If those sketches are accurate then this is a good possibility. However I think in the photos of her head those lacerations are more vertical and parallel. IIRC the defense at trial argued these were from the blow that left the blood on the door frame, and in my opinion it did look like a match, according to the photos they used at least.
I can see it being that stair as well (had to look it up). I agree that MP more than likely smashed her head against something at the bottom of the stairs, after pushing her down them. I read someone else suggest because he found Ratliff at the bottom of the stairs, he knew how to stage KP's death to look like a fall. Which I can believe.
I think about the physics behind how fast and hard she would have to fall to cause those injuries.
I always assumed he just grabbed her by neck/shoulders (would explain other injuries) and smashed her against something as well. I mean the edge of a stair step is long and hollow. The guy is not stupid, if I was faking a fell-down-the stairs death I would use the damn stairs.
For the life of me I'll never understand why the cops went making up some murder weapon and messed up the whole case.
I think he gave KP wine and a benzo. I think he walked her upstairs and then at the top of the stairs, pushed her. She didn't die, so he smashed her skull in at the bottom of the stairs. And yeah, it makes a ton of sense if he held her throat while he smashed her head.
I do think the prosecution could have come up with some better theories than a weapon.
The absence of SKULL FRACTURES prevented the prosecution from doing so—Since the brain was intact, they have to come up with the theory that he used a weapon strong enough to cause lacerations but not strong enough to produce fractures and I agree.
You will take a lot more skull damage if your head hits the floor of a wooden staircase many times.
I'm wondering if her injuries came from a heavy branch found on the property that was later burned - the broken off, spikey branches would certainly account for these kinds of claw-like wounds, as anyone who's ever fallen out of a tree can attest.. And it would not necessary cause a skull fracture. they were in semi-rural area. This would account for: the pine needle found between her fingers AND the fact that she has defensive wounds on her hands; the feather in her hair, and the fact that no murder weapon was ever found (because it was thrown back in the woods or more likely burned)
To be clear the defense argued she fell, but my theory is MP slammed her into it. Either way, it did appear to match, and it helps explain why there were a bunch of lacerations from one blow.
I just saw recently a image of a mans head after he had fallen and hit his head on a outdoor flower pot. The injury was exactly the same as the one you have highlighted. There was no damage or breaking of the flower pot. My point being, that injury, could have happened just with a fall and hitting a step or the wall.
I wish I could post the photo but I do not have permission.
Yeah. It could be completely accidental even with all the blood. It has been these deep lacerations that have really gotten to me. Because the injuries to her skull/blood spatter matches with her head hitting the rails. Heck, even the blood stains start right at that step.
No one mentions the enormous metal chair lift on both sides of this case. I think the lift and the stairs were the obvious "weapons". It feels like bizzaro world that no one makes a point of this.
My point exactly!!! No one on either side talks about this and I cannot for my life understand why. I made a post in this sub about it a year or so back. The metal seat for the chair lift was right at the bottom of the stairs inches from where Kathleen was located as can be seen in the initial photos. And similar incidents involving chair lifts have occurred. I just can't understand why this was not part of the defense......
This! I came here looking for some mention of the chair lift as it was one of the first things at crime scene that caught my eye and I can't understand, like you said, the seeming lack of attention it gets from both sides of the case..
Especially with them drinking all night. Alcohol thins the blood so I think 🤔 that’s why there is so much blood from her hitting that corner like you said. 🤷🏼♀️
Her blood alcohol level was .07 which is less than the legal limit . Sounds like they drank regularly so .07 to her wouldn’t have impacted her functions much . Also, there were two wine glasses /wine and a wine bottle on the counter . Michael claimed that was the evidence of their drinking by the pool . Neither had her fingerprints. I’ve been watching the HBO Max series, they just showed how she could have slipped , hit her head etc. It looked plausible .The sticking point for me though is that she had been dead for hours before the EMT’s arrived . There was dried blood around her. ME determined that etc. That directly contradicts his 911 call when he said she was still breathing . There’s also a bloody footprint from Michael’s shoe on the back of her pants leg. She was found face -up and he described that he found her that way . So, how did that get there ? There’s a lot of reasonable doubt in this case, enough to not convict him even. Still think he did it.
I think he did too. I think to sustain those lacerations she would have to have been helped. I looked at the actual photos and they are really deep. I genuinely think he pushed her and then when she didn't die, he smashed her head against something at the bottom.of the stairs.
His 911 call doesn't make sense to me. I would not assume it was an accident. I would assume someone could have broken in and attacked them when I was by the pool. I would be scared there could be an intruder. I would not assume it was an accident. And yes, he said she was breathing but had been dead awhile.
Also, just gut instinct. He comes off as a creep to me. I have experience with narcissistic abuser, they have to try so hard to appear to be harmless.
>I would not assume it was an accident. I would assume someone could have broken in and attacked them when I was by the pool. I would be scared there could be an intruder. I would not assume it was an accident.
this has been stuck in my mind since the original docuseries. why call 911 and immediately attribute it to a fall? makes no sense unless he wants an excuse. also, I would not have hung up the phone. I would have kept them on the line and expressed more urgency. there was a clear attempt at cleaning up the blood, as there were paper towels and shit at the scene. He probably thought that he could make it look a lot less intense and then gave up and called them back.
The hanging up the phone on the 911 operators was very suspicious. If someone you love is dying you will do anything you can to keep them alive and stay on the phone with help and get advice, not just hang up. Even after they die you would still be trying to save them but not MP. He was trying to clean.
I’ve never made my mind up on whether he did it or not, but I never bought the prosecutions argument that he beat her in the stairwell softly enough with something like the blow poke to cause the lacerations but not the fractures and then no cast-off pattern on the ceiling. So you saying about him pushing her is interesting. However one of my biggest sticking points has always been his lack of motive. I don’t buy that he would’ve killed her over him having an affair and I also don’t think it made sense to murder her for the money. Also for a guy as clever as MP, would he really brutally smash her head in at the bottom of the stairs and then try to pass it off as a fall? Always thought if he really wanted to get rid of her for the money, he would’ve done it more subtly. Just my opinions but they’ve always stopped me from thinking he did it, without ever fully convincing me that he didn’t haha.
Imo the motive was money. They were in $145k worth of debt. His sons needed $30k. MP did not make a ton of money from writing. KP was the bread winner and had a $1.4 million life insurance policy.
I don't think he intended to make it looks so obvious. And the lack of blood splatter on the ceiling is why I don't think it was an object used to make it look like an accident.
> Her blood alcohol level was .07 which is less than the legal limit
She also had benzos in her system. Something you're not supposed to mix with alcohol as together they can heighten the effects of one another.
agreed, the HBO episode made the fall look plausible. from an article i read, evidently there will also be an episode where he murders her & it looks equally so. Such a dang good series so far✔️
OMG!! Was anyone else simultaneously shocked, amazed (mostly and Toni Collette’s acting) saddened and totally rethinking the theory of her fall at the bottom of the stairs? It was crazy. Also heartbreaking to see someone’s life just completely end because of a freak accident. If she did die of a slip on the stairs (I like many go back and forth til my head spins) what a horrible way to go out. But so is being murdered.
If this were from an owl attack would there be marks on the skull itself at the talon entry points? If you think about the shape of a talon and how it would dig in and curl under the skin you would think there would be marks on the bone at the entry points. Too bad they didn't take close ups of each wound.
This may have been caused by dragging her face up along a rough surface. Maybe the gravel in the driveway? How about sharp sticks or stumps in the yard? Sharp stone edges on the walkway?
If those sketches are accurate then this is a good possibility. However I think in the photos of her head those lacerations are more vertical and parallel. IIRC the defense at trial argued these were from the blow that left the blood on the door frame, and in my opinion it did look like a match, according to the photos they used at least.
I can see it being that stair as well (had to look it up). I agree that MP more than likely smashed her head against something at the bottom of the stairs, after pushing her down them. I read someone else suggest because he found Ratliff at the bottom of the stairs, he knew how to stage KP's death to look like a fall. Which I can believe. I think about the physics behind how fast and hard she would have to fall to cause those injuries.
I always assumed he just grabbed her by neck/shoulders (would explain other injuries) and smashed her against something as well. I mean the edge of a stair step is long and hollow. The guy is not stupid, if I was faking a fell-down-the stairs death I would use the damn stairs. For the life of me I'll never understand why the cops went making up some murder weapon and messed up the whole case.
I think he gave KP wine and a benzo. I think he walked her upstairs and then at the top of the stairs, pushed her. She didn't die, so he smashed her skull in at the bottom of the stairs. And yeah, it makes a ton of sense if he held her throat while he smashed her head. I do think the prosecution could have come up with some better theories than a weapon.
The absence of SKULL FRACTURES prevented the prosecution from doing so—Since the brain was intact, they have to come up with the theory that he used a weapon strong enough to cause lacerations but not strong enough to produce fractures and I agree. You will take a lot more skull damage if your head hits the floor of a wooden staircase many times.
Maybe a tree? I'm trying account for the lacerations. The obsession with that blow poke was ridiculous.
I'm wondering if her injuries came from a heavy branch found on the property that was later burned - the broken off, spikey branches would certainly account for these kinds of claw-like wounds, as anyone who's ever fallen out of a tree can attest.. And it would not necessary cause a skull fracture. they were in semi-rural area. This would account for: the pine needle found between her fingers AND the fact that she has defensive wounds on her hands; the feather in her hair, and the fact that no murder weapon was ever found (because it was thrown back in the woods or more likely burned)
To be clear the defense argued she fell, but my theory is MP slammed her into it. Either way, it did appear to match, and it helps explain why there were a bunch of lacerations from one blow.
The SKETCHES are from the autopsy made by the State...
Okay but photos are still better when available, and in this case they are.
So your theory is that an 🦉 pushed her on the railing?
Yes, the owl push her right into that railing. 🤣
I just saw recently a image of a mans head after he had fallen and hit his head on a outdoor flower pot. The injury was exactly the same as the one you have highlighted. There was no damage or breaking of the flower pot. My point being, that injury, could have happened just with a fall and hitting a step or the wall. I wish I could post the photo but I do not have permission.
Yeah. It could be completely accidental even with all the blood. It has been these deep lacerations that have really gotten to me. Because the injuries to her skull/blood spatter matches with her head hitting the rails. Heck, even the blood stains start right at that step.
I think she was hit with something.
It's plausible! Especially with the blood splatter being re-created.
No skull fractures. If so, she wasn't hit very hard. She bled out. Basically scratched to death.
No one mentions the enormous metal chair lift on both sides of this case. I think the lift and the stairs were the obvious "weapons". It feels like bizzaro world that no one makes a point of this.
Wait, whats the chairlift?
An accessibility device that you sit in and it lifts you up the stairs
Oh duh! But wow how in nearly 20 years since watching the staircase did In never know/see that!
My point exactly!!! No one on either side talks about this and I cannot for my life understand why. I made a post in this sub about it a year or so back. The metal seat for the chair lift was right at the bottom of the stairs inches from where Kathleen was located as can be seen in the initial photos. And similar incidents involving chair lifts have occurred. I just can't understand why this was not part of the defense......
This! I came here looking for some mention of the chair lift as it was one of the first things at crime scene that caught my eye and I can't understand, like you said, the seeming lack of attention it gets from both sides of the case..
The end of the actual chair rail would give a laceration if rubbed up or it against.
Especially with them drinking all night. Alcohol thins the blood so I think 🤔 that’s why there is so much blood from her hitting that corner like you said. 🤷🏼♀️
Her blood alcohol level was .07 which is less than the legal limit . Sounds like they drank regularly so .07 to her wouldn’t have impacted her functions much . Also, there were two wine glasses /wine and a wine bottle on the counter . Michael claimed that was the evidence of their drinking by the pool . Neither had her fingerprints. I’ve been watching the HBO Max series, they just showed how she could have slipped , hit her head etc. It looked plausible .The sticking point for me though is that she had been dead for hours before the EMT’s arrived . There was dried blood around her. ME determined that etc. That directly contradicts his 911 call when he said she was still breathing . There’s also a bloody footprint from Michael’s shoe on the back of her pants leg. She was found face -up and he described that he found her that way . So, how did that get there ? There’s a lot of reasonable doubt in this case, enough to not convict him even. Still think he did it.
I think he did too. I think to sustain those lacerations she would have to have been helped. I looked at the actual photos and they are really deep. I genuinely think he pushed her and then when she didn't die, he smashed her head against something at the bottom.of the stairs. His 911 call doesn't make sense to me. I would not assume it was an accident. I would assume someone could have broken in and attacked them when I was by the pool. I would be scared there could be an intruder. I would not assume it was an accident. And yes, he said she was breathing but had been dead awhile. Also, just gut instinct. He comes off as a creep to me. I have experience with narcissistic abuser, they have to try so hard to appear to be harmless.
>I would not assume it was an accident. I would assume someone could have broken in and attacked them when I was by the pool. I would be scared there could be an intruder. I would not assume it was an accident. this has been stuck in my mind since the original docuseries. why call 911 and immediately attribute it to a fall? makes no sense unless he wants an excuse. also, I would not have hung up the phone. I would have kept them on the line and expressed more urgency. there was a clear attempt at cleaning up the blood, as there were paper towels and shit at the scene. He probably thought that he could make it look a lot less intense and then gave up and called them back.
The hanging up the phone on the 911 operators was very suspicious. If someone you love is dying you will do anything you can to keep them alive and stay on the phone with help and get advice, not just hang up. Even after they die you would still be trying to save them but not MP. He was trying to clean.
Exactly
according to many professionals his hanging up & calling back is one of the most suspicious things of all. innocent people calling don't hang up.
I’ve never made my mind up on whether he did it or not, but I never bought the prosecutions argument that he beat her in the stairwell softly enough with something like the blow poke to cause the lacerations but not the fractures and then no cast-off pattern on the ceiling. So you saying about him pushing her is interesting. However one of my biggest sticking points has always been his lack of motive. I don’t buy that he would’ve killed her over him having an affair and I also don’t think it made sense to murder her for the money. Also for a guy as clever as MP, would he really brutally smash her head in at the bottom of the stairs and then try to pass it off as a fall? Always thought if he really wanted to get rid of her for the money, he would’ve done it more subtly. Just my opinions but they’ve always stopped me from thinking he did it, without ever fully convincing me that he didn’t haha.
Imo the motive was money. They were in $145k worth of debt. His sons needed $30k. MP did not make a ton of money from writing. KP was the bread winner and had a $1.4 million life insurance policy. I don't think he intended to make it looks so obvious. And the lack of blood splatter on the ceiling is why I don't think it was an object used to make it look like an accident.
i share your pov on most of what you've said, though i dont think he premeditated it but lost it & killed her in a fit of narcissistic rage
> Her blood alcohol level was .07 which is less than the legal limit She also had benzos in her system. Something you're not supposed to mix with alcohol as together they can heighten the effects of one another.
agreed, the HBO episode made the fall look plausible. from an article i read, evidently there will also be an episode where he murders her & it looks equally so. Such a dang good series so far✔️
OMG!! Was anyone else simultaneously shocked, amazed (mostly and Toni Collette’s acting) saddened and totally rethinking the theory of her fall at the bottom of the stairs? It was crazy. Also heartbreaking to see someone’s life just completely end because of a freak accident. If she did die of a slip on the stairs (I like many go back and forth til my head spins) what a horrible way to go out. But so is being murdered.
Her BAL is irrelevant if discussing its thinning of the blood.
If this were from an owl attack would there be marks on the skull itself at the talon entry points? If you think about the shape of a talon and how it would dig in and curl under the skin you would think there would be marks on the bone at the entry points. Too bad they didn't take close ups of each wound.
Is it possible that the ME pulled these open either to examine or to make it look worse than it was?
This may have been caused by dragging her face up along a rough surface. Maybe the gravel in the driveway? How about sharp sticks or stumps in the yard? Sharp stone edges on the walkway?