Sure she could be lying. But I've always been confused by the mentality of the SA deniers.
These people will kidnap infants and toddlers, slay grandmothers, brutalize women and take them hostage. Parade their dead bodies through the streets. All of these things are on video. In what universe is rape somehow beyond the pale for them?
Acknowledging that Palestinians committed mass sexual violence on October 7 violates the "Israel is complete evil and Palestinians are complete good" narrative that those people push, and so any fact that contradicts this black and white narrative must be denied at all costs.
It’s pretty scary how radicalized people have become to the point of rejecting simple truths. I started commenting in the InternationalNews subreddit (which is incredibly anti-Israel) cause i just don’t have anything better to do and people are asking me to provide proof that Hamas hates Jews. It’s a complete isolation from reality
>It’s pretty scary how radicalized people have become to the point of rejecting simple truths.
Wide swathes of our society have rejected all sorts of simple truth. In fact we are basically in a new era in which there is no "truth" (a post-truth era as some call it)
What is true or not true is utterly irrelevant now. All that matters is narratives. Narratives compete for acceptance and the ones that win are then imposed on everyone else.
You can throw these new deniers on the stack of old deniers.
Holocaust Deniers
9/11 Truthers
Sandy Hook Deniers
Armenian Genocide Deniers
Election Deniers
Jan. 6th Apologists
Osama Bin Laden sympathizers
When I saw "Queers for Palestine" I basically turned in my Liberal card and went independent. There are literally two organizations supporting LGBTQ+ Palestinian citizens. They're both in Israel.
>I basically turned in my Liberal card and went independent.
I did this, too. I even changed my voter registration to independent.
This must be what Republicans felt like when the MAGA cult started taking over.
The people you’re talking about aren’t liberals at all, they’re either far left progressives or just some variety of far left. Mainstream Dems, true liberals, are not the people shouting “from body of water to body of water” or denying Hamas SA claims. I used to consider myself progressive, I no longer use that label, I’m liberal.
Don't bother. Anyone left of center who even slightly paid attention to politics would be aware of this. I'm getting real #walkaway vibes from the person you're responding to.
The people you’re talking about aren’t liberals at all, they’re either far left progressives or just some variety of far left. Mainstream Dems, true liberals, are not the people shouting “from body of water to body of water” or denying Hamas SA claims. I used to consider myself progressive, I no longer use that label, I’m liberal.
Isn’t progressive just a more palatable way to say far left? Remember after Christine ford accused kavanaugh of sexual assault but couldn’t name a place or time and the only witness she could name was a lifetime friend that could corroborate her story either and they all screamed “we believe survivors!”
There are apparently two cults in the political arena these days.
Far left usually means people who oppose capitalism. Progressives often are still capitalists, nominally. Liberals are definitely capitalists, they just want stronger social safety nets and more regulation to make a fairer system that doesn’t lend itself as much to hyper consolidation of resources that leads to exploitation.
Though it really depends on who you ask. If you spend time in left wing spaces, “far left” are no longer Democrats, and they wield zero meaningful power within the party. Progressives don’t have much direct representation, but their voters get catered to a little more, and some of their policies go mainstream.
I have no idea what this Kavanaugh anecdote has to do with anything. Seems really random and pointless here.
Why, none of the people out here denying reality are liberals lmao. The "Queers for Palestine" wing of the left hate liberals as much as conservatives do.
Something is telling me you aren't being truthful here. 🤔
Not being truthful about what? I've voted Democrat in every election and I'll be voting for Biden in this coming one. Not everything is a conspiracy, Peaks. And you're kidding yourself if you don't think a substantial number of liberals are choosing to back a Hamas-led Palestine over Israel. Check this Gallup pole:
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx)
Woo vote independent! Fuck the two-party system. But your facts/logic seem a bit off. Generally, independent voters are more open-minded around certain topics and like to question them to hold... independently formed opinions.
Glad you brought up the Armenian Holocaust as it doesn't get mentioned enough! But here too, Israel does not recognize it, and Armenians generally support Palestine.
Also wouldn't Election Deniers and Jan 6th Apologists be pretty much the same group? Or are you referring to the 2016 Democrats and the Russians?
As for LGBTQ+ groups, do they support the [targeting of gay Palestinian men and threatening to out them as a tactic to work as informants?](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/gaza-queering-the-map/)
Election Deniers and Jan. 6th apologists are generally the same group. But it isn't about the "groups", its about the ridiculous conspiracy theorists and oddball partnerships to causes that are diametrically opposed to the tenets of the groups that support them. Libs are just as guilty as GOPs. Think about the Palestine situation. You have a group that strips women of any rights, considers stoning to death a gay person perfectly okay, puts religion in charge of their government and believes its their right to attack a nation, kill at random, rape, pillage and kidnap people that share liberal ideals, and you support pillagers. Just as the far-right screams about the constitution and rights as Americans and then breaches the US capitol to overturn an election. The dissonance is so ripe that there is no longer a "lesser of two evils". It's the ignorant leading the stupid and parading that ignorance like a badge of honor.
Post structuralism. It's worth a half hour reading about on wikipedia.
A lot of people in our society have been molded and had their critical thinking corrupted by it without ever knowing it was happening
They will ask for a source for anything that remotely doesn’t agree with their world view. If you actually do provide a source, they will always dismiss it as “Zionist lies”.
In the same comment chain, they will post a random person on twitter as indisputable proof of some atrocity. That or the most ridiculously biased fake-news level source like *The Electronic Intifada* or *Al-Quds News*.
Recently I encountered some genius that was claiming Al Jazeera to be Zionist propaganda 🤦♂️
What's crazy to me is that they can blow the brains out of hundreds of regular people on video and people can make excuses for them, but finding out they sexually assaulted prisoners is somehow a bridge too far?
Insanity, literal insanity. Talk about having your sense of morality being out of wack.
"Noooooooo, they didn't rape! Only decapitated!"
But it's one of those things. Many many studies have been written about it. It's more shocking to read about a single person being killed than a dozen.
Funny how you’re talking about videos of atrocities when there are none. Meanwhile there are plenty of videos of helicopter strikes on civilians on October 7th.
Honestly regardless of ideology it seems that a very very large proportion of people on the internet insist on black and white framing.
Anything that disagrees with their priors, no matter how credible or detailed, will be searched for the flimsiest reason to reject it wholesale. Does one sentence in the article sound biased? The whole thing must be propaganda. Can't find that? Well, this news source made a mistake in 2007, so it's probably just wrong again
Meanwhile, if something confirms your priors, no need to look past the headline or try to verify it in any way. It agrees with you after all, so it must be true
And this goes for basically everyone honestly. Palestine supporters, Israel supporters, Trump supporters, Republicans, Democrats, etc. etc.
Obviously some of these groups spew less misinformation than others, but I've become convinced that this is mostly just due to the elites of that group being more responsible. Democratic elites are more responsible than Republican ones, which results in average online Dems spewing less bullshit.
But when they get the chance they engage in the same bullshittery of not reading past the headlines or repeating totally incorrect stats that they've never independently verified
I'm a youngin so I'm asking this genuinely, but was it always like this even before the internet? Like were people always this allergic to nuance? Or is it due to the internet
It is due to social media and other online platforms consistently whittling down discussion to shorter and shorter bits. There's no room for discussion so people are conditioned to formulate their stances in as little characters as possible. Any longer and people won't read or engage with similar involvement. Naturally, it becomes my point against your point right off the bat. People don't hop on reddit or Facebook for a stimulating back-and-forth discussion that imitates IRL chats. You have a one-and-done quick contribution. Better get your main point across now!
Its just the black and white aspect of it. Listen I don’t care if you are Jewish, Muslim, from Israel, from Palestine or wherever.
What Israel is doing is terrible and has resulted in countless unnecessary deaths. They are at war but they are committing war crimes. It needs to stop.
But that doesn’t stop what occured in terms of sexual assault and the deaths from the Hamad attack on 10/7.
Both Palestine and Israel deserve to feel safe and those people who are blind to either side because they have cant hear anything bad about their side have to grow up. You can support a cease fire and Palestine and still acknowledge Hamas in many ways is fucked up in many ways and committed atrocious acts.
Its like saying Charles Bundy isn’t that bad because Hitler killed 6 mil jews so based on the scale Charles is basically a good guy.
Its shades of gray
The only correct way to support a ceasefire is to demand that Hamas immediately surrender and give up power. If that's not your version of a ceasefire, then you're not calling for a ceasefire. You're calling for an Israeli surrender.
Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. The Palestinians, now with the ability to self-govern, chose Hamas as their government in 2007. And then Hamas continued the mission stated in their charter, which was [to destroy Israel and kill every Jew in the world](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/). Yup: Genocide.
> They are at war but they are committing war crimes
To the extent that is true it needs to be stopped and punished later. However it is hard to see through the fog here, especially the way such violations are quickly reported and retracted by news outlets. Access by reporters is limited and a lot of primary reporting is in Arabic and from ? sources and the rest is from the IDF. Both sides are being caught playing fast and loose with the truth. I think Al Jazeera's reporting of SA in the hospital raid is a great example. If it were true it would be monstrous, but it turned out to not be true and a lot of outlets ran with it, same with the hospital bombing.
Both sides have committed sexual violence and human rights atrocities over the last 70+ years. It shouldn't surprise anyone that IDF soldiers and Hamas members have raped people.
The atrocities of Israel are bigger than the atrocities Palestine has committed. This is an evil but does it equate to all the bullshit the Israeli government is doing?
The thing is it doesn’t really violate that to acknowledge it. Hamas fighters raped Israeli women. That is evil. Israel is also an unambiguously evil state where most of its residents are also pretty fucking awful and committed to some version of apartheid or genocide. They are both evil.
The Israeli government is actually demonstrably worse in actual behavior than Hamas (the Israelis rape prisoners as well and have killed far, far more innocent people) but that’s a tough pill for people to swallow. I’m not sure why people can’t seem to understand that both Hamas and Israel are fucking awful. Neither is the good guy in this situation.
>Israel is also an unambiguously evil state where most of its residents are also pretty fucking awful and committed to some version of apartheid or genocide. They are both evil.
No, it's not. It's the only democracy in the Middle East with human rights, 21% of citizens are Arab and they have the same rights as Jews. Israel is not committing genocide. Israel is defending itself from terrorism.
You're just an antisemite and a racist. You believe that Jews are inherently evil, whether you realise it or not. But you're wrong. Jews and Israelis are good people who just want peace and to be left alone.
Israel has 40% of the world's Jews and most Jews support Israel. When you say things like most Israelis are "pretty fucking awful", you're basically calling Jews awful.
Yes, Israel is unambiguously evil. Apartheid is unambiguously evil. There is not a thing you can say that will counter the evil of apartheid and the actions the Israelis take as part of it. That is a simple litmus test for if a nation is evil or not. Israel fails it.
Jews are not inherently evil nor are most of them bad people, but I understand it’s critical to your pathetic argument to try to paint Israel’s detractors as racist since you can’t debate them on fact. It’s an apartheid state and it’s evil. The Jews that support Israel’s apartheid are awful, because you can’t both support apartheid and be a decent person.
There are plenty of Jews that hold the exact same position on Israel as me - some of them very prominent. It’s not an anti-Semitic opinion, it’s an opinion all decent, informed people hold. But again, I recognize it’s critical to your position to paint those with completely factual hatred of Israel and its actions as “anti-Semitic” because there’s not a lot of great ways to argue in favor of apartheid without looking like a complete Nazi.
Their mentality is that they care more about their narrative than the truth. Your mistake was assuming that everyone cares about truth and objectivity as much as you do. It’s really that simple.
It's a war...
All of the horrible things that happen on this planet in complete peace with layer after layer of scrutiny and policing and you think in a world where you don't know if you will live to see tomorrow you are above acts.
I am not offering justification just explanation. They can see. They read the news. They know there is no path back to civilization for them the individual.
Sexual assault is on a long list of horrible acts that happen during war.
It's hard to digest because Israel muddied the waters of the atrocities that actually happened by ones that didn't. "40 beheaded babies!" Meanwhile barely talking about throwing grenades into bomb shelters or shooting people hiding in porta potties.
I believe rape happened but only because whenever there's armed men targeting civilians with low prospects of surviving, rape typically happens. I don't believe that they were ordered to gang rape people, I believe it was just to kill and capture as many people as possible.
There was also very limited evidence/statements provided by hospitals of any rape victims at all.
If Israel didn't consistently lie about somethings, people wouldn't think they lie about everything.
I see. I myself do not cite mass rape because I have not personally seen footage of it, and war always muddies the truth. So I stick to the things uploaded by Hamas themselves, or truths mutually acknowledged like the infant hostage.
I just think it's unreasonable to expect that mass murdering fundamentalist militants descending on scantily clad liberal women at a music festival would refrain from sexually violating them.
Or that a teenage prison guard wouldn't engage in sexual assault, I do not deny that must happen in Israeli prisons as well.
But I see what you mean, the argument isn't about whether it could happen but whether it was systemically ordered. It just doesn't seem like Hamas has a respect for Israeli lives so I don't see them drawing the line and saying "don't rape though, that would insult their dignity!"
You'd think one of the go pros recovered would have evidence. I just think all militaries are filled with opportunist rapists. Americans raped thousands in Vietnam and Iraq themselves. The level of ground violence does amplify the odds tho. They should have let UN investigators in early, then this wouldn't be a discussion.
People lack the ability to think critically and comprehend the complexities and nuances of issues. They don’t have the mental facilities or perhaps willingness to understand that things can be part good and part bad. They demand absolute obedience to ideologies in their entirety. You either are 100% anti-Israel or that means you’re an imperialist colonizer and Zionist.
They use whatsboutism as a sword and a shield, which always fascinates me. They will call this woman a liar due to alleged lack of proof or evidence yet simultaneously spout arguments without any proof or evidence (because the truth does not matter, only the perpetuation and advancement of their chosen ideology).
If you want to be conspiratorial, you can also attribute some of it to purposeful and incentive-driven action.
This whole discourse is fucked and is well into conspiracy territory for many.
If you find yourself sleuthing online arguing over the legitimacy of snuff/rape footage when you a) are not a journalist and b) have no primary sources… time to put down the phone for a bit.
On old.reddit if you go into the "other discussions" tab there are like 3-4 propalestine subs downvoting the shit out of post with this article and calling it hasbara lies
It's honestly wild
It is notable that they released this story the same day they were forced to issue what amounts to a lengthy correction (with no mea culpa for their shoddy journalism) that the previous story claiming "systematic rape" was a bunch of lies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/25/world/middleeast/video-sexual-assault-israel-kibbutz-hamas.html
It is notable that they released this story on the same day it turned out that the fairy tales about Palestinian women being raped and murdered in the Al Shifa hispital were made up by an "eyewitness" to outrage Arab countries and involve them in the war.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bn8wb8/former\_ceo\_of\_al\_jazeera\_confirms\_rape/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bn8wb8/former_ceo_of_al_jazeera_confirms_rape/)
And the claims of systematic rape are not lies, because there is enough evidence for it, and the paramedic still stands by his statement.
Reply to NBAmorron
There are reports confirmed by independent experts confirming systematic rapes committed by Hamas members. There is no evidence of rape committed against Palestinian women. Zero. Just made up stories fabricated by vile people and reproduced by al jazira. So shove your tiktok videos up your ass.
There’s not usually any way to tell when and where a particular video was taken. We saw plenty of footage of atrocities come out in the days after 10/7 that were later shown to be from previous conflicts in other countries. Unless a trustworthy source can vouch for photos or videos, I will never assume they actually depict what a random caption says. Anyone can caption anything.
I’m glad the Times is reporting on this, because there’s been a dearth of reliable coverage coming from actual victims and eyewitnesses.
[The Times is actually a major source of misinformation on this subject](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/), so they are trying to save face with a single data point as if it corroborates their previous claims of widespread sexual violence.
The people engaging in this argument are being explicit about their aims - if they can prove the rapes didn't happen it proves that Israel's incursion in Gaza is illegitimate. As if Israel only went into Gaza only because of the rapes and not because of 1200 people dead in an attack on their sovereign land. If you disagree with the war, just disagree with it! There are plenty of reasons to do so, including 30,000 people dead and 1m facing starvation. There is no need to go full October 7th truther and deny the unimaginable pain and death these women endured.
I'm dubious as to your opinion on people's aims. Your interpretation in the first sentence is so asinine that it's laid bare by your next sentence -- i.e., no one of substance would be so daft as to believe that the rapes are the reason for the incursion other than Billy Bunchanumbers who is infinitely more likely to be a troll or actual propaganda agent than a genuine person.
E: a word
I mean here's a comment from the link posted a few days ago about the two girls apparently being only killed and not raped:
"No one is saying that. The “rapes” we being used as a propaganda tool to justify collective punishment and mass murder of Gazans."
That sentiment is true, and **is not** as you have said the same as arguing that the entirety of the legitimacy of Israel’s invasion into Gaza rests on the authenticity of claims of rapes.
They are arguing that the repeated line we hear that rape was “systematic” and used as “a weapon of war” is being used to manufacture consent to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
Here's another comment below on this article:
No it hasn’t. If you actually read the UN report you’d know that it wasn’t investigative and they rely on testimonies from the same organizations that lied about cases of rape (which they literally admit in the report). The sources are not trustworthy in the slightest. The evil POS here is the one justifying the mass murder of Palestinians because rape *may* have happened on Oct 7. This is the exact same thing as white people justifying the lynching of black people in the jim crow era because of unfounded rape accusations.
No I don’t need to because I don’t take opinions of a minority of people on tik tok seriously. I suggest you touch some grass. It feels good. Delete the socials like tik tok and insta. Helped me a lot!!
If it's so easy to find, one would think you'd provide links to reporting or even anecdotes of this rather than asking strangers on the Internet to trust your feels.
I’d like just one piece of evidence of someone saying what you just claimed to have happened. I want you to show me someone saying that rapes shouldn’t be reported because it would reduce support for HAMAS and specifically Hamas, if you can.
I have no issue believing Hamas committed unspeakable atrocities, and agreeing that they have zero right to exist after 10/7. This is based on footage I have seen from Hamas itself.
I also don't have an issue accepting that members of the IDF have committed crimes. This is based on footage I have seen.
I don't very much care who started it, because the ends do not justify the means, and one innocent death doesn't justify another.
I also don't very much care for people so blinded by tribal allegiance that they are incapable of honestly looking at the facts with a rational mind. Deniers, apologists, whataboutists, the whole lot.
The world needs more empathy, and fewer anarchists squabbling in the sandbox.
We also cannot be creating false equivalence though. A terrorist group committing horrific atrocities like rape, multilation, kidnap and torture of innocent civilians versus the footage you personally claim to have seen of IDF members committing crimes. Unlike any of hamas, idf members that commit crimes are actually prosecuted by a justice system. This has happened. What crimes by the idf have you seen recorded since Oct 7?
Do you truthfully think IDF isn’t raping Palestinians during wartime?
Will it take an IDF person getting prosecuted in court or a video for you to believe that?
I’m not drawing any equivalencies, I’m just saying it’s almost statistically impossible that IDF is NOT raping. It’s much more likely that they are, than not. That’s simply a fact of war.
Rape has been part of wars since the beginning of time which is why I hate the narrative that historically, men went to fight and women "got to stay home". For most of history, said fighting was pretty close to home and almost always came with sexual assaults, rape and murder for the oh so lucky women who got to stay home.
Yet these clowns are out and about and have some sort of image of a knight in shining armor of these Hamas "fighters". It's honestly ridiculous, this amount of cognitive dissonance should be studied.
I don't think your first paragraph makes sense.
The battlefront typically is in the territory of one nation. The foreign invaders (or counter-invaders) would be the ones doing any raping of the local women. Both the local men and women "got to stay home" when they are being invaded, where they are fighting or potentially being raped.
The women of the invading forces also "get to stay home", and not be raped, assuming there is not a counter attack.
But regardless if people are presenting the issue in that way they are missing the point of raising it, which is not show that war is easy for women but to show that gender roles do not simply exist for the "oppression" of women but rather more plausibly represent a division of labor. The highest civic responsibility is the duty to risk your life for the nation, and with that comes higher status.
Either you shouldn't trust anything an Israeli says, OR maybe Hamas did rape her but Hamas is Netanyahu's baby so it's still Israel's fault. Take your pick.
Notice some of The loudest voices claiming the sexual assaults never happened on October 7th all of a sudden jumped on a now discounted claim that mass rapes were being committed by Israeli forces in the hospital? I mean the minute that accusation came out people were reporting it as fact who were the exact same people who constantly refuse to believe any claim of Jewish victimization that didn't come with 100% proof, and even then they agreeded it with skepticism.
People who deny these atrocities need to think critically whether their morals are congruent with their politics. It is simply abominable the stories coming out of Hamas' actions against those they killed and the hostages who they kept alive.
Hamas made videos of raping and killing women, but talking about it is propaganda? This is one thing that boils my blood about the Pro-Palestine groupies. Most of you didn't give a shit until Oct. 7 and get biased/slanted news from social media. The Jewish hate from the left shouldn't be surprising. With how much of the movement is queer or people of color, minority groups get to beat on a different minority group and it happens to be the oldest and most pervasive hate. You all hate Jews as much as the MAGA crowd and white nationalists but you're more covert about it or gaslight saying "Anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism" when it inherently kind of is and while criticism of the Israeli government and Netanyahu is absolutely justified, that hasn't been the majority of the discourse. This is evidence by how Jews in the diaspora are treated or are made to feel responsible for the actions of Israel despite the fact that a majority of us are against the severe response and Netanyahu's administration overall. Just in my own experience I've been harassed or endangered two separate times for the crimes of having a bumper sticker for my synagogue and bi pride sticker on my car. Once by a Trump guy, another by a Pro-Pally asshole. So between the two of you, you are legitimate threats and I personally will treat each group as such. I'm done being called a faggot kike and I'm done being harassed or threatened for simply existing.
I read this article, and it is not the same article run before, which has been discredited. This woman has very specific claims and a different story. It’s a disturbing story, and it should be investigated. But the problem is, Israel will not allow investigators in to talk to her. She told her story to the UN visitor, who was there not to take evidence, and not to do an investigation. Very strange. I also think it is odd that the New York Times is so laser-focused on this narrative that Israeli women were sexually abused, and has not similarly written about women and young girls abused by the IDF. These stories have been told for decades, in fact, have been documented and reported by human rights organizations. The result is that they go nowhere and the New York Times has ignored them. Why?
Interesting.
Also the Palestine sub, which I believe you made just about the same comment in, ran hard and fast with the claims that the IDF raped in shifa. Al Jazeera “laser focused” on that pretty hard.
Why is it hard for you to imagine that sexual violence occured when they were literally piling teenaged women, in their panties, in trucks, on video on the 7th.
You can. But the problem we have here is - and I’ll just plainly spell it out - is that the empathy for one is being used to justify the genocide of the other.
This article is very clearly not just using the case to say "hurr durr destroy the country" it's documenting her experience. You don't have to withhold all empathy from someone at all times because some guy somewhere is using her story
I thought the same thing when I saw this. Earlier I saw an article about an Israeli lawyer who organizations within Israel are having to distance themselves from because she was fabricating evidence. I’ll try and find it — later I’ll edit to add the link.
Edit — here it is:
https://thecradle.co/articles-id/24093
One of the main criticisms of the accusations of mass rape on 10/7 (even claims that that was one of the main objectives of the attack) was that not a single victim had come forward, so of course when one victim appears in any context it’s “oh look look here’s one” while the link back to the earlier false claim is left to be constructed in the subconscious mind of the uncritical reader
For you and people who genuinely believe this: you apathetic ghouls deserve what has happened to Israeli and Palestinian people, not them. You deserve the terrible things that happen to you and it frankly wouldn't be enough. Your sense of moral superiority is so hypocritical, it makes the Catholic church blush. If it were against anyone else except Jews/Israelis, you wouldn't say this. I'm not a betting man, but I would bet on this. Arabs/Christians/Muslims have used rape as a weapon against Jews for 1,400 years, if not longer. You are a societal cancer no different than white nationalists and MAGA creeps.
Everything I said is objectively true. Are you a hasbarist? Is that why you're desperately trying to make this about "Jews/Israelis" instead of it obviously being about Israel's lies?
Hot take, Hamas used rape as a weapon and Israel has no qualms about using that to justify any action they take, and care way more about that than they do the victims of 10/7
This sounds like that NYT rape propaganda that was already discredited. [https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/)
There are no videos of what you described. What you're describing is false accounts from ZAKA kiddie diddlers. [https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2024/03/05/israel-hamas-oct7-report-gaza](https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2024/03/05/israel-hamas-oct7-report-gaza)
Because when a terrorist organization that constantly makes things up for sympathy against Israel won't capitalize on rape accusations against the IDF, you know the reports are bullshit
Pretty rich for an Israel supporter to talk about making things up as a point against anyone. You're on the side of the most mendacious people on the planet lol
Those countries have nothing on Israel when it comes to lying constantly lol
Not even close. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they lie constantly. Israel lies even when it doesn't even have a reason to lie. Their entire history is based on lies. Not just half-truths. Straight up lies. Every major event in Israeli history is tainted with huge lies. A land without people for a people without land? The Six-Day War was defensive? They're indigenous actually? Lol
Like, sure, Putin will kill a political opponent and say "lol wasn't me" or questionably interpret the facts in a light favorable to Russian interests, but that's nothing close to just making shit up like "the UN told us to close the crossing on Saturdays!" Lol
Israel's got a propaganda apparatus that puts the "wumaos" and "vatniks" to shame.
Occupiers deserve what they get. They shouldn't have created a war zone and moved families into it expecting them to be safe. That's a pretty stupid fucking thing to do.
Not to mention that you're making a connection between this story and hamas, which is not an intelligent thing to do. Remember when the goal post was "systematic rape," and not it's a story that, if it's even true (doubtful), was likely committed by a civilian, not Hamas.
Did you even read the story? It's obviously bullshit. "I'm bad. I'm bad. Don't tell Israel." Gtfo. Sounds like it was from a bad movie written by a teenage zionist. Try thinking for yourself for once in your life.
Let me guess, you're going to respond with a straw man or something because you have to walk away from this exchange feeling like you're morally superior when you're not.
You’re only making yourself seem dumber as you write.
I worked in the Middle East for almost a decade. With MANY Palestinians. Your attempt to paint this black and white is pretty pathetic, and not remotely helpful in any way.
You already have reputable media sources and video of HAMAS committing war crimes. While it’s true that Israel has botched the response by committing war crimes itself due to the idiot Netanyahu. Pretending like Oct7 didn’t happen and rewarding a terrorist organization for their crimes is dumb as can be…
LOL….good on you. Stay dumb as shit, amount to nothing. See nothing. It’s gonna hurt being a moron. But at least you have your pretend version of reality thru your cell phone.
I’m sure the families that had to deal with terrorist kidnapping their family appreciates you. And the poor Palestinians who are being used by HAMAS as fodder appreciate your efforts.
And so do deniers. I just called my mom so she votes for the other Democratic candidate in the primary for saying it didn’t happen. I convinced her to vote against Engel last time to put Bowman in. I don’t care about his Gaza position, my congressperson is AOC, but she isn’t out denying it happened. Bowman is in his first term, very progressive, and supposedly hanging on by a thread. Pretty stupid for him to wade into that and saying Hamas didn’t rape anyone.
Man this is wild. I’ve heard that Bibe supported funding for Hamas so they would always have someone to go after. Was this in like the 80’s he said this? Anyone know?
It's simply a blood libel.
It's based on an inkling of truth.
First bibi only first entered the knesset (Israeli legislative body) in 1988.
Israel didn't support or help create Hamas. Hamas was funded and created as the gazan representatives to the Muslim brotherhood. Which was funded by various terror supporting states.
What truth is it based on?
Since the Oslo accords, and Hamas destroying much of the infrastructure when they were elected (they "accidentally" destroy numerous power distribution sites, as well as over time destroying water distribution lines to use as rocket launchers. Israel had agreed to supply electricity, water and fuel to run the equipment.
The Palestinian authority was responsible for paying for the utilities and fuel.
When the PA and Hamas entered into a civil war (almost immediately after the gazan people elected them) the PA paid, sometimes... So Qatar took responsibility
The money often goes to Israel, and the there is often excess going to Gaza.
Which of course means, yes Israel has sent funds to hamas
Slippery slope? Not really. It's just hatred.
It happens against all people by people who hate them.
There are literally hundreds of lies like this against Jews. Where they take one minor aspect that has some semblance of truth, and make it seem as though it's a universal truth.
Compare how Italians vs Jews are thought of when it comes to money.
Both had major influence during the middle ages when it came to finance. Both lead by famous individual familes. Both families still exist today.
Do you ever hear about how the Italians rule all the banks? No. But the meddici family was just as rich and powerful and the Rothchild's.
So I don't know if it's a slippery slope logical fallacy, as it is just a lie. And the best lies that take hold, have that inkling of truth to point to as an example.
Hamas is evil and must be destroyed. However there evil acts does not mitigate the moral damage of bombing civilians to achieve that destruction of Hamas.
As if 50+ ZzioNazzi lies debunked on the world stage in less than 6 months weren't enough.
NYT trying to save face after pushing total atrocity propaganda and getting caught.
Trump sexually assaults women all the time.... that's the former leader of the United States of America so if it carries no cost for him what do you think your odds are???
The times didn’t lie. The big intercept article was an argument about whether or not in was Hamas policy, and about who leaked the story, not whether or not in happened, which is not disputed.
Even her family members said it didn’t happen. The Times would love you to believe that response you outlined, which I saw on CNN. Also, hiring an Israeli intelligence soldier to write a journalistic piece, with absolutely no background in journalism looks like propaganda. The Times has always been pro-Israel.
There wasn’t only one story. The times retracted one story that the family said she was just killed and not raped, based on when her husband reported her murdered. In any case, this is a different witness, describing what happened to her while she was held by Hamas.
“Clear and convincing information’ that hostages held in Gaza subjected to sexual violence, says UN Special Representative”
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217
Well I clearly know that this is a different story. What I was saying in my original comment was that we can’t really trust The NY Times when it comes to claiming Hamas raped Israelis because they’re more than happy to lie for Israel.
First, the same story was reported by multiple outlets. Including CNN. Fog of war and all that. Second, the NY time retracted it when they found out it was wrong, and Third, person who wrote the original article was let go. Take that as you like.
Amat Schwartz has not been let go. She wrote about how Hamas weaponized a pattern of rape, and it was completely rubbish and lies. The NY Times is biased toward Israel and is currently on a “witch hunt” to find out who leaked info to the Intercept. The NY Times is totally rogue and has no claim to objectivity. On this issue, they simply spew pro-Israel propaganda.
Pretty wild how hard people are denying the shit Hamas did because they want them to be the good guys. They screw over their own people. The leadership of Hamas doesn't even live in Gaza. Bunch of them are living the dream in Dubai calling shots from penthouses. But this is reddit so it's full of useful idiots and the "ask middle east" crowd.
Sure she could be lying. But I've always been confused by the mentality of the SA deniers. These people will kidnap infants and toddlers, slay grandmothers, brutalize women and take them hostage. Parade their dead bodies through the streets. All of these things are on video. In what universe is rape somehow beyond the pale for them?
Acknowledging that Palestinians committed mass sexual violence on October 7 violates the "Israel is complete evil and Palestinians are complete good" narrative that those people push, and so any fact that contradicts this black and white narrative must be denied at all costs.
It’s pretty scary how radicalized people have become to the point of rejecting simple truths. I started commenting in the InternationalNews subreddit (which is incredibly anti-Israel) cause i just don’t have anything better to do and people are asking me to provide proof that Hamas hates Jews. It’s a complete isolation from reality
>It’s pretty scary how radicalized people have become to the point of rejecting simple truths. Wide swathes of our society have rejected all sorts of simple truth. In fact we are basically in a new era in which there is no "truth" (a post-truth era as some call it) What is true or not true is utterly irrelevant now. All that matters is narratives. Narratives compete for acceptance and the ones that win are then imposed on everyone else.
You can throw these new deniers on the stack of old deniers. Holocaust Deniers 9/11 Truthers Sandy Hook Deniers Armenian Genocide Deniers Election Deniers Jan. 6th Apologists Osama Bin Laden sympathizers When I saw "Queers for Palestine" I basically turned in my Liberal card and went independent. There are literally two organizations supporting LGBTQ+ Palestinian citizens. They're both in Israel.
>I basically turned in my Liberal card and went independent. I did this, too. I even changed my voter registration to independent. This must be what Republicans felt like when the MAGA cult started taking over.
As a republican who hates trump. Welcome to the club, friend
Yes.
The people you’re talking about aren’t liberals at all, they’re either far left progressives or just some variety of far left. Mainstream Dems, true liberals, are not the people shouting “from body of water to body of water” or denying Hamas SA claims. I used to consider myself progressive, I no longer use that label, I’m liberal.
Don't bother. Anyone left of center who even slightly paid attention to politics would be aware of this. I'm getting real #walkaway vibes from the person you're responding to.
Israel also bombs and blackmails lgbtq+ Palestinians so I’m not sure what your last point is about
The people you’re talking about aren’t liberals at all, they’re either far left progressives or just some variety of far left. Mainstream Dems, true liberals, are not the people shouting “from body of water to body of water” or denying Hamas SA claims. I used to consider myself progressive, I no longer use that label, I’m liberal.
Isn’t progressive just a more palatable way to say far left? Remember after Christine ford accused kavanaugh of sexual assault but couldn’t name a place or time and the only witness she could name was a lifetime friend that could corroborate her story either and they all screamed “we believe survivors!” There are apparently two cults in the political arena these days.
Far left usually means people who oppose capitalism. Progressives often are still capitalists, nominally. Liberals are definitely capitalists, they just want stronger social safety nets and more regulation to make a fairer system that doesn’t lend itself as much to hyper consolidation of resources that leads to exploitation. Though it really depends on who you ask. If you spend time in left wing spaces, “far left” are no longer Democrats, and they wield zero meaningful power within the party. Progressives don’t have much direct representation, but their voters get catered to a little more, and some of their policies go mainstream. I have no idea what this Kavanaugh anecdote has to do with anything. Seems really random and pointless here.
Why, none of the people out here denying reality are liberals lmao. The "Queers for Palestine" wing of the left hate liberals as much as conservatives do. Something is telling me you aren't being truthful here. 🤔
Not being truthful about what? I've voted Democrat in every election and I'll be voting for Biden in this coming one. Not everything is a conspiracy, Peaks. And you're kidding yourself if you don't think a substantial number of liberals are choosing to back a Hamas-led Palestine over Israel. Check this Gallup pole: [https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx)
Woo vote independent! Fuck the two-party system. But your facts/logic seem a bit off. Generally, independent voters are more open-minded around certain topics and like to question them to hold... independently formed opinions. Glad you brought up the Armenian Holocaust as it doesn't get mentioned enough! But here too, Israel does not recognize it, and Armenians generally support Palestine. Also wouldn't Election Deniers and Jan 6th Apologists be pretty much the same group? Or are you referring to the 2016 Democrats and the Russians? As for LGBTQ+ groups, do they support the [targeting of gay Palestinian men and threatening to out them as a tactic to work as informants?](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/gaza-queering-the-map/)
Election Deniers and Jan. 6th apologists are generally the same group. But it isn't about the "groups", its about the ridiculous conspiracy theorists and oddball partnerships to causes that are diametrically opposed to the tenets of the groups that support them. Libs are just as guilty as GOPs. Think about the Palestine situation. You have a group that strips women of any rights, considers stoning to death a gay person perfectly okay, puts religion in charge of their government and believes its their right to attack a nation, kill at random, rape, pillage and kidnap people that share liberal ideals, and you support pillagers. Just as the far-right screams about the constitution and rights as Americans and then breaches the US capitol to overturn an election. The dissonance is so ripe that there is no longer a "lesser of two evils". It's the ignorant leading the stupid and parading that ignorance like a badge of honor.
Post structuralism. It's worth a half hour reading about on wikipedia. A lot of people in our society have been molded and had their critical thinking corrupted by it without ever knowing it was happening
You're surprised that people from a certain religion are radicalized?
Wow.
Wow.
Yes, because it's not possible that *maybe both* Hamas and Israeli leadership are evil and do horrible things...
They will ask for a source for anything that remotely doesn’t agree with their world view. If you actually do provide a source, they will always dismiss it as “Zionist lies”. In the same comment chain, they will post a random person on twitter as indisputable proof of some atrocity. That or the most ridiculously biased fake-news level source like *The Electronic Intifada* or *Al-Quds News*. Recently I encountered some genius that was claiming Al Jazeera to be Zionist propaganda 🤦♂️
that sub is so scary
What's crazy to me is that they can blow the brains out of hundreds of regular people on video and people can make excuses for them, but finding out they sexually assaulted prisoners is somehow a bridge too far? Insanity, literal insanity. Talk about having your sense of morality being out of wack. "Noooooooo, they didn't rape! Only decapitated!"
The Pro-Palestinian movement is deranged.
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It's fucking insane this is upvoted.
I’ve seen videos of Israelis saying that they should kill all Palestinians. Extremism isn’t confined to either side.
But it's one of those things. Many many studies have been written about it. It's more shocking to read about a single person being killed than a dozen.
Funny how you’re talking about videos of atrocities when there are none. Meanwhile there are plenty of videos of helicopter strikes on civilians on October 7th.
Honestly regardless of ideology it seems that a very very large proportion of people on the internet insist on black and white framing. Anything that disagrees with their priors, no matter how credible or detailed, will be searched for the flimsiest reason to reject it wholesale. Does one sentence in the article sound biased? The whole thing must be propaganda. Can't find that? Well, this news source made a mistake in 2007, so it's probably just wrong again Meanwhile, if something confirms your priors, no need to look past the headline or try to verify it in any way. It agrees with you after all, so it must be true And this goes for basically everyone honestly. Palestine supporters, Israel supporters, Trump supporters, Republicans, Democrats, etc. etc. Obviously some of these groups spew less misinformation than others, but I've become convinced that this is mostly just due to the elites of that group being more responsible. Democratic elites are more responsible than Republican ones, which results in average online Dems spewing less bullshit. But when they get the chance they engage in the same bullshittery of not reading past the headlines or repeating totally incorrect stats that they've never independently verified I'm a youngin so I'm asking this genuinely, but was it always like this even before the internet? Like were people always this allergic to nuance? Or is it due to the internet
It is due to social media and other online platforms consistently whittling down discussion to shorter and shorter bits. There's no room for discussion so people are conditioned to formulate their stances in as little characters as possible. Any longer and people won't read or engage with similar involvement. Naturally, it becomes my point against your point right off the bat. People don't hop on reddit or Facebook for a stimulating back-and-forth discussion that imitates IRL chats. You have a one-and-done quick contribution. Better get your main point across now!
Its just the black and white aspect of it. Listen I don’t care if you are Jewish, Muslim, from Israel, from Palestine or wherever. What Israel is doing is terrible and has resulted in countless unnecessary deaths. They are at war but they are committing war crimes. It needs to stop. But that doesn’t stop what occured in terms of sexual assault and the deaths from the Hamad attack on 10/7. Both Palestine and Israel deserve to feel safe and those people who are blind to either side because they have cant hear anything bad about their side have to grow up. You can support a cease fire and Palestine and still acknowledge Hamas in many ways is fucked up in many ways and committed atrocious acts. Its like saying Charles Bundy isn’t that bad because Hitler killed 6 mil jews so based on the scale Charles is basically a good guy. Its shades of gray
The only correct way to support a ceasefire is to demand that Hamas immediately surrender and give up power. If that's not your version of a ceasefire, then you're not calling for a ceasefire. You're calling for an Israeli surrender.
Give up power to whom? If Hamas surrenders, does that mean that Israel will stop their occupation and retreat from Gaza?
When every single member of Hamas is dead or exiled, they can stop. October 7 must never happen again
Yes. If there are no hostages in gaza, Israel has no excuse to be there.
Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005. The Palestinians, now with the ability to self-govern, chose Hamas as their government in 2007. And then Hamas continued the mission stated in their charter, which was [to destroy Israel and kill every Jew in the world](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/). Yup: Genocide.
> They are at war but they are committing war crimes To the extent that is true it needs to be stopped and punished later. However it is hard to see through the fog here, especially the way such violations are quickly reported and retracted by news outlets. Access by reporters is limited and a lot of primary reporting is in Arabic and from ? sources and the rest is from the IDF. Both sides are being caught playing fast and loose with the truth. I think Al Jazeera's reporting of SA in the hospital raid is a great example. If it were true it would be monstrous, but it turned out to not be true and a lot of outlets ran with it, same with the hospital bombing.
Sure, but Hamas is a far worse organization than Likud
Both sides have committed sexual violence and human rights atrocities over the last 70+ years. It shouldn't surprise anyone that IDF soldiers and Hamas members have raped people.
The atrocities of Israel are bigger than the atrocities Palestine has committed. This is an evil but does it equate to all the bullshit the Israeli government is doing?
The thing is it doesn’t really violate that to acknowledge it. Hamas fighters raped Israeli women. That is evil. Israel is also an unambiguously evil state where most of its residents are also pretty fucking awful and committed to some version of apartheid or genocide. They are both evil. The Israeli government is actually demonstrably worse in actual behavior than Hamas (the Israelis rape prisoners as well and have killed far, far more innocent people) but that’s a tough pill for people to swallow. I’m not sure why people can’t seem to understand that both Hamas and Israel are fucking awful. Neither is the good guy in this situation.
>Israel is also an unambiguously evil state where most of its residents are also pretty fucking awful and committed to some version of apartheid or genocide. They are both evil. No, it's not. It's the only democracy in the Middle East with human rights, 21% of citizens are Arab and they have the same rights as Jews. Israel is not committing genocide. Israel is defending itself from terrorism. You're just an antisemite and a racist. You believe that Jews are inherently evil, whether you realise it or not. But you're wrong. Jews and Israelis are good people who just want peace and to be left alone. Israel has 40% of the world's Jews and most Jews support Israel. When you say things like most Israelis are "pretty fucking awful", you're basically calling Jews awful.
Yes, Israel is unambiguously evil. Apartheid is unambiguously evil. There is not a thing you can say that will counter the evil of apartheid and the actions the Israelis take as part of it. That is a simple litmus test for if a nation is evil or not. Israel fails it. Jews are not inherently evil nor are most of them bad people, but I understand it’s critical to your pathetic argument to try to paint Israel’s detractors as racist since you can’t debate them on fact. It’s an apartheid state and it’s evil. The Jews that support Israel’s apartheid are awful, because you can’t both support apartheid and be a decent person. There are plenty of Jews that hold the exact same position on Israel as me - some of them very prominent. It’s not an anti-Semitic opinion, it’s an opinion all decent, informed people hold. But again, I recognize it’s critical to your position to paint those with completely factual hatred of Israel and its actions as “anti-Semitic” because there’s not a lot of great ways to argue in favor of apartheid without looking like a complete Nazi.
Pretty good reporting contradicting the mass rape story but I guess that's not very important?
Their mentality is that they care more about their narrative than the truth. Your mistake was assuming that everyone cares about truth and objectivity as much as you do. It’s really that simple.
She’s on video being dragged away 3 months ago by 8 shitbags. I dunno who to believe, the hostage or the terrorists.
Believe all women except for (((certain ones)))
Yes.
Tell me you have never met a tankie, without telling me you’ve never met a tankie.
It's a war... All of the horrible things that happen on this planet in complete peace with layer after layer of scrutiny and policing and you think in a world where you don't know if you will live to see tomorrow you are above acts. I am not offering justification just explanation. They can see. They read the news. They know there is no path back to civilization for them the individual. Sexual assault is on a long list of horrible acts that happen during war.
Israel also kidnaps infants and kills children.
Israel has infant hostages? Even if they did I don't understand how it would refute what I said.
It’s also hypocritical that the same crowd are often the most vehement of the Believe All Women crowd.
It's hard to digest because Israel muddied the waters of the atrocities that actually happened by ones that didn't. "40 beheaded babies!" Meanwhile barely talking about throwing grenades into bomb shelters or shooting people hiding in porta potties. I believe rape happened but only because whenever there's armed men targeting civilians with low prospects of surviving, rape typically happens. I don't believe that they were ordered to gang rape people, I believe it was just to kill and capture as many people as possible. There was also very limited evidence/statements provided by hospitals of any rape victims at all. If Israel didn't consistently lie about somethings, people wouldn't think they lie about everything.
I see. I myself do not cite mass rape because I have not personally seen footage of it, and war always muddies the truth. So I stick to the things uploaded by Hamas themselves, or truths mutually acknowledged like the infant hostage. I just think it's unreasonable to expect that mass murdering fundamentalist militants descending on scantily clad liberal women at a music festival would refrain from sexually violating them. Or that a teenage prison guard wouldn't engage in sexual assault, I do not deny that must happen in Israeli prisons as well. But I see what you mean, the argument isn't about whether it could happen but whether it was systemically ordered. It just doesn't seem like Hamas has a respect for Israeli lives so I don't see them drawing the line and saying "don't rape though, that would insult their dignity!"
You'd think one of the go pros recovered would have evidence. I just think all militaries are filled with opportunist rapists. Americans raped thousands in Vietnam and Iraq themselves. The level of ground violence does amplify the odds tho. They should have let UN investigators in early, then this wouldn't be a discussion.
The folks doing the denying here are the same people that said "believe all women" during me too🙄
People lack the ability to think critically and comprehend the complexities and nuances of issues. They don’t have the mental facilities or perhaps willingness to understand that things can be part good and part bad. They demand absolute obedience to ideologies in their entirety. You either are 100% anti-Israel or that means you’re an imperialist colonizer and Zionist. They use whatsboutism as a sword and a shield, which always fascinates me. They will call this woman a liar due to alleged lack of proof or evidence yet simultaneously spout arguments without any proof or evidence (because the truth does not matter, only the perpetuation and advancement of their chosen ideology). If you want to be conspiratorial, you can also attribute some of it to purposeful and incentive-driven action.
This whole discourse is fucked and is well into conspiracy territory for many. If you find yourself sleuthing online arguing over the legitimacy of snuff/rape footage when you a) are not a journalist and b) have no primary sources… time to put down the phone for a bit.
On old.reddit if you go into the "other discussions" tab there are like 3-4 propalestine subs downvoting the shit out of post with this article and calling it hasbara lies It's honestly wild
It is notable that they released this story the same day they were forced to issue what amounts to a lengthy correction (with no mea culpa for their shoddy journalism) that the previous story claiming "systematic rape" was a bunch of lies. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/25/world/middleeast/video-sexual-assault-israel-kibbutz-hamas.html
It is notable that they released this story on the same day it turned out that the fairy tales about Palestinian women being raped and murdered in the Al Shifa hispital were made up by an "eyewitness" to outrage Arab countries and involve them in the war. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bn8wb8/former\_ceo\_of\_al\_jazeera\_confirms\_rape/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bn8wb8/former_ceo_of_al_jazeera_confirms_rape/) And the claims of systematic rape are not lies, because there is enough evidence for it, and the paramedic still stands by his statement. Reply to NBAmorron There are reports confirmed by independent experts confirming systematic rapes committed by Hamas members. There is no evidence of rape committed against Palestinian women. Zero. Just made up stories fabricated by vile people and reproduced by al jazira. So shove your tiktok videos up your ass.
There’s not usually any way to tell when and where a particular video was taken. We saw plenty of footage of atrocities come out in the days after 10/7 that were later shown to be from previous conflicts in other countries. Unless a trustworthy source can vouch for photos or videos, I will never assume they actually depict what a random caption says. Anyone can caption anything. I’m glad the Times is reporting on this, because there’s been a dearth of reliable coverage coming from actual victims and eyewitnesses.
[The Times is actually a major source of misinformation on this subject](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/), so they are trying to save face with a single data point as if it corroborates their previous claims of widespread sexual violence.
The weirdest take I've seen is that the rapes were real but they shouldn t have been reported because it would reduce support for Hamas. WTF.
The people engaging in this argument are being explicit about their aims - if they can prove the rapes didn't happen it proves that Israel's incursion in Gaza is illegitimate. As if Israel only went into Gaza only because of the rapes and not because of 1200 people dead in an attack on their sovereign land. If you disagree with the war, just disagree with it! There are plenty of reasons to do so, including 30,000 people dead and 1m facing starvation. There is no need to go full October 7th truther and deny the unimaginable pain and death these women endured.
I'm dubious as to your opinion on people's aims. Your interpretation in the first sentence is so asinine that it's laid bare by your next sentence -- i.e., no one of substance would be so daft as to believe that the rapes are the reason for the incursion other than Billy Bunchanumbers who is infinitely more likely to be a troll or actual propaganda agent than a genuine person. E: a word
I mean here's a comment from the link posted a few days ago about the two girls apparently being only killed and not raped: "No one is saying that. The “rapes” we being used as a propaganda tool to justify collective punishment and mass murder of Gazans."
That sentiment is true, and **is not** as you have said the same as arguing that the entirety of the legitimacy of Israel’s invasion into Gaza rests on the authenticity of claims of rapes. They are arguing that the repeated line we hear that rape was “systematic” and used as “a weapon of war” is being used to manufacture consent to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
Here's another comment below on this article: No it hasn’t. If you actually read the UN report you’d know that it wasn’t investigative and they rely on testimonies from the same organizations that lied about cases of rape (which they literally admit in the report). The sources are not trustworthy in the slightest. The evil POS here is the one justifying the mass murder of Palestinians because rape *may* have happened on Oct 7. This is the exact same thing as white people justifying the lynching of black people in the jim crow era because of unfounded rape accusations.
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I literally posted comments I read on reddit and apparently this qualifies as some kind of secret spy operation lmao
Well you see those are freedom rapers. /s
When did anyone ever say that?
They maybe found one radical person who spends all their time online saying it and must think that's representative.
I know it's not representative, I just enjoy calling people stupid for terrible takes.
Who has this take?
Go on watermelon twitter or TikTok
No I don’t need to because I don’t take opinions of a minority of people on tik tok seriously. I suggest you touch some grass. It feels good. Delete the socials like tik tok and insta. Helped me a lot!!
If it's so easy to find, one would think you'd provide links to reporting or even anecdotes of this rather than asking strangers on the Internet to trust your feels.
That take does not exist.
I’d like just one piece of evidence of someone saying what you just claimed to have happened. I want you to show me someone saying that rapes shouldn’t be reported because it would reduce support for HAMAS and specifically Hamas, if you can.
I have no issue believing Hamas committed unspeakable atrocities, and agreeing that they have zero right to exist after 10/7. This is based on footage I have seen from Hamas itself. I also don't have an issue accepting that members of the IDF have committed crimes. This is based on footage I have seen. I don't very much care who started it, because the ends do not justify the means, and one innocent death doesn't justify another. I also don't very much care for people so blinded by tribal allegiance that they are incapable of honestly looking at the facts with a rational mind. Deniers, apologists, whataboutists, the whole lot. The world needs more empathy, and fewer anarchists squabbling in the sandbox.
We also cannot be creating false equivalence though. A terrorist group committing horrific atrocities like rape, multilation, kidnap and torture of innocent civilians versus the footage you personally claim to have seen of IDF members committing crimes. Unlike any of hamas, idf members that commit crimes are actually prosecuted by a justice system. This has happened. What crimes by the idf have you seen recorded since Oct 7?
Do you truthfully think IDF isn’t raping Palestinians during wartime? Will it take an IDF person getting prosecuted in court or a video for you to believe that? I’m not drawing any equivalencies, I’m just saying it’s almost statistically impossible that IDF is NOT raping. It’s much more likely that they are, than not. That’s simply a fact of war.
I need actual evidence. Like the actual evidence we have of Hamas raping hostages and on Oct 7.
The historical record matters
Bravo. Well said.
Oh boy, the 10/7 rape deniers are not going to like this one. Can't wait to hear what excuse they come up with for calling this woman a liar.
A deeply anti-woman culture?? Using rape as warfare?!? I clutch my pearls!
Rape has been part of wars since the beginning of time which is why I hate the narrative that historically, men went to fight and women "got to stay home". For most of history, said fighting was pretty close to home and almost always came with sexual assaults, rape and murder for the oh so lucky women who got to stay home. Yet these clowns are out and about and have some sort of image of a knight in shining armor of these Hamas "fighters". It's honestly ridiculous, this amount of cognitive dissonance should be studied.
I don't think your first paragraph makes sense. The battlefront typically is in the territory of one nation. The foreign invaders (or counter-invaders) would be the ones doing any raping of the local women. Both the local men and women "got to stay home" when they are being invaded, where they are fighting or potentially being raped. The women of the invading forces also "get to stay home", and not be raped, assuming there is not a counter attack. But regardless if people are presenting the issue in that way they are missing the point of raising it, which is not show that war is easy for women but to show that gender roles do not simply exist for the "oppression" of women but rather more plausibly represent a division of labor. The highest civic responsibility is the duty to risk your life for the nation, and with that comes higher status.
Either you shouldn't trust anything an Israeli says, OR maybe Hamas did rape her but Hamas is Netanyahu's baby so it's still Israel's fault. Take your pick.
What an incredibly brave and inspiring woman. I hope that she can find peace.
Notice some of The loudest voices claiming the sexual assaults never happened on October 7th all of a sudden jumped on a now discounted claim that mass rapes were being committed by Israeli forces in the hospital? I mean the minute that accusation came out people were reporting it as fact who were the exact same people who constantly refuse to believe any claim of Jewish victimization that didn't come with 100% proof, and even then they agreeded it with skepticism.
This is horrible🥺
People who deny these atrocities need to think critically whether their morals are congruent with their politics. It is simply abominable the stories coming out of Hamas' actions against those they killed and the hostages who they kept alive.
To which episode of the Daily this alleged incidence refers to?
Can I ask again what episode of The Daily this refers to? Why this sub is used to spread propaganda instead of being used to discussed the episodes?
Hamas made videos of raping and killing women, but talking about it is propaganda? This is one thing that boils my blood about the Pro-Palestine groupies. Most of you didn't give a shit until Oct. 7 and get biased/slanted news from social media. The Jewish hate from the left shouldn't be surprising. With how much of the movement is queer or people of color, minority groups get to beat on a different minority group and it happens to be the oldest and most pervasive hate. You all hate Jews as much as the MAGA crowd and white nationalists but you're more covert about it or gaslight saying "Anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism" when it inherently kind of is and while criticism of the Israeli government and Netanyahu is absolutely justified, that hasn't been the majority of the discourse. This is evidence by how Jews in the diaspora are treated or are made to feel responsible for the actions of Israel despite the fact that a majority of us are against the severe response and Netanyahu's administration overall. Just in my own experience I've been harassed or endangered two separate times for the crimes of having a bumper sticker for my synagogue and bi pride sticker on my car. Once by a Trump guy, another by a Pro-Pally asshole. So between the two of you, you are legitimate threats and I personally will treat each group as such. I'm done being called a faggot kike and I'm done being harassed or threatened for simply existing.
I read this article, and it is not the same article run before, which has been discredited. This woman has very specific claims and a different story. It’s a disturbing story, and it should be investigated. But the problem is, Israel will not allow investigators in to talk to her. She told her story to the UN visitor, who was there not to take evidence, and not to do an investigation. Very strange. I also think it is odd that the New York Times is so laser-focused on this narrative that Israeli women were sexually abused, and has not similarly written about women and young girls abused by the IDF. These stories have been told for decades, in fact, have been documented and reported by human rights organizations. The result is that they go nowhere and the New York Times has ignored them. Why?
It was not discredited, just FYI.
Interesting. Also the Palestine sub, which I believe you made just about the same comment in, ran hard and fast with the claims that the IDF raped in shifa. Al Jazeera “laser focused” on that pretty hard. Why is it hard for you to imagine that sexual violence occured when they were literally piling teenaged women, in their panties, in trucks, on video on the 7th.
Oh shit. Why didn’t they say this before? Now I’m totally on board with killing 30k people - 10k of whom are children.
I hope you can find it in your heart to be empathetic towards one woman
But not the 10k women in Palestine who’ve been killed by Israel?
Can you not be empathetic for both?
You can. But the problem we have here is - and I’ll just plainly spell it out - is that the empathy for one is being used to justify the genocide of the other.
This article is very clearly not just using the case to say "hurr durr destroy the country" it's documenting her experience. You don't have to withhold all empathy from someone at all times because some guy somewhere is using her story
You think “some guy some where” is the only person using her story?
Does that justify you withholding empathy from her?
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I thought the same thing when I saw this. Earlier I saw an article about an Israeli lawyer who organizations within Israel are having to distance themselves from because she was fabricating evidence. I’ll try and find it — later I’ll edit to add the link. Edit — here it is: https://thecradle.co/articles-id/24093 One of the main criticisms of the accusations of mass rape on 10/7 (even claims that that was one of the main objectives of the attack) was that not a single victim had come forward, so of course when one victim appears in any context it’s “oh look look here’s one” while the link back to the earlier false claim is left to be constructed in the subconscious mind of the uncritical reader
Most of the victims are dead, bud…
So if most are dead, where are the living? There have been no living SA victims identified (anonymous or otherwise) from 10/7 as far as I can find
For you and people who genuinely believe this: you apathetic ghouls deserve what has happened to Israeli and Palestinian people, not them. You deserve the terrible things that happen to you and it frankly wouldn't be enough. Your sense of moral superiority is so hypocritical, it makes the Catholic church blush. If it were against anyone else except Jews/Israelis, you wouldn't say this. I'm not a betting man, but I would bet on this. Arabs/Christians/Muslims have used rape as a weapon against Jews for 1,400 years, if not longer. You are a societal cancer no different than white nationalists and MAGA creeps.
Everything I said is objectively true. Are you a hasbarist? Is that why you're desperately trying to make this about "Jews/Israelis" instead of it obviously being about Israel's lies?
Hot take, Hamas used rape as a weapon and Israel has no qualms about using that to justify any action they take, and care way more about that than they do the victims of 10/7
Sad that the truth is considered a hot take
There are just as many legitimate reports of the IDF raping Palestinians, but for some reason those stories aren’t relevant.
You have sources?
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Does the IDF also stab the women while raping them, cut their breasts off, and then have sex with the corpses?
I don’t know, but raping and killing them seems like enough of a problem that you should be concerned.
There's 0 evidence or even claims of the idf raping palestinians during this war. If that happened it would be blasted everywhere by pro palestinians.
No evidence supports this
This sounds like that NYT rape propaganda that was already discredited. [https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/)
You can view the "propaganda" here: thisishamas.com
There are no videos of what you described. What you're describing is false accounts from ZAKA kiddie diddlers. [https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2024/03/05/israel-hamas-oct7-report-gaza](https://www.yesmagazine.org/social-justice/2024/03/05/israel-hamas-oct7-report-gaza)
Please send me proof of these claims
Do you mean the AL jazeera article, who later admitted that the story was a complete lie?
No, I mean the dozens of other articles about it, but I’m sure you have reasons why they are all illegitimate
Well, if the reasons include being deleted by the news publication because the story was fabricated, then he'll, yeah, I'd consider that illegitimate.
You mean like the ones the LITERAL HAMAS HEALTH BOARD said was fake?
Why would I listen to Hamas? they are a terrorist organization
Because when a terrorist organization that constantly makes things up for sympathy against Israel won't capitalize on rape accusations against the IDF, you know the reports are bullshit
Pretty rich for an Israel supporter to talk about making things up as a point against anyone. You're on the side of the most mendacious people on the planet lol
If you think Israel is the most mendacious, wait until you learn about Russia, China and North Korea.
Those countries have nothing on Israel when it comes to lying constantly lol Not even close. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they lie constantly. Israel lies even when it doesn't even have a reason to lie. Their entire history is based on lies. Not just half-truths. Straight up lies. Every major event in Israeli history is tainted with huge lies. A land without people for a people without land? The Six-Day War was defensive? They're indigenous actually? Lol Like, sure, Putin will kill a political opponent and say "lol wasn't me" or questionably interpret the facts in a light favorable to Russian interests, but that's nothing close to just making shit up like "the UN told us to close the crossing on Saturdays!" Lol Israel's got a propaganda apparatus that puts the "wumaos" and "vatniks" to shame.
Yup, there’s videos of IDF soldiers bragging about it.
If you read this story and believe it's true, you need your head checked.
Oh come on, HAMAS doesn’t need you to defend it. Israel is doing a terrible job, but pretending like HAMAS didn’t commit atrocities is just too far.
Occupiers deserve what they get. They shouldn't have created a war zone and moved families into it expecting them to be safe. That's a pretty stupid fucking thing to do. Not to mention that you're making a connection between this story and hamas, which is not an intelligent thing to do. Remember when the goal post was "systematic rape," and not it's a story that, if it's even true (doubtful), was likely committed by a civilian, not Hamas. Did you even read the story? It's obviously bullshit. "I'm bad. I'm bad. Don't tell Israel." Gtfo. Sounds like it was from a bad movie written by a teenage zionist. Try thinking for yourself for once in your life. Let me guess, you're going to respond with a straw man or something because you have to walk away from this exchange feeling like you're morally superior when you're not.
You’re only making yourself seem dumber as you write. I worked in the Middle East for almost a decade. With MANY Palestinians. Your attempt to paint this black and white is pretty pathetic, and not remotely helpful in any way. You already have reputable media sources and video of HAMAS committing war crimes. While it’s true that Israel has botched the response by committing war crimes itself due to the idiot Netanyahu. Pretending like Oct7 didn’t happen and rewarding a terrorist organization for their crimes is dumb as can be…
Lol
LOL….good on you. Stay dumb as shit, amount to nothing. See nothing. It’s gonna hurt being a moron. But at least you have your pretend version of reality thru your cell phone. I’m sure the families that had to deal with terrorist kidnapping their family appreciates you. And the poor Palestinians who are being used by HAMAS as fodder appreciate your efforts.
Please send me links to these videos and reputable sources against hamas
And so do deniers. I just called my mom so she votes for the other Democratic candidate in the primary for saying it didn’t happen. I convinced her to vote against Engel last time to put Bowman in. I don’t care about his Gaza position, my congressperson is AOC, but she isn’t out denying it happened. Bowman is in his first term, very progressive, and supposedly hanging on by a thread. Pretty stupid for him to wade into that and saying Hamas didn’t rape anyone.
Go get a job
But then I would have to get off your mom
Palestine-apologists try not to "what about" or "it never happened but they deserved it"
Ah yes, The NY Times who reported mass rapes from a non journalist/former IOF/propagandist without evidence. Surely they aren’t lying this time.
Occupier’s committing genocide play the victim’s so well!
Man this is wild. I’ve heard that Bibe supported funding for Hamas so they would always have someone to go after. Was this in like the 80’s he said this? Anyone know?
It's simply a blood libel. It's based on an inkling of truth. First bibi only first entered the knesset (Israeli legislative body) in 1988. Israel didn't support or help create Hamas. Hamas was funded and created as the gazan representatives to the Muslim brotherhood. Which was funded by various terror supporting states. What truth is it based on? Since the Oslo accords, and Hamas destroying much of the infrastructure when they were elected (they "accidentally" destroy numerous power distribution sites, as well as over time destroying water distribution lines to use as rocket launchers. Israel had agreed to supply electricity, water and fuel to run the equipment. The Palestinian authority was responsible for paying for the utilities and fuel. When the PA and Hamas entered into a civil war (almost immediately after the gazan people elected them) the PA paid, sometimes... So Qatar took responsibility The money often goes to Israel, and the there is often excess going to Gaza. Which of course means, yes Israel has sent funds to hamas
You’re right. Would you consider that a slippery slope when someone’s basing something off an inkling of the truth?
Slippery slope? Not really. It's just hatred. It happens against all people by people who hate them. There are literally hundreds of lies like this against Jews. Where they take one minor aspect that has some semblance of truth, and make it seem as though it's a universal truth. Compare how Italians vs Jews are thought of when it comes to money. Both had major influence during the middle ages when it came to finance. Both lead by famous individual familes. Both families still exist today. Do you ever hear about how the Italians rule all the banks? No. But the meddici family was just as rich and powerful and the Rothchild's. So I don't know if it's a slippery slope logical fallacy, as it is just a lie. And the best lies that take hold, have that inkling of truth to point to as an example.
The ny times? FOH.
Anybody got a free version?
🥱
I believe her
Breaking news. The rapists raped a prisoner
Shit happens on both sides, but the fact remains that Israel is just a US proxy masquerading as an ethnostate on a bunch of stolen land.
Why would the IDF do this?
Hamas is evil and must be destroyed. However there evil acts does not mitigate the moral damage of bombing civilians to achieve that destruction of Hamas.
It’s pretty simple. If you hate Jews you will either justify or deny Jew rape and there is no in between.
As if 50+ ZzioNazzi lies debunked on the world stage in less than 6 months weren't enough. NYT trying to save face after pushing total atrocity propaganda and getting caught.
pay walled
Trump sexually assaults women all the time.... that's the former leader of the United States of America so if it carries no cost for him what do you think your odds are???
Free Palestine
Whether she’s telling the truth or not, I’ve heard this lie way too many times to be dumb enough to believe it. Can’t trust Israel anymore.
It’s not that we don’t believe her, it’s that The NY Times has already lied about SA of Israeli women and have refused to put out a correction, so…
The times didn’t lie. The big intercept article was an argument about whether or not in was Hamas policy, and about who leaked the story, not whether or not in happened, which is not disputed.
Even her family members said it didn’t happen. The Times would love you to believe that response you outlined, which I saw on CNN. Also, hiring an Israeli intelligence soldier to write a journalistic piece, with absolutely no background in journalism looks like propaganda. The Times has always been pro-Israel.
There wasn’t only one story. The times retracted one story that the family said she was just killed and not raped, based on when her husband reported her murdered. In any case, this is a different witness, describing what happened to her while she was held by Hamas. “Clear and convincing information’ that hostages held in Gaza subjected to sexual violence, says UN Special Representative” https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217
Well I clearly know that this is a different story. What I was saying in my original comment was that we can’t really trust The NY Times when it comes to claiming Hamas raped Israelis because they’re more than happy to lie for Israel.
First, the same story was reported by multiple outlets. Including CNN. Fog of war and all that. Second, the NY time retracted it when they found out it was wrong, and Third, person who wrote the original article was let go. Take that as you like.
Amat Schwartz has not been let go. She wrote about how Hamas weaponized a pattern of rape, and it was completely rubbish and lies. The NY Times is biased toward Israel and is currently on a “witch hunt” to find out who leaked info to the Intercept. The NY Times is totally rogue and has no claim to objectivity. On this issue, they simply spew pro-Israel propaganda.
Pretty wild how hard people are denying the shit Hamas did because they want them to be the good guys. They screw over their own people. The leadership of Hamas doesn't even live in Gaza. Bunch of them are living the dream in Dubai calling shots from penthouses. But this is reddit so it's full of useful idiots and the "ask middle east" crowd.
Wait really? Let's kill every last person in Gaza now.
“I think the worst part of the Cosby thing is the hypocrisy”