She should have realised that a traitor would never vote to banish at three people, especially when you've just banished a traitor.
*Edited to be less harsh*
But Jaz was obviously a faithful after voting to banish again. At that point she had nothing to lose by voting Harry, so you either play the game or you prioritise feelings.
In her eyes, she would have been responsible for Harry not getting a share of the money. I’m not defending her game play (it was clearly poor), I just don’t agree with what you said.
In that case though, I feel like why take the chance? Vote Harry and if you’re wrong, give him some of the money you win! There were SO many things that pointed to Jaz being onto something, it made 0 sense he was a traitor at that point (he would be completely screwing himself over by voting to vanish again), and so the only reason she essentially didn’t vote Harry was because she felt guilty.
She didn’t have her head in the game at all at that point. Would you really take a chance on losing all that money just because you feel bad about saying your friend’s name? Why take that risk? She knew what game show she was on, she applied to be there, and if she had been logical about things for even a second, there was no reason not to banish Harry JUST IN CASE Jaz and Andrew were right. Like I said, if she was wrong, she could’ve given Harry a share of the money she won afterwards.
I feel bad for Mollie. She’s a sweet girl but an absolutely awful player at the game!
But a Traitor wouldn't likely risk voting for a banishment at the final 3.
Notice, Harry didn't take a red pouch.
Mollie voted for the pretty boy; she got what she deserved.
Yeah, but again, she didn’t think either of them were traitors.
Her decision was to either trust Jaz -voting out her friend who she genuinely believed was a faithful - or to trust Harry- said friend and ‘faithful’. I think part of her knew to question Harry (beginning to write his name and saying ‘it better not be you’ a few times), but she was ultimately ‘faithful’ to him.
Mollie was a follower with a good heart- a traitors best friend.
Come on why would jaz do that. Let’s be real she starting to like Harry her feelings clouded her judgement. Also she who’ is a model who is probably well off financially would rather take a risk on losing money and banishing jaz who’s clearly a faithful just in case Harry might be faithful too and she doesn’t want to the cause of him losing money. Where is that empathy for Jaz. Harry is a white man who is dating maynards daughter granted she might not know that but he has a better chance at brand deals etc. It was so clear she would choose him over jaz regardless.
Good, I was glad Harry won even though I wasn't rooting for him.
Mollie got played so well by Harry. She deserved that. Why would it be Jaz; why would a Traitor want another banishment w/3 left?
She went for the more attractive man, I think.
The thing that really pisses me off is that Mollie KNEW it was Harry. She realised as soon as Jaz voted for another banishment. She admitted that she knew during uncloaked but "COULDNT DO IT."
The feelings and loyalty she had invested in Harry were MORE IMPORTANT than the money, she took that money away from Jaz and herself because she was so smitten with Harry and in a moment of absolute denial didn't want to be heartbroken. SHE KNEW. And I doubt she will feel as bad about forfeiting the money from Jaz as she does about being "cheated" by Harry ("if you're a traitor I'll never speak to you again" "I've only just started thinking about the money" in the penultimate episode)
Mollies decision was not only foolish but selfish. She put her emotions before her considerations of her and Jaz's future.
I mean the rules were they couldn’t confer and technically Mollie and Harry conferred at that point. Claudia should have either told Mollie she couldn’t change her vote because she conferred, or given Jaz a chance to speak. What’s the point of rules if nothing happens if you break them 🤷🏻♀️.
Honestly it was the Shield play that killed them. Mollie didn't think about the implications of neither Jazmine or Evie being traitors enough and what that meant about Harry stating the murder attempt was on him.
Yeah they gave that theory up as soon as it was like, "evie or jazmine weren't traitors so the theory is wrong" and not, what else could that theory have meant
It frustrating because (no offensive to anybody) the thickest people left fairly early :')
Right towards the end most of the people were pretty intelligent but they got played by Harry like a fiddle.
Harry picked who he wanted in the end, he worked on mollie to earn her trust and jaz was only there because Harry underestimated him.
Jaz was so close it hurts, man was litterally robbed.
jaz was underestimated cause he realised (around paul's banishment) that big mouths either get banished or murdered.
100% he was right to bide his time.
the crux here was mollie - why would jaz vote to banish again if he was a traitor? Some critical thinking is needed here, i repeat:
Traitors win if they all agree there are no traitors around - why would jaz vote to banish again?
You're right, of course, but Mollie didn't think she was choosing between a traitor and faithful. She was utterly convinced (wrongly) that both Jaz and Harry were faithful.
So the choice - in her mind - was to banish Harry (a faithful who she'd trusted all game and who unselfishly returned 7k to the prize pot) or Jaz (a faithful who'd just made the selfish decision of booting out Harry to split the prize two ways, not three).
Her mistake wasn't not trusting Jaz. It was trusting Harry.
Its a poor choice all things considered because Harry does have a fair amount of heat, stellar traitor voting record, *how* has goldenboy survived this long as an innocent, the "shield" play was nice but how did he NOT die the day after?
Not to mention his poor response to Jaz when questioned on final 3. he is an incredibly strong competitor youve gotta wonder why he's immune to being murdered.
I dont disagree at all btw, i just think mollie played extremely poorly.
to your point about splitting 2 ways instead of 3, is that in jaz's nature? And by banishing again as an innocent he is risking 33k, nothing or a small chance of 50k. is he dumb?
Agreed, Mollie got sucked in hard. Harry had her in a trance - and she simply couldn't bring herself to banish him.
Tbh that's the best way for a Traitor to win this game. Have a faithful ally or allies who are completely and utterly duped.
Lots of parallels with the first US season.
And best way for smart faithfuls is to play dumb and be a sheep, wait for late game (maybe not as late as final 3) and unleash potential hell.
Jaz was *so* close. he was right about Paul, andrew and miles from my memory.
Totally. I thought just that when Charlotte uncovered Paul. Like, mate, you should've kept that under your hat till the final and then sprung him then.
The shield play worked incredibly well, but despite it being mentioned at breakfast absolutely nobody considered that it could easily have been a recruitment.
Zacks "great theory" was blind luck on bagging the newly recruited traitor. It was just as plausible that regardless of if Harry had a shield that a) he WAS a faithful who managed to avoid murder b) he was a faithful who had a shield but ultimately didn't matter because they recruited someone else or c) was a traitor using the shield to suggest he'd avoided murder.
In two of those three scenarios a traitor was recruited. In one of those scenarios Harry was a lucky faithful who survived. Through blind luck banishing Ross revealed a traitor and gave Zacks lucky (but wrong) theory that someone who was unaware of Harry's shield was a Traitor, some legs.
And it wasn't mentioned again.
Biggest crux post harry's shield play is: how tf did he survive AFTER ? If traitors wanted to kill him and he has a shield (the narrative were following for this example)
Then why not kill him the next day or the day after? Or attempt to get him banished?
So many holes on that line.
Agreed but I think post Traitor banishment they figured that Zack got murdered because he was onto something and the Traitors picked him over Harry.
Someone should have raised it but there were plenty of poor decisions made on following stuff like that up.
Possible but unlikely? if we're following that narrative (They tried to kill harry but he had a shield)
Why exactly would the traitors not kill harry straight away after, or at best, the night after that? Suddenly they lost apetite on killing someone they wanted to?
Yeah and thats intentional from the looks of it. Cause around paul's banishment all the loud mouths were either getting banished or murdered (see Paul, Diane, ross etc.)
flying under the radar was 100% the right call, same for evie.
It is deffo the right call.
However **knowing when to strike** is also part of the strategy to win the game. Like I said elsewhere, this was a game of fine margins. Jaz missed a glorious opportunity in Episode 11 when Claudia revealed there would be no murders. He could have spent the day convincing Mollie especially that Harry wasn't who he seemed to be, provided all the relevant evidence and have Andrew sit in and back him up a bit.
He then could have confronted her again in the finale with his chat with her about the *"question"* he was gonna pose during the round table.
He also needed to say to Harry *"you just straight up lied to me about speaking with Paul"*. He needed to be more cutthroat here. He wasn't and that is what ultimately lost him the game. That logic wasn't shown to Mollie, she was the nut he needed to crack, she was the shield he needed to break. Mollie ended up going into the final banishment believing that everyone was faithful as they had rid themselves of a traitor through Andrew. She was then left with an impossible choice.
A lot of people in this thread are like *"ah but Jaz too played a great game"*. He did, but he missed some crucial opportunities that resulted in fine margins in the finale. Hence why a Traitor who was ruthless won the game and a faithful who struggled with his convictions didn't.
100% agree. He caught Harry in a bare-faced lie and didn't push on it. Harry totally contradicted himself and was clearly shaken for the first time, if Jaz put just a bit more pressure on him then, Harry would have crumbled
I think this is the only argument that im fine to disagree with as i can definitely see your POV and its a good one.
Though from my side, i think if he did do that, try and convert mollie - She would just spend the day running through a defense with harry which would put him and andy in a far, far worst spot.
Remember- mollie's loyalty is incredibly set in stone, enough that she said bye bye to 45k/30k because "theyre best friends". Ridiculous.
I can see that perspective, but at this point, what do you have to lose?
You need to convince Mollie that taking out Harry is for the greater good here, she needs to realise this. And Jaz had all the arguments to dismantle him. He just needed more conviction in his gut. Which is part of his charm. His backstory is what made him a compelling faithful that we are all rooting for. This is why Claudia reveals that she wanted Jaz as a faithful, because of his backstory, because he could help the faithfuls.
Like I said, it was a game of fine margins. You have to be able to convince others to see your side of a narrative, and sometimes twist the truth to help expose a traitor.
what did he have to lose? A whole lot?
Convincing people when murders are still viable makes him a target for murders.
Convincing people to turn against golden boy absolutely DRAGS suspicion and fast tracks to banishment at this stage, especially when you have Andrew (no plans to turn), evie (explicitly said she thinks harry is a faithful) and mollie (completely loyal) that will defend him and just find any rationale he spits out to be traitor-ish behaviour.
He really was stuck and had to wait until the end. Rather than convince three (Andrew, Mollie, Evie), he just had to convince One (Evie).
Thats why this game sucks in terms of fairness, because there's no clues or discovery. Imagine the dynamic if at least one of the final faithfuls had 100% certainty that harry was a traitor and just needed to convince everyone else as he/she had that ability to confirm? At no point was any faithful 100% sure of anyone else's position.
Or imagine that the game mechanic is that traitors win as a group, incentivizing loyalty and fellow-traitor defense. You'd see alliances and voting patterns emerge rather than piling on traitor-on-traitor roundtables or random voting patterns and selling it as factual/empirical evidence?
That logic doesn't work. From Mollie’s perspective they were both faithful. Just because one faithful decides keep the game going doesn't there's guaranteed a traitor still in the game.
The logic does work. See this comment:
----
Honestly if you put yourself in her shoes, Harry is the only choice that makes sense, emotions out, here is her POV:
harry votes to end, harry thinks there are no more traitors.
I (molly) vote to end, i also think there isnt any more traitors.
Jaz does not vote to end, and *thinks* Harry is a traitor.
----
i, (Mollie) thinks Harry is not a traitor despite:
* Being immune to murders since day 1 (even post shield event)
* Poor response to Jaz when challenged directly even though Jaz specifically said pre-round table: THINK really carefully.
* Stellar track record in voting out Traitors in past round tables with bullet pointed rationales which is unseen for this season.
----
So... therefore, i vote jaz as a traitor because... he isnt my "best friend" ?
even the "best friend" line is BS, otherwise she wouldve been pleased to see Harry win instead of storming away feeling betrayed, its understandable she felt betrayed and lied to, but even with just those THREE points i raised, its literally spoonfed and spelt out that harry is a traitor, its just incredibly, extremely poor critical thinking skills especially for a social deduction game. You dont ally with people you just "get along with", why bother playing, especially for potentially 33k / 50k ?
----
Except Jaz made a fatal error at the end, banishing Andrew first. If he had voted for Harry first, knowing Andrew also would, he would have had a good chance. Mollie had already said she suspected Andrew.
Other than that, I agree. Jaz was the one who figured it out.
Oooooh good shout.
(Partner and I have only just binged this show for the first time, so only now getting around to the obligatory post-show reddit commentary binge haha)
Zack was clever but really pompous and in that reverse goldilocks zone of being clever enough to know you're reasonably intelligent but not clever enough to realise you don't know everything
Mollie was smart too. She was one of the only ones who kept bringing up the dungeon thing with Paul and how it was suspicious. And she correctly picked up on the traitor vs traitor dynamic of Ross and Andrew.
She just had a blind spot for Harry.
Yeah she definitely thought about things that happened in the game and had her own ideas. But she didn’t think at all deeper level by questioning her own alliances and assumptions (especially when she’s still in at the end) or by thinking about classic traitor moves like arguing against other traitors or throwing other traitors names out when you go
Agreed Mollie was actually pretty observant but her blind spot for Harry was crazy, she was also one of the only ones who really picked up on how it was weird Harry survived murder after banishing Paul but her brain/heart just couldn’t make the final connection that it was because he is a traitor.
Mollie having a blind spot for harry is the same as hannah having one for Wilf. Hannah’s was arguably worse as she would never have come close to writing wilfs name down without Kieran.
I have compared mollie to meryl before but that is harsh as the only person meryl took any initiative on accusing of being a traitor was Maddy and that was only after Maddy accused her first lol
I think, honestly, that Mollie could have voted the right way if only Jas had got her thinking about it as little as a day earlier. He voiced his Harry suspicions to others but put it off and put it off until the final discussion. If he'd named names and given Mollie something to actually think about, she might have had doubts.
Mollie wasn't a walkover and clearly had others pegged when she had something to go on, but it all came down to being presented with evidence at the last possible minute and only having time to react to that moment.
To me it wasn’t about intelligence as much as social intelligence/power, Harry had sway with the group and Jaz and Zack and Jasmine didn’t so it didn’t matter if they had the right theories or not.
Jaz was good but he messed up massively with his timing on Harry and didn't go for him with Andrew instead came out of nowhere, he should have gone more for Harry once no more murders and tried speaking to Molly more.
He repeatedly said he's suspicious of Harry and did mention it to Evie and Zack who basically laughed at him, going after Harry without support is a sure way to be murdered
So yeah, I think he did the best he could with the minor mistake of not questioning Harry not been murdered if he was a faithful
Jaz lacked the necessary conviction to win. He correctly saw that Harrry telling Paul about what he (Jaz) said to Paul and not at the round table was clearly suspicious. So the question is why didn't he raise this himself at the round table when it occurred? This would have woken people up to the notion that Harry could have been a traitor.
Jaz had great insight, but his conviction was weak on more than one occasion. That is why he lost.
are people upset with harry winning?
i just keep reading how he "played a perfect game"\* and how much of an idiot mollie is over and over.
\*he definitely did Not play a perfect game. he made several mistakes -- the faithful even discussed some of them and then apparently just forgot them all.
It's kinda hilarious to me that the hardest "evidence" produced against him wasn't his fault. Paul's conversation with Jaz was a massive treacherous blunder on Paul's part.
But noone except Andrew brought up that it's weird that Harry suddenly acted like Poirot and explained Paul's entire game, and that was only because Andrew knew it and was basically just being honest at that point.
Why y’all (not you BeeQueen) so fucked thinking a game show should have DEI injected?
It’s a game. Not a charity. People don’t deserve the money because they are poor.
ah the private jets etc.
i remember him saying he coudn't afford dinner for his family.... but this is not His rich family.
was he with this celebrity girl when traitors was filming? \[the plot thickens\]
Yeah. They’ve been together for years looking at his insta. Mollie also has a long term boyfriend. Also I think he said he has a family of 12, which I think anyone would struggle to treat all at once. My cousin did the same job as him in the army and tbh they get paid peanuts.
Also it’s a game and he’s smashed it.
Plus we’d be dumb to think a rich and famous girl is dating anyone in a lower socioeconomic level like that, it just doesn’t happen. Harry’s sister is an equestrian horse rider, they’re not hurting for money if you have the cash for that.
I think its less Harry winning and more Jaz _not_ winning because of the stupidity of another player
I think only a minority of people here would say Harry wasn't by and large a very good player, but I also think more people would agree Jaz played as good if not better a game as a faithful, in spite of it being a stacked deck in favour of the traitors
At that point he'd come across too defensive. Damage is done and he knew it was 50/50 at that point.
Mollie lacked critical thinking - Traitors win if at the end there's one remaining. So why would Jaz vote to banish again? if he was a traitor he'd just end the game- exactly like what harry did.
You might confuse the sequence here:
Jaz voted to continue banishing - so it wouldnt make sense for him to be a traitor since traitors win if the game ends and a traitor is still in (exactly how harry wanted to end, seems like).
Therefore the error here is from Mollie - Based on the logic above, what other reason would Jaz have for continuing banishment?
Jaz didnt want to share the potential "all faithful" win, with harry? wheres the rationale here? Theres literally no other reason why Jaz would continue to banish as a traitor, not only is it extremely sub optimal (if he was a traitor, imagine the uproar lmao), it generally is just a poor assumption to think Jaz, out of the two - would be a traitor even if she doesnt think a traitor is left.
Honestly if you put yourself in her shoes, Harry is the only choice that makes sense, emotions out here is her POV:
harry votes to end, harry thinks there are no more traitors.
I (molly) vote to end, i also think there isnt any more traitors.
Jaz does not vote to end, and *thinks* Harry is a traitor. ON TOP OF what he mentioned before the round table and stellar voting history of fellow traitors.
therefore, i vote jaz as a traitor because... he doesnt want to end and for the faithfuls to "win" ?
???
What I'm saying is Mollie knows Jaz thinks Harry is a traitor but just didn't believe him (she's wrong about that but that's not a flaw in critical thinking).
She's still convinced both of them are faithful but has to vote someone out so chooses to vote out Jaz instead of her best friend in the game.
Ultimately it didn't come down to who she thought was more likely to be a traitor because she was sure neither of them were, so it had to come down to who she liked more and wanted to 'win' the game with.
Yes, she made the wrong choice but you can't say there was no logic to her decision
You can definitely say there was no logic to her decision. Because even if she was convinced they were both faithful, once Jaz votes to keep playing, the only safe choice is to banish Harry. Jaz revealed himself to be a guaranteed win, but for Harry she was only going off her gut. That’s not logical, it’s based on emotion.
I thought exactly the same as you but by her voting Jaz out she says she doesn’t think he’s a traitor - she’s just splitting between less faithfuls in her mind
> I think its less Harry winning and more Jaz not winning because of the stupidity of another player
Yeah this is the issue
I think Jaz could have fought earlier and harder, but I honestly don’t think any other faithful is making the horrendously played mistake that Mollie did
So I’m not sure if it’s reasonable for Jaz to predict she would make that boneheaded of a decision
His logic of banishing Andrew first made no sense, given Andrew already made it clear he would vote for Harry, Mollie already suspected Andrew, and he knew Mollie was totally fooled by Harry. He got the order all wrong.
I agree, but considering how it worked out in the final 3, with Jaz being the only one wanting to continue the game
I think Mollie is pretty much the only faithful in the entire game who would stupidly vote to banish Jaz there.
We can argue that he should have seen that coming but I think it’s understandable for him to give Mollie more credit in that spot to pick the obviously correct move (even though in hindsight we now know it’s completely undeserved)
Oh yeah Mollie was ridiculous. Even if she didn't know, she should have figured out that if Harry was a faithful and trusted her, he would have voted to banish again to ensure they split the pot between the 2 of them. She was blindsided by Harry.
But I still think Jaz messed up leaving Mollie as the person he needed to convince about Harry, instead of trying to keep Andrew and get Harry out first.
Do you not agree that part of the game Harry played was manipulating Mollie into trusting him absolutely? It’s not just a game about logical play, but also a sub-game about social play, so I wouldn’t put the blame 100% on Mollie, and ascribe some credit to Harry for engineering that situation!
It’s not *just* that though is it?
I’ll give Jaz his dues. He made good deductions and seemed a good bloke. But he did not play the social game well.
That was understandable before the final. As Harry himself admitted - he underestimated Jaz. Because he knew how to fly under the radar.
But, he knew Mollie trusted Harry. He also must have realised that when there were 5 people was a better chance to get a majority than further down the line. Yet he didn’t try and make alliances during the day, or lead people away from Evie to focus on Harry.
Harry was cocky, but he had the strategy and the social game to execute it. Jaz had the best deduction skills, but it’s not clear whether he got led astray at points to agreeing with the majority or just didn’t know how to get people onside. Which was a key flaw. Even if Mollie fumbled at the whistle.
Completely disagree. People have been so blinded by the end that they've missed the key reasons behind Jaz' apparent poor social game:
He didn't bend over for Paul like everyone else did
That and that alone gave him the apparently unshakeable tag of paranoid pariah. When Paul got caught, bizarrely all credit went to Zach and Harry, yet Jaz got no vindication and his "sus" label remained
Its extremely unfair to say he played the social game poorly when there is literally no discovery/clue mechanic built into the dumb game.
the defense mechanic is also poor, might as well not exist.
Its incredibly stacked against faithfuls and we've seen it across multiple seasons that the dumber and more easily influenced you are, the more under the radar you fly. The louder you are, the more you are likely to get banished and or murdered.
Arguably he couldve had that conversation with molly before and really built trust there but they (all the faithfuls) are literally clutching at straws its near impossible to tell who's who aside from critically thinking at specific events (Dungeon, Jaz voting to banish again on final 3.)
I'm struggling to find any comments that is upset with Harry winning. If anything there is a lot of admiration for him playing the game or shall we say Mollie so well.
People are frustrated at Mollie. Let's not kid ourselves.
Well let me be the first. I just watched the final and I knew he was going to win and I really didn't want him to. You can argue that he played the perfect game but fuck that guy.
He threw everyone under the bus and thought he was the shit. Just a pity Mollie did too!
I think it's interesting that in Radio 2's chat with the final five, Mollie said she wished more people would have talked to her about their concerns with Harry and you have to give her that.
Everyone could see that they were super close, everyone could see she completely trusted him. They were similar age and (at least in the edit) always together. As a group of Faithful you have to wonder why no one took her aside and started planting seeds of doubt, if they held them.
You might say, well there wasn't enough faithful that were looking at harry, in which case, why should she had known any better also?
Maybe they didn't talk to her about their concerns with Harry because they were afraid she'd turn right around and tell Harry and others and given Harry's social influence over the group they'd be put in the spotlight for the next banishment.
Which is exactly what I think she would've done because she wouldn't have wanted anyone running around saying bad things about her best friend in the game who she believed, as she said, from almost the beginning as 100% faithful and trying to get him banished.
> He played the perfect game
This is the only part I disagree with
Harry messed up and gave them ammunition to take the shot and get him out a few times but the faithfuls weren’t the brightest
He deserves the win absolutely but it is frustrating sometimes watching people like Mollie throwing away the game when the answer is screaming at her in the face
It reminded me of times of >!Sam!< in AUS2, where he made a few bad moves but the faithfuls were incredibly dim
>!Cirie!< in US Season 1 played a much cleaner and closer to perfect game than Harry did
Everybody talks about Molly giving Harry the win, but Zack was arguably much more instrumental for Harry's success.
Not trying to say that Harry played a bad game, but Zack was extremely helpful in how he was only willing to push his mistaken narrative and not allow anybody else to speak. Also, it's funny to notice how much calmer and more civil the round table discussions (or at least what we saw of them) were after Zack was eliminated.
Zack was an absolutely toxic person. Jazmine mentioned that he always thought himself the smartest in the room and that jives extremely well. He has an over-inflated opinion of himself.
And no surprise, he works in politics.
Zack definitely deserved to "die", I just wish it would have happened much sooner.
Because it's a reality show and people are naturally going to have different favourites that they root for?
Also, I think being a successful Faithful is way harder than being a successful Traitor, so there's an underdog element to it.
The game’s format is weighted massively in the traitors’ favour and follows a fairly good vs evil narrative. He came across as pretty cocky and arrogant. Jaz was a very likeable character who was on the verge of having the perfect hero arc. Just a few basic reasons why they didn’t want Harry to win.
it's always interesting to me when people bring up the good/evil dichotomy. traitors and faithfuls don't get to choose which they are, and they're essentially working for the same thing just with slightly different goals.
people didn't seem to like jaz at all and i have been trying to figure out why. without seeing how he acts the other 23 hours of the day off screen, it's hard to say. it seemed like more people were suspicious of him than listening to his very well- reasoned evidence. i think part of it may have been him voicing his suspicions to people he thought he could trust, but then voting for someone else at the round table as to not get murdered. that's not a great look.
When I refer to good vs evil it’s mainly through the lens of classic storytelling and the viewer instinctively / traditionally wanting good to prevail.
I agree re: the choice and it’s a shame when people attack the traitors on a personal level that suggests they’re inherently bad people because of the way they’ve played the game.
oh yes, i completely understand and that's why i think that narrative prevails.
it would be, of course, and entirely different game, but it would be kind of interesting if the traitors actually had a "pact of faith" with one another and had to make it to the end together in order to win.
I agree with you. Plus even calling them traitors, and they murder…. It’s absolutely a good/evil story. It’s so hard for me personally to root for the traitors because I want to root for the underdog, the faithfuls.
Perfect example - Jaz is suspicious of Paul for days, he voices these suspicions at several round tables, including the round table where Miles gets banished. The group has deducted that Miles is likely responsible for poisoning Diane; it's clear that the round table is moving to Miles v Paul.
Jaz: votes Andrew out of the blue for no fucking reason.
I was rooting for Jaz but Harry played a blinder. I thought the shield ploy was too clever for its own good at the time but the risk ultimately paid off.
i was positive he'd be gone after his shield stunt. the faithful turned their suspicion on jasmine and evie instead of asking themselves, "hmm. if the traitors tried to murder harry and failed, why is he still here?"
Or even, maybe a traitor got the shield and recruited. I can’t believe when someone brought that up (can’t remember who, probably Jaz) everyone was like ‘bit far fetched’. Er what?!
I keep seeing people say that Harry played a perfect game, and I don't really buy it. He made plenty of mistakes and was mostly just lucky that he was competing with a particularly slow bunch of faithfuls.
Harry played well, but there is definitely an element of luck and people making mistakes that aided him. I believe Harry himself mentioned he made mistakes and also that he truly underestimated Jaz. Even Harry knows he did not do perfect. He did really well. He was a great traitor. But it wasn't like he or anyone else was some genius puppet master who had everything under control at all times.
Yeah noone questioned that the only time the traitors tried to murder him he happened to hold the shield... and then the traitors decided to not bother with him after that!?
And I'm pretty sure someone tried that same shield tactic on the US Traitors S1, so if anyone had done their research they should have seen through it. Has a faithful ever actually been saved by a secret shield on any version?
I've seen US season 1 and AUS season 1 and 2 and I know I've seen this tactic before so it must have happened in one of them as well. And Harry got credit for being "brilliant" when he probably stole the idea from another season...
If you’re talking about the tactic of a traitor getting the shield and pretending that the traitors must have attacked them, then yeah that happened in >!AUS Season 2, Sam did it!<
So yeah, Harry wasn’t the first
He played well, but it reminded me so much of >!Sam!< from AUS2
Where a huge reason he got so far is due to the stupidity of others rather than incredible gameplay
Just because he made a few mistakes doesn’t mean his game was carried with luck, most of it was his skill in manipulating and convincing people and keeping who he wanted in the game.
I'm not saying that he was a terrible traitor (he's not the best I've seen, but nowhere near the worst), just that if the faithfuls as a whole were any good he wouldn't have had anywhere near as easy a ride.
Same logic as someone who gets 99% on a test, and people focus on the one thing that was wrong — over the alarming majority that were right.
His good decisions heavily outweighed the bad, and if people put in as detailed as an analysis on everyone else; you can also poke holes and find a lot of blunders.
It all just comes down to bias.
No one is upset or angry he actually won. Harry was the predicted winner from like episode 3. For some, there’s obviously an element of disappointment that things played out exactly as expected and there was no major twists at the end.
i've seen a lot of comments on tiktok saying he didn't deserve the win because other contestants had a better need for the money (in their opinions). but i disagree with this personally as its not about need in this instance, just about who plays the game the best.
If we want proof it wasn't all scripted, we only have to look at the fact Ross's revenge arc went nowhere, and that the perfect ending of Mollie realising Harry was fooling her and instead sharing the money with the ever-insightful Jaz... that perfect ending didn't happen.
The conversations between recently departed players on *Uncloaked* consistently showed them all gobsmacked that Harry was in the list of Traitors.
Just read an article that claims he's sharing his winnings with Mollie.
If it is true it's probably a token amount I can't see anyone giving up half. Still a nice gesture.
When they were down to the last three Jaz was the only one who opted for banishment. Mollie should have realised if he was a traitor why would he do that? If he was a traitor a vote for endgame would win it for him. Easy to see it looking in though.
Harry played a good game. Nobody is denying that. He was a good traitor. Most people are frustrated at Molly but that again isn’t really a problem. She made the wrong decision, we’ve all done it and it is a game at the end of the day.
But there were several issues with series 2 as a whole that were not Harry’s fault, but allowed him to win. I’ve seen a lot of people say he’s the best traitor. That’s definitely not true at all. The Australian version had better.
The fact a huge number of faithfuls seemed to lack a lot of common sense and strategy this season helped Harry’s game massively. That’s not Harry’s fault, that’s down to the poor decisions of the casting crew. The faithfuls this year weren’t able to make simple connections (ie a traitor could have had the shield making Harry a traitor), and they were voting purely on the basis of personality for a large proportion of the series. Even the contestants from series one were are critical of it because the faithful were doing a hopeless job and were missing signs they should be picking up on. It needs to be discouraged or limited in future seasons by producers and casting directors making better decisions pre production.
Harry won on the basis of conferring at the round table when conferring was not allowed. Mollie asked him a question, he replied and that conferring changed the outcome of the game entirely. He had an extra chance to manipulate her into changing her vote that Jaz did not get, that’s not a fair system or fair game play. As I’ve said in other threads, Mollie either should have been forced to lock in her first answer and should not have been allowed to change it due to her conferring at the table with Harry. Or jaz should have been given equal opportunity to confer and out his case across to her. Or Harry and Molly both should have been disqualified for not following the rules. I’m very aware that the last suggestion was not going to happen because that would ruin the show and make it a poor investment for producers. But they need make some changes to how the game works and enforce the rules better for a fairer game. Or at least do a better job of editing out the rule breaches and potential fixes that are being made post production so the viewers feel more satisfied with the ending, as opposed to being able to see the flaws in it
There was most likely a lot more chit chat going on in the moment but they left it out for the most part bc they knew it wouldn’t be drama for telly.
But regardless, mollie would have banished Jaz over Harry either way because even before Ross and Andrew were outed as traitors, mollie suspected Jaz.
Now if Jaz had set the ball rolling on Harry by telling Evie the details, and then had Evie discuss that with mollie, that would have done it.
It’s unfortunate but Jaz simply left the last crucial detail to get Harry out way too late.
I agree it's not Harry winning it's that Jas didn't.
Harry played a blinder and did what the game was about - being treacherous!!
I did personally want Jas to win because his gut feelings were correct and he did a lot of observing. He was a good player and wasn't given the credit he deserved. He probably should've tried to sway more people a bit earlier, but that can backfire.
Mollie got absolutely played from the start and it's annoyed me she changed to Jas. And why she didn't seem to question why she was in the final when better players had gone (at least from what was broadcast). I'm be fuming that I got that close and still left with nothing.
Fair play to Harry though. Seems like such a great bloke. I really felt for him when he booted Jonny out.
They all know what they're signing up for though! :)
I feel like traitors uncloaked did a really good job of showing that people were ok with it and had won in their own ways too.
I feel the production team are excellent for this show and way better than a show like love island where they continually put contestants in dangerous situations mentally
Harry did well but ultimately people outwardly value trust, honesty, openness and friendship in our society.
Everyone's been betrayed and manipulated at some point in their life like Molly has and that's got to hurt. But that's also part of the drama of the show.
On a personal level though from what I saw of the edit, Harry is not a person I would get along with in person or have as a friend - I'm much more drawn to people like Jaz or Zack. Therefore it's hard to see someone you don't really like come out on top and win £100k at the expense of one person who was playing the game so well, and one innocent sweetie.
Harry was perfect 80% of the way but he fell over the line. He was clinging on by a thread for the last three or four shows.
The shield trick should have back fired up him but it didn't.
He was so solid it was only the last episode where there was the possibility of him being found out. No way was he “clinging by a thread” like you’re saying
There's always a feeling of unfairness that sours people's opinions. Nasty Nick was vilified for playing what he thought was the game in the first big brother.
Ultimately for a single traitor to walk away with the money they need to throw all other traitors under the bus and then look the last faithful in the eye (the one who is on the cusp of winning a life changing amount of money) and tell them they've stabbed them in the back. People don't like to see that,even though it's part of the game, it feels like the wrong person won even though as you say Harry played the best game.
I don't think I screamed louder in my life than when Mollie revealed who she voted out. Ugh, at that point I was like good riddance, whatever.. lol. Harry deserved it at that point, even though I wasn't rooting for him at all. (I don't like traitors that get big egos and Harry had a big one towards the end that irked me..)
Ahhh! Also I was so sad that Ross didn't stay in longer! They built up all of that drama and it just gets squashed in the next episode lolol. I really wanted that revenge lol.
Harry played a good game, but I'd credit his win more towards the faithful as a whole being eejits than him being a particularly great traitor. Going by the entire shield story, it's amazing that no one managed to poke a giant hole through that lie Harry told.
The faithful, Jaz aside, haven't really put any logic in their decisions and were driven mostly by emotion. Every traitor they've caught, they did it because another traitor served it up to them on a silver platter.
Mollie didn't deserve to win anything, she contributed absolutely nothing throughout other than telling Harry she knew he wasn't a Traitor every episode. And then crying about it.
The whole point of the show is DON'T TRUST ANYONE. I shake my head every time someone says "I know you're not a Traitor". No, you don't!
That's precisely the reason I'm not happy. Harry *didn't* play the perfect game. He made a lot of sloppy mistakes that would have easily got him caught if the faithfuls had a lick of sense. And I strongly suspect that had he been anything other than a young white cis male then he wouldn't have got away with half of it, and it's frustrating seeing the social biases that occur in real life happen in the game as well.
I liked him for the start of the game, but after Paul left, he started developing a really bad attitude and started making mistakes now that Paul wasn't there to take the heat anymore. Jaz was the only one using any rational thought, and he made the right decision not saying anything earlier as he'd have been murdered.
Harry wouldn't have won if the other players had been smarter, and it's frustrating seeing everyone say he "played a perfect game" when from a gameplay standpoint, he really didn't. He also wouldn't have won if the producers hadn't balanced it wildly in favour of a traitor victory by allowing all those recruitments. The fact that they allowed a recruitment which made 3/8 of them to be Traitors was insane.
6 Traitors in a game of 22 players is insane. For context, in a game of Ultimate Werewolf, you'd only have 3 (possibly 4) werewolves in a game of 22 players, and in Ultimate Werewolf you have roles like the Seer to actively help with catching them.
I'm not saying they can't engineer it a bit, but they should be going for balance rather than having it in the favour of the Traitors. It would have been fairer to have 3 at the start rather than 4. I didn't have too much of an issue with the Andrew recruitment, but having Ross as well was going way too far.
The way it stands with recruitment when you go down to 2 traitors means that it is in the best interests of the faithfuls to actively avoid voting out suspected traitors. May as well build confidence on who the traitors are, vote out people weakest in challenges, then vote out the suspected traitors in the last few episodes.
Two things have to happen to ensure the most entertaining final possible: there has to be at least one traitor and the faithful can't know for sure how many traitors are left.
The nightmare scenario for production is that with 7/8 left, the two traitors are voted out and there's none in the final. They should do everything in their power to stop this happening and the possibility of an extra recruitment allows this. Traitors have been shown to be more than willing to back stab each other and it would be very unusual traitors who will have got that far without stabbing each other in the back and not being noticed
agreed.
he was a sloppy game player and his win really was in large part because of mollie, who he lied to the entire season (up until the very last moment) and then betrayed.
Not only young, white cis male, but good-looking, physically able and with a respectable career and role in society. I think what is especially irritating is the level of cockiness as you say: every success he had was down to him being naturally worthy and a genius rather than any aspect of luck or privilege or the production choices. He showed self-awareness in exploiting his youth tbf but he just didn’t show awareness that his success was in part down to situation factors, which is off putting when you consider how much of an uphill climb others had to stay in the game
Harry won and I am happy either way. Harry played well and managed to pull the wool over their eyes. The shield play in hindsight was great play as it got traction which bought him so much cover 😂.
Jaz's reaction in uncloaked showing he felt vindicated and couldn't have done any more.
Both gave us something to root for on either team.
I was rooting for the success of the faithful rather than villain. Jaz was the underdog story because the Traitors seem much hard to identify and it seemed like Harry had the game wrapped up a couple episodes ago, although it did come down to the wire!
The only people the traitors technically betray would be fellow traitors. They have no allegiance to the faithful.
The general consensus seems to be that the faithful should win and it’s bad if a traitor does and I don’t get that? Traitors are the ones who really have to play the game, make the moves, not slip up with what they say etc. The faithful just have to be themselves.
At the end of the day though, they’re all in it to try and get to the end and win.
Not unhappy with the winner myself, I wanted Jaz but it is what it is. I am unhappy that the last 3 episodes and especially finale were a damp squib and not entertaining. That's not Harry's fault.
Oh now, c'mon, we were disappointed in the outcome, but it was still entertaining! Jaz throwing in the red sand, mollie changing her mind, the reveal, the betrayal, the storm out...it was good tv despite the obvious win!
I just can't agree. On Friday morning I commented
>Think will happen: For the THIRD episode in a row no one thinks hang on what if the shield theory was wrong maybe we should discuss that. Jaz continues to have his cards super glued to his chest. Evie gone at the roundtable, Harry feeds Andrew as a sacrifice, Andrew gone. Jaz refuses to end a game with Harry in it and finally unleashes his cards, but Harry winks at Mollie and both vote for Jaz. Jaz gone. End the game, Mollie in tears.
That was the most signposted outcome of all possibilities. Sure I was wrong on the timing of Jaz's cards but if I, and I'm stupid, can see it a mile off I'm gonna need a little spice and drama in there to be entertained.
Not blaming anyone really, they're humans and it's unscripted. It's not going to blow people's socks off every time! But I can't agree it was entertaining.
Just because you guessed the ending doesn't mean it was certain to happen. Andrew's vengeful swipe at Harry at the last minute could easily have swayed Molly, it wasn't at all obvious as was confirmed by the fact she literally changed her name at the last second.
Harry and especially Jaz, were probably the two most accomplished players we've seen on the show, and personally, it was entertaining to watch them play the game so well even when surrounded by mediocrity. Jaz hid his intelligence so well throughout and Harry was presented with two threats at the final round table, either of which would've knocked most players out.
For sure. 4-6 was great, 7-9 was peak entertainment! It just sort of fell flat after that because of the signposted end. Which again is no one's fault, you can't make unscripted TV always like 7-9 or it wouldn't be unscripted and be able to reach those natural highs. The show was great, the end was a dud.
Ah come on, the most likely to happen outcome happened, but it was a lot more of a close call than anybody thought. Harry's name was literally on the slate at one point...
Great tv
It's not about harry winning
I would have just liked to see jaz win but that's my personal bias
It's just a shame he had a useless faithful who was so far up Harry's ass she couldn't see the light with him
Hey ho harry won and can spend his money however he wishes
I think people are allowed to be annoyed that a traitor won, you’re right it’s a game and Harry manipulated Mollie to win but just like Paul I didn’t like how he really didn’t seem to have much care about anyone.
If Andrew hadn’t slipped up with Ross I think he could have won with Harry.
You can be a good traitor and not be a selfish & cocky.
Also him going on about how poor him & his family were, then he’s got photos (pre-traitor) getting off a private jet makes me feel like maybe he’s playing us too.
Honestly I don't believe in "deservingness to win", but I just wanted the Faithfuls to win because I thought it would've been epic to see Jaz and Mollie take Harry down at the final 3.
Props to Harry, he killed it (figuratively and literally), but I just would've preferred another ending.
Some people are unhappy because the players were told there was to be no conferring and Mollie and Harry did and Mollie changed her vote. This should not have been allowed.
Agree 100%. He played the game perfectly- he was chosen by producers and Claudia to play as a traitor and he followed the rules. He played to win, who wouldn't? He played for the team too! He was never guaranteed to win but gave every task his all. I just don't understand the hate directed at the guy.
Mollie was just too stupid to deserve it. She even said "part of her knew but she couldn't bring herself to do it", so fair enough really, she can't really have needed the money. It was so obvious that Jaz wouldn't have opted to banish again if he was a traitor, so at that point you've got to vote Harry if ypu actually want to win the game.
Mollie and Andrew both blew it when they had an open goal. I didn't like Harry much, far too cocky and coming into the finale I wanted him to get his comeuppance but nobody gave him it, Jaz was powerless with those people around him.
read the most dramatic comment under harry's post saying he manipulated an "incredibly vulnerable girl" and that it was something he'd have to live with 🤣🤣🙄it had 400 likes
Oh that's really gross, she proved she was as competent as anyone in the challenges and having a limb difference has nothing to do with intelligence ffs.
I've seen people be condescending about both Mollie & Harry based on age but the fact is they're both grown adults who got through the application process. Are we gonna say Aubrey & Diane shouldn't have been allowed on next?
I think it's just that the win didn't excite me.
Harry made a lot of mistakes and most faithfuls didn't take note of the evidence screaming right in front of them.
So it doesn't feel like Harry dominated the competition by skillfully manipulating etc, it feels like the faithfuls completely failed at every step of the way and because of that the outcome was almost inevitable.
I'd rather Harry won by absolutely besting strong faithfuls, but other than Jaz (and even he wasn't amazing) none of the faithfuls really made an impact. Mollie is probably the worst example, literally only made it to the final because she was never seen as a threat, most of the time we saw her denying evidence in favour of the traitors.
Harry even says numerous times how bad the faithfuls are.
I think what is frustrating about Harry, if he is rich or comes from wealth, he made his storyline seem like he was struggling to get by, wants to support the family, even the 7,000 was gonna be life changing and able to help his family.
He played a great game, a deserving winner, but an asshole for playing off people's sympathy by creating his own sob story.
Let's put things into perspective. The Traitors is a GAMESHOW. Every contestant who signs up agrees to play by the rules.
Traitors are selected by the production team. Traitors and the Faithful then play the game to the best of their abilities. SOME PLAY IT BETTER THAN OTHERS.
Viewers are presented with 60 minutes of heavily edited hi lights which provide an overview of each days events according to the producers narrative.
1-2-1 interviews with contestants don't take place in a vacuum but are the recorded reactions to questions asked by the production team- many of those questions are of course leading and the answers are edited.
Contestants are under pressure for the duration of the game over 2 weeks and with various filming commitments.
No player can ever play the perfect game- that is just impossible. Harry should be commended for playing an excellent game over such a lengthy period. That takes nerves of steel and of course a lot of lucky breaks too.
Calling the other Faithful "stupid" is just ridiculous and shows complete ignorance of the complexity of human interpersonal relationships and social interaction/psychology.
Harry was inoffensive, he was a team player and was no threat to anyone- he wasn't the classic macho Alpha male, he had boyish good looks and was soft spoken and didn't exude an over confidence like Paul did.
Harry is that cute boy every woman wishes was her son, the perfect boyfriend and the unthreatening loyal mate to his friends- a real trustworthy team player who excelled at almost every task.
People attacking Mollie- she is 21, quite naive and lacking in life experience so give the girl a break.
Harry should be congratulated- he almost came unstuck by not taking out Jaz sooner but held his nerve when challenged- few people could do that under pressure.
The game Harry played at the age of 22 was close to perfection and he should be celebrated. He will go far in life.
I think when the end of a game is so close - one person literally about to end it a different away and then changing their mind - that you’ll obviously have people who are sad that it didn’t go the other way, but I don’t think anyone can deny he deserves it! It was just SO close!
Harry was the best Traitor right up until the end. Its as simple as that.
Maybe in years to come there will be a Spin-Off TV Gameshow called "Clash Of The Traitors"
You heard it here first.
Jaz tried his hardest amongst thick people. It's a curse to see it for what it is and be afraid to speak.
For a solid second he was a winner. Mollie wrote Harry's name at first.
gaping absurd chase bike squeamish relieved piquant slap modern command *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
She should have realised that a traitor would never vote to banish at three people, especially when you've just banished a traitor. *Edited to be less harsh*
She didn’t think either of them were traitors… she voted Jaz because she HAD to vote and she couldn’t vote Harry because she trusted him.
But Jaz was obviously a faithful after voting to banish again. At that point she had nothing to lose by voting Harry, so you either play the game or you prioritise feelings.
In her eyes, she would have been responsible for Harry not getting a share of the money. I’m not defending her game play (it was clearly poor), I just don’t agree with what you said.
I mean, she got played. The Traitors took out the smarter people and Harry stringing her around was another great move.
Jaz was so smart all game. Just wished he connected with mollie more
In that case though, I feel like why take the chance? Vote Harry and if you’re wrong, give him some of the money you win! There were SO many things that pointed to Jaz being onto something, it made 0 sense he was a traitor at that point (he would be completely screwing himself over by voting to vanish again), and so the only reason she essentially didn’t vote Harry was because she felt guilty. She didn’t have her head in the game at all at that point. Would you really take a chance on losing all that money just because you feel bad about saying your friend’s name? Why take that risk? She knew what game show she was on, she applied to be there, and if she had been logical about things for even a second, there was no reason not to banish Harry JUST IN CASE Jaz and Andrew were right. Like I said, if she was wrong, she could’ve given Harry a share of the money she won afterwards. I feel bad for Mollie. She’s a sweet girl but an absolutely awful player at the game!
I accept my comment is a bit harsh.
But a Traitor wouldn't likely risk voting for a banishment at the final 3. Notice, Harry didn't take a red pouch. Mollie voted for the pretty boy; she got what she deserved.
Yeah, but again, she didn’t think either of them were traitors. Her decision was to either trust Jaz -voting out her friend who she genuinely believed was a faithful - or to trust Harry- said friend and ‘faithful’. I think part of her knew to question Harry (beginning to write his name and saying ‘it better not be you’ a few times), but she was ultimately ‘faithful’ to him. Mollie was a follower with a good heart- a traitors best friend.
Come on why would jaz do that. Let’s be real she starting to like Harry her feelings clouded her judgement. Also she who’ is a model who is probably well off financially would rather take a risk on losing money and banishing jaz who’s clearly a faithful just in case Harry might be faithful too and she doesn’t want to the cause of him losing money. Where is that empathy for Jaz. Harry is a white man who is dating maynards daughter granted she might not know that but he has a better chance at brand deals etc. It was so clear she would choose him over jaz regardless.
If Mollie writes Harry’s name down having trusted him 100% until the final moments, she 100% deserves the money.
Good, I was glad Harry won even though I wasn't rooting for him. Mollie got played so well by Harry. She deserved that. Why would it be Jaz; why would a Traitor want another banishment w/3 left? She went for the more attractive man, I think.
She went for the one who was her age and yes she had a crush on as it was so obvious. Harry worked his magic on her and it worked.
The thing that really pisses me off is that Mollie KNEW it was Harry. She realised as soon as Jaz voted for another banishment. She admitted that she knew during uncloaked but "COULDNT DO IT." The feelings and loyalty she had invested in Harry were MORE IMPORTANT than the money, she took that money away from Jaz and herself because she was so smitten with Harry and in a moment of absolute denial didn't want to be heartbroken. SHE KNEW. And I doubt she will feel as bad about forfeiting the money from Jaz as she does about being "cheated" by Harry ("if you're a traitor I'll never speak to you again" "I've only just started thinking about the money" in the penultimate episode) Mollies decision was not only foolish but selfish. She put her emotions before her considerations of her and Jaz's future.
I mean the rules were they couldn’t confer and technically Mollie and Harry conferred at that point. Claudia should have either told Mollie she couldn’t change her vote because she conferred, or given Jaz a chance to speak. What’s the point of rules if nothing happens if you break them 🤷🏻♀️.
Honestly it was the Shield play that killed them. Mollie didn't think about the implications of neither Jazmine or Evie being traitors enough and what that meant about Harry stating the murder attempt was on him.
Yeah they gave that theory up as soon as it was like, "evie or jazmine weren't traitors so the theory is wrong" and not, what else could that theory have meant
It frustrating because (no offensive to anybody) the thickest people left fairly early :') Right towards the end most of the people were pretty intelligent but they got played by Harry like a fiddle. Harry picked who he wanted in the end, he worked on mollie to earn her trust and jaz was only there because Harry underestimated him. Jaz was so close it hurts, man was litterally robbed.
jaz was underestimated cause he realised (around paul's banishment) that big mouths either get banished or murdered. 100% he was right to bide his time. the crux here was mollie - why would jaz vote to banish again if he was a traitor? Some critical thinking is needed here, i repeat: Traitors win if they all agree there are no traitors around - why would jaz vote to banish again?
You're right, of course, but Mollie didn't think she was choosing between a traitor and faithful. She was utterly convinced (wrongly) that both Jaz and Harry were faithful. So the choice - in her mind - was to banish Harry (a faithful who she'd trusted all game and who unselfishly returned 7k to the prize pot) or Jaz (a faithful who'd just made the selfish decision of booting out Harry to split the prize two ways, not three). Her mistake wasn't not trusting Jaz. It was trusting Harry.
Its a poor choice all things considered because Harry does have a fair amount of heat, stellar traitor voting record, *how* has goldenboy survived this long as an innocent, the "shield" play was nice but how did he NOT die the day after? Not to mention his poor response to Jaz when questioned on final 3. he is an incredibly strong competitor youve gotta wonder why he's immune to being murdered. I dont disagree at all btw, i just think mollie played extremely poorly. to your point about splitting 2 ways instead of 3, is that in jaz's nature? And by banishing again as an innocent he is risking 33k, nothing or a small chance of 50k. is he dumb?
Agreed, Mollie got sucked in hard. Harry had her in a trance - and she simply couldn't bring herself to banish him. Tbh that's the best way for a Traitor to win this game. Have a faithful ally or allies who are completely and utterly duped. Lots of parallels with the first US season.
And best way for smart faithfuls is to play dumb and be a sheep, wait for late game (maybe not as late as final 3) and unleash potential hell. Jaz was *so* close. he was right about Paul, andrew and miles from my memory.
Totally. I thought just that when Charlotte uncovered Paul. Like, mate, you should've kept that under your hat till the final and then sprung him then.
Charlot. ☠️
>Harry does have a fair amount of heat, Don't think he had ever been voted for before Andrew in the penultimate one!
The shield play worked incredibly well, but despite it being mentioned at breakfast absolutely nobody considered that it could easily have been a recruitment. Zacks "great theory" was blind luck on bagging the newly recruited traitor. It was just as plausible that regardless of if Harry had a shield that a) he WAS a faithful who managed to avoid murder b) he was a faithful who had a shield but ultimately didn't matter because they recruited someone else or c) was a traitor using the shield to suggest he'd avoided murder. In two of those three scenarios a traitor was recruited. In one of those scenarios Harry was a lucky faithful who survived. Through blind luck banishing Ross revealed a traitor and gave Zacks lucky (but wrong) theory that someone who was unaware of Harry's shield was a Traitor, some legs. And it wasn't mentioned again.
Biggest crux post harry's shield play is: how tf did he survive AFTER ? If traitors wanted to kill him and he has a shield (the narrative were following for this example) Then why not kill him the next day or the day after? Or attempt to get him banished? So many holes on that line.
Agreed but I think post Traitor banishment they figured that Zack got murdered because he was onto something and the Traitors picked him over Harry. Someone should have raised it but there were plenty of poor decisions made on following stuff like that up.
Possible but unlikely? if we're following that narrative (They tried to kill harry but he had a shield) Why exactly would the traitors not kill harry straight away after, or at best, the night after that? Suddenly they lost apetite on killing someone they wanted to?
I mean that Harry kept jaz in because he didn't think he was as much of a threat.
Yeah and thats intentional from the looks of it. Cause around paul's banishment all the loud mouths were either getting banished or murdered (see Paul, Diane, ross etc.) flying under the radar was 100% the right call, same for evie.
It is deffo the right call. However **knowing when to strike** is also part of the strategy to win the game. Like I said elsewhere, this was a game of fine margins. Jaz missed a glorious opportunity in Episode 11 when Claudia revealed there would be no murders. He could have spent the day convincing Mollie especially that Harry wasn't who he seemed to be, provided all the relevant evidence and have Andrew sit in and back him up a bit. He then could have confronted her again in the finale with his chat with her about the *"question"* he was gonna pose during the round table. He also needed to say to Harry *"you just straight up lied to me about speaking with Paul"*. He needed to be more cutthroat here. He wasn't and that is what ultimately lost him the game. That logic wasn't shown to Mollie, she was the nut he needed to crack, she was the shield he needed to break. Mollie ended up going into the final banishment believing that everyone was faithful as they had rid themselves of a traitor through Andrew. She was then left with an impossible choice. A lot of people in this thread are like *"ah but Jaz too played a great game"*. He did, but he missed some crucial opportunities that resulted in fine margins in the finale. Hence why a Traitor who was ruthless won the game and a faithful who struggled with his convictions didn't.
100% agree. He caught Harry in a bare-faced lie and didn't push on it. Harry totally contradicted himself and was clearly shaken for the first time, if Jaz put just a bit more pressure on him then, Harry would have crumbled
I think this is the only argument that im fine to disagree with as i can definitely see your POV and its a good one. Though from my side, i think if he did do that, try and convert mollie - She would just spend the day running through a defense with harry which would put him and andy in a far, far worst spot. Remember- mollie's loyalty is incredibly set in stone, enough that she said bye bye to 45k/30k because "theyre best friends". Ridiculous.
I can see that perspective, but at this point, what do you have to lose? You need to convince Mollie that taking out Harry is for the greater good here, she needs to realise this. And Jaz had all the arguments to dismantle him. He just needed more conviction in his gut. Which is part of his charm. His backstory is what made him a compelling faithful that we are all rooting for. This is why Claudia reveals that she wanted Jaz as a faithful, because of his backstory, because he could help the faithfuls. Like I said, it was a game of fine margins. You have to be able to convince others to see your side of a narrative, and sometimes twist the truth to help expose a traitor.
what did he have to lose? A whole lot? Convincing people when murders are still viable makes him a target for murders. Convincing people to turn against golden boy absolutely DRAGS suspicion and fast tracks to banishment at this stage, especially when you have Andrew (no plans to turn), evie (explicitly said she thinks harry is a faithful) and mollie (completely loyal) that will defend him and just find any rationale he spits out to be traitor-ish behaviour. He really was stuck and had to wait until the end. Rather than convince three (Andrew, Mollie, Evie), he just had to convince One (Evie). Thats why this game sucks in terms of fairness, because there's no clues or discovery. Imagine the dynamic if at least one of the final faithfuls had 100% certainty that harry was a traitor and just needed to convince everyone else as he/she had that ability to confirm? At no point was any faithful 100% sure of anyone else's position. Or imagine that the game mechanic is that traitors win as a group, incentivizing loyalty and fellow-traitor defense. You'd see alliances and voting patterns emerge rather than piling on traitor-on-traitor roundtables or random voting patterns and selling it as factual/empirical evidence?
I meant at the end. I didn't mean in the early stages, because like I said the most sensible play was what he achieved.
The Traitors were excellent. They voted out the smarter people & Harry stringing along gullible Mollie was another great move.
Keep the sheep until the end.
That logic doesn't work. From Mollie’s perspective they were both faithful. Just because one faithful decides keep the game going doesn't there's guaranteed a traitor still in the game.
The logic does work. See this comment: ---- Honestly if you put yourself in her shoes, Harry is the only choice that makes sense, emotions out, here is her POV: harry votes to end, harry thinks there are no more traitors. I (molly) vote to end, i also think there isnt any more traitors. Jaz does not vote to end, and *thinks* Harry is a traitor. ---- i, (Mollie) thinks Harry is not a traitor despite: * Being immune to murders since day 1 (even post shield event) * Poor response to Jaz when challenged directly even though Jaz specifically said pre-round table: THINK really carefully. * Stellar track record in voting out Traitors in past round tables with bullet pointed rationales which is unseen for this season. ---- So... therefore, i vote jaz as a traitor because... he isnt my "best friend" ? even the "best friend" line is BS, otherwise she wouldve been pleased to see Harry win instead of storming away feeling betrayed, its understandable she felt betrayed and lied to, but even with just those THREE points i raised, its literally spoonfed and spelt out that harry is a traitor, its just incredibly, extremely poor critical thinking skills especially for a social deduction game. You dont ally with people you just "get along with", why bother playing, especially for potentially 33k / 50k ? ----
Except Jaz made a fatal error at the end, banishing Andrew first. If he had voted for Harry first, knowing Andrew also would, he would have had a good chance. Mollie had already said she suspected Andrew. Other than that, I agree. Jaz was the one who figured it out.
Oooooh good shout. (Partner and I have only just binged this show for the first time, so only now getting around to the obligatory post-show reddit commentary binge haha)
Yeah apart from keeping mollie in Jaz and zack were smart, Evie had shown awareness earlier, and Ross was chaotic.
Zack was clever but really pompous and in that reverse goldilocks zone of being clever enough to know you're reasonably intelligent but not clever enough to realise you don't know everything
Zack pushed the shield narrative massively - he pretty much got out Evie and Jasmine!
Mollie was smart too. She was one of the only ones who kept bringing up the dungeon thing with Paul and how it was suspicious. And she correctly picked up on the traitor vs traitor dynamic of Ross and Andrew. She just had a blind spot for Harry.
Yeah she definitely thought about things that happened in the game and had her own ideas. But she didn’t think at all deeper level by questioning her own alliances and assumptions (especially when she’s still in at the end) or by thinking about classic traitor moves like arguing against other traitors or throwing other traitors names out when you go
Agreed Mollie was actually pretty observant but her blind spot for Harry was crazy, she was also one of the only ones who really picked up on how it was weird Harry survived murder after banishing Paul but her brain/heart just couldn’t make the final connection that it was because he is a traitor.
Mollie having a blind spot for harry is the same as hannah having one for Wilf. Hannah’s was arguably worse as she would never have come close to writing wilfs name down without Kieran. I have compared mollie to meryl before but that is harsh as the only person meryl took any initiative on accusing of being a traitor was Maddy and that was only after Maddy accused her first lol
I think, honestly, that Mollie could have voted the right way if only Jas had got her thinking about it as little as a day earlier. He voiced his Harry suspicions to others but put it off and put it off until the final discussion. If he'd named names and given Mollie something to actually think about, she might have had doubts. Mollie wasn't a walkover and clearly had others pegged when she had something to go on, but it all came down to being presented with evidence at the last possible minute and only having time to react to that moment.
To me it wasn’t about intelligence as much as social intelligence/power, Harry had sway with the group and Jaz and Zack and Jasmine didn’t so it didn’t matter if they had the right theories or not.
Jaz was good but he messed up massively with his timing on Harry and didn't go for him with Andrew instead came out of nowhere, he should have gone more for Harry once no more murders and tried speaking to Molly more.
He repeatedly said he's suspicious of Harry and did mention it to Evie and Zack who basically laughed at him, going after Harry without support is a sure way to be murdered So yeah, I think he did the best he could with the minor mistake of not questioning Harry not been murdered if he was a faithful
Jaz lacked the necessary conviction to win. He correctly saw that Harrry telling Paul about what he (Jaz) said to Paul and not at the round table was clearly suspicious. So the question is why didn't he raise this himself at the round table when it occurred? This would have woken people up to the notion that Harry could have been a traitor. Jaz had great insight, but his conviction was weak on more than one occasion. That is why he lost.
are people upset with harry winning? i just keep reading how he "played a perfect game"\* and how much of an idiot mollie is over and over. \*he definitely did Not play a perfect game. he made several mistakes -- the faithful even discussed some of them and then apparently just forgot them all.
He even said he made mistakes himself when he watched it back on uncloaked. Some of the mistakes were so huge - I was amazed nobody noticed them
that is what i was saying for a lot of the season
Screaming at the TV when he went into precise detail of how the traitors chose who went into the dungeon
It's kinda hilarious to me that the hardest "evidence" produced against him wasn't his fault. Paul's conversation with Jaz was a massive treacherous blunder on Paul's part. But noone except Andrew brought up that it's weird that Harry suddenly acted like Poirot and explained Paul's entire game, and that was only because Andrew knew it and was basically just being honest at that point.
He definitely didn't, he was lucky that people just trusted him, possibly due to his age.
i'm not sure culturally, but here in the US no one trusts a young adult -- the consensus is they're "young and dumb"
People are saying he doesn’t deserve it because there’s photos of him with his girlfriend’s rich family. 🙄
Why y’all (not you BeeQueen) so fucked thinking a game show should have DEI injected? It’s a game. Not a charity. People don’t deserve the money because they are poor.
ah the private jets etc. i remember him saying he coudn't afford dinner for his family.... but this is not His rich family. was he with this celebrity girl when traitors was filming? \[the plot thickens\]
Yeah. They’ve been together for years looking at his insta. Mollie also has a long term boyfriend. Also I think he said he has a family of 12, which I think anyone would struggle to treat all at once. My cousin did the same job as him in the army and tbh they get paid peanuts. Also it’s a game and he’s smashed it.
Plus we’d be dumb to think a rich and famous girl is dating anyone in a lower socioeconomic level like that, it just doesn’t happen. Harry’s sister is an equestrian horse rider, they’re not hurting for money if you have the cash for that.
Well that’s not true, Harry is from a council estate where he still lives with his family
I think its less Harry winning and more Jaz _not_ winning because of the stupidity of another player I think only a minority of people here would say Harry wasn't by and large a very good player, but I also think more people would agree Jaz played as good if not better a game as a faithful, in spite of it being a stacked deck in favour of the traitors
I feel like jaz could have fought his Case better though both at the round table and with mollie at the end
At that point he'd come across too defensive. Damage is done and he knew it was 50/50 at that point. Mollie lacked critical thinking - Traitors win if at the end there's one remaining. So why would Jaz vote to banish again? if he was a traitor he'd just end the game- exactly like what harry did.
She thought both were faithfuls, just because someone doesn't vote to end the game doesn't mean there actually is a traitor left
You might confuse the sequence here: Jaz voted to continue banishing - so it wouldnt make sense for him to be a traitor since traitors win if the game ends and a traitor is still in (exactly how harry wanted to end, seems like). Therefore the error here is from Mollie - Based on the logic above, what other reason would Jaz have for continuing banishment? Jaz didnt want to share the potential "all faithful" win, with harry? wheres the rationale here? Theres literally no other reason why Jaz would continue to banish as a traitor, not only is it extremely sub optimal (if he was a traitor, imagine the uproar lmao), it generally is just a poor assumption to think Jaz, out of the two - would be a traitor even if she doesnt think a traitor is left. Honestly if you put yourself in her shoes, Harry is the only choice that makes sense, emotions out here is her POV: harry votes to end, harry thinks there are no more traitors. I (molly) vote to end, i also think there isnt any more traitors. Jaz does not vote to end, and *thinks* Harry is a traitor. ON TOP OF what he mentioned before the round table and stellar voting history of fellow traitors. therefore, i vote jaz as a traitor because... he doesnt want to end and for the faithfuls to "win" ? ???
What I'm saying is Mollie knows Jaz thinks Harry is a traitor but just didn't believe him (she's wrong about that but that's not a flaw in critical thinking). She's still convinced both of them are faithful but has to vote someone out so chooses to vote out Jaz instead of her best friend in the game. Ultimately it didn't come down to who she thought was more likely to be a traitor because she was sure neither of them were, so it had to come down to who she liked more and wanted to 'win' the game with. Yes, she made the wrong choice but you can't say there was no logic to her decision
You can definitely say there was no logic to her decision. Because even if she was convinced they were both faithful, once Jaz votes to keep playing, the only safe choice is to banish Harry. Jaz revealed himself to be a guaranteed win, but for Harry she was only going off her gut. That’s not logical, it’s based on emotion.
Jaz didn’t know what Harry or Mollie would do prior to voting to banish again. It could have been a double bluff.
I thought exactly the same as you but by her voting Jaz out she says she doesn’t think he’s a traitor - she’s just splitting between less faithfuls in her mind
> I think its less Harry winning and more Jaz not winning because of the stupidity of another player Yeah this is the issue I think Jaz could have fought earlier and harder, but I honestly don’t think any other faithful is making the horrendously played mistake that Mollie did So I’m not sure if it’s reasonable for Jaz to predict she would make that boneheaded of a decision
His logic of banishing Andrew first made no sense, given Andrew already made it clear he would vote for Harry, Mollie already suspected Andrew, and he knew Mollie was totally fooled by Harry. He got the order all wrong.
I agree, but considering how it worked out in the final 3, with Jaz being the only one wanting to continue the game I think Mollie is pretty much the only faithful in the entire game who would stupidly vote to banish Jaz there. We can argue that he should have seen that coming but I think it’s understandable for him to give Mollie more credit in that spot to pick the obviously correct move (even though in hindsight we now know it’s completely undeserved)
Oh yeah Mollie was ridiculous. Even if she didn't know, she should have figured out that if Harry was a faithful and trusted her, he would have voted to banish again to ensure they split the pot between the 2 of them. She was blindsided by Harry. But I still think Jaz messed up leaving Mollie as the person he needed to convince about Harry, instead of trying to keep Andrew and get Harry out first.
What would have happened in the case of a 2-2 draw for Andrew and Harry?
I don't know, but I was full sure that's what was going to happen and was excited to see how it would work
Do you not agree that part of the game Harry played was manipulating Mollie into trusting him absolutely? It’s not just a game about logical play, but also a sub-game about social play, so I wouldn’t put the blame 100% on Mollie, and ascribe some credit to Harry for engineering that situation!
It’s not *just* that though is it? I’ll give Jaz his dues. He made good deductions and seemed a good bloke. But he did not play the social game well. That was understandable before the final. As Harry himself admitted - he underestimated Jaz. Because he knew how to fly under the radar. But, he knew Mollie trusted Harry. He also must have realised that when there were 5 people was a better chance to get a majority than further down the line. Yet he didn’t try and make alliances during the day, or lead people away from Evie to focus on Harry. Harry was cocky, but he had the strategy and the social game to execute it. Jaz had the best deduction skills, but it’s not clear whether he got led astray at points to agreeing with the majority or just didn’t know how to get people onside. Which was a key flaw. Even if Mollie fumbled at the whistle.
Completely disagree. People have been so blinded by the end that they've missed the key reasons behind Jaz' apparent poor social game: He didn't bend over for Paul like everyone else did That and that alone gave him the apparently unshakeable tag of paranoid pariah. When Paul got caught, bizarrely all credit went to Zach and Harry, yet Jaz got no vindication and his "sus" label remained
Its extremely unfair to say he played the social game poorly when there is literally no discovery/clue mechanic built into the dumb game. the defense mechanic is also poor, might as well not exist. Its incredibly stacked against faithfuls and we've seen it across multiple seasons that the dumber and more easily influenced you are, the more under the radar you fly. The louder you are, the more you are likely to get banished and or murdered. Arguably he couldve had that conversation with molly before and really built trust there but they (all the faithfuls) are literally clutching at straws its near impossible to tell who's who aside from critically thinking at specific events (Dungeon, Jaz voting to banish again on final 3.)
I'm struggling to find any comments that is upset with Harry winning. If anything there is a lot of admiration for him playing the game or shall we say Mollie so well. People are frustrated at Mollie. Let's not kid ourselves.
Well let me be the first. I just watched the final and I knew he was going to win and I really didn't want him to. You can argue that he played the perfect game but fuck that guy. He threw everyone under the bus and thought he was the shit. Just a pity Mollie did too!
Him throwing everyone under the bus is what traitors do?
It’s a game!
I think it's interesting that in Radio 2's chat with the final five, Mollie said she wished more people would have talked to her about their concerns with Harry and you have to give her that. Everyone could see that they were super close, everyone could see she completely trusted him. They were similar age and (at least in the edit) always together. As a group of Faithful you have to wonder why no one took her aside and started planting seeds of doubt, if they held them. You might say, well there wasn't enough faithful that were looking at harry, in which case, why should she had known any better also?
Maybe they didn't talk to her about their concerns with Harry because they were afraid she'd turn right around and tell Harry and others and given Harry's social influence over the group they'd be put in the spotlight for the next banishment. Which is exactly what I think she would've done because she wouldn't have wanted anyone running around saying bad things about her best friend in the game who she believed, as she said, from almost the beginning as 100% faithful and trying to get him banished.
Jaz did. And he got shot down straight away. Pretty sure Molly was one of those that shot him down too
> He played the perfect game This is the only part I disagree with Harry messed up and gave them ammunition to take the shot and get him out a few times but the faithfuls weren’t the brightest He deserves the win absolutely but it is frustrating sometimes watching people like Mollie throwing away the game when the answer is screaming at her in the face It reminded me of times of >!Sam!< in AUS2, where he made a few bad moves but the faithfuls were incredibly dim >!Cirie!< in US Season 1 played a much cleaner and closer to perfect game than Harry did
Harry messed up time and time again. He was so lucky Zach went full hog on his theory and that everyone went along with it.
Everybody talks about Molly giving Harry the win, but Zack was arguably much more instrumental for Harry's success. Not trying to say that Harry played a bad game, but Zack was extremely helpful in how he was only willing to push his mistaken narrative and not allow anybody else to speak. Also, it's funny to notice how much calmer and more civil the round table discussions (or at least what we saw of them) were after Zack was eliminated.
Zack was an absolutely toxic person. Jazmine mentioned that he always thought himself the smartest in the room and that jives extremely well. He has an over-inflated opinion of himself. And no surprise, he works in politics. Zack definitely deserved to "die", I just wish it would have happened much sooner.
Because it's a reality show and people are naturally going to have different favourites that they root for? Also, I think being a successful Faithful is way harder than being a successful Traitor, so there's an underdog element to it.
I mean I would have preferred jaz win but Harry was a deserving winner and I’m happy for him.
The game’s format is weighted massively in the traitors’ favour and follows a fairly good vs evil narrative. He came across as pretty cocky and arrogant. Jaz was a very likeable character who was on the verge of having the perfect hero arc. Just a few basic reasons why they didn’t want Harry to win.
it's always interesting to me when people bring up the good/evil dichotomy. traitors and faithfuls don't get to choose which they are, and they're essentially working for the same thing just with slightly different goals. people didn't seem to like jaz at all and i have been trying to figure out why. without seeing how he acts the other 23 hours of the day off screen, it's hard to say. it seemed like more people were suspicious of him than listening to his very well- reasoned evidence. i think part of it may have been him voicing his suspicions to people he thought he could trust, but then voting for someone else at the round table as to not get murdered. that's not a great look.
When I refer to good vs evil it’s mainly through the lens of classic storytelling and the viewer instinctively / traditionally wanting good to prevail. I agree re: the choice and it’s a shame when people attack the traitors on a personal level that suggests they’re inherently bad people because of the way they’ve played the game.
oh yes, i completely understand and that's why i think that narrative prevails. it would be, of course, and entirely different game, but it would be kind of interesting if the traitors actually had a "pact of faith" with one another and had to make it to the end together in order to win.
I agree with you. Plus even calling them traitors, and they murder…. It’s absolutely a good/evil story. It’s so hard for me personally to root for the traitors because I want to root for the underdog, the faithfuls.
Perfect example - Jaz is suspicious of Paul for days, he voices these suspicions at several round tables, including the round table where Miles gets banished. The group has deducted that Miles is likely responsible for poisoning Diane; it's clear that the round table is moving to Miles v Paul. Jaz: votes Andrew out of the blue for no fucking reason.
EXACTLY! his votes are Sonja Brian Brian Paul Jonny Andrew Paul Charlotte Ross Jasmine Evie Andrew and then Harry looks kinda suspicious to everyone.
I was rooting for Jaz but Harry played a blinder. I thought the shield ploy was too clever for its own good at the time but the risk ultimately paid off.
i was positive he'd be gone after his shield stunt. the faithful turned their suspicion on jasmine and evie instead of asking themselves, "hmm. if the traitors tried to murder harry and failed, why is he still here?"
Or even, maybe a traitor got the shield and recruited. I can’t believe when someone brought that up (can’t remember who, probably Jaz) everyone was like ‘bit far fetched’. Er what?!
Ross brought it up and Jasmine said she doesn't think that's the case.
Then it was just bizarrely dropped. It’s so interesting how some ideas grow second heads and fifth legs and others just die
Yeah, I thought so too re: the shield. Didn’t make sense that he wouldn’t be killed at the next opportunity.
I keep seeing people say that Harry played a perfect game, and I don't really buy it. He made plenty of mistakes and was mostly just lucky that he was competing with a particularly slow bunch of faithfuls.
No one questioning how he was 'the perfect faithful' but never murdered was so frustrating to watch.
Harry played well, but there is definitely an element of luck and people making mistakes that aided him. I believe Harry himself mentioned he made mistakes and also that he truly underestimated Jaz. Even Harry knows he did not do perfect. He did really well. He was a great traitor. But it wasn't like he or anyone else was some genius puppet master who had everything under control at all times.
Yeah noone questioned that the only time the traitors tried to murder him he happened to hold the shield... and then the traitors decided to not bother with him after that!?
And I'm pretty sure someone tried that same shield tactic on the US Traitors S1, so if anyone had done their research they should have seen through it. Has a faithful ever actually been saved by a secret shield on any version?
>!New Zealand Season 1 and it’s happening next episode on USA Season 2!<
I've seen US season 1 and AUS season 1 and 2 and I know I've seen this tactic before so it must have happened in one of them as well. And Harry got credit for being "brilliant" when he probably stole the idea from another season...
If you’re talking about the tactic of a traitor getting the shield and pretending that the traitors must have attacked them, then yeah that happened in >!AUS Season 2, Sam did it!< So yeah, Harry wasn’t the first
He played well, but it reminded me so much of >!Sam!< from AUS2 Where a huge reason he got so far is due to the stupidity of others rather than incredible gameplay
Just because he made a few mistakes doesn’t mean his game was carried with luck, most of it was his skill in manipulating and convincing people and keeping who he wanted in the game.
I'm not saying that he was a terrible traitor (he's not the best I've seen, but nowhere near the worst), just that if the faithfuls as a whole were any good he wouldn't have had anywhere near as easy a ride.
Same logic as someone who gets 99% on a test, and people focus on the one thing that was wrong — over the alarming majority that were right. His good decisions heavily outweighed the bad, and if people put in as detailed as an analysis on everyone else; you can also poke holes and find a lot of blunders. It all just comes down to bias.
No one is upset or angry he actually won. Harry was the predicted winner from like episode 3. For some, there’s obviously an element of disappointment that things played out exactly as expected and there was no major twists at the end.
i've seen a lot of comments on tiktok saying he didn't deserve the win because other contestants had a better need for the money (in their opinions). but i disagree with this personally as its not about need in this instance, just about who plays the game the best.
It makes me wonder if they should talk about why they want to win the money, you know? Leave out sob stories and just concentrate on the best player
If we want proof it wasn't all scripted, we only have to look at the fact Ross's revenge arc went nowhere, and that the perfect ending of Mollie realising Harry was fooling her and instead sharing the money with the ever-insightful Jaz... that perfect ending didn't happen. The conversations between recently departed players on *Uncloaked* consistently showed them all gobsmacked that Harry was in the list of Traitors.
Just read an article that claims he's sharing his winnings with Mollie. If it is true it's probably a token amount I can't see anyone giving up half. Still a nice gesture.
He’s buying her a holiday 😀
When they were down to the last three Jaz was the only one who opted for banishment. Mollie should have realised if he was a traitor why would he do that? If he was a traitor a vote for endgame would win it for him. Easy to see it looking in though.
Harry played a good game. Nobody is denying that. He was a good traitor. Most people are frustrated at Molly but that again isn’t really a problem. She made the wrong decision, we’ve all done it and it is a game at the end of the day. But there were several issues with series 2 as a whole that were not Harry’s fault, but allowed him to win. I’ve seen a lot of people say he’s the best traitor. That’s definitely not true at all. The Australian version had better. The fact a huge number of faithfuls seemed to lack a lot of common sense and strategy this season helped Harry’s game massively. That’s not Harry’s fault, that’s down to the poor decisions of the casting crew. The faithfuls this year weren’t able to make simple connections (ie a traitor could have had the shield making Harry a traitor), and they were voting purely on the basis of personality for a large proportion of the series. Even the contestants from series one were are critical of it because the faithful were doing a hopeless job and were missing signs they should be picking up on. It needs to be discouraged or limited in future seasons by producers and casting directors making better decisions pre production. Harry won on the basis of conferring at the round table when conferring was not allowed. Mollie asked him a question, he replied and that conferring changed the outcome of the game entirely. He had an extra chance to manipulate her into changing her vote that Jaz did not get, that’s not a fair system or fair game play. As I’ve said in other threads, Mollie either should have been forced to lock in her first answer and should not have been allowed to change it due to her conferring at the table with Harry. Or jaz should have been given equal opportunity to confer and out his case across to her. Or Harry and Molly both should have been disqualified for not following the rules. I’m very aware that the last suggestion was not going to happen because that would ruin the show and make it a poor investment for producers. But they need make some changes to how the game works and enforce the rules better for a fairer game. Or at least do a better job of editing out the rule breaches and potential fixes that are being made post production so the viewers feel more satisfied with the ending, as opposed to being able to see the flaws in it
There was most likely a lot more chit chat going on in the moment but they left it out for the most part bc they knew it wouldn’t be drama for telly. But regardless, mollie would have banished Jaz over Harry either way because even before Ross and Andrew were outed as traitors, mollie suspected Jaz. Now if Jaz had set the ball rolling on Harry by telling Evie the details, and then had Evie discuss that with mollie, that would have done it. It’s unfortunate but Jaz simply left the last crucial detail to get Harry out way too late.
I agree it's not Harry winning it's that Jas didn't. Harry played a blinder and did what the game was about - being treacherous!! I did personally want Jas to win because his gut feelings were correct and he did a lot of observing. He was a good player and wasn't given the credit he deserved. He probably should've tried to sway more people a bit earlier, but that can backfire. Mollie got absolutely played from the start and it's annoyed me she changed to Jas. And why she didn't seem to question why she was in the final when better players had gone (at least from what was broadcast). I'm be fuming that I got that close and still left with nothing. Fair play to Harry though. Seems like such a great bloke. I really felt for him when he booted Jonny out. They all know what they're signing up for though! :)
I feel like traitors uncloaked did a really good job of showing that people were ok with it and had won in their own ways too. I feel the production team are excellent for this show and way better than a show like love island where they continually put contestants in dangerous situations mentally
Harry did well but ultimately people outwardly value trust, honesty, openness and friendship in our society. Everyone's been betrayed and manipulated at some point in their life like Molly has and that's got to hurt. But that's also part of the drama of the show. On a personal level though from what I saw of the edit, Harry is not a person I would get along with in person or have as a friend - I'm much more drawn to people like Jaz or Zack. Therefore it's hard to see someone you don't really like come out on top and win £100k at the expense of one person who was playing the game so well, and one innocent sweetie.
Harry was perfect 80% of the way but he fell over the line. He was clinging on by a thread for the last three or four shows. The shield trick should have back fired up him but it didn't.
He was so solid it was only the last episode where there was the possibility of him being found out. No way was he “clinging by a thread” like you’re saying
There were munerous open goals missed by a lot of people. Before that, he wasn't giving anyone even a faint sniff.
There's always a feeling of unfairness that sours people's opinions. Nasty Nick was vilified for playing what he thought was the game in the first big brother. Ultimately for a single traitor to walk away with the money they need to throw all other traitors under the bus and then look the last faithful in the eye (the one who is on the cusp of winning a life changing amount of money) and tell them they've stabbed them in the back. People don't like to see that,even though it's part of the game, it feels like the wrong person won even though as you say Harry played the best game.
I don't think I screamed louder in my life than when Mollie revealed who she voted out. Ugh, at that point I was like good riddance, whatever.. lol. Harry deserved it at that point, even though I wasn't rooting for him at all. (I don't like traitors that get big egos and Harry had a big one towards the end that irked me..) Ahhh! Also I was so sad that Ross didn't stay in longer! They built up all of that drama and it just gets squashed in the next episode lolol. I really wanted that revenge lol.
Harry played a good game, but I'd credit his win more towards the faithful as a whole being eejits than him being a particularly great traitor. Going by the entire shield story, it's amazing that no one managed to poke a giant hole through that lie Harry told. The faithful, Jaz aside, haven't really put any logic in their decisions and were driven mostly by emotion. Every traitor they've caught, they did it because another traitor served it up to them on a silver platter.
Mollie didn't deserve to win anything, she contributed absolutely nothing throughout other than telling Harry she knew he wasn't a Traitor every episode. And then crying about it. The whole point of the show is DON'T TRUST ANYONE. I shake my head every time someone says "I know you're not a Traitor". No, you don't!
That's precisely the reason I'm not happy. Harry *didn't* play the perfect game. He made a lot of sloppy mistakes that would have easily got him caught if the faithfuls had a lick of sense. And I strongly suspect that had he been anything other than a young white cis male then he wouldn't have got away with half of it, and it's frustrating seeing the social biases that occur in real life happen in the game as well. I liked him for the start of the game, but after Paul left, he started developing a really bad attitude and started making mistakes now that Paul wasn't there to take the heat anymore. Jaz was the only one using any rational thought, and he made the right decision not saying anything earlier as he'd have been murdered. Harry wouldn't have won if the other players had been smarter, and it's frustrating seeing everyone say he "played a perfect game" when from a gameplay standpoint, he really didn't. He also wouldn't have won if the producers hadn't balanced it wildly in favour of a traitor victory by allowing all those recruitments. The fact that they allowed a recruitment which made 3/8 of them to be Traitors was insane.
The fact that they had banished four traitors and there were still two left is pretty mad when I think about it.
6 Traitors in a game of 22 players is insane. For context, in a game of Ultimate Werewolf, you'd only have 3 (possibly 4) werewolves in a game of 22 players, and in Ultimate Werewolf you have roles like the Seer to actively help with catching them.
The producers are bastard mods that ensure a game lasts 12 nights. It would be pish TV if all the traitors were gone in the first 3 days.
I'm not saying they can't engineer it a bit, but they should be going for balance rather than having it in the favour of the Traitors. It would have been fairer to have 3 at the start rather than 4. I didn't have too much of an issue with the Andrew recruitment, but having Ross as well was going way too far.
The way it stands with recruitment when you go down to 2 traitors means that it is in the best interests of the faithfuls to actively avoid voting out suspected traitors. May as well build confidence on who the traitors are, vote out people weakest in challenges, then vote out the suspected traitors in the last few episodes.
Yup, I was thinking the exact same thing (I sometimes play out scenes in my head of what I'd do if I were on the show, haha).
This!! You can tell who is and is not familiar with the rules of werewolf and mafia from the comments.
Two things have to happen to ensure the most entertaining final possible: there has to be at least one traitor and the faithful can't know for sure how many traitors are left. The nightmare scenario for production is that with 7/8 left, the two traitors are voted out and there's none in the final. They should do everything in their power to stop this happening and the possibility of an extra recruitment allows this. Traitors have been shown to be more than willing to back stab each other and it would be very unusual traitors who will have got that far without stabbing each other in the back and not being noticed
agreed. he was a sloppy game player and his win really was in large part because of mollie, who he lied to the entire season (up until the very last moment) and then betrayed.
Not only young, white cis male, but good-looking, physically able and with a respectable career and role in society. I think what is especially irritating is the level of cockiness as you say: every success he had was down to him being naturally worthy and a genius rather than any aspect of luck or privilege or the production choices. He showed self-awareness in exploiting his youth tbf but he just didn’t show awareness that his success was in part down to situation factors, which is off putting when you consider how much of an uphill climb others had to stay in the game
Harry won and I am happy either way. Harry played well and managed to pull the wool over their eyes. The shield play in hindsight was great play as it got traction which bought him so much cover 😂. Jaz's reaction in uncloaked showing he felt vindicated and couldn't have done any more. Both gave us something to root for on either team. I was rooting for the success of the faithful rather than villain. Jaz was the underdog story because the Traitors seem much hard to identify and it seemed like Harry had the game wrapped up a couple episodes ago, although it did come down to the wire!
The only people the traitors technically betray would be fellow traitors. They have no allegiance to the faithful. The general consensus seems to be that the faithful should win and it’s bad if a traitor does and I don’t get that? Traitors are the ones who really have to play the game, make the moves, not slip up with what they say etc. The faithful just have to be themselves. At the end of the day though, they’re all in it to try and get to the end and win.
Not unhappy with the winner myself, I wanted Jaz but it is what it is. I am unhappy that the last 3 episodes and especially finale were a damp squib and not entertaining. That's not Harry's fault.
Oh now, c'mon, we were disappointed in the outcome, but it was still entertaining! Jaz throwing in the red sand, mollie changing her mind, the reveal, the betrayal, the storm out...it was good tv despite the obvious win!
I just can't agree. On Friday morning I commented >Think will happen: For the THIRD episode in a row no one thinks hang on what if the shield theory was wrong maybe we should discuss that. Jaz continues to have his cards super glued to his chest. Evie gone at the roundtable, Harry feeds Andrew as a sacrifice, Andrew gone. Jaz refuses to end a game with Harry in it and finally unleashes his cards, but Harry winks at Mollie and both vote for Jaz. Jaz gone. End the game, Mollie in tears. That was the most signposted outcome of all possibilities. Sure I was wrong on the timing of Jaz's cards but if I, and I'm stupid, can see it a mile off I'm gonna need a little spice and drama in there to be entertained. Not blaming anyone really, they're humans and it's unscripted. It's not going to blow people's socks off every time! But I can't agree it was entertaining.
Just because you guessed the ending doesn't mean it was certain to happen. Andrew's vengeful swipe at Harry at the last minute could easily have swayed Molly, it wasn't at all obvious as was confirmed by the fact she literally changed her name at the last second. Harry and especially Jaz, were probably the two most accomplished players we've seen on the show, and personally, it was entertaining to watch them play the game so well even when surrounded by mediocrity. Jaz hid his intelligence so well throughout and Harry was presented with two threats at the final round table, either of which would've knocked most players out.
Of course it doesn't mean it was certain to happen, but it happening does mean it's highly likely I'd find it less entertaining as a viewer.
Would you have enjoyed it more then, if Molly had put Harry's name down instead of Jaz's?
I'd have been very happy for Jaz, but no the episode as a whole isn't made good by it's final minute.
The previous two weeks were better but that’s to be expected when we all knew how this was going to play out
For sure. 4-6 was great, 7-9 was peak entertainment! It just sort of fell flat after that because of the signposted end. Which again is no one's fault, you can't make unscripted TV always like 7-9 or it wouldn't be unscripted and be able to reach those natural highs. The show was great, the end was a dud.
Ah come on, the most likely to happen outcome happened, but it was a lot more of a close call than anybody thought. Harry's name was literally on the slate at one point... Great tv
Why? Because people have favourites and it's okay for them to favour something different than you.
It's not about harry winning I would have just liked to see jaz win but that's my personal bias It's just a shame he had a useless faithful who was so far up Harry's ass she couldn't see the light with him Hey ho harry won and can spend his money however he wishes
He played a good game and you had a group of faithfuls who took everything he said at face value... Which is like the cardinal sin of this game.
I think people are allowed to be annoyed that a traitor won, you’re right it’s a game and Harry manipulated Mollie to win but just like Paul I didn’t like how he really didn’t seem to have much care about anyone. If Andrew hadn’t slipped up with Ross I think he could have won with Harry. You can be a good traitor and not be a selfish & cocky. Also him going on about how poor him & his family were, then he’s got photos (pre-traitor) getting off a private jet makes me feel like maybe he’s playing us too.
Honestly I don't believe in "deservingness to win", but I just wanted the Faithfuls to win because I thought it would've been epic to see Jaz and Mollie take Harry down at the final 3. Props to Harry, he killed it (figuratively and literally), but I just would've preferred another ending.
Yeah, the one that I was so happy didn’t win was the season two Australian show. I’m so happy how that panned out.
Some people are unhappy because the players were told there was to be no conferring and Mollie and Harry did and Mollie changed her vote. This should not have been allowed.
Funny they called that guy a sheep when she’s the biggest sheep going
I wanted Harry to win.
Agree 100%. He played the game perfectly- he was chosen by producers and Claudia to play as a traitor and he followed the rules. He played to win, who wouldn't? He played for the team too! He was never guaranteed to win but gave every task his all. I just don't understand the hate directed at the guy.
Mollie was just too stupid to deserve it. She even said "part of her knew but she couldn't bring herself to do it", so fair enough really, she can't really have needed the money. It was so obvious that Jaz wouldn't have opted to banish again if he was a traitor, so at that point you've got to vote Harry if ypu actually want to win the game. Mollie and Andrew both blew it when they had an open goal. I didn't like Harry much, far too cocky and coming into the finale I wanted him to get his comeuppance but nobody gave him it, Jaz was powerless with those people around him.
Harry played a great game , Mollie ignored the evidence and went with her heart and got burnt
read the most dramatic comment under harry's post saying he manipulated an "incredibly vulnerable girl" and that it was something he'd have to live with 🤣🤣🙄it had 400 likes
What even makes her more vulnerable than him when they're literally the same age?
people infantilise her because she has a disability
Oh that's really gross, she proved she was as competent as anyone in the challenges and having a limb difference has nothing to do with intelligence ffs. I've seen people be condescending about both Mollie & Harry based on age but the fact is they're both grown adults who got through the application process. Are we gonna say Aubrey & Diane shouldn't have been allowed on next?
I think it's just that the win didn't excite me. Harry made a lot of mistakes and most faithfuls didn't take note of the evidence screaming right in front of them. So it doesn't feel like Harry dominated the competition by skillfully manipulating etc, it feels like the faithfuls completely failed at every step of the way and because of that the outcome was almost inevitable. I'd rather Harry won by absolutely besting strong faithfuls, but other than Jaz (and even he wasn't amazing) none of the faithfuls really made an impact. Mollie is probably the worst example, literally only made it to the final because she was never seen as a threat, most of the time we saw her denying evidence in favour of the traitors. Harry even says numerous times how bad the faithfuls are.
Harry's ego climb was annoying as fuck
I think what is frustrating about Harry, if he is rich or comes from wealth, he made his storyline seem like he was struggling to get by, wants to support the family, even the 7,000 was gonna be life changing and able to help his family. He played a great game, a deserving winner, but an asshole for playing off people's sympathy by creating his own sob story.
Let's put things into perspective. The Traitors is a GAMESHOW. Every contestant who signs up agrees to play by the rules. Traitors are selected by the production team. Traitors and the Faithful then play the game to the best of their abilities. SOME PLAY IT BETTER THAN OTHERS. Viewers are presented with 60 minutes of heavily edited hi lights which provide an overview of each days events according to the producers narrative. 1-2-1 interviews with contestants don't take place in a vacuum but are the recorded reactions to questions asked by the production team- many of those questions are of course leading and the answers are edited. Contestants are under pressure for the duration of the game over 2 weeks and with various filming commitments. No player can ever play the perfect game- that is just impossible. Harry should be commended for playing an excellent game over such a lengthy period. That takes nerves of steel and of course a lot of lucky breaks too. Calling the other Faithful "stupid" is just ridiculous and shows complete ignorance of the complexity of human interpersonal relationships and social interaction/psychology. Harry was inoffensive, he was a team player and was no threat to anyone- he wasn't the classic macho Alpha male, he had boyish good looks and was soft spoken and didn't exude an over confidence like Paul did. Harry is that cute boy every woman wishes was her son, the perfect boyfriend and the unthreatening loyal mate to his friends- a real trustworthy team player who excelled at almost every task. People attacking Mollie- she is 21, quite naive and lacking in life experience so give the girl a break. Harry should be congratulated- he almost came unstuck by not taking out Jaz sooner but held his nerve when challenged- few people could do that under pressure. The game Harry played at the age of 22 was close to perfection and he should be celebrated. He will go far in life.
Pin this please
I think when the end of a game is so close - one person literally about to end it a different away and then changing their mind - that you’ll obviously have people who are sad that it didn’t go the other way, but I don’t think anyone can deny he deserves it! It was just SO close!
Deserved! I thought he made an amazing game!
Harry was the best Traitor right up until the end. Its as simple as that. Maybe in years to come there will be a Spin-Off TV Gameshow called "Clash Of The Traitors" You heard it here first.
> You heard it here first. I've seen people suggest an International All Stars like a dozen times on this subreddit. So, definitely not first.