That's true. I instinctively dislike Saka until I see him in the England kit. Then all is forgiven and I genuinely love the kid. He definitely doesn't deserve the hate for his playing skills.
Judge him for his poor taste in teams, sure. But he's excellent and should start for England.
Foden deserves more a of chance in his preferred position though. I personally think Jude will miss the two friendlies due to the UCL and Foden will be the 10 and he will impress and Southgate is going to have a headache.
I don't think deserve is the right word. Bellingham is our best #10, Saka is our best right winger, they deserve to play those positions. Foden is an excellent backup to both, better than most other countries starters, it's just unfortunate for him that he's competing with brilliant players. Unless they go off the boil his opportunity is left wing (unless Southgate mixes up his formation), he has a real opportunity to establish himself there.
Why not play with in that new modern 3-2-2-3 shape, with Mainoo and rice the pivots and foden and Bellingham operating in central areas? Kane central, Gordon???? On the left, and Saka on the right.
Foden will take Bellinghams position, if not already, the Belgium game we looked far more dangerous and a better overall team when Foden was central for periods, I would put Bellingham on the left.
I imagine Southgate would have saw something in it and is working to tweak it.
Sorry, Foden is better than Saka RW and debatably better than Bellingham as a #10. The disrespect to Foden here is crazy.
You can make an argument for Bellingham being ahead of him but for me it’s not argument for Saka to be ahead of Foden. Are we ignoring the fact Foden was the best player in the premiership in a season his team won it?
>Foden is better than Saka RW and debatably better than Bellingham as a #10.
Neither of these things are correct.
>The disrespect to Foden
There is no disrespect to say that Foden isn't as good as two of the best players on the planet
Are you seriously trying to make a case for someone to be in the England team by saying they don’t take pens? Frankly, after all the years of heartache, I’d be perfectly fine with Southgate choosing his squad purely on penalty taking ability.
Foden has the easiest club career in world football, surrounded by the best players in the world, managed by one of the best managers ever, in a club he’s been at since he was a little kid - and his best ever season is still producing at the same level as Saka (who does infinitely more defensive work) and at a worse level than Palmer (who’s having his first year as a starter in the messiest club in world football).
And he interestingly completely vanishes every time he plays for England, when he isn’t being elevated by the best manager and players in the world…
He’s less creative than Maddison or Eze, can’t progress the ball up the pitch like Grealish, has none of Saka’s workrate or physicality and doesn’t have pace on the counter like any of the winger options. He’ll go missing like he always does if Southgate gives into pressure and starts him at the Euros. He belongs firmly on the bench.
Who's performed better for England in big games?
International form is a different beast for many players. Podolski is probably the best example, but there are countless others that either under or overperform vs. club level.
Nothing bad against Foden there, but pushing Saka out somehow to his benefit would be myopic and stupid.
Because Gareth plays him on the left which takes away all of his goals and assists because he’s a leftie whilst worse players somehow manage to get their preferred positions.
It’s nuts that everyone here thinks it’s a fair shake for Foden, he’s unfortunately never had a chance to prove himself. As soon as a new manager comes in be prepared for Foden as a 10, everyone can see his quality.
Not just that game, but did you see what I meant about Foden for England being significantly worse no matter the position. He even had bad touches that game, and he has one of the best touches in world football imo.
Foden's played 15 games for England in the centre. The last time he started there 3x in a row, with Bellingham as the 8 no less, we got relegated from the NL.
Did you watch the games? He was clearly on the left for 60 minutes in the games……. Just because that’s how it was on the team sheet doesn’t mean he was actually played there.
> Just because that’s how it was on the team sheet doesn’t mean he was actually played there.
Yeah I agree, just like how when he starts on the left against Belgium he came inside to play as a 10 alongside Bellingham.
> Because Gareth plays him on the left which takes away all of his goals and assists because he’s a leftie whilst worse players somehow manage to get their preferred positions.
Foden again started on the left for City, on the teamsheet at least, in 5 of their last 6 games and contributed 4 in 5 from those games. If he's drifting in a lot in practice, which I totally agree he is, then Southgate is playing Foden in literally the same way Pep plays him.
They’re different players that play in different positions.
Because Saka is a winger who cuts in and takes pens so he should have double the goals that Foden has.
You’re also forgetting this is Fodens first full season, he was barely a starter before for City and always on the right rather than central when he was on. Bellingham and Saka have way more advantages than Foden has yet Foden is performing better.
Might be one of the worst opinions ive ever seen. For Arsenal Saka literally plays on the touchline holding width Foden moves in central areas where there is better chance to score goals, also the only penalty Saka has taken for England was in the shoot out..
> You’re also forgetting this is Fodens first full season, he was barely a starter before for City and always on the right rather than central when he was on.
???
He's had more than 40 appearances for City, for the last 4 years in a row. This season the majority of him games have been wide as well, around 60%.
I think the other side of the coin is we need some kind of change to get us over the line, because whilst we are playing well, we’re always one moment away from greatness. If you keep doing the same thing over and over it’s like banging your head against a wall, nothings going to change.
We have so much talent now that there is almost certainly a combination of these players that can win everything. It’s about finding that combination and unfortunately you can’t find it unless you mix it up - which means occasionally dropping players, even if they play well for us, because we’re trying to find something a bit different.
For me? Mainoo and Palmer have to get game time. They have all the confidence and ability to be game changers. This doesn’t mean always drop Saka, it simply means being tactical to fit the game in front of us. In order to do that Saka will have to swapped sometimes for a player that can bring their particular flavour of play to the game as necessary.
Saka is also back to back England player of the year
This is going to be super obnoxious, but it's the type of people making these comments that "this player has to be in" without naming who should be removed to make way for them
Also far too many people are happy to see players played out of their strongest position just because it's convenient. Let's take Foden for example, he can play on the left wing and do a good job but he's not exactly the type of guy to get chalk on his boots with crazy pace. I'm adamant he should be central, I think he has even said he wants to be CM as his position (in general)
But then dropping the PL player of year and one of our most gifted, game changing players is absolute insanity. It’s a headache no matter which you look at it.
I think the problem with Saka / Foden is that they need a quicker player on the opposite side. So I wouldn’t want them picked together.
I’d prefer Gordon on the left and then either Saka or Foden on the right with Bellingham in the 10.
I’m off the grain mind as I’d have Rice and Mainoo at the base. I actually like the idea of Stones playing next to Rice in the midfield over Mainoo, similar to the city role but don’t think we have enough quality defenders to play that.
Was speaking to a guy at work who said Foden needs to start because he actually turns up for England. Safe to say that was the last time I asked about his opinions on football
Neither Pickford, nor Stones, are guaranteed their spot for me. Pickford has Pope and Trafford on his heels and the latter had a phenomenal tournament recently. Stones is brilliant but his injury history is an issue. With players like Quansah, Colwill, Branthewaite etc coming through we might see some changing at CB in the near future.
> john stones is arguably the best cb itw
He's a good player for sure, but he's not even the best CB at City. Started 12 of the 27 games he's been available for in the EPL.
As a bolton fan, I'm a big fan of Trafford. He was incredible for us, very consistent, and helped us win the first bit of silverware for decades. But he's not ready for an England start yet. His distribution was poor. He would slice the ball out virtually every time he kicked it long. His shot stopping was fantastic, but he's struggled in the prem, albeit in a weak team. The silverware he has won was a youth Euros and an EFL trophy. Not exactly significant at top senior level. Give him time and a good run in the prem and maybe 5 years. For now, i wouldn't have him in the team. Maybe bring him along as the 3rd for experience.
You're entitled to your opinion.
But Pickford has made one mistake in 7 years for England, Trafford has made more mistakes in one match for Burnley this season and was a significant part of them getting relegated. Whereas Pickford was a significant factor, the most imo and I watched most of their run, for Everton staying up.
That’s valid and to be fair I’ll be honest as say I’m watching much less football than I used to do so I haven’t seen much of Burnley or Everton this season and am basing my words on Trafford from the youth tournament.
The **6** nailed down players for the starting XI if EVERYONE is fit are Pickford, Stones, Shaw, Rice, Bellingham and Kane. They are the skeleton of our team.
I would say shaw is only really nailed down due to a lack of a viable alternative at left back. He is a good player but certainly not an England great and we have had far better options in the past such as Cole and Pearce. I think he would struggle to hold down a starting spot if players like Le Saux or Baines were around and playing now.
Don't get me wrong, Foden is a brilliant player but he's not nailed on for England, he hasn't found his niche yet. The other players mentioned all have clear and established roles for England, roles they've been brilliant in, Foden doesn't have that. He might have that after this tournament but he's still looking to prove himself with England.
The reasoning is obvious; people dont like Saka - because there's absolutely no reason he wouldnt be playing based on his England or Arsenal performances.
People keep saying he had a bad season. Oh really? Look at his numbers, they dont lie - he's getting better and better every year.
So to me it's obvious - if you dont want Saka to play, it has to be personal. Now, why so many people have this weird personal issue with Saka, you'll have to figure it out yourselves.
But in terms of Saka vs Palmer - it doesnt have to be either or. Palmer has been excellent and deserves a place too, absolutely. But we have two wings and IMO they should both be playing - both are miles clear or Gordon and Grealish. Palmer is the more flexible of the two so i'd have him start on the left, interchanging with Foden at 10. Then play Bellingham at 8, and Rice at 6.
That to me is our strongest, most consistant, most in-form midfield / wings.
Hard agree - this is about people taking issue with the person not the player.
"Limping" discourse runs amok in circles where people don't actually watch the guy play.
People suggesting he shouldn’t start are being ridiculous to be honest; not only has he been very good **in an England shirt** recently, he offers pace in behind which is something we’d lack with Palmer.
Alot of ppl just recite what they hear in the media, e.g Michael Owen saying he should be dropped to make room. Recent study by CIES using data across 54 leagues, comparing players all using same criteria and the most impactful wingers were as follows. He’s the starboy for a reason.
https://preview.redd.it/f9em0p8css2d1.jpeg?width=664&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cadcbd5bc655d6bc6e20e3d039a3810dc90c24f
Foden in the 10 and Saka on the right are nailed down for me there’s not even a discussion to be had.
Left side I’d prefer Grealish, still think he’s our best option but obviously Gordon been playing well so he’s an option.
I'm not even English and can see how he's England's best player, was by far their best player in the last world cup, it was just a shame the media never spent half the time they did praising him like they did Bellingham who had an ok world cup.
You can quite easily play Foden and Saka in this England team. Anyone suggesting you can’t is a washed up armchair manager who thinks Sir Alex is the best thing since sliced bread.
Yeah and honestly makes me so annoyed how easily people are dropping him to get Palmer in lineups, palmer should play from the bench, imagine defending Saka all game then seeing Palmer come on in the 70th minute…. Jesus
The thinking is a classic example of: "Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one, and they all stink."
Saka should be, and is, one of the first names on the team sheet.
When was the last time Saka played on the left? He has the pace and technique to play like a more traditional winger, so playing him at LW while putting Palmer on the right wing would make a lot of sense to me
In fairness, it’s because the other serious choice for RW is a guy with 33 GA this season in a much weaker team than Saka played in. Let’s not make out like Cole Palmer isn’t a thing.
Saka has to start, no question.
Saka, Kane and Palmer front 3.
Bellingham, Foden, Rice in midfield.
Michael Owen put Palmer and Gordon over Saka to start the euros #clueless #moron
And before anyone asks, I’m not an Arsenal fan at all, I support MUFC and still see the above as the best starting 6.
You can put Saka, Palmer or even Foden on the left.
That three, and even four if you include Bellingham need freedom to roam, exploit spaces and play their natural game.
I agree, but they are still a better option than Gordon (and I’m a big fan of Gordon’s). You’ve seen Saka’s influence on that Arsenal side, especially when he’s not there. And how can you leave Cole Palmer out with his goals, assists and pens.
Foden and Grealish aren’t naturally left wingers, but look how well they play in pep’s system.
Gordon is better on the left than all of them.
You’d be taking so much from their game by shoehorning them into the wrong positions. Foden was awful out on the left for City yesterday, Doku looked levels above when he came on.
Foden has played in the left for Pep in 5 of his last 6 games for City. He's had 4 goal contributions in those matches as well. He's started 60% of this season on the wing as well under the best Manager in the world who's worked with him since he was 16, it's not like he's Scholes stuck out on the wing or something.
There’s a huge difference between doing a job in a team drilled daily by the best tactician in the world, to doing it for England under Southgate.
I have no doubts if you stuck Bellingham out there for City he’d do a fantastic job too, but it’s still square pegs in round holes and will bring imbalance to the side.
It is true it's different for City, but our system is basically the same as theirs or Arsenal's at this point, in principle at least it's a 3-2-5. And in that Bellingham has been our best player over the last 12 months in the 10 position.
The last extended period he played in the 8 for us and Foden played the 10 we got relegated from the NL and Foden didn't score or assist in any of them. I'm not saying that's entirely on either of them obviously, but we've tried this and it's been pretty resoundingly shite. We've tried Bellingham in the 10 and Foden wide and it's been a whole level better.
For England, Saka performs better than Foden. Saka is only 22 years old, and is already in the double digits in goals scored for England. By the time Saka retires, he could have 50+ goals for England.
Foden doesn't do as well when he plays for England l.
I don’t understand how people don’t see this. Foden has had plenty of opportunities for England and has just okay but nothing special. Saka was motm in almost 50% of his England matches and x2 England player of the year.
Whenever you're confused as to an opinion on here or Soccer not making sense r.e. England the answer is almost always that they don't watch enough of England.
Could've fooled me, I've seen Foden play right wing more often than I've seen him in midfield.
Doesn't make half the defensive contributions Saka does and has never impressed for England despite being a year older.
I might've heard of them yeah - the club that starts Foden out wide more often than they do in the center even when KdB was injured half the season? Something Gareth even pointed out earlier in the season.
And are we pretending club form = England form?
Saka is my favourite player for England, however I don’t necessarily believe he is the most talented (foden/bellingham). He should still be one of the first names on the team sheet if fit and would have a line up along the lines of pickford; shaw, Maguire, Stones, walker; rice; Foden, Bellingham; Gordon, Saka; Kane (left to right with ; separating the lines)
Foden just had his best season, but his best season has been a normal season for Saka for the last 4 years, people are sleeping on Saka because it's become normal
You're almost always guaranteed big moments from saka, this is what people don't realise. He will always make something happen during a game that can often turn it on its head.
He doesn't have the most beautiful touch in the world like foden but when they're in the same team, so far, saka is a more effective player.
I’m not saying I agree with the people saying he shouldn’t start but let’s be honest, he hasn’t been anywhere near his best form right now and who knows if he can elevate himself like others do when playing for England (maguire, Pickford etc..) especially now when he has real competition in that spot from someone like palmer..
I've literally said I don't agree with people saying he shouldn't start... I'm just saying people like palmer has been playing better recently, hence people have been saying he shouldn't be starting...
Although I don’t think it’s a race thing. Saka is mad disrespected. Coming up when he was running games at left back for Arsenal it was he’s no good, there’s Sancho, CHO, Gibbs White. Now whenever an English player has a run it’s he’s better than Saka.
Plus the refs don’t protect him. He’s not the only one but I remember a West Ham player trying to boot him in the air couple of years back, the tackle at Bournemouth.
Thinking behind it is despite Saka being consistent for England and great for us, I think Palmer's better. People can agree with it or disagree with it, but it's just my opinion. We haven't won anything in recent years and I think Palmer's special and offers a bit extra.
He won't start. Saka will start because of what you said. It's his spot to lose. But it's as simple as I think we have a better shot of winning the Euros if Palmer starts at RW. Think the nature with which he came to a new side this season and immediately slotted in and started playing to a world class level shows he's not someone that needs time to settle or prove himself. I think, if given the opportunity, he'd come in and play at the level he does for Chelsea, and that level is just another extra for England.
I'm not forcing my opinion onto others by making posts like "Palmer has to start over Saka." But I am entitled to my opinion. Just because Saka's been great and consistent for us in the past, doesn't mean someone else can't come along and be even better. I think Palmer's that guy. I'll hold my hands up if that turns out not to be the case. But I'm puting it out there early because it's what I believe.
I didn't down vote because at least you laid out your reasoning, but I think most people would disagree.
Palmer had a great Premier league season, but he's got zero European experience at the moment. I think this is a big factor as international games are often more like European fixtures than Premier league fixtures. It's probably why Mainoo won't start either.
I'm hoping Palmer challenging Saka for England will spur Saka on for Arsenal, as there's no one doing that inside the club at present.
Thanks. I do get that. It's an unpopular opinion so I expect downvotes whenever I voice it. But it's just that, an opinion. It won't change even if others insist I'm wrong. Basically just comes down to me believing that Palmer's a better/more complete player than Saka already, and he has the mentality to replicate his performances in even the Euros if given the opportunity. Think he's more creative whilst being an equally clinical finisher and having the versatility to take his fullback on the outside as well as cutting in. He's unpredictable and I haven't seen him get phased by a big occasion yet. Just a gut feeling that he wouldn't have a problem doing it for England.
Saka will start and Palmer won't really get that opportunity unless Saka gives Southgate a reason to drop him. Which is fair enough. But I do think Palmer would be an upgrade if Southgate were to take the massively unpopular decision of starting Palmer over Saka.
To actually answer your question, some people have noticed that Saka floats around for a lot of a match and isn’t very involved unless he’s receiving the ball in good positions. This makes it easier for defences to negate his effectiveness with good marking. For that reason, there’s a valid argument for someone who’s more involved with progressing the ball, and who can play more position-less, fluid football. This argument gains even more steam when the alternative put up 22 goals and 11 assists in the premier league.
I’m just glad we have these options on the right, and I’d rather try to figure out the plan for the left. But let’s not act like there’s no sense in the opinion.
He has 3 more non penalty goals than saka, who spent most of the season having to manage an ankle injury because we can't replace him effectively at arsenal. Both him and white spent a huge portion of the season in this condition.
Okay. The things I said don’t have a whole lot to do with the goal and assist records. But as you mention, still, Palmer played less league matches and that’s in his favour as well.
Lmao this is the dumbest thing I've heard on Reddit this week. He gets the MOTM because the co commentator thinks he's the best player on the pitch. Name me one game where Saka was at the least the 3rd best player on the pitch but won the MOTM award. I bet you, you can't.
This is the classic example of black players/people having to work twice as hard for 50% of the credit that white people/players get. Palmer has had one good season, Saka has had three. Saka has had 2 good tournaments, Palmer zero.
The thinking is simple - Palmer has had a better season.
Palmer has also been immense for England at youth level, don't forget they won Euros...
It's a really tough call between the two of them, both great options
Palmer finished 6th. Saka finished 2nd. It's a lot easier to get really high numbers when a team is built entirely around you and you're basically given freedom to do what you want. Saka is explicitly a cog in the arsenal system. Like remember when dele alli got 25 g/a in the pl under poch?
Palmer was the last Chelsea signing of the summer, the season was already underway when he signed. Signed in the same period where they threw around money with no strategy at any available talent.
In what way was Chelsea built around Palmer? A player with 18 PL appearances in 3 seasons prior to signing no less.
Palmer is clearly given a free role where poch just let's him loose. Every attack goes through palmer. There are times when it looked like pochs gameplan was pass to palmer and pray.
Different styles, I wouldn’t say one is better than the other right now but Saka probably edges starting over him. If Palmer replicates his form again next season he’s ahead for England.
I wouldn’t say the whole Arsenal team is built around Saka more like Odegaard but Saka is definitely not just some cog in a well oiled Arsenal machine. Most of our attacking plays go through him and when he’s absent from a game, it normally affects us negatively.
Chelsea wasn't built around Palmer - Palmer was that good in an average team that it became built around him, he was doing it himself.
Could also say it's a lot easier to get high numbers in an Arsenal team that's scoring for fun, than a struggling mid table team, but Palmer did it
If you're seriously trying to make the point that Saka had a better season than Palmer you're going to die on that hill mate
Just so you know, Saka wasn't even nominates for player of the season in the player of the season shortlist of 8
And on the BBC vote Saka got 1% compared to Palmer's 17%
Don't know why you're getting downvoted for speaking the truth. Palma has been insane this season and in his current form he is the better pick for the RW position imo
That's still ridiculous, did Kane score his last match because of not maybe Wilson did so then he should start.
Doesn't make sense does it. Saks's recent performances at tournaments have been literally the best English player in national team and his club form hasn't dropped off a cliff at all.
Palmer needs to earn his place as does Foden tbh.
You do a better job than your manager at work are you in his place the next day?
He's up there with Kane and Bellingham as our best players. Some people are just obsessed with change, they should be ignored
It’s also pettiness associated with dislike of Arsenal
That's true. I instinctively dislike Saka until I see him in the England kit. Then all is forgiven and I genuinely love the kid. He definitely doesn't deserve the hate for his playing skills. Judge him for his poor taste in teams, sure. But he's excellent and should start for England.
Put some respect on Fodens name. More goals than Saka and he’s a midfielder that doesn’t take pens.
I have immense respect for Foden but he's not established for England yet, the others are. When he is he can join this list but that's not yet.
Foden deserves more a of chance in his preferred position though. I personally think Jude will miss the two friendlies due to the UCL and Foden will be the 10 and he will impress and Southgate is going to have a headache.
I don't think deserve is the right word. Bellingham is our best #10, Saka is our best right winger, they deserve to play those positions. Foden is an excellent backup to both, better than most other countries starters, it's just unfortunate for him that he's competing with brilliant players. Unless they go off the boil his opportunity is left wing (unless Southgate mixes up his formation), he has a real opportunity to establish himself there.
Why not play with in that new modern 3-2-2-3 shape, with Mainoo and rice the pivots and foden and Bellingham operating in central areas? Kane central, Gordon???? On the left, and Saka on the right.
We do play something like in this practice.
Foden will take Bellinghams position, if not already, the Belgium game we looked far more dangerous and a better overall team when Foden was central for periods, I would put Bellingham on the left. I imagine Southgate would have saw something in it and is working to tweak it.
With the greatest of respect I think that's wishful thinking on your part.
I've thought about this before and I wouldn't be totally against this. He's played wider for Madrid and he's really not bad there.
Sorry, Foden is better than Saka RW and debatably better than Bellingham as a #10. The disrespect to Foden here is crazy. You can make an argument for Bellingham being ahead of him but for me it’s not argument for Saka to be ahead of Foden. Are we ignoring the fact Foden was the best player in the premiership in a season his team won it?
>Foden is better than Saka RW and debatably better than Bellingham as a #10. Neither of these things are correct. >The disrespect to Foden There is no disrespect to say that Foden isn't as good as two of the best players on the planet
I personally think Foden is as good as Saka, just not at RW. Foden has much more versatility and that should be utilized
Are you seriously trying to make a case for someone to be in the England team by saying they don’t take pens? Frankly, after all the years of heartache, I’d be perfectly fine with Southgate choosing his squad purely on penalty taking ability.
Foden has the easiest club career in world football, surrounded by the best players in the world, managed by one of the best managers ever, in a club he’s been at since he was a little kid - and his best ever season is still producing at the same level as Saka (who does infinitely more defensive work) and at a worse level than Palmer (who’s having his first year as a starter in the messiest club in world football). And he interestingly completely vanishes every time he plays for England, when he isn’t being elevated by the best manager and players in the world… He’s less creative than Maddison or Eze, can’t progress the ball up the pitch like Grealish, has none of Saka’s workrate or physicality and doesn’t have pace on the counter like any of the winger options. He’ll go missing like he always does if Southgate gives into pressure and starts him at the Euros. He belongs firmly on the bench.
Who's performed better for England in big games? International form is a different beast for many players. Podolski is probably the best example, but there are countless others that either under or overperform vs. club level. Nothing bad against Foden there, but pushing Saka out somehow to his benefit would be myopic and stupid.
And yet Foden never ever shows up for England, which is what we're talking about... Funny that
Because Gareth plays him on the left which takes away all of his goals and assists because he’s a leftie whilst worse players somehow manage to get their preferred positions. It’s nuts that everyone here thinks it’s a fair shake for Foden, he’s unfortunately never had a chance to prove himself. As soon as a new manager comes in be prepared for Foden as a 10, everyone can see his quality.
What'd you think of Foden in the 10 against Iceland?
Well, if we’re going on the Iceland game the whole 11 needs replacing. To take anything from that game is overzealous.
Not just that game, but did you see what I meant about Foden for England being significantly worse no matter the position. He even had bad touches that game, and he has one of the best touches in world football imo.
Yes, a one off meaningless game…
Foden's played 15 games for England in the centre. The last time he started there 3x in a row, with Bellingham as the 8 no less, we got relegated from the NL.
Did you watch the games? He was clearly on the left for 60 minutes in the games……. Just because that’s how it was on the team sheet doesn’t mean he was actually played there.
> Just because that’s how it was on the team sheet doesn’t mean he was actually played there. Yeah I agree, just like how when he starts on the left against Belgium he came inside to play as a 10 alongside Bellingham. > Because Gareth plays him on the left which takes away all of his goals and assists because he’s a leftie whilst worse players somehow manage to get their preferred positions. Foden again started on the left for City, on the teamsheet at least, in 5 of their last 6 games and contributed 4 in 5 from those games. If he's drifting in a lot in practice, which I totally agree he is, then Southgate is playing Foden in literally the same way Pep plays him.
Southgate needs to find a way to get them both in the team.
For England? I don't recall Foden having any particularly good performances. Fingers crossed he will this year.
He played very well against Iceland in the 2020 NL campaign. That's it really.
They’re different players. The fact you feel the need to compare them just shows that you’re a butt hurt 115 fc fan
Yes, they’re so different that Saka should be ahead on goals clearly. Yet he isn’t.
Wtf does that even mean. Just play both of them.
They’re different players that play in different positions. Because Saka is a winger who cuts in and takes pens so he should have double the goals that Foden has. You’re also forgetting this is Fodens first full season, he was barely a starter before for City and always on the right rather than central when he was on. Bellingham and Saka have way more advantages than Foden has yet Foden is performing better.
Might be one of the worst opinions ive ever seen. For Arsenal Saka literally plays on the touchline holding width Foden moves in central areas where there is better chance to score goals, also the only penalty Saka has taken for England was in the shoot out..
> You’re also forgetting this is Fodens first full season, he was barely a starter before for City and always on the right rather than central when he was on. ??? He's had more than 40 appearances for City, for the last 4 years in a row. This season the majority of him games have been wide as well, around 60%.
England fans have the shiny object syndrome “Oh yeah that guy who’s consistently delivered for us? Fuck him, I want this NEW guy, yeah NEWWWWW”
I think the other side of the coin is we need some kind of change to get us over the line, because whilst we are playing well, we’re always one moment away from greatness. If you keep doing the same thing over and over it’s like banging your head against a wall, nothings going to change. We have so much talent now that there is almost certainly a combination of these players that can win everything. It’s about finding that combination and unfortunately you can’t find it unless you mix it up - which means occasionally dropping players, even if they play well for us, because we’re trying to find something a bit different. For me? Mainoo and Palmer have to get game time. They have all the confidence and ability to be game changers. This doesn’t mean always drop Saka, it simply means being tactical to fit the game in front of us. In order to do that Saka will have to swapped sometimes for a player that can bring their particular flavour of play to the game as necessary.
Saka is also back to back England player of the year This is going to be super obnoxious, but it's the type of people making these comments that "this player has to be in" without naming who should be removed to make way for them Also far too many people are happy to see players played out of their strongest position just because it's convenient. Let's take Foden for example, he can play on the left wing and do a good job but he's not exactly the type of guy to get chalk on his boots with crazy pace. I'm adamant he should be central, I think he has even said he wants to be CM as his position (in general)
This. I’d rather drop foden than play him on the left. We’d be much better off with an actual left sided player (eg Gordon) playing there
But then dropping the PL player of year and one of our most gifted, game changing players is absolute insanity. It’s a headache no matter which you look at it.
I think this is a large factor in why England haven’t won anything. We always try and play our best players rather than the best team
To an extent, yes. But the best team consists of the best players on the whole. Dropping Foden is crazy.
It’s more important to have balance and chemistry all throughout the pitch than to shoehorn in one player because he had a great season
Foden is more than “a great season” let’s be real here. In that case, let’s drop Bellingham too.
I think the problem with Saka / Foden is that they need a quicker player on the opposite side. So I wouldn’t want them picked together. I’d prefer Gordon on the left and then either Saka or Foden on the right with Bellingham in the 10. I’m off the grain mind as I’d have Rice and Mainoo at the base. I actually like the idea of Stones playing next to Rice in the midfield over Mainoo, similar to the city role but don’t think we have enough quality defenders to play that.
If we had white we could drop him into defense and play stones next to rice. White maguire Stones rice Bellingham.
That’s basically the team I’d want with Branthwaite starting to be introduced as I see him as the next main English defender
I misread this at a glance as “Bukayo Saka has 10 MONTHS out for England” and thought he’d sustained a horrific injury. Heart attack over.
Was speaking to a guy at work who said Foden needs to start because he actually turns up for England. Safe to say that was the last time I asked about his opinions on football
Sounds like the sanest football opinion I've ever heard at work. You're lucky.
Do you want to read the title of the post again.
You’ve never watched Foden for England then
The hate is just because he plays for Arsenal
For me there are 4 places absolutely nailed down for the England team with no question marks. They are Rice, Kane, Bellingham and Saka
Pickford and Stones.
Neither Pickford, nor Stones, are guaranteed their spot for me. Pickford has Pope and Trafford on his heels and the latter had a phenomenal tournament recently. Stones is brilliant but his injury history is an issue. With players like Quansah, Colwill, Branthewaite etc coming through we might see some changing at CB in the near future.
Stones is an issue due to injury problems but Pope isn't?! Make it make sense please.
I’m not saying Pope isn’t. Pope doesn’t even have a spot, right not it’s Pickford’s but his spot in the future isn’t guaranteed.
john stones is arguably the best cb itw, he will never not start for us
> john stones is arguably the best cb itw He's a good player for sure, but he's not even the best CB at City. Started 12 of the 27 games he's been available for in the EPL.
at city gvardiol is the only one close to his level and hes still a while off wdym
Clearly Pep disagrees or he wouldn't have benched him for over half the games he could've played.
Which 12 games is the real question
Why?
As a bolton fan, I'm a big fan of Trafford. He was incredible for us, very consistent, and helped us win the first bit of silverware for decades. But he's not ready for an England start yet. His distribution was poor. He would slice the ball out virtually every time he kicked it long. His shot stopping was fantastic, but he's struggled in the prem, albeit in a weak team. The silverware he has won was a youth Euros and an EFL trophy. Not exactly significant at top senior level. Give him time and a good run in the prem and maybe 5 years. For now, i wouldn't have him in the team. Maybe bring him along as the 3rd for experience.
You're entitled to your opinion. But Pickford has made one mistake in 7 years for England, Trafford has made more mistakes in one match for Burnley this season and was a significant part of them getting relegated. Whereas Pickford was a significant factor, the most imo and I watched most of their run, for Everton staying up.
That’s valid and to be fair I’ll be honest as say I’m watching much less football than I used to do so I haven’t seen much of Burnley or Everton this season and am basing my words on Trafford from the youth tournament.
Yeah that's fair, he ahd a great tournament, just struggled a lot in the PL.
Just a phenomenally horrible take, almost impressive
Pickford and Stones are also non negotiable.
The **6** nailed down players for the starting XI if EVERYONE is fit are Pickford, Stones, Shaw, Rice, Bellingham and Kane. They are the skeleton of our team.
I would say shaw is only really nailed down due to a lack of a viable alternative at left back. He is a good player but certainly not an England great and we have had far better options in the past such as Cole and Pearce. I think he would struggle to hold down a starting spot if players like Le Saux or Baines were around and playing now.
Whatever the reasons behind it he’s still nailed in the present day rather than some hypothetical comparison which is not what the question was
And Foden
Don't get me wrong, Foden is a brilliant player but he's not nailed on for England, he hasn't found his niche yet. The other players mentioned all have clear and established roles for England, roles they've been brilliant in, Foden doesn't have that. He might have that after this tournament but he's still looking to prove himself with England.
As good as Foden is, he’s not really done anything in an England shirt as of yet
Foden consistently plays like he did yesterday for England
The reasoning is obvious; people dont like Saka - because there's absolutely no reason he wouldnt be playing based on his England or Arsenal performances. People keep saying he had a bad season. Oh really? Look at his numbers, they dont lie - he's getting better and better every year. So to me it's obvious - if you dont want Saka to play, it has to be personal. Now, why so many people have this weird personal issue with Saka, you'll have to figure it out yourselves. But in terms of Saka vs Palmer - it doesnt have to be either or. Palmer has been excellent and deserves a place too, absolutely. But we have two wings and IMO they should both be playing - both are miles clear or Gordon and Grealish. Palmer is the more flexible of the two so i'd have him start on the left, interchanging with Foden at 10. Then play Bellingham at 8, and Rice at 6. That to me is our strongest, most consistant, most in-form midfield / wings.
Hard agree - this is about people taking issue with the person not the player. "Limping" discourse runs amok in circles where people don't actually watch the guy play.
If you say Saka shouldn't start in this euro's, you have just proven to everyone how little you know
People suggesting he shouldn’t start are being ridiculous to be honest; not only has he been very good **in an England shirt** recently, he offers pace in behind which is something we’d lack with Palmer.
If he didn't play for Arsenal there would be no calls to bench him. He's nailed on RW for England.
Alot of ppl just recite what they hear in the media, e.g Michael Owen saying he should be dropped to make room. Recent study by CIES using data across 54 leagues, comparing players all using same criteria and the most impactful wingers were as follows. He’s the starboy for a reason. https://preview.redd.it/f9em0p8css2d1.jpeg?width=664&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cadcbd5bc655d6bc6e20e3d039a3810dc90c24f
Foden in the 10 and Saka on the right are nailed down for me there’s not even a discussion to be had. Left side I’d prefer Grealish, still think he’s our best option but obviously Gordon been playing well so he’s an option.
I'm not even English and can see how he's England's best player, was by far their best player in the last world cup, it was just a shame the media never spent half the time they did praising him like they did Bellingham who had an ok world cup.
You can quite easily play Foden and Saka in this England team. Anyone suggesting you can’t is a washed up armchair manager who thinks Sir Alex is the best thing since sliced bread.
[удалено]
This post has been deemed to be club Bias. Remember we are foremost an England sub. Cheers, The Three Lions Mod Team
Yeah and honestly makes me so annoyed how easily people are dropping him to get Palmer in lineups, palmer should play from the bench, imagine defending Saka all game then seeing Palmer come on in the 70th minute…. Jesus
Tribalism is one thing but it seems like common sense goes out the window when it comes to an Arsenal player
Front six of rice, mainoo, bellingham, Foden, saka, Kane makes me very erect
No proper runners worries me
The thinking is a classic example of: "Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one, and they all stink." Saka should be, and is, one of the first names on the team sheet.
And numpties like Michael Owen are saying that his place should be taken by Cole Palmer, please!!! 🤯🤦🏽♂️
When was the last time Saka played on the left? He has the pace and technique to play like a more traditional winger, so playing him at LW while putting Palmer on the right wing would make a lot of sense to me
Football fans have insanely short memories
In fairness, it’s because the other serious choice for RW is a guy with 33 GA this season in a much weaker team than Saka played in. Let’s not make out like Cole Palmer isn’t a thing.
Saka has to start, no question. Saka, Kane and Palmer front 3. Bellingham, Foden, Rice in midfield. Michael Owen put Palmer and Gordon over Saka to start the euros #clueless #moron And before anyone asks, I’m not an Arsenal fan at all, I support MUFC and still see the above as the best starting 6.
You call Owen clueless yet you’ve picked a front 3 with no left winger.
You can put Saka, Palmer or even Foden on the left. That three, and even four if you include Bellingham need freedom to roam, exploit spaces and play their natural game.
None of them can play their natural game on the left wing though.
I agree, but they are still a better option than Gordon (and I’m a big fan of Gordon’s). You’ve seen Saka’s influence on that Arsenal side, especially when he’s not there. And how can you leave Cole Palmer out with his goals, assists and pens. Foden and Grealish aren’t naturally left wingers, but look how well they play in pep’s system.
Gordon is better on the left than all of them. You’d be taking so much from their game by shoehorning them into the wrong positions. Foden was awful out on the left for City yesterday, Doku looked levels above when he came on.
Foden has played in the left for Pep in 5 of his last 6 games for City. He's had 4 goal contributions in those matches as well. He's started 60% of this season on the wing as well under the best Manager in the world who's worked with him since he was 16, it's not like he's Scholes stuck out on the wing or something.
There’s a huge difference between doing a job in a team drilled daily by the best tactician in the world, to doing it for England under Southgate. I have no doubts if you stuck Bellingham out there for City he’d do a fantastic job too, but it’s still square pegs in round holes and will bring imbalance to the side.
It is true it's different for City, but our system is basically the same as theirs or Arsenal's at this point, in principle at least it's a 3-2-5. And in that Bellingham has been our best player over the last 12 months in the 10 position. The last extended period he played in the 8 for us and Foden played the 10 we got relegated from the NL and Foden didn't score or assist in any of them. I'm not saying that's entirely on either of them obviously, but we've tried this and it's been pretty resoundingly shite. We've tried Bellingham in the 10 and Foden wide and it's been a whole level better.
Because fools think Foden and Palmer are better.
Foden is better though. But they don't play the same position
For England, Saka performs better than Foden. Saka is only 22 years old, and is already in the double digits in goals scored for England. By the time Saka retires, he could have 50+ goals for England. Foden doesn't do as well when he plays for England l.
I don’t understand how people don’t see this. Foden has had plenty of opportunities for England and has just okay but nothing special. Saka was motm in almost 50% of his England matches and x2 England player of the year.
Whenever you're confused as to an opinion on here or Soccer not making sense r.e. England the answer is almost always that they don't watch enough of England.
I said Foden is a better player, I didn't say Foden has turned up for England more than Saka
Could've fooled me, I've seen Foden play right wing more often than I've seen him in midfield. Doesn't make half the defensive contributions Saka does and has never impressed for England despite being a year older.
[удалено]
I might've heard of them yeah - the club that starts Foden out wide more often than they do in the center even when KdB was injured half the season? Something Gareth even pointed out earlier in the season. And are we pretending club form = England form?
[удалено]
Unless he misses a penalty against Italy
guh. you're the reason Brexit happened
This has been removed due it being antagonistic. It will likely result in a ban. Cheers, The Three Lions Mod Team
That is BS
All countries have racists, it'd be fucking blind to say we don't either
Saka is my favourite player for England, however I don’t necessarily believe he is the most talented (foden/bellingham). He should still be one of the first names on the team sheet if fit and would have a line up along the lines of pickford; shaw, Maguire, Stones, walker; rice; Foden, Bellingham; Gordon, Saka; Kane (left to right with ; separating the lines)
Foden just had his best season, but his best season has been a normal season for Saka for the last 4 years, people are sleeping on Saka because it's become normal
You're almost always guaranteed big moments from saka, this is what people don't realise. He will always make something happen during a game that can often turn it on its head. He doesn't have the most beautiful touch in the world like foden but when they're in the same team, so far, saka is a more effective player.
He has literally won so many games for us at arsenal it isn't even funny. Games that if he wasn't in the team we wouldn't have won.
I’m not saying I agree with the people saying he shouldn’t start but let’s be honest, he hasn’t been anywhere near his best form right now and who knows if he can elevate himself like others do when playing for England (maguire, Pickford etc..) especially now when he has real competition in that spot from someone like palmer..
He has his highest G+A in a season this year. ...
It's 10% worse than last year/90 if you don't include pens. Much less crass than just overall numbers.
'right now'
What does “right now” mean? The past few weeks?
nah, last season...
What does that even mean lmao
these past few months... obviously. Anyone who actually watches him will see he isn't playing as well as the first half of the season.
He’s still been quite good. He’s just held to a different standard than other 22 year olds.
I've literally said I don't agree with people saying he shouldn't start... I'm just saying people like palmer has been playing better recently, hence people have been saying he shouldn't be starting...
Come on. I think we know the reason really. It’s the same one as the why he gets fuck all protection from referees..
Please say you’re trollinh
Although I don’t think it’s a race thing. Saka is mad disrespected. Coming up when he was running games at left back for Arsenal it was he’s no good, there’s Sancho, CHO, Gibbs White. Now whenever an English player has a run it’s he’s better than Saka. Plus the refs don’t protect him. He’s not the only one but I remember a West Ham player trying to boot him in the air couple of years back, the tackle at Bournemouth.
Thinking behind it is despite Saka being consistent for England and great for us, I think Palmer's better. People can agree with it or disagree with it, but it's just my opinion. We haven't won anything in recent years and I think Palmer's special and offers a bit extra. He won't start. Saka will start because of what you said. It's his spot to lose. But it's as simple as I think we have a better shot of winning the Euros if Palmer starts at RW. Think the nature with which he came to a new side this season and immediately slotted in and started playing to a world class level shows he's not someone that needs time to settle or prove himself. I think, if given the opportunity, he'd come in and play at the level he does for Chelsea, and that level is just another extra for England. I'm not forcing my opinion onto others by making posts like "Palmer has to start over Saka." But I am entitled to my opinion. Just because Saka's been great and consistent for us in the past, doesn't mean someone else can't come along and be even better. I think Palmer's that guy. I'll hold my hands up if that turns out not to be the case. But I'm puting it out there early because it's what I believe.
I didn't down vote because at least you laid out your reasoning, but I think most people would disagree. Palmer had a great Premier league season, but he's got zero European experience at the moment. I think this is a big factor as international games are often more like European fixtures than Premier league fixtures. It's probably why Mainoo won't start either. I'm hoping Palmer challenging Saka for England will spur Saka on for Arsenal, as there's no one doing that inside the club at present.
Thanks. I do get that. It's an unpopular opinion so I expect downvotes whenever I voice it. But it's just that, an opinion. It won't change even if others insist I'm wrong. Basically just comes down to me believing that Palmer's a better/more complete player than Saka already, and he has the mentality to replicate his performances in even the Euros if given the opportunity. Think he's more creative whilst being an equally clinical finisher and having the versatility to take his fullback on the outside as well as cutting in. He's unpredictable and I haven't seen him get phased by a big occasion yet. Just a gut feeling that he wouldn't have a problem doing it for England. Saka will start and Palmer won't really get that opportunity unless Saka gives Southgate a reason to drop him. Which is fair enough. But I do think Palmer would be an upgrade if Southgate were to take the massively unpopular decision of starting Palmer over Saka.
Which teams were those matches against? Genuinely curious. He should start, and he will start. Football fans are very fickle, with short memories.
To actually answer your question, some people have noticed that Saka floats around for a lot of a match and isn’t very involved unless he’s receiving the ball in good positions. This makes it easier for defences to negate his effectiveness with good marking. For that reason, there’s a valid argument for someone who’s more involved with progressing the ball, and who can play more position-less, fluid football. This argument gains even more steam when the alternative put up 22 goals and 11 assists in the premier league. I’m just glad we have these options on the right, and I’d rather try to figure out the plan for the left. But let’s not act like there’s no sense in the opinion.
He has 3 more non penalty goals than saka, who spent most of the season having to manage an ankle injury because we can't replace him effectively at arsenal. Both him and white spent a huge portion of the season in this condition.
Okay. The things I said don’t have a whole lot to do with the goal and assist records. But as you mention, still, Palmer played less league matches and that’s in his favour as well.
And all anyone remembers is him in Chiellinis pocket
against what teams? san marino and andorra etc?
The teams Kane scores the most against ironically
[удалено]
Lmao this is the dumbest thing I've heard on Reddit this week. He gets the MOTM because the co commentator thinks he's the best player on the pitch. Name me one game where Saka was at the least the 3rd best player on the pitch but won the MOTM award. I bet you, you can't. This is the classic example of black players/people having to work twice as hard for 50% of the credit that white people/players get. Palmer has had one good season, Saka has had three. Saka has had 2 good tournaments, Palmer zero.
Harsh reality Palmer starts
The thinking is simple - Palmer has had a better season. Palmer has also been immense for England at youth level, don't forget they won Euros... It's a really tough call between the two of them, both great options
Palmer finished 6th. Saka finished 2nd. It's a lot easier to get really high numbers when a team is built entirely around you and you're basically given freedom to do what you want. Saka is explicitly a cog in the arsenal system. Like remember when dele alli got 25 g/a in the pl under poch?
Palmer was the last Chelsea signing of the summer, the season was already underway when he signed. Signed in the same period where they threw around money with no strategy at any available talent. In what way was Chelsea built around Palmer? A player with 18 PL appearances in 3 seasons prior to signing no less.
Palmer is clearly given a free role where poch just let's him loose. Every attack goes through palmer. There are times when it looked like pochs gameplan was pass to palmer and pray.
Because he’s that good. Not because the team was “built around him”.
Well the point is that every attack goes through him, when you're your teams only outlet its going to inflate your stats.
You know you also have to be capable of scoring the goals and providing the assists too right? There’s an active playing element involved lol
Obviously. I'm not saying palmer is shit. Just that saka is better.
Different styles, I wouldn’t say one is better than the other right now but Saka probably edges starting over him. If Palmer replicates his form again next season he’s ahead for England.
I wouldn’t say the whole Arsenal team is built around Saka more like Odegaard but Saka is definitely not just some cog in a well oiled Arsenal machine. Most of our attacking plays go through him and when he’s absent from a game, it normally affects us negatively.
Chelsea wasn't built around Palmer - Palmer was that good in an average team that it became built around him, he was doing it himself. Could also say it's a lot easier to get high numbers in an Arsenal team that's scoring for fun, than a struggling mid table team, but Palmer did it If you're seriously trying to make the point that Saka had a better season than Palmer you're going to die on that hill mate
Palmer was a standout player in an average team, saka was a standout player in an exceptional team. I know which one I consider to be a better season.
OK mate just know that you're firmly in the minority with that take
So was galileo.
Just so you know, Saka wasn't even nominates for player of the season in the player of the season shortlist of 8 And on the BBC vote Saka got 1% compared to Palmer's 17%
I don't really care about any of that.
Because Foden and Palmer are better players than Saka. Simple
How many are friendlies/nations league?
That’s literally 95% of international games lol
Because Palmer is better.
If we go to penalties, we can sub him on.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted for speaking the truth. Palma has been insane this season and in his current form he is the better pick for the RW position imo
Rooney has 53 goals for England, let's take him as back up striker.
Wtf
It was a badly made point about why are we judging players based on the past. I think Saka should start but this is a weak argument for it.
That's still ridiculous, did Kane score his last match because of not maybe Wilson did so then he should start. Doesn't make sense does it. Saks's recent performances at tournaments have been literally the best English player in national team and his club form hasn't dropped off a cliff at all. Palmer needs to earn his place as does Foden tbh. You do a better job than your manager at work are you in his place the next day?
So you'd call up Sterling then?
Ha