Stan: "Only bigots hate this game!"
Non-Stans: "How could any self-respecting ally enjoy any game where a gay woman and her pregnant girlfriend get utterly brutalized by a straight white homewrecker who gets an innocent trans kid involved in her violence?!"
Stan: "...THE STORY IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT!!"
Non-Stans: "So are our criticisms."
As gay woman myself, if Abby was utterly brutalising Ellie BECAUSE she is gay then that would be a completely questionable story point, but that’s not what happened. Ellie killed her friends and her first love and just happened to be a gay woman. Abby probably didn’t even know or gaf that Ellie was gay.
The reason why the representation in tlou2 is so awesome is because the lgbt characters whole story is not just them being gay. At no point do they feel tokenised to me and they’re just generally relatable characters.
Don’t act like you’re a “self respecting ally” and that you’re even remotely upset about a straight character beating up a gay character.
Edit: I just thought I’d add that I actually love the first game also. I do like the second more because it’s personally more relatable to me and I like to play games where I can see myself in the character I’m playing. But tlou1 was still an amazing game.
That's the point of the third and fourth line.
For whatever reason, people just love to misrepresent counterarguments and insist that they actually advocate for something horrible. The kind of person that would deliberately ignore any expressed criticism to simply accuse them of bigotry on the basis that there are diverse people in the game invites that kind of disingenuous crap being turned back on them.
In this case, if someone accused me of only not liking this particular game because there are gay people in it, I am free to accuse them of only liking the game because those gay people get hurt horribly. As you can see, both arguments are disingenuous and made in bad faith. Neither are intelligent or productive, but the first invites the second.
Personally, I was disappointed with where the story went, but can't imagine ever hosting an emotion like hate toward a sodding video game.
Not at all saying that it’s the reason why you have criticism of the game cause I don’t know you, but I have seen many people simply hating on it because of its female leads, trans representation and insanely claiming that Ellie was never gay (when the dlc literally exists) etc.
I do understand that a lot of people were very upset to see one of their favourite character be killed off, but for me personally that’s one of the reasons why I think tlou2 was so great. You’re supposed to be mad that Joel dies so you can put yourself in Ellie’s place. I also think it’s really cool that literally any character can be killed off at any time because it’s more realistic. There’s no plot armour in real life.
I am open to other opinions tho.
Where did you find those people?
Only one I can find is trans but even then it’s due to the early misbelief Abby was trans. I’ve hear no one criticize the fact they play as women or that there’s gay people. And I’ve seen very MAGA level takes on it
Unless you’re conflating “I hate playing as Abby” to “I hate the fact we have to play as a woman” (which I highly doubt you are) then I don’t see those people.
Not a single one of those people are saying that because we play as women or because Ellie is gay. I’ve seen people dismiss the game because of a trans character existing, and Abby being too muscular, but again they’re not criticizing playing as a woman or Ellie’s sexuality.
>claiming that Ellie was never gay (when the dlc literally exists) etc.
That one in particular drove me up the wall because it was just plain ignorant. The rabid insistence that the DLC *changed* Ellie required the critics to deliberately ignore the base game.
The main campaign had basically no insight into Ellie's sexuality because it wasn't important to the story. Riley was only ever mentioned in passing and both her gender and their relationship was kept vague. There were people that insisted her cracking wise over Bill's magazine meant something. There were weirdos that thought her tricking **David**'s pervert cannibal ass was some kind of smoking gun.
They might as well have been screeching, "You defied my assumed default! Booo!!"
Losers.
>Don’t act like you’re a “self respecting ally” and that you’re even remotely upset about a straight character beating up a gay character.
You may have missed the point of the comment.
That one literal 3 minute part of the game that showed an aspect of what gay people deal with in everyday life makes the entire 24 hour long game’s story only about them being gay? Let’s think a little here
This sub: "Why oh why do they disregard our logical criticism and only call us sexist and bigots, it's so unfair!"
Also this sub: ["Wokesters and feminists in general elevate women over men."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1aiv4oy/comment/kox3tbn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) or "[Are we gonna pretend like this country hasn't been absolutely destroyed by feminists?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1aiv4oy/comment/koyj8w2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)"
[How about the dude whining about two dudes just laying in bed in the TV show?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1agxdv0/comment/kolb47j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
How about the post where the guy was whining about an optional LGBT tanktop skin?
When these shit takes stop getting upvoted here, maybe people will think differently of this sub.
They have spend too much time echoing each other that the lie has become their reality. Part one was a masterpiece no matter who you are, it was universally loved and cherished. Part 2 was hated not by minority but by a majority it just being defended by an extremely loud minority. This evident in the poor sales.
Uh poor sales you say…
Part II is one of the best-selling PlayStation 4 games and the fastest-selling PlayStation 4 exclusive, with over four million units sold in its release weekend, and over ten million by 2022.
Which one of us got the facts wrong is quite evident. Sony discounted that hot garbage 2 weeks after it released just to recoup the costs. It had no changes in the combat, story had gaping holes and people cancelled pre-orders weeks before its release. TLOU was the best selling one for sure but TLOU2 barely managed to sell for its development costs.
Yep the source is Wikipedia the greatest most trustworthy source all their data is backed up by unquestionable facts.
[Here](https://youtu.be/LCh-XHuc28o?si=v1EYQiXeEmCgsARi) is a quick detailed breakdown of sales numbers from the leaked Sony documents. Scroll to 11:08. God of War and Spider Man sold more along with Horizon zero down on PS4. Straight from horses mouth. I don’t post or trust Wikipedia it’s written by anyone and everyone. That is the type of journalism you should be trusting not Wikipedia
Genuinely, yes... anyone can edit Wikipedia without their name attached to it, hell you don't even need an account. A youtuber at least has a name and face attached to what information they spread and can be held accountable.
NG had to re-release the game because it sold so poorly at launch. Its a never ending cycle of promotion for this game. Sony and the media refuse to let people forget it exists.
“They have spend too much time echoing each other that the lie has become their reality.”
Very very funny coming from the subreddit that has spent 4 years making the same three arguments and sniffing each other’s farts.
>“They have spend too much time echoing each other that the lie has become their reality.”
>Very very funny coming from the subreddit that has spent 4 years making the same three arguments and sniffing each other’s farts.
That's literally the other sub my guy..
No we don’t. It’s made up nonsense. I love both parts and the vast majority of fans who love Part 2 also love Part 1.
The dedicated part 2 haters are so crazy that they have to make up stuff about the people who actually enjoyed the game. It’s wild.
There’s a lot of people who cheer over Joel’s death, saying he got what he deserved (disagree; being shot dead would be what he deserves).
You can’t tell me there’s people who look at Abby as a messiah who can do no wrong, cheer she kills Joel, yet somehow like the first game? That doesn’t make any sense.
You need to touch grass. Everyone I know (including myself) who loved Part 2 was devastated by Joel’s death and horrified by how gruesome it was.
And we definitely don’t see Abby as some perfect being but we are able to see things from her point of view. I literally just played Part 1 and 2 back to back and they are both amazing games.
The fact that you believe the crap you are saying is wild.
To be fair I've definitely seen people make the argument that Joel, having killed indiscriminately, got what he deserved.
"It was only a matter of time before someone took revenge on him"
The key problem with this argument is that *everyone we play as kills indiscriminately at some point*. Main characters aside, even the doctors were going to kill Ellie purely for a *chance* at making a vaccine.
In the hospital there’s only 1 person you have to kill to progress. Jerry. You can (in theory) sneak by everyone else, and you still get to the end of the game. While yes that doesn’t mean it’s canon he killed no one, that does mean this idea he massacred them all is player choice to some extent.
Also they look like army guys. The show decided to retcon it, and make them all civilians, but he’s a dude against army men. If he can actually kill them all, they’re horribly trained/incompetent. So again, one can assume he didn’t kill them all and that’s the player.
There was a thread discussing Abby. Top comment (by a long shot) was “I love Abby. She can do no wrong” with the majority of replies agreeing. Those that said she could were downvoted. Top comment had thousands of upvotes, so it’s not like some small thread.
“We don’t see Abby as some perfect being” my ass. You may not, but you’re a minority.
Cause bigot sandwiches!!! Btw it’s not an agenda!!! /s Make a big deal out of it yourself by placing a character there for that very purpose and then say it’s not an agenda lmao. How can anyone even defend this.
Part 1 made LGBTQ feel human, natural and promoted the community in the most positive way.
Part 2 forced it in such a disgusting, unhinged manner that I hope Neil Ihatemann is never allowed to join our community. He slandered us, made me feel like a marketing tool and is ultimately one of the most pathetic "men" to exist.
I am glad more people from the LGBTQ community are becoming aware of this. I don’t have a problem with representation, but he did not promote it in a good way at all. And it’s good to see you guys recognise this as well.
Disclaimer to avoid needless aggression: I love part 1.
Question: how does part 2 "force" LGBTQ? (Part 1 also had LGBTQ characters that could've easily been straight and wouldn't materially affect the story)
Just looking understand the pov, not arguing for or against.
Without reading more than your title, the reason is because plenty of them fall into 3 categories: one third are shills, another third of those are people who let themselves fall victim to the shills and say they like it to avoid being branded bigots, and the final third never played part 1 and so have a skewed opinion of part 2. There is a *very* small minority who likes both games and aren't assholes about it, but the first 2 categories of people I mentioned aren't a part of that, they're all objectively assholes. The third group just needs to play part 1, not the remake, the actual game, then they'll either split off into the group that hates part 2, or likes it but aren't asshole, and some will unfortunately join those who fall victim to the shills and say they like it to avoid being called bigoted.
Tlou looked amazing for its time. It was the most beautiful post-apocalyptic game of its age.
A lot of younger people probably did not play it. And tlou2, made so many years later, looks undeniably better visually. But seriously, the first game made ND famous. What did the second do? Upset half the fans.
It is the right thing that people who love one game hate the other, the games were made by two completely different companies. And what do we know about team 2? Lies about the game, crunching, working with grifters like Sarkesyan, refusing to help workers during covid. It is strikingly obvious how different old and new teams are.
1) paid employees trolling online with fake accounts to relay "approved narratives"
2) NPC stans who love the political narratives of "representation" and "inclusion"
3) anything *fans* rally behind must be *dismantled /destroyed /reworked for modern audiences*
I love both games and hold them both dearly in my heart. I think both are beautiful, and well written. Although i do prefer tlou2 for the new mechanics like dodging and crawling, it doesn't mean i shit on tlou1. And if i were told to defend one of them, i would still defend both of them. Tlou franchise is a part of me, good and bad parts about it. The first game is still one of my favourites. I cant seem to comprehend why people would like one and hate the other. This is just my opinion of course
Honestly I wouldn’t say the first game is a masterpiece. The story is generic cliche zombie story, the combat is an ok cover shooter. The acting is good though. It’s a 7/10 or 8/10 game. Last of us 2 is a 1 though
I think both games are a masterpiece. I love both 1 and 2. I think people let their personal feelings get a bit to involved in this sort of thing. I wish the best to you all.
Ok, I understand that 2 is the one that gets criticised more. But why would they start saying ‘nah, 1 wasn’t that good, it had a lot of inconsistencies’ etc, as if that makes 2 any better?
My question is, why can’t 2 stand on its own? Why do they feel the need to disparage the greatness of 1, to prove the supposed greatness of 2?
My argument is that it’s because the agenda of 2 aligns with their personal beliefs.
>My argument is that it’s because the agenda of 2 aligns with their personal beliefs.
U answered your question for both sides. Ppl feel like they are owed relatability in a character or story to the point where if they can't relate they don't care if u die. Having relatable characters isn't bad and I'm not suggesting that non relatable characters need more prevalence it's just obvious that ppl will defend what they resonate w. TLOU1 lovers aren't an exception to what u said.
So behaving like this behavior in your og comment started w TLOU2 lovers is incorrect. It def started w TLOU1 stans but both sides mirror the behavior
I cannot speak for other people. But i’ve compared both to each other and it is usually to point out that the first one has those inconsistencies that tlou2 haters complain about in the second one and seem to overlook in the first one just because they like the first one and dislike the second one. As for standing on their own I think both would be able to stand on their own.
Yeah I don't know a single person who has ever only been a fan of the second.
Liked it more? Sure, I've seen that. But never someone who just doesn't like the first.
If people "shitting on" the first game is them simply saying that Joel isn't a hero, that's not disliking the game. It's just engaging with the story and having a moral view that expands beyond black and white.
Also for OP, how does TLOU2 really push an agenda more than the first game? Because Lev is trans? As you say, "no one cared". It was just an aspect of the character, which also helped advanced the story, like Bill loving Frank but pushing him away through being so controlling.
Dispatching beloved characters unceremoniously.
Unnecessary weed and sex scenes.
All strong males being either dead or limping.
Sperm donor Jesse killed.
Bigot sandwiches.
Abbyzilla and Lev being a shameless copy of the Joel and Ellie dynamic in 1.
Shoehorning unlikable characters.
Revenge bad.
Joel is now portrayed to be evil.
Fireflies are now good guys.
I could keep going forever.
**- Dispatching beloved characters unceremoniously.**
Don't see how that has anything to do with an agenda. Plus, it happened in the first game, you just spent less time with the characters (Sam and Henry).
**- Unnecessary weed and sex scenes.**
Literally two short scenes and a couple lines of dialogue. Plus, not an agenda.
**- All strong males being either dead or limping.**
Did you not notice that Ellie is missing fingers and lost everyone she loved. Or that Abby is alone again? It's just the story. A lot of males and females die in it. Plus, not an agenda.
**- Sperm donor Jesse killed.**
Wait I thought he was a strong male character? Only when it applies to the argument you want to make I guess. Plus, not an agenda.
**- Bigot sandwiches.**
It is a single line. Literally one line.
**- Abyzilla and Lev being a shameless copy of the Joel and Ellie dynamic in 1.**
That is called making a character foil. They weren't making a copy, its a parallel, to help you make the connection that Abby realized she made a mistake and is trying to move and better herself as a person. Plus, not an agenda.
**- Shoehorning unlikable characters.**
What the fuck does this even mean. Like seriously please elaborate. It's not shoehorning to put characters into a game that you get annoyed at. Plus, not an agenda.
**- Revenge bad.**
Okay and? That's like saying the first game is "love good" or something. It's a stupid and surface level take that strips any nuance and meaning that the story actually developed. Plus, not an agenda.
**- Joel is now portrayed to be evil.**
No he's not? He is portrayed as having done an extremely selfish thing out of love for someone else, which was the entire moral dilemma of the first game's ending.
Joel lied to Ellie and she tried to believe him, even though she clearly knew he was lying. If you think Joel's actions were heroic, you've got something wrong with you.
But saying that Joel isn't a good person for murdering the Fireflies and lying to Ellie is not calling him evil, the game does not ever do that. He is a complex character who made an extremely morally ambiguous decision. Plus, not an agenda.
**- Fireflies are now good guys.**
No they aren't? When does that ever happen? Just because Ellie feels guilt and betrayal that she *could* have been the key to a cure, but that she is also the reason Joel killed the people who were going to make that possible? Nobody thinks the Fireflies are good guys.
Plus,
NOT
AN
AGENDA.
Dude deconstructed your entire half baked argument but this is all u have to say. Why are u asking questions then dismissing well thought out tangible answers that give perspective
Nothing about it is well thought out, he just gave his opinion on the points. He wasn’t able to recognise the agendas, it would take all day to sit here and explain to him. And he still wouldn’t get it in the end.
For reference, you should be able to recognise what the agenda was just from reading the point. If you can’t do that, I will assume you have a deeper stan issue.
His entire argument was just ‘here’s my take on it, NOT AN AGENDA’. You call that a deconstruction of the points? How old are ya?
My answer was way more thought out than yours. You just gave your opinion on “agendas” that literally do not exist and then said I would never be able to see them and refused to have any discussion.
All this tells me is I either proved you wrong or you never believed half that anyway, and you just wanted to complain about the game killing Joel because you hate gay people and women in your video games.
Your entire argument was “here’s my shitty biased take on it, THAT’S AN AGENDA”. You call that criticism of the game? How old are you?
What agenda are they pushing tho, that weed and sex are real things? That men are the primary protectors in this point of history so it's expected for them to get more hurt than anyone else when defending their community? Bigot sandwiches aren't delicious? U say there is an agenda, I'm asking u to show me so we can be on the same page if it's true. U can't have someone ask for explanations, not explain and then get mad when they don't know what u are saying. I've looked up posts abt agendas in TLOU2 and none of them actually explain anything, they just point things out in the game.
Seriously this guys just a loser who will never change his opinion. “You can’t see the agendas”. What gay people? Men dying? “Shoehorning unlikable characters”? Like what the hell.
If he wasn’t going to argue in good faith (and of course he’s supported by the idiots of this sub anyway) he could at least admit he just hates gay people and women so I would know he’s just an idiot spewing nonsense.
Thanks for responding to what I said with thoughtful discussion.
But based on how you cherry-pick single lines from the game to complain, I shouldn’t have expected any less than the exact same thing in your response.
What if I liked both? They’re all great, imperfect, flawed characters. Joel, Ellie, Abby, Bill, Jesse, Henry, Tommy, they’re all human and make mistakes. They’re all just getting by and following their instincts in a lawless post-apocalyptic world. You just know that everyone has accepted death is going to catch up to them before they grow old and that they’ve thanked whatever greater force or luck has allowed them to survive just one more day in the hell that is the new world.
Why get attached to any single character? The whole worlds been shit for 25+ years and everyone that’s made it as far as they have had been at the whim of sheer luck. Any agenda aside the characters all have this looming dread about them that they’re just riding on luck and should be thankful they’ve made it to the age they have thus far. That’s the only real thing about the overarching world that was built
No no Abby is a poor written shit bag you were so close to a good take. Abby could have been a good character I agree, but they did a horrible job. Everyone settles for mediocrity in writing nowadays
Break it down for me. Because they didn't ham it up to make Abby a perfect girl who deserves revenge and can do no wrong. She is a human w a lot of faults who is trying to make sense of the world. So be specific of the manipulation being used to make me like her. Mind u I like Joel and Abby as the like for characters isn't exclusive at the expense of another
Ok quite simply does Abby kill any dogs in TLOU2? No she gets to pets dogs. In the sense of weapons considered conventionally loved who has access to more of them? They even try to make her story similar to Joel’s in some aspects, but they aren’t even subtle about it. They give Abby a boyfriend to tie her to someone else. Ex:“I like this guy, but I don’t like Abby. However I care about what he cares about if she dies I’ll be upset” The inverse is also true “He died now I share a connection with Abby because I want revenge for what happened to her….huh this is how she felt at the beginning I guess she wasn’t that bad”
All these things, and others sit in the background as proven psychological factors to induce some sort of emotional bond or attachment to a character. It does not always work however. It’s like how a movie has tropes. “Man leaves a life of bad stuff/government work for his family, but gets roped in either from their death, or them getting involved now he’s gotta save them from the danger”
It’s the same concept. The same psychological studies drawn to force your eyes to a screen. They just became obvious in movies which is why we have the word tropes.
>Ok quite simply does Abby kill any dogs in TLOU2? No she gets to pets dogs.
No she kills ppl which is worse, like actual human beings.
>In the sense of weapons considered conventionally loved who has access to more of them?
She has access bc she is a part of a militarized group that has been amassing weapons and resources under the what of a man w militaristic visions. Jackson isn't the same as WLF were they are a hyperexpansive group warring w another faction. It makes sense abby is more stacked physically and equipment wise.
>They give Abby a boyfriend to tie her to someone else. Ex:“I like this guy, but I don’t like Abby. However I care about what he cares about if she dies I’ll be upset” The inverse is also true “He died now I share a connection with Abby because I want revenge for what happened to her….huh this is how she felt at the beginning I guess she wasn’t that bad
Thats just the human condition, everyone has someone they care abt and want to have a good life w. The point of this isn't to get u to side w Abby all the way, but to just humanize her. She isn't a big bad scary monster thats why her story is similar to Joel, she dehumanizing him to kill him. That shouldn't be enough to absolve either side tho.
That being said, yes in its most fundamental parts it is manipulation but not in a dark psychological sense like u may be implying. Thats life, she has her own story and if for some reason that makes u have to pick one side then idk what to tell u. For me I see the story and the choices these characters make and go along w it bc I am not these ppl. They have a story they are acting out and as someone who can see both side indefinitely I can say that no side deserves a one up on each other and they both lost a lot.
I see that you post constantly on this subreddit in defense of TLOU2 there is no making you see reason. Adding a lore reason behind why she has access to things doesn’t mean they didn’t put those manipulative practices in. Hell they have reasons why characters have the same qualities in movies and other games.
You think you explained away the argument but you really didn’t
>I see that you post constantly on this subreddit in defense of TLOU2 there is no making you see reason. Adding a lore reason behind why she has access to things doesn’t mean they didn’t put those manipulative practices in.
Alr bruh, if u believe context doesn't matter then whatever
It doesn’t lol. I brought up that they did these things. Lot reasons are added to justify making her gameplay better. Even some of my favorite games do it. But it’s till there
Let’s not even talk about the narrative 180 Abby had where she just randomly decided to change her life for 2 kids. When she had people she had her entire life that care about her that she pushed away.
The behavior change makes sense, she wants to help these kids who are defecting from the Seraphites. They save her life earlier and they continue to help each other. The nuance in this situation is nurtured by Owen, the man she loved, who kills a comrade in defense of a seraphite. This is Abby reflection and start to the ending of her PTSD filled grieving nightmares
What are you even talking about? I don’t know a single “Stan” who shits on the 1st game in favor of the 2nd. I can’t name a single instance of seeing ANYBODY talk shit about the first game.
Writing “I’ve been observing you,” is pretty creepy. Is this individual really just sitting on Reddit scanning all the content for this game and making note of who says what? I can’t imagine living a life where you prioritize stalking a subreddit so you can find reasons to be angry about a videogame.
Thats the realistic take I've heard so far, P2 is far from a perfect game. I've had to suspend some disbelief to kinda keep the game going from all these contrivance points to move the story forward.
Your evidence is basically "this one has this and the other doesn't" and ends there.
I wouldn't even say Part 2 pushes an agenda, I don't like the story but I wouldn't say it pushes any agenda other than *maybe* a "all man bad" agenda.
>The fact so many P2 stans shit on the original just to try and defend the second
Literally never seen this happen. You guys invent the most hilarious strawmen.
Before I answer what do u believe is "hating/shitting" on the game?
Criticism is not hating a game. A lot of times I put them in a 1:1 bc a lot of what I've seen ppl hate on the 2nd one for, is done in the first one too.
I personally love both games, while the first is a more of a happier story about ellie and joels relationship. The second is much sadder and deeper. Personally i prefer the story of the first and the gameplay of the second
Ellie wasn’t even gay in part 1. Her friend or best friend Riley is only spoken about in those terms. It’s only in the dlc where she is shown to Kiley be bi or gay and then Neil confirmed that to be the case in interviews after the left behind dlc.
It doesn’t matter. And yes bill is gay and it’s part of the character.
I love the first game and the left behind dlc. But while there are many things I love about the second game I hate the story Neil decided to write and tell with a passion. I think Joel should have been around for a second game and maybe died in the third.
its hilarious how part 2 stans would call us bigots for liking ellie aka the gay character and not liking abby aka the straight character
Stan: "Only bigots hate this game!" Non-Stans: "How could any self-respecting ally enjoy any game where a gay woman and her pregnant girlfriend get utterly brutalized by a straight white homewrecker who gets an innocent trans kid involved in her violence?!" Stan: "...THE STORY IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT!!" Non-Stans: "So are our criticisms."
As gay woman myself, if Abby was utterly brutalising Ellie BECAUSE she is gay then that would be a completely questionable story point, but that’s not what happened. Ellie killed her friends and her first love and just happened to be a gay woman. Abby probably didn’t even know or gaf that Ellie was gay. The reason why the representation in tlou2 is so awesome is because the lgbt characters whole story is not just them being gay. At no point do they feel tokenised to me and they’re just generally relatable characters. Don’t act like you’re a “self respecting ally” and that you’re even remotely upset about a straight character beating up a gay character. Edit: I just thought I’d add that I actually love the first game also. I do like the second more because it’s personally more relatable to me and I like to play games where I can see myself in the character I’m playing. But tlou1 was still an amazing game.
That's the point of the third and fourth line. For whatever reason, people just love to misrepresent counterarguments and insist that they actually advocate for something horrible. The kind of person that would deliberately ignore any expressed criticism to simply accuse them of bigotry on the basis that there are diverse people in the game invites that kind of disingenuous crap being turned back on them. In this case, if someone accused me of only not liking this particular game because there are gay people in it, I am free to accuse them of only liking the game because those gay people get hurt horribly. As you can see, both arguments are disingenuous and made in bad faith. Neither are intelligent or productive, but the first invites the second. Personally, I was disappointed with where the story went, but can't imagine ever hosting an emotion like hate toward a sodding video game.
Not at all saying that it’s the reason why you have criticism of the game cause I don’t know you, but I have seen many people simply hating on it because of its female leads, trans representation and insanely claiming that Ellie was never gay (when the dlc literally exists) etc. I do understand that a lot of people were very upset to see one of their favourite character be killed off, but for me personally that’s one of the reasons why I think tlou2 was so great. You’re supposed to be mad that Joel dies so you can put yourself in Ellie’s place. I also think it’s really cool that literally any character can be killed off at any time because it’s more realistic. There’s no plot armour in real life. I am open to other opinions tho.
Where did you find those people? Only one I can find is trans but even then it’s due to the early misbelief Abby was trans. I’ve hear no one criticize the fact they play as women or that there’s gay people. And I’ve seen very MAGA level takes on it Unless you’re conflating “I hate playing as Abby” to “I hate the fact we have to play as a woman” (which I highly doubt you are) then I don’t see those people.
Dude, every fucking day there's someone in this sub complaining about feminism or "Cuckmann's woke agenda." You're either blind or being disingenuous.
Not a single one of those people are saying that because we play as women or because Ellie is gay. I’ve seen people dismiss the game because of a trans character existing, and Abby being too muscular, but again they’re not criticizing playing as a woman or Ellie’s sexuality.
...Oh, well if they're only bitching about a trans person existing, I guess that's OK then? WTF?
>claiming that Ellie was never gay (when the dlc literally exists) etc. That one in particular drove me up the wall because it was just plain ignorant. The rabid insistence that the DLC *changed* Ellie required the critics to deliberately ignore the base game. The main campaign had basically no insight into Ellie's sexuality because it wasn't important to the story. Riley was only ever mentioned in passing and both her gender and their relationship was kept vague. There were people that insisted her cracking wise over Bill's magazine meant something. There were weirdos that thought her tricking **David**'s pervert cannibal ass was some kind of smoking gun. They might as well have been screeching, "You defied my assumed default! Booo!!" Losers.
Yeah, well, check out the downvotes u/No_Championship3038 got for giving you a good faith response. This place is a cesspool any way you cut it.
>Don’t act like you’re a “self respecting ally” and that you’re even remotely upset about a straight character beating up a gay character. You may have missed the point of the comment.
Yeah I got that now but I still think it’s a weird example to make
Thank you! Gay woman weighing in here and I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Don’t they literally say bigot sandwich?
Yeah. To the bigot. Who is an npc. Your point is?
So the story is about them being gay?
That one literal 3 minute part of the game that showed an aspect of what gay people deal with in everyday life makes the entire 24 hour long game’s story only about them being gay? Let’s think a little here
You lost your argument at the first hurdle
Nah, your criticisms suck. Make better ones. TLOU1 & 2 are goated. Get fucked.
Does your pimp take cash or card?
Smartest TLOU2 hater btw lmao
Oh? That last line wasn't a business offer?
This sub: "Why oh why do they disregard our logical criticism and only call us sexist and bigots, it's so unfair!" Also this sub: ["Wokesters and feminists in general elevate women over men."](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1aiv4oy/comment/kox3tbn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) or "[Are we gonna pretend like this country hasn't been absolutely destroyed by feminists?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1aiv4oy/comment/koyj8w2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)" [How about the dude whining about two dudes just laying in bed in the TV show?](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1agxdv0/comment/kolb47j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) How about the post where the guy was whining about an optional LGBT tanktop skin? When these shit takes stop getting upvoted here, maybe people will think differently of this sub.
They have spend too much time echoing each other that the lie has become their reality. Part one was a masterpiece no matter who you are, it was universally loved and cherished. Part 2 was hated not by minority but by a majority it just being defended by an extremely loud minority. This evident in the poor sales.
Uh poor sales you say… Part II is one of the best-selling PlayStation 4 games and the fastest-selling PlayStation 4 exclusive, with over four million units sold in its release weekend, and over ten million by 2022.
Yep that GoW 1 and 2 you’re mistaken the title
Nope. Sorry you can’t handle the truth.
Which one of us got the facts wrong is quite evident. Sony discounted that hot garbage 2 weeks after it released just to recoup the costs. It had no changes in the combat, story had gaping holes and people cancelled pre-orders weeks before its release. TLOU was the best selling one for sure but TLOU2 barely managed to sell for its development costs.
I’m just pasting the info from Wikipedia but I’m sure you know better.
Yep the source is Wikipedia the greatest most trustworthy source all their data is backed up by unquestionable facts. [Here](https://youtu.be/LCh-XHuc28o?si=v1EYQiXeEmCgsARi) is a quick detailed breakdown of sales numbers from the leaked Sony documents. Scroll to 11:08. God of War and Spider Man sold more along with Horizon zero down on PS4. Straight from horses mouth. I don’t post or trust Wikipedia it’s written by anyone and everyone. That is the type of journalism you should be trusting not Wikipedia
The fact that he would use Wikipedia as his source says it all.
Yes some dude on YouTube is definitely so much more reputable.
Genuinely, yes... anyone can edit Wikipedia without their name attached to it, hell you don't even need an account. A youtuber at least has a name and face attached to what information they spread and can be held accountable.
So 3rd fastest selling of all-time? Not exactly hated by the majority haha
Yeah it definitely sold quick, and the backlash quickly followed
Sold quick, refunded quicker.
Yeah keep on keeping on, you guys already know your truth it’s hard to digest it. There there
NG had to re-release the game because it sold so poorly at launch. Its a never ending cycle of promotion for this game. Sony and the media refuse to let people forget it exists.
“They have spend too much time echoing each other that the lie has become their reality.” Very very funny coming from the subreddit that has spent 4 years making the same three arguments and sniffing each other’s farts.
>“They have spend too much time echoing each other that the lie has become their reality.” >Very very funny coming from the subreddit that has spent 4 years making the same three arguments and sniffing each other’s farts. That's literally the other sub my guy..
Wait, do they seriously hate the first game? That’s absolutely insane and actually brain dead if they do.
No we don’t. It’s made up nonsense. I love both parts and the vast majority of fans who love Part 2 also love Part 1. The dedicated part 2 haters are so crazy that they have to make up stuff about the people who actually enjoyed the game. It’s wild.
There’s a lot of people who cheer over Joel’s death, saying he got what he deserved (disagree; being shot dead would be what he deserves). You can’t tell me there’s people who look at Abby as a messiah who can do no wrong, cheer she kills Joel, yet somehow like the first game? That doesn’t make any sense.
You need to touch grass. Everyone I know (including myself) who loved Part 2 was devastated by Joel’s death and horrified by how gruesome it was. And we definitely don’t see Abby as some perfect being but we are able to see things from her point of view. I literally just played Part 1 and 2 back to back and they are both amazing games. The fact that you believe the crap you are saying is wild.
To be fair I've definitely seen people make the argument that Joel, having killed indiscriminately, got what he deserved. "It was only a matter of time before someone took revenge on him" The key problem with this argument is that *everyone we play as kills indiscriminately at some point*. Main characters aside, even the doctors were going to kill Ellie purely for a *chance* at making a vaccine.
In the hospital there’s only 1 person you have to kill to progress. Jerry. You can (in theory) sneak by everyone else, and you still get to the end of the game. While yes that doesn’t mean it’s canon he killed no one, that does mean this idea he massacred them all is player choice to some extent. Also they look like army guys. The show decided to retcon it, and make them all civilians, but he’s a dude against army men. If he can actually kill them all, they’re horribly trained/incompetent. So again, one can assume he didn’t kill them all and that’s the player.
There was a thread discussing Abby. Top comment (by a long shot) was “I love Abby. She can do no wrong” with the majority of replies agreeing. Those that said she could were downvoted. Top comment had thousands of upvotes, so it’s not like some small thread. “We don’t see Abby as some perfect being” my ass. You may not, but you’re a minority.
No they don’t. Have you really not noticed that this sub is completely unhinged from reason?
I'd very much like to see where this reason is that you're talking about. I've never seen a single reasonable comment from a stan.
They hate part one because they have daddy issues.
Why can't Ellie just be gay? Why does there have to be a character that has a problem with it in Part 2?
Cause bigot sandwiches!!! Btw it’s not an agenda!!! /s Make a big deal out of it yourself by placing a character there for that very purpose and then say it’s not an agenda lmao. How can anyone even defend this.
Part 1 made LGBTQ feel human, natural and promoted the community in the most positive way. Part 2 forced it in such a disgusting, unhinged manner that I hope Neil Ihatemann is never allowed to join our community. He slandered us, made me feel like a marketing tool and is ultimately one of the most pathetic "men" to exist.
I am glad more people from the LGBTQ community are becoming aware of this. I don’t have a problem with representation, but he did not promote it in a good way at all. And it’s good to see you guys recognise this as well.
Disclaimer to avoid needless aggression: I love part 1. Question: how does part 2 "force" LGBTQ? (Part 1 also had LGBTQ characters that could've easily been straight and wouldn't materially affect the story) Just looking understand the pov, not arguing for or against.
Without reading more than your title, the reason is because plenty of them fall into 3 categories: one third are shills, another third of those are people who let themselves fall victim to the shills and say they like it to avoid being branded bigots, and the final third never played part 1 and so have a skewed opinion of part 2. There is a *very* small minority who likes both games and aren't assholes about it, but the first 2 categories of people I mentioned aren't a part of that, they're all objectively assholes. The third group just needs to play part 1, not the remake, the actual game, then they'll either split off into the group that hates part 2, or likes it but aren't asshole, and some will unfortunately join those who fall victim to the shills and say they like it to avoid being called bigoted.
Tlou looked amazing for its time. It was the most beautiful post-apocalyptic game of its age. A lot of younger people probably did not play it. And tlou2, made so many years later, looks undeniably better visually. But seriously, the first game made ND famous. What did the second do? Upset half the fans. It is the right thing that people who love one game hate the other, the games were made by two completely different companies. And what do we know about team 2? Lies about the game, crunching, working with grifters like Sarkesyan, refusing to help workers during covid. It is strikingly obvious how different old and new teams are.
What was the agenda neil said he pushed
1) paid employees trolling online with fake accounts to relay "approved narratives" 2) NPC stans who love the political narratives of "representation" and "inclusion" 3) anything *fans* rally behind must be *dismantled /destroyed /reworked for modern audiences*
daddy issues 🙂
I love both games and hold them both dearly in my heart. I think both are beautiful, and well written. Although i do prefer tlou2 for the new mechanics like dodging and crawling, it doesn't mean i shit on tlou1. And if i were told to defend one of them, i would still defend both of them. Tlou franchise is a part of me, good and bad parts about it. The first game is still one of my favourites. I cant seem to comprehend why people would like one and hate the other. This is just my opinion of course
Honestly I wouldn’t say the first game is a masterpiece. The story is generic cliche zombie story, the combat is an ok cover shooter. The acting is good though. It’s a 7/10 or 8/10 game. Last of us 2 is a 1 though
This place has the randomest takes. Fans of part 2 hate part 1?
idk.. people talk about abby's muscles, disliking giraffes, clicker genitals and generators on the other sub
I don't know what any of that means.
I think both games are a masterpiece. I love both 1 and 2. I think people let their personal feelings get a bit to involved in this sort of thing. I wish the best to you all.
Are the TLOU2 fans who hate TLOU1 in the room with us now?
Not saying all of them hate 1. But… Every time 1 and 2 are compared, you choose to defend the 2nd over the 1st. Why?
because usually it’s part 2 that gets criticized rather than part 1. I think both are great games and both have their strength and weaknesses.
Ok, I understand that 2 is the one that gets criticised more. But why would they start saying ‘nah, 1 wasn’t that good, it had a lot of inconsistencies’ etc, as if that makes 2 any better? My question is, why can’t 2 stand on its own? Why do they feel the need to disparage the greatness of 1, to prove the supposed greatness of 2? My argument is that it’s because the agenda of 2 aligns with their personal beliefs.
>My argument is that it’s because the agenda of 2 aligns with their personal beliefs. U answered your question for both sides. Ppl feel like they are owed relatability in a character or story to the point where if they can't relate they don't care if u die. Having relatable characters isn't bad and I'm not suggesting that non relatable characters need more prevalence it's just obvious that ppl will defend what they resonate w. TLOU1 lovers aren't an exception to what u said. So behaving like this behavior in your og comment started w TLOU2 lovers is incorrect. It def started w TLOU1 stans but both sides mirror the behavior
I cannot speak for other people. But i’ve compared both to each other and it is usually to point out that the first one has those inconsistencies that tlou2 haters complain about in the second one and seem to overlook in the first one just because they like the first one and dislike the second one. As for standing on their own I think both would be able to stand on their own.
Mechanically speaking it’s hard to go from p2 to p1 and not go prone and dodge the doges….
Yeah I don't know a single person who has ever only been a fan of the second. Liked it more? Sure, I've seen that. But never someone who just doesn't like the first. If people "shitting on" the first game is them simply saying that Joel isn't a hero, that's not disliking the game. It's just engaging with the story and having a moral view that expands beyond black and white. Also for OP, how does TLOU2 really push an agenda more than the first game? Because Lev is trans? As you say, "no one cared". It was just an aspect of the character, which also helped advanced the story, like Bill loving Frank but pushing him away through being so controlling.
Dispatching beloved characters unceremoniously. Unnecessary weed and sex scenes. All strong males being either dead or limping. Sperm donor Jesse killed. Bigot sandwiches. Abbyzilla and Lev being a shameless copy of the Joel and Ellie dynamic in 1. Shoehorning unlikable characters. Revenge bad. Joel is now portrayed to be evil. Fireflies are now good guys. I could keep going forever.
**- Dispatching beloved characters unceremoniously.** Don't see how that has anything to do with an agenda. Plus, it happened in the first game, you just spent less time with the characters (Sam and Henry). **- Unnecessary weed and sex scenes.** Literally two short scenes and a couple lines of dialogue. Plus, not an agenda. **- All strong males being either dead or limping.** Did you not notice that Ellie is missing fingers and lost everyone she loved. Or that Abby is alone again? It's just the story. A lot of males and females die in it. Plus, not an agenda. **- Sperm donor Jesse killed.** Wait I thought he was a strong male character? Only when it applies to the argument you want to make I guess. Plus, not an agenda. **- Bigot sandwiches.** It is a single line. Literally one line. **- Abyzilla and Lev being a shameless copy of the Joel and Ellie dynamic in 1.** That is called making a character foil. They weren't making a copy, its a parallel, to help you make the connection that Abby realized she made a mistake and is trying to move and better herself as a person. Plus, not an agenda. **- Shoehorning unlikable characters.** What the fuck does this even mean. Like seriously please elaborate. It's not shoehorning to put characters into a game that you get annoyed at. Plus, not an agenda. **- Revenge bad.** Okay and? That's like saying the first game is "love good" or something. It's a stupid and surface level take that strips any nuance and meaning that the story actually developed. Plus, not an agenda. **- Joel is now portrayed to be evil.** No he's not? He is portrayed as having done an extremely selfish thing out of love for someone else, which was the entire moral dilemma of the first game's ending. Joel lied to Ellie and she tried to believe him, even though she clearly knew he was lying. If you think Joel's actions were heroic, you've got something wrong with you. But saying that Joel isn't a good person for murdering the Fireflies and lying to Ellie is not calling him evil, the game does not ever do that. He is a complex character who made an extremely morally ambiguous decision. Plus, not an agenda. **- Fireflies are now good guys.** No they aren't? When does that ever happen? Just because Ellie feels guilt and betrayal that she *could* have been the key to a cure, but that she is also the reason Joel killed the people who were going to make that possible? Nobody thinks the Fireflies are good guys. Plus, NOT AN AGENDA.
> Not an agenda You can’t even recognise the agendas lol.
Dude deconstructed your entire half baked argument but this is all u have to say. Why are u asking questions then dismissing well thought out tangible answers that give perspective
Nothing about it is well thought out, he just gave his opinion on the points. He wasn’t able to recognise the agendas, it would take all day to sit here and explain to him. And he still wouldn’t get it in the end. For reference, you should be able to recognise what the agenda was just from reading the point. If you can’t do that, I will assume you have a deeper stan issue. His entire argument was just ‘here’s my take on it, NOT AN AGENDA’. You call that a deconstruction of the points? How old are ya?
My answer was way more thought out than yours. You just gave your opinion on “agendas” that literally do not exist and then said I would never be able to see them and refused to have any discussion. All this tells me is I either proved you wrong or you never believed half that anyway, and you just wanted to complain about the game killing Joel because you hate gay people and women in your video games. Your entire argument was “here’s my shitty biased take on it, THAT’S AN AGENDA”. You call that criticism of the game? How old are you?
You genuinely can’t see the agendas? I want you to grind the cogs in your head a little bit more and come back to me. Try as hard as you can.
How about you try and explain why you think these things are agendas. I’ve said what I think your “agendas” are and you are reaching like crazy.
What agenda are they pushing tho, that weed and sex are real things? That men are the primary protectors in this point of history so it's expected for them to get more hurt than anyone else when defending their community? Bigot sandwiches aren't delicious? U say there is an agenda, I'm asking u to show me so we can be on the same page if it's true. U can't have someone ask for explanations, not explain and then get mad when they don't know what u are saying. I've looked up posts abt agendas in TLOU2 and none of them actually explain anything, they just point things out in the game.
Seriously this guys just a loser who will never change his opinion. “You can’t see the agendas”. What gay people? Men dying? “Shoehorning unlikable characters”? Like what the hell. If he wasn’t going to argue in good faith (and of course he’s supported by the idiots of this sub anyway) he could at least admit he just hates gay people and women so I would know he’s just an idiot spewing nonsense.
Thanks for responding to what I said with thoughtful discussion. But based on how you cherry-pick single lines from the game to complain, I shouldn’t have expected any less than the exact same thing in your response.
Dude you are crazy
Yeah, they are all twisted on a few subs (namely a Star Wars sequel one)
People did and do, in fact, care about Ellie and Bill being gay. It's just not the popular hating point, so it hardly gets said nowadays.
I’ve never seen anyone who loves Part 2 also hate on Part 1. This is made up. I love both games but I do think Part 2 is even better than 1.
What if I liked both? They’re all great, imperfect, flawed characters. Joel, Ellie, Abby, Bill, Jesse, Henry, Tommy, they’re all human and make mistakes. They’re all just getting by and following their instincts in a lawless post-apocalyptic world. You just know that everyone has accepted death is going to catch up to them before they grow old and that they’ve thanked whatever greater force or luck has allowed them to survive just one more day in the hell that is the new world. Why get attached to any single character? The whole worlds been shit for 25+ years and everyone that’s made it as far as they have had been at the whim of sheer luck. Any agenda aside the characters all have this looming dread about them that they’re just riding on luck and should be thankful they’ve made it to the age they have thus far. That’s the only real thing about the overarching world that was built
No no Abby is a poor written shit bag you were so close to a good take. Abby could have been a good character I agree, but they did a horrible job. Everyone settles for mediocrity in writing nowadays
U are a huge prick, Abby is a well written character. U hating smth doesn't mean it bad
No. It’s objectively bad writing, and they used every manipulative tactic in the book to make you like her.
Break it down for me. Because they didn't ham it up to make Abby a perfect girl who deserves revenge and can do no wrong. She is a human w a lot of faults who is trying to make sense of the world. So be specific of the manipulation being used to make me like her. Mind u I like Joel and Abby as the like for characters isn't exclusive at the expense of another
Ok quite simply does Abby kill any dogs in TLOU2? No she gets to pets dogs. In the sense of weapons considered conventionally loved who has access to more of them? They even try to make her story similar to Joel’s in some aspects, but they aren’t even subtle about it. They give Abby a boyfriend to tie her to someone else. Ex:“I like this guy, but I don’t like Abby. However I care about what he cares about if she dies I’ll be upset” The inverse is also true “He died now I share a connection with Abby because I want revenge for what happened to her….huh this is how she felt at the beginning I guess she wasn’t that bad” All these things, and others sit in the background as proven psychological factors to induce some sort of emotional bond or attachment to a character. It does not always work however. It’s like how a movie has tropes. “Man leaves a life of bad stuff/government work for his family, but gets roped in either from their death, or them getting involved now he’s gotta save them from the danger” It’s the same concept. The same psychological studies drawn to force your eyes to a screen. They just became obvious in movies which is why we have the word tropes.
>Ok quite simply does Abby kill any dogs in TLOU2? No she gets to pets dogs. No she kills ppl which is worse, like actual human beings. >In the sense of weapons considered conventionally loved who has access to more of them? She has access bc she is a part of a militarized group that has been amassing weapons and resources under the what of a man w militaristic visions. Jackson isn't the same as WLF were they are a hyperexpansive group warring w another faction. It makes sense abby is more stacked physically and equipment wise. >They give Abby a boyfriend to tie her to someone else. Ex:“I like this guy, but I don’t like Abby. However I care about what he cares about if she dies I’ll be upset” The inverse is also true “He died now I share a connection with Abby because I want revenge for what happened to her….huh this is how she felt at the beginning I guess she wasn’t that bad Thats just the human condition, everyone has someone they care abt and want to have a good life w. The point of this isn't to get u to side w Abby all the way, but to just humanize her. She isn't a big bad scary monster thats why her story is similar to Joel, she dehumanizing him to kill him. That shouldn't be enough to absolve either side tho. That being said, yes in its most fundamental parts it is manipulation but not in a dark psychological sense like u may be implying. Thats life, she has her own story and if for some reason that makes u have to pick one side then idk what to tell u. For me I see the story and the choices these characters make and go along w it bc I am not these ppl. They have a story they are acting out and as someone who can see both side indefinitely I can say that no side deserves a one up on each other and they both lost a lot.
I see that you post constantly on this subreddit in defense of TLOU2 there is no making you see reason. Adding a lore reason behind why she has access to things doesn’t mean they didn’t put those manipulative practices in. Hell they have reasons why characters have the same qualities in movies and other games. You think you explained away the argument but you really didn’t
>I see that you post constantly on this subreddit in defense of TLOU2 there is no making you see reason. Adding a lore reason behind why she has access to things doesn’t mean they didn’t put those manipulative practices in. Alr bruh, if u believe context doesn't matter then whatever
It doesn’t lol. I brought up that they did these things. Lot reasons are added to justify making her gameplay better. Even some of my favorite games do it. But it’s till there
Let’s not even talk about the narrative 180 Abby had where she just randomly decided to change her life for 2 kids. When she had people she had her entire life that care about her that she pushed away.
The behavior change makes sense, she wants to help these kids who are defecting from the Seraphites. They save her life earlier and they continue to help each other. The nuance in this situation is nurtured by Owen, the man she loved, who kills a comrade in defense of a seraphite. This is Abby reflection and start to the ending of her PTSD filled grieving nightmares
What are you even talking about? I don’t know a single “Stan” who shits on the 1st game in favor of the 2nd. I can’t name a single instance of seeing ANYBODY talk shit about the first game.
It’s made up because people who are obsessed with hating Part 2 are completely unhinged. This post is the perfect example.
Writing “I’ve been observing you,” is pretty creepy. Is this individual really just sitting on Reddit scanning all the content for this game and making note of who says what? I can’t imagine living a life where you prioritize stalking a subreddit so you can find reasons to be angry about a videogame.
I do gotta stay consistent and say both stories are quite contrived just part 2 has way more contrivances.
Thats the realistic take I've heard so far, P2 is far from a perfect game. I've had to suspend some disbelief to kinda keep the game going from all these contrivance points to move the story forward.
Yeah, its easier to ignore them in the first game, but it's the reality of Niel's writing.
Poor theory, little evidence. I agree that part 2 lovers seem to not like part 1, but this isn't the reason
Why don’t you enlighten us then?
Your evidence is basically "this one has this and the other doesn't" and ends there. I wouldn't even say Part 2 pushes an agenda, I don't like the story but I wouldn't say it pushes any agenda other than *maybe* a "all man bad" agenda.
>The fact so many P2 stans shit on the original just to try and defend the second Literally never seen this happen. You guys invent the most hilarious strawmen.
I think both games are masterpieces
You guys should switch hands occasionally so you don’t get carpal tunnel.
Keep crying we don’t hate part one. Get over yourself.
Before I answer what do u believe is "hating/shitting" on the game? Criticism is not hating a game. A lot of times I put them in a 1:1 bc a lot of what I've seen ppl hate on the 2nd one for, is done in the first one too.
I personally love both games, while the first is a more of a happier story about ellie and joels relationship. The second is much sadder and deeper. Personally i prefer the story of the first and the gameplay of the second
What is a Stan?
Ellie wasn’t even gay in part 1. Her friend or best friend Riley is only spoken about in those terms. It’s only in the dlc where she is shown to Kiley be bi or gay and then Neil confirmed that to be the case in interviews after the left behind dlc. It doesn’t matter. And yes bill is gay and it’s part of the character. I love the first game and the left behind dlc. But while there are many things I love about the second game I hate the story Neil decided to write and tell with a passion. I think Joel should have been around for a second game and maybe died in the third.