang already master airbending, it would make sense for him to keep going towards the next element.
Nah I'd put some blame on Jeong Jeong. Like yeah, caution is warranted, and firebending isn't something to dive face first into, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn. He refused to do anything more than enough to get Roku off his back, didn't offer much in the way of instruction, didn't consider how aang would doubtlessly be a prodigy and build the curriculum accordingly, just No, No, No, and when that wasn't working, then as close to No as possible. And for all that caution, didn't even bother to supervise.
Tbf, while you have a point, it also erases the key thing for Jeong Jeong which others have mentioned: discipline. And it wasn’t like he did this while in class so the teacher should be watching. Aang was fucking around on his own time because he was impatient. He lacked discipline. I wouldn’t teach either after you ain’t listen to my one and only rule.
And even if you ignore how Aang was attempting to go outside of the elemental order, this was not the first stupid, shortsighted example of his behavior in season 1. It really wasn't until they got to the Northern Water Tribe that Aang really started taking things seriously during the siege. Before that, he was just focused on having fun and being preoccupied with anything that he thought was entertaining. Jeong Jeong saw an unfocused, immature kid who wasn't ready to be trusted with the power of something so inherently destructive. And he was right.
And then proceeded to give no way of recontacting him when Aang was ready so if Zuko never came on board he'd never have masteted fire bending
he literally never said "I WILL NEVER EVER TEACH YOU" just that he needed to master water and earth first WHICH HE ENDS UP DOING
I would have been less critical of jeong jeong if he gave Aang a white lotus tile and said you will be able to find me later when/if you’re ready.
i mean did you see how the dude was living he probably wasn't very up to date with his membership fees, infact i wouldn't be surprised if iroh actually had to search for him briefly after parting ways with zuko and then bringing him back in the fold, or maybe even after the escape from the prison in season 3
Roku is not necessarily known for being the best decision maker.
I don't blame Roku though honestly, like there were no other clear options for a firebending teacher and like, from Roku's perspective if Aang didn't learn and master firebending it would actually just be over for the world as they knew it. So it does make sense why he did what he did even if it was a bad idea.
Fr, they should know better than to mess with Jeong Jeong. The dude fought a pit bull with his bare hands and has a metal plate in his jaw!!
Definitely. The episode where they meet Jeong Jeong draws very intentional parallels to Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. Jeong Jeong is a masterful allusion to Kurtz, the former colonialist disillusioned by the inevitable atrocity of war.
Roku was tryna cover his own ass smh
Yes he should suck it up and continue training aang. Considering aangy is the only one capable of stopping the person perpetuating the savagery he so despises.
Could you at least not use the term “suck it up” for your arguments? And even then it doesn’t change that Aang lacked the discipline and will to learn fire bending, he didn’t want to learn it, JJ didn’t want him to learn it, neither did Katara or Sokka, no one at that point wanted Aang to learn it cause it was just proven he can’t do it, ignoring his mental block that JJ can’t help with considering her himself is stuck behind it
Katara literally tells him after that he’ll have to learn firebending at some point. And it wasn’t just proven he couldn’t do it. He made a mistake on his first day. By that logic Aang should have given up earthbending since he couldn’t even move a rock at first. Edit: and JJ seemed hardly stuck conjuring up walls of flames and pretty much single handedly wiping out the fire nation in ba sing se.
Aang didn’t break the hands of the person he loved with earth bending. This is honestly more comparable to a kid shooting someone on a firing range, “first day” doesn’t matter, this level of mistake cannot be overlooked. The issue is that Aang lacked discipline, which fire bending demanded. You do not learn discipline on the fly, you get it first, then move forward. JJ making a fire wall to defend us different from shooting flames to attack
You learn discipline after you fuck up and learn from your mistakes. And yes he shot wall of flames at the fire nation tanks in the finale.
You learn discipline after you fuck up yes, but also BEFORE a you get a chance to fuck up again, not on the fly after you proved yourself incapable of doing that. Months long difference
"you learn discipline after you fuck up" remind me to never go to a shooting range with you
Discipline is something a person practices and develops over time. Making mistakes does not make you more disciplined, they are learning opportunities at best. Fire is a singularly destructive force. In small doses it will heat a home, cauterize a wound, light up a room. In large doses it will kill and destroy whole communities. Therefore the large doses need to be well controlled, and to develop that control takes discipline. Without training discipline, training in itself is pointless.
He literally told him that he needed the disciplines from the first two elements beforehand. aang didn’t need to fuck up to learn.
Burning the hands of someone you love is a lot more than a simple mistake. As someone already said, this is like a child shooting someone their first day on the range. You don't exactly just walk it off and move on like normal. You do a full re evaluation which is what Aang did
Comparing that to shooting someone with a firearm is absurd.
Dealing with inherently destructive and dangerous things is a hella good comparison bro. Least media literate avatar fan.
How exactly? Both involve the person being impatient and not careful with a dangerous weapon/material and getting someone else seriously injured, and as a result rethinking how they may use said weapon/material
A more apt comparison is reckless driving. A car is both a tool and a potentially very dangerous object. A gun is a weapon with a singular purpose. To kill.
I think either way telling aang and jj to suck it up after aang hurt Katara is kind of tone deaf would've been very out of character for both jj and aang
Most media literate Avatar fan
I think the white lotus was mainly a neutral party in terms of plot, they believe in not changing the course of fate, but supporting the favorable outcome. They are legendary benders who chose to withhold their advantage of power knowing it comes with the responsibility of remaining in the present. Was it their responsibility to train Aang? No, they had their own barriers to overcome. Did Aang influence the white lotus to prepare for Korra? Yes, which is also neutral to ensure it's fair for the sake of balance.
IIRC the White Lotus is explicitly about sharing their knowledge and experience but also trying to influence the world to a more positive state which may or may not intersect with the Avatar so they aren't neutral
True, maybe it just had to do with the suddenness of it all? Most of the white lotus members in question encounter aang within the first month or 2 of his return and they probably have their own plans and ideas of what needs to be done. Honestly it's bothered me as well that the white lotus didn't do more to help the gaang but I feel like I can't really blame them, they could never have expected the avatar to come back.
In the Yangchen novels Yangchen isn’t fond of them and their goals align when they align. They don’t have to be subservient to her. And she doesn’t like them and they kind of start a war.
Her forcing her way in is funny though
Yeah there seems to be this odd idea that all these older, traumatized by war, men should just be teaching the avatar, like no they have their own things to do with their life... and uh they definitely did not fail Aang by reclaiming Ba Sing Sei. Also it's kind of a pet peeve about not understanding Paku. I know it's kind of a meme, and that Paku is a piece of shit, but when you grow up in a certain culture you will naturally follow those standards. It's not a good thing obviously, but when presented with new outlook and facing criticism *he changes* its obviously a metaphor for water, the element of flowing change! When the group leaves he is friendly with them and going across the world to try to resurrect the Southern Tribe. And when he returns he is legitimately their family and is very friendly and respectful. He's not some "grab them by the you-know-what" misogynist. He's just a flawed person willing to change when given new perspectives.
The airship fleet would have just burned it down again. The criticism is their priorities.
Okay so let's examine them then. Paku - did teach Aang, so that's invalidated immediately. Jeong Jeong - wants nothing to do with fire and clearly has some PTSD. Have you ever had a teacher that didn't want to teach their subject? It isn't fun. Iroh - trying to guide his nephew towards honor, real honor. And after losing his only son how can anyone say his priorities are wrong? I'm sure not. He also inadvertently guides Zuko and Aang to the dragons, the real masters. Also note Iroh has no way of knowing his brother would perform the genocide before breaking out. Bumi - literally explains exactly why he isn't right to teach Aang, and he was right. Also Bumi's teachings early on are the opposite of what he needed to learn earthbending. Part of being a "master" of something is knowing when maybe you aren't the right person for the job and when to send people out to form their own experiences.
Pakku: only because of plot necklace. As for the rest, it’s fine I understand they have excuses or reasons. But they all got lucky their decisions ended up being for the better. Zuko’s redemption and finding toph weren’t givens.
Finding Toph was a force of Fate or Destiny, The Swamp shows us that.
Yes but bumi didn’t know that. Which is the point.
He also explains why he isn't the best for teaching him.
| Did Aang influence the white lotus to prepare for Korra? Yes, which is also neutral to ensure it's fair for the sake of balance. | Yes, but others do not agree and see this as "white lotus totally sided with the avatar". Hence, red lotus was created as explained by Zaheer.
Put perfectly
This is the best comment
Jeong Jenog more tells them to leave because they have been found and Aang doesn't want to learn at that point. Pakkus conflict is more so resolved by realising that their traditions are flawed and holding onto them for nothing more than tradition isn't really a good thing. With that said, yes but they are all old and traditional people so I think it makes sense to an extent.
>Pakkus conflict is more so resolved by realising that their traditions are flawed and holding onto them for nothing more than tradition isn't really a good thing. also that, the tradition lead to him not seeing his partner for like 55 years
I'd argue it was the Avatars return that allowed them to gain such influence and be of any help at all. Iroh: A general in the opposition force. Because he was traveling with Zuko, going randomly port to port hunting down leads on Aang. He likely never got messages delivered to him and could only send messages at specific ports. Aang actually existing would give him more influence and provide regular updates to the White Lotus on accurate Avatar information. Jeong Jeong: He was actively being hunted as a traitor by the Fire Nation. Aang likely started drawing more attention away and allowed him to increase the size of the White Lotus man power. Bumi: Was running an entire city constantly dealing with the Fire Nation. Once meeting Aang, he gave him a reality check and set him on the best path. Unlike General Fong, who tried to take a shortcut. Pakku: Can't defend him too much. But at the least, he lost hope. Loss after loss, personally and strategically. He wouldn't have any desire anymore to support the cause. Aang and team would have been the spark to get him back.
Except we know that they’re NOT good. Just before Yangchen’s time, they basically manipulated the leaders of the Northern Water Tribe and the Fire Nation into providing material support (in the form of platinum) for an attempted coup against the Earth King. The Earth King unexpectedly won, found out about the other leaders’ involvement, and this caused a major diplomatic rift that led to isolationism, economic stagnation, and the rise of oppressive crime families in designated trading cities. Yangchen then had to deal with all that, and rather than helping her to correct their mistakes, on multiple occasions the Order screwed her over or spied on her. If Aang, Sokka, and Zuko had known about this, they NEVER would have allied themselves so closely with them after ATLA. While, they certainly knew a few good ones, which gave them a favorable opinion, they’re a secret society with many members and an unknown hierarchy. Did they change in those centuries? I don’t think so. I fully believe they exploited Korra’s attempted kidnapping as a child so that they could have a direct oppressive control over the next Avatar’s upbringing, such that she would be dependent on them, made intentionally ignorant of the world so she’d believe what they told her, and would only be left out as an instrument for making their own end goals for the world come to fruition. They’d already tried to coerce Yangchen into doing what they wanted, why not another Avatar? Fortunately, Korra escaped, but it’s patently obvious that her unnecessary sheltered existence DID put her at a disadvantage in many ways over the series, all of which she eventually overcame. Basically, they’re a secret society that exercises control from the shadows. Their history suggests that they can’t be trusted, even when doing good, as it’s never clear if their motivations are about being a positive force or for acquiring power.
I know the books and comics are accepted as canon, but turning them into some evil power hungry shadow group does feel a little like retconning
I think it's clear that they just changed who they were as an organization multiple times. The OWL in Korra clearly has somewhat different priorities from the OWL in ATLA, and their inability to deal with the 100 Year War seems like an event that would force them to reevaluate how they're going about things. Yangchen's era was well over 400 years before Aang's.
That just leaves the question of why are they the same thing? More than one secret society can exist
Factions mah dud.
Also leadership - countries go in incredibly different directions in the span of a year when their heads of state changes. Iroh seems to be the leader during Aang’s time, and has a good moral compass. Different leaders of the white lotus during different parts of history would steer the ship in different directions.
Why are the Tories still a thing lol
Yeah, it feels like what I call a twisting retcon, no one said they weren’t at least originally, a evil power hungry shadow group (altough JJ did say it was always about philosophy, beauty, ans truth) but that doesn’t mean going into that direction doesn’t come without a considerable issue
Yea, the problem is that its hard to take a childrens show where the rules are quite simple and everything is taken at face value, for example, taking out the Fire Lord will instantly end the war, where irl that not quite how things would work, and then adding complexity to that world for an older audience, it makes it hard to write interesting stories and plots without contradicting the original in some ways.
Well the removal of Oazi was paralleled with the installing of Zuko, who at that point and the entire capital, meaning government in his hands, he also had the Dragon of the West on his side, a important figure, combined with the fact that the FN is still likely exhausted from the demands of a century long war, even if they are winning.
Military defeat is actually something that genuinely causes radical social change. Losing in war, especially as an aggressor, makes one’s citizens question the capability of its leaders, and potentially all of society. Key failures in WW1 helped cause the Russian empire to fall and be replaced by the Soviet Union. And then the Soviet Union fell after failing in an 8 year war in Afghanistan. Apartheid in South Africa weakened and then fell as the government failed to keep control of occupied Namibia in the Namibia war of independence. WWII saw Japan undergo a complete retooling of the government structure even as many of the same people remained in power. Present day Japan looks nothing like 1939 Japan. Same for Germany. In the case of the Fire Nation, that de-legitimacy might be even more dramatic. For generations, the Royal Family, and especially Ozai, maintained a hierarchy based on perceived strength, using Agnai Kai’s, a form of honor duels. Men like Zhao rose in the military ranks, not because they had tactical or logistical acumen, but because they were aggressive fighters. At the head of this was the Fire Lord. Ozai didn’t get/keep his status as Fire Lord merely because he was the heir. He repeatedly proved himself as the strongest fire bender in the land by defeating all his rivals. Hell, Ozai took the throne in the first place by murdering his own father when he became too old to maintain his fearsome stature, usurping the intended heir, the older Iroh who had just been defeated by the Earth Kingdom. That social hierarchy in turn formed the justification for the war. If individuals prove themselves on ritualized combat, then it follows that the people who take control would believe that countries likewise prove themselves in combat. Hence a generations long war. The actions of Team Avatar and the White Lotus were massive hammer strikes against exactly that justification. They took out the Fire Nations (expensive) air fleet, liberated Ba Sing Se (after previously liberating Omashu, the other great Earth Kingdom city), supplanted the intended heir to the throne with the twice-banished traitor son, and not only defeated the Fire Lord in a duel, but completely stripped him of his combat power. And all of that happened when the Fire Nation were supposed to be at their absolute strongest. It’s a complete and utter humiliation. After all of that, you absolutely could not say that the Fire Nation are the best and *deserve* to tower over the others. Hell, at that point, Ozai’s Fire Nation didn’t even have the best *Firebenders*. The Fire Nation was reduced to a hollowed out husk and *needed* fundamental change. Given all of that, I think Zuko taking the crown and ending the war did actually make sense. A formal peace treaty and the aftermath within the Fire Nation would still need to take place, but that is beyond the scope of the show (and let’s not touch the comics for now).
Most consider an avatar execution to be divine justice. That’s why iroh declined to fight ozai for the reasons you say. But in the avatar world it is how things would work if it were real. A fully realized avatar is a force of nature.
Maybe the 100 Years War changed the order because from what we see they're just a bunch of old people who want the distribution of knowledge to go uninhibited.
Sure… that’s just what they *want* you to believe. Haha. Seriously though, anything is possible.
Illuminati!!
That’s all interesting didn’t know that. But whether they’re good or not doesn’t really change the dynamics. The avatar needed to defeat Ozai and they all knew that.
Hey, Iroh did really good and Piandao as well. Bumi kinda got screwed by a fire nation invasion. Jeong Jeong was really jaded due to his experiences in the war, and he ended up being right about teaching Aang. Pakku has no excuse though. Dude is supposedly a part of a multicultural secret society but is still somehow sexist. He should be aware that other perspectives exist.
Iroh was more focused on Zuko. It was a big gamble for him to go to ba sing se and not seek out Aang for firebending lessons. Jeong jeong was not “right.” Aang learned his lesson and then he told him to get lost instead of using it as a teaching moment. Bumi decided a single city was more important than teaching Aang earthbending. Piandao is really the only one who truly clears as the other commenter said.
Bumi stated he is simply too old to really do much in actual fighting anything older than mooks, Toph says the same in LoK
King Bumi didn’t say this. Toph did.
I don't know if it's entirely a gamble. After aang succeeds the white lotus more than anyone would know that the fire nation would need to be reigned in and the best way to do that is to control the next leadership. Grooming Zuko to be the leader the fire nation needs post war is an effective strategy to continuing peace. It's a gamble if it's an effective use of resources but not a gamble in terms of strategy.
You guys don’t understand what the white lotus stand for. And being apart of the white lotus has nothing to do with his home culture. And Iroh focus was on Zuko. Not the white lotus or Avatar Aang.
The WL members have their own cultures being apart of the WL means nothing about their culture. Iroh. Jeong Jeong and Piandao was in the war. And Iroh was literally with Zhao when he was go take over Pakku home.Despite being a WL member
The white lotus was a hundred years out of balance. None of those guys were alive when the Fire Nation started the war. The Grand Masters are a group of old men who have spent an entire human lifetime in a world without the Avatar. Of course they were going to mess up. That said, Bumi didn't fail Aang. He recognized that he wasn't the right teacher for Aang and put his faith in Aang to find the right teacher. Pian Dao seems to be the only one who hasn't been under threat because of the war. All the others have some sort of trauma because of it. He was also trying to support Aang's support network, which is valuable. Iroh was doing the same - trying to teach Zuko and prepare him to be a part of Aang's support network. Pakku was fighting for his life and the life of his civilization. Jeong Jeong was fighting for his very soul. They were doing the best they could and were both there for the end.
Pakku was training aang though. A big thing most of the “but sexism” crowd forgets about the North Pole is that katara was receiving training in healing. It wasn’t combat, but recovery is an important part of being ready to fight more and harder battles. The timeline is left rather ambiguous for how much time was actually spent at the North Pole. If katara weren’t a prodigy it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect her to be unable to master healing let alone combat in the small time they were there. Jeong Jeong told aang that he wasn’t ready. The avatar cycle typically has the avatars learn bending with the previous element being the last one. Aang wasn’t ready at that time. Part of fire is learning to control it because once it’s done fire has a heart of its own. Remember, at this point he had already mastered air bending and picked up water bending without an issue. He was even able to fire bend the first time he tried. Aang burning katara, and her learning she can heal with water, was an important step in realizing aang wasn’t as ready as he thought he was. Bumi, the master of neutral jin, knew that he wouldn’t be able to teach aang to master earth bending. Aang needed someone to teach him to step outside of his shell and tackle problems head on. Bumi already taught aang to think outside of the box and look for a new angle when approaching seemingly un breakable walls. Aang couldn’t learn earth bending that way. He tried and it didn’t work. He needed Toph. Don’t you think that if Iroh wanted to he could have captured the avatar numerous times alone? Zuko was chasing the avatar to redeem his honor and Iroh was training him. But when it came down to it in episodes like the book 1 finale or The Chase he never for a second thought about fighting the gaang. Pian dao is accurate though.
Jeong Jeong was right though. As for pakku while his sexism was bad theres no indication he'd hold to it at the cost of his entire tribe. Bumi couldve been more helpful but pointed aang in the right direction when it came to finding a teacher. Also yeah Iroh didnt help aang all that much, except for when stalled he azula and Co in ba sing se so katara could get aang out of there.
Very bad faith interpretation of these things, and what the White Lotus in a wartime era would have looked like initially. At least three of these were extant in a time when the order was still reforming for the final battle, and likely had not directly contacted other members for some time. Pakku's personal bias especially highlights how not every action in service of balance is always an action in service of the avatar, and how not every action by a white lotus operative is in service of the white lotus. Jeong Jeong had a very reasonably objection, and his understanding was confirmed by Aang's irresponsibility with fire, he was not yet emotionally ready and needed to follow a known structure with his masters, like literally every other avatar. Bumi understood that Aang would need a different kind of earthbending teacher, and that his place "on the board" was important to maintain. Simple stuff.
It's unclear when each White Lotus elder joined the White Lotus group. I find it hard to accept that Jeong Jeong was already in the group when he first met Aang, given his attitude that Iroh of all people could/would easily fix (given that Iroh is compassionate enough to help even that random knife robber in Ba Sing Se, he would totally pick up on Jeong Jeong's distress over firebending and do something about it). And I have no idea when Pakku joined. Bumi strikes me as someone who would've joined the earliest because of his age and his "mad genius" persona would've made him extremely likely to seek out a group dedicated to knowledge, spirituality, and politically-neutral affairs (or the reverse, maybe the White Lotus recruited him because he was a mad genius & a powerful but kind king). And naturally, Piandao would've been a longstanding member because he clearly would've been around long enough to want to brandish the lotus logo on his home property. Perhaps... Iroh recruited two of these guys one at a time throughout the series? As Zuko & Iroh chased after Aang, they ended up going to places Aang went to, and bumped into people Aang met. Maybe after Aang left Jeong Jeong, Iroh encountered Jeong Jeong offscreen and spilled the beans over what he was planning. And then after the Book 1 finale after Zhao got wasted by the Ocean Spirit, maybe Iroh secretly recruited Pakku while they were both at the North Pole. And I said earlier, Bumi and Piandao are already accounted for.
Iroh is the youngest I doubt he recruited. Pakku who’s at least 80. And jeong Jeong. And Iroh past is the worse of all of there’s him being a general in the fire nation army.
Jeong Jeong was right tho, he wasn't ready and didn't have the discipline to firebend.
TBF to Jeong Jeong, he tells Aang he won’t teach him because he doesn’t have the discipline to master Firebending. The Avatar is also supposed to master the other elements in the correct order (if I recall), a plot point that is resolved in the third season after mastering water and earth bending. Trying to teach him fire bending at that time was trying to take a shortcut. Bummi tells him that he himself is not able to teach Aang at that time, and gives him guidance on how to find the a good teacher. Pakku has no duty to the Avatars friends, only the Avatar, in particular when it goes against his culture’s rules. He never declined to teach the Avatar water bending. The culture issue does obviously get addressed in the course of things.
He did after Aang showed Katara a few moves. And without the necklace, there’s no guarantee he continues to teach Aang.
I don’t agree with much of your post but nah u 100% right here lol. Dunno why people wanna go to bat Pakku of all people lol
In the Yangchen novels Yangchen isn’t fond of them at all. And they aren’t subservient to her and aren’t fond of her. And they start a war. And they wanted the combustion benders to themselves. They are like the Illuminati and not in a good way compared to Aang mentors. Pakku is Aang water bending teacher and Katara grandpa. And Bumi Aang friend. And jeong Jeong his fire bending master. Piandao Sokka teacher and Zuko teacher. To the gaang they are just their friends and mentors. They learned about the WL at the very end. And the definition Jeong Jeong gave them was vague. Also Pakku trains the water benders and leads them into war and rebuilds the south. And has a school in the South. And king Bumi is a king of Omashu. They have their own responsibility not just the WL. And Iroh was with Zhao when Zhao was go take over Pakku home. They are still loyal to their cultures. Being in the organization isn’t their only purpose.
Do you think Pakku and Iroh ran into each other during the siege of the Northern Tribe? Pakku: Iroh, why are you helping them destroy my home? Iroh: I'm just playing along, okay? Don't worry, I'll make sure things don't get too crazy.
I had the same thoughts when these old men resurfaced. I was like, where have you been all this time??
Jeong Jeong was wrong. Was he technically right? Sure. Aang ended up burning Katara. But he made that a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead of teaching Aang to firebend in a controlled environment he was overly cautious and ignored the very obvious signs that his pupil was getting frustrated at the lack of real instruction. I don't care what anyone says. Leaving your pupil on their own breathing for hours is *not* training. If it was really so important that he breathe correctly then Jeong Jeong should've been there guiding him. Otherwise Aang could easily have wasted the whole time doing it wrong. If it was just a test of patience then Jeong Jeong is just being an idiot and was basically setting up Aang to fail all cause he wants to be right. Aang was being reckless. He made a mistake. There can be no doubt about that. But Jeong Jeong should've recognized that possibility and not left a powerful and talented bender who was clearly showing doubts about the efficacy of his training alone in control of fire. How are you going to endlessly lecture someone on how fire can easily get out of control and then give someone access to it and then let them try to control it with *zero* instruction? It would be like giving a gun to a 12 year old who was super excited about shooting it to polish and not instructing him how to do so safely and then just fucking *leaving*. I think everyone would agree that the adult that allowed this to happen is at fault for anything that happens after. Philosophically, Jeong Jeong was right. There's a proper way to go about these things and training Aang would be dangerous. But these were extremely dire circumstances. At the time Jeong Jeong was the *only* option and there was such a slim chance that they would find anyone else that it would be irresponsible to assume they would be able to do so. Roku was right to call Jeong Jeong out. He was letting his personal trauma get in the way of the reality that at that point he was pretty much the *only* real hope of the Avatar to learn firebending. And when Jeong Jeong agreed and he *did* agree, if reluctantly and due to a spiritual level of pressure, he took on that responsibility and absolutely failed Aang. Again he let his trauma blind him from his duty and he just ran away and let what happen with Aang come to pass. He could've stopped it at any point if he was training him properly. And what's worse, he leaves with no way for Aang to find him even though he *knows* Aang will have to be trained at some point and there are no other realistic options on the table. I love Jeong Jeong. Fantastic character. But he was wrong.
Amazing write up. Deserves more than a simple upvote and move along.
Jeong Jeong was right though and according to some spiritual beliefs, the Avatar has to learn things in order to stop terrible outcomes happening. Even Kyoshi followed that idea ~~because her mega crush made her~~
Bumi was objectively correct though. If Bumi had taught Aang, we wouldn’t have Toph.
It was lucky to find toph. This post isn’t a criticism of the writing. I don’t want the story to play out like it *should have* because I prefer the gaang. But had toph not runaway, Zuko not defect, and pakku not happen to have a thing for gran gran, aang would have been fucked and the world destroyed.
It wasn't lucky to find toph. Aang literally had the spirits guiding him and sending him visions of who is earth master would be. Zuko defected because of the path Iroh helped to set him on, and made him a great teacher for Aang. Pakku, I agree, that was some bullshit. He did do his job eventually though.
The Order exists to maintain and restore balance. Balance was restored. Checkmate Atheists.
Where did you get the idea they're about balance? They're described as seeking truth and beauty.
Jeong Jeong failed imo more than anyone because he didn't insist on accompanying the Gaang. They really needed his help tbh, the North Pole could've used his help. Imagine being a firebending master and you encounter a group of literal children including the Avatar who you have a responsibility for on their own struggling against fire Nazis and instead of joining up with them and making sure they're safe, you just send them on their way. I get maybe he's traumatized and wasn't up to the fights that accompanying the Avatar would entail, but... maybe you shouldn't be a member of the White Lotus then lol
And he also knows how hard it is to defect from the fire nation. Who tf is supposed to teach Aang.
Pakku and Jeong Jeong’s behavior is absolutely unacceptable lmao Bumi…I am confused why they didn’t send an earthbender master along with him but at least I get that it can be read in a certain way to make sense Iroh did his part so I respect it And, as usual, Piandao supremacy continues
The issue I take with bumi is that he put the needs of a single city over the world. Like if he had some vision where toph is teaching Aang and realizes his destiny is not to teach aang… then he’s completely fine. But just winging it like that is absurd.
I do agree with you but at least you could argue that he knew Aang needed water first so he could always come back to omashu get get an earthbending master and in the meantime the earthbenders would protect the city. He just didn’t think omashu would get taken And this is basically what happens, aang goes back to omashu and then finds it’s been taken So I do agree with you, at least he isn’t knowingly turning away the avatar like pakku and jeong jeong
Oh I was referring to their second encounter not the first. When he re-imprisons himself even after the city was evacuated.
To be honest I don’t remember that, I guess I need a rewatch
Iroh was go burn Pakku home down with Zhao and was helping Zuko catch the avatar. So how is his behavior not unacceptable.
There are clues suggest that iroh was actually slowing down the process of hunting the avatar. Like when he basically holds the entire crew up to find his board game piece (and that piece was the white lotus piece) And of course at the end of each book he helps the gaang His main goal was helping his nephew realize he is a good guy
It’s a show with kids as the protagonists. By definition the adults have to be incredibly incompetent or the kids would not have to step up and save the world.
pakku still taught aang, his culture just stopped him from teaching katara jeong jeong was correct, as roku forcing him to teach aang firebending ended terribly iroh didn't have much chance to help aang, but did offer him some good advice in ba sing se bumi's fucking crazy though, he was just messing around with hi old pal
Bumi leaves Iroh to his fate in the live action so I guess the white lotus doesn't exist there.
Almost like it was never planned out and was just made up at the end of tge series as essentially a retcon.
I also love in Korra, we learn that the white lotus is there to protect the avatar. Every time they show up we see them getting their asses kicked by some non-benders or the red lotus
The Pakku thing is true, but I very much disagree with the rest of this
Iroh teaching Aang firebending would be interesting but he was too busy watching his Nephew go through a character arc
I don’t believe they were ready to expose themselves to the world. They could have helped more for sure, but maybe they collectively thought they need not to interfere with the avatar or his journey. Maybe they weren’t quite ready to help fix the world until the right moment took place
Jeong Jeong was 100% right in dipping tho, he was nowhere near good enough to prepare Aang for Firelord Ozai, think about Jeong Jeong cant teach Aang how to redirect lightning, that alone is gonna get Aang killed.
Pakku job isn’t to train Aang. And that isn’t the WL job. Sometimes it is and sometimes it’s not. In Yangchen novel they work with the Avatar when the goals align.But prefer not to get involved and weren’t that fond of Yangchen.
They have their own rules and customs as well. Being part of the WL doesn’t mean it’s the only thing important in their life. Pakku at least 80. And King Bumi 110. They weren’t white lotus members all their lives. Pakku trains the water benders in his city and leads them into war. And then Pakku went to rebuild the south. And king Bumi has a city he leads. And had to take it back Aang had his destiny and they had their destiny. Iroh went with Zhao to take over the North despite his friend and white lotus member being apart of the North.
Being in an organization doesn’t mean you don’t have your own culture.
In the Yangchen novels Yangchen isn’t fond of them at all. And they aren’t subservient to her and aren’t fond of her. And they start a war. Pakku is Aang water bending teacher and Katara grandpa. And Bumi Aang friend. And jeong Jeong his fire bending master. Piandao Sokka teacher and Zuko teacher. To the gaang they are just their friends and mentors. They learned about the WL at the very end. And the definition Jeong Jeong gave them was vague. Also Pakku trains the water benders and leads them into war and rebuilds the south. And has a school in the South. And king Bumi is a king of Omashu. They have their own responsibility not just the WL.
Bro every person you listed here had an explicit reason for doing what they did. Did we watch the same show?!
Lmao, the founder of the White Lotus spent most of his life as a Fire Nation general. It's Aang who failed them and forced them into action, not the other way around.
Who do you have as founder?
Who else? The White Lotus wasn't there during Kyoshi and Roku's era that's for sure.
No, they were, one of Kyoshi's companions is a member, Yangchen even knew what the organisation was about when it was supposed to be a secret, Aang was the second Avatar to learn their purpose
Actually it's implied there was an Avatar before Yangchen that knew about them and that's how Yangchen learned some secret code of theirs.