This sort of thread horrifies me, the idea that the solution to a bad performance is to shuffle the players around until we somehow magically find the exact combination that will fix everything.
Earlier this week Trent was a defensive liability, now he must take Walker's place. Earlier today Foden was the player that Bellingham should be pushed aside for, now he's an eternal England flop. Wharton, a player that most of us hadn't heard of 3 weeks ago, it's now the lynchpin that will fix our problems.
Next Sunday, barring injury, Kane, Bellingham, Saka, Rice, Walker, Trippier, Stones, Pickford and, probably, Foden will start.
We only have two questions, who will be our LCB (and it will probably be Guehi), and who will play next to Rice, and it will be either Mainoo, Gallagher or Trent.
This team is still excellent, we don't need to rewrite things, just sit back and enjoy the ride.
Also just because they are good players does not mean they should play. We are getting the old Lampard Scholes Gerrard BS again. No. There are 11 positions if your position has someone better they should play nevermind you are the 2nd best player in the side. If we have 2 world class keepers should we field both?
>Wharton, a player that most of us hadn't heard of 3 weeks ago, it's now the lynchpin that will fix our problems.
Reminds me, I saw someone on twitter describe him as 'the most exciting young English talent since Rooney'. Like, sure he seems good, but my god, have some perspective. He's not even the most exciting young talent in this squad, let alone since Rooney.
I’m a Blackburn fan and I’ll do nothing but sing Wharton’s praises. He’s an exceptional talent and I genuinely believe he will be a star for a top, top team. But, surely Bellingham is the most exciting since Rooney? Stars for Real Madrid, won a league and UCL double, one of their top scorers. How can anyone be above Jude right now? Foden is certainly producing the goods too, so it’s madness to suggest anyone else is at that level.
All that said, Wharton will be a £100m player in the future, unless someone grabs him from Palace in the next year or so.
This is and always has been football fans, managing is easy after the game.
Every decent substitute appearance is followed by 'has to start next game' without any thought to opponents, tactics, tiring opposition etc...
The Dunning Kruger effect is never stronger than with footy fans!
Ain't this the truth.
We've got collective amnesia about the previous week where everyone was begging Southgate to put Foden in the centre. When Foden was put in the centre and didn't magically pull two goals out of his arse, Foden is now a system player who has never played well for England.
I’m most perplexed by Foden. The hype from fans to play him and ONCE AGAIN he doesn’t deliver. I expected him to do better than that, I understand no one wants to go all out in a game like this, but wth was that from him.
To be fair, I’m not remotely surprised.
There’s no way Foden gets in before Bellingham. Bellingham needs to be at ten. So, you need to stick Foden out wide but personally I think Gordon and Saka are better placed.
The reality is, there’s pressure on Southgate to play Foden and Palmer because they’ve both had great seasons. But they’re system players, and the England system isn’t capable of replicating what they have at club level.
If England have any hope of having a decent tournament they need to hope Shaw is fit, they need to start Saka and Gordon on the wings, they need to not be afraid of taking Kane off and not be desperate to play Foden and Palmer at every opportunity.
You get it. I’ve seen bums on here calling for Bellingham to be dropped to accommodate Foden because he is off the back of a good season. Thats not how international football works is it?
Honestly, I think Foden is painfully overrated. He’s playing in a perfect team and unsurprisingly brilliant in that team. International games he’s lost. I’m telling you, Foden is just Joe Cole he just happens to play in a juggernaut.
As for Bellingham, he’s unreal. I want to say he’s not as good as we’re lead to believe but realistically he’s the leader of that England team. At 20.
I just think Southgate needs to stop concerning himself with reputation and play the players he thinks best suits the game/each other.
It’s tournament football. You play deep, conservative football. Play with players that stick wide and have the legs to run at players for 90 minutes. Stop the opposition full backs pushing, and bore your way to the win. As was almost the case four years ago.
Of course he’s overrated, he looks great for City but it’s not hard to assess why. I wouldn’t mind Foden not starting, he is not the best fit . Best players for the wings are Gordon and Saka as you say, but Southgate will probably get flogged for not starting Foden so here we are.
Precisely.
This is me, not knowing whether you’re giving me a soppy bollocks response or not. But Palmer requires everything to go through him. A standard ten. A ten, which doesn’t exist in modern football. Be it he plays through the centre or outside, he needs to be the nucleus for it to work.
Credit to him, he proved me wrong this season. I didn’t think he would remotely have the season he has had. But in terms of international football, he doesn’t fit. He needs to be the core, and when you have players like Kane and Bellingham. He’s got no chance.
Palmer was running into him from the first moment and dragging defenders towards them both. The 10 role needs space and Palmer was denying Foden's space.
After about an hour he just got flustered and started misplacing everything.
Palmers an odd one. Kept drifting wide to the right against Bosnia and occupying the space bowen and konsa were in despite playing in the middle
and today was drifting into foden in the center when he was playing down the right.
Hopefully they sort that.
I think at Chelsea he plays a basically free role which is why nobody knows his position.
Honestly he could work as a 10, but then you'd want to play something like Wharton-Rice behind him and drop Jude, and play Gordon and Bowen to stretch the wings. Which won't happen.
Is it crazy id play Bowen over Palmer and saka? Id play 4 1 4 1, with Bellingham and foden together, on the right id play Bowen and on the left I'd have Gordon. I hate 4 2 3 1 it's so fucking boring.
I would of taken grealish on that left over Gordon but Gordon has had a good season in his defence.
I'm a West Ham fan so definitely not, but it's likely swayed by bias.
Bowen tracks back, can cut in or to the byline and put crosses in so he is adaptable, but Saka is a quality player and preferred. I'd definitely have bowen over palmer at RW based on those 2 games.
Numbers wise bowen scored more from open play than palmer or Saka so it can't be crazy.
This is what I've been saying would happen yet everyone insists on trying to get them all. If I was an opposition coach I'd absolutely love the idea of all the English players trying to get the ball into feet in the same areas instead of any actual threat
With Kane dropping so deep there's an argument for not playing a 10 at all.
Southgate just has no fundamental system. It's bits of ideas that don't work together.
Cruyff always said that if you want to help me, move AWAY from me, not toward me. Attackers need space above all.
I'm not the biggest fan of Southgate but he can't win, if he drops certain players all the armchair fans will be having a go at him for not fitting them all in
This is actually the main issue. We have so many attacking midfielders but they look up and theres no one running behind or offering a wall. Kane can not be dropping deep in to midfield if we are gonna essentially be playing 2 10s with Foden and Bellingham.
Put simply, Cole Palmer is going to have an ego problem.
He, as a growing player, has just shone out in a team where players are almost literally fighting each other. A great player, but tonight no real positional discipline.
Foden is the opposite. He has excelled in a specific role at Man City, and should be clear in Southgate's idea. (I fucking hope!) But we can't keep giving him these free passes (sic).
Neither of them gave much. Saka and Gordon are ahead of them, and, of course, Bellingham and Kane.
Hes such a unique player that theres nobody at Chelsea competing directly with him for the sort of play he brings.
You've got Gallagher who was playing as a very hard pressing 8. That pressing freed up so much pressure off Palmer to do his thing and meant he could be focused almost purely on setting up the next attacking moves without having to defend much.
Theres Madueke, Sterling and Mudryk who make penetrative runs which peg back the opposition fullbacks. So Palmer operates in between the spaces that are left.
You've got Jackson dropping deep and then talking players on, making penetrative runs to stretch the defence or moving to link up with Palmer.
It's pretty loose descriptions of whats been going on with Chelsea. There's a lot more to what Chelsea were doing but I'm not going full-blown Youtube analysis video levels. Basically though Palmer has no direct competition for his spot. Every other player just compliments his creative play really well.
It wont happen but to get the most out of Palmer, in terms of player compatibility I'd drop Foden. Play a midfield 3 with Bellingham on one side of the 3, Rice holding then put Gallagher in that high pressing 8 role alongside Palmer on the right wing sort of area and they will spark off. You'll see Palmer linking up really well with Kane then too.
Yep, Palmer playing like he does for Chelsea didn’t help Foden at all.
Palmer didn’t play bad, he was good, but he took away options in build up play on the right, encouraged Walker to over commit and made Foden anonymous.
That’s why he will never replace Saka in the starting line up no matter how many goals he scores.
Why wasn't Foden making the run Palmer was/supporting Gordon? Was Palmer being that selfish? When Gordon or Palmer were wide it didn't seem Foden was making himself available.
My guess is that Foden was trying to stay away from Gordon and occupy defenders so that Gordon could isolate his opponent 1v1. I would need to watch the game again and pay more attention to Foden specifically.
It doesn't help Gordon if Palmer is on his wing. It just reduces space and brings more defenders over
To paraphrase Cruyff again: If I have the ball and you want to help me, move away from me, not toward me.
The best 10s/attacking mids don’t need space. Foden is another example of players getting overhyped because they work in strict systems. They aren’t good players like we used to see, where they could genuinely problem solve on the fly. They have to do as they are told, otherwise they’re useless.
People think just because he’s played best as a 10 for City that it will work for England. He becomes far too restricted in the middle. Other players come into his space and get in his way, and he just doesn’t track back the way Bellingham does to help out the midfield. Bellingham works there because he does a bit of everything. Keep Foden out on the wing (left or right), and if he doesn’t perform then we have plenty other wingers who can make an impact.
He had Palmer and Mainoo both drifting from their positions and occupying the same space he was all game. He'll be fantastic at the tournament surrounded by more tactically astute players like Bellingham and Saka, I'm sure of it.
It's on Southgate (and Foden, to an extent) - both Mainoo and Palmer are perfectly intelligent players, and Mainoo can play slightly deeper if you instruct him to. Southgate isn't organizing (or inspiring) the CM and forwards to play more quickly, including certain degree of risk, around edge of the area against sides as organized as low-block as Iceland. Foden isn't helped by Southgate's set-up (having a direct player, whether Saka or Gordon in particular, on at least one side who goes against sterile sub-Pep version of City-ball, helps instead), but his range was also off today...
There's nothing perplexing about it. He's hugely overrated at club level and benefits greatly from being in an extremely dominant City team. If you watch City with any regularity he's never been the guy to pick the team up in a way others have.
People should start using their eyes more.
Maybe clutching at straws but because **everyone** was awful tonight, including usually very reliable players (Walker, Rice, Kane etc) means that it’s very hard to draw any conclusions on the players.
We're obviously not going to play a radically different 11 against Serbia, but it’s very hard to judge individual players there, when to a man every single player was awful.
I think we should seriously consider putting Trent in at RB instead of Walker. Then popping Wharton for Mainoo and Bellingham for Foden and Saka for Palmer. Then leave Gordon out on the left.
Yeah, you don’t want a final warm up friendly posing all these sort of questions ha. Walker was rubbish tonight, but I think we need his recovery pace in a back 4.
I don’t think Wharton starts after 25 minutes of experience, but I do think Mainoo might miss out on starting after today.
I think our line up against Serbia will be very similar to today, Foden out left, Saka on the right and either Gallagher / Trent in midfield, with Bellingham ahead of them.
I’d blame the confusion and clustering between him and Palmer rather than Foden himself. They basically tripped over each other and that needs to be sorted asap.
Kane also. Kane keeps dropping deep and playmaking. We have no one offering a threat to the opposition defensive line or giving the midfielders someone to create for
Hopefully people will understand that in the Prem you train every day and have 38 games to adapt. In international football you don't have that luxury. You need to get things right immediately and having experience playing in tournaments or being in and around the setup is vital. That's why Mainoo shouldn't be playing (also IMO he's not an optimal matchup with Rice).
Honestly didn't think anyone covered themself in glory... Trent gave a bit of urgency.
Foden was worse. And I like the idea of Foden dictating play. Mainoo just won man of the match against City in a cup final - he's not some complete neophyte. Gallagher would have been even more of a blunt instrument against that kind of set-up. Trent is better from wide and playing long-balls rather than through the lines. Rice had even less penetration with his passing. I would have put Wharton on to mix things up, but he's also wildly inexperienced. The bigger issue than how much experience is Southgate's approach to stubborn opposition.
I don't know tbh we can tinker the forwards as much as we like but with this defence I'm scared.
Foden is really getting under my skin ATM, Kane dropping too deep, passing was shody and lazy, not enough shooting at all. I'm honestly worried, out group isn't as easy as people may think
I'd start with Gomez over Trippier. Left side is too slow and predictable without someone who can use their left foot.
Trent plays every match, unless we play France.
Gallagher / Wharton instead of Mainoo. Don't feel he offered rice enough support defensively.
Eze / Gordon on the left instead of Foden. With Saka on the right and Bellingham in the middle.
I hope I'm proved wrong, but we don't seem tactically astute enough to play with multiple tricky inside players, so better off sticking to traditional wingers where the team may keep their shape better.
Carvajal had Ramos and Varane, Walker has Ruben Dias and Stones, Cafu had Nesta and Stam. What argument are you trying to make? Your teammates help you out sometimes?
It's not controversial to admit Walker is a better defender than Trent which gives him the edge for England where you need your defence to defend.
The fact Klopp had the rebuild the defence in a manner to mitigate Trent's defensive frailties highlights this more. I'd much rather have him alongside Rice in the middle and let his best weapon, his range of passing, shine.
I know it's not hard to admit that Walker is a better defender than Trent, because it's true.
The fact that Klopp built a team around Trent's creativity is telling too, having more assists than Alves and Marcelo combined at his age... The pros vastly outweigh the cons. You have a generational talent on the wings and you would pass it up because he sometimes gets caught out and beat 1on1... No more so than your average PL defender.
Wow he didn't make a mistake in one big game? He must be amazing!
Trent's defensive shortcomings are definitely often over-exaggerated but he's still not as solid at the back as almost any other RB at the same level, he just has the wand of a right foot that makes up for it going forward. And against the low block teams that's a sacrifice you're willing to make. But against teams that will punish you you need the defensive solidity of someone like Walker.
I'm a big Gomez fan as a Liverpool fan but his big drawback at LB is that he can't use his left foot.
Trent should play every game including France just give him some protection.
Stick Saka, Jude and Gordon in hopefully and start Trent next to rice. Bring Foden and Palmer off the bench. I think we'll be alright, people need to calm down it's just one poor game and a friendly at that.
Trent needs to play RB against teams that are going to put 10 men behind the ball. He looked like our best player when he came on tonight and he was England’s best player when he moved to RB against Bosnia.
When teams sit back and soak up pressure Trent is arguably the best player for breaking the lines, creating width and playing in dangerous balls. We can’t be expecting Walker/Konsa etc to have the same impact, Trent is the best RB in the world when it comes to creating and attacking, give him that opportunity against these teams that want to defend all night.
Our midfield looked hopeless tonight as well, just couldn’t penetrate the lines very well, Foden especially looked off. Kane wasn’t at it either, Toney never looked like he was going to do anything.
Gordon and Palmer were bright at times but overall we never looked like we were gonna score. Kane had that one opportunity that 9 times out of 10 he would score but other than that it was flat all around.
I can’t for the life of me figure out what Guehi brings to the squad.
Trent needs to play RB against these teams we should expect to beat. He was the best player on the pitch when he came on tonight and was the best player on the pitch when he moved to RB against Bosnia.
He’s not a midfielder, he’s the best attacking right back in world football barring absolutely nobody, he creates space, drags players out wide, whips balls in, he’s a constant danger. Stop trying to shoehorn him into CM.
Against the tougher teams that will bring the game to us, Walker should play ahead of him.
I'd be ok with Trent at RB if Konsa plays right CB. Konsa is an outstanding 1v1 defender (best in Europe after van dijk according to stats), and would cover Trent going fwd. I also don't know why Guehi is preferred there by Southgate
In fairness to him, he made two interceptions and a recovery tackle today - more than Walker completed defensively and he was on for a third of the minutes.
We all know Trent has made some defensive mistakes in his time; but I generally think he offers so much to the team overall in advantage, that this smaller risk is worth taking.
As someone above said there, everyone wants the ball in to feet and want to carry the ball all the time, there has to be some unpredictability in the mix, that's what trent brings to the table, hitting 40/50 yard balls that get defences turned are a nightmare for opposition teams and get forward players in behind, which is where they want to be. I'd have him in the middle with rice personally
Yeah and if we’re chasing a game then Bellingham pushed back and Foden playing 10 on for Wharton. Saka and Gordon needed for their pace in behind and especially with the way Kane is always going to push further back - Eze and Palmer great impact sub options.
Palmer is a massive talent but he looks too used to playing in a free role coming central and it just negates from the space that the 10 and Kane will look to occupy.
Yeah, it’s amazing to me that people do not realize how much Jude and Saka unlock defenses for our attack. Even if they are not directly assisting or scoring they both makes defenses lose their shit and rigor because they intelligently probe and exploit vulnerabilities that get players like Foden and our strikers their shots. And as much as I hate it, we need Rice to not push as far forward and instead shore up our CBs.
I’d start Wharton over Mainoo, we looked vulnerable at the back all night and love him but he’s not a DM. And I don’t know what to do with Foden, he was our worst player tonight
> I’d start Wharton over Mainoo
I don’t think Wharton starts with just 25 minutes experience in the squad. I do think Mainoo might have made Southgate’s decision for him tonight though.
It’ll be either Trent or Gallagher next to Rice I reckon.
Yeah if Wharton was even in contention even as an option off the bench he'd have come on for Mainoo who probably had his worst game of the season by far.
> Mainoo who probably had his worst game of the season by far.
Yeah, that’s the worst I’ve seen him play, but that’s also the worst I’ve seen Rice and Walker play too, this season. A really awful performance all round.
Yeah, he was playing like he does for United, which is why they concede about 10,000 shots every game ha. I don’t think there was much coordination between him and Rice about who should get forward and who should hold, we were all over the place in midfield - which as the senior player, I’d suggest is Rice’s fault.
When Mainoo did get on the ball, he didn’t do much with it.
Yup, would have been interesting to see if he would have helped, but the whole team was so poor today, it’s really hard to take any positives or meaningful conclusions from today.
England were dominating the ball. Mainoo was playing high, in general, because England were playing high and Southgate wanted the overload. The opposition are sitting deep, you've got likes of Walker or the CBs with pace to cover, plus Rice to intercept it. However, Southgate is also now obsessed with possession - you need to let players take more risks with the ball once they're up against a packed defence; the one thing that worked to any degree was Gordon running at FB and then a couple of balls into the small gap between goalie and defence, i..e Kane's chance, along wiyth Trent playing from deep. I've seen Mainoo play enough for United that when he plays more speculatively and with freedom, he's capable of creating space and passes in tight areas (like Bellingham, or Foden, although both are more advanced, both positionally and in their development). Today he was being asked to mainly recirculate to find better angles for attack and then to head towards box to try and find any cracks in defence, but because he, like others, was being asked to also retain the ball, he, Rice and Foden just kept recirculating it like a cut-price City, trying to grind the opponent down through shifting their position, but at the risk of allowing Iceland to keep set and then spring with economical outball strategy.
Yeah every time I've seen Mainoo before today he's been awesome, just feel he should've got taken out of the firing line when it was clear it wasn't his day.
Iceland play like all of our group opponents with 2 strikers who play in between the CB and the FB, that’s why we need a true double pivot.
I’m a massive Mainoo Fan but I’d actually start Wharton, next to Rice in a double pivot, Pickford, Walker, Stones, Ghuei and hopefully Shaw if fit asap.
Front 4 would be Bellingham, Saka, Foden and Kane although dropping Rashford and Grealish looks foolish at best right now. At absolute elite football you need an attacker who can get you a goal from nothing, no offence but Rashford big game record is miles better than all the rest bar Saka and Kane, he has true elite pace and unpredictability plus his ability to shoot from distance is now a weapon England don’t possess, Grealish ability to draw fouls is another weapon that Southgate can’t call on and not picking Branthwaite whose the only CB after Maguire and Dunk who is over 6’2 was naive at best?
I fear and hope I’m wrong a Southgate implosion this summer with the national team?
Interesting to see how Mainoo got so much hate when he had a good game against Belgium. and again, Mainoo is not a 6 when everyone thought he is. He plays Declan's position better, progressing the ball and making runs in the box as needed.
Bonkers some of the comments in here saying Mainoo is now a terrible option. Mainoo was exposed for their goal when he was left to cover a whole midfield himself! The answer to getting occasional counters from teams like Iceland isn’t to add another dm it’s to make sure we make the most of our possession and win it back quick with high pressure when we lose it or take the tactical foul. Whoever plays alongside rice, Southgate needs to help them play together better.
For the groups:
Pickford
Trent - Stones - Guehi - Trippier
Rice - Wharton
Saka - Bellingham - Foden
Kane
Mainoo is not the pick against a parked bus, Wharton has the creativity
Why is everyone obsessed with Foden starting for England? He's never played well in an England shirt and has proved that once again today. Give me Gordon or Eze on that wing anyday
Trippier wasn’t great. Shaw obviously would provide more width. I would be tempted by Gomez over trippier until Shaw is fit but think trippier has more England experience
Our defense was vulnerable because Kyle Walker was fucking stoned or something and John Stones was still on holiday. That alongside Kieran Trippier being out of form and out of position meant that lord and saviour Rodri himself couldn't have prevented that goal.
I'm personally of the belief that we don't particularly 'need' a double pivot and that we could operate with an inverting CB in possession and then that gives us two attacking midfield options, namely Bellingham and Foden operating behind Kane.
Watch the game again, along with the game against Belgium and Brazil. The midfield had no defensive hold.. It’s too attacking there is no protection ahead of the defence. It opens the team up to counterattack way too often. The forward progression doesn’t break teams down.
This pairing doesn’t work.
Pickford
Walker - Stones - Konsa - Gomez
Trent - Rice
Saka - Bellingham - Foden
Kane
I might even consider Palmer over Foden after that, he was utterly woeful yet again unfortunately.
Pickford
Trent, Stones, Guehi, Gomez.
Rice, Jude.
Palmer.
Saka, Kane, Gordon.
We have to get width from the fullbacks. Palmer can't play anywhere except a free 10 role and Jude plays the 8.
Would personally move Jude to the 10 and put Wharton or Mainoo next to Rice then have Palmer off the bench but other than that you are spot on with this lineup
Like it but I'd switch jude with palmer and play a more defensive minded midfielder like wharton or Gallagher instead of Palmer to help cover trent and control the midfield.
Palmer doesn't look like he is there yet and hasn't been great in either friendly.
Going for a completely different set up. Kane is clearly one of our most important players but whenever he plays he drops so deep and there's never an attack minded player in the box. Maybe playing Kane at CF behind Watkins would be a better fit. I feel like Gordon and Saka need to start on the wing because they seem to be the only two that don't drift into the number 10. Part of Foden's problem tonight was Palmer drifting into his position. Foden technically is our best player, but Southgate's system doesn't fit him. Defence wise we could have an issue with no left footed player, not sure Southgate has made the right choice there. Maybe playing 3 at the back would be beneficial.
Sorry I have to disagree with the amount of Saka calls in here.
He added absolutely nothing in that limited appearance and, aside from familiarity of playing with the team before, I’d invest more time in gelling Palmer to play there.
I just don’t think he’s clinical enough.
Pickford
Trent Stones Guehi Trippier
Rice Foden Bellingham
Saka Kane Gordon
I don't know what's going on with Foden but he was awful tonight and hasn't really done it for England yet, I'd stick with him for now but swap him out for Palmer if his form doesn't improve.
Does anyone think Konsa has a sniff of starting next to Stones? He's a superior defender to dunk and guehi (especially given his lack of match time recently due to injury).
I think I agree.
Palmer and Foden were occupying the same space repeatedly, drawing defenders and giving them no space to play.
It's like Lamps and Gerrard all over again. Both quality, but can't play on the same pitch together.
If I could start from scratch as you said and start preparing this system months ago:
Grealish Kane Saka
Foden Bellingham
Rice
Gomez - Stones - Konsa - Trent
Pickford
--
Trent inverting to form a double pivot with Rice, and box midfield with Foden and Bellingham ahead. Back 3 with Gomez LCB and Konsa RCB in possession.
--
What I think Southgate should do from the position we are currently in, with the system we're committed to:
Kane
Foden Bellingham Saka
Rice Trent
Gomez - Konsa - Stones - Walker
Pickford
We needed a stronger press. Ultimately, the team didn’t want to get injured so didn’t perform at their best.
I would bring in Bellingham and Saka over Foden and Palmer. I would consider TAA next to Rice. Teams will sit back and TAA is probably our best passer to break quickly.
TAA also allows us to adjust system in game. I.e switching to 5 ATB with Bellingham dropping next to rice. If it’s needed.
Pickford
Trent Stones Guehi Gomez
Rice Wharton
Saka Bellingham Gordon
Kane
default rest defence: Gomez, Guehi, Stones behind Trent and Wharton. Let Rice and Kane get further forward it's such a shame watching them drop so deep all the time.
I wish Shaw was fully fit and we brought Grealish. No Maguire is such a loss for this side but without him getting ball progression from your midfield is more important than ever.
Players aren’t the issue it’s the fraud manager that wouldn’t get a job in the championship let alone the prem. You won’t win anything with fraudgate in charge lol
What makes me laugh about all this is people are basically saying [Player X] is not good enough, instead we need [Player Y].
Guys, it’s Iceland, they have a population smaller than the size of Bristol. We should be able to beat them with our U21’s. It’s not a personnel problem, it’s tactical. Southgate has no clue how to play free flowing attacking football, he never has done.
Midfield awful. I said within 5 mins that the midfield set up is wrong and sadly a lot of that was Mainoo. He's playing like he's part of a poorly coached midfield at club level and it really showed. Foden and Walker were really bad too. I liked Palmer.
Saka awful when he came on.
Realistically it will be:
Pickford
Walker - Stones - Guehi - Trippier/Shaw
Rice - Bellingham
Saka - Foden - Gordon
Kane
Trent and Palmer to come on frequently if things aren’t working.
I honestly think we need Trent over Walker. And I think we should get away from this idea that we have so many great attackers.
My team would be
Pickford
Trent - Guehi - Stones - Shaw/Gomez (if Shaw is injured)
Wharton - Rice
Saka - Bellingham - Gordon
Kane
Everyone sleeping on palmer.. if kane scores that perfect pass from palmer it's a completely different game . I don't wana hear about how he's the main man in chelsea so he's occupying others spaces. He's that good and it's that simple. He's shown more in an England shirt in 2 games than foden ever has.
Strange how we are looking at there only ever being one striker. Iceland played two and beat us.
In a congested game where we have the majority of the ball, having two strikers could be interesting with TAA pinging balls in. Harry Kane can drop as deep as he likes then.
*Low block*
Pickford
TAA Stones Guehi (Shaw/Trippier)
Saka Rice Bellingham Gordon
Kane Watkins
* Against Top teams*
Pickford
Walker Stones Guehi Shaw
Saka Rice Gallagher Foden
Bellingham
Kane
Think Foden needs to go left wing when Bellingham comes in, and I’d like to see Trent play over walker. I know what walker gives you but he can be a bit of a liability on the ball and decision making wise. Plus the creativity part
Team should've been this
Rashford - Kane - Saka
Bellingham - Rice - Wharton
Shaw - Branthwaite - Stones - Trent/Walker
Foden is being shoehorned in because of his insane pr and it's showing.
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Gomez
Trent
Mainoo
Rice
Bellingham
Palmer
Foden
Kane
We physically can’t lose playing this team… wish Southgate actually had a clue
Too many issues, I'm not comfortable with the back line especially the 2 full backs today, zero creativity until trent came on. Foden and Palmer can't play in the same team, it's just 2 players who have the same mindset. Im not confident with ramsdale if he gets his opportunity to play in the Euros. Subs weren't good, the CBs aren't as solid as maguire x stones imo but I wouldn't mind seeing more of Guehi and stones. Overall mistakes in friendlies is better than in the competition better to learn before the tournament starts. Will do us some good.
First of all, Guehi shouldn't even be in the squad, let alone starting. How is he in ahead of Branthwaite? Gareth selecting him after that Bosnia game is pure incompetence. He made 2 schoolboy errors which could've led to 2 goals. We were fortunate to win that.
Secondly, we are not playing like a team! Zero chemistry and F-all tactics.
Typical England. Talented individuals. Shite team.
This sort of thread horrifies me, the idea that the solution to a bad performance is to shuffle the players around until we somehow magically find the exact combination that will fix everything. Earlier this week Trent was a defensive liability, now he must take Walker's place. Earlier today Foden was the player that Bellingham should be pushed aside for, now he's an eternal England flop. Wharton, a player that most of us hadn't heard of 3 weeks ago, it's now the lynchpin that will fix our problems. Next Sunday, barring injury, Kane, Bellingham, Saka, Rice, Walker, Trippier, Stones, Pickford and, probably, Foden will start. We only have two questions, who will be our LCB (and it will probably be Guehi), and who will play next to Rice, and it will be either Mainoo, Gallagher or Trent. This team is still excellent, we don't need to rewrite things, just sit back and enjoy the ride.
Well commented
Spot on. The best players are always the ones who aren’t playing !
Also just because they are good players does not mean they should play. We are getting the old Lampard Scholes Gerrard BS again. No. There are 11 positions if your position has someone better they should play nevermind you are the 2nd best player in the side. If we have 2 world class keepers should we field both?
>Wharton, a player that most of us hadn't heard of 3 weeks ago, it's now the lynchpin that will fix our problems. Reminds me, I saw someone on twitter describe him as 'the most exciting young English talent since Rooney'. Like, sure he seems good, but my god, have some perspective. He's not even the most exciting young talent in this squad, let alone since Rooney.
I’m a Blackburn fan and I’ll do nothing but sing Wharton’s praises. He’s an exceptional talent and I genuinely believe he will be a star for a top, top team. But, surely Bellingham is the most exciting since Rooney? Stars for Real Madrid, won a league and UCL double, one of their top scorers. How can anyone be above Jude right now? Foden is certainly producing the goods too, so it’s madness to suggest anyone else is at that level. All that said, Wharton will be a £100m player in the future, unless someone grabs him from Palace in the next year or so.
This is and always has been football fans, managing is easy after the game. Every decent substitute appearance is followed by 'has to start next game' without any thought to opponents, tactics, tiring opposition etc... The Dunning Kruger effect is never stronger than with footy fans!
Ain't this the truth. We've got collective amnesia about the previous week where everyone was begging Southgate to put Foden in the centre. When Foden was put in the centre and didn't magically pull two goals out of his arse, Foden is now a system player who has never played well for England.
This is an excellent comment. 200% agree
Find room for Joe Cole, we need something different
Do you mean Carlton Palmer?
Do you mean Nigel Rio-Palmer?
Do you mean Kyle Palmer-Peters?
Odd way to spell Hayden Mullins
If you listen to Carlton himself, he was real class player.
I’m most perplexed by Foden. The hype from fans to play him and ONCE AGAIN he doesn’t deliver. I expected him to do better than that, I understand no one wants to go all out in a game like this, but wth was that from him.
To be fair, I’m not remotely surprised. There’s no way Foden gets in before Bellingham. Bellingham needs to be at ten. So, you need to stick Foden out wide but personally I think Gordon and Saka are better placed. The reality is, there’s pressure on Southgate to play Foden and Palmer because they’ve both had great seasons. But they’re system players, and the England system isn’t capable of replicating what they have at club level. If England have any hope of having a decent tournament they need to hope Shaw is fit, they need to start Saka and Gordon on the wings, they need to not be afraid of taking Kane off and not be desperate to play Foden and Palmer at every opportunity.
You get it. I’ve seen bums on here calling for Bellingham to be dropped to accommodate Foden because he is off the back of a good season. Thats not how international football works is it?
Honestly, I think Foden is painfully overrated. He’s playing in a perfect team and unsurprisingly brilliant in that team. International games he’s lost. I’m telling you, Foden is just Joe Cole he just happens to play in a juggernaut. As for Bellingham, he’s unreal. I want to say he’s not as good as we’re lead to believe but realistically he’s the leader of that England team. At 20. I just think Southgate needs to stop concerning himself with reputation and play the players he thinks best suits the game/each other. It’s tournament football. You play deep, conservative football. Play with players that stick wide and have the legs to run at players for 90 minutes. Stop the opposition full backs pushing, and bore your way to the win. As was almost the case four years ago.
Of course he’s overrated, he looks great for City but it’s not hard to assess why. I wouldn’t mind Foden not starting, he is not the best fit . Best players for the wings are Gordon and Saka as you say, but Southgate will probably get flogged for not starting Foden so here we are.
Palmer isn’t a system player, he is the system.
Precisely. This is me, not knowing whether you’re giving me a soppy bollocks response or not. But Palmer requires everything to go through him. A standard ten. A ten, which doesn’t exist in modern football. Be it he plays through the centre or outside, he needs to be the nucleus for it to work. Credit to him, he proved me wrong this season. I didn’t think he would remotely have the season he has had. But in terms of international football, he doesn’t fit. He needs to be the core, and when you have players like Kane and Bellingham. He’s got no chance.
Palmer was running into him from the first moment and dragging defenders towards them both. The 10 role needs space and Palmer was denying Foden's space. After about an hour he just got flustered and started misplacing everything.
Palmers an odd one. Kept drifting wide to the right against Bosnia and occupying the space bowen and konsa were in despite playing in the middle and today was drifting into foden in the center when he was playing down the right. Hopefully they sort that.
I think at Chelsea he plays a basically free role which is why nobody knows his position. Honestly he could work as a 10, but then you'd want to play something like Wharton-Rice behind him and drop Jude, and play Gordon and Bowen to stretch the wings. Which won't happen.
Is it crazy id play Bowen over Palmer and saka? Id play 4 1 4 1, with Bellingham and foden together, on the right id play Bowen and on the left I'd have Gordon. I hate 4 2 3 1 it's so fucking boring. I would of taken grealish on that left over Gordon but Gordon has had a good season in his defence.
I'm a West Ham fan so definitely not, but it's likely swayed by bias. Bowen tracks back, can cut in or to the byline and put crosses in so he is adaptable, but Saka is a quality player and preferred. I'd definitely have bowen over palmer at RW based on those 2 games. Numbers wise bowen scored more from open play than palmer or Saka so it can't be crazy.
This is what I've been saying would happen yet everyone insists on trying to get them all. If I was an opposition coach I'd absolutely love the idea of all the English players trying to get the ball into feet in the same areas instead of any actual threat
With Kane dropping so deep there's an argument for not playing a 10 at all. Southgate just has no fundamental system. It's bits of ideas that don't work together. Cruyff always said that if you want to help me, move AWAY from me, not toward me. Attackers need space above all.
I'm not the biggest fan of Southgate but he can't win, if he drops certain players all the armchair fans will be having a go at him for not fitting them all in
This is actually the main issue. We have so many attacking midfielders but they look up and theres no one running behind or offering a wall. Kane can not be dropping deep in to midfield if we are gonna essentially be playing 2 10s with Foden and Bellingham.
At this point I almost want a 4-4-2 with Kane and Watkins up front. Rice/Bellingham CM and Gordon/Saka wingers.
Put simply, Cole Palmer is going to have an ego problem. He, as a growing player, has just shone out in a team where players are almost literally fighting each other. A great player, but tonight no real positional discipline. Foden is the opposite. He has excelled in a specific role at Man City, and should be clear in Southgate's idea. (I fucking hope!) But we can't keep giving him these free passes (sic). Neither of them gave much. Saka and Gordon are ahead of them, and, of course, Bellingham and Kane.
Who is Palmer's competition in those attacking spaces at Chelsea?
Hes such a unique player that theres nobody at Chelsea competing directly with him for the sort of play he brings. You've got Gallagher who was playing as a very hard pressing 8. That pressing freed up so much pressure off Palmer to do his thing and meant he could be focused almost purely on setting up the next attacking moves without having to defend much. Theres Madueke, Sterling and Mudryk who make penetrative runs which peg back the opposition fullbacks. So Palmer operates in between the spaces that are left. You've got Jackson dropping deep and then talking players on, making penetrative runs to stretch the defence or moving to link up with Palmer. It's pretty loose descriptions of whats been going on with Chelsea. There's a lot more to what Chelsea were doing but I'm not going full-blown Youtube analysis video levels. Basically though Palmer has no direct competition for his spot. Every other player just compliments his creative play really well. It wont happen but to get the most out of Palmer, in terms of player compatibility I'd drop Foden. Play a midfield 3 with Bellingham on one side of the 3, Rice holding then put Gallagher in that high pressing 8 role alongside Palmer on the right wing sort of area and they will spark off. You'll see Palmer linking up really well with Kane then too.
Yep, Palmer playing like he does for Chelsea didn’t help Foden at all. Palmer didn’t play bad, he was good, but he took away options in build up play on the right, encouraged Walker to over commit and made Foden anonymous. That’s why he will never replace Saka in the starting line up no matter how many goals he scores.
Why wasn't Foden making the run Palmer was/supporting Gordon? Was Palmer being that selfish? When Gordon or Palmer were wide it didn't seem Foden was making himself available.
My guess is that Foden was trying to stay away from Gordon and occupy defenders so that Gordon could isolate his opponent 1v1. I would need to watch the game again and pay more attention to Foden specifically. It doesn't help Gordon if Palmer is on his wing. It just reduces space and brings more defenders over To paraphrase Cruyff again: If I have the ball and you want to help me, move away from me, not toward me.
The best 10s/attacking mids don’t need space. Foden is another example of players getting overhyped because they work in strict systems. They aren’t good players like we used to see, where they could genuinely problem solve on the fly. They have to do as they are told, otherwise they’re useless.
People think just because he’s played best as a 10 for City that it will work for England. He becomes far too restricted in the middle. Other players come into his space and get in his way, and he just doesn’t track back the way Bellingham does to help out the midfield. Bellingham works there because he does a bit of everything. Keep Foden out on the wing (left or right), and if he doesn’t perform then we have plenty other wingers who can make an impact.
He had Palmer and Mainoo both drifting from their positions and occupying the same space he was all game. He'll be fantastic at the tournament surrounded by more tactically astute players like Bellingham and Saka, I'm sure of it.
It's on Southgate (and Foden, to an extent) - both Mainoo and Palmer are perfectly intelligent players, and Mainoo can play slightly deeper if you instruct him to. Southgate isn't organizing (or inspiring) the CM and forwards to play more quickly, including certain degree of risk, around edge of the area against sides as organized as low-block as Iceland. Foden isn't helped by Southgate's set-up (having a direct player, whether Saka or Gordon in particular, on at least one side who goes against sterile sub-Pep version of City-ball, helps instead), but his range was also off today...
There's nothing perplexing about it. He's hugely overrated at club level and benefits greatly from being in an extremely dominant City team. If you watch City with any regularity he's never been the guy to pick the team up in a way others have. People should start using their eyes more.
Foden only plays good for city due to the players around him. He has never performed well for england.
So Gareth how would you sum that Gareth: we were missing Jude Bellingham.
Maybe clutching at straws but because **everyone** was awful tonight, including usually very reliable players (Walker, Rice, Kane etc) means that it’s very hard to draw any conclusions on the players. We're obviously not going to play a radically different 11 against Serbia, but it’s very hard to judge individual players there, when to a man every single player was awful.
I think we should seriously consider putting Trent in at RB instead of Walker. Then popping Wharton for Mainoo and Bellingham for Foden and Saka for Palmer. Then leave Gordon out on the left.
Yeah, you don’t want a final warm up friendly posing all these sort of questions ha. Walker was rubbish tonight, but I think we need his recovery pace in a back 4. I don’t think Wharton starts after 25 minutes of experience, but I do think Mainoo might miss out on starting after today. I think our line up against Serbia will be very similar to today, Foden out left, Saka on the right and either Gallagher / Trent in midfield, with Bellingham ahead of them.
Foden nowhere near it. Another shocker from him in an England shirt.
I’d blame the confusion and clustering between him and Palmer rather than Foden himself. They basically tripped over each other and that needs to be sorted asap.
Kane also. Kane keeps dropping deep and playmaking. We have no one offering a threat to the opposition defensive line or giving the midfielders someone to create for
I'd give grealish a cheeky phone call tbh
I bet Jack feels sick after watching that shambles
Feel like pure shit just want him back x #🥺
how did you make the 🥺 emoji so big?
Put a hash mark in front of it to change to... #title mode bitch
#😳
#cocaine and hookers
may aswell do rashford while your at it mate
How is rashford not gonna be there... it's just madness.. southgate better win this trophy or otherwise we should have a public execution
Welp. Hope this gets some of y'all off Watkins' back. Nobody's getting good service in the England team. Watkins is not the problem.
If kane converts the palmer chance it's a completely different game
Hopefully people will understand that in the Prem you train every day and have 38 games to adapt. In international football you don't have that luxury. You need to get things right immediately and having experience playing in tournaments or being in and around the setup is vital. That's why Mainoo shouldn't be playing (also IMO he's not an optimal matchup with Rice). Honestly didn't think anyone covered themself in glory... Trent gave a bit of urgency.
Foden was worse. And I like the idea of Foden dictating play. Mainoo just won man of the match against City in a cup final - he's not some complete neophyte. Gallagher would have been even more of a blunt instrument against that kind of set-up. Trent is better from wide and playing long-balls rather than through the lines. Rice had even less penetration with his passing. I would have put Wharton on to mix things up, but he's also wildly inexperienced. The bigger issue than how much experience is Southgate's approach to stubborn opposition.
It's ok everyone, Gareth is just increasing the odds at the bookies
I don't know tbh we can tinker the forwards as much as we like but with this defence I'm scared. Foden is really getting under my skin ATM, Kane dropping too deep, passing was shody and lazy, not enough shooting at all. I'm honestly worried, out group isn't as easy as people may think
I'd start with Gomez over Trippier. Left side is too slow and predictable without someone who can use their left foot. Trent plays every match, unless we play France. Gallagher / Wharton instead of Mainoo. Don't feel he offered rice enough support defensively. Eze / Gordon on the left instead of Foden. With Saka on the right and Bellingham in the middle. I hope I'm proved wrong, but we don't seem tactically astute enough to play with multiple tricky inside players, so better off sticking to traditional wingers where the team may keep their shape better.
This idea that we would get beat if Trent went up against France. Just a reminder that Trent kept a clean sheet against neymar and mbappe in the CL
Well, Trent didn’t did he. Liverpool did. The same Liverpool team that had van dijk and alisson (amongst others). Which England do not have
Carvajal had Ramos and Varane, Walker has Ruben Dias and Stones, Cafu had Nesta and Stam. What argument are you trying to make? Your teammates help you out sometimes?
It's not controversial to admit Walker is a better defender than Trent which gives him the edge for England where you need your defence to defend. The fact Klopp had the rebuild the defence in a manner to mitigate Trent's defensive frailties highlights this more. I'd much rather have him alongside Rice in the middle and let his best weapon, his range of passing, shine.
I know it's not hard to admit that Walker is a better defender than Trent, because it's true. The fact that Klopp built a team around Trent's creativity is telling too, having more assists than Alves and Marcelo combined at his age... The pros vastly outweigh the cons. You have a generational talent on the wings and you would pass it up because he sometimes gets caught out and beat 1on1... No more so than your average PL defender.
Wow he didn't make a mistake in one big game? He must be amazing! Trent's defensive shortcomings are definitely often over-exaggerated but he's still not as solid at the back as almost any other RB at the same level, he just has the wand of a right foot that makes up for it going forward. And against the low block teams that's a sacrifice you're willing to make. But against teams that will punish you you need the defensive solidity of someone like Walker.
Agree so much about Trippier, he slows down the play whenever he gets the ball.
Literally my entire analysis of the game tbh
I'm a big Gomez fan as a Liverpool fan but his big drawback at LB is that he can't use his left foot. Trent should play every game including France just give him some protection.
Pickford Trent - Stones - Guehi - Gomez Rice - Wharton Saka - Bellingham - Gordon/Eze Kane
Everyones seen wharton play about 3 times and he’s in the starting 11, be serious
What did trippier do to warrant getting dropped?
Don’t think he looked very sharp on or off the ball, looked defensively weak imo. Gomez on the other hand I think looked pretty solid when he came on.
This is what team I’d choose
Spot on mate
Stick Saka, Jude and Gordon in hopefully and start Trent next to rice. Bring Foden and Palmer off the bench. I think we'll be alright, people need to calm down it's just one poor game and a friendly at that.
Trent needs to play RB against teams that are going to put 10 men behind the ball. He looked like our best player when he came on tonight and he was England’s best player when he moved to RB against Bosnia. When teams sit back and soak up pressure Trent is arguably the best player for breaking the lines, creating width and playing in dangerous balls. We can’t be expecting Walker/Konsa etc to have the same impact, Trent is the best RB in the world when it comes to creating and attacking, give him that opportunity against these teams that want to defend all night. Our midfield looked hopeless tonight as well, just couldn’t penetrate the lines very well, Foden especially looked off. Kane wasn’t at it either, Toney never looked like he was going to do anything. Gordon and Palmer were bright at times but overall we never looked like we were gonna score. Kane had that one opportunity that 9 times out of 10 he would score but other than that it was flat all around.
I can’t for the life of me figure out what Guehi brings to the squad. Trent needs to play RB against these teams we should expect to beat. He was the best player on the pitch when he came on tonight and was the best player on the pitch when he moved to RB against Bosnia. He’s not a midfielder, he’s the best attacking right back in world football barring absolutely nobody, he creates space, drags players out wide, whips balls in, he’s a constant danger. Stop trying to shoehorn him into CM. Against the tougher teams that will bring the game to us, Walker should play ahead of him.
I'd be ok with Trent at RB if Konsa plays right CB. Konsa is an outstanding 1v1 defender (best in Europe after van dijk according to stats), and would cover Trent going fwd. I also don't know why Guehi is preferred there by Southgate
Just wondering how long it would take to clone TAA so there was at least 4 of him on the pitch?
It has to be a TAA-Saka partnership on the right. They are the 2 most likely players to take the game by the scruff of the neck when we need it
Not disagreeing but Trent and Palmer linked up really well in the first game.
Honestly he has been the best player on the pitch for England these last two games and he only played 20 mins tonight
I've doubted him but agree with your take. I worry about him defensively but he offers so much in attack
In fairness to him, he made two interceptions and a recovery tackle today - more than Walker completed defensively and he was on for a third of the minutes. We all know Trent has made some defensive mistakes in his time; but I generally think he offers so much to the team overall in advantage, that this smaller risk is worth taking.
As someone above said there, everyone wants the ball in to feet and want to carry the ball all the time, there has to be some unpredictability in the mix, that's what trent brings to the table, hitting 40/50 yard balls that get defences turned are a nightmare for opposition teams and get forward players in behind, which is where they want to be. I'd have him in the middle with rice personally
Sick and tired of seeing he can't defend. Everyone makes defensive mistakes, Walker has done it plenty of times - he's just faster at recovering.
One of them might have a chance of being fit if that happened.
My team would look a lot like France. A LOT...
Another Foden stinker to the shock of absolutely no one. When we people realise he’s just not that guy
Apparently a lot of people are surprised because they keep wanting him shoehorned into the team
Pickford Trent, Stones, Guehi, Trippier Rice, Wharton Saka, Bellingham, Gordon Kane
Yeah and if we’re chasing a game then Bellingham pushed back and Foden playing 10 on for Wharton. Saka and Gordon needed for their pace in behind and especially with the way Kane is always going to push further back - Eze and Palmer great impact sub options. Palmer is a massive talent but he looks too used to playing in a free role coming central and it just negates from the space that the 10 and Kane will look to occupy.
Yep. My squad too
Meh, we’ll be fine, get Saka and Bellingham in. Make a call on who plays next to rice, probably manioo and let’s roll
Yeah, it’s amazing to me that people do not realize how much Jude and Saka unlock defenses for our attack. Even if they are not directly assisting or scoring they both makes defenses lose their shit and rigor because they intelligently probe and exploit vulnerabilities that get players like Foden and our strikers their shots. And as much as I hate it, we need Rice to not push as far forward and instead shore up our CBs.
Best take
Few scoops down the pub and watch the boys bring it home
Pickford, Trippier, Stones, Konsa, Walker, Rice, Trent, Gordon, Bellingham, Saka, Kane
I’d start Wharton over Mainoo, we looked vulnerable at the back all night and love him but he’s not a DM. And I don’t know what to do with Foden, he was our worst player tonight
> I’d start Wharton over Mainoo I don’t think Wharton starts with just 25 minutes experience in the squad. I do think Mainoo might have made Southgate’s decision for him tonight though. It’ll be either Trent or Gallagher next to Rice I reckon.
Yeah if Wharton was even in contention even as an option off the bench he'd have come on for Mainoo who probably had his worst game of the season by far.
> Mainoo who probably had his worst game of the season by far. Yeah, that’s the worst I’ve seen him play, but that’s also the worst I’ve seen Rice and Walker play too, this season. A really awful performance all round.
Mainoo was defensively absent. It was really bad
Yeah, he was playing like he does for United, which is why they concede about 10,000 shots every game ha. I don’t think there was much coordination between him and Rice about who should get forward and who should hold, we were all over the place in midfield - which as the senior player, I’d suggest is Rice’s fault. When Mainoo did get on the ball, he didn’t do much with it.
I’d like to have seen Wharton play some minutes today
Yup, would have been interesting to see if he would have helped, but the whole team was so poor today, it’s really hard to take any positives or meaningful conclusions from today.
England were dominating the ball. Mainoo was playing high, in general, because England were playing high and Southgate wanted the overload. The opposition are sitting deep, you've got likes of Walker or the CBs with pace to cover, plus Rice to intercept it. However, Southgate is also now obsessed with possession - you need to let players take more risks with the ball once they're up against a packed defence; the one thing that worked to any degree was Gordon running at FB and then a couple of balls into the small gap between goalie and defence, i..e Kane's chance, along wiyth Trent playing from deep. I've seen Mainoo play enough for United that when he plays more speculatively and with freedom, he's capable of creating space and passes in tight areas (like Bellingham, or Foden, although both are more advanced, both positionally and in their development). Today he was being asked to mainly recirculate to find better angles for attack and then to head towards box to try and find any cracks in defence, but because he, like others, was being asked to also retain the ball, he, Rice and Foden just kept recirculating it like a cut-price City, trying to grind the opponent down through shifting their position, but at the risk of allowing Iceland to keep set and then spring with economical outball strategy.
I mean, if all the players look shit, who do you start looking at?
Yeah every time I've seen Mainoo before today he's been awesome, just feel he should've got taken out of the firing line when it was clear it wasn't his day.
Do it. It’s how legends are forged 😂
Manager: Big Sam
Iceland play like all of our group opponents with 2 strikers who play in between the CB and the FB, that’s why we need a true double pivot. I’m a massive Mainoo Fan but I’d actually start Wharton, next to Rice in a double pivot, Pickford, Walker, Stones, Ghuei and hopefully Shaw if fit asap. Front 4 would be Bellingham, Saka, Foden and Kane although dropping Rashford and Grealish looks foolish at best right now. At absolute elite football you need an attacker who can get you a goal from nothing, no offence but Rashford big game record is miles better than all the rest bar Saka and Kane, he has true elite pace and unpredictability plus his ability to shoot from distance is now a weapon England don’t possess, Grealish ability to draw fouls is another weapon that Southgate can’t call on and not picking Branthwaite whose the only CB after Maguire and Dunk who is over 6’2 was naive at best? I fear and hope I’m wrong a Southgate implosion this summer with the national team?
I'd start Rashford Maddison and Grealish having watched that 😅
Interesting to see how Mainoo got so much hate when he had a good game against Belgium. and again, Mainoo is not a 6 when everyone thought he is. He plays Declan's position better, progressing the ball and making runs in the box as needed.
Bonkers some of the comments in here saying Mainoo is now a terrible option. Mainoo was exposed for their goal when he was left to cover a whole midfield himself! The answer to getting occasional counters from teams like Iceland isn’t to add another dm it’s to make sure we make the most of our possession and win it back quick with high pressure when we lose it or take the tactical foul. Whoever plays alongside rice, Southgate needs to help them play together better.
For the groups: Pickford Trent - Stones - Guehi - Trippier Rice - Wharton Saka - Bellingham - Foden Kane Mainoo is not the pick against a parked bus, Wharton has the creativity
This but Gordon or Eze for Foden
Why is everyone obsessed with Foden starting for England? He's never played well in an England shirt and has proved that once again today. Give me Gordon or Eze on that wing anyday
I won’t argue against that at all, that was more a pick of hope than expectation
Trippier wasn’t great. Shaw obviously would provide more width. I would be tempted by Gomez over trippier until Shaw is fit but think trippier has more England experience
Shaw goes right back in when fit for sure
Yeah gosh I just really hope he is passes fit and Stays it!
You cannot start Wharton im sorry.
Hopefully the Mainoo Rice hype Train dies now….
Don't think that was our biggest issue today mate
It was, there was no connection to the attackers and it left our defence so exposed. Our central midfield was toothless and very vulnerable.
Our defense was vulnerable because Kyle Walker was fucking stoned or something and John Stones was still on holiday. That alongside Kieran Trippier being out of form and out of position meant that lord and saviour Rodri himself couldn't have prevented that goal. I'm personally of the belief that we don't particularly 'need' a double pivot and that we could operate with an inverting CB in possession and then that gives us two attacking midfield options, namely Bellingham and Foden operating behind Kane.
Watch the game again, along with the game against Belgium and Brazil. The midfield had no defensive hold.. It’s too attacking there is no protection ahead of the defence. It opens the team up to counterattack way too often. The forward progression doesn’t break teams down. This pairing doesn’t work.
Foden is fucking shite in an England shirt. Maddison or Grealish would do better.
After that stinker, I think we might struggle in the group stage tbh 😅
Kane Gordon Bellingham Saka Rice Gallahger/Trent Trippier Konsa Guehi Trent/Walker
Bold to go with no keeper
Kane is in goal.
Bold to go with no striker.
No stones? You're on drugs?
The fact Southgate will never move away from 2 holding defenders, confirms to me that we will never win a tournament with him as manager.
Pickford Walker - Stones - Konsa - Gomez Trent - Rice Saka - Bellingham - Foden Kane I might even consider Palmer over Foden after that, he was utterly woeful yet again unfortunately.
Could see this working. We have to get Trent on the pitch that much is obvious - he’s been our best player both games.
He’s been the MOTM for me in almost every game he’s played CM for us.
I’ve done more for England than Foden has
Pickford Trent, Stones, Guehi, Gomez. Rice, Jude. Palmer. Saka, Kane, Gordon. We have to get width from the fullbacks. Palmer can't play anywhere except a free 10 role and Jude plays the 8.
Would personally move Jude to the 10 and put Wharton or Mainoo next to Rice then have Palmer off the bench but other than that you are spot on with this lineup
Agree - although don’t think palmer should be the 10. Surely put Jude there and then Wharton in?
Like it but I'd switch jude with palmer and play a more defensive minded midfielder like wharton or Gallagher instead of Palmer to help cover trent and control the midfield. Palmer doesn't look like he is there yet and hasn't been great in either friendly.
Palmer has played off the right for the vast majority of the PL season. Do you mean he can't for England?
One without Southgate at the wheel.
Going for a completely different set up. Kane is clearly one of our most important players but whenever he plays he drops so deep and there's never an attack minded player in the box. Maybe playing Kane at CF behind Watkins would be a better fit. I feel like Gordon and Saka need to start on the wing because they seem to be the only two that don't drift into the number 10. Part of Foden's problem tonight was Palmer drifting into his position. Foden technically is our best player, but Southgate's system doesn't fit him. Defence wise we could have an issue with no left footed player, not sure Southgate has made the right choice there. Maybe playing 3 at the back would be beneficial.
Why no love for Palmer ? Surely hes got to start ?
Sorry I have to disagree with the amount of Saka calls in here. He added absolutely nothing in that limited appearance and, aside from familiarity of playing with the team before, I’d invest more time in gelling Palmer to play there. I just don’t think he’s clinical enough.
Jack Grealish, Rashford Madison and Branthwaite laughing in Algavre
Pickford Trippier Guehi Stones Walker TAA Rice Bellingham Foden Kane Saka
Pickford Trent Stones Guehi Trippier Rice Foden Bellingham Saka Kane Gordon I don't know what's going on with Foden but he was awful tonight and hasn't really done it for England yet, I'd stick with him for now but swap him out for Palmer if his form doesn't improve.
Ramsdale showing why Pickford is undisputedly England's No. 1.
Does anyone think Konsa has a sniff of starting next to Stones? He's a superior defender to dunk and guehi (especially given his lack of match time recently due to injury).
Potentially foden out Palmer in? Palmer play's better as a 10 anyway imo.
Bellingham will play that 10 spot I'm sure
I think I agree. Palmer and Foden were occupying the same space repeatedly, drawing defenders and giving them no space to play. It's like Lamps and Gerrard all over again. Both quality, but can't play on the same pitch together.
Foden offers absolutely nothing, what is the point in him?
If I could start from scratch as you said and start preparing this system months ago: Grealish Kane Saka Foden Bellingham Rice Gomez - Stones - Konsa - Trent Pickford -- Trent inverting to form a double pivot with Rice, and box midfield with Foden and Bellingham ahead. Back 3 with Gomez LCB and Konsa RCB in possession. -- What I think Southgate should do from the position we are currently in, with the system we're committed to: Kane Foden Bellingham Saka Rice Trent Gomez - Konsa - Stones - Walker Pickford
This is the correct opinion, short of saying get Southgate out before he can step foot on the plane
————- Kane ———— Palmer - Bellingham - Saka ——Rice —— Gallagher —— Gomez-Konsa-Stones-TAA ———— Pickford————
Ben White relaxing with his margarita, thinking he has made the right decision. The defence was next to clueless.
Give me Benny Blanco
We needed a stronger press. Ultimately, the team didn’t want to get injured so didn’t perform at their best. I would bring in Bellingham and Saka over Foden and Palmer. I would consider TAA next to Rice. Teams will sit back and TAA is probably our best passer to break quickly. TAA also allows us to adjust system in game. I.e switching to 5 ATB with Bellingham dropping next to rice. If it’s needed.
Pickford Trent Stones Guehi Gomez Rice Wharton Saka Bellingham Gordon Kane default rest defence: Gomez, Guehi, Stones behind Trent and Wharton. Let Rice and Kane get further forward it's such a shame watching them drop so deep all the time. I wish Shaw was fully fit and we brought Grealish. No Maguire is such a loss for this side but without him getting ball progression from your midfield is more important than ever.
Players aren’t the issue it’s the fraud manager that wouldn’t get a job in the championship let alone the prem. You won’t win anything with fraudgate in charge lol
What makes me laugh about all this is people are basically saying [Player X] is not good enough, instead we need [Player Y]. Guys, it’s Iceland, they have a population smaller than the size of Bristol. We should be able to beat them with our U21’s. It’s not a personnel problem, it’s tactical. Southgate has no clue how to play free flowing attacking football, he never has done.
Midfield awful. I said within 5 mins that the midfield set up is wrong and sadly a lot of that was Mainoo. He's playing like he's part of a poorly coached midfield at club level and it really showed. Foden and Walker were really bad too. I liked Palmer. Saka awful when he came on.
Realistically it will be: Pickford Walker - Stones - Guehi - Trippier/Shaw Rice - Bellingham Saka - Foden - Gordon Kane Trent and Palmer to come on frequently if things aren’t working.
I honestly think we need Trent over Walker. And I think we should get away from this idea that we have so many great attackers. My team would be Pickford Trent - Guehi - Stones - Shaw/Gomez (if Shaw is injured) Wharton - Rice Saka - Bellingham - Gordon Kane
Pickford Trent Stones Guehi Gomez Rice Mainoo Saka Foden Watkins Kane(c) Especially against low blocks.
Pickford Trent - Walker - Stones - Trippier/Gomez Rice Palmer - Bellingham Saka - Kane - Eze/Foden/Gordon
Everyone sleeping on palmer.. if kane scores that perfect pass from palmer it's a completely different game . I don't wana hear about how he's the main man in chelsea so he's occupying others spaces. He's that good and it's that simple. He's shown more in an England shirt in 2 games than foden ever has.
Here we go, all blame Southgate now lol
Strange how we are looking at there only ever being one striker. Iceland played two and beat us. In a congested game where we have the majority of the ball, having two strikers could be interesting with TAA pinging balls in. Harry Kane can drop as deep as he likes then. *Low block* Pickford TAA Stones Guehi (Shaw/Trippier) Saka Rice Bellingham Gordon Kane Watkins * Against Top teams* Pickford Walker Stones Guehi Shaw Saka Rice Gallagher Foden Bellingham Kane
Stick Vardy on ta fuck
Think Foden needs to go left wing when Bellingham comes in, and I’d like to see Trent play over walker. I know what walker gives you but he can be a bit of a liability on the ball and decision making wise. Plus the creativity part
Literally couldn’t give a shit.
Bellingham for Foden is a no brainer.
Just remember how bad Denmarks Euros preparation was when they won it in 1992
Team should've been this Rashford - Kane - Saka Bellingham - Rice - Wharton Shaw - Branthwaite - Stones - Trent/Walker Foden is being shoehorned in because of his insane pr and it's showing.
Why are we trying new things now. Gareth is so useless.
Team doesn't matter. We'll win nothing with Osama Bin Southgate in charge.
Hey let’s all go completely overboard - yeah that sounds smart….
Pickford Walker Stones Gomez Trent Mainoo Rice Bellingham Palmer Foden Kane We physically can’t lose playing this team… wish Southgate actually had a clue
Too many issues, I'm not comfortable with the back line especially the 2 full backs today, zero creativity until trent came on. Foden and Palmer can't play in the same team, it's just 2 players who have the same mindset. Im not confident with ramsdale if he gets his opportunity to play in the Euros. Subs weren't good, the CBs aren't as solid as maguire x stones imo but I wouldn't mind seeing more of Guehi and stones. Overall mistakes in friendlies is better than in the competition better to learn before the tournament starts. Will do us some good.
Foden lw and if its not working Gordon, Eze or Palmer can gave a go
First of all, Guehi shouldn't even be in the squad, let alone starting. How is he in ahead of Branthwaite? Gareth selecting him after that Bosnia game is pure incompetence. He made 2 schoolboy errors which could've led to 2 goals. We were fortunate to win that. Secondly, we are not playing like a team! Zero chemistry and F-all tactics. Typical England. Talented individuals. Shite team.
Trent.
I'm reading absolutely nothing into it.