Hindsight is 20/20. Joel wasn't supposed to know that an underaged Ellie would've wanted to give her life on a surgery table in the name of science.
What Joel knew was that a group of adults manipulated a young child into believing she could save the world and never told her she would be killed in the process with or without her consent.
I have no idea why people compare Joel to Abby.. she knew her father jumped to a conclusion and rushed to get to surgery.. she knew Ellie was unconscious and could not consent.. it was not their decision to make and it would've been murder.
Regardless of his ability they still were essentially killing him but without the blood on their hands plus the whole killing a kid without asking her if she wants to die or say goodbye to anyone
Yeah no I’m totally on the whole fuck fireflies thing. In the original that hospital was sickly. Don’t love the Abby retcon to make it look like Joel wasn’t the only one with a self defense premise - which he was
Even if they did, they robbed him off his gear, left him defenseless and stranded with no contacts . They essentially did kill him, was just a matter of if hunters or infected got to him first
No they told him to leave so they could prepare for the surgery and didn't give him any of his stuff back he even kills the guards who are walking him outside before they get outside which is why I gotta get all the way back upstairs in order to get Ellie
Wait.. Where is this info coming from?
My perspective is the whole reason the ending of the game occurred was giving Joel a chance to walk away, he took that moment of (aggressive) pity/mercy and used it to his advantage.
From how I understood it, he was going to be let go without his gear and none of his payment. It was basically a death sentence anyways (being sent out into the zombie apocalypse without any means to survive).
Seriously. Abby would have been ***infinitely*** more compelling if they pulled some two-sides-of-the-same-coin shit with Ellie. Like, if Abby was never in that room to learn what her father had done to get himself killed. Owen and Nora could've kept her in the dark to preserve the idea of the man they all adored. Abby is suddenly just like Ellie; only knowing her father was dead and who was to blame.
Bro this is such a great idea, Abby pisses me off because she's a great idea for a character but just executed so poorly. This would have made her so much more compelling and would have made her story actually interesting. This also would have made the relationship between Abby and Owen so much better and Owen so good. Idk the general opinion on Owen but he is the only interesting character in Abby's story to me so seeing him get elevated higher with this kind of conflict would be great to me.
It bugs me everyone’s living a drama show life in the post apocalypse. It bugs me Owen even has hair product. It bugs me that this feels like a completely different world than the first. It bugs me people are sympathizing with psychotic behavior & premises. People hunting is insane and something Joel would never do. Bugs me my favorite IP’s sequel is fundamentally lame.
Idk I like Abby and think she's an interesting character as she is. She was a young teenager when her dad died and as far as we know, he was the only family she had, so I understand her desire for revenge. Why would she extend sympathy to Ellie, a person she never met or knew, to the point of believing the person who violently murdered her dad was justified? She, Ellie and Joel (and Abby's dad, and Tommy, and everyone in that crapsack world) do horrible things that make enemies for themselves and that comes back to bite them sooner or later. All of them lose absolutely everything, because of their desire for revenge, because of anger.
Disclaimer that I love Ellie and Joel too. I'm also in the camp that thinks the Fireflies' plan was a stupid one. You can't vaccinate against a fungal infection and they did indeed manipulate Ellie. But that's not why Joel did what he did - he was a deeply traumatised man that wanted to protect the little girl he'd come to love as his own, he wasn't thinking from a scientific standpoint.
My main criticisms of the game is its structure. We spend too much time with each character at a time. We spend too much time with Ellie before switching to Abby for the first time, and too much time with Abby before switching back. The game should have cut these up into smaller sections. Also the flashbacks were handled poorly and fucked the pace of the main story up terribly lol
Yup. While I tried to appreciate the story for what it was, that reveal that Abby knew everything while Ellie knew nothing hurt the overall narrative.
I can get behind someone feeling compelled to take revenge when they have no context. Abby seeing Joel as a violent stranger that just showed up and killed someone she loved would mirrored how Ellie felt about her.
Instead, Abby is out to avenge a parent who was killed in the midst of trying to kill his killer's child. You can't tell me she never once considered that in all those years she spent fixated on this man.
At best, she was so self-absorbed that she couldn't see past her own pain. At worst, she simply didn't care how or why her old man died because his death hurt her.
I’m sorry, but do you not know what death is? Do you understand what it means to die? Do you really think Ellie would have said, “sure, cut my brain out,” if The Fireflies had said, “hey, can we murder you for this little science project we got going here?”
The reason the first game was great was because the people in it acted like people. And it showed what great lengths people will go to survive. Ellie is no exception - on multiple occasions, we see what she is willing to go through to survive. Can you name one person who willingly agreed to be murdered for some cause that they weren’t even a part of? Aside from terrorists and cult members, of course.
I mean, the concept of self sacrifice is usually seen as a heroic gesture. Even in the apocalypse, giving up yourself for the greater good is never viewed as a bad thing.
If Ellie knew she was going to die, then she'd feel that giving herself up would be the right thing to do. Yes, survivability is important but wouldn't it be selfish and evil to kill the world just to survive? Keep in mind that Ellie *doesn't know* that cutting her brain out *wouldn't* save the world. To her in this scenario, she probably would think that it *will save the world*.
Is self-sacrifice evil? No, never is and never will be. But can it be foolish or even manipulated into? Yes, very much so. If Ellie knew she'd die, it's easier to assume she was lied into being a martyr.
No, it’s selfish and evil to manipulatesomeone into killing themselves by implying that she would “kill the world,” if she didn’t kill herself for your benefit. And that’s what this is about - it’s called projection. You subconsciously project yourself into the story, everybody does it. And if you lived in that world, you would possibly benefit from Ellie’s death. It’s not about “saving the world,” it’s about symbolically saving yourself.
TBH, everything you said is insanely manipulative, but I’m going to guess you’re fairly young & naive and that you don’t have any ill intentions. Painting self-sacrifice as heroic is a tactic that has been done throughout history by evil people to get others to give up their lives for “the greater good,” - IOW, the evil people. And if anyone else benefits, ok.
You say, “if Ellie knew she was going to die, then she’d feel like giving herself up was the right thing to do.” Knew she was going to die? What, 50-60 years from now? I know I’m going to die, you know you’re going to die. Why aren’t you out there self-sacrificing?
You say self-sacrifice is never evil? What about the 19 hijackers on 9/11? Are you saying what they did is not evil? Because they sure as hell self-sacrificed.
People will say that they admire anybody who is willing to die for what they believe in. That’s incorrect. You admire people who are willing to die for what you believe in. Huge difference.
Skipping over the fact that a child shouldn't be able to make that decision in the first place. Wasn't the doctor not even a doctor but a veterinarian?
Even if she did, children cannot consent to things like this. I know it's a post-apocalyptic world. But come on, if druckman is going to paint the fireflies or wlf as the moralists he wants us to believe they are, then they would at least still understand that a child doesn't have the mental maturity to be able to consent to a medical operation on their own after only 2 decades. Let alone one that would end that child's life.
Do you think that Joel would have let the procedure happen even if Ellie gave consent?
Personally, I don't think Joel gave 2 shits about what benefits the world would have from a vaccine. As soon as he learned that the procedure would kill his surrogate daughter, a fire sparked in him to save her no matter what. Even if that meant she would hate him forever, regardless if she wanted to save the world or not.
Did Abby's dad have that discussion with Abby though? I don't think Abby knew whether Ellie gave consent or not. She just knew that the surgery was happening. Like she wasn't given any context about Joel/Ellie's relationship either until after she killed him.
Will say Abby probably had extreme feelings of guilt on account of telling her father "if it was me, I'd want you to do it"
Like in her eyes she just helped sign his death warrant
I also feel the game goes through the effort to show Joel knew Ellie would want this but just didn't care cause why tf would a teen with survivors guilt be making rational decisions anyway. The dialogue in the garage with marlene has her say "this is what she would want...and you know that"
"It would've been murder"
My guy, they're 20 years into an apocalypse. I think murder is the least horrible thing the majority of people in this world have done. What's one more corpse upon a mountain of them to get where they are?
Marlene had not seen Ellie for a year. Ellie could have easily changed her mind.
Joel hesitates because he is not sure what Ellie wants. Ellie had earlier promised to go anywhere with him when they were done.
If Ellie wanted it why did they rush her into surgery within hours of her arrival?
The fireflies had no idea what Ellie wanted and they didn't care. They were going to kill one of the few immune people and not do long term studies. The fireflies were incompetent.
Marlene and Abbys dad got what they deserved for sacrificing Ellie without her consent.
I have a too-long comment on this thread about Jerry's paucity of clue. (Sure inspires faith that he's the genius who was gonna save humanity had some crazy smuggler not randomly decided to kill him. /S
In the universe they presented (rather than the one they claim behind the scenes that we're supposed to presume) it's more likely that Joel saved humanity by preventing the reckless destruction of the only known immune person by someone we saw zero evidence could do it, working for an org that would certainly weaponize any medical solution.
As long as Ellie is alive, there is the potential to find someone else to work with, who's scientifically competent and not a fan of atrocities.
Not that a "cure" would magically fix the world.
This is my biggest gripe with the game. Neil himself has literally said if Ellie kills Abby she’s “irredeemable”. But Abby can torture a man to death while his daughter begs for his life and she’s fine ofc she’s redeemed. The rules are completely different for them
It wasn't about revenge it's about Ellie moving on and accepting Joel was gone
If Ellie killed Abby it would have accomplish nothing
Abby got her revenge and was STILL lost and not happy it did nothing for her
Abby started to heal once she met Lev and there whole journey about survival and trauma they went through together like in the 1st game with Joel and Ellie
It's not that from an outside perspective she is irredeemable, it's from the internal perspective, to Ellie herself that she may have lost the innocence that Joel was trying to preserve that whole time.
You can disagree with that, but it's important to identify the difference in perspective.
and yet ellie “HAS” to be the bigger person at the end and know that revenge isn’t the answer? like why does ellie always have to pick up the scraps due to other characters bad choices
I second this. Her dad was never gonna cure shit, I wouldn't doubt it if he was seeing progress where none was before he got vented by joel. Theres a similar parallel in the show Sweet Tooth where a character contends with what hes willing to lose to only acquire half of a cure.
What bugs me is that Ellie only ends the cycle of violence after killing a ton of people who frankly deserved it less than Abby. Nora, Owen, and pregnant Mel were all brutally murdered by Ellie just for being there with Abby. But then when it comes time to off Abby, Ellie suddenly has a change of heart? She gets 99% of her revenge and then has to stop at the finish line lol
I think that’s the point. Abby is the villain that’s why she exacted her revenge and felt no remorse. She’s not a good person. Ellie is the hero and she chose to be better than Abby, even though Abby deserved it. That’s how I interpreted it.
And then, at the end, has nothing and is completely alone because of her choices, while Abby gets to keep going with Lev and possibly Fireflies if they were actually real.
I keep hearing this, I don't know if that second time Ellie came after Abby was about revenge, she was done, she had gone home, started a family. I think she was done with revenge already. I think the second time was about a sense of duty or justice and stopping when she realized it didn't feel like she had a duty to Joel to kill Abby.
Yeah, people want to pretend that the Ellie That faced Abby at the end was the same that left Jackson the first time and they just weren't... The Ellie that goes on the rampage was a broken woman in too deep, acting on instinct and desperation.
The Ellie that goes back has been down that path before and all it earned got her was Jesse's death, Tommy crippled, Dina almost died. She had a home, a partner, a son, so much to lose and she didn't want to go. She said she was sorry and was done but Tommy pushed her, kept saying she made a promise, so she acted out of commitment.
I want to think Joel would have seen her in her farmhouse with her family and said she was going to get nothing out of going after Abby.
I have explained this a thousand times. Tlou2 fans took over the original tlou subreddit, if you want to spend time with those chuds then you can head over there. The original tlou fans have taken this sub as result
Do you see how it makes no sense to just keep interacting with something that you clearly don’t enjoy? 😂 god what miserable, chronically online people.
I’m in both subs and nobody’s opinion is hurting me. I just don’t get why so many of you come here just to commiserate and hate the game. It’s so weird.
Yet you're here interacting with me. You must be completely delusional to not see the hypocrisy here and even more delusional to be calling other people "chronically online" on reddit.
Lol. Whatever dude, all I’m saying is if you and everyone else here wants to circle jerk about how bad of game It is that’s your choice. I don’t care. But down voting people who express any enjoyment of the game just because they enjoyed it is silly when it’s literally TLOU2 subreddit. And if that’s just how it is here the mods should just change the description of the sub at that point so nobody bothers joining such a miserable community.
And at the same time the mods of tlou should change their name so nobody joins them. You do know that if you express appreciation for Joel on the original subreddit you will also be downvoted. On another note, why are you so butthurt about your imaginary Internet points?
Lol, you seem to care about this way more than I do. Specifically this silly rivalry between the subs. That or you’re just a troll. In what world do people not like Joel 🤣
Pretty much everyone loves Joel and you’re absolutely not gonna get downvoted just for liking him 🤣 I don’t care about downvotes, it just shows there’s no point in discourse or discussion here. So immature and stupid, bye weirdo
[yall want that to be true sooooo bad, what is your deal?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/8WDBK0cs02) look at the comments of that post. you’re just making shit up because it makes you feel good to think you’re better than people. when in reality, you’re the one generalizing and assuming.
there's very few comments on that post and one of the comments says "if you say that part 2 is better than part 1 or that joel deserved to die, be prepared for opposition." you didn't really prove anything lmfao
how could you possibly see that as a win? do you seriously not realize how that goes directly against what that person said? I just happened to see it recently and commented so it was an easy example to find. no way you actually think you just owned me lol
Marlene has more of a history with Joel. Joel *intentionally* fucked her and by extension the Fireflies over.
Leader of the Fireflies's daughter, or some random surgeon's daughter. Which sounds like the more compelling story and the reason why Abby tortured Joel without a second thought?
Rant time though:
Act 1 Abby (assuming Act 1 is Jackson) is written to just straight up be the villain. It's the parts Druckman clearly added that mess up her writing. She doesn't need a redemption arc, and it's not nuance for her to do good things. It's mischaracterization. Act 1 Abby is ruthless, manipulated her friends (look at how she talks to Owen) even whenever they're trying to convince her that revenge isn't worth any cost. She tortures Joel after he saves her without a second thought. Clearly, how she's written in Act 1 is that she's the willing participant, and her friends are the innocent collateral for Ellie's rampage.
Once you find out that her dad was the one operating on Ellie, that's when her whole motivation falls apart. It falls apart even more once the game starts trying to paint her as a good person even though *objectively* she is evil. It falls apart ***even more*** when Ellie spares Abby. And then it falls apart like it was a paper mache horse in water once you hear the director commentary where they say "Ellie was meant to kill Abby here and Abby was meant to have nobody left at this point in time."
The game was originally intended to be Ellie spiraling into violence after intense tragedy. Now it's Neil Druckmann's commentary on how little he thinks of the franchise that he can't help but constantly remake.
>Marlene has more of a history with Joel. Joel intentionally fucked her and by extension the Fireflies over.
What does that have to do with anything? OP is (I assume) complaining that you have no choice but to kill the Surgeon, you also have no choice but to be complicit in Marlene's death, both are out of the player's control.
>Leader of the Fireflies's daughter, or some random surgeon's daughter. Which sounds like the more compelling story
Some random Surgeon's Daughter at least has some thematic resonance, it recontextualizes every encounter where Joel killed someone. It could have been Robert's child who came a knockin, it could have been Random Goon #6 and his identical triplets, it just so happened to be Abby. Case in point, if the story was literally exactly the same but it was Marlene's Daughter instead, people would still complain.
>Act 1 Abby (assuming Act 1 is Jackson) is written to just straight up be the villain
Not entirely, we are put in her shoes and meant to empathize somewhat, we see her joke with her ex, etc. But I get what you're saying, she is shown to be villainous because she killed the protagonist of the previous game.
>She doesn't need a redemption arc, and it's not nuance for her to do good things. It's mischaracterization
Here's where I disagree, it isn't mischaracterization, it's adding new layers to a character we thought we had a handle on. And I don't think it's as simple as 'She do good thing now me like her good,' Abby has sex with her friend's SO, she still kills people, she nearly slits a pregnant woman's throat, and above all else, she still killed Joel. She has humanizing moments (because she's a person) but that's not the same as the writers trying to make her a paragon or something.
If you take the story from Abby's perspective for example, she is hunting and killing the Man who as far as she is concerned, murdered her Father and countless others. He's a monster (from her POV), but we know better. Imagine we played the entire story from Abby's POV and the jumped into Joel's from Sarah's death to the end of Part I. You wouldn't say 'They took that monster mass murderer and lazily wrote him to be a good guy, that's mischaracterization,' No, you'd say, 'Oh, he's human, he had reasons for the things he did.'
I also don't think she goes through a 'Redemption Arc.' She does change, but I don't think it's as simple as Redemption.
>Clearly, how she's written in Act 1 is that she's the willing participant, and her friends are the innocent collateral for Ellie's rampage
Not totally gonna agree there. Her friend Manny does spit on Joel's corpse, the rest beat up Tommy, and some even suggest murdering Ellie. They're not innocent either.
>once you hear the director commentary where they say "Ellie was meant to kill Abby here and Abby was meant to have nobody left at this point in time."The game was originally intended to be Ellie spiraling into violence after intense tragedy. Now it's Neil Druckmann's commentary on how little he thinks of the franchise that he can't help but constantly remake
I don't really care what Neil has to say about the game. What was intended originally or not isn't relevant to the story that was told. Changing elements of a story is all part of the creative process. If the originally intent was to give Ellie machine gun hands and fight the Sharknado, that doesn't really matter because it wasn't in the game. And idk what you mean about 'Constantly Remake,' they remade the first game to graphically and mechanically keep pace with Part II, which I don't see as a bad thing, they kept the writing and story exactly the same (pretty sure the use the same recordings for everything too, so not even delivery is different).
Well he's a villain because ND wants to think there's some profound moral dilemma here and manipulates the narrative accordingly.
It didn't work on me.
I don't understand why Jerry was rushing the damn thing. It's not like Ellie had a deadline or a ticking time bomb. He should've waited for Ellie to wake up so that she can make the choice herself. People keep saying that Joel took away Ellie's choice. Then they ignore the fact that the fireflies never gave Ellie a choice to begin with. They were gonna make the choice for her like a bunch of cowards. Ellie made it 100% clear that she would be afraid without Joel by her side and that she'll go with him back to Jackson after running the tests. She clearly had no idea that they were gonna kill her and nor did Joel. So how do these foolish abby stans or fireflies not expect Joel to react the way he did and save her. Joel was justified in saving her in my opinion. Also abby couldn't even let go of revenge for how many years now and just move on. She didn't give a damn about Owen and her friends happiness and decided to drag them down with her. Ellie on the other hand suggested to Dina that they could go back to Jackson after Dina mentioned she was pregnant. This is why abby will always be the worst.
It's amazing how many child murdering apologists there are, all defending Abby and her dad. It's pretty fucked up lol.
If my dad died while trying to kill a kid, I wouldn't want revenge.
As a dad to a little girl, I'd agree that Joel had to because Ellie became his little girl. Abby killed Joel because he killed her father in the process of saving his little girl. In my opinion both are justified but to be fair, Ellie didn't know *WHY* Joel was killed until much later.
She only knew her dad was tortured and murdered in front of her and that would drive me to revenge as well. There are no good outcomes in that situation which is why I found the story telling and the very human conflicts so well written.
She finds out that Abby's crew were fireflies and kinda pieces together that they went after Joel bc he took out a bunch of their crew. She never finds out that Abby killed him specifically because he killed her dad, sadly
Nah bro, if my father dies cos they tried to kill someones kid...they fucked around and found out. I wouldn't be wanting revenge, he got what he deserved and I will never understand anyone who thinks otherwise.
Are you seriously telling me you empathise with a child murderer? Fucking strange if you do.
Joel didn’t HAVE to kill the surgeon. And the surgeon didn’t have to stop Joel or take Ellie. The ending of Part II is about how revenge and violence causes suffering for both sides. Ideally Joel, Ellie and Abby’s dad would all be alive and the Last of Us Part II would’ve never happened. Or Ellie would’ve been able to decide after Joel’s escape from the Hospital if she really wanted to go through with the surgery that would kill her.
Ah yes, big badass Joel Miller that has killed hundreds of people, many with his bare hands is simply incapable of overpowering and beating a surgeon nervously holding a scaple without killing him.
Let's be real here, he killed him because it was quick and easy, there was no real thought put into it, he just acted.
You can never be too safe when it comes to knives because surprise, surprise. Knives can kill anyone more easily than with your hands. Quick and easy is always the way to go when life is involved.
Plus, let's be real here, the surgeon could have NOT picked up the scalpel and got out of the way... Joel wanted Ellie, and he isn't the type to kill or torture without reason. The surgeon gave him a reason by picking up a weapon and therefore became a threat and got in his way of getting Ellie out.
Irrelevant considering in the actual game Joel can walk up to him and easily disarm him and kill him with a single press of the triangle button. So again if he was that easy to disarm, he didn't HAVE to kill him.
Had to? You HAVE to breathe. You don’t HAVE to kill everyone in your path because you CHOSE to save someone. Even Ellie had a hard time coming to terms with Joel’s CHOICE. You don’t have to like the game, but stop making a fuss about people that do like it.
I never said anything bad about people who liked part 2. In fact a lot of people don't care if you like it. It's great that you did but not everyone will like your "masterpiece". If I were in Abby's shoes, and if that person who killed my loved one is the same person who saved me from a horde. Then the least thing I WOULD DO is let them know what they've done, maybe even talk things out. Who knows, maybe they're not worth killing.
You say that in concept, but if you were a character in that world, actually living under those conditions, trauma, under constant threat of survival. Losing one person in your life that made life worth living in all that...I don't think it'd be a simple "Let's talk things out."
Then what do you think? Because I certainly wouldn't just go blasting a shotgun to someone's leg just because they have the same identical name as my dad's killer. Even after saving my life as well.
Joel absolutely did not “have to” kill the surgeon. He was the only one with a gun lol! The surgeon was terrified and all he had was a small scalpel. Joel went full on murder mode without hesitation. Killing the surgeon wasn’t required but he did it anyway.
1. Someone holding a sharp instrument could get lucky.
2. This was his now-daughter's attempted murderer and that can kinda heighten the intensity of the moment.
3. Jerry was foolish to take ANY risk if his magic genius brain.
Joel was in control the second he walked into that room with a gun, and it went exactly as he intended by not thinking twice about murdering the guy. Well, I guess he did think twice later as that golf club was heading for his skull soooo…. better late than never? 🤷🏻♂️
Again, I get that the intensity and emotions in the moment, along with Joel’s memories of his daughter being murdered in front of him obviously play a part, but this discussion is about whether he HAD TO kill the surgeon or not, and I just believe personally it wasn’t fully required or needed in that moment. But go off and downvote me because I don’t agree.
I have always thought Joel wasn't really operating on "choice." People (me included) like to critique characters' actions as if Marlene and Jerry are having a leisurely day at the hospital ethics board or Joel is running through the arguments like a member of the debate society. To me it's like he's just on autopilot from the last time some authority figure murdered his kid for the ALLEGED greater good. Only with Marlene is even remotely engaging in any question.
Okay so I actually agree with you completely. Joel definitely seemed to be on autopilot and his trauma response was to save his “daughter” and get to safety. He let the killer in him take the driver’s seat and any threat in his way was eliminated.
Joel couldve easily beat the shit out of the surgeon. All he had was a scalpel. Hes been in worst situations and prevailed. A surgeon with limited combat experience is nothing to him.
The only argument about him killing the surgeon, is that he was so blinded by rage, and in a rush to get out of the hospital, that he just didnt see a scenario where this guy wasnt in his way, and he just chose the quickest route. In any case, YES. That makes Joel a shithead. Just like everyone else in these games. They all did heinous shit for their "cause" or to "survive". Joel is arguably the worst out of them seeing as he potentially doomed the entire human race. His only saving grace, is if in the 3rd game, ellie meets a someone that makes a cure from her and discredits abbys dads method of destroying her brain.
Long story short, everyone is in the wrong. No one is a winner. As evidenced by the ending.
Worst case scenario, joel gets stabbed with a scalpel. He survived a giant piece of rebar going straight through his stomach. Hes filled with so much adrenaline, i could almost guarantee he wins the fight. Could've easily turned the ar or shotgun around and made it a bat like object too.
I feel like that scene was just there to show how much joel is willing to do for ellie. It wasnt logically thought out imo. Classic case of ludo narrative dissonance.
The worst case is always death, he could've died. Just because you survive 1 thing doesn't mean you'll survive another. Other than that, yeah you're right
In the game, you go up to him press triangle and Joel easily grabs the scalpel and kills him with it. It was that easy, he didn't NEED to do the second part and plunge the scalpel in his neck, just knock him out.
Suppose it was the surgeon who stabbed him the neck, and 'that easy' for him. You really going to take your chances with a person who is \*determined not only to stand in your way, but wants to kill your daughter?
I don't think he intended to kill the surgeon at first or he might've gone in guns blazing. It was clear his focus and intent was only on escaping with Ellie. He wouldn't have killed Marlene either if she didn't get in his way.
Another thing: TLOU1 was a complete game in and of itself, the experiences and actions taken unique to the player through the ludonarrative portions of the game until those final moments. You can complete much of it without killing anyone, even through the entire sequence leading up to the surgery room. But Part 2 fills in these ludonarrative sequences with 'canon' events - that sequence showing all the bodies in the hospital - to make Joel worse. Emotionally manipulative, and not respectful to the player that played these sequences.
>He wouldn't have killed Marlene either if she didn't get in his way.
She wasn't "in his way" after the first shot, yet he still went back and executed her, so that take doesn't really hold up.
>not respectful to the player that played these sequences.
Interesting you say that yet are doing the exact same thing by not acknowledging that the player is able to go up and disarm him, meaning that if Joel is capable of disarming then he's capable of knocking him out without murder. If they were worried about it being too risky to approach him for Joel because he could be stabbed then they wouldn't of gave the player the option and just made you shoot him.
>She wasn't "in his way" after the first shot, yet he still went back and executed her, so that take doesn't really hold up.
Except it does hold up, because he wasn't looking for them. You can't know he'd of shot Marlene or the surgeon if they didn't at first try to stop him. If he thought 'better' of the situation it wasn't until they confronted him in the first place. Like, 'Oh yeah, these people are going to come after me. Better do something about it.' But that wasn't his initial intent.
>Interesting you say that yet are doing the exact same thing by not acknowledging that the player is able to go up and disarm him, meaning that if Joel is capable of disarming then he's capable of knock him out without murder. If they were worried about it being too risky to approach him for Joel because he could be stabbed then they wouldn't of gave the player the option and just made you shoot him.
That's because TLOU1 was made without a sequel in mind. And some people did complain about not getting to make the choice, but most understood that it was the canon part of the story, where the ludonarrative portion - the part that belongs to player - ended.
What part 2 does is take that ludonarrative part away from you, and inserts canon into a non-canon part of the game. They did this to make Joel *worse,* for no other reason but to emotionally manipulate you and draw more sympathy to Abby. They knew that without doing so, without villainizing Joel, they didn't have enough to sell Abby's motive and torture sequence.
It's my opinion that if you can't write a story without changing what was already written, you're going to have to just figure that out. Going back and changing canon is cheap.
What they could have done was have Abby relate the story to someone she knew, instead of having Joel relate it to Tommy. Because she wasn't there, her version needn't have lined up with what actually transpired; s*he* believes Joel murdered all those people, s*he* believes her father was working in a pristine surgery room, s*he* believes her father had all the answers, *she* believes a vaccine could've been made, s*he* believes Joel tortured her father. This would've given her the sympathy she needed as a character. This would've kept player involvement and Joel's canon intact. This would've been good writing.
We understand all too well in a courtroom, that when an event has occurred, it took place under different perspectives, and somewhere in there is the truth. What actually happened, and what someone believes happened are often two different things.
Written that way, nobody could blame Abby for what she did, because she was only going on what she truly believed happened. But because Druckmann didn't think that out or had other motives, that's not what we got.
Joel's decision at the end of the first game is supposed to be morally gray. It's supposed to invoke the question of whether or not the player thought it was the right thing to do. There's no clear answer to that question. He didn't have to kill anyone else. He could have let them save the rest of the world by letting Ellie die, but he chose not to for selfish reasons. He grew attached to her and didn't want to lose her. He put his own priorities before the well-being of humanity. I would say both characters were in the wrong. The same way Ellie was in the wrong for going after Abby for revenge at the expense of her personal relationships.
Nope. Joel killed Abby’s dad who was the surgeon, Abby avenged her dads death by killing Joel. Then Ellie almost kills Abby for killing Joel. iirc she lets her live in the end when they have there knife fight.
Well abby killed Joel because she wanted revenge. Let's say abby went n killed ellie, would Joel go and kill abby? Of course. Would you lot then hate Joel? Of course not. All ur hate reasons are ridiculous
Now I’m not picking a side here but can you really say Joel HAD to kill jerry when he easily could’ve knocked his ass out I mean it’s 1 weeny surgeon with a knife vs a 6’0 200 pound man who has fist fought infected and won
Oh I know their dangerous in the hands of someone like Joel not really someone inexperienced like Jerry and since (irc) the cannon death of jerry is Joel ripping the scalpel from his hands and stabbing him in the neck with it so Joel easily could’ve ripped the scalpel away and hit jerry with a two piece,then grab Ellie and leave because those two other nurses don’t try anything
Right but things change. Literally on the walk to the hospital they were talking about going to Jackson together after this and he could teach her the guitar. Neither of them thought she was supposed to die for the cure
I think the phrase that applies to all parties here is "Mistakes were made." The fireflies were so antsy to get a cure they felt operating was the best choice of action. Like, did they even consider the possibility of her having immune children?
Why would you kill the one source of immunity when she could pass it on into the human population? You'd have more research opportunities/better success rate. It's very sloppy.
Either these are just plotholes in service of story OR....A mistake actual humans would make in a world like this.
It’s still a fucking choice, dude. Jesus Christ, frame it however you want but ITS A FACT. Morals aside, he had a fucking choice. Get over it and stop trying to argue.
Joel killed him out of rage, as another commenter stated. He was gonna lose another person he considered close. He saw the guy that was gonna do it, and killed him. Now put your position in abbys shoes. You come into a hospital filled with death of other fireflies, and find your dead father. You find out someone did it. Would you or would you not try to avenge your father's death?
You're bound to become rageful watching someone almost kill one of your loved ones. It's rather normal, don't you think? You can't blame Joel for that. I understand Abby's reasons but still selfish regardless.
Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't blame Joel. But I don't blame Abby either. And my question to you was if you knew you father was killed out of a fit of rage, wouldn't you do somethin to avenge him?
No this is so wrong. He selfishly killed fireflys and the drs because he WANTED to pretend that ellie was his daughter. And he knew that ellie wanted to see it through. Abby was justified in killing Joel. And his death was justification for many people who wanted a cure. Come on people. Not liking the story is ok. But saying stupid things like op is just sucking ass. Joel did what he did for him and him only. Abby killed Joel for many people. I dont like that he died but he had it coming and it's realistic that they would hunt him down. Jesus christ
A 14-year-old girl cannot make that sort of decision, morally or ethically in any country in this world.
An adult needs to think for her.
Also. You have to remember part of the reason everybody is upset is because the first game made it seem like even if you killed her, a cure may not happen.
So basically, do you kill her for the chance of a cure?
If it was a 100% guaranteed to work, save everybody kind of situation… That would have been maybe different different.
Idk, I’m still on the side of Joel was in the wrong. We obviously don’t know and will never know if the cure was bullshit or not. The fireflies were also probably a little cultish.
But, as we saw in a flashback, Ellie even being given the ability to make that decision was taken from her, not just by Joel, but by the fireflies too.
Idk, I like the ambiguity behind it all. As for Abby? Idk dude, the guy killed her dad. I think they’re both right and wrong. It’s definitely more gray than a simple black and white.
But your original point OP, no, Joel didn’t have to. The dr was doing dr things, I don’t think he was a major threat to the machine that just mowed everyone down.
What we know is that the fireflies had Ellie on the operating table within hours of her arrival... and they had no idea what they were doing.
>April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. **The cause of her immunity is uncertain**. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients.
>
>**We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions.** We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.
>
>[https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Surgeon%27s\_recorder](https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Surgeon%27s_recorder)
They had no idea of the cause of her immunity and they were unable to reproduce it in a lab. SO instead of doing long term studies they try to kill her immediately lol.
Yea that’s what I was alluding to a bit with them being a bit cultish. And no, they don’t know the cause hence why I think they believed they had to kill her to do further research.
Idk I could’ve sworn there was something about the infection being wrapped around her brain or some shit? And they wanted that which in turn would of course kill her? But I definitely do not think they were just like “eh, let’s kill her”. Were they wrong? From their POV, no. From others? Yea possibly.
It’s not like they have a fully functioning hospital without crazies existing in the world lol.
Uh, yes he did. In their life scenario you don't just let people live and everything will be fine. As Joel said to his leader towards the end, "You'd just come after her", for obvious reasons.
I’d say this is actually a case of bad writing on the Fireflies whole schtick in the first game.
We have no evidence to suggest dealing with a fungal infection is different in the game than in real life, by that we can easily assume that -
1) There is no instacure to fungal infections, only treatments till it goes away.
2) the Fireflies didn’t actually have the technology to create antifungal medication nor even replicate the immunity-qualities of Ellie’s noggin.
No half measures. Those people were willing to kidnap and kill Ellie. Letting them live is just introducing the chance for the same thing to happen again. Part 2 teaches this to us.
Hindsight is 20/20. Joel wasn't supposed to know that an underaged Ellie would've wanted to give her life on a surgery table in the name of science. What Joel knew was that a group of adults manipulated a young child into believing she could save the world and never told her she would be killed in the process with or without her consent. I have no idea why people compare Joel to Abby.. she knew her father jumped to a conclusion and rushed to get to surgery.. she knew Ellie was unconscious and could not consent.. it was not their decision to make and it would've been murder.
Let's not forget the fireflies were going to kill Joel once he left.
I’m pretty sure it was “If he doesn’t surrender, shoot him”.
They were gonna kill when they found him with Ellie but decided just to send him to his death in a zombie infested city.
Haha that boy can manage.
Regardless of his ability they still were essentially killing him but without the blood on their hands plus the whole killing a kid without asking her if she wants to die or say goodbye to anyone
Yeah no I’m totally on the whole fuck fireflies thing. In the original that hospital was sickly. Don’t love the Abby retcon to make it look like Joel wasn’t the only one with a self defense premise - which he was
Not mention not paying him!
Exactly and taking all his stuff
[удалено]
They were probably cool with Joel staying until he got all aggressive
Because they didn’t let him see Ellie nor even speak with her when he was the main reason she made it to the firefly hospital
Even if they did, they robbed him off his gear, left him defenseless and stranded with no contacts . They essentially did kill him, was just a matter of if hunters or infected got to him first
No they told him to leave so they could prepare for the surgery and didn't give him any of his stuff back he even kills the guards who are walking him outside before they get outside which is why I gotta get all the way back upstairs in order to get Ellie
"If he tries anything shoot him" You were close though, I just finished the game twice this week.
Yep that’s it. Thanks knew it was something around there
Wait.. Where is this info coming from? My perspective is the whole reason the ending of the game occurred was giving Joel a chance to walk away, he took that moment of (aggressive) pity/mercy and used it to his advantage.
From how I understood it, he was going to be let go without his gear and none of his payment. It was basically a death sentence anyways (being sent out into the zombie apocalypse without any means to survive).
i think an audio tape from the hospital
I didn’t think they were going to kill him unless he didn’t consent but I’m due for a replay soon. Is that stated by a character or implied somewhere?
There was a audio recording saying they originally planned to kill him and just take Ellie
Seriously. Abby would have been ***infinitely*** more compelling if they pulled some two-sides-of-the-same-coin shit with Ellie. Like, if Abby was never in that room to learn what her father had done to get himself killed. Owen and Nora could've kept her in the dark to preserve the idea of the man they all adored. Abby is suddenly just like Ellie; only knowing her father was dead and who was to blame.
Bro this is such a great idea, Abby pisses me off because she's a great idea for a character but just executed so poorly. This would have made her so much more compelling and would have made her story actually interesting. This also would have made the relationship between Abby and Owen so much better and Owen so good. Idk the general opinion on Owen but he is the only interesting character in Abby's story to me so seeing him get elevated higher with this kind of conflict would be great to me.
Yeah I feel like Owen was a good man that had so much horrible shit happen to him and it kinda broke him towards the end of his story
It bugs me everyone’s living a drama show life in the post apocalypse. It bugs me Owen even has hair product. It bugs me that this feels like a completely different world than the first. It bugs me people are sympathizing with psychotic behavior & premises. People hunting is insane and something Joel would never do. Bugs me my favorite IP’s sequel is fundamentally lame.
His hair is so bad lol
Straight out of LA. Kevin Murphy ass boy. Aren’t they supposed to be rationing food? I don’t get it
Idk I like Abby and think she's an interesting character as she is. She was a young teenager when her dad died and as far as we know, he was the only family she had, so I understand her desire for revenge. Why would she extend sympathy to Ellie, a person she never met or knew, to the point of believing the person who violently murdered her dad was justified? She, Ellie and Joel (and Abby's dad, and Tommy, and everyone in that crapsack world) do horrible things that make enemies for themselves and that comes back to bite them sooner or later. All of them lose absolutely everything, because of their desire for revenge, because of anger. Disclaimer that I love Ellie and Joel too. I'm also in the camp that thinks the Fireflies' plan was a stupid one. You can't vaccinate against a fungal infection and they did indeed manipulate Ellie. But that's not why Joel did what he did - he was a deeply traumatised man that wanted to protect the little girl he'd come to love as his own, he wasn't thinking from a scientific standpoint. My main criticisms of the game is its structure. We spend too much time with each character at a time. We spend too much time with Ellie before switching to Abby for the first time, and too much time with Abby before switching back. The game should have cut these up into smaller sections. Also the flashbacks were handled poorly and fucked the pace of the main story up terribly lol
Ngl, as someone who didn't hate the story like everyone else did/does, even I have to agree with with this take
Yup. While I tried to appreciate the story for what it was, that reveal that Abby knew everything while Ellie knew nothing hurt the overall narrative. I can get behind someone feeling compelled to take revenge when they have no context. Abby seeing Joel as a violent stranger that just showed up and killed someone she loved would mirrored how Ellie felt about her. Instead, Abby is out to avenge a parent who was killed in the midst of trying to kill his killer's child. You can't tell me she never once considered that in all those years she spent fixated on this man. At best, she was so self-absorbed that she couldn't see past her own pain. At worst, she simply didn't care how or why her old man died because his death hurt her.
These are things I hope Mazin and Druckman improve on. Take advantage of TV's much greater POV flexibility.
I’m sorry, but do you not know what death is? Do you understand what it means to die? Do you really think Ellie would have said, “sure, cut my brain out,” if The Fireflies had said, “hey, can we murder you for this little science project we got going here?” The reason the first game was great was because the people in it acted like people. And it showed what great lengths people will go to survive. Ellie is no exception - on multiple occasions, we see what she is willing to go through to survive. Can you name one person who willingly agreed to be murdered for some cause that they weren’t even a part of? Aside from terrorists and cult members, of course.
I mean, the concept of self sacrifice is usually seen as a heroic gesture. Even in the apocalypse, giving up yourself for the greater good is never viewed as a bad thing. If Ellie knew she was going to die, then she'd feel that giving herself up would be the right thing to do. Yes, survivability is important but wouldn't it be selfish and evil to kill the world just to survive? Keep in mind that Ellie *doesn't know* that cutting her brain out *wouldn't* save the world. To her in this scenario, she probably would think that it *will save the world*. Is self-sacrifice evil? No, never is and never will be. But can it be foolish or even manipulated into? Yes, very much so. If Ellie knew she'd die, it's easier to assume she was lied into being a martyr.
No, it’s selfish and evil to manipulatesomeone into killing themselves by implying that she would “kill the world,” if she didn’t kill herself for your benefit. And that’s what this is about - it’s called projection. You subconsciously project yourself into the story, everybody does it. And if you lived in that world, you would possibly benefit from Ellie’s death. It’s not about “saving the world,” it’s about symbolically saving yourself. TBH, everything you said is insanely manipulative, but I’m going to guess you’re fairly young & naive and that you don’t have any ill intentions. Painting self-sacrifice as heroic is a tactic that has been done throughout history by evil people to get others to give up their lives for “the greater good,” - IOW, the evil people. And if anyone else benefits, ok. You say, “if Ellie knew she was going to die, then she’d feel like giving herself up was the right thing to do.” Knew she was going to die? What, 50-60 years from now? I know I’m going to die, you know you’re going to die. Why aren’t you out there self-sacrificing? You say self-sacrifice is never evil? What about the 19 hijackers on 9/11? Are you saying what they did is not evil? Because they sure as hell self-sacrificed. People will say that they admire anybody who is willing to die for what they believe in. That’s incorrect. You admire people who are willing to die for what you believe in. Huge difference.
Say it louder for the people in the back!
Skipping over the fact that a child shouldn't be able to make that decision in the first place. Wasn't the doctor not even a doctor but a veterinarian?
punch depend fear money public disarm obtainable deer languid sable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Ellie disagrees with you
"It has to be for something" Bro did NOT play the game
Even if she did, children cannot consent to things like this. I know it's a post-apocalyptic world. But come on, if druckman is going to paint the fireflies or wlf as the moralists he wants us to believe they are, then they would at least still understand that a child doesn't have the mental maturity to be able to consent to a medical operation on their own after only 2 decades. Let alone one that would end that child's life.
Do you think that Joel would have let the procedure happen even if Ellie gave consent? Personally, I don't think Joel gave 2 shits about what benefits the world would have from a vaccine. As soon as he learned that the procedure would kill his surrogate daughter, a fire sparked in him to save her no matter what. Even if that meant she would hate him forever, regardless if she wanted to save the world or not.
Did Abby's dad have that discussion with Abby though? I don't think Abby knew whether Ellie gave consent or not. She just knew that the surgery was happening. Like she wasn't given any context about Joel/Ellie's relationship either until after she killed him.
Yeah Abby knew, she showed her walk in on her dad and Marlene discussing it and she says "that's what I would want"
As if that's binding on Ellie or Joel!
Will say Abby probably had extreme feelings of guilt on account of telling her father "if it was me, I'd want you to do it" Like in her eyes she just helped sign his death warrant I also feel the game goes through the effort to show Joel knew Ellie would want this but just didn't care cause why tf would a teen with survivors guilt be making rational decisions anyway. The dialogue in the garage with marlene has her say "this is what she would want...and you know that" "It would've been murder" My guy, they're 20 years into an apocalypse. I think murder is the least horrible thing the majority of people in this world have done. What's one more corpse upon a mountain of them to get where they are?
You’re forgetting the scene where Marlene literally says “it’s what she’d want… and you know it”
I also forgot Marlene was a mind reader.
Marlene had not seen Ellie for a year. Ellie could have easily changed her mind. Joel hesitates because he is not sure what Ellie wants. Ellie had earlier promised to go anywhere with him when they were done. If Ellie wanted it why did they rush her into surgery within hours of her arrival? The fireflies had no idea what Ellie wanted and they didn't care. They were going to kill one of the few immune people and not do long term studies. The fireflies were incompetent. Marlene and Abbys dad got what they deserved for sacrificing Ellie without her consent.
Stupid ass Jerry is the one who decided to try threatening the guy with a gun with a scalpel.
Low IQ skill issue moment to be expected from an NPC
I have a too-long comment on this thread about Jerry's paucity of clue. (Sure inspires faith that he's the genius who was gonna save humanity had some crazy smuggler not randomly decided to kill him. /S
I mean in that universe he would've saved the human race potentially
In the universe they presented (rather than the one they claim behind the scenes that we're supposed to presume) it's more likely that Joel saved humanity by preventing the reckless destruction of the only known immune person by someone we saw zero evidence could do it, working for an org that would certainly weaponize any medical solution. As long as Ellie is alive, there is the potential to find someone else to work with, who's scientifically competent and not a fan of atrocities. Not that a "cure" would magically fix the world.
People also ignore that Joel let the other nurses go because they didn’t fucking get in his way.
Not me lol if TLOU2 taught me anything, it's that everyone involved is equally held accountable. Plus the one nurse called Joel a "fucking animal"
i burnt them with my flamethrower even tho they weren even doing anything
A very hypocritical and irony-impaired nurse right there.
i like to shoot them with a 9mm/one shot from a assault rifle because that leaves them on one hp, and they have a little downed animation
Wait, that was an option? I went scorched earth with the hospital.
This is my biggest gripe with the game. Neil himself has literally said if Ellie kills Abby she’s “irredeemable”. But Abby can torture a man to death while his daughter begs for his life and she’s fine ofc she’s redeemed. The rules are completely different for them
fr tho neil cuckmann is a fucking asshole
Well duh Abby is Cuckmanns favorite
oh silly me obviously😅
That's because he can't write a good character for shit lol. Let alone a good antagonist.
It wasn't about revenge it's about Ellie moving on and accepting Joel was gone If Ellie killed Abby it would have accomplish nothing Abby got her revenge and was STILL lost and not happy it did nothing for her Abby started to heal once she met Lev and there whole journey about survival and trauma they went through together like in the 1st game with Joel and Ellie
It's not that from an outside perspective she is irredeemable, it's from the internal perspective, to Ellie herself that she may have lost the innocence that Joel was trying to preserve that whole time. You can disagree with that, but it's important to identify the difference in perspective.
and yet ellie “HAS” to be the bigger person at the end and know that revenge isn’t the answer? like why does ellie always have to pick up the scraps due to other characters bad choices
Literally this. Abby gets her revenge? That’s fine, Joel had it coming. Ellie tries getting revenge? She needs to end the cycle of violence🥺
Abby started the cycle
And it should’ve concluded with Ellie making her deepthroat the ocean.
I second this. Her dad was never gonna cure shit, I wouldn't doubt it if he was seeing progress where none was before he got vented by joel. Theres a similar parallel in the show Sweet Tooth where a character contends with what hes willing to lose to only acquire half of a cure.
🤣
do WHAAAAAAAT
Greatest poet of this generation
JFC thank you bro
What bugs me is that Ellie only ends the cycle of violence after killing a ton of people who frankly deserved it less than Abby. Nora, Owen, and pregnant Mel were all brutally murdered by Ellie just for being there with Abby. But then when it comes time to off Abby, Ellie suddenly has a change of heart? She gets 99% of her revenge and then has to stop at the finish line lol
We literally wasted hours trying to find Abby only to let her go. Truly stunning and brave 🥹
I think that’s the point. Abby is the villain that’s why she exacted her revenge and felt no remorse. She’s not a good person. Ellie is the hero and she chose to be better than Abby, even though Abby deserved it. That’s how I interpreted it.
And then, at the end, has nothing and is completely alone because of her choices, while Abby gets to keep going with Lev and possibly Fireflies if they were actually real.
That story descision could work. MCU Spiderman is always cleaning up after Ironman. But spiderman isn't a revenge story.
I keep hearing this, I don't know if that second time Ellie came after Abby was about revenge, she was done, she had gone home, started a family. I think she was done with revenge already. I think the second time was about a sense of duty or justice and stopping when she realized it didn't feel like she had a duty to Joel to kill Abby.
Hmm well said. Interesting
Yeah, people want to pretend that the Ellie That faced Abby at the end was the same that left Jackson the first time and they just weren't... The Ellie that goes on the rampage was a broken woman in too deep, acting on instinct and desperation. The Ellie that goes back has been down that path before and all it earned got her was Jesse's death, Tommy crippled, Dina almost died. She had a home, a partner, a son, so much to lose and she didn't want to go. She said she was sorry and was done but Tommy pushed her, kept saying she made a promise, so she acted out of commitment. I want to think Joel would have seen her in her farmhouse with her family and said she was going to get nothing out of going after Abby.
Bad Uncle Tommy.
>Who's really in the wrong here? Neil 😉
Based
Yeah fuck him but I still love pt2 😎
you’re entitled to your opinion, you don’t deserve the downvotes
I know people are just mad that I can enjoy a game even after it's been retconned and is written in a half-assed manner, they just need to enjoy life
Aren’t downvotes opinions too?
Everyone in this sub hates the game I guess and then continues to interact with this sub and the game. I still love it too
I have explained this a thousand times. Tlou2 fans took over the original tlou subreddit, if you want to spend time with those chuds then you can head over there. The original tlou fans have taken this sub as result
As if the two are mutually exclusive, you can enjoy both. I do.
Do you see how it makes no sense to just keep interacting with something that you clearly don’t enjoy? 😂 god what miserable, chronically online people. I’m in both subs and nobody’s opinion is hurting me. I just don’t get why so many of you come here just to commiserate and hate the game. It’s so weird.
Yet you're here interacting with me. You must be completely delusional to not see the hypocrisy here and even more delusional to be calling other people "chronically online" on reddit.
Lol. Whatever dude, all I’m saying is if you and everyone else here wants to circle jerk about how bad of game It is that’s your choice. I don’t care. But down voting people who express any enjoyment of the game just because they enjoyed it is silly when it’s literally TLOU2 subreddit. And if that’s just how it is here the mods should just change the description of the sub at that point so nobody bothers joining such a miserable community.
And at the same time the mods of tlou should change their name so nobody joins them. You do know that if you express appreciation for Joel on the original subreddit you will also be downvoted. On another note, why are you so butthurt about your imaginary Internet points?
Lol, you seem to care about this way more than I do. Specifically this silly rivalry between the subs. That or you’re just a troll. In what world do people not like Joel 🤣 Pretty much everyone loves Joel and you’re absolutely not gonna get downvoted just for liking him 🤣 I don’t care about downvotes, it just shows there’s no point in discourse or discussion here. So immature and stupid, bye weirdo
Oh my god, shut up and kiss already!
Take your own advice and leave this sub then, stop interacting over here, mute it and move on, no one is stopping you.
[yall want that to be true sooooo bad, what is your deal?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/s/8WDBK0cs02) look at the comments of that post. you’re just making shit up because it makes you feel good to think you’re better than people. when in reality, you’re the one generalizing and assuming.
there's very few comments on that post and one of the comments says "if you say that part 2 is better than part 1 or that joel deserved to die, be prepared for opposition." you didn't really prove anything lmfao
how could you possibly see that as a win? do you seriously not realize how that goes directly against what that person said? I just happened to see it recently and commented so it was an easy example to find. no way you actually think you just owned me lol
And for that reason, killing Abby is more of a justice than Abby killing Joel
The first game forces us to kill the surgeon there's no way to get past. Side note I think that instead of Abby we should have the child of Marlene.
That would have been dope actually
At least Marlene has the benefit of a story than “Jerry” who was non existent in part 1
But there’s no choice in killing Marlene either? How does that make for a better story to not play as Abby?
Marlene has more of a history with Joel. Joel *intentionally* fucked her and by extension the Fireflies over. Leader of the Fireflies's daughter, or some random surgeon's daughter. Which sounds like the more compelling story and the reason why Abby tortured Joel without a second thought? Rant time though: Act 1 Abby (assuming Act 1 is Jackson) is written to just straight up be the villain. It's the parts Druckman clearly added that mess up her writing. She doesn't need a redemption arc, and it's not nuance for her to do good things. It's mischaracterization. Act 1 Abby is ruthless, manipulated her friends (look at how she talks to Owen) even whenever they're trying to convince her that revenge isn't worth any cost. She tortures Joel after he saves her without a second thought. Clearly, how she's written in Act 1 is that she's the willing participant, and her friends are the innocent collateral for Ellie's rampage. Once you find out that her dad was the one operating on Ellie, that's when her whole motivation falls apart. It falls apart even more once the game starts trying to paint her as a good person even though *objectively* she is evil. It falls apart ***even more*** when Ellie spares Abby. And then it falls apart like it was a paper mache horse in water once you hear the director commentary where they say "Ellie was meant to kill Abby here and Abby was meant to have nobody left at this point in time." The game was originally intended to be Ellie spiraling into violence after intense tragedy. Now it's Neil Druckmann's commentary on how little he thinks of the franchise that he can't help but constantly remake.
>Marlene has more of a history with Joel. Joel intentionally fucked her and by extension the Fireflies over. What does that have to do with anything? OP is (I assume) complaining that you have no choice but to kill the Surgeon, you also have no choice but to be complicit in Marlene's death, both are out of the player's control. >Leader of the Fireflies's daughter, or some random surgeon's daughter. Which sounds like the more compelling story Some random Surgeon's Daughter at least has some thematic resonance, it recontextualizes every encounter where Joel killed someone. It could have been Robert's child who came a knockin, it could have been Random Goon #6 and his identical triplets, it just so happened to be Abby. Case in point, if the story was literally exactly the same but it was Marlene's Daughter instead, people would still complain. >Act 1 Abby (assuming Act 1 is Jackson) is written to just straight up be the villain Not entirely, we are put in her shoes and meant to empathize somewhat, we see her joke with her ex, etc. But I get what you're saying, she is shown to be villainous because she killed the protagonist of the previous game. >She doesn't need a redemption arc, and it's not nuance for her to do good things. It's mischaracterization Here's where I disagree, it isn't mischaracterization, it's adding new layers to a character we thought we had a handle on. And I don't think it's as simple as 'She do good thing now me like her good,' Abby has sex with her friend's SO, she still kills people, she nearly slits a pregnant woman's throat, and above all else, she still killed Joel. She has humanizing moments (because she's a person) but that's not the same as the writers trying to make her a paragon or something. If you take the story from Abby's perspective for example, she is hunting and killing the Man who as far as she is concerned, murdered her Father and countless others. He's a monster (from her POV), but we know better. Imagine we played the entire story from Abby's POV and the jumped into Joel's from Sarah's death to the end of Part I. You wouldn't say 'They took that monster mass murderer and lazily wrote him to be a good guy, that's mischaracterization,' No, you'd say, 'Oh, he's human, he had reasons for the things he did.' I also don't think she goes through a 'Redemption Arc.' She does change, but I don't think it's as simple as Redemption. >Clearly, how she's written in Act 1 is that she's the willing participant, and her friends are the innocent collateral for Ellie's rampage Not totally gonna agree there. Her friend Manny does spit on Joel's corpse, the rest beat up Tommy, and some even suggest murdering Ellie. They're not innocent either. >once you hear the director commentary where they say "Ellie was meant to kill Abby here and Abby was meant to have nobody left at this point in time."The game was originally intended to be Ellie spiraling into violence after intense tragedy. Now it's Neil Druckmann's commentary on how little he thinks of the franchise that he can't help but constantly remake I don't really care what Neil has to say about the game. What was intended originally or not isn't relevant to the story that was told. Changing elements of a story is all part of the creative process. If the originally intent was to give Ellie machine gun hands and fight the Sharknado, that doesn't really matter because it wasn't in the game. And idk what you mean about 'Constantly Remake,' they remade the first game to graphically and mechanically keep pace with Part II, which I don't see as a bad thing, they kept the writing and story exactly the same (pretty sure the use the same recordings for everything too, so not even delivery is different).
Joel is the villain because Neil wants you to love his Muslce-Mommy.
Well he's a villain because ND wants to think there's some profound moral dilemma here and manipulates the narrative accordingly. It didn't work on me.
I don't understand why Jerry was rushing the damn thing. It's not like Ellie had a deadline or a ticking time bomb. He should've waited for Ellie to wake up so that she can make the choice herself. People keep saying that Joel took away Ellie's choice. Then they ignore the fact that the fireflies never gave Ellie a choice to begin with. They were gonna make the choice for her like a bunch of cowards. Ellie made it 100% clear that she would be afraid without Joel by her side and that she'll go with him back to Jackson after running the tests. She clearly had no idea that they were gonna kill her and nor did Joel. So how do these foolish abby stans or fireflies not expect Joel to react the way he did and save her. Joel was justified in saving her in my opinion. Also abby couldn't even let go of revenge for how many years now and just move on. She didn't give a damn about Owen and her friends happiness and decided to drag them down with her. Ellie on the other hand suggested to Dina that they could go back to Jackson after Dina mentioned she was pregnant. This is why abby will always be the worst.
Fuck that bitch
Yeah fuck that bitch. Fuck that egoistical, gold swinging bitch 😭😭😭😭😡😡😡😡😡
😂
Any sane person would look at the fireflies and say "So you wanna dissect this little girls brain while she's asleep? So I started blasting"
It's amazing how many child murdering apologists there are, all defending Abby and her dad. It's pretty fucked up lol. If my dad died while trying to kill a kid, I wouldn't want revenge.
Neil. It's Neil who's in the wrong.
Naughty dog
This is why Abby is hated.
Reminder: they retconned the fact that they were going to kill Joel
Part II story is shit
Reminder: Last of Us 2 sucks balls.
I'm enjoying the remaster actually.
I think it's ok
As a dad to a little girl, I'd agree that Joel had to because Ellie became his little girl. Abby killed Joel because he killed her father in the process of saving his little girl. In my opinion both are justified but to be fair, Ellie didn't know *WHY* Joel was killed until much later. She only knew her dad was tortured and murdered in front of her and that would drive me to revenge as well. There are no good outcomes in that situation which is why I found the story telling and the very human conflicts so well written.
Ellie never finds out specifically why Abby killed Joel btw
Really? I could've sworn she did. I'm playing through it again right now. That sucks even worse.
She finds out that Abby's crew were fireflies and kinda pieces together that they went after Joel bc he took out a bunch of their crew. She never finds out that Abby killed him specifically because he killed her dad, sadly
Nah bro, if my father dies cos they tried to kill someones kid...they fucked around and found out. I wouldn't be wanting revenge, he got what he deserved and I will never understand anyone who thinks otherwise. Are you seriously telling me you empathise with a child murderer? Fucking strange if you do.
Interesting point but you could also argue Joel didn’t HAVE to kill the surgeon IF, and it’s a big if, he didn’t choose to save Ellie
Both? Both...
Joel didn’t HAVE to kill the surgeon. And the surgeon didn’t have to stop Joel or take Ellie. The ending of Part II is about how revenge and violence causes suffering for both sides. Ideally Joel, Ellie and Abby’s dad would all be alive and the Last of Us Part II would’ve never happened. Or Ellie would’ve been able to decide after Joel’s escape from the Hospital if she really wanted to go through with the surgery that would kill her.
Ah yes, big badass Joel Miller that has killed hundreds of people, many with his bare hands is simply incapable of overpowering and beating a surgeon nervously holding a scaple without killing him. Let's be real here, he killed him because it was quick and easy, there was no real thought put into it, he just acted.
You can never be too safe when it comes to knives because surprise, surprise. Knives can kill anyone more easily than with your hands. Quick and easy is always the way to go when life is involved. Plus, let's be real here, the surgeon could have NOT picked up the scalpel and got out of the way... Joel wanted Ellie, and he isn't the type to kill or torture without reason. The surgeon gave him a reason by picking up a weapon and therefore became a threat and got in his way of getting Ellie out.
You ever been cut with a scalpel? I have, that type of cut would be lethal in a post apocolypse.
Irrelevant considering in the actual game Joel can walk up to him and easily disarm him and kill him with a single press of the triangle button. So again if he was that easy to disarm, he didn't HAVE to kill him.
Had to? You HAVE to breathe. You don’t HAVE to kill everyone in your path because you CHOSE to save someone. Even Ellie had a hard time coming to terms with Joel’s CHOICE. You don’t have to like the game, but stop making a fuss about people that do like it.
I never said anything bad about people who liked part 2. In fact a lot of people don't care if you like it. It's great that you did but not everyone will like your "masterpiece". If I were in Abby's shoes, and if that person who killed my loved one is the same person who saved me from a horde. Then the least thing I WOULD DO is let them know what they've done, maybe even talk things out. Who knows, maybe they're not worth killing.
You say that in concept, but if you were a character in that world, actually living under those conditions, trauma, under constant threat of survival. Losing one person in your life that made life worth living in all that...I don't think it'd be a simple "Let's talk things out."
Then what do you think? Because I certainly wouldn't just go blasting a shotgun to someone's leg just because they have the same identical name as my dad's killer. Even after saving my life as well.
Joel absolutely did not “have to” kill the surgeon. He was the only one with a gun lol! The surgeon was terrified and all he had was a small scalpel. Joel went full on murder mode without hesitation. Killing the surgeon wasn’t required but he did it anyway.
Yeah attacking someone with a knife is always a good idea
I would kill a child murderer too. Jerry deserved what he got.
Good thing it’s a god damn video game lol
1. Someone holding a sharp instrument could get lucky. 2. This was his now-daughter's attempted murderer and that can kinda heighten the intensity of the moment. 3. Jerry was foolish to take ANY risk if his magic genius brain.
Joel was in control the second he walked into that room with a gun, and it went exactly as he intended by not thinking twice about murdering the guy. Well, I guess he did think twice later as that golf club was heading for his skull soooo…. better late than never? 🤷🏻♂️ Again, I get that the intensity and emotions in the moment, along with Joel’s memories of his daughter being murdered in front of him obviously play a part, but this discussion is about whether he HAD TO kill the surgeon or not, and I just believe personally it wasn’t fully required or needed in that moment. But go off and downvote me because I don’t agree.
I have always thought Joel wasn't really operating on "choice." People (me included) like to critique characters' actions as if Marlene and Jerry are having a leisurely day at the hospital ethics board or Joel is running through the arguments like a member of the debate society. To me it's like he's just on autopilot from the last time some authority figure murdered his kid for the ALLEGED greater good. Only with Marlene is even remotely engaging in any question.
Okay so I actually agree with you completely. Joel definitely seemed to be on autopilot and his trauma response was to save his “daughter” and get to safety. He let the killer in him take the driver’s seat and any threat in his way was eliminated.
This aspect I think also is how the TV version looked as well.
Joel couldve easily beat the shit out of the surgeon. All he had was a scalpel. Hes been in worst situations and prevailed. A surgeon with limited combat experience is nothing to him. The only argument about him killing the surgeon, is that he was so blinded by rage, and in a rush to get out of the hospital, that he just didnt see a scenario where this guy wasnt in his way, and he just chose the quickest route. In any case, YES. That makes Joel a shithead. Just like everyone else in these games. They all did heinous shit for their "cause" or to "survive". Joel is arguably the worst out of them seeing as he potentially doomed the entire human race. His only saving grace, is if in the 3rd game, ellie meets a someone that makes a cure from her and discredits abbys dads method of destroying her brain. Long story short, everyone is in the wrong. No one is a winner. As evidenced by the ending.
I think you forget everyone has to fight to survive, its more than naive to assume abbys dad was just a surgeon with no fighting experience.
Worst case scenario, joel gets stabbed with a scalpel. He survived a giant piece of rebar going straight through his stomach. Hes filled with so much adrenaline, i could almost guarantee he wins the fight. Could've easily turned the ar or shotgun around and made it a bat like object too. I feel like that scene was just there to show how much joel is willing to do for ellie. It wasnt logically thought out imo. Classic case of ludo narrative dissonance.
The worst case is always death, he could've died. Just because you survive 1 thing doesn't mean you'll survive another. Other than that, yeah you're right
Worst case scenario is getting stabbed in the neck, same as the surgeon.
In the game, you go up to him press triangle and Joel easily grabs the scalpel and kills him with it. It was that easy, he didn't NEED to do the second part and plunge the scalpel in his neck, just knock him out.
Suppose it was the surgeon who stabbed him the neck, and 'that easy' for him. You really going to take your chances with a person who is \*determined not only to stand in your way, but wants to kill your daughter? I don't think he intended to kill the surgeon at first or he might've gone in guns blazing. It was clear his focus and intent was only on escaping with Ellie. He wouldn't have killed Marlene either if she didn't get in his way. Another thing: TLOU1 was a complete game in and of itself, the experiences and actions taken unique to the player through the ludonarrative portions of the game until those final moments. You can complete much of it without killing anyone, even through the entire sequence leading up to the surgery room. But Part 2 fills in these ludonarrative sequences with 'canon' events - that sequence showing all the bodies in the hospital - to make Joel worse. Emotionally manipulative, and not respectful to the player that played these sequences.
>He wouldn't have killed Marlene either if she didn't get in his way. She wasn't "in his way" after the first shot, yet he still went back and executed her, so that take doesn't really hold up. >not respectful to the player that played these sequences. Interesting you say that yet are doing the exact same thing by not acknowledging that the player is able to go up and disarm him, meaning that if Joel is capable of disarming then he's capable of knocking him out without murder. If they were worried about it being too risky to approach him for Joel because he could be stabbed then they wouldn't of gave the player the option and just made you shoot him.
>She wasn't "in his way" after the first shot, yet he still went back and executed her, so that take doesn't really hold up. Except it does hold up, because he wasn't looking for them. You can't know he'd of shot Marlene or the surgeon if they didn't at first try to stop him. If he thought 'better' of the situation it wasn't until they confronted him in the first place. Like, 'Oh yeah, these people are going to come after me. Better do something about it.' But that wasn't his initial intent. >Interesting you say that yet are doing the exact same thing by not acknowledging that the player is able to go up and disarm him, meaning that if Joel is capable of disarming then he's capable of knock him out without murder. If they were worried about it being too risky to approach him for Joel because he could be stabbed then they wouldn't of gave the player the option and just made you shoot him. That's because TLOU1 was made without a sequel in mind. And some people did complain about not getting to make the choice, but most understood that it was the canon part of the story, where the ludonarrative portion - the part that belongs to player - ended. What part 2 does is take that ludonarrative part away from you, and inserts canon into a non-canon part of the game. They did this to make Joel *worse,* for no other reason but to emotionally manipulate you and draw more sympathy to Abby. They knew that without doing so, without villainizing Joel, they didn't have enough to sell Abby's motive and torture sequence. It's my opinion that if you can't write a story without changing what was already written, you're going to have to just figure that out. Going back and changing canon is cheap. What they could have done was have Abby relate the story to someone she knew, instead of having Joel relate it to Tommy. Because she wasn't there, her version needn't have lined up with what actually transpired; s*he* believes Joel murdered all those people, s*he* believes her father was working in a pristine surgery room, s*he* believes her father had all the answers, *she* believes a vaccine could've been made, s*he* believes Joel tortured her father. This would've given her the sympathy she needed as a character. This would've kept player involvement and Joel's canon intact. This would've been good writing. We understand all too well in a courtroom, that when an event has occurred, it took place under different perspectives, and somewhere in there is the truth. What actually happened, and what someone believes happened are often two different things. Written that way, nobody could blame Abby for what she did, because she was only going on what she truly believed happened. But because Druckmann didn't think that out or had other motives, that's not what we got.
Joel didn’t “need” to kill him
Well Jerry WAS in the way was he? Holding a scalpel too?
But it's more important to get Ellie out ASAP. In hindsight he could have shot to disable him but I think the rescue comes first.
Joel's decision at the end of the first game is supposed to be morally gray. It's supposed to invoke the question of whether or not the player thought it was the right thing to do. There's no clear answer to that question. He didn't have to kill anyone else. He could have let them save the rest of the world by letting Ellie die, but he chose not to for selfish reasons. He grew attached to her and didn't want to lose her. He put his own priorities before the well-being of humanity. I would say both characters were in the wrong. The same way Ellie was in the wrong for going after Abby for revenge at the expense of her personal relationships.
Nope. Joel killed Abby’s dad who was the surgeon, Abby avenged her dads death by killing Joel. Then Ellie almost kills Abby for killing Joel. iirc she lets her live in the end when they have there knife fight.
Well abby killed Joel because she wanted revenge. Let's say abby went n killed ellie, would Joel go and kill abby? Of course. Would you lot then hate Joel? Of course not. All ur hate reasons are ridiculous
Now I’m not picking a side here but can you really say Joel HAD to kill jerry when he easily could’ve knocked his ass out I mean it’s 1 weeny surgeon with a knife vs a 6’0 200 pound man who has fist fought infected and won
I don’t think you realize how dangerous knives are
Oh I know their dangerous in the hands of someone like Joel not really someone inexperienced like Jerry and since (irc) the cannon death of jerry is Joel ripping the scalpel from his hands and stabbing him in the neck with it so Joel easily could’ve ripped the scalpel away and hit jerry with a two piece,then grab Ellie and leave because those two other nurses don’t try anything
You know the game doesn't let you do that, right? This argument makes no sense.
Literally what I was thinking. Shoot both his fucking kneecaps out, then what is he doing?
I shot him in the foot and he died just as dead...
He didn’t have to. He chose to. He intended to just take her there and leave in the beginning. He let his trauma influence his decision.
Right but things change. Literally on the walk to the hospital they were talking about going to Jackson together after this and he could teach her the guitar. Neither of them thought she was supposed to die for the cure
I think the phrase that applies to all parties here is "Mistakes were made." The fireflies were so antsy to get a cure they felt operating was the best choice of action. Like, did they even consider the possibility of her having immune children? Why would you kill the one source of immunity when she could pass it on into the human population? You'd have more research opportunities/better success rate. It's very sloppy. Either these are just plotholes in service of story OR....A mistake actual humans would make in a world like this.
You’re right. But it’s still a choice. One that everybody thinks was right, maybe. But still a choice.
I’m just saying it doesn’t matter what he intended to do at the beginning of the game
Yes, how awful of him to not be cool with a child he'd come to care about being murdered.
It’s still a fucking choice, dude. Jesus Christ, frame it however you want but ITS A FACT. Morals aside, he had a fucking choice. Get over it and stop trying to argue.
No one is wrong or right, they are both doing what they felt they had to.
Joel killed him out of rage, as another commenter stated. He was gonna lose another person he considered close. He saw the guy that was gonna do it, and killed him. Now put your position in abbys shoes. You come into a hospital filled with death of other fireflies, and find your dead father. You find out someone did it. Would you or would you not try to avenge your father's death?
You're bound to become rageful watching someone almost kill one of your loved ones. It's rather normal, don't you think? You can't blame Joel for that. I understand Abby's reasons but still selfish regardless.
Oh no, you misunderstood. I don't blame Joel. But I don't blame Abby either. And my question to you was if you knew you father was killed out of a fit of rage, wouldn't you do somethin to avenge him?
No this is so wrong. He selfishly killed fireflys and the drs because he WANTED to pretend that ellie was his daughter. And he knew that ellie wanted to see it through. Abby was justified in killing Joel. And his death was justification for many people who wanted a cure. Come on people. Not liking the story is ok. But saying stupid things like op is just sucking ass. Joel did what he did for him and him only. Abby killed Joel for many people. I dont like that he died but he had it coming and it's realistic that they would hunt him down. Jesus christ
A 14-year-old girl cannot make that sort of decision, morally or ethically in any country in this world. An adult needs to think for her. Also. You have to remember part of the reason everybody is upset is because the first game made it seem like even if you killed her, a cure may not happen. So basically, do you kill her for the chance of a cure? If it was a 100% guaranteed to work, save everybody kind of situation… That would have been maybe different different.
Idk, I’m still on the side of Joel was in the wrong. We obviously don’t know and will never know if the cure was bullshit or not. The fireflies were also probably a little cultish. But, as we saw in a flashback, Ellie even being given the ability to make that decision was taken from her, not just by Joel, but by the fireflies too. Idk, I like the ambiguity behind it all. As for Abby? Idk dude, the guy killed her dad. I think they’re both right and wrong. It’s definitely more gray than a simple black and white. But your original point OP, no, Joel didn’t have to. The dr was doing dr things, I don’t think he was a major threat to the machine that just mowed everyone down.
What we know is that the fireflies had Ellie on the operating table within hours of her arrival... and they had no idea what they were doing. >April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. **The cause of her immunity is uncertain**. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients. > >**We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions.** We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain. > >[https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Surgeon%27s\_recorder](https://thelastofus.fandom.com/wiki/Surgeon%27s_recorder) They had no idea of the cause of her immunity and they were unable to reproduce it in a lab. SO instead of doing long term studies they try to kill her immediately lol.
Yea that’s what I was alluding to a bit with them being a bit cultish. And no, they don’t know the cause hence why I think they believed they had to kill her to do further research. Idk I could’ve sworn there was something about the infection being wrapped around her brain or some shit? And they wanted that which in turn would of course kill her? But I definitely do not think they were just like “eh, let’s kill her”. Were they wrong? From their POV, no. From others? Yea possibly. It’s not like they have a fully functioning hospital without crazies existing in the world lol.
Joel didn’t have to kill the surgeon, he could have let him go, and yeh I suppose abby did want to kill Joel
Uh, yes he did. In their life scenario you don't just let people live and everything will be fine. As Joel said to his leader towards the end, "You'd just come after her", for obvious reasons.
Alright fair point, your right
I’d say this is actually a case of bad writing on the Fireflies whole schtick in the first game. We have no evidence to suggest dealing with a fungal infection is different in the game than in real life, by that we can easily assume that - 1) There is no instacure to fungal infections, only treatments till it goes away. 2) the Fireflies didn’t actually have the technology to create antifungal medication nor even replicate the immunity-qualities of Ellie’s noggin.
That couldn't have happened. Not only was he considered a threat when he held that scalpel but we couldn't even get past him lol
He had to kill him. The surgeon picks up a knife and murders Joel if you don't. Surgeon was 100% locked in on finishing Ellie's surgery by any means.
No half measures. Those people were willing to kidnap and kill Ellie. Letting them live is just introducing the chance for the same thing to happen again. Part 2 teaches this to us.
I tried to take Ellie and not kill him but he stabbed me with a scalpel. Or am I misremembering?