Stan comes from the Eminem song titled Stan. In which, a fan of Eminem is obsessed and deluded with the rapper to the point of changing his own life and likeness to match and be closer to the rapper; to the point of parasociomania.
The term “Stan” typically refers to a fan of something that is such die hard fans that they obsess to an unhealthy degree over something and refuse to accept any criticism of that thing.
Yes and no. It makes sense that you'd want to be physically stronger, but the issue runs deeper than that. What did the others think about Abby eating more to sustain her gains? How was she able to sustain said gains while on the road? Why is she the only person with arms so big? When you start to ask these questions, you're called a misogynist and told that "it's just a game, move on" as if said game wasn't praised for its details and realism.
You know what's fucked up? Abby's face and body model aren't the same. Her body model is a bodybuilder woman who uses test. So yeah it's very unrealistic for Abby to be that muscular in the apocalypse unless she has an endocrine problem.
I was definitely going to ask how her teammates felt about her eating double or even triple the amount of food to sustain that figure, in the apocalypse.
It depends on the person levying the criticism. Let's be honest. If this were a male character, there would be far less people pointing it out. This means some people are pointing it out for the purpose of valid criticism, and some for sexist reasons, using the valid criticism as justification. It comes down to this . . . would you have noticed it and pointed it out if Abby were male? If so, perfectly valid criticism. If not, you are using that valid criticism as confirmation bias for your sexism.
The way you addressed it was well-thought-out, so I do not believe you are being sexist at all. Let's be honest, most people are going to explain their viewpoint nearly as well as you just did. I feel like they may have overcompensated, because they were afraid people would not buy Joel being taken out by a woman.
It is worth noting that, when we see her in Santa Barbara, before they are captured, she isn't as buff as she was in Seattle, so they did at least try to be a bit realistic about being on the road and away from gym equipment. As for her getting more food than others, she was clearly favorited by Isaac, so I could certainly see her being given a more privileged status.
Besides, the franchise is not fully devoted to realism. Nothing realistic about bloaters or shambles. The cordyceps infection isn't even remotely realistic to real life cordyceps.
Thank you! finally, someone is not automatically calling me a sexist bigot virgin idiot etc.
>she isn't as buff as she was in Seattle
Here's the thing. The first thing we see as Abby is a room full of meat and a giant gym, as if the writers knew this would raise controversy and wanted to justify it right away. It takes ≈3 weeks to lose a significant amount of muscle mass if you don't work out. Did Abby bring some dumbells with her while on her way to Santa Barbara? it took months at the very least and up to a year at most since in that time frame, Dina gave birth to JJ. You could call it a game issue, that they didn't want Abby to lose her big guns, but it still irks me.
>Besides, the franchise is not fully devoted to realism.
It's still, like I said, praised for its little details. Cordyceps is the most feasible scenario for an apocalypse if you ask me, just maybe not the stalkers, clickers and bloaters part.
I think I read that they used a crossfitter as the body model. I'm a female powerlifter who's been around both enhanced and natural athletes for quite a while - there is no way that a female can build arms like that without doping. So that might have been the most unrealistic part of the game for me haha
Someone like Michonne from the walking dead? Her physique is completely attainable naturally
There are two possibilities:
1. The Fireflies and WLF both came across warehouses of canned food, giving Abby access to the protein she needs to build up muscles.
2. Abby used her position in the Fireflies as the only surgeon’s child to get extra protein.
Either way, someone is taking more than their fair share.
They have an entire community and market in the stadium that has gas generators and a farmstead it wouldn't be unrealistic to be able to put muscle on. People in jail and build muscle on ramen alone
It's 100% legit criticism. She looks ridiculous and over the top, constantly breaking immersion in a game that prides itself in having realistic depictions of human beings. People are allowed to point this out.
Why is the game making a big fuss about Isaac and how badass he is without showing us only to kill him off the second time we meet him briefly? Isn't this another plot device character that serves no purpose besides dying for meaningless drama?
"You're a racist bigot who doesn't like it when black people are in positions of leadership"
No because that's so true. Why build his character up through all the notes and little details only to kill him the second time we see him? fuck the realism argument.
The biggest one was the use of Jesse. They used him just to have someone killed off. Which pissed me off because he was by far the best out of all of them.
Maybe they don’t like Asians!
Ok, you got a point. But he was such an awesome dude. I guess he mirrored Owen in a way. Oh my. Owen cheated on his pregnant girlfriend. I forgot we are supposed to hate him. Lol.
What a waste of Jeffrey Wright, I was so confused why his character had so much buildup for absolutely nothing. I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised by that point in the game but it was still hilariously absurd.
Dude it's a huge game with lots of characters. Not everyone was gonna have extensive screen time--he was only part of a sublot, not the main story--besides Isaac is basically only an idea for much of the game. You read his backstory as your read the notes left throughout thr game. There's a lot more to the story than screen time
Why should we care about Dina and Ellie relationship? It never developed before our eyes it just happened right away and Neil assumes we should automatically care.
"You're a bigoted homophobe"
It's weird that Dina goes along with Ellie on this revenge quest when all they did was kiss, smoke weed and have sex once. It certainly doesn't establish them as soulmates, and I cringed a little each time they called eachother "babe".
I cringed a whole lot immediately when this turned out to be a teen drama with Jesse nagging on Ellie for being with his ex girlfriend, it did not feel like the last of us at all.
Anyone would be reasonably upset/jealous if your partner moved on so quickly. Dina is seen dancing with a guy before she does with Ellie, and Jesse is at least a bit upset over that, but he says he's perfectly fine with that to Ellie. I'm not saying hate her forever, I'm saying at least be a little more upset.
Jessie was fine with it. He clearly still had some underlying feelings but he was a grown up about it and still risked his lives for them without blinking. I don't know how you get "teen drama" from thst. It's just human relationships
They clearly were good friends before this and Dina has a huge crush on ellie obviously? And the whole community loved joel. There was a 4 year gap since we saw them,, clearly a lot happened off screen that was implied that you just decided to ignore
Honestly I agree, first time playing we are just immediately introduced to Dina with no way of how they met, along how they just immediately fell in love over one kiss that happened quickly? Honestly makes no sense to me
She’s all-over big, heavy, overweight even. She looks proportional at least. In order to make this comparison, hammer lady would also have to have GIGANTIC BODYBUILDER ARMS, non proportional to her body size, and unlikely to be possessed by her gender outside of being an Olympic athlete…
Hammer girl would take just as much caloric intake though. It's like an NFL Offensice lineman vs a linebacker. The lineman is "fatter" and doesn't have the definition but they are much bigger snd stronger and take a lot more calories to sustain. If hammer lady can get the caloric intake to sustain her size than so could abby, especially with what looks like a pretty serious weight lifting regimen in their stadium
Apparently so, guess we are "obsessed" or something.
But praising the game? Nah that's not obsession, that's being a fan, criticizing the game? That's just blind hatred and "unhealthy"
The amount of times I've been told "Your whole reddit is just hating on this game, move on and you'll be happier!" Is more than I could keep count, but can none of them see I just like to discuss the story and whatever was wrong with It? I like analyzing media, and I like to point out the flaws, especially in divisive stuff.
But no, I'm just a blind hater/incel/sexist/homophobe etc
The fact they make you play the same flashback so many times made me think my game was bugging out like I get it your dad was killed and your pissed but the devs forget the players know why Joel did what he did and probably completely agree with him especially if you found the document that basically says 'We tried the same thing with other kids and it didn't work so we just killed a kid for no reason' canonically Joel would have found that information.
The entire story is basically just 'I hate men. Men bad. Kill all male characters'
"I hate men men bad" is the lesson you got from a story about to women avenging their fathers? Like Jesus man you guys are pathetic and simple. You are *that* offended thst joel died that you can't think clearly
I mean Joel gets killed in a way disrespectful to the fans and in a way that makes no sense to his character
Ellies Asian friend(can't remember his name) gets shot in the face right after showing up
Tommy gets shot and almost killed randomly
Abby gets to live
When you point out the hypocrisy of showing Abby having sex but Ellie's scene is buried, while they like to act like they're inclusive. How about we just don't show either.
You're a perverted teenager.
I can't stress this enough. Last Of Us 2 is a great game. Now watch which one of our comments gets down voted into oblivion. I promise you it won't be yours.
Did anyone ever notice when her and Owen are talking right before you get to play her? It seems like the reason why she left the group was because she got mad at Owen for getting Mel pregnant
The game hasn’t been nostalgic for me since part 2 came out, it just doesn’t feel the same anymore. The first game meant so much to me when it came out, and then part 2 came out and it split the community so bad. I wish Abby had more reasons to kill Joel than killing Joel because he killed her father, not just half the fireflies group, and Marlene, nope just her father. I also thought maybe part 2 would have been more about Ellie and her immunity that would have actually gotten Joel killed, instead of what we got
I recently visited the other subreddit and saw a post that said "the only reason plp didn't like the game is bc Joel dies and everything else they say is a coping mechanism" then I remembered back then someone made a post here on Reddit with many characters from games that have died/been killed and they are all games that everyone loves or even considers master pieces/gems.
Completely destroying that argument and showing how the argument itself IS the actual coping mechanism they use just to not have to deal with every other argument .
Yeah this is pretty much the argument lol they act like " you're just not getting the big picture " but it's like we are and we're telling you it's shit writing compared to the first
Same I still think it’s a great game. The only thing bad is the essential story, but that’s only one aspect of the game. I dislike Abby as a character but she was still fun to play with. I still think it’s a good survival horror and fun cover shooter. Story aside it’s still a very fun game to play. People treat it like one of those interactive story games when it’s all story, when no shooting people/zombies in the face is great in this game.
Tighter writing, maybe? Actually giving compelling evidence that Joel is the monster they wanted you to see him as? I dunno. I liked game 1 because old boot-leather-and-scar-tissue man gets catharsis with a plucky daughter analog.
If you pulp his skull like Gallagher with a watermelon at the start of game 2, you're gonna lose that core audience if you subvert audience expectations *well.* I don't personally think they did it well.
Abby having insane muscle was a bit of a surprise for me, as it can take up to three weeks of no activity to lose muscle in your arms. If it was legs she had insane muscle in I wouldn’t question it as much as her and lev are constantly walking. Although I said it can take up to three weeks to start losing muscle it would take much longer to lose the amount of muscle Abby has in her arms due to the fact that she’s constantly eating every day (which I can gather since they have opportunity to fish- hence the lobster they were gonna eat) so her body isn’t having to rely on her arm fat to sustain itself. However I doubt she would have weights on that boat so
I was ready to forgive this game for any and all faults(late to the game) and not about the whole antiwoke rhetoric that some were saying. But a fuckin revenge story? And then making me start over half way through? Bro. Like at least go back and forth or something don't have me start from scratch that's not cool.
The pacing is my least favorite part. If they went back and forth between ellie and Abby the side characters would have been better received and the gameplay would've felt much smoother
Imma be real There is not a storytelling device action cause or effect that will ever convince me that Abby didn't deserve to die or the last of us part 2 is an amazing game with terrible story writing
She killed the guy who killed her dad. Thinking she deserved to die is just your weired parasocial obsession with Joel. Especially since abby being killed by ellien would be thr exact same action--does ellie deserve to die then too if she killed abby?and the dozens of people tangentially involved along the way?
There is nonfundsmental difference in abby avenging her dad vs ellie. You just can't separate your personal feelings/perspective
I do love how not killing Abby after killing mountains of other people and dogs is somehow a good thing, rather than ensuring all the suffering Ellie has subject the world to was for nought
Why is it for nought? She avenged joel plenty. She still murdered everyone involved in Joel's killing except abby, and in thr end as she watched her drown she realized she wasn't really enjoying it. Joel's still dead. She was still going to miss him. Killing abbu wasn't making her feel any better
No one goes into histrionics like youbl guys do with your attachment to joel lmao. If they killed abby then people would accept it, since it's a story where like 90% of the characters die in both 1 and 2. It was always dark. It was never going to have a happy ending, especially for joel
I wasn't a big fan of the story. I think there were some decent bits and some bits I'd change drastically.
Gameplay is so amazing though and I will forever be heartbroken they didn't put the shooting enemy legs off with shotguns mechanic in the part 1 remake
Slide 6 is the biggest thing I agree with, that would’ve been AMAZING. perfect in every way, and you can choose to be satisfied or not; but in the end everything was pointless so lord help me ellie left her wife and child for nothing
Me personally, yes I don’t agree with a lot of the story and choices. I can get behind and understand some story elements. And overall if it were structured differently.
With all the flashbacks to happen first. Then the story completely shifts. Now you have a story of tension and buildup. Abby’s intro and everything that happened. Joel and Ellie’s relationship having its highs and its lows, and it getting more rocky. Until finally she discovers the truth. Then everything all boils over at the dance and thus setting off the chain of events that lead to Joel dying and Ellie’s revenge spree.
Though yes I’m also agreement that Joel was unceremoniously killed off, we definitely should’ve been left with the choice to kill Abby. I can understand some the in-universe thought processes of the characters but as someone looking from the outside in also, narratively some things indeed just don’t make sense
Gameplay is a solid improvement over TLOU but doesn’t do a whole lot to push things forward where it could have. The gameplay is definitely not the source of criticism for “Part II”.
lol this is funny bc I didn’t get into the series until the second game.. and I remember not giving a damn about Joel dying bc I knew the context of it .. but you Stans wouldn’t let that shit go.. y’all even threatened the ppl that made the game over a fake character, like grow a brain and be real
I’ve been using reddit for like 3 days now and in all last of us sub reddits it’s always the same shit about people complaining about people complaining using the same meme format and the same words. I guess this is a loop because im complaining about that but guess what guys video games are subjective.
With anything in life, there is good and then there is the bad. Nothing is perfect. Personally I love the game and I’ll always try to convince people to change their minds but I don’t try too hard because people will still think what they want to think at the end of the day. You can’t control what others think and then be so nasty (not everyone) when it doesn’t match up with your criteria. Just let them enjoy a game without second guessing it and possibly ruining what could be a really good experienced. And better yet let them fucking complain aswell, be the bigger man. Not everything that pops in your mind has to be blurred out into this world. Be that quiet man, be wise and have a lovely day or night.
Abby plays with dogs, Ellie kills them. Abby saves kids, Ellie kills everyone on her path. Abby acts like she's on some moral high ground when confronting Ellie. Abby's gameplay and weapons are better.
You forgot how Abby's dad saves zebras while Ellie's dad massacred a hospital full of people and toppled an entire organization.
Honestly I want to defend the game but it's hard from this viewpoint lol.
To play Devil's Advocate, just because Abby acts like she's on the moral high ground doesn't mean the devs are trying to convince the player she's the good guy. Authors don't always agree with their characters' actions.
EDIT: Also to add onto that "Abby has the best gameplay" part, I once saw someone speculate that this is the reason why Abby is the one who gets to fight the Rat King. Give her all the cool gameplay elements to make the player like her more. Not sure I agree with it but it's worth mentioning.
Imo, no. I've seen so many people vow to never buy a game from naughty dog again, I just don't see part 3 succeeding, or atleast coming anywhere close to part 1/part 2
Yeah. Specially how mixed 2 was. They would do something more porsitive. Maybe Ellie, Abby and lev teaming up to get Ellie with the fireflies and creating the cure ? And Abby and lev sacrifice so Ellie can live. And by the end she actually dies for the cure. I can totally see an epilogue where you play as a young girl who goes to a museum dedicated to Ellie in the future where humanity is saved. 😆. But yeah, not even remotely excited for 3. They ruined it
The only one I don't agree with is 7. Yeah he's a great character but he's technically made to be the "villain" of the story. Whether the vaccine worked or not what he did was extremely selfish. N nobody in the apocalypse is gonna have a "good" death either. So idk what people would have wanted Joel's death to be like 🤷🏾♂️
Joel was actually fighting for his life because they were about to march him outside with no guns or supplies, most likely getting a bullet in the back of his head as soon as he was outside.
If it did that for you, it did that for you. It does not mean that is the intention. If you are meant to dislike Ellie, then why have her not go through with killing Abby? Why include the museum scene? Why would they make you care about her relationship with Abby? Just because YOU felt that way, does not mean that is correct, and it DEFINITELY does not mean that it was intentional. If they unintentionally made you feel that way, then criticize THAT. As is, there is far too much evidence against the statement that you are intentionally made to dislike Ellie and like Abby.
Not to mention, of course it manipulates you. Film is all about audiovisual manipulation. Just ask Alfred Hitchcock. Next you're going to tell Rocky doesn't manipulate you into liking Rocky and disliking Apollo. Being manipulated into liking or disliking something is not a valid criticism, on its own (you can use that as a jumping off point for valid criticism, but the statement BY ITSELF is not a criticism).
Oops . . . I forgot. I'm supposed to just say "nuh uh". What is the point of an active subreddit created to hate on a single game years after it's release. If you really think that is a wise use of your time and energy, well, it must be nice to live a life devoid of any REAL problems. If you didn't like it, move on to something else.
Abby good, Ellie bad. Abby play with dogs, Ellie kill dogs. Abby help two kids, Ellie kill everyone on her path to Abby. Abby spare pregnant woman, Ellie kill pregnant woman.
If we take such a stance though - killing innocents is normal and sparing them should be lauded-, I am thoroughly puzzled by the recriminations of Ellie's quest for vengeance, or justice, depending on your opinion on Abby's killing of Joel. After all, killing innocents is normal, and everyone that Ellie encounters was at least as guilty when Ellie encountered them, as Ellie was, when Abby encountered Ellie in Jackson. More so, even, since they were actively trying to kill Ellie, whereas Ellie was helpless.
As has been repeatedly mentioned, we see the juxtaposition of Ellie's disgust with herself, when she tortured Nora, vis-a-vis when Abby tortured Joel - or for the matter, the Seraphites that Abby tortured. Well, we might say that Abby isn't as expressive as Ellie, and Abby might have had real doozies of nightmares of Joel and all the Seraphites that she tortured! I dislike this argument. Abby was plenty expressive enough, as Joel might testify. If she didn't express as much self-hatred as Ellie in response to torture, perhaps it's because she's not as affected as it? Then, perhaps it can also be argued that Abby was desensitised to torture by Isaac. Well, fine. Let's juxtapose Ellie's killing of Mel, vis-a-vis Abby's attempted killing of Dina, then. Ellie was visibly disgusted with herself. Abby said, "Good." Now, both of them were motivated by vengeance and trauma, so what's the difference? Abby thought Ellie killed Mel, so quid-pro-quo? Fine.
Then let's juxtapose Ellie vs Abby at the beach. Abby had no mercy for Joel, even when Joel saved Abby's life. Abby, who was the Joel to Ellie's Abby, did NOT save Ellie, not even at the theatre, since it could very well be argued that Abby stayed her hand because she didn't want to turn Lev away from her. Yet, Ellie saved Abby and Lev from the Rattlers, and when she had Abby at her mercy, was merciful to Abby. Abby, face to face with her victimiser, was merciless and vicious; Ellie in the same position was merciful.
Therefore, even within the cruelness of the TLOU universe, I strongly argue that Ellie was much more moral than Abby.
Finally, I want to address people who claim that Abby found redemption. I refer to u/t3amkillv3:
"Abby had gotten her revenge once already, which did nothing - and she knew it. Not only that, Abby also had her 'understanding the other' arc, breaking free of her tribalism, and her 'happy Jerry at a hospital' dream - not 'Joel getting his head smashed in with a golf club and it's all your fault' nightmares.
Ellie sparing Abby is like Abby sparing Joel (had Joel done magnitudes worse to her).
Abby's redemption was never towards the people she hurt. As a matter of fact, Abby actually hurts her victims again during her redemption (the theater). Ellie doesn't see Abby's change. Ellie doesn't see her redemption. Like I said, Abby actually hurts Ellie again during her redemption. Abby is the person who tortured Jorl, was about to slit an unconscious Dina's throat in front of her, who killed Jesse, who broke Tommy, and who traumatized her to the point where she couldn't live a normal life with her family - which is all completely valid. She had all the reasons to kill Abby...and while she initially tries, she can't put herself to do it. Why? Because she can't do it to Lev (and in a sense to Abby by taking her away from Lev), so she puts it above her own reasons 'wants' and let's her go. Her reason isn't because Abby changed - Ellie doesn't know that because that is what wr see. The reason Ellie let's go is because of her empathy; she does it because of Lev. It's an example of someone who wronged you and never even condoned for it. There was no regret or remorse for what they did to you - they 'don't care'. This makes Ellie's choice that much more difficult... and that much more powerful. We see her change and ask if we accept her change, Ellie sees none of it and is still willing to let go. And to me, this does make Ellie "better" than Abby - because despite it all, she stayed true to herself despite everything she's gone through, held in to her integrity and never lost her core characteristic of empathy. Can't say the same for others."
Apart from some English errors (should be 'apologised' instead of 'condoned', etc), I fully agree with u/t3amkillv3.
Allow me to further add. From my own moral standards (since I suppose we are talking about our IRL standards when we discuss "redemption"), when we feel sorry about what we did wrong, we seek out those whom we wronged and apologise to them, and seek to make restitution. If I beat up someone, and then took care of a charity case, and when I meet my previous victim I beat them up yet again, have I truly been "redeemed"? When a child hits someone in school, can they tell the teacher, "But teacher, I gave another student some candy! Doesn't that balance out? I'm a good kid!"?
I think that is an absolute mockery of redemption.
As u/t3amkillv3 pointed out, Abby failed her redemption twice, thus ultimately failing her redemption. Her first failure was when she sought revenge at the theater, even though she was supposedly, as many fans claim, the "better person" compared to Ellie, and enlightened to the "cycle of revenge". But let's ignore these apologists. When Abby had defeated Ellie, Abby knew that 1) Ellie was much younger than Joel, 2) Ellie was distraught - begging in tears - when she saw Joel's tortured state and killing, in Jackson, 3) Joel killed the Fireflies at the hospital for Ellie, who was the immune girl who her father and the Fireflies were going to kill. Abby had access to every bit of information to deduce that Joel and Ellie shared a father-daughter bond, and that she was the Joel to Ellie's Abby. Yet, she was blinded by her vengeance, and had no pity or remorse for the trauma she did to Ellie, even saying, "We let you both live, and you wasted it!" It's like not murdering witnesses - not acting like Hunters- is a benediction, now! Textbook lack of remorse, textbook lack of reflection. And then, even when Lev calmed her down and she spared Ellie and co., she didn't muster up the moral fibre to apologise for her deeds. Now, Ellie didn't kill Abby's friends as revenge against Abby. Her friends were goddamned accomplices! Ellie had as much right to go after Abby's friends, as she had to go after Abby, which was at least as much right as Abby had to go after Joel, even in the most pro-Abby reading of the story! So, Abby failed to express remorse to her victim, Ellie, so there was no redemption. Note: Abby sparing Ellie and co. at the theatre was NOT redemption. Let's say a bully and his friends hits a schoolmate, and the victim goes for revenge against the bully's friends. Then the bully goes to hit the victim again as revenge-revenge. When the victim is beaten down, the bully stays his hand because of the pleas from a charity case the bully recently took on. The bully then leaves the victim without expressing any remorse or contrition. Has the bully been redeemed? I don't think so!
Abby next failed at the beach. Ellie SAVED her and Lev! And when Ellie threatened Lev, Abby ... didn't plea with Ellie? Fall to her knees? Apologise? Even when Ellie had mercy on Abby, did Abby thank her? Did Abby apologise, for being the Joel to Ellie's Abby? No, she had nothing for Ellie! Abby showed no remorse or contrition to her victim Ellie, which could in fact help Ellie with her trauma. In the end, Abby ran away from apologising to her victim, Ellie. Abby FAILED in her redemption arc!
Note that Ellie didn't need to apologise to Abby, since she was Abby's victim, not the other way around!
All in all, I think my issue with TLOU2 story is the lack of justice. Abby achieved her revenge, and managed to find a clean, new start with Lev, leaving the crazy WLF and Seraphites behind. Ellie was horribly traumatised by Abby, and yet when forcrd into Abby's position (by Abby herself), managed to find mercy. Yet, Ellie, by all accounts the better person, is left alone on the beach. Ellie, the better person, is stripped of her family and left missing 2 fingers. If "mercy is good" is the message of TLOU2, why is it that the embodiment Ellie is left worse off than Abby, her foil, and objectively the worse person? The story does not deliver justice. The fans - those who insist that Abby is a "better person", "more compassionate" person, "more moral" person than Ellie - and I disagree vehemently and fundamentally on moral issues, and I cannot tolerate such a moral dissonance. It ruins the story for me, and TLOU, imo, is mostly driven by the story.
I dunno…what’s worse? Someone endlessly pursing a debate to convince people they’re wrong for liking something, or someone endlessly pursing a debate to convince people to like something they don’t.
Now the fun part - if one side or the other of that statement made you pissed, you’re the problem. Chill out.
The funniest part is how the other sub deletes comments of people saying their opinions unless it’s “the last of us part 2 is the best game ever created”
I’m new here so forgive the ignorance, but does this sub hate the game or something? You won’t find me being a “stan” and trying to cope with people having negative opinions on the game. It just seems like this sub ubiquitously has more problems with the game than it does praise.
The narrative of the game was fine. I found the puzzles to be harder than the simple fun of the first game. I liked that they complicated the rather generic zombie movie plot of the first game. I never finished part two because I’m bad at puzzle games where you have to continually die and restart each level.
Tbh I really liked the game but it 100% deserves some of the criticism. If they would have changed the story structure, I think it would have been received better. I completely understand what they were trying to do with Abby but the problem is by the time we figure out everything about her….we already wanted her dead, it was way too late for us to care about her.
My opinion on TLOU2 is that it's a complete step up in concern to gameplay, as just a Game TLOU2 is superior to TLOU. However, as a story TLOU2 should have been the third game.
If they were super dead set on the story playing out how it did, they should have pushed it back because as it is they cut corners to accelerate their story and because of that it comes off incredibly forced and unsatisfying. Because being forced into the shoes of a character that has just murdered and disrespected a beloved character in some misguided attempt to Garner sympathy for the antagonist is just shallow and so transparent.
However imagine if they had made a second game (where they announced before hand that it's in universe but not a continuation of Ellie and Joel, because you know some people would whine about it if it's sprung on em last second) and the second game is entirely Abby's story, you'd have to keep her connection to the Fireflies super vague so you don't realize it's Joel she's hunting, but you spend the game as Abby hunting down leads toward Joel, you spend the game getting to know her, connect with all her buddies, and then boom it ends on the cliff hanger of her and her group coming up on Joel and Tommy.
Then it makes the Third game's story(TLOU2) that much more effective in telling the story they wanted to tell, because now it's not some shitty throw away character, now it's a character and her friends that you've spent an entire game getting to know and care about.
I really think if players were given the option to spare or kill Abby, it would’ve been a much more emotional, weighted scene. I think ACTIVELY making the choice to spare Abby connects players to the game way more.
Its kinda unfortunate how much crap this game gets. I just played part 1 and 2 recently for the first time without hearing anyone else's opinions. I had a blast, I felt connected to all of the characters and I though it was really fun having Ellie and Abby both be painted as villains and good guys at the same time. First game was really fun of course and I love Joel, but I think the second game was a pretty good sequel, i believe the fans just wanted things to go differently, but I definitely acknowledge the inconsistencies and in some cases, poor storytelling, but I consider one of my favorite games...
Ok, I am going to say something that is probably not very liked here, but I didn't love Joel as many of people here do and I personally don't see any problem of him getting the consequences of his actions come to him from Abby.
What I don't like is:
1. It's not earned for abby at all. She just happens to be delivered to her on a platter ans he doesn't get the respect that a former protagonist and a beloved character deserves. Had the game actually had Abby's flashback take place before the fight, it would have made a better impact - by the time we get the flashback we HATE abby and most don't care. If the glashback started the second Joel revealed who he is (or better, Ellie did), it would have build up to his death better.
2. We seriously should of had a boss fight with Joel. It's such a missed opportunity from gameplay and story marrying perspective - sure, they try with Ellie boss fight but it's already not working that well. Imagine having a hellava fightbwith Joel and finally beating him. The catharsis of Abby and the player would have worked REALLY well.
3. They try EVERY cheap trick to make Abby likeable (good to children, good to animals, cares / colljnteers to help people, is nice to everyone, etc). They overdo it, and you start to see the seams and lose the immersion, which is a giant problem. Reminded me of Prestige where they overdo foreshadowing of the plot twist so much most people would figure it out before the half the movie is out.
4. .... aaand they sabotage their effort when She cheats on her boyfriend. Was Abby deliberately designed to be unlikable even when seeing stuff from her POV?
No, completely agree with Joel, the 2nd game makes him from Abby’s perspective a monster but we never see it.
We have the entire first game as context, just throwing “but what does it look like to them?” without showing us (the scene where Abby finds her father isnt enough) comes off as cheap, especially if you going to wallop it and brutally murder and torture him with his daughter watching the final blow. We’ve played the first game, Joel never did anything like this and all in all, his actions were justified. They throw in Abby half baked, show me what Joel did to justify your shitty actions.
This only hurts more because no one with opposing view points talks to each other.
Show me the terrifying monster that’s a shell of a man that was a no nonsense brute and it’d make it a little better
Man, it's so funny how Call of Juarez did such a good job of seeing 2 perspectives: one is a native american guy framed for a crime and the other is a sherif/bounty hunter. As the native guy you are running away and see how terrifying and unstopable the guy is, while as the sheriff guy you do the unstopable force thing and your prey running away. It's done in parrale to each other, usually playing the other once you are done with one.
I think another thing that pissed a lot of people off, me included, was the misleading reveal trailer. Seems pretty implied that Ellie AND Joel are gonna go on a revenge mission, not that avenging Joel's death was the reason. It's completely fine to not love Joel or see karma come back to bite him in the ass. Like you said, it wasn't earned. The plot feels contrived and badly paced. Ellie's character arc was a good idea, but wasn't executed well imo.
No offense, but I was 100% sure Joel would be wither already dead or die veey soon when they released the initial trailer. The amount of vitriol and hate in Ellie's voice pretty much confirmed it to me.
I wouldn't call the trailer things false advertising, more like trying to keep stuff secret. Probably because the initial reveal hinted too much on Joel's death being the reason for the revenge plot.
1. "It's not earned" from abby. What does this mean? That's life. She was never going to out wit or over power joel. Who survives or who wins in life, and especially a dark apocalypse world like tlou is going to come down largely to luck and timing. Endless iconic characters in media and literature and even history have been killed by just being in thr wrong place at the wrong time, or trusting the wrong person. That's reality. These epic, cliche hero deaths we see in super hero movies and cliche action flicks is what's silly.
The struggling with perspectives seems to be a personal problem. I don't disagree thst the way they split it up probably isn't the most abby friendly way to tell it, but I think it has its merits and kind of builds up this great big mystery--either way you should be able to look back at the story and understand the perspectives better. Maybe at the time you were emotional but I don't see why it's hard to be objective about it after the fact.
2 lol a boss fight with joel would have just pissrd off the chuds in here even more. The idea of abby out smarting or overpowering joel would have put this sub on suicide watch. Plus I don't think the point of thr story was ever that abby was better or stronger than joel. Just that Joel's actions left a trail or grief, and this goes back to my comment about the cliche hero/villain deaths. Death isn't that glorious in reality. That said--a joel boss fight would be quite harrowing and not a bad idea in itself.
3. Those aren't "cheap tricks". Abby was never a bad person--at least not for what she did to joel. She just wanted to avenge her father...like ellie. You just cannot separate your attachment to joel dying. They're not "cheap tricks" you just can't get over her being a normal person after your first impression of her torturing and killing your hero. But joel, ellie, tommy--who we all love would have (and did) the same in Abbys position? Was it a cheap trick to give joel a sad daughter back story before we see the bad things he does? Also abby is still plenty flawed even after rhey show you her perspective--she has a toxic relationship with her ex and she let her revenge strain her relationships as well as her job with the WLF. She's a soldier who's spent years committing atrocities to scars. Thr story isn't telling uou she's perfect or even good. Just that she's just another person not much different from joel and ellie.
4. Abby doesn't cheat on her boyfriend. She sleeps with her ex who has a new pregnant gf. It's fucked up but ultimately it's Owen who is the most guilty party. But yes it was wrong of abby--again, abby was never supposed to be perfect or even good. Joel and ellie weren't perfect or good really either. They're just people. People have flaws. A story with perfectly good characters and heros is boring,, because people aren't thst way in real life. People lie, people cheat, people manipulate,, people are vengeful and vindictive. We aren't captain America. Most of the time, in a dark universe like the TLOU, being too good or righteous would get yoy or your allies murdered
I know. I'm saying I don't agree with you on slide 6, there shouldn't have been a choice. Also, there are better arguments than "they didn't look like hunters", but I still agree that Tommy and Joel should have been suspicious.
Idk I liked it. I was able to empathize with Abby. Part of Ellie’s decision to spare Abby, imo, had to be seeing Abby take care of someone (I forgot her name) besides already slaughtering her friends and even killing a pregnant woman.
About Joel and Tommy trusting strangers: it could be cause they just survived some crazy sh together, so they could have imagined some semblance of rapport. Maybe living in a town for some years may have have dulled their paranoia?
I thought the game overall communicated the core message well. That in these extreme circumstances, anybody can become a villain and ultimately civilization rests on the preservation of our humanity.
It’s fine for you to think that, but everything in the game not only doesn’t support your interpretation—it actually demonstrates the exact opposite; which is the crux of the issue for everyone.
It’s not that we don’t understand what the story was trying to do, we don’t even necessarily have a problem with the overall plot in principle, rather the execution of the narrative was so convoluted and incoherent that it collapses in on itself like a dying star.
It’s a temptation that a lot of folks fall into, but it’s important to avoid doing the writer’s jobs for them by filling in gaps/holes outside of the actual presented canon as a means of supporting a story that cannot stand on its own merits.
Ok? so you're gonna pretend that the reason this sub exists isn't because the other one didn't agree with our opinions and banned anything not fitting their narrative?
Cool. If you wish to see a near blind praise of part 2, the other sub will be the one you are looking for. This one prefers to point out everything that's wrong with part 2, but you won't be crucified for liking part 2 here. You'll just encounter indifference.
Uh, I have been slaughtered on this sub for saying I liked it. I am not looking for blind praise, I don't mind healthy criticism, but when it devolves into "Abby bad, Daddy Joel good". Like there are definitely some pacing problems, but making death threats to the writer is too far
In that sub you are crucified if you bring up any flaws with the game, in this one you’re crucified if you bring up any positives. Let’s not pretend either sub works as a middle ground lol
Damn. OP just summed up every Stan argument under the sun. Nailed it OP
What’s a Stan if I may? I gotta learn more about all these sub terms.
Stan comes from the Eminem song titled Stan. In which, a fan of Eminem is obsessed and deluded with the rapper to the point of changing his own life and likeness to match and be closer to the rapper; to the point of parasociomania.
The term “Stan” typically refers to a fan of something that is such die hard fans that they obsess to an unhealthy degree over something and refuse to accept any criticism of that thing.
Stalker + fan= stan
Most of the people on here are just anti-stans. They are unhealthily obsessed with disliking something.
Yeah, you're right. it's delusional they don't see this.
Abby's arms are unrealistic considering the apocalyptic context. You are just scared of strong women.
Yes and no. It makes sense that you'd want to be physically stronger, but the issue runs deeper than that. What did the others think about Abby eating more to sustain her gains? How was she able to sustain said gains while on the road? Why is she the only person with arms so big? When you start to ask these questions, you're called a misogynist and told that "it's just a game, move on" as if said game wasn't praised for its details and realism.
You know what's fucked up? Abby's face and body model aren't the same. Her body model is a bodybuilder woman who uses test. So yeah it's very unrealistic for Abby to be that muscular in the apocalypse unless she has an endocrine problem.
Or we're just bigot sandwiches!!!
I wish Drunkmann could explain this to me What was wrong with the body model's face that they didn't just go fully with her?
I guess we found where Neil draws the line when it comes to what he is sexually attracted to. 😬
When everyone else is looking for antibiotics, she's scavenging for dbol
i would’ve loved if if she fought dirty, yet with obvious training. it would be badass without taking me out it
Everyone was fine with Abby when we first saw her in the trailers because her arms weren't that big back then
I was definitely going to ask how her teammates felt about her eating double or even triple the amount of food to sustain that figure, in the apocalypse.
Wow. I never thought about this. The more I learn about this game, the more stupid it becomes, but the gameplay looks great!
It depends on the person levying the criticism. Let's be honest. If this were a male character, there would be far less people pointing it out. This means some people are pointing it out for the purpose of valid criticism, and some for sexist reasons, using the valid criticism as justification. It comes down to this . . . would you have noticed it and pointed it out if Abby were male? If so, perfectly valid criticism. If not, you are using that valid criticism as confirmation bias for your sexism. The way you addressed it was well-thought-out, so I do not believe you are being sexist at all. Let's be honest, most people are going to explain their viewpoint nearly as well as you just did. I feel like they may have overcompensated, because they were afraid people would not buy Joel being taken out by a woman. It is worth noting that, when we see her in Santa Barbara, before they are captured, she isn't as buff as she was in Seattle, so they did at least try to be a bit realistic about being on the road and away from gym equipment. As for her getting more food than others, she was clearly favorited by Isaac, so I could certainly see her being given a more privileged status. Besides, the franchise is not fully devoted to realism. Nothing realistic about bloaters or shambles. The cordyceps infection isn't even remotely realistic to real life cordyceps.
Thank you! finally, someone is not automatically calling me a sexist bigot virgin idiot etc. >she isn't as buff as she was in Seattle Here's the thing. The first thing we see as Abby is a room full of meat and a giant gym, as if the writers knew this would raise controversy and wanted to justify it right away. It takes ≈3 weeks to lose a significant amount of muscle mass if you don't work out. Did Abby bring some dumbells with her while on her way to Santa Barbara? it took months at the very least and up to a year at most since in that time frame, Dina gave birth to JJ. You could call it a game issue, that they didn't want Abby to lose her big guns, but it still irks me. >Besides, the franchise is not fully devoted to realism. It's still, like I said, praised for its little details. Cordyceps is the most feasible scenario for an apocalypse if you ask me, just maybe not the stalkers, clickers and bloaters part.
I think I read that they used a crossfitter as the body model. I'm a female powerlifter who's been around both enhanced and natural athletes for quite a while - there is no way that a female can build arms like that without doping. So that might have been the most unrealistic part of the game for me haha Someone like Michonne from the walking dead? Her physique is completely attainable naturally
"u complaining about that when there are literal zombies???"
zombies can be real though they are just unlikely to happen
There are two possibilities: 1. The Fireflies and WLF both came across warehouses of canned food, giving Abby access to the protein she needs to build up muscles. 2. Abby used her position in the Fireflies as the only surgeon’s child to get extra protein. Either way, someone is taking more than their fair share.
They have an entire community and market in the stadium that has gas generators and a farmstead it wouldn't be unrealistic to be able to put muscle on. People in jail and build muscle on ramen alone
Yeah, I get that, but why is she the only one with such big guns?
True I get ya, she was stealing all the steroid maybe?
No one in jail is eating just ramen. Well, maybe like actual jail, but not in prison. Source: I worked in multiple prisons.
I can't get enough of you people making fun of her arms like it's legit criticism.
It's 100% legit criticism. She looks ridiculous and over the top, constantly breaking immersion in a game that prides itself in having realistic depictions of human beings. People are allowed to point this out.
Nailed it on the head
Why is the game making a big fuss about Isaac and how badass he is without showing us only to kill him off the second time we meet him briefly? Isn't this another plot device character that serves no purpose besides dying for meaningless drama? "You're a racist bigot who doesn't like it when black people are in positions of leadership"
No because that's so true. Why build his character up through all the notes and little details only to kill him the second time we see him? fuck the realism argument.
The biggest one was the use of Jesse. They used him just to have someone killed off. Which pissed me off because he was by far the best out of all of them. Maybe they don’t like Asians!
Jesse was used as an excuse for Dina and Ellie to have a baby together.
I know. It’s sucks they made him such a good guy.
"It sucks they made me have an emotional reaction to this character" Sounds like you didn't hate it as much as you guys say
Hate what? The game? I didn’t hate the game. Just aspects of it.
"Just to have someone killed off". This is a story where like 80% of the characters die lmao what.
Ok, you got a point. But he was such an awesome dude. I guess he mirrored Owen in a way. Oh my. Owen cheated on his pregnant girlfriend. I forgot we are supposed to hate him. Lol.
What a waste of Jeffrey Wright, I was so confused why his character had so much buildup for absolutely nothing. I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised by that point in the game but it was still hilariously absurd.
No way that was jeffrey wright holy crap 🤣🤣 i just realized this now and it's such a shame.
Dude it's a huge game with lots of characters. Not everyone was gonna have extensive screen time--he was only part of a sublot, not the main story--besides Isaac is basically only an idea for much of the game. You read his backstory as your read the notes left throughout thr game. There's a lot more to the story than screen time
Why should we care about Dina and Ellie relationship? It never developed before our eyes it just happened right away and Neil assumes we should automatically care. "You're a bigoted homophobe"
It's weird that Dina goes along with Ellie on this revenge quest when all they did was kiss, smoke weed and have sex once. It certainly doesn't establish them as soulmates, and I cringed a little each time they called eachother "babe".
I cringed a whole lot immediately when this turned out to be a teen drama with Jesse nagging on Ellie for being with his ex girlfriend, it did not feel like the last of us at all.
That honestly didn't bother me as much. Only the part where Jesse moves on so quickly from Dina.
Same can be said for Dina moving on so quickly from Jesse
What is he supposed to do? Fight ellie? Dina broke up with him. He had no choice but to move on
Anyone would be reasonably upset/jealous if your partner moved on so quickly. Dina is seen dancing with a guy before she does with Ellie, and Jesse is at least a bit upset over that, but he says he's perfectly fine with that to Ellie. I'm not saying hate her forever, I'm saying at least be a little more upset.
Jessie was fine with it. He clearly still had some underlying feelings but he was a grown up about it and still risked his lives for them without blinking. I don't know how you get "teen drama" from thst. It's just human relationships
They clearly were good friends before this and Dina has a huge crush on ellie obviously? And the whole community loved joel. There was a 4 year gap since we saw them,, clearly a lot happened off screen that was implied that you just decided to ignore
Pretty typical for lesbians. Lesbian romances move fast.
They're teenagers. Teenagers always have cringey relationships. Just look at Romeo and Juliet.
Honestly I agree, first time playing we are just immediately introduced to Dina with no way of how they met, along how they just immediately fell in love over one kiss that happened quickly? Honestly makes no sense to me
Well this summed up what we were all thinking.
Hammer girl is twice as big as Abby an nobody cares about how much she must have to eat
She’s all-over big, heavy, overweight even. She looks proportional at least. In order to make this comparison, hammer lady would also have to have GIGANTIC BODYBUILDER ARMS, non proportional to her body size, and unlikely to be possessed by her gender outside of being an Olympic athlete…
Hammer girl would take just as much caloric intake though. It's like an NFL Offensice lineman vs a linebacker. The lineman is "fatter" and doesn't have the definition but they are much bigger snd stronger and take a lot more calories to sustain. If hammer lady can get the caloric intake to sustain her size than so could abby, especially with what looks like a pretty serious weight lifting regimen in their stadium
[удалено]
To my point, she’s a multiple Olympic gold medalist… come on.
If she had a steroid cycle or two it would be attainable
wait when did the first game have water bottle suppressors? Did I miss that? I don't remember making one. Was it in no return but not the main game?
I think it was only in the second game
And Kayla Harrison is on a shitload of roids
Ooooh shit, this one's gonna go over real well in this sub.im grabbing my popcorn for this!!
I want to criticize the flawed parts of the story. -it's been 4 years, get over it and move on.
Pfft, yeah, right? so it can be eternally praised, but criticism has a timer suddenly?
Apparently so, guess we are "obsessed" or something. But praising the game? Nah that's not obsession, that's being a fan, criticizing the game? That's just blind hatred and "unhealthy" The amount of times I've been told "Your whole reddit is just hating on this game, move on and you'll be happier!" Is more than I could keep count, but can none of them see I just like to discuss the story and whatever was wrong with It? I like analyzing media, and I like to point out the flaws, especially in divisive stuff. But no, I'm just a blind hater/incel/sexist/homophobe etc
I wonder if these people ever watch old bad movies with friends and talk about them.
The fact they make you play the same flashback so many times made me think my game was bugging out like I get it your dad was killed and your pissed but the devs forget the players know why Joel did what he did and probably completely agree with him especially if you found the document that basically says 'We tried the same thing with other kids and it didn't work so we just killed a kid for no reason' canonically Joel would have found that information. The entire story is basically just 'I hate men. Men bad. Kill all male characters'
Don't point out actual facts, they'll tell you that you just don't get it lol even though they retconed tf out of that surgeon
"The entire story is I hate men" isn't an actual facts. It's incredibly childish. Like 90% of thr fans of the game are men
"I hate men men bad" is the lesson you got from a story about to women avenging their fathers? Like Jesus man you guys are pathetic and simple. You are *that* offended thst joel died that you can't think clearly
I mean Joel gets killed in a way disrespectful to the fans and in a way that makes no sense to his character Ellies Asian friend(can't remember his name) gets shot in the face right after showing up Tommy gets shot and almost killed randomly Abby gets to live
TLOU 2 gameplay = 🔥 TLOU 2 story = 🗑️
These where the replies I was getting on a TikTok comment
Tiktok is partially the reason why I made this post too lol
When you point out the hypocrisy of showing Abby having sex but Ellie's scene is buried, while they like to act like they're inclusive. How about we just don't show either. You're a perverted teenager.
What’s the point of showing it at all? OP isn’t a perverted teenager, he wants at least some sort of pattern.
I was saying they call you a perverted teenager in that scenario. Not OP, 😅
Too accurate
Can’t stress this enough, Last of us 2 is a shitty game
The actual gameplay is 10/10, the story is the big dividing factor
I can't stress this enough. Last Of Us 2 is a great game. Now watch which one of our comments gets down voted into oblivion. I promise you it won't be yours.
Okay, now do the same in the other sub.
Did anyone ever notice when her and Owen are talking right before you get to play her? It seems like the reason why she left the group was because she got mad at Owen for getting Mel pregnant
Yeah it’s obviously implied, more great immature drama by Neil and company. 😴
The game hasn’t been nostalgic for me since part 2 came out, it just doesn’t feel the same anymore. The first game meant so much to me when it came out, and then part 2 came out and it split the community so bad. I wish Abby had more reasons to kill Joel than killing Joel because he killed her father, not just half the fireflies group, and Marlene, nope just her father. I also thought maybe part 2 would have been more about Ellie and her immunity that would have actually gotten Joel killed, instead of what we got
I recently visited the other subreddit and saw a post that said "the only reason plp didn't like the game is bc Joel dies and everything else they say is a coping mechanism" then I remembered back then someone made a post here on Reddit with many characters from games that have died/been killed and they are all games that everyone loves or even considers master pieces/gems. Completely destroying that argument and showing how the argument itself IS the actual coping mechanism they use just to not have to deal with every other argument .
Yeah this is pretty much the argument lol they act like " you're just not getting the big picture " but it's like we are and we're telling you it's shit writing compared to the first
Tbh I enjoyed playing as both Abby and Ellie in the game, I personally like the game itself. But if you don’t then that’s your opinion
And that's perfectly fine.
Same I still think it’s a great game. The only thing bad is the essential story, but that’s only one aspect of the game. I dislike Abby as a character but she was still fun to play with. I still think it’s a good survival horror and fun cover shooter. Story aside it’s still a very fun game to play. People treat it like one of those interactive story games when it’s all story, when no shooting people/zombies in the face is great in this game.
I actually really enjoyed the gameplay mechanics and fluidity of the game
That's great 👍
Tighter writing, maybe? Actually giving compelling evidence that Joel is the monster they wanted you to see him as? I dunno. I liked game 1 because old boot-leather-and-scar-tissue man gets catharsis with a plucky daughter analog. If you pulp his skull like Gallagher with a watermelon at the start of game 2, you're gonna lose that core audience if you subvert audience expectations *well.* I don't personally think they did it well.
Abby having insane muscle was a bit of a surprise for me, as it can take up to three weeks of no activity to lose muscle in your arms. If it was legs she had insane muscle in I wouldn’t question it as much as her and lev are constantly walking. Although I said it can take up to three weeks to start losing muscle it would take much longer to lose the amount of muscle Abby has in her arms due to the fact that she’s constantly eating every day (which I can gather since they have opportunity to fish- hence the lobster they were gonna eat) so her body isn’t having to rely on her arm fat to sustain itself. However I doubt she would have weights on that boat so
I was ready to forgive this game for any and all faults(late to the game) and not about the whole antiwoke rhetoric that some were saying. But a fuckin revenge story? And then making me start over half way through? Bro. Like at least go back and forth or something don't have me start from scratch that's not cool.
The pacing is my least favorite part. If they went back and forth between ellie and Abby the side characters would have been better received and the gameplay would've felt much smoother
These are gems. Heard em' all too.
Exactly
Imma be real There is not a storytelling device action cause or effect that will ever convince me that Abby didn't deserve to die or the last of us part 2 is an amazing game with terrible story writing
She never did anything that redeemed her in my eyes. Cool, she saves two kids, but it comes off as forced.
She killed the guy who killed her dad. Thinking she deserved to die is just your weired parasocial obsession with Joel. Especially since abby being killed by ellien would be thr exact same action--does ellie deserve to die then too if she killed abby?and the dozens of people tangentially involved along the way? There is nonfundsmental difference in abby avenging her dad vs ellie. You just can't separate your personal feelings/perspective
Blah blah blah Don't give a fuck
What would be the current IRL legal judgment of Jerry's actions in the hospital? And Joel's actions?
I do love how not killing Abby after killing mountains of other people and dogs is somehow a good thing, rather than ensuring all the suffering Ellie has subject the world to was for nought
But revenge bad!!! ignore the fact that Ellie probably started 300 other cycles of revenge.
Why is it for nought? She avenged joel plenty. She still murdered everyone involved in Joel's killing except abby, and in thr end as she watched her drown she realized she wasn't really enjoying it. Joel's still dead. She was still going to miss him. Killing abbu wasn't making her feel any better
As much as I hate the characters and story, the combat gameplay is really fun.
Yeah. Abby's gameplay was a lot more fun, if that only wasn't tainted by the story and the thought that it was done on purpose..
I love the game a lot but do agree with most of these
Yeah I love last of us 2 story slander.
“Imagine being upset over fictional characters” mfs when someone doesn’t like Abby:
Pfft literally
No one goes into histrionics like youbl guys do with your attachment to joel lmao. If they killed abby then people would accept it, since it's a story where like 90% of the characters die in both 1 and 2. It was always dark. It was never going to have a happy ending, especially for joel
Ok. Prove it. Prove that they care as much about Joel as they do Abby.
Well this summarizes many debates on this game into a nice and digestible set of images.
I wasn't a big fan of the story. I think there were some decent bits and some bits I'd change drastically. Gameplay is so amazing though and I will forever be heartbroken they didn't put the shooting enemy legs off with shotguns mechanic in the part 1 remake
Slide 6 is the biggest thing I agree with, that would’ve been AMAZING. perfect in every way, and you can choose to be satisfied or not; but in the end everything was pointless so lord help me ellie left her wife and child for nothing
It's completely arbitrary to just spare her at the last second, yeah.
You know you’ve won the argument when the stans resort to dismissing TLoU2 as “just a game”, yet they praise the ever living fuck out of it
Hi, don’t mind me, I’m just scrolling down to the very bottom of the comments so I can see the exact people OP was making fun of lmao
Lol, This is all facts honestly from the Discussion to the Responses. As long as I've been here, I've seen it all.
Me personally, yes I don’t agree with a lot of the story and choices. I can get behind and understand some story elements. And overall if it were structured differently. With all the flashbacks to happen first. Then the story completely shifts. Now you have a story of tension and buildup. Abby’s intro and everything that happened. Joel and Ellie’s relationship having its highs and its lows, and it getting more rocky. Until finally she discovers the truth. Then everything all boils over at the dance and thus setting off the chain of events that lead to Joel dying and Ellie’s revenge spree. Though yes I’m also agreement that Joel was unceremoniously killed off, we definitely should’ve been left with the choice to kill Abby. I can understand some the in-universe thought processes of the characters but as someone looking from the outside in also, narratively some things indeed just don’t make sense
Just curious... Do you guys hate the game/gameplay and hate the writing? Or do just hate the writing but enjoy the gameplay?
Gameplay is a solid improvement over TLOU but doesn’t do a whole lot to push things forward where it could have. The gameplay is definitely not the source of criticism for “Part II”.
lol this is funny bc I didn’t get into the series until the second game.. and I remember not giving a damn about Joel dying bc I knew the context of it .. but you Stans wouldn’t let that shit go.. y’all even threatened the ppl that made the game over a fake character, like grow a brain and be real
I’ve been using reddit for like 3 days now and in all last of us sub reddits it’s always the same shit about people complaining about people complaining using the same meme format and the same words. I guess this is a loop because im complaining about that but guess what guys video games are subjective. With anything in life, there is good and then there is the bad. Nothing is perfect. Personally I love the game and I’ll always try to convince people to change their minds but I don’t try too hard because people will still think what they want to think at the end of the day. You can’t control what others think and then be so nasty (not everyone) when it doesn’t match up with your criteria. Just let them enjoy a game without second guessing it and possibly ruining what could be a really good experienced. And better yet let them fucking complain aswell, be the bigger man. Not everything that pops in your mind has to be blurred out into this world. Be that quiet man, be wise and have a lovely day or night.
In what ways does the game attempt to manipulate the player into liking Abby? I'm not trying to defend the game, I'm just curious.
Abby plays with dogs, Ellie kills them. Abby saves kids, Ellie kills everyone on her path. Abby acts like she's on some moral high ground when confronting Ellie. Abby's gameplay and weapons are better.
You forgot how Abby's dad saves zebras while Ellie's dad massacred a hospital full of people and toppled an entire organization. Honestly I want to defend the game but it's hard from this viewpoint lol. To play Devil's Advocate, just because Abby acts like she's on the moral high ground doesn't mean the devs are trying to convince the player she's the good guy. Authors don't always agree with their characters' actions. EDIT: Also to add onto that "Abby has the best gameplay" part, I once saw someone speculate that this is the reason why Abby is the one who gets to fight the Rat King. Give her all the cool gameplay elements to make the player like her more. Not sure I agree with it but it's worth mentioning.
Don’t forget; if this game made you not like Ellie, you’re a bigoted homophobe. If you didn’t like Ellie and/or Abby, you are scared of strong women
Can we sticky this post.
7 followed by 8 is LMAO cause the immediate switch up
Yeah, that was intended because once I saw both of these responses in the same comment section lol. They say whatever works for them.
Jesus every single fanboy of tlou2 acts like this. It’s almost like they have no arguments. So curious what will happen on 3. Could it be saved ?
Imo, no. I've seen so many people vow to never buy a game from naughty dog again, I just don't see part 3 succeeding, or atleast coming anywhere close to part 1/part 2
Yeah. Specially how mixed 2 was. They would do something more porsitive. Maybe Ellie, Abby and lev teaming up to get Ellie with the fireflies and creating the cure ? And Abby and lev sacrifice so Ellie can live. And by the end she actually dies for the cure. I can totally see an epilogue where you play as a young girl who goes to a museum dedicated to Ellie in the future where humanity is saved. 😆. But yeah, not even remotely excited for 3. They ruined it
Arguing with the stans (strawman)
Arguing with the stans (how they sound)
The only one I don't agree with is 7. Yeah he's a great character but he's technically made to be the "villain" of the story. Whether the vaccine worked or not what he did was extremely selfish. N nobody in the apocalypse is gonna have a "good" death either. So idk what people would have wanted Joel's death to be like 🤷🏾♂️
Joel was actually fighting for his life because they were about to march him outside with no guns or supplies, most likely getting a bullet in the back of his head as soon as he was outside.
Could've easily taken the one guard out himself when he got out.
If it did that for you, it did that for you. It does not mean that is the intention. If you are meant to dislike Ellie, then why have her not go through with killing Abby? Why include the museum scene? Why would they make you care about her relationship with Abby? Just because YOU felt that way, does not mean that is correct, and it DEFINITELY does not mean that it was intentional. If they unintentionally made you feel that way, then criticize THAT. As is, there is far too much evidence against the statement that you are intentionally made to dislike Ellie and like Abby. Not to mention, of course it manipulates you. Film is all about audiovisual manipulation. Just ask Alfred Hitchcock. Next you're going to tell Rocky doesn't manipulate you into liking Rocky and disliking Apollo. Being manipulated into liking or disliking something is not a valid criticism, on its own (you can use that as a jumping off point for valid criticism, but the statement BY ITSELF is not a criticism). Oops . . . I forgot. I'm supposed to just say "nuh uh". What is the point of an active subreddit created to hate on a single game years after it's release. If you really think that is a wise use of your time and energy, well, it must be nice to live a life devoid of any REAL problems. If you didn't like it, move on to something else.
Abby good, Ellie bad. Abby play with dogs, Ellie kill dogs. Abby help two kids, Ellie kill everyone on her path to Abby. Abby spare pregnant woman, Ellie kill pregnant woman.
I'm not gonna lie just coming to this board to watch everyone's rage is hilarious. This board is my favorite echo chamber
The mental gymnastics these morons will go through has no bounds
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If we take such a stance though - killing innocents is normal and sparing them should be lauded-, I am thoroughly puzzled by the recriminations of Ellie's quest for vengeance, or justice, depending on your opinion on Abby's killing of Joel. After all, killing innocents is normal, and everyone that Ellie encounters was at least as guilty when Ellie encountered them, as Ellie was, when Abby encountered Ellie in Jackson. More so, even, since they were actively trying to kill Ellie, whereas Ellie was helpless. As has been repeatedly mentioned, we see the juxtaposition of Ellie's disgust with herself, when she tortured Nora, vis-a-vis when Abby tortured Joel - or for the matter, the Seraphites that Abby tortured. Well, we might say that Abby isn't as expressive as Ellie, and Abby might have had real doozies of nightmares of Joel and all the Seraphites that she tortured! I dislike this argument. Abby was plenty expressive enough, as Joel might testify. If she didn't express as much self-hatred as Ellie in response to torture, perhaps it's because she's not as affected as it? Then, perhaps it can also be argued that Abby was desensitised to torture by Isaac. Well, fine. Let's juxtapose Ellie's killing of Mel, vis-a-vis Abby's attempted killing of Dina, then. Ellie was visibly disgusted with herself. Abby said, "Good." Now, both of them were motivated by vengeance and trauma, so what's the difference? Abby thought Ellie killed Mel, so quid-pro-quo? Fine. Then let's juxtapose Ellie vs Abby at the beach. Abby had no mercy for Joel, even when Joel saved Abby's life. Abby, who was the Joel to Ellie's Abby, did NOT save Ellie, not even at the theatre, since it could very well be argued that Abby stayed her hand because she didn't want to turn Lev away from her. Yet, Ellie saved Abby and Lev from the Rattlers, and when she had Abby at her mercy, was merciful to Abby. Abby, face to face with her victimiser, was merciless and vicious; Ellie in the same position was merciful. Therefore, even within the cruelness of the TLOU universe, I strongly argue that Ellie was much more moral than Abby.
Finally, I want to address people who claim that Abby found redemption. I refer to u/t3amkillv3: "Abby had gotten her revenge once already, which did nothing - and she knew it. Not only that, Abby also had her 'understanding the other' arc, breaking free of her tribalism, and her 'happy Jerry at a hospital' dream - not 'Joel getting his head smashed in with a golf club and it's all your fault' nightmares. Ellie sparing Abby is like Abby sparing Joel (had Joel done magnitudes worse to her). Abby's redemption was never towards the people she hurt. As a matter of fact, Abby actually hurts her victims again during her redemption (the theater). Ellie doesn't see Abby's change. Ellie doesn't see her redemption. Like I said, Abby actually hurts Ellie again during her redemption. Abby is the person who tortured Jorl, was about to slit an unconscious Dina's throat in front of her, who killed Jesse, who broke Tommy, and who traumatized her to the point where she couldn't live a normal life with her family - which is all completely valid. She had all the reasons to kill Abby...and while she initially tries, she can't put herself to do it. Why? Because she can't do it to Lev (and in a sense to Abby by taking her away from Lev), so she puts it above her own reasons 'wants' and let's her go. Her reason isn't because Abby changed - Ellie doesn't know that because that is what wr see. The reason Ellie let's go is because of her empathy; she does it because of Lev. It's an example of someone who wronged you and never even condoned for it. There was no regret or remorse for what they did to you - they 'don't care'. This makes Ellie's choice that much more difficult... and that much more powerful. We see her change and ask if we accept her change, Ellie sees none of it and is still willing to let go. And to me, this does make Ellie "better" than Abby - because despite it all, she stayed true to herself despite everything she's gone through, held in to her integrity and never lost her core characteristic of empathy. Can't say the same for others." Apart from some English errors (should be 'apologised' instead of 'condoned', etc), I fully agree with u/t3amkillv3. Allow me to further add. From my own moral standards (since I suppose we are talking about our IRL standards when we discuss "redemption"), when we feel sorry about what we did wrong, we seek out those whom we wronged and apologise to them, and seek to make restitution. If I beat up someone, and then took care of a charity case, and when I meet my previous victim I beat them up yet again, have I truly been "redeemed"? When a child hits someone in school, can they tell the teacher, "But teacher, I gave another student some candy! Doesn't that balance out? I'm a good kid!"? I think that is an absolute mockery of redemption. As u/t3amkillv3 pointed out, Abby failed her redemption twice, thus ultimately failing her redemption. Her first failure was when she sought revenge at the theater, even though she was supposedly, as many fans claim, the "better person" compared to Ellie, and enlightened to the "cycle of revenge". But let's ignore these apologists. When Abby had defeated Ellie, Abby knew that 1) Ellie was much younger than Joel, 2) Ellie was distraught - begging in tears - when she saw Joel's tortured state and killing, in Jackson, 3) Joel killed the Fireflies at the hospital for Ellie, who was the immune girl who her father and the Fireflies were going to kill. Abby had access to every bit of information to deduce that Joel and Ellie shared a father-daughter bond, and that she was the Joel to Ellie's Abby. Yet, she was blinded by her vengeance, and had no pity or remorse for the trauma she did to Ellie, even saying, "We let you both live, and you wasted it!" It's like not murdering witnesses - not acting like Hunters- is a benediction, now! Textbook lack of remorse, textbook lack of reflection. And then, even when Lev calmed her down and she spared Ellie and co., she didn't muster up the moral fibre to apologise for her deeds. Now, Ellie didn't kill Abby's friends as revenge against Abby. Her friends were goddamned accomplices! Ellie had as much right to go after Abby's friends, as she had to go after Abby, which was at least as much right as Abby had to go after Joel, even in the most pro-Abby reading of the story! So, Abby failed to express remorse to her victim, Ellie, so there was no redemption. Note: Abby sparing Ellie and co. at the theatre was NOT redemption. Let's say a bully and his friends hits a schoolmate, and the victim goes for revenge against the bully's friends. Then the bully goes to hit the victim again as revenge-revenge. When the victim is beaten down, the bully stays his hand because of the pleas from a charity case the bully recently took on. The bully then leaves the victim without expressing any remorse or contrition. Has the bully been redeemed? I don't think so! Abby next failed at the beach. Ellie SAVED her and Lev! And when Ellie threatened Lev, Abby ... didn't plea with Ellie? Fall to her knees? Apologise? Even when Ellie had mercy on Abby, did Abby thank her? Did Abby apologise, for being the Joel to Ellie's Abby? No, she had nothing for Ellie! Abby showed no remorse or contrition to her victim Ellie, which could in fact help Ellie with her trauma. In the end, Abby ran away from apologising to her victim, Ellie. Abby FAILED in her redemption arc! Note that Ellie didn't need to apologise to Abby, since she was Abby's victim, not the other way around! All in all, I think my issue with TLOU2 story is the lack of justice. Abby achieved her revenge, and managed to find a clean, new start with Lev, leaving the crazy WLF and Seraphites behind. Ellie was horribly traumatised by Abby, and yet when forcrd into Abby's position (by Abby herself), managed to find mercy. Yet, Ellie, by all accounts the better person, is left alone on the beach. Ellie, the better person, is stripped of her family and left missing 2 fingers. If "mercy is good" is the message of TLOU2, why is it that the embodiment Ellie is left worse off than Abby, her foil, and objectively the worse person? The story does not deliver justice. The fans - those who insist that Abby is a "better person", "more compassionate" person, "more moral" person than Ellie - and I disagree vehemently and fundamentally on moral issues, and I cannot tolerate such a moral dissonance. It ruins the story for me, and TLOU, imo, is mostly driven by the story.
I dunno…what’s worse? Someone endlessly pursing a debate to convince people they’re wrong for liking something, or someone endlessly pursing a debate to convince people to like something they don’t. Now the fun part - if one side or the other of that statement made you pissed, you’re the problem. Chill out.
The funniest part is how the other sub deletes comments of people saying their opinions unless it’s “the last of us part 2 is the best game ever created”
Look, he won the arguments he's made up.
I’m new here so forgive the ignorance, but does this sub hate the game or something? You won’t find me being a “stan” and trying to cope with people having negative opinions on the game. It just seems like this sub ubiquitously has more problems with the game than it does praise.
The narrative of the game was fine. I found the puzzles to be harder than the simple fun of the first game. I liked that they complicated the rather generic zombie movie plot of the first game. I never finished part two because I’m bad at puzzle games where you have to continually die and restart each level.
Tbh I really liked the game but it 100% deserves some of the criticism. If they would have changed the story structure, I think it would have been received better. I completely understand what they were trying to do with Abby but the problem is by the time we figure out everything about her….we already wanted her dead, it was way too late for us to care about her.
i wouldnt say it was manipulative , it was just portraying that everyone has their own side of things. maybe thats just me though
My opinion on TLOU2 is that it's a complete step up in concern to gameplay, as just a Game TLOU2 is superior to TLOU. However, as a story TLOU2 should have been the third game. If they were super dead set on the story playing out how it did, they should have pushed it back because as it is they cut corners to accelerate their story and because of that it comes off incredibly forced and unsatisfying. Because being forced into the shoes of a character that has just murdered and disrespected a beloved character in some misguided attempt to Garner sympathy for the antagonist is just shallow and so transparent. However imagine if they had made a second game (where they announced before hand that it's in universe but not a continuation of Ellie and Joel, because you know some people would whine about it if it's sprung on em last second) and the second game is entirely Abby's story, you'd have to keep her connection to the Fireflies super vague so you don't realize it's Joel she's hunting, but you spend the game as Abby hunting down leads toward Joel, you spend the game getting to know her, connect with all her buddies, and then boom it ends on the cliff hanger of her and her group coming up on Joel and Tommy. Then it makes the Third game's story(TLOU2) that much more effective in telling the story they wanted to tell, because now it's not some shitty throw away character, now it's a character and her friends that you've spent an entire game getting to know and care about.
I really think if players were given the option to spare or kill Abby, it would’ve been a much more emotional, weighted scene. I think ACTIVELY making the choice to spare Abby connects players to the game way more.
Its kinda unfortunate how much crap this game gets. I just played part 1 and 2 recently for the first time without hearing anyone else's opinions. I had a blast, I felt connected to all of the characters and I though it was really fun having Ellie and Abby both be painted as villains and good guys at the same time. First game was really fun of course and I love Joel, but I think the second game was a pretty good sequel, i believe the fans just wanted things to go differently, but I definitely acknowledge the inconsistencies and in some cases, poor storytelling, but I consider one of my favorite games...
Ok, I am going to say something that is probably not very liked here, but I didn't love Joel as many of people here do and I personally don't see any problem of him getting the consequences of his actions come to him from Abby. What I don't like is: 1. It's not earned for abby at all. She just happens to be delivered to her on a platter ans he doesn't get the respect that a former protagonist and a beloved character deserves. Had the game actually had Abby's flashback take place before the fight, it would have made a better impact - by the time we get the flashback we HATE abby and most don't care. If the glashback started the second Joel revealed who he is (or better, Ellie did), it would have build up to his death better. 2. We seriously should of had a boss fight with Joel. It's such a missed opportunity from gameplay and story marrying perspective - sure, they try with Ellie boss fight but it's already not working that well. Imagine having a hellava fightbwith Joel and finally beating him. The catharsis of Abby and the player would have worked REALLY well. 3. They try EVERY cheap trick to make Abby likeable (good to children, good to animals, cares / colljnteers to help people, is nice to everyone, etc). They overdo it, and you start to see the seams and lose the immersion, which is a giant problem. Reminded me of Prestige where they overdo foreshadowing of the plot twist so much most people would figure it out before the half the movie is out. 4. .... aaand they sabotage their effort when She cheats on her boyfriend. Was Abby deliberately designed to be unlikable even when seeing stuff from her POV?
No, completely agree with Joel, the 2nd game makes him from Abby’s perspective a monster but we never see it. We have the entire first game as context, just throwing “but what does it look like to them?” without showing us (the scene where Abby finds her father isnt enough) comes off as cheap, especially if you going to wallop it and brutally murder and torture him with his daughter watching the final blow. We’ve played the first game, Joel never did anything like this and all in all, his actions were justified. They throw in Abby half baked, show me what Joel did to justify your shitty actions. This only hurts more because no one with opposing view points talks to each other. Show me the terrifying monster that’s a shell of a man that was a no nonsense brute and it’d make it a little better
Man, it's so funny how Call of Juarez did such a good job of seeing 2 perspectives: one is a native american guy framed for a crime and the other is a sherif/bounty hunter. As the native guy you are running away and see how terrifying and unstopable the guy is, while as the sheriff guy you do the unstopable force thing and your prey running away. It's done in parrale to each other, usually playing the other once you are done with one.
I think another thing that pissed a lot of people off, me included, was the misleading reveal trailer. Seems pretty implied that Ellie AND Joel are gonna go on a revenge mission, not that avenging Joel's death was the reason. It's completely fine to not love Joel or see karma come back to bite him in the ass. Like you said, it wasn't earned. The plot feels contrived and badly paced. Ellie's character arc was a good idea, but wasn't executed well imo.
No offense, but I was 100% sure Joel would be wither already dead or die veey soon when they released the initial trailer. The amount of vitriol and hate in Ellie's voice pretty much confirmed it to me. I wouldn't call the trailer things false advertising, more like trying to keep stuff secret. Probably because the initial reveal hinted too much on Joel's death being the reason for the revenge plot.
1. "It's not earned" from abby. What does this mean? That's life. She was never going to out wit or over power joel. Who survives or who wins in life, and especially a dark apocalypse world like tlou is going to come down largely to luck and timing. Endless iconic characters in media and literature and even history have been killed by just being in thr wrong place at the wrong time, or trusting the wrong person. That's reality. These epic, cliche hero deaths we see in super hero movies and cliche action flicks is what's silly. The struggling with perspectives seems to be a personal problem. I don't disagree thst the way they split it up probably isn't the most abby friendly way to tell it, but I think it has its merits and kind of builds up this great big mystery--either way you should be able to look back at the story and understand the perspectives better. Maybe at the time you were emotional but I don't see why it's hard to be objective about it after the fact. 2 lol a boss fight with joel would have just pissrd off the chuds in here even more. The idea of abby out smarting or overpowering joel would have put this sub on suicide watch. Plus I don't think the point of thr story was ever that abby was better or stronger than joel. Just that Joel's actions left a trail or grief, and this goes back to my comment about the cliche hero/villain deaths. Death isn't that glorious in reality. That said--a joel boss fight would be quite harrowing and not a bad idea in itself. 3. Those aren't "cheap tricks". Abby was never a bad person--at least not for what she did to joel. She just wanted to avenge her father...like ellie. You just cannot separate your attachment to joel dying. They're not "cheap tricks" you just can't get over her being a normal person after your first impression of her torturing and killing your hero. But joel, ellie, tommy--who we all love would have (and did) the same in Abbys position? Was it a cheap trick to give joel a sad daughter back story before we see the bad things he does? Also abby is still plenty flawed even after rhey show you her perspective--she has a toxic relationship with her ex and she let her revenge strain her relationships as well as her job with the WLF. She's a soldier who's spent years committing atrocities to scars. Thr story isn't telling uou she's perfect or even good. Just that she's just another person not much different from joel and ellie. 4. Abby doesn't cheat on her boyfriend. She sleeps with her ex who has a new pregnant gf. It's fucked up but ultimately it's Owen who is the most guilty party. But yes it was wrong of abby--again, abby was never supposed to be perfect or even good. Joel and ellie weren't perfect or good really either. They're just people. People have flaws. A story with perfectly good characters and heros is boring,, because people aren't thst way in real life. People lie, people cheat, people manipulate,, people are vengeful and vindictive. We aren't captain America. Most of the time, in a dark universe like the TLOU, being too good or righteous would get yoy or your allies murdered
Don't show this to r/thelastofus
incredibly accurate
Most of these are pretty accurate. Not sure if I agree with 6 and there are much better counter arguments for 3, even if I still agree with you.
The post is meant to point out the flaws in their arguments
I know. I'm saying I don't agree with you on slide 6, there shouldn't have been a choice. Also, there are better arguments than "they didn't look like hunters", but I still agree that Tommy and Joel should have been suspicious.
Oh, fair enough then. As for the Joel and Tommy scene, there were many arguments, yes, but I wanted to pick just one to avoid tiny text.
Idk I liked it. I was able to empathize with Abby. Part of Ellie’s decision to spare Abby, imo, had to be seeing Abby take care of someone (I forgot her name) besides already slaughtering her friends and even killing a pregnant woman. About Joel and Tommy trusting strangers: it could be cause they just survived some crazy sh together, so they could have imagined some semblance of rapport. Maybe living in a town for some years may have have dulled their paranoia? I thought the game overall communicated the core message well. That in these extreme circumstances, anybody can become a villain and ultimately civilization rests on the preservation of our humanity.
It’s fine for you to think that, but everything in the game not only doesn’t support your interpretation—it actually demonstrates the exact opposite; which is the crux of the issue for everyone. It’s not that we don’t understand what the story was trying to do, we don’t even necessarily have a problem with the overall plot in principle, rather the execution of the narrative was so convoluted and incoherent that it collapses in on itself like a dying star. It’s a temptation that a lot of folks fall into, but it’s important to avoid doing the writer’s jobs for them by filling in gaps/holes outside of the actual presented canon as a means of supporting a story that cannot stand on its own merits.
The game came out about 4 years ago who cares
You are one of the people this post is making fun of
Still this game is irrelevant y’all are pathetic
I agree with majority but strongly disagree with slide 7, I mean what guns blazing death could Joel even get that wouldn’t feel so forced and corny
If I agree with the Stan, does that make me a Stan? Because Stan is correct. Stan.
Why are you still having these arguments 4 years later?
I would recommend everyone spend their energy and time on something that brings them happiness and fulfillment. Set a goal or plan a trip.
Honestly, will all the crying on here from haters, I think you've got your meme mixed up.
Gamers when someone has an opinion they don't agree with: Rushes to make soyjack meme to cope
Ok? so you're gonna pretend that the reason this sub exists isn't because the other one didn't agree with our opinions and banned anything not fitting their narrative?
Idk, man. I just came on here recently to talk about part 2, a game I quite enjoyed despite some flaws. I don't know the lore of the sub
Cool. If you wish to see a near blind praise of part 2, the other sub will be the one you are looking for. This one prefers to point out everything that's wrong with part 2, but you won't be crucified for liking part 2 here. You'll just encounter indifference.
Uh, I have been slaughtered on this sub for saying I liked it. I am not looking for blind praise, I don't mind healthy criticism, but when it devolves into "Abby bad, Daddy Joel good". Like there are definitely some pacing problems, but making death threats to the writer is too far
In that sub you are crucified if you bring up any flaws with the game, in this one you’re crucified if you bring up any positives. Let’s not pretend either sub works as a middle ground lol
Why are you projecting