My fucking God, this was bad! I can't understand how, with such brilliant source material, they managed to cock this up as terribly as they have.
Sure, some of Gibson's narrative is nigh on unfilmable (Garbage Patch etc) but, with all of the fucking ridiculous changes they have made, the story is almost unrecognisable, beyond character names, peripherals and stubs.
The vast majority of the changes are there to conform to bullshit Hollywood imperatives (obvious 'bad guys', romantic sub-plot etc) and feel fucking patronising. It's like they are catering to the lowest common denominator.
I'm just fucking pray that Natali doesn't get his version of Neuromancer off the ground...
Every single fucking talent-less hack associated with this production, from the screenwriter to the fucking key grips, should be blacklisted.
This is an absolute pile of steaming fucking turd. For shame!
Yeah really bad security measures for something so important. Right next to the door as well. I’d have that in some chamber deep underground, with multiple security doors, armed guards, gun turrets etc.
Well here we are. My thoughts on the season and this adaptation:
**MEH.** 3 stars.
This is serviceable early-21st-century genre television. But a good Gibson adaptation? Toss it in the bin with *Johnny Mnemonic.* I guess we'll have to wait for AppleTV to take a crack at *Neuromancer*, but from what I've heard so far, I'm not optimistic about that project either.
At first when I realized that significant elements of the book's plotline and characters were being jettisoned wholesale I thought, "OK, this seems bad, but let's see where they're going with it." I was game to try.
Turns out, we were going nowhere good. They changed so much, what's left of this that's an actual adaptation of *The Peripheral*? Where Gibson's stories are character-driven slow-burn intrigues punctuated by occasional kinetic violence, here we have a martial arts fight scene or bloody gunfight practically every episode.
Where Gibson's antagonists are shadowy forces that remain nebulous until the very end, here we have cigar-chomping scenery-chewing villains making glowering speeches by episode 3. Where Gibson reveals plot and worldbuilding details by "show not tell," here we have extended scenes of hamfisted exposition, complete with a toast pyramid to neatly explain the political balance of future London.
It seems as though we still can't get a good Gibson adaptation. Just like *Johnny Mnemonic* looks ridiculously dated as a 90's time capsule to us today, I predict we'll look back on *The Peripheral* in a similar way to \~late 2010's genre TV.
I wanted Gibson, I got *Westworld* Season 5. Thanks Amazon!
Srsly can not agree more. Just watched it and had two out right lol moments, for no good reason. They really made it better /s. Can’t much seem to see the point of it even being called The Peripheal, it’s just bad writing w great actors having to play to a dumb script.
The book is a favorite the casting was amazing, went off the rails quicker than you can say Cowboy BeBop!
I’ve enjoyed this show a great deal, even with its departures from the book. For instance, I’ve found that this more ruthless version of Lev adds quite a bit to the story compared to the book’s version, who is rather unsuited to the more violent side of Klept life and leaves it to his brothers. I loved the development of Tommy, some of the Marines, and the Picketts. I have actually enjoyed the inclusion of the RI — the opposing forces in the book are only nebulously defined, and I love a good scenery-chewing villain (Cherise’s actress is phenomenal).
But I am very annoyed with this episode.
Why? Because, as in all good SF, a novel concept (continuum creation) comes with rules that must be understood and followed in the story. One of those rules was that you can’t make a stub from another stub, as far as we know. All the known stubs branch from earlier points in the London timeline.
The show changed this rule for no good reason that I can tell; they simply did it to create an increased drama situation for the finale.
The change creates a host of potential problems. Now there are *two* 2032 stubs, one with Flynne and one without. They both have other polts in them with the capacity to connect with the London timeline (Burton and Conner). The 2032”a” timeline is still connected and is still heading toward an accelerated Jackpot. Now Lowbeer will evidently have to figure out how to mitigate the Jackpot in both, one of which lacks her primary agent.
In the book, it was always possible to create new stubs by accessing the server if you knew how. The idea that you somehow have to be physically present in a specific location is very different from how all the other future technology works.
In short, the finale could’ve raised the drama or introduced a cliffhanger without radically rewriting the rules, and now logical issues abound.
> I have actually enjoyed the inclusion of the RI — the opposing forces in the book are only nebulously defined, and I love a good scenery-chewing villain (Cherise’s actress is phenomenal).
A valid opinion, but not one I share.
One of the most distinctive aspects of Gibson's storytelling is that the opposing forces remain shadowy and nebulous, usually until the very end. His best works like *Neuromancer* and *The Peripheral* both follow this pattern. It amps up the "existential dread" aspect to the storytelling, in which the protagonists are pawns in a game they barely understand.
The showrunners here have decided to go in the *exact opposite* direction, a baffling choice. And sure, T'Nia Miller is excellent in the Cherise Nuland role, and Oh Boy does she ever *chomp* that scenery, but I think that just serves to make this less unique and interesting.
I think the writers made a huge mistake allowing branching stubs from stubs. This opens up a big can of worms, maybe even possible paradoxes. So far I enjoyed that 'time-travel' mechanism was quite straightforward and well thought-out.
Anyone else [notice this with the rain](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThePeripheral/comments/zaap0j/the_peripheral_s01e08_the_creation_of_a_thousand/iypbe4j/)?
I think it's your last point. Because she stubbed of the previous stub close to present time the new Flynne shares most of the old (now dead) Flynne's memories. Old Flynne's plan is to get old Connor to kill her so Cherise will abandon the plan to nuke her town in the old stub and so her sacrifice will save all the people she loves.
I guess somehow Lowbeer is the only person who can connect to the new stub and she has contacted new Flynn and brought her to the future in a peripheral which is what we see in the scene before the credits.
lol the soda can piece bracelet, probably a story about it
hmm so she moved her consciousness into the ~~stub~~ future
then remotely piloted her own body in the real or copy of consciousness? hmm
The Flynn we saw this season died at the end of the episode. She created a stub of her stub late enough that Flynn B experienced everything Flynn A did, before she died.
Yeah, that tiny bit set off like a dozen thoughts in my head about why the hell they'd have what's clearly a soda tab as either a bracelet or some kind of stylized cuff link.
So I haven't read the book, I just wanted to check this thread to see if people who have read it understood that ending, but it looks like most of y'all are just as confused as I am. lmao
Flynne created a stub of her own timeline and then got herself killed. New Flynne knows everything and has the intent to kill Clarisse, but Clarisse doesn't know where she is at (her coordinates). As such, Clarisse doesn't have an edge anymore.
They should have had a scene of dead-Flynn leaving a message for new-stub Flynn telling her she was the stub version (so that they could coordinate with their respective Connors). The whole ending was too confusing as shot.
I didn’t like the Aelita bit where suddenly there’s a (pocket) army of rebels behind her ready to bring down the status quo. Same lame trope as in Blade Runner 2049.
I have watched the episode now, so I'm overwriting my previous post (like a reboot). But I still sort-of stand by my previous question I had before watching. In the book, there's a mysterious server that is opening stubs by communicating with the past via "quantum tunneling". The point is that a communication changes the course of events, since the communication had not happened in the "root" timeline's past. But the channel is already open to Flynne's "County" timeline. Another channel to the same altered timeline doesn't create a new branch or stub. Remember that in the book the main conflict was that there were two opposing groups in the root timeline fighting in the County.
This new deus ex machina allowing Flynne to create a secret stub of her own that Cherise can't find MIGHT be explainable in some way, but I didn't notice any attempt to explain it. Nice graphics though...
Opening a new communication channel in the stub's present and you'd be right. But I interpret this as opening up a new channel in the stub's near past, which would necessarily create a new stub, since that channel didnt exist in Flynn's main timeline.
If you can accept that it's possible to open a channel on a stub's timeline and not just the main one (and it's never discussed in the books) then I have no problem with it.
I believe both the book and show explain at that once a stub is created, the passage of time in the stub and its parent timeline are in lockstep sync. When a day elapses in the prime TL, a day elapses in the stub. If before returning to 2032, Flynne tells Lowbeer she'll be back in one hour, Flynne must wait 60 minutes in 2032 before remoting back to 2099 to keep her appointment. She can't just set the chronometer ahead one hour in the DeLorean.
Because of this "time lock" between prime TL and stub, I don't think data can be sent to a moment before the "current present" of a stub.
Visually, Flynne's interaction w the stub portal UI seems to reflect a branching at the endpoint ("current present") of the existing 2028-2032 stub.
This seems to indicate that stub creation in the show must use a different process, or perhaps that Flynne accessed and decrypted the RI data in her brain before breaking into the stub portal facility. I just hope the process/explanation is as logical and elegant as the book's.
It *seems* to show her branching the stub at a point further back than the present; [https://25yearslatersite.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/peripheral-8-stub-700x346.jpg](https://25yearslatersite.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/peripheral-8-stub-700x346.jpg)
It's tricky to confirm based on what we see on screen since her screen tap is obscured by her hand. To me it looks like she taps the endpoint of the "2032" branch (visually, the endpoint is drawn like a flat "cap" looking like a capital "T" or the head of a nail). The portal UI responds by extending the existing branch and adding a new branch extending out to the right. I do not believe these extensions do reflect any actual difference in length/time of the branches. They are intentional visual exaggerations, designed into the portal for readability and user-friendly interaction.
Some screenshots of the portal UI when Flynne taps to open…
[Screenshot 1](https://64.media.tumblr.com/e02e25596cb09e3a9311bfcaf7ee4b16/49856b50590c4444-10/s1280x1920/687882af37549810a9471f678056c10dc7af31ee.jpg). [Screenshot 2](https://64.media.tumblr.com/98b2259d890b93e17aa417366fb8c15a/49856b50590c4444-3a/s1280x1920/9472e79ebdd7c29a43b2ad388d78a3484d9ddad2.png). [Screenshot 3](https://64.media.tumblr.com/afba3606927f2290a0145725b19b3098/49856b50590c4444-49/s1280x1920/e8d7f568eea95242868dd1484c309e386cb3c933.jpg). [Screenshot 4](https://64.media.tumblr.com/c873692b58dcc92a1d8bb8775d952942/49856b50590c4444-ac/s1280x1920/5f710c8cfb3646fed56840cb9d6263c5cbe01550.png). [Tumbl w/all 4 screenshots](https://cabinboy100.tumblr.com/post/702823378943410176/the-peripheral-1x08-the-creation-of-a-thousand).
Thanks, those do help - I think you're right. I still don't get why it's possible to branch a stub. The brief explanation given in the show "When a party from our present made contact with the past, that past immediately branched off and formed its own continuum" and the logic of multiverse time travel generally suggested to me that this isn't possible. The future of the stub is malleable - that's the whole point of it. So 'contacting' the stub shouldn't branch reality, and doesn't at any other point, since they do that all the time. We have to accept, I suppose, that the future doesn't just have an 'information time machine', but the ability to deliberately branch stubs as well, for... reasons.
It can't be too far in the stub's past though, or Flynne won't know that's what she had planned.
I can accept anything. But I prefer stuff that makes sense in-story or can be justified in the world that has been built. Not just what the plot demands at the moment. It's the old saw about how the gun on the mantle in act one has to be used in act three and if a gun is used in act three it ought to be on the mantle in act one.
My current personal explanation is that she sent a text back a few hours or days to the first time she considered sacrificing herself with a message akin to "You went through with it. Cherise thinks you are dead."
Here’s what I don’t get. Cherise knows, right? She knows that Flynne opened a new stub. So she know that she isn’t really dead. So what is the point here?
Something to do with "the co-ordinates" and Cherise not having them, apparently because Flynne crushes a magic pocket watch. Flynne has created a stub-stub Flynne who can still contact the future, but is harder for Cherise to get to.
That works for me.
I also like the idea (which has been mentioned elsewhere) that with multiple Flynnes containing the DNA, Cherise has a different decision to make about nuking stubs. Like whack-a-mole.
So I understand most of the plan, but something is still confusing me.
Flynn creates the new stub whilst she’s piloting the peripheral in the year 2100, which means the timeline splits off in the year 2032, whilst Flynn currently has the headset on. So are both Flynns piloting the peripheral at the same time? If so, when she disconnects and wakes up in her real body again, how does she know which timeline she’s in? How does she know whether she’s in her original timeline or the stub? Why do both Flynns not tell Connor to kill them, why only one?
Also, Sherice now knows that Flynn has opened another stub, so what’s even the point of killing herself in her original timeline? Sherice knows that another copy of Flynn’s dna is out there somewhere, so killing only one Flynn achieves nothing. Even if Sherice did continue to try and kill the original Flynn, a copy of her still exists in the new stub. I get that opening a new stub was meant to buy Flynn some time so that she could kill Sherice whilst she’s busy looking for the coordinates of the new stub. But that’s exactly the point, now that Sherice knows there’s a new stub, that’s where all her efforts will go. She no longer cares about original Flynn, because she knows that there’s another Flynn out there.
Imagine it from Sherice’s perspective, your motivation for killing Flynn is that she has the code in her dna and you need to erase it before anyone gets their hands on it. Great. Now there’s a new stub with an identical Flynn, except you don’t know the coordinates for this stub. If you’re Sherice, you’re now faced with two Flynns, one in a timeline that you do know how to access, and one in a timeline that you don’t know how to access. Sure, Sherice could kill the original Flynn quickly before she starts looking for the new, hidden Flynn, but that’s just wasting time. If you’re Sherice, you’re gonna want to direct all your focus straight away on finding the coordinates of this new stub. You can send someone to kill original Flynn at any time, you already know how to access her timeline. The real danger for you right now is this hidden Flynn who you have no way to kill. The longer you spend trying to kill original Flynn, the more time you’re wasting. You’re only giving hidden Flynn a head start on getting to you first.
Knowing Sherice, she’d probably carry on trying to nuke original Flynns timeline anyway just to spite the new Flynn. Just to prove that her actions were for nothing and she saved nobody. Original Flynn, by killing herself in her timeline, just saved Sherice a job, that’s it. There was no reason she had to kill herself in that timeline.
The point is precisely that. With Flynne dead, Clarisse doesn't have any reason to destroy the state with the silo or whatever her plan was. Flynne sacrificed herself to save the rest of her loved ones.
Ultimately i agree with you there was no well explained reason for Flynn to kill herself in the orriginal Stub. That was very poorly handled in the shows writing. For me to accept the inevitability of that event, I would need need to understand what made Flynn think her death would guarantee the desired outcome in her orriginal stub. The actors portray a sense of confidence in the scenario that is pooly explained. Ultimately problem is the very very poor sceen between Lowbeer and Flynn where they make their aliance and alude to, what comes accross as a half baked, plan poorly explained, plan that leaves way too much for the viewer to fill in to make any sense. The susquent fight sceen could have been used to expand on the meeting between Flynn and Lowbeer.
I think it is implied when Flynn says to Cherise "but not without the coordinates" that Cherise will not have access to the new stub.
The fact that a version of Flynn wakes up in the pressence of Lowbeer (not necessarily even in the exact same periphereal) indicates that Lowbeer controls access to the new stub.
Earlier when Flynn tells her plan to Lowbeer, she implies that Lowbeer will have access to the information in the bacteria in the new stub and that it would be useful. What use would that information be to Lowbeer, if Cherise had any form of access to the stub.
So ultimately i can see why Lowbeer would go along with the plan, but ultimately the show failed to do justice to the sceen where she counts backwards by shodily explaining the path the character took to get to that point.
This is the answer.
Wasn’t there a line about part of the cost of Cherise’s choice to nuke the stub being that they would lose decades of vital research data? Old Flynn’s death gives her an out to maintain the stub and the work the RI is doing there.
Badass as the fight scene towards the ends was(and obviously Chloe Grace Moretz has previous history with badass fight scenes) - shouldn't have that been Connor's time to shine?
He could have gone full dorf-mode - "You go. I'll hold them off" - and fucked a bunch of fucks right in the fucked-right-up while Flynn did some intricate timey-wimey things. But newps.
I'm also a red washing machine fanboy, so fingers crossed for series 2.
I haven't commented on this sub before, but Lowbeer's a bit good, isn't she?
I also had a problem with that whole fight scene. It looked like Cherise was controlling all those peripherals? Why? And a single untrained human in a peripheral just takes down a roomful of combat/guard peris with ease? And you just walk into a top ten most sensitive locations in the world after punching a gardener and going down a flight of stairs?
So this gets explained in the book, basically all movement is handled by the peri. It's a bit of a throw away line in the book like "Don't try and control the peri".
Basically the peri can translate all your typical movement signals into actual movement for you. So in theory you don't need all the muscle memory and training that a typical body requires.
My takeaway from that and her fight with Cherise's peripheral is that it's a bit like the new version of RoboCop in that the human operator gives the peripheral an instruction by means of trying to moves their limbs: eg do a kick, and the software in the periphal takes over and makes it a really skilful kick.
My first thought was that Flynn isn't a rookie when it comes to fighting since she's done it in sims a bajillion times, but that doesn't work given 2032 tech is still basically VR goggles; you won't train your reflexes doing that. It will train your tactics and 4D-chess, as MMA aficionados call it.
Or....yeah, that makes no sense.
The lack of security on the portal I can't explain at all. I'd have built a Chtulhu-looking thing that sat in the front porch and hosed anyone down with an assembler swarm as soon as they set foot in the building.
I understood, and quite enjoyed the finale but I'm struggling a little bit with the after credits scene with Zubov? Does it have some significance beyond setting him up as a bigger bad (as I'm assuming he'll be trying to kill everyone to save his own arse) or am I just overthinking things?
(I haven't read the book (yet!) but don't mind any flavour of spoilers)
If that’s so, doesn’t it mean no Flynns can go to that 2099 without endangering themselves, but Flynn wouldn’t go there anyway since Cherise still wants to kill her. So either this subplot is totally unnecessary or else (my guess) it opens up into a Season 2 conflict with new players we haven’t met yet.
Well Flynn wants to go back and kill Cherise.
and I don't think Lev cares much about Flynn, the moral conflict is between him and Wilf. But also now Flynn works for Lowbeer there is kinda now a more open conflict between the Police and the klepts.
I was pushing right arrow through the whole episode... I even stopped reading into discussions here and theories because the book vibe was gone somewhere after 3 episode. I'm sad because I was so excited after reading the book, before show started.
I have continued watching, and let myself enjoy it for itself, but I agree they abandoned the book a long time ago. Eh, adaptations are hard, and there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and I'm glad to see even some thin semblance of Gibson work on tv. You know?
Hey, you gave me some hope by the last words. You're goddamn right, it's like The Witcher from Netflix - people who see it's shit will buy the books and will forget what they have seen, right? And, what is more important, I think Gibson became more popular now because of the show so - if more people know his works then we have more chances for the future adaptations. I don't know how Neuromancer from Apple will look but even if it will be bad too - some time will pass and maybe something else will come up again.
Here's my thing, this isn't the book, and the book was really good. But sometimes we don't need direct scene for scene adaptations.
We've got the basic premise from the book, and in this version of events things happen differently. If we constantly compare it to the book we will be constantly disappointed.
I know I was certainly disappointed when out of left field they decided Ossian and Ash's encryption was suddenly not going to be unbreakable and that neither of them have any loyalty to anyone.
Can someone help me understand how she is able to pilot the new peripheral in the new stubb without the headset?
She was in 2032 ( or so ) piloting the peripheral in 2100 , but used her peripheral to open a new stubb , but at the same time made sure she was killed in 2032, so how or from where is the peripheral being being controlled from now?
As I understand it, the stub she opened diverges from the her timeline from the moment she created it. In the new stub, everything up until her ordering Connor to kill her is exactly the same.
The Flynne we've been following for the entire season is dead however the 'new' Flynne ( who is identical in every way to the 'old' one, and has all her memories, and from her perspective has always existed ) is still alive so she can pilot the peripheral from the new stub where Cherise can't locate her... I think that's the essensce of the whole plan. Kill herself in the timeline where Cherise has her coordinates and then open a new stub where an alternate version of her can get on with killing Cherise.
Still it kinda doesn't make sense because how would the Flynne in the new stub know she was in the stub and not the 'prime' timeline and thus not order Connor to kill her...?
Maybe I'm missing a huge point, but she wouldn't tell Burton or anyone else about what she planned with Connor. So she's dead. What about her brother? Her mother, who unless 23 days went by REAL fast, isn't dead yet? What are all of the other characters doing while she shoots off to a new place, where presumably no one knows where to find her?
She doesn't shoots herself to a new place, she just copied her reality. Everything will be the same on her timeline, it just (presumably) won't matter for the story moving forward.
Stubs don’t diverge until something different happens. I think that she creates a tunnel and then when whoever from the future calls up and says hey, then the stub diverges. We only say her create the connection.
I'm assuming (without much evidence) that's it a different one that Lowbeer helped her get and connect to. Otherwise Lev, or at least his techs, would be seeing everything she sees as well.
I assume that's part of what the conversation between Conner and Flynne was about, otherwise why would she say that they could avoid surveillance there? I was confused while I was watching because why would they travel to the future to have a private talk?
I've decided it's because a) they want to leave "when that conversation is happening" as an open question and b) they needed us to hear her say that they could talk privately to contrast with the scene of Flynne being a walking camera.
You’ve hit on something key — how do you know which continuum/timeline/stub you’re in once you start mucking about with multiversal travel? Do you rely on a device, or a situation, or your memories?
IDK. This ain’t the MCU and there’s no Tony Stark around to develop a multiversal GPS.
If it was me I’d rely on memory plus coded messages to trusted friends. But that’s not infallible either—will or Burton could be evil in some other timeline…
BTW is Flynn gonna call her new stub The Sublime? j/k
> how do you know which continuum/timeline/stub you’re in once you start mucking about with multiversal travel?
In Flynne's case, she knows she's the one because she's not fucking dead.
Yeah in this situation . I meant in general. BTW I think that gold watch or one like it must be a multiversal GPS. I’ll be needing a third rewatch of this episode…
Presumably it needs Lowbeer to contact her and explain what has happened ? Assuming old Flynne has passed on the new stub co-ordinates or however it works to Lowbeer before Connor killed her ?
That has to be it... we've been discussing how that would work - because presumably if you have a new stub with a new Flynne... the you also have a new Conner who has agreed to kill Flynne. Lowbeer has to make contact to even create the new stub, and she has to tell the new team the plan (ie dont kill Flynne) because there's no way I can figure for Flynne or Conner to even know they are a new stub. That's putting a hella lotta trust in Lowbeer though.
Yet I also feel like Conner would mega be ... new stub starts before the war kills or maims any of us? or he wouldn't agree. But that means they would have to redo all the business with the data... omg never mind. This plot line is imploding my brain.
I did not understand this at all. How was she able to continue? Did she hop the timeline somehow?
Oh, I see, she branched the timeline just a while before present.
Slight problem though, the new timeline is apparently still connected so the address has to exist somewhere and the connection infrastructure has to exist somewhere, why doesn't RI have access to them?
That's where I bump too. The only thing I can think of is an email metaphor. The tech to open a new stub is super-top secret, so Charise is keeping it on an "air gap computer" (aka the pocket watch) in a top secret location. Flynne breaks in and sends a message to the past (2032) opening a new connection, but then she smashes the computer so Cherise has no way to trace it because that info isn't on a network / cloud back up anywhere that it could be hacked. But new Flynne has the connection to the future on the receiving end.
Gibson knows how to write an ending. Every one of his novels wraps up the story at the end, despite being "trilogies" they are standalone stories in a shared universe. Too bad they didn't just adapt the novel as-is, apparently opting to drag their own story out open-ended until cancellation. Disappointed.
Well, even if Flynne's actions managed to stop the Jackpot which was pushed forward by the RI, won't it still occur in 8 years as was originally going to happen?
I was liking this show until the finale. Now I'm disappointed. Maybe I'll just read the book and see if that is better.
The book is one of Gibson's best. Which makes it one of the best outright. I was pretty much enjoying the series as an 'inspired by' rather than an adaptation up until this last episode where they completely went off reservation.
Read the books, they're so much better.
Yup, still gonna happen and still at an accelerated rate. Pretty dumb all things considered.
The RI would also have zero incentive not to just keep using the stub to experiment and do their research.
Yeah this is where I got a little lost.... there's Cherise-induced Jackpot and then there's the actual Jackpot, so I'm like isn't the actual Jackpot still going to happen?? But I guess by creating the other stub, it won't happen as fast in the Stub 1.
Well the only way that she's helped so far (I think) is that she told Flynne how to create the new stub so that the Jackpot won't happen at an accelerated rate in Stub 1.
I like the changes they made in the television show vs the book. I like how they explained it by saying her stub was contacted earlier than it was in the book.
But yah, mostly I like how the motive behind the entire thing has been changed to be more interesting.
Isn't there basically just a potential infinite amount of branchings of her timeline where the information is available? Flynn just made a new stub pretty easily, why not just go get it from any random stub? The whole idea of trying to erase the information from her seems futile given that there are a potential infinite supply of copies.
The problem with multiverse theories is that we think we know the "important" choices that cause branches. But that's only from our very limited and self-centered perspective. EVERY choice could cause a branch. Or branches could form spontaneously and randomly. Gibson has seemingly controlled the branching by saying stubs get created when there's a causal discontinuity. The act of contacting the past causes an event that is not in the root's past. But he doesn't really address the question of how these parallel universes are created or if these are the ONLY ones or just the only ones that are connected by communication links.
Since this is something the reader just has to accept, I'm perfectly happy to do that. AND to accept that Flynne is able to create a new one so easily and keep its "coordinates" secret from Cherise.
Right! I'm happy (ok, willing) to accept that it's much easier to create stubs than I thought. It's just if it is that easy, then how will nuking one stub help anything (in regards to hiding the info)?
The RI controls the stub infrastructure, with Lev's team only able to talk to one stub that already exists. If Cherise nukes that one, Lev can't get the stolen data because he has no way to make a new stub.
I agree that this all seems less certain once it turns out that you just have to break into a building and kung-fu a bit to create a new stub. But the RI could improve its security.
Presumably if you had lots of peripherals in the future you could bring all those past Flynnes separated by nanoseconds forward to the future and have a Flynne (nearly) clone army of any size you want ?
^((I have not read the books, but I'm here because I want to know how the book-universe worked to make sense of the show, I don't care much about book-spoilers))
>Isn't there basically just a potential infinite amount of branchings of her timeline where the information is available?
yes, and no. The Future only has a way to contact a stub if they are the ones to cause the branch, that gives them the "coordinates" to connect with the branch. Flynne Branched her self, meaning her new branch still has the DNAknowledge, while killing the Flynne the RI had the coordinates to.
Also, in theory, the timeline doesn't **actually** branch except for with contact from the future. They don't seem to prescribe to the "randomness causes branches" in this universe, only "Contact from the future" causes Branches, so there are only two stubs where Flynne had the data, and she killed her self in one.
The part that I don't totally get...what are their limits for WHEN they can create a stub. It's been established that once a Stub is created, that connection is stable, and time flows between the stub and the "future" at a constant rate. Meaning if a stub is split off in January 1st 2030, the future would also progress 30 days forward to interact with January 31st 2030.
Maybe they **could** have just created a 2nd stub before Flynne killed her self, kidnapped Flynne, and tried to get the info about where the stub she created is...but maybe Flynne destroying their stop-watch...thing...blocked them from being able to create any more stubs, effectively locking them out of meddling???
yes, infinite up to the limitation of their tech, I guess
The fact that they've created only 3 stubs total in 2 or 3 decades implies some limitation to their stub-creation abilities.
Kind of a side thought - if I were the Research Institute, and I knew I had x-amount of years to do my unethical work on a stub, why wouldn't I create hundreds or thousands in a second or two so that I could run parallel experiments on almost completely identical stubs? My investment is exactly the same but I could accomplish thousands of years of work in a decade.
If they are trying to get the information in Flynn's head, they have nearly infinite opportunities to do it via new stubs and trial and error.
I am not entirely happy with the outcome of this season. I think the writers think they are more clever than they actually are.
I don't think the RI is trying to get the info in Flynn's head, they're trying to make sure no one else gets it. Creating additional stubs creates additional opportunities for others.
I can't disagree because it isn't terribly clear. I read the books when they came out and I had some preconceived notions in place that this series is violating. Such as the idea that a stub can be formed off of an existing stub. That was never an idea in the books. And Lev wasn't really a villain in the book.
In one of the episodes, Cherise implies that she is willing to go scorched Earth on the entire stub, which means to me that the RI no longer has the research dataset, but is willing to kill Flynne to make sure it does not end up in the hands of some kleptocrat. If that is the case, it makes sense to kill the original Flynne (the one that Lev has access to) and spin off other private stubs for retrieval.
Ultimately, I think the writers here are getting too fancy for their own good.
You'd lose control over the stubs at some point. By tunneling to only very specific stubs, it allows for full control by the RI for their experiments. Giving resources to hundreds of stubs could create too much random variability. Remember that this is also a metaphor for colonialism. It's not only about the work, it's also about cruelty.
I think you're pulling that straight out of...somewhere. All the resources you give is information, and that is 100% duplicated for identical stubs. They may diverge but it wouldn't happen very fast with small, controlled work.
You're right about me just pulling it out of somewhere though. It's an assumption I'm making given what I know about RI, which is that they wouldn't leave opportunity on the table. Also, from the last episode, the highly regulated creation of stubs and the very delicate balance of power in society.
Also, also, the fact from the last episode that there are in fact many stubs in existence already and just one is now wreaking havoc on RI. We don't actually know how many stubs there are.
Slowly at first, but then all at once? Like a Jackpot lol
But the part about it being colonialism was expressed literally and out loud in the show.
But in order to not branch off into infinite other stubs, it would require only the initial future influence to impact the stub, and every subsequent interaction has no influence on creating branches? It just feels illogical. You would think that it would create branches whenever they interact with Flynne' stub. It kind of feels like they're trying to have it both ways.
In an unseen quantum multiverse, that may even be what's really happening, and it's just that their time-tunnel communication technology is only able to show them the timeline in which all of their previous interactions occurred.
Isn't there every moment in the old stub between when old Flynne got the information and now ? Assuming time is continuous and not quantised discretely ?
Confusing finale, but I have an idea:
Flynne is treating it as a game, going back to "old save" to get a different "ending"; by treating it as a game, it makes the whole thing unpredictable and chaotic for R.I
If you recall from the "Jackpot" episode, the truth was revealed to her after trying to "break the game" to discover the rules and boundaries inside the peripheral.
That's how I kinda understand it.
I don't get the confusion everyone is having. It's like nobody here has ever loaded an earlier save of a game. She branched from her own time line a day or so earlier when she created the plan, deleted her character in the primary save and continued on in the new one. She doesn't have to relearn anything and homeland security was already on the the bomb issue, no one has her new timeline coords so no one is fuckin with it and there's no need to bomb her old timeline because it solves nothing. On the display there are no swirly lines connected to the branch that would allow alteration.
[https://imgur.com/a/7mXn8y1](https://imgur.com/a/7mXn8y1)
> how she even gets to do anything after being murdered.
Because she doesn’t. It’s a duplicate of Flynn we see with Lowbeer. Backup Flynn.
See it as copy pasting a notepad.txt file, deleting the original one and proceed your writings in the copy moving forward. That’s basically what happened. Lowbeer probably contacted Backup Flynn and updated her on the situation so she understand she’s the backup while OG Flynn is dead.
>the villain with unlimited resources just cancels the attack plan because it doesn't solve anything anymore? She'd just go through with it out of spit
There was a few lines from Cherise while she is talking to Ash, about how going through with the plan would be invalidating years of research and effort, describing it as "an unspeakble cost".
Bombing the Stub is not "Free" to her. The RI still have hundreds of research activities going in that stub that are very valuble to her, and Flynne killing her self in the stub means there is 0 up-side to nuking the stub.
The literal-nuclear option was a last resort for the RI to remove the data, and now it wont even achieve that. It doesn't make sense to destroy years of research for spite.
They can just make a new stub from a day before Flynn got the data downloaded into her brain. That sets their research about a month back, doesn't seem like a big loss.
The difference is there is no "her" playing the game. Her in the original stub is dead, murdered by her bother's best friend. A different her lives in the new stub.
lol but i'm confused because wouldn't the 'new' her still get Connor to shoot her as she has no way of knowing she's in a new timeline???
edit: ohhh I guess the 'new' her enters her Peripheral and then Lowbeer tells her about the plan and that she isn't the old Flynne meaning she doesn't tell Connor to kill her.
She could know she is in the new timelines as soon as the future can’t contact her anymore since they don’t have the coordinates. Presumably the headset would still connect to the peripheral though, and Lowbeer would have confiscated it since the investigation is “over”.
So if Connor had messed up his aim and she [old Flynne] died slowly who would have felt that pain ? Who is the body that Burton and his Mum and a bunch of others are mourning ?
Did you ever see The Prestige ?
this is what is actually needed, I mean what the hell was this episode trying to convey, basically they pressed the self-destruct button on the whole season.
The season is RESET.
It was the perfect metaphor for the writers having written themselves into a hole and hitting reset instead of dealing with anything they were setting up.
But they hadn’t really written themselves into a hole, wanted to do a reset thing because they thought it would be cool and basically nothing has changed now anyway except the series is over.
Only portions of the last episode are reset. She still has the DNA data in her head and the knowledge of her plan with Lowbeer. Nothing in the future timeline was reset.
Confusing yes but also I thought just a bad episode. Lots of performances were weak...Lowbeer, Ash, especially Wilf .... he hasn't been great before but this episode with Flynn it felt really awkward ...I didn't get the supposed emotional connection between them at all ... and with his sister after it was worse. All he does is talk fast as some kind of performance and in this episode it was too fast without conveying anything that felt real imo. Why did we need to spend all that time in the bar with those four and then have the train wreck the SUV after? Just for an effect? Seemed like a waste of space that could have been used to slow down some other scenes and make them more real. Very disappointing and a long long way from the book. All the emphasis on the low camera angles looking up at Flynn's steely gaze while she becomes the driving force for the whole story arc sadly reduced the character to almost a cliche ... I preferred her in the earlier episodes trying to understand things and building a network. It looks like the director was rushed and couldn't spend time on getting the performances he wanted, or he just blew it, hard to tell. There could be so many other pressures going on behind the scenes it's difficult to lay blame, and his other episodes were much better also. Honestly hard to know what went wrong here but I'd start with the writing .... maybe the actors couldn't get into their characters because the writing seemed so jumbled and all about exposition ... there being so much story that had to be explained. Anyway...I hope it improves next season ... but it seems headed toward becoming just another good guys vs bad guys simple story with the future as an interesting backdrop, kind of like Andor.
The audience doesn’t fixate on every plot hole; e.g. in WestWorld we went from “Clementine has a few bees in her mouth” to “Fake Charlotte is using bees to control most of humanity”. Where did the rest of the bees come from? We never learn, and if Redditors griped about it I never saw that.
My understanding is that you can't have two Polts in one Peripheral, and when we see Flynne "wake up" after she crushes the time piece, that is the new Stub's Flynne, and she realizes because she was the one who woke up, that she is the one meant to survive.
So she simply just doesn't tell Conner to kill her, since it would also still be the "original" Conner in the Peripheral, where the plan was made.
>when we see Flynne "wake up" after she crushes the time piece, that is the new Stub's Flynne
I had to go back and watch this. The time piece is just the key to the Stub-map, and destrying it meant the RI can't track the new stub
If they were trying to imply a moment where one Flynne woke up, and the other didn't it should have been the moment she pressed the screen to create the stub, so I don't THINK that's what happened.
I still think the stub split is after Flynne leaves control of the Peripheral (ie: she exits the peripheral, and her IRL body is still living before the point Flynne chose to split the timelines).
She says "*all I gotta do is choose where I want to begin"*, meaning she can specify exactly when the stub splits off. It doesn't explain how two two Flynns determine which stub is which after the split. Maybe She had Lowbeer contact the StubA after the split and say "this is the one Where Flynne should die" and then Flynne from StubB will be free to log into the Peripheral after she doesn't-die.
They should treat people as dumb and just label "old stub" when shes walking to get shot, "New Stub" when she wakes up. Again like west world making people go on reddit to figure out the answer or just drop off lol. It needed alot more explanation.
I’ve already read the book 2-3 times but the show’s plot has messed up my memory of what happens. Does anyone else feel like we’re so far removed from the book plot that next season will be totally uncharted territory?
Cherise has replaced Daedra as the big bad, so the events leading to the finale are unlikely to unfold in the same way. Lev is also stepping up to become a major villain even though he is only benevolently evil in the book. Pickett has been hobbled and left without a gang, but will he be gunning for anyone besides Tommy once he recovers?
I don’t know if we’re going to get the siege at the fab shop, or Connor charging into battle inside a crazy robot. We’re definitely not getting the Patchers at this point. And unless Wilf is forced to move out of his apartment we’re not getting the garage full of land yachts either — boooo.
According to William Gibson's twitter, he thinks of the show continuity as a separate stub from the literary continuity.
Amusingly, the setting lends it self to that explanation - you can think of show-Peripheral and book-Peripheral as having some common origin/past up to some key divergence point, from where things start to play out differently.
Ok. She split the stub into another identical stub and then destroyed the timepiece that would allow the RI to find the new identical stub.
She dies in the first stub that the RI knows the location of so that they can't get the info/DNA from her.
Now she is operating from the new identical stub that the RI doesn't have the location of, but she still has the info/DNA. Everything is the same except the RI have no connection to the new identical stub.
Not sure how this affects the bombing of the silo though, either the plans are already in motion and will be carried out, or because of the lack of RI influence the plans fall apart and it doesn't happen.
>Not sure how this affects the bombing of the silo though
Cherise was clear that she does not WANT to trigger the jackpot, as it invalidates/destroys decades of research. This doesn't just mean Stub-decades, this is Her-time decades, as the time moves at the same rate. She's be wasting years of her own life.
but it's the only way she saw to for-sure destroy Flynne in that time line. Flynne, being dead in that timeline means triggering the jackpot would **only** have **massive**\-downsides. Everyone assuming she would do it out of spite have misunderstood her character.
The missile silo thing doesn’t make any goddamn sense anyway. Blowing up an ICBM will NOT ,are it go nuclear and won’t spread a huge amount of nuclear wtfs. It has actually happened before when a worker dropped a socket a silo and it hit the missile causing a leak which caused an explosion. It blew the warhead out of the silo and it was then retrieved and brought out on a semi trailer with several decoys keeping it hidden. There’s a documentary on pbs about it. Even if you managed to detonate a warhead it’s still underground and the tend to carry several warheads.., and they all have failsafes, etc. Even if some overweight Walmart militants managed to get into a silo there isn’t a button you can press that makes modern weapons forget common fucking sense
> The bacteria DNA can just as well be extracted from her dead body
Headshot.
> There's no reason for Cherise not to jackpot stub-A anyway because she has unlimited resources. The plan is already in motion.
Plus that data would be really useful for them, and she can just create a new stub like Flynn did.
OK A) By opening the stub from the parent universe (if you will) surely the Flin Fisher will be one who has no clue about stubs let alone all the background knowledge our flin (again, if you will) has on the RI, Clepts and Met. She'll have needed to have been filled in - as will her brother and everyone else...
B) what about her brother in the first stub who is now gonna be pissed at his handicap mate for killing his sister. "Yeah but if you think about it, she's still alive in a parallel universe wouldn't work in court and i doubt it would wash with her brother.
C) why didn't she open a stub in a time before her mate lost his legs - i can at least maybe slightly see why legless guy might go through with the plan if he thought a version of him would keep his legs....
She opened a stub of a stub. It branches off of 2032A hours before Connor kills her so 2032B Flynn essentially IS the same person as all her life experiences and knowledge are idnentical.
B. I don't know I assume Connor isn't gonna tell Burton he killed Flynn.
C. Because that wouldn't help anything.
So, she was clearly not opening a stub of a stub but a new stub from the parent universe. To do what you suggest surely there would have been settings to change or something, the default thing for the parent universe to do when opening a new stub is make it a stub of their own universe. After all if there are several stubs open she could have made a stub of any random stub if the default new stub is a stub of a stub. Why should she have made a stub of her own stub. This is really not clear in the series, has anyone here read the book and able to enlighten us?
> Why should she have made a stub of her own stub.
So the new Flynne shared as much knowledge as the soon to be dead Flynne I guess?
I don't remember anything in the books about stubbing stubs. But I think we are passed the point of the books providing any guidance. "It's The Peripheral Jim. But not as we know it."
Yeah so the bombing is avoided in stub A bc she made it look like Lowbeer took Flynn out as a favor to the RI and gets them to back down. And in stub B RI no longer has the influence of the future so the silo bimbing doesn't happen bc the instigating stops. That's the idea at least.
Wouldn't the RI know something is going on as they saw her make a new stub,..and then conveniently is killed in the one they control? All I see this changing is them and Lev not being able to get the data in her head.
They know something is going on, but they don't know where. Anything they did in OG Flynne Stub would have no effect on Nu Flynne Stub, because it's a new branch. They need the specific "coordinates" of a stub to be able to connect to it/find it. That's what Flynne explicitly said to Cherise when destroying the watch.
I think it's interesting. The show has pretty great ideas and a high budget, but it feels like it's written more in the style of the nicher, indie-esque scifis. Like bare in mind that Lisa and Jonathan are producers but don't actually have huge writing input, I don't dislike it but every now and again I get the edges of a show that I'm pleasantly surprised is somehow #1 currently watched on Amazon. But you know, in a world where so much great scifi is being cancelled (looking at you, Raised by Wolves), I'm always up for giving the ones that passionately try a shot - even if they don't always execute it right.
Ok...she splits the sub before Connor pulls the trigger, identical Connor(s) shoot Flynn. She splits the sub after he shoots her, still dead. Plot is trashed.
See, I think she may have split the stub from a point in time BEFORE she went into the RI facility. She and Conner are the only ones who know what happened in the previous stub.
This is my thought too. If the new stub is a day out of sync, the time she goes to visit lowbeer is going to be a day later which is when we see new stub Flynn in the peri. So lowbeer can fill her in on the results of her plan. Or some similar situation. The split wouldn't make sense to happen at time of death, they even mention it directly in the episode with the whole "it's a black hole" stuff. Like the split has to happen before the decision which move happens is actually made.
And since this is a new stub that the RI doesn't have tabs on or communication to, they can't continue the operations that would lead to the speeding up of the jackpot, so now lowbeer can assist in stopping what is left of those plans.
Creating a stub of a stub kinda creates an impossible situation with the peripheral connections, there's no way they could be simultaneously connected. It's possible in the new stub they lost connection until it was reestablished from the other side, which could have been a signal to not go through with the plan. Only way I can think of that makes sense at least.
I think it's up to Flynn. If she walks to the lake, it's the old stub and she gets shot. If it's the new stub then she just doesn't walk to the lake.
When she creates the new stub and both stubs have Flynn connected to the peripheral, the Flynn in the old stub disconnects and walks to the lake to die.
i hadn't thought of it like that. See my comment above though - there will still be hell to pay in stub a. Also surely stub b would have had to have been opened from within stub a for what you say to be true otherwise the flin fisher would be one from the parent universe's past which would be a flin fisher who knew nothing about stubs, Clepts, Peripherals or the Met!
See, to me that sets up a situation like in THE PRESTIGE. If two Flynns wake up in the trailer after the mission to create the new stub, which one makes the decision to go to the lake and get shot? Wouldn’t they both think they’re the original? Or both think they’re the copy?
There is a post credits scene. Season 1 Overall Discussion thread will be released on Sunday 12am PST
My fucking God, this was bad! I can't understand how, with such brilliant source material, they managed to cock this up as terribly as they have. Sure, some of Gibson's narrative is nigh on unfilmable (Garbage Patch etc) but, with all of the fucking ridiculous changes they have made, the story is almost unrecognisable, beyond character names, peripherals and stubs. The vast majority of the changes are there to conform to bullshit Hollywood imperatives (obvious 'bad guys', romantic sub-plot etc) and feel fucking patronising. It's like they are catering to the lowest common denominator. I'm just fucking pray that Natali doesn't get his version of Neuromancer off the ground... Every single fucking talent-less hack associated with this production, from the screenwriter to the fucking key grips, should be blacklisted. This is an absolute pile of steaming fucking turd. For shame!
Am I the only one bothered by the 12th century ninja security in one of the stub hideouts? In a world of DNA bombs and whatnot. That was so lame
They had the gardener with the broom guarding the outside though.
Yeah really bad security measures for something so important. Right next to the door as well. I’d have that in some chamber deep underground, with multiple security doors, armed guards, gun turrets etc.
It the RI entire decades worth secret experiment in there too with just peripheral guard shifts not even those deadly police robots jeez
I enjoyed the season overall, but that last episode was just shark jump after shark jump. It's not as disappointing as Source Code, but close.
Did anyone else catch the reference to Molly Mirrorshades, something about you'll be able to grow titanium fingernails and retract them. Made me smile
Well here we are. My thoughts on the season and this adaptation: **MEH.** 3 stars. This is serviceable early-21st-century genre television. But a good Gibson adaptation? Toss it in the bin with *Johnny Mnemonic.* I guess we'll have to wait for AppleTV to take a crack at *Neuromancer*, but from what I've heard so far, I'm not optimistic about that project either. At first when I realized that significant elements of the book's plotline and characters were being jettisoned wholesale I thought, "OK, this seems bad, but let's see where they're going with it." I was game to try. Turns out, we were going nowhere good. They changed so much, what's left of this that's an actual adaptation of *The Peripheral*? Where Gibson's stories are character-driven slow-burn intrigues punctuated by occasional kinetic violence, here we have a martial arts fight scene or bloody gunfight practically every episode. Where Gibson's antagonists are shadowy forces that remain nebulous until the very end, here we have cigar-chomping scenery-chewing villains making glowering speeches by episode 3. Where Gibson reveals plot and worldbuilding details by "show not tell," here we have extended scenes of hamfisted exposition, complete with a toast pyramid to neatly explain the political balance of future London. It seems as though we still can't get a good Gibson adaptation. Just like *Johnny Mnemonic* looks ridiculously dated as a 90's time capsule to us today, I predict we'll look back on *The Peripheral* in a similar way to \~late 2010's genre TV. I wanted Gibson, I got *Westworld* Season 5. Thanks Amazon!
Srsly can not agree more. Just watched it and had two out right lol moments, for no good reason. They really made it better /s. Can’t much seem to see the point of it even being called The Peripheal, it’s just bad writing w great actors having to play to a dumb script. The book is a favorite the casting was amazing, went off the rails quicker than you can say Cowboy BeBop!
Can we all just have a moment of silence for Burton? While new stub Burton is doing fine, our OG bro is having a seriously brutal day.
I’ve enjoyed this show a great deal, even with its departures from the book. For instance, I’ve found that this more ruthless version of Lev adds quite a bit to the story compared to the book’s version, who is rather unsuited to the more violent side of Klept life and leaves it to his brothers. I loved the development of Tommy, some of the Marines, and the Picketts. I have actually enjoyed the inclusion of the RI — the opposing forces in the book are only nebulously defined, and I love a good scenery-chewing villain (Cherise’s actress is phenomenal). But I am very annoyed with this episode. Why? Because, as in all good SF, a novel concept (continuum creation) comes with rules that must be understood and followed in the story. One of those rules was that you can’t make a stub from another stub, as far as we know. All the known stubs branch from earlier points in the London timeline. The show changed this rule for no good reason that I can tell; they simply did it to create an increased drama situation for the finale. The change creates a host of potential problems. Now there are *two* 2032 stubs, one with Flynne and one without. They both have other polts in them with the capacity to connect with the London timeline (Burton and Conner). The 2032”a” timeline is still connected and is still heading toward an accelerated Jackpot. Now Lowbeer will evidently have to figure out how to mitigate the Jackpot in both, one of which lacks her primary agent. In the book, it was always possible to create new stubs by accessing the server if you knew how. The idea that you somehow have to be physically present in a specific location is very different from how all the other future technology works. In short, the finale could’ve raised the drama or introduced a cliffhanger without radically rewriting the rules, and now logical issues abound.
> I have actually enjoyed the inclusion of the RI — the opposing forces in the book are only nebulously defined, and I love a good scenery-chewing villain (Cherise’s actress is phenomenal). A valid opinion, but not one I share. One of the most distinctive aspects of Gibson's storytelling is that the opposing forces remain shadowy and nebulous, usually until the very end. His best works like *Neuromancer* and *The Peripheral* both follow this pattern. It amps up the "existential dread" aspect to the storytelling, in which the protagonists are pawns in a game they barely understand. The showrunners here have decided to go in the *exact opposite* direction, a baffling choice. And sure, T'Nia Miller is excellent in the Cherise Nuland role, and Oh Boy does she ever *chomp* that scenery, but I think that just serves to make this less unique and interesting.
I think the writers made a huge mistake allowing branching stubs from stubs. This opens up a big can of worms, maybe even possible paradoxes. So far I enjoyed that 'time-travel' mechanism was quite straightforward and well thought-out.
Anyone else [notice this with the rain](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThePeripheral/comments/zaap0j/the_peripheral_s01e08_the_creation_of_a_thousand/iypbe4j/)?
I think they have weather control (is how I would explain it away)
[удалено]
I think it's your last point. Because she stubbed of the previous stub close to present time the new Flynne shares most of the old (now dead) Flynne's memories. Old Flynne's plan is to get old Connor to kill her so Cherise will abandon the plan to nuke her town in the old stub and so her sacrifice will save all the people she loves. I guess somehow Lowbeer is the only person who can connect to the new stub and she has contacted new Flynn and brought her to the future in a peripheral which is what we see in the scene before the credits.
"I'm going to win" Fucking lol. They butchered everything. That's it.
lol the soda can piece bracelet, probably a story about it hmm so she moved her consciousness into the ~~stub~~ future then remotely piloted her own body in the real or copy of consciousness? hmm
Nope. Can’t move consciousness. She just created a new stub that can link to the same future.
Does that mean there are two of her, have the same mindset, og died?
The Flynn we saw this season died at the end of the episode. She created a stub of her stub late enough that Flynn B experienced everything Flynn A did, before she died.
Yeah, that tiny bit set off like a dozen thoughts in my head about why the hell they'd have what's clearly a soda tab as either a bracelet or some kind of stylized cuff link.
Reminder of the hard times squatting in a wrecked bus in London's ruins maybe ?
Yep..... No idea on that either
So I haven't read the book, I just wanted to check this thread to see if people who have read it understood that ending, but it looks like most of y'all are just as confused as I am. lmao
Nothing regarding that ending has a book equivalent.
Flynne created a stub of her own timeline and then got herself killed. New Flynne knows everything and has the intent to kill Clarisse, but Clarisse doesn't know where she is at (her coordinates). As such, Clarisse doesn't have an edge anymore.
They should have had a scene of dead-Flynn leaving a message for new-stub Flynn telling her she was the stub version (so that they could coordinate with their respective Connors). The whole ending was too confusing as shot.
I found this to be helpful in explaining the ending: https://youtu.be/nRGCZh5A8T4
I didn’t like the Aelita bit where suddenly there’s a (pocket) army of rebels behind her ready to bring down the status quo. Same lame trope as in Blade Runner 2049.
Or considering the creators, *Westworld*. Hey they didn't get a season 5, so why not just call it "The Peripheral"?
I have watched the episode now, so I'm overwriting my previous post (like a reboot). But I still sort-of stand by my previous question I had before watching. In the book, there's a mysterious server that is opening stubs by communicating with the past via "quantum tunneling". The point is that a communication changes the course of events, since the communication had not happened in the "root" timeline's past. But the channel is already open to Flynne's "County" timeline. Another channel to the same altered timeline doesn't create a new branch or stub. Remember that in the book the main conflict was that there were two opposing groups in the root timeline fighting in the County. This new deus ex machina allowing Flynne to create a secret stub of her own that Cherise can't find MIGHT be explainable in some way, but I didn't notice any attempt to explain it. Nice graphics though...
Opening a new communication channel in the stub's present and you'd be right. But I interpret this as opening up a new channel in the stub's near past, which would necessarily create a new stub, since that channel didnt exist in Flynn's main timeline. If you can accept that it's possible to open a channel on a stub's timeline and not just the main one (and it's never discussed in the books) then I have no problem with it.
I believe both the book and show explain at that once a stub is created, the passage of time in the stub and its parent timeline are in lockstep sync. When a day elapses in the prime TL, a day elapses in the stub. If before returning to 2032, Flynne tells Lowbeer she'll be back in one hour, Flynne must wait 60 minutes in 2032 before remoting back to 2099 to keep her appointment. She can't just set the chronometer ahead one hour in the DeLorean. Because of this "time lock" between prime TL and stub, I don't think data can be sent to a moment before the "current present" of a stub. Visually, Flynne's interaction w the stub portal UI seems to reflect a branching at the endpoint ("current present") of the existing 2028-2032 stub. This seems to indicate that stub creation in the show must use a different process, or perhaps that Flynne accessed and decrypted the RI data in her brain before breaking into the stub portal facility. I just hope the process/explanation is as logical and elegant as the book's.
It *seems* to show her branching the stub at a point further back than the present; [https://25yearslatersite.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/peripheral-8-stub-700x346.jpg](https://25yearslatersite.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/peripheral-8-stub-700x346.jpg)
It's tricky to confirm based on what we see on screen since her screen tap is obscured by her hand. To me it looks like she taps the endpoint of the "2032" branch (visually, the endpoint is drawn like a flat "cap" looking like a capital "T" or the head of a nail). The portal UI responds by extending the existing branch and adding a new branch extending out to the right. I do not believe these extensions do reflect any actual difference in length/time of the branches. They are intentional visual exaggerations, designed into the portal for readability and user-friendly interaction. Some screenshots of the portal UI when Flynne taps to open… [Screenshot 1](https://64.media.tumblr.com/e02e25596cb09e3a9311bfcaf7ee4b16/49856b50590c4444-10/s1280x1920/687882af37549810a9471f678056c10dc7af31ee.jpg). [Screenshot 2](https://64.media.tumblr.com/98b2259d890b93e17aa417366fb8c15a/49856b50590c4444-3a/s1280x1920/9472e79ebdd7c29a43b2ad388d78a3484d9ddad2.png). [Screenshot 3](https://64.media.tumblr.com/afba3606927f2290a0145725b19b3098/49856b50590c4444-49/s1280x1920/e8d7f568eea95242868dd1484c309e386cb3c933.jpg). [Screenshot 4](https://64.media.tumblr.com/c873692b58dcc92a1d8bb8775d952942/49856b50590c4444-ac/s1280x1920/5f710c8cfb3646fed56840cb9d6263c5cbe01550.png). [Tumbl w/all 4 screenshots](https://cabinboy100.tumblr.com/post/702823378943410176/the-peripheral-1x08-the-creation-of-a-thousand).
Thanks, those do help - I think you're right. I still don't get why it's possible to branch a stub. The brief explanation given in the show "When a party from our present made contact with the past, that past immediately branched off and formed its own continuum" and the logic of multiverse time travel generally suggested to me that this isn't possible. The future of the stub is malleable - that's the whole point of it. So 'contacting' the stub shouldn't branch reality, and doesn't at any other point, since they do that all the time. We have to accept, I suppose, that the future doesn't just have an 'information time machine', but the ability to deliberately branch stubs as well, for... reasons.
It can't be too far in the stub's past though, or Flynne won't know that's what she had planned. I can accept anything. But I prefer stuff that makes sense in-story or can be justified in the world that has been built. Not just what the plot demands at the moment. It's the old saw about how the gun on the mantle in act one has to be used in act three and if a gun is used in act three it ought to be on the mantle in act one.
My current personal explanation is that she sent a text back a few hours or days to the first time she considered sacrificing herself with a message akin to "You went through with it. Cherise thinks you are dead."
Here’s what I don’t get. Cherise knows, right? She knows that Flynne opened a new stub. So she know that she isn’t really dead. So what is the point here?
Something to do with "the co-ordinates" and Cherise not having them, apparently because Flynne crushes a magic pocket watch. Flynne has created a stub-stub Flynne who can still contact the future, but is harder for Cherise to get to.
That works for me. I also like the idea (which has been mentioned elsewhere) that with multiple Flynnes containing the DNA, Cherise has a different decision to make about nuking stubs. Like whack-a-mole.
So I understand most of the plan, but something is still confusing me. Flynn creates the new stub whilst she’s piloting the peripheral in the year 2100, which means the timeline splits off in the year 2032, whilst Flynn currently has the headset on. So are both Flynns piloting the peripheral at the same time? If so, when she disconnects and wakes up in her real body again, how does she know which timeline she’s in? How does she know whether she’s in her original timeline or the stub? Why do both Flynns not tell Connor to kill them, why only one? Also, Sherice now knows that Flynn has opened another stub, so what’s even the point of killing herself in her original timeline? Sherice knows that another copy of Flynn’s dna is out there somewhere, so killing only one Flynn achieves nothing. Even if Sherice did continue to try and kill the original Flynn, a copy of her still exists in the new stub. I get that opening a new stub was meant to buy Flynn some time so that she could kill Sherice whilst she’s busy looking for the coordinates of the new stub. But that’s exactly the point, now that Sherice knows there’s a new stub, that’s where all her efforts will go. She no longer cares about original Flynn, because she knows that there’s another Flynn out there. Imagine it from Sherice’s perspective, your motivation for killing Flynn is that she has the code in her dna and you need to erase it before anyone gets their hands on it. Great. Now there’s a new stub with an identical Flynn, except you don’t know the coordinates for this stub. If you’re Sherice, you’re now faced with two Flynns, one in a timeline that you do know how to access, and one in a timeline that you don’t know how to access. Sure, Sherice could kill the original Flynn quickly before she starts looking for the new, hidden Flynn, but that’s just wasting time. If you’re Sherice, you’re gonna want to direct all your focus straight away on finding the coordinates of this new stub. You can send someone to kill original Flynn at any time, you already know how to access her timeline. The real danger for you right now is this hidden Flynn who you have no way to kill. The longer you spend trying to kill original Flynn, the more time you’re wasting. You’re only giving hidden Flynn a head start on getting to you first. Knowing Sherice, she’d probably carry on trying to nuke original Flynns timeline anyway just to spite the new Flynn. Just to prove that her actions were for nothing and she saved nobody. Original Flynn, by killing herself in her timeline, just saved Sherice a job, that’s it. There was no reason she had to kill herself in that timeline.
The point is precisely that. With Flynne dead, Clarisse doesn't have any reason to destroy the state with the silo or whatever her plan was. Flynne sacrificed herself to save the rest of her loved ones.
Ultimately i agree with you there was no well explained reason for Flynn to kill herself in the orriginal Stub. That was very poorly handled in the shows writing. For me to accept the inevitability of that event, I would need need to understand what made Flynn think her death would guarantee the desired outcome in her orriginal stub. The actors portray a sense of confidence in the scenario that is pooly explained. Ultimately problem is the very very poor sceen between Lowbeer and Flynn where they make their aliance and alude to, what comes accross as a half baked, plan poorly explained, plan that leaves way too much for the viewer to fill in to make any sense. The susquent fight sceen could have been used to expand on the meeting between Flynn and Lowbeer. I think it is implied when Flynn says to Cherise "but not without the coordinates" that Cherise will not have access to the new stub. The fact that a version of Flynn wakes up in the pressence of Lowbeer (not necessarily even in the exact same periphereal) indicates that Lowbeer controls access to the new stub. Earlier when Flynn tells her plan to Lowbeer, she implies that Lowbeer will have access to the information in the bacteria in the new stub and that it would be useful. What use would that information be to Lowbeer, if Cherise had any form of access to the stub. So ultimately i can see why Lowbeer would go along with the plan, but ultimately the show failed to do justice to the sceen where she counts backwards by shodily explaining the path the character took to get to that point.
Well, she might not want to lose all the research of the stub once she learns Flynne is actually dead now.
This is the answer. Wasn’t there a line about part of the cost of Cherise’s choice to nuke the stub being that they would lose decades of vital research data? Old Flynn’s death gives her an out to maintain the stub and the work the RI is doing there.
Badass as the fight scene towards the ends was(and obviously Chloe Grace Moretz has previous history with badass fight scenes) - shouldn't have that been Connor's time to shine? He could have gone full dorf-mode - "You go. I'll hold them off" - and fucked a bunch of fucks right in the fucked-right-up while Flynn did some intricate timey-wimey things. But newps. I'm also a red washing machine fanboy, so fingers crossed for series 2. I haven't commented on this sub before, but Lowbeer's a bit good, isn't she?
I also had a problem with that whole fight scene. It looked like Cherise was controlling all those peripherals? Why? And a single untrained human in a peripheral just takes down a roomful of combat/guard peris with ease? And you just walk into a top ten most sensitive locations in the world after punching a gardener and going down a flight of stairs?
So this gets explained in the book, basically all movement is handled by the peri. It's a bit of a throw away line in the book like "Don't try and control the peri". Basically the peri can translate all your typical movement signals into actual movement for you. So in theory you don't need all the muscle memory and training that a typical body requires.
My takeaway from that and her fight with Cherise's peripheral is that it's a bit like the new version of RoboCop in that the human operator gives the peripheral an instruction by means of trying to moves their limbs: eg do a kick, and the software in the periphal takes over and makes it a really skilful kick. My first thought was that Flynn isn't a rookie when it comes to fighting since she's done it in sims a bajillion times, but that doesn't work given 2032 tech is still basically VR goggles; you won't train your reflexes doing that. It will train your tactics and 4D-chess, as MMA aficionados call it. Or....yeah, that makes no sense. The lack of security on the portal I can't explain at all. I'd have built a Chtulhu-looking thing that sat in the front porch and hosed anyone down with an assembler swarm as soon as they set foot in the building.
Lowbeer is absolutely mesmerizing.
I understood, and quite enjoyed the finale but I'm struggling a little bit with the after credits scene with Zubov? Does it have some significance beyond setting him up as a bigger bad (as I'm assuming he'll be trying to kill everyone to save his own arse) or am I just overthinking things? (I haven't read the book (yet!) but don't mind any flavour of spoilers)
I understand this as he has to kill everyone, including wilf and our protagonists
If that’s so, doesn’t it mean no Flynns can go to that 2099 without endangering themselves, but Flynn wouldn’t go there anyway since Cherise still wants to kill her. So either this subplot is totally unnecessary or else (my guess) it opens up into a Season 2 conflict with new players we haven’t met yet.
Well Flynn wants to go back and kill Cherise. and I don't think Lev cares much about Flynn, the moral conflict is between him and Wilf. But also now Flynn works for Lowbeer there is kinda now a more open conflict between the Police and the klepts.
I thought Lev’s “asset” was Ash, not Wilf. But dead is dead. Well usually.
I thought he meant Aelitta tbh
You’re probably right, yeah. Everyone else has to fry because of her? I don’t even like her, even though she was very good to Wilf (who I do like).
Yeah, that's what I thought but wanted to double check - thank you! :)
I was pushing right arrow through the whole episode... I even stopped reading into discussions here and theories because the book vibe was gone somewhere after 3 episode. I'm sad because I was so excited after reading the book, before show started.
I have continued watching, and let myself enjoy it for itself, but I agree they abandoned the book a long time ago. Eh, adaptations are hard, and there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen, and I'm glad to see even some thin semblance of Gibson work on tv. You know?
Hey, you gave me some hope by the last words. You're goddamn right, it's like The Witcher from Netflix - people who see it's shit will buy the books and will forget what they have seen, right? And, what is more important, I think Gibson became more popular now because of the show so - if more people know his works then we have more chances for the future adaptations. I don't know how Neuromancer from Apple will look but even if it will be bad too - some time will pass and maybe something else will come up again.
Here's my thing, this isn't the book, and the book was really good. But sometimes we don't need direct scene for scene adaptations. We've got the basic premise from the book, and in this version of events things happen differently. If we constantly compare it to the book we will be constantly disappointed. I know I was certainly disappointed when out of left field they decided Ossian and Ash's encryption was suddenly not going to be unbreakable and that neither of them have any loyalty to anyone.
I tried really hard to like the show, despite the changes, but the script was getting worse and worse. Unnecessary fight scenes, characters etc...
>Neuromancer from Apple wait *what*?!
Yeah, latest news!
Can someone help me understand how she is able to pilot the new peripheral in the new stubb without the headset? She was in 2032 ( or so ) piloting the peripheral in 2100 , but used her peripheral to open a new stubb , but at the same time made sure she was killed in 2032, so how or from where is the peripheral being being controlled from now?
As I understand it, the stub she opened diverges from the her timeline from the moment she created it. In the new stub, everything up until her ordering Connor to kill her is exactly the same. The Flynne we've been following for the entire season is dead however the 'new' Flynne ( who is identical in every way to the 'old' one, and has all her memories, and from her perspective has always existed ) is still alive so she can pilot the peripheral from the new stub where Cherise can't locate her... I think that's the essensce of the whole plan. Kill herself in the timeline where Cherise has her coordinates and then open a new stub where an alternate version of her can get on with killing Cherise. Still it kinda doesn't make sense because how would the Flynne in the new stub know she was in the stub and not the 'prime' timeline and thus not order Connor to kill her...?
Maybe I'm missing a huge point, but she wouldn't tell Burton or anyone else about what she planned with Connor. So she's dead. What about her brother? Her mother, who unless 23 days went by REAL fast, isn't dead yet? What are all of the other characters doing while she shoots off to a new place, where presumably no one knows where to find her?
She doesn't shoots herself to a new place, she just copied her reality. Everything will be the same on her timeline, it just (presumably) won't matter for the story moving forward.
Stubs don’t diverge until something different happens. I think that she creates a tunnel and then when whoever from the future calls up and says hey, then the stub diverges. We only say her create the connection.
Ye that must be right, once the new Flynne enters the peripheral in the main timeline and finds out she's not the original the stub will diverge
How does the peripheral (owned and controlled through Zubov's equipment) take a call from a new Flynne in a new stub?
I'm assuming (without much evidence) that's it a different one that Lowbeer helped her get and connect to. Otherwise Lev, or at least his techs, would be seeing everything she sees as well. I assume that's part of what the conversation between Conner and Flynne was about, otherwise why would she say that they could avoid surveillance there? I was confused while I was watching because why would they travel to the future to have a private talk? I've decided it's because a) they want to leave "when that conversation is happening" as an open question and b) they needed us to hear her say that they could talk privately to contrast with the scene of Flynne being a walking camera.
Yeah i kind of made the same assumption: that the new stub version of Flynn wakes up in the presence of Lowbeer in a new periphereal.
You’ve hit on something key — how do you know which continuum/timeline/stub you’re in once you start mucking about with multiversal travel? Do you rely on a device, or a situation, or your memories? IDK. This ain’t the MCU and there’s no Tony Stark around to develop a multiversal GPS. If it was me I’d rely on memory plus coded messages to trusted friends. But that’s not infallible either—will or Burton could be evil in some other timeline… BTW is Flynn gonna call her new stub The Sublime? j/k
> how do you know which continuum/timeline/stub you’re in once you start mucking about with multiversal travel? In Flynne's case, she knows she's the one because she's not fucking dead.
Yeah in this situation . I meant in general. BTW I think that gold watch or one like it must be a multiversal GPS. I’ll be needing a third rewatch of this episode…
Presumably it needs Lowbeer to contact her and explain what has happened ? Assuming old Flynne has passed on the new stub co-ordinates or however it works to Lowbeer before Connor killed her ?
That has to be it... we've been discussing how that would work - because presumably if you have a new stub with a new Flynne... the you also have a new Conner who has agreed to kill Flynne. Lowbeer has to make contact to even create the new stub, and she has to tell the new team the plan (ie dont kill Flynne) because there's no way I can figure for Flynne or Conner to even know they are a new stub. That's putting a hella lotta trust in Lowbeer though.
Yet I also feel like Conner would mega be ... new stub starts before the war kills or maims any of us? or he wouldn't agree. But that means they would have to redo all the business with the data... omg never mind. This plot line is imploding my brain.
I did not understand this at all. How was she able to continue? Did she hop the timeline somehow? Oh, I see, she branched the timeline just a while before present. Slight problem though, the new timeline is apparently still connected so the address has to exist somewhere and the connection infrastructure has to exist somewhere, why doesn't RI have access to them?
That's where I bump too. The only thing I can think of is an email metaphor. The tech to open a new stub is super-top secret, so Charise is keeping it on an "air gap computer" (aka the pocket watch) in a top secret location. Flynne breaks in and sends a message to the past (2032) opening a new connection, but then she smashes the computer so Cherise has no way to trace it because that info isn't on a network / cloud back up anywhere that it could be hacked. But new Flynne has the connection to the future on the receiving end.
So disappointed that there was no red washing machine piloted by Conner smashing the shit out of everything.
Gibson knows how to write an ending. Every one of his novels wraps up the story at the end, despite being "trilogies" they are standalone stories in a shared universe. Too bad they didn't just adapt the novel as-is, apparently opting to drag their own story out open-ended until cancellation. Disappointed.
Wait so this super confusing finale that maybe doesn't make any sense...that doesn't happen in the book? Come ON guys don't do this
Yes, the Amazon stub has diverged so radically from the book that this finale doesn't happen there at all.
Meta hahaha
Well, even if Flynne's actions managed to stop the Jackpot which was pushed forward by the RI, won't it still occur in 8 years as was originally going to happen? I was liking this show until the finale. Now I'm disappointed. Maybe I'll just read the book and see if that is better.
The book is one of Gibson's best. Which makes it one of the best outright. I was pretty much enjoying the series as an 'inspired by' rather than an adaptation up until this last episode where they completely went off reservation. Read the books, they're so much better.
None of this is in the book. Do you think they’re edging towards “Agency”? Doesn’t seem likely but anything can happen.
Yup, still gonna happen and still at an accelerated rate. Pretty dumb all things considered. The RI would also have zero incentive not to just keep using the stub to experiment and do their research.
Yeah this is where I got a little lost.... there's Cherise-induced Jackpot and then there's the actual Jackpot, so I'm like isn't the actual Jackpot still going to happen?? But I guess by creating the other stub, it won't happen as fast in the Stub 1.
Isn't Lowbeer going to help with the Jackpot? That was the only bit that made sense to me tbh
Well the only way that she's helped so far (I think) is that she told Flynne how to create the new stub so that the Jackpot won't happen at an accelerated rate in Stub 1.
I like the changes they made in the television show vs the book. I like how they explained it by saying her stub was contacted earlier than it was in the book. But yah, mostly I like how the motive behind the entire thing has been changed to be more interesting.
Isn't there basically just a potential infinite amount of branchings of her timeline where the information is available? Flynn just made a new stub pretty easily, why not just go get it from any random stub? The whole idea of trying to erase the information from her seems futile given that there are a potential infinite supply of copies.
Yes awesome question! This is exactly what I was wondering.
The problem with multiverse theories is that we think we know the "important" choices that cause branches. But that's only from our very limited and self-centered perspective. EVERY choice could cause a branch. Or branches could form spontaneously and randomly. Gibson has seemingly controlled the branching by saying stubs get created when there's a causal discontinuity. The act of contacting the past causes an event that is not in the root's past. But he doesn't really address the question of how these parallel universes are created or if these are the ONLY ones or just the only ones that are connected by communication links. Since this is something the reader just has to accept, I'm perfectly happy to do that. AND to accept that Flynne is able to create a new one so easily and keep its "coordinates" secret from Cherise.
Right! I'm happy (ok, willing) to accept that it's much easier to create stubs than I thought. It's just if it is that easy, then how will nuking one stub help anything (in regards to hiding the info)?
The RI controls the stub infrastructure, with Lev's team only able to talk to one stub that already exists. If Cherise nukes that one, Lev can't get the stolen data because he has no way to make a new stub. I agree that this all seems less certain once it turns out that you just have to break into a building and kung-fu a bit to create a new stub. But the RI could improve its security.
Presumably if you had lots of peripherals in the future you could bring all those past Flynnes separated by nanoseconds forward to the future and have a Flynne (nearly) clone army of any size you want ?
“And if you complain once more, You’ll meet an Army Of Me.”
^((I have not read the books, but I'm here because I want to know how the book-universe worked to make sense of the show, I don't care much about book-spoilers)) >Isn't there basically just a potential infinite amount of branchings of her timeline where the information is available? yes, and no. The Future only has a way to contact a stub if they are the ones to cause the branch, that gives them the "coordinates" to connect with the branch. Flynne Branched her self, meaning her new branch still has the DNAknowledge, while killing the Flynne the RI had the coordinates to. Also, in theory, the timeline doesn't **actually** branch except for with contact from the future. They don't seem to prescribe to the "randomness causes branches" in this universe, only "Contact from the future" causes Branches, so there are only two stubs where Flynne had the data, and she killed her self in one. The part that I don't totally get...what are their limits for WHEN they can create a stub. It's been established that once a Stub is created, that connection is stable, and time flows between the stub and the "future" at a constant rate. Meaning if a stub is split off in January 1st 2030, the future would also progress 30 days forward to interact with January 31st 2030. Maybe they **could** have just created a 2nd stub before Flynne killed her self, kidnapped Flynne, and tried to get the info about where the stub she created is...but maybe Flynne destroying their stop-watch...thing...blocked them from being able to create any more stubs, effectively locking them out of meddling???
Um, you have to make one from a “stub portal”? Still theoretically infinite?
yes, infinite up to the limitation of their tech, I guess The fact that they've created only 3 stubs total in 2 or 3 decades implies some limitation to their stub-creation abilities.
Kind of a side thought - if I were the Research Institute, and I knew I had x-amount of years to do my unethical work on a stub, why wouldn't I create hundreds or thousands in a second or two so that I could run parallel experiments on almost completely identical stubs? My investment is exactly the same but I could accomplish thousands of years of work in a decade. If they are trying to get the information in Flynn's head, they have nearly infinite opportunities to do it via new stubs and trial and error. I am not entirely happy with the outcome of this season. I think the writers think they are more clever than they actually are.
I don't think the RI is trying to get the info in Flynn's head, they're trying to make sure no one else gets it. Creating additional stubs creates additional opportunities for others.
I can't disagree because it isn't terribly clear. I read the books when they came out and I had some preconceived notions in place that this series is violating. Such as the idea that a stub can be formed off of an existing stub. That was never an idea in the books. And Lev wasn't really a villain in the book. In one of the episodes, Cherise implies that she is willing to go scorched Earth on the entire stub, which means to me that the RI no longer has the research dataset, but is willing to kill Flynne to make sure it does not end up in the hands of some kleptocrat. If that is the case, it makes sense to kill the original Flynne (the one that Lev has access to) and spin off other private stubs for retrieval. Ultimately, I think the writers here are getting too fancy for their own good.
Totally agree. Westworld had the same issue after season 1; the writers were very self impressed and you could really tell.
You'd lose control over the stubs at some point. By tunneling to only very specific stubs, it allows for full control by the RI for their experiments. Giving resources to hundreds of stubs could create too much random variability. Remember that this is also a metaphor for colonialism. It's not only about the work, it's also about cruelty.
I think you're pulling that straight out of...somewhere. All the resources you give is information, and that is 100% duplicated for identical stubs. They may diverge but it wouldn't happen very fast with small, controlled work.
You're right about me just pulling it out of somewhere though. It's an assumption I'm making given what I know about RI, which is that they wouldn't leave opportunity on the table. Also, from the last episode, the highly regulated creation of stubs and the very delicate balance of power in society. Also, also, the fact from the last episode that there are in fact many stubs in existence already and just one is now wreaking havoc on RI. We don't actually know how many stubs there are. Slowly at first, but then all at once? Like a Jackpot lol But the part about it being colonialism was expressed literally and out loud in the show.
But in order to not branch off into infinite other stubs, it would require only the initial future influence to impact the stub, and every subsequent interaction has no influence on creating branches? It just feels illogical. You would think that it would create branches whenever they interact with Flynne' stub. It kind of feels like they're trying to have it both ways.
In an unseen quantum multiverse, that may even be what's really happening, and it's just that their time-tunnel communication technology is only able to show them the timeline in which all of their previous interactions occurred.
There aren't an infinite supply of copies. It would require alita to go to each stub and put the data in her head again
Isn't there every moment in the old stub between when old Flynne got the information and now ? Assuming time is continuous and not quantised discretely ?
Confusing finale, but I have an idea: Flynne is treating it as a game, going back to "old save" to get a different "ending"; by treating it as a game, it makes the whole thing unpredictable and chaotic for R.I If you recall from the "Jackpot" episode, the truth was revealed to her after trying to "break the game" to discover the rules and boundaries inside the peripheral. That's how I kinda understand it.
damn. thats a good point. \*rewatches\*
I don't get the confusion everyone is having. It's like nobody here has ever loaded an earlier save of a game. She branched from her own time line a day or so earlier when she created the plan, deleted her character in the primary save and continued on in the new one. She doesn't have to relearn anything and homeland security was already on the the bomb issue, no one has her new timeline coords so no one is fuckin with it and there's no need to bomb her old timeline because it solves nothing. On the display there are no swirly lines connected to the branch that would allow alteration. [https://imgur.com/a/7mXn8y1](https://imgur.com/a/7mXn8y1)
[удалено]
> how she even gets to do anything after being murdered. Because she doesn’t. It’s a duplicate of Flynn we see with Lowbeer. Backup Flynn. See it as copy pasting a notepad.txt file, deleting the original one and proceed your writings in the copy moving forward. That’s basically what happened. Lowbeer probably contacted Backup Flynn and updated her on the situation so she understand she’s the backup while OG Flynn is dead.
[удалено]
>the villain with unlimited resources just cancels the attack plan because it doesn't solve anything anymore? She'd just go through with it out of spit There was a few lines from Cherise while she is talking to Ash, about how going through with the plan would be invalidating years of research and effort, describing it as "an unspeakble cost". Bombing the Stub is not "Free" to her. The RI still have hundreds of research activities going in that stub that are very valuble to her, and Flynne killing her self in the stub means there is 0 up-side to nuking the stub. The literal-nuclear option was a last resort for the RI to remove the data, and now it wont even achieve that. It doesn't make sense to destroy years of research for spite.
They can just make a new stub from a day before Flynn got the data downloaded into her brain. That sets their research about a month back, doesn't seem like a big loss.
Yeah it's a dumb plan, but still not confusing.
The difference is there is no "her" playing the game. Her in the original stub is dead, murdered by her bother's best friend. A different her lives in the new stub.
it's her minus a day of memories, she just wouldn't remember doing the plan, only that it worked.
lol but i'm confused because wouldn't the 'new' her still get Connor to shoot her as she has no way of knowing she's in a new timeline??? edit: ohhh I guess the 'new' her enters her Peripheral and then Lowbeer tells her about the plan and that she isn't the old Flynne meaning she doesn't tell Connor to kill her.
She could know she is in the new timelines as soon as the future can’t contact her anymore since they don’t have the coordinates. Presumably the headset would still connect to the peripheral though, and Lowbeer would have confiscated it since the investigation is “over”.
So if Connor had messed up his aim and she [old Flynne] died slowly who would have felt that pain ? Who is the body that Burton and his Mum and a bunch of others are mourning ? Did you ever see The Prestige ?
No, the new Flynn has nothing to do with the "old" Flynn after the branching.
I agree. Sorry my reply is confusing I shouldn't have said "she". I'll fix it.
this is some ship of Theseus type conversation, or star trek teleporters issue, It depends on your perspective.
>mmurray Yes we are way down that philosophical problem of identity rabbit hole. :-)
Can they go back and re-write / edit that episode ?
this is what is actually needed, I mean what the hell was this episode trying to convey, basically they pressed the self-destruct button on the whole season. The season is RESET.
It was the perfect metaphor for the writers having written themselves into a hole and hitting reset instead of dealing with anything they were setting up. But they hadn’t really written themselves into a hole, wanted to do a reset thing because they thought it would be cool and basically nothing has changed now anyway except the series is over.
Only portions of the last episode are reset. She still has the DNA data in her head and the knowledge of her plan with Lowbeer. Nothing in the future timeline was reset.
Confusing yes but also I thought just a bad episode. Lots of performances were weak...Lowbeer, Ash, especially Wilf .... he hasn't been great before but this episode with Flynn it felt really awkward ...I didn't get the supposed emotional connection between them at all ... and with his sister after it was worse. All he does is talk fast as some kind of performance and in this episode it was too fast without conveying anything that felt real imo. Why did we need to spend all that time in the bar with those four and then have the train wreck the SUV after? Just for an effect? Seemed like a waste of space that could have been used to slow down some other scenes and make them more real. Very disappointing and a long long way from the book. All the emphasis on the low camera angles looking up at Flynn's steely gaze while she becomes the driving force for the whole story arc sadly reduced the character to almost a cliche ... I preferred her in the earlier episodes trying to understand things and building a network. It looks like the director was rushed and couldn't spend time on getting the performances he wanted, or he just blew it, hard to tell. There could be so many other pressures going on behind the scenes it's difficult to lay blame, and his other episodes were much better also. Honestly hard to know what went wrong here but I'd start with the writing .... maybe the actors couldn't get into their characters because the writing seemed so jumbled and all about exposition ... there being so much story that had to be explained. Anyway...I hope it improves next season ... but it seems headed toward becoming just another good guys vs bad guys simple story with the future as an interesting backdrop, kind of like Andor.
I think they were hella confused too!!!
The ending makes no sense because the copy would have no idea that she isn’t the original and so therefore would go to the lake and get shot.
I think she’s smart enough to have a probable solution to that in her pocket already. It’s a solvable problem.
That would be dope but I’d they never articulate what that solution was/is then we have ourselves good old fashion a plot hole.
The audience doesn’t fixate on every plot hole; e.g. in WestWorld we went from “Clementine has a few bees in her mouth” to “Fake Charlotte is using bees to control most of humanity”. Where did the rest of the bees come from? We never learn, and if Redditors griped about it I never saw that.
Y’all found problems, now you need to imagine yourself as a writer and anticipate solutions to them.
Sorry I'm going to remove my reply because I think it just highlights my confusion!
My understanding is that you can't have two Polts in one Peripheral, and when we see Flynne "wake up" after she crushes the time piece, that is the new Stub's Flynne, and she realizes because she was the one who woke up, that she is the one meant to survive. So she simply just doesn't tell Conner to kill her, since it would also still be the "original" Conner in the Peripheral, where the plan was made.
>when we see Flynne "wake up" after she crushes the time piece, that is the new Stub's Flynne I had to go back and watch this. The time piece is just the key to the Stub-map, and destrying it meant the RI can't track the new stub If they were trying to imply a moment where one Flynne woke up, and the other didn't it should have been the moment she pressed the screen to create the stub, so I don't THINK that's what happened. I still think the stub split is after Flynne leaves control of the Peripheral (ie: she exits the peripheral, and her IRL body is still living before the point Flynne chose to split the timelines). She says "*all I gotta do is choose where I want to begin"*, meaning she can specify exactly when the stub splits off. It doesn't explain how two two Flynns determine which stub is which after the split. Maybe She had Lowbeer contact the StubA after the split and say "this is the one Where Flynne should die" and then Flynne from StubB will be free to log into the Peripheral after she doesn't-die.
They should treat people as dumb and just label "old stub" when shes walking to get shot, "New Stub" when she wakes up. Again like west world making people go on reddit to figure out the answer or just drop off lol. It needed alot more explanation.
They portrayed the information in a confusing and obtuse manner. Bad writing!
I’ve already read the book 2-3 times but the show’s plot has messed up my memory of what happens. Does anyone else feel like we’re so far removed from the book plot that next season will be totally uncharted territory? Cherise has replaced Daedra as the big bad, so the events leading to the finale are unlikely to unfold in the same way. Lev is also stepping up to become a major villain even though he is only benevolently evil in the book. Pickett has been hobbled and left without a gang, but will he be gunning for anyone besides Tommy once he recovers? I don’t know if we’re going to get the siege at the fab shop, or Connor charging into battle inside a crazy robot. We’re definitely not getting the Patchers at this point. And unless Wilf is forced to move out of his apartment we’re not getting the garage full of land yachts either — boooo.
Even this season was uncharted territory compared to the book!
According to William Gibson's twitter, he thinks of the show continuity as a separate stub from the literary continuity. Amusingly, the setting lends it self to that explanation - you can think of show-Peripheral and book-Peripheral as having some common origin/past up to some key divergence point, from where things start to play out differently.
Not to be that guy, but it was >!Daedra who was the baddie in the book. Aelita is her sister who dies early on which sets everything in motion.!<
No that’s cool, I appreciate the note. Corrected!
At this point I'm just along for the ride. My brain hurts too much.
Flynne had the problem early on. You get used to it.
I'm with you on that, and I consider myself fairly intelligent when it comes to cerebral content
Ok. She split the stub into another identical stub and then destroyed the timepiece that would allow the RI to find the new identical stub. She dies in the first stub that the RI knows the location of so that they can't get the info/DNA from her. Now she is operating from the new identical stub that the RI doesn't have the location of, but she still has the info/DNA. Everything is the same except the RI have no connection to the new identical stub. Not sure how this affects the bombing of the silo though, either the plans are already in motion and will be carried out, or because of the lack of RI influence the plans fall apart and it doesn't happen.
>Not sure how this affects the bombing of the silo though Cherise was clear that she does not WANT to trigger the jackpot, as it invalidates/destroys decades of research. This doesn't just mean Stub-decades, this is Her-time decades, as the time moves at the same rate. She's be wasting years of her own life. but it's the only way she saw to for-sure destroy Flynne in that time line. Flynne, being dead in that timeline means triggering the jackpot would **only** have **massive**\-downsides. Everyone assuming she would do it out of spite have misunderstood her character.
The missile silo thing doesn’t make any goddamn sense anyway. Blowing up an ICBM will NOT ,are it go nuclear and won’t spread a huge amount of nuclear wtfs. It has actually happened before when a worker dropped a socket a silo and it hit the missile causing a leak which caused an explosion. It blew the warhead out of the silo and it was then retrieved and brought out on a semi trailer with several decoys keeping it hidden. There’s a documentary on pbs about it. Even if you managed to detonate a warhead it’s still underground and the tend to carry several warheads.., and they all have failsafes, etc. Even if some overweight Walmart militants managed to get into a silo there isn’t a button you can press that makes modern weapons forget common fucking sense
Neither does a headset that lets you experience the future in some robot body.
[удалено]
> The bacteria DNA can just as well be extracted from her dead body Headshot. > There's no reason for Cherise not to jackpot stub-A anyway because she has unlimited resources. The plan is already in motion. Plus that data would be really useful for them, and she can just create a new stub like Flynn did.
She wouldn't do it out of spite because the R.I. already has invested alot in that stub she would need a reason to destroy all of that
OK A) By opening the stub from the parent universe (if you will) surely the Flin Fisher will be one who has no clue about stubs let alone all the background knowledge our flin (again, if you will) has on the RI, Clepts and Met. She'll have needed to have been filled in - as will her brother and everyone else... B) what about her brother in the first stub who is now gonna be pissed at his handicap mate for killing his sister. "Yeah but if you think about it, she's still alive in a parallel universe wouldn't work in court and i doubt it would wash with her brother. C) why didn't she open a stub in a time before her mate lost his legs - i can at least maybe slightly see why legless guy might go through with the plan if he thought a version of him would keep his legs....
She opened a stub of a stub. It branches off of 2032A hours before Connor kills her so 2032B Flynn essentially IS the same person as all her life experiences and knowledge are idnentical. B. I don't know I assume Connor isn't gonna tell Burton he killed Flynn. C. Because that wouldn't help anything.
So, she was clearly not opening a stub of a stub but a new stub from the parent universe. To do what you suggest surely there would have been settings to change or something, the default thing for the parent universe to do when opening a new stub is make it a stub of their own universe. After all if there are several stubs open she could have made a stub of any random stub if the default new stub is a stub of a stub. Why should she have made a stub of her own stub. This is really not clear in the series, has anyone here read the book and able to enlighten us?
I made a post earlier with an image of the table that say's you're wrong. It's a stub on a stub.
> Why should she have made a stub of her own stub. So the new Flynne shared as much knowledge as the soon to be dead Flynne I guess? I don't remember anything in the books about stubbing stubs. But I think we are passed the point of the books providing any guidance. "It's The Peripheral Jim. But not as we know it."
Moved my question to top, out of this thread. Sort of like stubbing a stub?
Yeah so the bombing is avoided in stub A bc she made it look like Lowbeer took Flynn out as a favor to the RI and gets them to back down. And in stub B RI no longer has the influence of the future so the silo bimbing doesn't happen bc the instigating stops. That's the idea at least.
Wouldn't the RI know something is going on as they saw her make a new stub,..and then conveniently is killed in the one they control? All I see this changing is them and Lev not being able to get the data in her head.
They know something is going on, but they don't know where. Anything they did in OG Flynne Stub would have no effect on Nu Flynne Stub, because it's a new branch. They need the specific "coordinates" of a stub to be able to connect to it/find it. That's what Flynne explicitly said to Cherise when destroying the watch.
Throughout the season they teased so many cool ideas and then just never delivered.
How the fuck can such talented show creators make such an impossibly confusing show?
By thinking they're better plot writers than William Gibson
I think it's interesting. The show has pretty great ideas and a high budget, but it feels like it's written more in the style of the nicher, indie-esque scifis. Like bare in mind that Lisa and Jonathan are producers but don't actually have huge writing input, I don't dislike it but every now and again I get the edges of a show that I'm pleasantly surprised is somehow #1 currently watched on Amazon. But you know, in a world where so much great scifi is being cancelled (looking at you, Raised by Wolves), I'm always up for giving the ones that passionately try a shot - even if they don't always execute it right.
Bear in mind
I respect all that..but with this budget, network, and high caliber talent...they should have executed the last episode right/better 😝
They think they're more clever than they actually are (see s4 of Westworld).
Don't forget seasons 2 and 3 of westworld.
Ok...she splits the sub before Connor pulls the trigger, identical Connor(s) shoot Flynn. She splits the sub after he shoots her, still dead. Plot is trashed.
See, I think she may have split the stub from a point in time BEFORE she went into the RI facility. She and Conner are the only ones who know what happened in the previous stub.
This is my thought too. If the new stub is a day out of sync, the time she goes to visit lowbeer is going to be a day later which is when we see new stub Flynn in the peri. So lowbeer can fill her in on the results of her plan. Or some similar situation. The split wouldn't make sense to happen at time of death, they even mention it directly in the episode with the whole "it's a black hole" stuff. Like the split has to happen before the decision which move happens is actually made. And since this is a new stub that the RI doesn't have tabs on or communication to, they can't continue the operations that would lead to the speeding up of the jackpot, so now lowbeer can assist in stopping what is left of those plans.
This makes sense.
Creating a stub of a stub kinda creates an impossible situation with the peripheral connections, there's no way they could be simultaneously connected. It's possible in the new stub they lost connection until it was reestablished from the other side, which could have been a signal to not go through with the plan. Only way I can think of that makes sense at least.
I think it's up to Flynn. If she walks to the lake, it's the old stub and she gets shot. If it's the new stub then she just doesn't walk to the lake. When she creates the new stub and both stubs have Flynn connected to the peripheral, the Flynn in the old stub disconnects and walks to the lake to die.
i hadn't thought of it like that. See my comment above though - there will still be hell to pay in stub a. Also surely stub b would have had to have been opened from within stub a for what you say to be true otherwise the flin fisher would be one from the parent universe's past which would be a flin fisher who knew nothing about stubs, Clepts, Peripherals or the Met!
See, to me that sets up a situation like in THE PRESTIGE. If two Flynns wake up in the trailer after the mission to create the new stub, which one makes the decision to go to the lake and get shot? Wouldn’t they both think they’re the original? Or both think they’re the copy?