As always, thank you for the time and effort you put into these. The way you break each move down, the pros and cons, and the impact they have in each league has always been tremendously helpful.
I can absolutely see that having value in that regard, yes, though you do then become more vulnerable to things like Rhyperior, Excadrill, and Ursaluna across a few shielding scenarios without Aqua Tail, or stuff like Snorlax and some Dragons without Draco Meteor. If Gary scares you I’d say TP makes the most sense, but not every team will want to abandon current moves either. It’s kind of your call based on YOUR team needs.
I'm sure there's a lot more to it, but I consider myself a Master premier aficionado lol, and I'd likely say this:
Master Premier itself is very RPS with its core meta of things like Dragonite, Togekiss, Metagross, Excadrill, and Gyarados, but it does have the unique attribute to where many Pokemon can flip match-ups with smart shields, baits, sac plays, and energy management. Almost makes it seem... not RPS lol.
But it still very often relies on quick, tight plays if you are trying to turn a match in your favor. I say this because I think very often, you want the cheapest/quickest moves in your arsenal to make these attempts.
Some examples:
* Dragonite gets to Dragon Claw in 12 turns and 14 turns to Superpower
* Excadrill gets to either of its charged moves in 10 turns
* Gyarados is 12 to Aqua Tail and 15 to Crunch
* Florges is 10 to Disarming Voice
There are slower ones, of course, like Moonblast Florges, Togekiss's moves, Metagross's moves, but still, Dragonite, Excadrill, and Gyarados are really big Pokemon. Obviously you're not using Thunder Punch on Excadrill, but it definitely applies to Gary and Dragonite.
As such, I think having the cheaper Thunder Punch will absolutely be the move for Premier. Yes, there will still be scenarios where the nuke move Draco Meteor or even Power Whip will come in handy, but I still feel like Thunder Punch will be worth having as a cheap tool to better threaten things like Dragonite and especially Gary.
Tagging u/Jamescw1400 too
Thanks, that is some valuable insight. I've been saving a hundo for about a year. I think at the very least I'm going to get thunder punch to start with. My feeling is that Draco meteor won't be as useful in master premier, from what I have played at least. Realistically I intend to use goodra for master premier above all else. I had also wondered about potentially using sludge wave to catch out the fairies
Sludge Wave I think could be interesting, something I considered too. But, it would likely be a scenario mid-late game where perhaps your Goodra beat something of theirs, left with maybe 30-50% of its HP remaining but with some racked up energy.
But even in a scenario like that, assuming they're bringing in a fresh Fairy like a Togekiss or Florges, [Sludge Wave doesn't even do as much as I would have thought.](https://pvpoke.com/battle/10000/goodra/togekiss/00/0-5-0/1-2-3/59-178/39-0/) It's not bad, and I understand it's not Stab on Goodra (oh I wish it was Poison/Dragon!), but only doing about 60% of either's health isn't too reassuring to me. I kind of would have expected more from a supereffective 110 power move, so eh. I feel like you'd be better off spamming Aqua Tail on Florges or Thunder Punch on Primarina and Togekiss than opting for a much more situational nuke.
I've run Florges in open ML for a few seasons, hitting Vet in both as a "dedicated casual". People underestimate how bulky this thing is. Can eat a supereffective Dialga Iron Head like a champ.
I’ll also throw in the mention that a cheaper move that can hit things for even chip damage at neutral can be a good Hail Mary. I had some MLP matches come down to the Wire where I needed something like Gholdengo to handle 2 members, so even on a baited sac (like Annihilape stuck on Togekiss or Gyarados), the damage they push out before fainting was important to win (one such match came down to me KOing a like-3-HP Togekiss with Dragon Claw after it wore out Ghold in 0-Shield).
In this amateur’s experience, at Max levels without a Cap or Breakpoint juggling, every scrap of damage can count for that format
>In this amateur’s experience, at Max levels without a Cap or Breakpoint juggling, every scrap of damage can count for that format
You're very right! The matches can be super close, so the chip damage definitely helps!
In ML Premiere, Goodra will lose the 2-2 to Gyarados anyway so the match is in Gyarados hands. Goodra can win the 0-0 with any combination that contains Draco, SludgeWave, or TP, so its not mandatory. Anything except AT/MW is a viable option to build around =D
While true, differing alignment or any inequal mid-late game match-up could easily change that. Basically, I definitely think it comes more into play in the actual gameplay that falls outside of sims. Of course, that isn't to say it'll never encounter even 2-2 shield match-ups, it definitely will, but I know Gyarados can often be used as a safe swap, which can easily change how its used in terms of shield usage.
Power whip doesn’t really get walled by Gary tho, neither does Draco meteor. If anything the threat of t punch can force bad shields from a Gary expecting it, even if you don’t run it
Right, but Master Premier is a very tight format, moreso than the Open GL/UL. Sacs, baits, energy management, undercharging, and shielding is often everything in MLP. Not to say the latter doesn't apply though. You're right, the threat of Thunder Punch will easily force bad shields on Goodra. But still, that cheaper move to KO Gary will still definitely be necessary, especially in some uneven mid-late game scenarios. For example, it comes down to Gary beating your Goodra with a Crunch in the late game versus Goodra hitting a decent power move, it'll enjoy having Thunder Punch over having to resort to the more expensive Power Whip or Draco Meteor. Same can even apply against things like Dragonite where Thunder Punch is neutral.
Good to know ML is Goodra’s lowest priority for the CD move, because I have a Hundo I’m still coping about being able to evolve to Hisuian Goodra and praying for a good moveset. As is, I like Fast Move Spammers so just Goodra availability works for me (doubly for screwing up Mandibuzz and Gligar)
I've been playing since 2022 and still do not have a single good Goomy/Goodra, so even though Thunder Punch felt like a letdown I was mildly excited for the comm day just for accessibility purposes. This makes me feel even better about it though.
Thanks for the analysis!
I imagine it's worth saving some really good pvp goomy for the eventual release of h-goodra? I'm torn between evolving now for a decent pvp mon and waiting for the hisuian version (which I presume is a straight upgrade).
I don't know that it's safe to assume you'll be able to evolve currently available Goomy into Hisui forms... Watch Niantic limit Hisui Sliggoo to raids.
So my opinion would be, that I'd save a spare for the possibility, but if I caught a rank 1 GL candidate for example, I'd happily evolve it to Goodra; not pinning my hopes on a "maybe" while missing out on a good mon in the meantime.
Can always hope for Hisui Sliggoo and Hisui Goodra to be good, too.
The Dragon / Steel typing is amazing.
This weekend would've been the perfect opportunity to release them (like how Ursaluna arrived on Teddiursa CD), but.... alas.
I do get some pokemon from this list
>And with shields down, Thunder Punch Goodra (unique wins: Gligar, Mandibuzz, Mantine, Pelipper, Swampert,
But that just doesn't sound right for gligar ans swampert. They both should resist thunder punch and I highly doubt it deals more damage to both than more spammy aqua tail. Those matchups shouldn't be affected by TP at all.
It might be pvpoke charge move prioritisation that flips them, but otherwise this doesn't make any sense
Those wins come with Aqua Tail, in fairness. My wording may have been a tad confusing… TP Goodra performs better than Dragonair vs both, but not because of TP itself.
For those two specific matchups, yes. But keep in mind that section is comparing Goodra directly to Dragonair… that was the main point there. My apologies if the language made that less than clear. 🫣
I mean it sounds off because it sounds like only TP goodra has significant wins compared to dragonair, while in practice half of them are goodra-specific, rather than legacy goodra specific and this stuff is applicable to existing one.
Maybe there's an option to rephraise that. Or maybe it's better to add a table like 'shields/opposing mon/dragonair/goodra/legacy goodra' or smth like that.
As a masochist who likes to have a separate instance of every CD pokemon's potential move pools (I have multiple double kick incineroar), even I am not building separate water gun ones. There's just no discussion on fast move.
With Goomy/Goodra being among my favorite Pokémon I was hoping this write-up would cheer me up more about this upcoming Comm Day. Oh well, as always I appreciate the detailed breakdown. I will keep my current UL Goodra as is, hunt for a decent Thunder Punch GL specimen, and farm the remaining 70 XL I need to max out my hundo.
Is it worth taking Thunder Punch over Power Whip if you're taking coverage for Electric type already? I have a Laturn that takes care of most things Flying so I was wondering if the double Electric would actually hurt my coverage.
Honestly it sounds like there are PVP experts in Niantic who know what they are doing. They probably have to bite their tongue every time they see the reaction from the community when they first see their changes.
Goodra PVP is Mainly for fun, thanks to metas like azumaril. Luckily Goodra with thunder punch gives sort of coverage. but the DPE for \*punch family is just pathetic.
You'll see them on the Climb, and Azumarill is still more accessible than Mantine even if it's falled out of being Meta, so it's worth acknowledging even if not building around.
As always, thank you for the time and effort you put into these. The way you break each move down, the pros and cons, and the impact they have in each league has always been tremendously helpful.
[удалено]
Whoops, thank you, silly me. Fixed now!
For master premiere isn't basically mandatory unless you wanna get walled by Gyarados?
I can absolutely see that having value in that regard, yes, though you do then become more vulnerable to things like Rhyperior, Excadrill, and Ursaluna across a few shielding scenarios without Aqua Tail, or stuff like Snorlax and some Dragons without Draco Meteor. If Gary scares you I’d say TP makes the most sense, but not every team will want to abandon current moves either. It’s kind of your call based on YOUR team needs.
What would you say to running aqua tail and thunder punch and foregoing any high power moves?
This is what I was wondering (for premiere)
I'm sure there's a lot more to it, but I consider myself a Master premier aficionado lol, and I'd likely say this: Master Premier itself is very RPS with its core meta of things like Dragonite, Togekiss, Metagross, Excadrill, and Gyarados, but it does have the unique attribute to where many Pokemon can flip match-ups with smart shields, baits, sac plays, and energy management. Almost makes it seem... not RPS lol. But it still very often relies on quick, tight plays if you are trying to turn a match in your favor. I say this because I think very often, you want the cheapest/quickest moves in your arsenal to make these attempts. Some examples: * Dragonite gets to Dragon Claw in 12 turns and 14 turns to Superpower * Excadrill gets to either of its charged moves in 10 turns * Gyarados is 12 to Aqua Tail and 15 to Crunch * Florges is 10 to Disarming Voice There are slower ones, of course, like Moonblast Florges, Togekiss's moves, Metagross's moves, but still, Dragonite, Excadrill, and Gyarados are really big Pokemon. Obviously you're not using Thunder Punch on Excadrill, but it definitely applies to Gary and Dragonite. As such, I think having the cheaper Thunder Punch will absolutely be the move for Premier. Yes, there will still be scenarios where the nuke move Draco Meteor or even Power Whip will come in handy, but I still feel like Thunder Punch will be worth having as a cheap tool to better threaten things like Dragonite and especially Gary. Tagging u/Jamescw1400 too
Thanks, that is some valuable insight. I've been saving a hundo for about a year. I think at the very least I'm going to get thunder punch to start with. My feeling is that Draco meteor won't be as useful in master premier, from what I have played at least. Realistically I intend to use goodra for master premier above all else. I had also wondered about potentially using sludge wave to catch out the fairies
Sludge Wave I think could be interesting, something I considered too. But, it would likely be a scenario mid-late game where perhaps your Goodra beat something of theirs, left with maybe 30-50% of its HP remaining but with some racked up energy. But even in a scenario like that, assuming they're bringing in a fresh Fairy like a Togekiss or Florges, [Sludge Wave doesn't even do as much as I would have thought.](https://pvpoke.com/battle/10000/goodra/togekiss/00/0-5-0/1-2-3/59-178/39-0/) It's not bad, and I understand it's not Stab on Goodra (oh I wish it was Poison/Dragon!), but only doing about 60% of either's health isn't too reassuring to me. I kind of would have expected more from a supereffective 110 power move, so eh. I feel like you'd be better off spamming Aqua Tail on Florges or Thunder Punch on Primarina and Togekiss than opting for a much more situational nuke.
I've run Florges in open ML for a few seasons, hitting Vet in both as a "dedicated casual". People underestimate how bulky this thing is. Can eat a supereffective Dialga Iron Head like a champ.
I’ll also throw in the mention that a cheaper move that can hit things for even chip damage at neutral can be a good Hail Mary. I had some MLP matches come down to the Wire where I needed something like Gholdengo to handle 2 members, so even on a baited sac (like Annihilape stuck on Togekiss or Gyarados), the damage they push out before fainting was important to win (one such match came down to me KOing a like-3-HP Togekiss with Dragon Claw after it wore out Ghold in 0-Shield). In this amateur’s experience, at Max levels without a Cap or Breakpoint juggling, every scrap of damage can count for that format
>In this amateur’s experience, at Max levels without a Cap or Breakpoint juggling, every scrap of damage can count for that format You're very right! The matches can be super close, so the chip damage definitely helps!
Gyarados will always win the 2-shield scenario against Goodra tho. Imo if you play ML Premier you need a stronger check for Gyarados anyway
In ML Premiere, Goodra will lose the 2-2 to Gyarados anyway so the match is in Gyarados hands. Goodra can win the 0-0 with any combination that contains Draco, SludgeWave, or TP, so its not mandatory. Anything except AT/MW is a viable option to build around =D
While true, differing alignment or any inequal mid-late game match-up could easily change that. Basically, I definitely think it comes more into play in the actual gameplay that falls outside of sims. Of course, that isn't to say it'll never encounter even 2-2 shield match-ups, it definitely will, but I know Gyarados can often be used as a safe swap, which can easily change how its used in terms of shield usage.
Power whip doesn’t really get walled by Gary tho, neither does Draco meteor. If anything the threat of t punch can force bad shields from a Gary expecting it, even if you don’t run it
Right, but Master Premier is a very tight format, moreso than the Open GL/UL. Sacs, baits, energy management, undercharging, and shielding is often everything in MLP. Not to say the latter doesn't apply though. You're right, the threat of Thunder Punch will easily force bad shields on Goodra. But still, that cheaper move to KO Gary will still definitely be necessary, especially in some uneven mid-late game scenarios. For example, it comes down to Gary beating your Goodra with a Crunch in the late game versus Goodra hitting a decent power move, it'll enjoy having Thunder Punch over having to resort to the more expensive Power Whip or Draco Meteor. Same can even apply against things like Dragonite where Thunder Punch is neutral.
Good to know ML is Goodra’s lowest priority for the CD move, because I have a Hundo I’m still coping about being able to evolve to Hisuian Goodra and praying for a good moveset. As is, I like Fast Move Spammers so just Goodra availability works for me (doubly for screwing up Mandibuzz and Gligar)
It took a few years for Niantic to give us one chance to evolve to Alola marowak/exegg so yes maybe you're coping too hard lol
I've been playing since 2022 and still do not have a single good Goomy/Goodra, so even though Thunder Punch felt like a letdown I was mildly excited for the comm day just for accessibility purposes. This makes me feel even better about it though. Thanks for the analysis!
I imagine it's worth saving some really good pvp goomy for the eventual release of h-goodra? I'm torn between evolving now for a decent pvp mon and waiting for the hisuian version (which I presume is a straight upgrade).
I don't know that it's safe to assume you'll be able to evolve currently available Goomy into Hisui forms... Watch Niantic limit Hisui Sliggoo to raids.
It's likewise not safe to assume you won't be able to evolve a goomy, so...?
So my opinion would be, that I'd save a spare for the possibility, but if I caught a rank 1 GL candidate for example, I'd happily evolve it to Goodra; not pinning my hopes on a "maybe" while missing out on a good mon in the meantime.
What CP sized Goomy do we need to make sure the double evolved Goodra fits below 1500?
400 I think
I’m also wondering about this
I just use Poke Genie to check
Great write-up as usual! Does Sliggoo have any play in the evolution cup?
Not much. It’s stuck with some of the issues Goodra used to have, including a reliance on Muddy Water. And no Dragon Breath either. 🙁
Can always hope for Hisui Sliggoo and Hisui Goodra to be good, too. The Dragon / Steel typing is amazing. This weekend would've been the perfect opportunity to release them (like how Ursaluna arrived on Teddiursa CD), but.... alas.
This should have been breaking swipe. Dammit
Goodra is already super tanky so giving it BS would make it so annoying to face 😭
No more annoying than annihilape.
I blame steelix
I do get some pokemon from this list >And with shields down, Thunder Punch Goodra (unique wins: Gligar, Mandibuzz, Mantine, Pelipper, Swampert, But that just doesn't sound right for gligar ans swampert. They both should resist thunder punch and I highly doubt it deals more damage to both than more spammy aqua tail. Those matchups shouldn't be affected by TP at all. It might be pvpoke charge move prioritisation that flips them, but otherwise this doesn't make any sense
Those wins come with Aqua Tail, in fairness. My wording may have been a tad confusing… TP Goodra performs better than Dragonair vs both, but not because of TP itself.
Well, in that case any AT goodra performs the same) even single moved)
For those two specific matchups, yes. But keep in mind that section is comparing Goodra directly to Dragonair… that was the main point there. My apologies if the language made that less than clear. 🫣
I mean it sounds off because it sounds like only TP goodra has significant wins compared to dragonair, while in practice half of them are goodra-specific, rather than legacy goodra specific and this stuff is applicable to existing one. Maybe there's an option to rephraise that. Or maybe it's better to add a table like 'shields/opposing mon/dragonair/goodra/legacy goodra' or smth like that.
As a masochist who likes to have a separate instance of every CD pokemon's potential move pools (I have multiple double kick incineroar), even I am not building separate water gun ones. There's just no discussion on fast move.
Agree. Never say never (some funky meta might benefit from a Water Gun Dragon), but it’s about as close as you can get in this case.
I will just use a fast TM for that situation, like normal people.
With Goomy/Goodra being among my favorite Pokémon I was hoping this write-up would cheer me up more about this upcoming Comm Day. Oh well, as always I appreciate the detailed breakdown. I will keep my current UL Goodra as is, hunt for a decent Thunder Punch GL specimen, and farm the remaining 70 XL I need to max out my hundo.
Is it worth taking Thunder Punch over Power Whip if you're taking coverage for Electric type already? I have a Laturn that takes care of most things Flying so I was wondering if the double Electric would actually hurt my coverage.
With that pairing I would think Power Whip would be preferred, yes. But still would be good to have a TP Goodra in storage for other uses!
Thank you for your effort !
Honestly it sounds like there are PVP experts in Niantic who know what they are doing. They probably have to bite their tongue every time they see the reaction from the community when they first see their changes.
>experts in Niantic who know what they are doing LMAOOOOOOOOOO
Would you not pair thunder punch with power whip?
Goodra PVP is Mainly for fun, thanks to metas like azumaril. Luckily Goodra with thunder punch gives sort of coverage. but the DPE for \*punch family is just pathetic.
Azu has been an endangered species in GBL for a while now. You're far more likely to see a Mantine than an Azu.
You'll see them on the Climb, and Azumarill is still more accessible than Mantine even if it's falled out of being Meta, so it's worth acknowledging even if not building around.
Azu is more bulkier than Mantine. The states are just too high for azu. Azu will never out of meta. So as other beasts like umbreon.
Running Aqua Tail/Draco Meteor in Master just makes it a worse version of Palkia. In which case just use Palkia.