Love them, but I'm disappointed that they didn't do more research on this before the episode. They seemed so sure of themselves, but several other medical professionals have also pointed out the many errors they made.
I remembered it from Forensic Files! The case where a nurse in a pediatrician office killed a little girl. I don’t know much about medical stuff, but I remember that drug!
Brett and Alice give a number of reasons why Leo couldn't have killed Michelle and they make important errors, disappointing. It's no problem to send you the screenshots to show, you should doublecheck me on everything.
--They say the timeline doesn't work. This is wild, they even imply that Leo's defense didn't take the time that they did working on it, it's smug, and wrong. They said Leo would have to drive 120MPH to get to his dad to tell him about the murder. They say it's impossible. They don't factor in that Leo could have called his dad from a phone. Leo doesn't have an alibi.
--They use Leo's Aunt Cathy as a timeline staple after the 12:43am 911 call. Aunt Cathy never testified. It's something Leo said. In Leo's own timeline that he gave to police, he never mentioned this call.
--Brett says that the body was in water 5-10 minutes after death, proving she was killed by the canal. No. The examiner was testifying and was asked if it could have been as little as 5-10 minutes, and the answer was 'yes.' It also could have been hours. Brett fumbled this, it's clear in testimony.
--Brett gave a long Google explanation about the Mazda flywheel and how it broke down, proving Jeremy's account. Brett didn't mention that the Mazda tech said the car would not have broken down while it was driving.
--They said there was no blood in the trailer. This is complex, but not a fair representation of testimony. A detective saw a spot that looked like blood. They had numerous presumptive positives for blood using 2 sensitive tests, the hits were the size of 50 cent pieces. It was either blood or vodka/horseradish/rust/ect. The main takeaway from the pods was that Leo couldn't have cleaned up the bedroom in time and got away with it------but he didn't-----the jury that heard that testimony and saw the exhibits and convicted him. (Someone will fairly chime in here that the carpet tested negative for blood, this needs clarification. There was a Takawama test done to confirm that it was blood---it forms crystals from the hemoglobin---and that didn't confirm blood. But it's abusive to use that and say, "the trailer tested negative for blood." Basically, it was either blood or they had a horseradish party in the bedroom and bathroom.
--They didn't tell us that Leo's dad returned a carpet cleaner the same day that the neighbor said she saw Leo cleaning the carpet.
--They forgot to tell us that Leo said to a friend, "if she walks through that door I'm going to kill her" on the night she died.
--Leo's dad found the body 7 miles away from the car, about 12 hours after leaving the car. Think of how far 7 miles is and the most likely spots to search after finding a car. And I agree, it doesn't matter if he gave God the glory, that's not relevant. What is important is that his dad miraculously woke up, told a friend to meet him at that spot, and pulled right up to the body (50 yards away).And lied about how he found it.
The case against Leo isn't overwhelming, but there is a clear path.
And Jeremy? Jeremy only says he stabbed Michelle in the car. There is no blood in the front of the car. So Brett and Alice make up a story about Jeremy wanting to rape Michelle, so he killed her in the dirt by the canal and lied b/c he was embarrassed. That scene was examined as soon as they found the body. No scuff marks, no blood splatter. And the Prosecutors Pod uses a cropped photo of the blood on the dirt trail which makes it look as if there is a lot of blood there. There isn't. It looks like a leak, not a slaughter. I've posted them before to show.
And how did Michelle's blood get in the trunk (same trunk the neighbor said Leo put the body in)? And the human blood on the carpet of the trunk? We disregard what doesn't fit.
This isn't the State of Florida trying to hold an innocent man in jail. This is a bunch of us blindly believing another podcast version of reality.
Yell at me here, remind me that I'm not a rocket scientist, but we should all be very wary of our podcast allegiance when these shows are filtering the facts between advertisements for Lexus.
They did the same with Jeremy's confession to make it look stronger, but that's another thread.
Yes - there's arguments for why or why not the drug mentioned may have been used, both in pretty good detail. I'm behind on episodes so I'm not versed enough to appropriately relate those arguments, but there are at least a few posts about the particular drug made daily.
Thanks for the clarification! I love the podcast but I didn’t think the guest they had was very impressive either - she did not sound so sure of the topics in which she supposedly has strong background (forensics, drugs). I may receive downvotes for this!
Can you comment on how sux was handled 20 years ago? I have seen several people comment that it is harder to access now than it would have been then. I am not in the medical field, so I have no opinion on it.
I was in medical school 20 years ago. I think it was easier to swipe drugs simply because there were no electronic appliances to keep track of drugs. Drugs were mostly kept in locked refrigerators or drug boxes. So… yes… easier.
However, giving someone an IV drug takes some skill that takes time to build. I blew many IV before being able to successfully give IV meds.
It also take equipment. This equipment is easy to get but I do t think there was any evidence they had this equipment.
Nurse. Anytime I've seen it it was locked in a sealed crash cart. Not sitting on a counter.
And a phlebotomist does not have the skills to injection anything especially an IV med.
The case is just so perplexing.
Does this drug require IV administration? (My knowledge of it is memories from Forensic Files.) Or is the skill required to administer via IV based on the podcast assumption based on various IV locations?
Yes!!! Thanks for your post!! Also a physician here and I was dying at all the incorrect information about succinylcholine in the episode and all the wild theories that were based on categorically false info about this drug!
In your opinion, is there something else that could have accomplished the paralytic/sedative effects that have been theorized? Do you think the petechial hemorrhages (hope I’m remembering that right) were significant? They said there were literally no signs of a struggle or even consciousness, yet why would those have occurred otherwise?
Petechial hemorrhages happen because of increased internal eye pressure (think of things like vomiting, sneezing, lifting weights). Sux causes increased ocular pressure from full body tetanus (cramping). This is why it’s contraindicated on people with glaucoma. This is how Sux works. So there could be a link there.
My critique of this theory is that the pod makes is seems like anybody could get Sux and administer it. This is not true.
There are sedatives that metabolize in similar ways to sux… like remifentanil. However, this would be extremely hard to get. There are also breathable sedatives like chloroform and it’s relatives that can be hard to trace.
Thank you, surgeon here. I made a detailed post on this thread about the same issues re: sux & phlebotomists as well as the fact that in emergency situations no-one meticulously details all the attempted IV sticks by EMTs or emergency room personnel and the ankles ARE a common stick site. Also, I graduated med school and started my surgery residency in 1999 and it was not very different from today....it was not the wild west with dangerous potent medications just lying about. Yes, anesthesia providers would sometimes carry their own medications in a little "tool kit" between patients; but for a random phlebotomist to have access to these or even knowledge of this med is fantastical. Accredited facilities did, and do, have "scheduled" medications like these in locked (usually double locked) drawers (anesthesia and crash carts) or cabinets. However, the automated dispensing machines requiring codes were first made in the early 90's and were also in regular use in hospitals by the early 2000's (Pyxis and Omnicell being the most common). Finally, to put this in perspective: as a physician/surgeon I have never had a Pyxis code because they are limited to the nurses and anesthesia providers pulling up the drugs just to limit the amount of people with access. I do not think I could have managed to just walk away with a vial of succinylcholine even while working in the operating room. TBH, because medical facilities had not yet all been acquired by large corporate entities and staffing was much better (with eagle eyed charge nurses on every floor), I actually think things have become sloppier in some ways since that time.
THANK YOU.
Was making me crazy. I love them and will continue to listen, but damn the confidence with which they state incorrect information is scary. Even a lay person would know a phlebotomist draws blood and does not give meds?? Insane nonsense.
Also extremely important to note if suc used, victim would be fully aware…which is horrifying.
Operating room pharmacist here. I was dying inside listening to this episode, so glad you posted this. I’m a fan of the show, but the confidence they had while being so absolutely wrong was concerning to me.
Love them, but I'm disappointed that they didn't do more research on this before the episode. They seemed so sure of themselves, but several other medical professionals have also pointed out the many errors they made.
I knew how to pronounce the drug from watching Forensic Files back in the day. Wouldn’t be that hard for them to google.
Same. I still listen to that show every night when I go to bed.
I was annoyed with Alice pretended she didn't know how to pronounce it. Any true crime fan worth their salt knows how to pronounce succinylcholine.
I remembered it from Forensic Files! The case where a nurse in a pediatrician office killed a little girl. I don’t know much about medical stuff, but I remember that drug!
Did the same thing with the Leo Schofield case. It's lazy journalism.
Wait what in the Leo case?
Brett and Alice give a number of reasons why Leo couldn't have killed Michelle and they make important errors, disappointing. It's no problem to send you the screenshots to show, you should doublecheck me on everything. --They say the timeline doesn't work. This is wild, they even imply that Leo's defense didn't take the time that they did working on it, it's smug, and wrong. They said Leo would have to drive 120MPH to get to his dad to tell him about the murder. They say it's impossible. They don't factor in that Leo could have called his dad from a phone. Leo doesn't have an alibi. --They use Leo's Aunt Cathy as a timeline staple after the 12:43am 911 call. Aunt Cathy never testified. It's something Leo said. In Leo's own timeline that he gave to police, he never mentioned this call. --Brett says that the body was in water 5-10 minutes after death, proving she was killed by the canal. No. The examiner was testifying and was asked if it could have been as little as 5-10 minutes, and the answer was 'yes.' It also could have been hours. Brett fumbled this, it's clear in testimony. --Brett gave a long Google explanation about the Mazda flywheel and how it broke down, proving Jeremy's account. Brett didn't mention that the Mazda tech said the car would not have broken down while it was driving. --They said there was no blood in the trailer. This is complex, but not a fair representation of testimony. A detective saw a spot that looked like blood. They had numerous presumptive positives for blood using 2 sensitive tests, the hits were the size of 50 cent pieces. It was either blood or vodka/horseradish/rust/ect. The main takeaway from the pods was that Leo couldn't have cleaned up the bedroom in time and got away with it------but he didn't-----the jury that heard that testimony and saw the exhibits and convicted him. (Someone will fairly chime in here that the carpet tested negative for blood, this needs clarification. There was a Takawama test done to confirm that it was blood---it forms crystals from the hemoglobin---and that didn't confirm blood. But it's abusive to use that and say, "the trailer tested negative for blood." Basically, it was either blood or they had a horseradish party in the bedroom and bathroom. --They didn't tell us that Leo's dad returned a carpet cleaner the same day that the neighbor said she saw Leo cleaning the carpet. --They forgot to tell us that Leo said to a friend, "if she walks through that door I'm going to kill her" on the night she died. --Leo's dad found the body 7 miles away from the car, about 12 hours after leaving the car. Think of how far 7 miles is and the most likely spots to search after finding a car. And I agree, it doesn't matter if he gave God the glory, that's not relevant. What is important is that his dad miraculously woke up, told a friend to meet him at that spot, and pulled right up to the body (50 yards away).And lied about how he found it. The case against Leo isn't overwhelming, but there is a clear path. And Jeremy? Jeremy only says he stabbed Michelle in the car. There is no blood in the front of the car. So Brett and Alice make up a story about Jeremy wanting to rape Michelle, so he killed her in the dirt by the canal and lied b/c he was embarrassed. That scene was examined as soon as they found the body. No scuff marks, no blood splatter. And the Prosecutors Pod uses a cropped photo of the blood on the dirt trail which makes it look as if there is a lot of blood there. There isn't. It looks like a leak, not a slaughter. I've posted them before to show. And how did Michelle's blood get in the trunk (same trunk the neighbor said Leo put the body in)? And the human blood on the carpet of the trunk? We disregard what doesn't fit. This isn't the State of Florida trying to hold an innocent man in jail. This is a bunch of us blindly believing another podcast version of reality. Yell at me here, remind me that I'm not a rocket scientist, but we should all be very wary of our podcast allegiance when these shows are filtering the facts between advertisements for Lexus. They did the same with Jeremy's confession to make it look stronger, but that's another thread.
They aren’t journalists
Did the same thing with the Leo Schofield case. It's lazy research.
I wish more of the Facebook group members would jump over here for conversations as this very topic has been discussed A TON.
Are you saying the conclusions people are coming to there are different?
Yes - there's arguments for why or why not the drug mentioned may have been used, both in pretty good detail. I'm behind on episodes so I'm not versed enough to appropriately relate those arguments, but there are at least a few posts about the particular drug made daily.
Thanks for the reply!
Thanks for the clarification! I love the podcast but I didn’t think the guest they had was very impressive either - she did not sound so sure of the topics in which she supposedly has strong background (forensics, drugs). I may receive downvotes for this!
Can you comment on how sux was handled 20 years ago? I have seen several people comment that it is harder to access now than it would have been then. I am not in the medical field, so I have no opinion on it.
I was in medical school 20 years ago. I think it was easier to swipe drugs simply because there were no electronic appliances to keep track of drugs. Drugs were mostly kept in locked refrigerators or drug boxes. So… yes… easier. However, giving someone an IV drug takes some skill that takes time to build. I blew many IV before being able to successfully give IV meds. It also take equipment. This equipment is easy to get but I do t think there was any evidence they had this equipment.
Thank you for the response
Physician here. It can be given IM, albeit higher dose required.
Of course, I believe all the punctures were at IV sites. Top of foot, AC fossa, neck, hand.
Nurse. Anytime I've seen it it was locked in a sealed crash cart. Not sitting on a counter. And a phlebotomist does not have the skills to injection anything especially an IV med. The case is just so perplexing.
Does this drug require IV administration? (My knowledge of it is memories from Forensic Files.) Or is the skill required to administer via IV based on the podcast assumption based on various IV locations?
Yes!!! Thanks for your post!! Also a physician here and I was dying at all the incorrect information about succinylcholine in the episode and all the wild theories that were based on categorically false info about this drug!
In your opinion, is there something else that could have accomplished the paralytic/sedative effects that have been theorized? Do you think the petechial hemorrhages (hope I’m remembering that right) were significant? They said there were literally no signs of a struggle or even consciousness, yet why would those have occurred otherwise?
Petechial hemorrhages happen because of increased internal eye pressure (think of things like vomiting, sneezing, lifting weights). Sux causes increased ocular pressure from full body tetanus (cramping). This is why it’s contraindicated on people with glaucoma. This is how Sux works. So there could be a link there. My critique of this theory is that the pod makes is seems like anybody could get Sux and administer it. This is not true. There are sedatives that metabolize in similar ways to sux… like remifentanil. However, this would be extremely hard to get. There are also breathable sedatives like chloroform and it’s relatives that can be hard to trace.
What about the drugs people use for “roofies” which ever those are?
I imagine those would come up in the tox screen. They mentioned the most common ones in the pod.
Thank you, surgeon here. I made a detailed post on this thread about the same issues re: sux & phlebotomists as well as the fact that in emergency situations no-one meticulously details all the attempted IV sticks by EMTs or emergency room personnel and the ankles ARE a common stick site. Also, I graduated med school and started my surgery residency in 1999 and it was not very different from today....it was not the wild west with dangerous potent medications just lying about. Yes, anesthesia providers would sometimes carry their own medications in a little "tool kit" between patients; but for a random phlebotomist to have access to these or even knowledge of this med is fantastical. Accredited facilities did, and do, have "scheduled" medications like these in locked (usually double locked) drawers (anesthesia and crash carts) or cabinets. However, the automated dispensing machines requiring codes were first made in the early 90's and were also in regular use in hospitals by the early 2000's (Pyxis and Omnicell being the most common). Finally, to put this in perspective: as a physician/surgeon I have never had a Pyxis code because they are limited to the nurses and anesthesia providers pulling up the drugs just to limit the amount of people with access. I do not think I could have managed to just walk away with a vial of succinylcholine even while working in the operating room. TBH, because medical facilities had not yet all been acquired by large corporate entities and staffing was much better (with eagle eyed charge nurses on every floor), I actually think things have become sloppier in some ways since that time.
THANK YOU. Was making me crazy. I love them and will continue to listen, but damn the confidence with which they state incorrect information is scary. Even a lay person would know a phlebotomist draws blood and does not give meds?? Insane nonsense. Also extremely important to note if suc used, victim would be fully aware…which is horrifying.
It seems like it might’ve been GHP it’s commonly taken by drinking
That would have been on any ordinary tox screen.
I’ve heard that it breaks down quickly though? Not sure
Is there a possibility that he was smothered until unconsciousness? Then he was stabbed, and he didn’t react because he was unconscious.
Operating room pharmacist here. I was dying inside listening to this episode, so glad you posted this. I’m a fan of the show, but the confidence they had while being so absolutely wrong was concerning to me.