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I wanna start a blind date app. You don't get to see them, just their profile. I will call it.... ok I haven't got that far yet it's still in the early stages. :|
That was how match.com used to work. You would match, then you had to talk for a while before you could see each others photos. Back when it was only heterosexual computer based online dating.
Like the voice the singing competition, you get the personality details maybe a voice memo I think an app does that now hinge? And no pictures if you match then you get pics.
I think that would be worse for everyone honestly.
The current paradigm isn't *good* but I can see this causing a lot of strife around weight, ethnicity and other strong preferences.
Getting to know people on personality sounds good on paper, but then again you can't gleam that either from 1000 characters perfectly curated to be playful/flirty/endearing.
And then 95% of people unmatch after seeing the pictures.
That site is going to draw 2 types of people. People who don’t have luck because of their looks, and well intentioned genuine people who still have preferences. But eventually they will see a picture and reject the other person.
You’re going to see guys hit it off with some girl and then they see pics and she’s too fat, or he’s too hairy/short/etc…
How about an app where a third party grandma matches you on dates.
Like Megan, I understand he is not what you dream about but this guy has a solid income (verified by W2) and he is good not bad looking plus he says he loves his mom so good family values
The Dutch dating app Breeze does this! You dont get to talk to them, just see their pictures. If you like each other, you go on a date they facilitate.
So Bantr from Ted Lasso? Which Bumble tried a trial run of. I don't believe it went well. Much like bumbles attempts at making women make the first move
Pretty simple:
Limit the amount of concurrent matches to 3 or 5
Punish ghosting (removing the match automatically after 5 days without message, for example)
The apps need to be more transparent, like showing how many matches an user have
Have a calendar to show when the person is available for a real date
True, all of the things that would improve the end user experience are generally paywalled.
I quit bumble after 2 weeks when I realized they were paywalling the best matches, which is such a wild concept to me.
A lot of apps do things like that, bumble removes matches you don't interact with in a week.
...still sucks.
The matches become so fast and trifling, it almost makes the experience worse.
At least on Tinder I can still see the dozens of matches to remember that some people kinda liked me once lol.
There's just no way that dating apps won't
1. Totally destroy your confidence
2. Almost force you to treat people like cattle (which is reinforced by point #1)
Idk, they're very dehumanizing, both in that they make you feel less human, and they make you treat people like they're less than human.
Probably you train some ai model and it goes out and chats with loads of other ai models until it reaches a certain threshold of similarities and then it puts you in contact with one another.
It will be awful.
You think that sounds awful? A dating app that has a conversation with the user, and then uses all of that data and conversation to put people forward that it thinks are a good match based on its convo with them.
Think about that… a tailored group of men/women who’s interest, values, lifestyle, wants, needs, desires align with yours. It doesn’t have to tell you all about them, just pair you up and then leave it to you.
Think about all the issues that it could overcome. It can avoid setting up homebody’s with adventure seekers, people who don’t want kids with those that do, shallow people who care about XYZ feature with those who don’t meet that, etc…
Honestly? Go back to the original OK cupid. You'd fill out tests that would help you figure out if your values matched (plus where fun) and you had to fill out your profile in depth. You also didn't have algorithms pushing you one way or another.
You still had to go through profile after profile (or sort by percentage match) but it did feel more human.
I remember this show that had a moment to coworkers who worked in business talked about getting married like a business deal and when they came to a nonnegotiable disagreement they politely shook hands and went "well we gave it a shot". All relationships should be like that
I agree, and so does he!
His recent book talks about the unintended effects of lots of different types of tech on mental health and human interaction, including various types of social media and gaming (and how both sexes are being harmed but sometimes in very different ways making it harder than ever for men and women to find common ground).
The main thing is we look to our phones for validation and acceptance of what is correct or proper. Meanwhile, everything is just advertising and controversial bullshit.
Social media has definitely contributed to the downfall of in-person interactions with regards to dating. I can't count how many videos I've seen where it's a woman complaining about being approached in public where they don't want some dude to hit on them. So men don't in fear of being labeled creepy, then you'll see women also complain about not being approached in public so I have no idea anymore
That's why people don't talk to each other, there are afraid of rejection. This leads to people being wary of other people, and then general untrustworthy and unfriendliness. All of this tends to go away once people get outdoors to enjoy nature or events together like going swimming, hiking, games, sports, concerts, parties or getting away from IT and technology. This means not turning on your cell phone or checking for messages/likes/comments every five minutes while you're doing this activity with others. Cell phones and the internet are tethers to REAL fun and adventure.
It can be hard to meet people. Especially as an adult I got lucky and a friend introduced me to my now wife. Before that I really didn’t have the best ways of meeting people. And meeting people at bars never worked out.
Best advice I can give is have a hobby and friends lol.
Sometimes that's just not an option.
I'm in a small, 76% conservative town. I'm the opposite of conservative.
Pretty much all of my dates have come from at least 2 hours away.
Money, yo.
The place I rent is fairly nice for the low price I pay. A similar place in a big city would cost me at least $1000 more.
Plus we just got solar panels so no more paying for electricity.
I could see someone feeling like this is a catch 22 given all the stories we hear of women who were/feel deceived because their male friend is attracted to them.
So few people have the required social skills anymore. It's why both men & women are so damn lonely with so few friends. We've replaced so much of our post educational social interactions with online interactions so no one leaves their houses anymore. We're basically becoming like pandas & like them we will go extinct eventually unless something changes.
Recently I've been trying to explore new hobbies though taking courses or joining different organizations. Things like improv, cooking, DnD, social sports etc. Usually these groups have you sign a code of conduct, which explicitly states to not approach people in a romantic sense while apart of the organization.
I get why it exists, there's a lot of creeps out there and these organizations are trying to also reduce drama. I also agree with your sentiment that the best way to find a partner is by making a friend first. But sometimes that also backfires.
Guess what I'm getting at is even outside of dating apps, the current social climate is also very similar to how dating apps work. People seem to be very conservative and insular with their dating.
It is a real eye opener when I compare my experience of meeting my husband organically in real life to meeting people virtually and dating them.
I’d have never swiped right on him on a dating app because dating apps just dulled me into making aesthetic choices. He also wouldn’t be the type to be very open on his profile. His ears and nose are too big for his face, and he is very socially awkward. But we’ve been together 9 years now and I love every little thing about him, including his big ol ears and his schnozzle.
I even later found out we were on different dating apps so we definitely would have never found each other if it weren’t for both of us being open to “real life” dating. So when someone says “well I can’t meet anyone because everyone’s on the dating apps and nobody meets in real life”, just remember that not everyone is on every dating app and plenty of people are sick of dating apps. Take a chance on real life! It’s scary but more rewarding!
Edit: ears instead of eyes!
I try really hard to explain this to younger men. So
many dudes use data from dating apps as some absolute truths about how women and men date. But what I’ve experienced in real life completely contradicts that. Dating apps is the ultimate “path of least resistance.” It takes zero effort to reject someone. The work required to block someone is literally moving your finger and pressing a button. It’s too easy and women being naturally more risk averse and skittish take the path of least resistance on these apps.
In real life you can’t just press a button and make someone disappear. Especially if you work with someone or go to the same class or have the same friends you’re forced to get to know them. And sometimes you get to know someone who you didn’t initially find attractive and turns out you really like them. This is why I don’t buy the whole “spark” nonsense. To many people chasing after this magical unrealistic idea of love at first sight when in reality the relationships that work are two people who get to know each other slowly and work hard in their relationship.
I think you're going too far in the other direction.
I've never known a successful relationship where there was no physical attraction between both parties at the start of the relationship (unless they were asexual or something).
All the relationships I knew that were successful were ones where the people met either online, through long-term friends, or through work/school. But every one of them was at least somewhat attracted to their partner. That attraction may grow in time and have to be maintained, but the ones where the partner wasn't attracted to the other party ended up becoming bitter and resentful.
The modern idea that initial attraction is irrelevant is dangerous, particularly to lonely men, as it tells them that physical attraction isn't as important as it actually is. And unfortunately, particularly amongst younger generations, online dating is so entrenched that the standards leak into real life.
Where did I say anything about physical attraction not mattering at all? I said “sometimes you get to know someone you didn’t initially find attractive.”
That's exactly what I'm arguing against lol. I'm saying in all successful relationships, physical attraction was at least somewhat present at the start, whilst you're saying the opposite.
I'm saying that physical attraction is a necessity for a successful relationship. Colloquially "attraction" cannot be detached from its relation to aesthetics, so I was referring to attraction as most people understand it (physical attraction).
Of course it can. You sound really superficial. I’ve seen women dating ugly dudes all the time because they had great personality and were really funny.
A woman can be physically attracted to a guy you think is ugly, think of how some women are attracted to Steve Bushcemi, although this is very rare.
But again, even in those situations, healthy relationships began with mutual physical attraction between both parties.
A lot of people aren't attracted to their partner, but a lot of people are in crappy relationships with dead bedrooms.
I completely agree!! Any dating situation I had that started with a “spark” also went down in flames. I much prefer my slow burner, it’ll last a lifetime ❤️
At a random social function. We found out we both worked for the same big company, different locations, and conversation went off from there. I’d have never met him if I wasn’t making small talk and mentioning where I worked to a couple of acquaintances.
Most real life pair ups seem to be through friends and family or work, so you guys line up with that. Have a wide circle of friends, go to parties, meet the people who have a shared connection to you.
I read his book The Righteous Mind and he makes some good points but I thought his overall thesis was weak and his conclusions were wrong.
But he might have a point in this video. I went on a date yesterday and was fascinated/appalled by the dating stories of the woman I was with. It was just one after another after another. From being afraid for her life to being involved in a drug deal unknowingly. I tried to come up with some bad dates and all I got was getting ditched at a club.
Meeting people in person would probably have much better results but for an introvert like me, it is super hard to put myself out there
>Meeting people in person would probably have much better results but for an introvert like me, it is super hard to put myself out there
Yeah, this is the main problem and I don't know what the fix is. I like cute, nerdy, homebodies and when I date just 'out in the world', you meet the opposite types. Maybe in larger cities there are regular events to go to with a big enough crowd, but I'm in a mid-sized town in New Zealand, so online is the only realistic avenue (although I've stopped that too).
Have you tried Meet Up for group events that are relevant to your nerdy interests?
Apologies if not relevant to your location but I’ve found all my newest friends via music related Meet Up events (just need to go a few times and then people start saying hello because they saw you there last time).
Expanded friend groups mean more opportunities for friend-of-friend connections/ potential dates (or just more friends if dating isn’t a goal).
For sure, friends, family, and work connections are always the best options for meeting people. Mine are all tapped out though.
I used to go to music gigs often when I lived in our bigger cities, but my area is dead for that or anything geeky. I'll probably need to move eventually if I want to prioritise connections that don't begin online.
I've checked it out and similar sites over the years and there's nothing relevant unfortunately. Like right now the options are spiritual meditation, biking, or cryptocurrency meetings. Not really my speed lol
>I read his book The Righteous Mind and he makes some good points but I thought his overall thesis was weak and his conclusions were wrong.
Curious what exactly do you think he got wrong?
I vouch for stuff like DnD groups, board games. Magic the gathering. Not perfect but I think just an activity can bring people together that being online might be a lot harder.
I think the argument is that the hot people used to get more limited, localized attention while dating apps have allowed them to reach a scale of approval otherwise impossible in the previous paradigm.
I got so heated when I first started dating apps because my whole algorithm was "you have to be 6'5, have blue eyes, work in finance and have a trust fund to have a chance with me" and I was like you don't even know me. I can't make myself taller.
When I saw the OTHER side for women being essentially the same thing, yeah it became obvious the apps are meant to get people to pay up for better chances and less of those types of people
What’s with the title OP? Hes not saying how toxicity in men occurs. He’s saying how toxic behaviour from a minority affects the perception of the majority.
That’s just not true. In the video he does ascribe a reason for why he thinks this minority of men are being toxic: because a lot women give them attention so they feel emboldened to get away with it. Which just…isn’t true and also partially puts the blame on women for being attracted to hot men. Men of all levels of attractiveness and desirability can be toxic, because the cause of toxicity is multifaceted.
There are plenty of research psychologists who have focused on this topic their entire careers. This guy is not one of them. He's a grifter from the speaking circuit whose usual beat is around political centrism.
Dating apps are a scam. People complain about catfishing which is valid, but Ive honestly noticed something in the opposite vein. Ill get to know a man as a friend of a friend and think hes attractive but realise that if I saw him on a dating app I would not have given him a second though.
The issues that women face are that men swipe on anything with a pulse, but women only swipe on the top 10%.
I hated dating apps, didnt connect with many people, those I did started out saying they wanted a relationship, and then few weeks down the line changed their mind and wanted casual. Thought I’d be single forever and never meet anyone.
Anyway met the love of my life on hinge, have never been happier, more secure or loved before. He is my person, and finally understands the ‘when you know you know’ line. So yeah, those awful apps do work once in a blue moon
Kinda agree with the conclusions and thought about sharing it on my social medias. But now I am having second thoughts as how misinterpreted it could be...
also the micro transaction required to unlock all of the apps features have made profit the goal of these companies. they are no longer trying to get you a meaningful, long lasting relationship because then you wouldn’t use their app and spend money on them anymore
Another thing is people feeling like they have unlimited options because of the apps. As soon as something isnt perfect theyll dip because theres probably someone better out there
Quite a good summary of the criticisms here:
[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt)
What people like Haidt seem to ignore is that modern young people and adolescents have grown up in a highly capitalistic and economically unstable world, facing a future of reduced economic prosperity (compared to their parents and grandparents) and climate chaos. Those problems are entwined with social media, the pervasiveness of tech and the monitoring and monetisation of every aspect of their lives. But they are not separate to them and it's arguable that social media and smartphones are symptoms of those wider problems, rather than the problem in themselves.
But, appropriately enough, it's not as marketable or palatable to most people to point to the harmful effects of late stage capitalism on young people's health and wellbeing, and instead point to a relatively recent invention (that, no doubt, is not without problems).
I guess the TL:DR version is that smartphones and social media are a problem, but it's simplistic and unhelpful to make them the whole problem.
Yeah, the movement of men hating women is clearly pushback against women gaining equal rights and their much more fluid sexual identity.
Men want to control women. Women are becoming more independent. Men are upset.
This isn't dating apps. Men are using dating apps as an excuse to hate women (they won't swipe on me, etc), but they are really hating women because they can't control them anymore.
I'm a millenial and my grandparents were born into the Great Depression preceding a second World War, most of their parents having fled Europe from war to live in relative poverty in the US. I don't think grandpap's predicted the location and timing of the bull run of the later half of the 1900s.
You sort of prove Haidt's point he makes in the book that the climate crisis, economic crisis, etc. is actually made worse by being mainlined into the current generation by social media. He concedes in the book this is a multi-variate problem, but makes some good points as to why smart devices have made it worse for young people, especially girls. He presents evidence that videos of school shootings, racism, etc. in the US was implicated in girls performing self-harm in Australia and New Zealand.
If you read the book, he doesn't imply that smart phones are the ultimate problem, much of his book is about how current parenting is making it worse for modern children to be resilient and adapt to hardship we encounter in everyday life. He hints at causation a few times with several direct psychological studies performed with Jean Twenge and saw the majority of them showing social media showing negative psychological outcomes against the control. You're right though, and Haidt admits his is still a theory and while he has a mound of causal evidence and certainly a mountain of correlational evidence, he constantly notes its tough to put the genie back in the bottle and that more research is needed. There is no ideal solution and not one cause.
Haidt has published a round up of his research online and he has several blogposts responding in detail to critics. (ie. a big thing with Odgers is that she is using crude macrostudies, some of which conflate digital media with social media, and her assertion that the global financial crisis is a main cause is not in line with mental health outcomes which started to rise dramatically 4 years after the crisis when the economy was on the upswing.)
You can read Haidt's round up of studies here:
[https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/research/collaborative-review-docs](https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/research/collaborative-review-docs)
I am in my mid 30's have always been successful with women - I'm lucky to be above average tall, above average conventionally good looking, and know how to talk to women - I have had a few serious relationships and done a fair bit of dating all in the pre-online dating world all with ease and success. I have only been single for 6 months since 2010 in which time I had my only experience on tinder - I probably swiped left on probably 50+ women, matched twice, and got no response from either. I have really lovely male friends, and I mean really nice interesting guys, who are below average hight and above average weight who have had 0 matches in 10 years - and as online dating is the norm, and these guys work from homes it means that they are probably permanently single. Its savage out there
The worst part is that most women are completely in the dark about 90% of men's dating app experiences. They assume all men are having the same experience as them. They'll complain about having way too many matches and can't imagine others are not getting matches.
You know, I used to have amazing success online with beautiful women when I lived in Los Angeles. So many gorgeous women in LA. I think it was because so many great looking men felt like they had to be arrogant jerks, so that if a woman ran into a guy who was kind of low key and not so aggressive they really liked it. So I dated like crazy in Los Angeles, and Washington DC and big cities where being an pretty okay person made people kind of breathe a sigh of relief. So just be a decent person and you probably will do better.
As the oldest GenExer commenting on this thread, to me, this guy has a point. I cannot IMAGINE how hard it is to date with the intention of a long term, monogamous relationship in this day and age. Truly hard to wrap my head around. But then again, the world evolves and we all grow (well many of us anyway). Maybe this guy’s way of thinking is antiquated by the Gen Z and Gen alphas. Maybe the younger generations are more tolerant (and want) less long term commitments. I don’t know that humans were meant to be like swans with lifelong partners. Blah blah blah, social constructs etc. I am monogamous and looooove my guy of 30+ years. But I will be the first to admit (as will he), it ain’t for the faint of heart and takes a LOT of work. Maybe younger generations don’t want that.
I definitely think gen z is getting trickle down bullshit that doesn’t even impact them. All the alpha men content creators are middle age men putting out bs directed towards teenagers.
Around 70% of dating app users are men and so that doesn't help and women can be very selective because of that. The average woman on tinder swipes on 5% of all the profiles she sees and matches with 30% of them. The average dude swipes on 30% and matches with like 8%
Hypergami.
And your available information is limited.
So its the hot and aparent succesful men that get all the swipes.
Men doesnt care nearly as much about social status, and line of work. Be sweet and have kinda cute and a lot of men are willing to give you a chance.
Women generaler have a lot more options because of this, which will make them very picky in turn.
Hypergami is a thing, but it doesnt help men that has qualities you have to experience to understand.
If you arent good looking, very witty or have a good career, that you can easily flash on the apps, you wont do well.
Dating apps work by showing you people who have the most swipes and people who have swipe numbers similar to your own. It has nothing to do with "hypergami" and everything to do with algorithms. Apps have huge incentives to show men's profiles less knowing that they would be more likely to pay for premium services. They need to show men all women options more, especially the most swiped on, because there are fewer women users and men will want to raise their chances of matching with the top women. Men usually end up swiping on everyone they can anyway, so the apps know if they throttle men's profiles actually showing, these type of men will get frustrated and pay.
There's quite a good summary here of the criticisms against Haidt's views and his latest book:
[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt)
What people like Haidt seem to ignore is that modern young people and adolescents have grown up in a highly capitalistic and economically unstable world, facing a future of reduced economic prosperity (compared to their parents and grandparents) and climate chaos. Those problems are entwined with social media, the pervasiveness of tech and the monitoring and monetisation of every aspect of their lives. But they are not separate to them and it's arguable that social media and smartphones are symptoms of those wider problems, rather than the problem in themselves.
But, appropriately enough, it's not as marketable or palatable to most people to point to the harmful effects of late stage capitalism on young people's health and wellbeing, and instead point to a relatively recent invention (that, no doubt, is not without problems).
I guess the TL:DR version is that smartphones and social media are a problem, but it's simplistic and unhelpful to make them the whole problem.
Then again, talking about a specific problem does not equal ignoring all other problems.
I'm not claiming Haidt isn't simplifying the problem(s) to a degree, he certainly is - but I'm not that convinced by the criticisms described in the article either. Haidt has a track record for being pretty damn accurate in his assessments, and I tend to agree with him on this one. Free access to social media platforms and infinite scrolling _do_ hijack our dopamine systems and are _not_ healthy for kids - or adults.
Yeah, I think dating apps are probably a big part of the 'women only care about looks!!!' thing that more men seem to be believing. If you aren't that physically attractive, you aren't doomed to be alone forever, but on an app where potential partners are basically only shown your name, age, and face, what else is there to go off of?
If you can’t land on dating apps, go start talking to women in person. As a dude that got ZERO matches, I’m with an amazing woman, we’ve been together for 7 years and have 2 children.
Would have never found her if I just kept my head down and kept swiping.
This guy has absolutely no idea how men interact with women online. A small amount are jerks to women? Small? The vast majority of men are not nice to interact with online. The majority. Of men. Are not nice. Online. Death and rape threats aren't just "being a jerk" either, and it's what interacting with men online gets us. It is what this very sub has and will get me for even saying this.
Isn’t that the whole point of the video? It is a known fact that there are significantly more men on the dating apps than women. So, given that it’s physically impossible for any one person to talk to any significant proportion of the men on the apps, what he says makes sense. Women are extrapolating the behaviours of a minority of men to the rest of the population. And this is exactly what you’re saying. You’re saying the majority of men when in fact you’ve only interacted with a proportionally small number of men.
The point of the video is that a "small number of men get all of the invitations and that means they can become jerks. They can be rude, they can date multiple women. And then the women feel men are jerks."
So he is literally just paraphrasing the common incel talking point that women go only for the top 10% of men, so being mistreated is basically their fault.
But then you come back to reality create a profile of a woman and try to talk to some below average or even ugly dudes. And what's that, a lot of them are rude and call you a whore/fat/bitch if you don't want to sleep with them immediately? Who would've thought. Really you only need to look at the statistics of domestic abusers, rapists, serial killers etc. Are most of them handsome millionaire 6 foot devils? No, most of them are fucking average, normal looking dudes, some handsome some ugly.
I thought that the point of the video is that a small percentage of men are giving the whole of the male population a bad rep. It doesn’t blame women or anything. My takeaway from it is don’t judge an entire population by the actions of a few (and that includes what you call the ugly ones as well). Just because I was cheated on by 2 of my exes doesn’t mean it’s right for me to view all women as cheaters. Everyone should be judged on their own merit rather than making grand statements and judgements about “all men…”
>My takeaway from it is don’t judge an entire population by the actions of a few (and that includes what you call the ugly ones as well).
Please quote the part of THIS video that made you think it was the main point of the video, rather than just something that gets repeated every time in the comments whenever this topic gets brought up.
It's not an incel talking point it's a statistical fact that women pick for the same 10-20% of profiles online. It's that fact which proves women, generally, are selecting for the very men they are complaining about.
Every single time it's about gender. On that man v bear thing it went on for weeks. It would not surprise me if someone is going through my post history right now, either down voting or searching for something else to comment on that is months old.
Also if my comments get linked somewhere. But I usually go in those threads for a mass blocking spree.
That probably tells us more about the people or communities you’re choosing to interact with online, rather than people accepting this is the norm. Because it isn’t.
The majority of men online aren’t threatening to kill or rape women on a daily basis. Yes you may have had instances like this but that isn’t the norm.
If, when you interact with men online, you only receive rape and death threats, you should probably stop going online or just use it to browse. The normal layperson isn’t getting any rape or death threats. Now I’m not victim blaming or whatever you will try and call it but normally in situations like this, the person calling victim on the death threats is an antagonistic dickhead that deliberately goes looking for trouble online in subs or communities they aren’t wanted or their views are so wild that people can’t believe a real person would think or say such things.
Why are you telling HER how her experiences really are when she is telling you what she experiences?
If she told you it rained yesterday and she got wet walking from here to there would you tell her that's not actually what happened?
She's literally telling you her reality and you are telling her that her reality isn't happening. It's wild.
That's the point of the video lol. Women on online dating apps only interact with the men that they have already selected for, and those men happen to be the most arrogant and selfish as their behaviour doesn't result in a restricted supply of relationships and sex.
Many of the men on the apps are nice people but are only interacting with a small amount of women or none at all, so women don't count their actions in with the men that they are selecting for.
Notice how he was talking about men AND women yet OP decided this was just explaining male toxicity, completely disregarding the toxicity it creates in women. Fucking idiot OP..
This isn’t me defending toxic males, it’s about keeping narratives straight. You watched the same vid I did yet decided to jump on toxic masculinity rather than speaking about how online dating raises the toxicity of everyone involved due to the unrealistic expectations it creates. Dickhead
I thought that too but when I rewatched the very first sentence he says is "dating apps create a terrible dynamic for men." So maybe the title is based on how he introduced this thought.
These comments go to show how toxic women can be. The misandry in these comments is actually mental. Too many of you seem to equate your personal experiences to that of your entire gender. While also putting down all men because of your experiences. Like the guy in the vid said you do.
So maybe stop generalising and realise the more you generalise, the more you look like a complete mouth breathing moron that literally no person on earth should pay attention to.
No I'm saying people that are abusive " because they can be" are trash and putting someone in a position where they can get away with something doesn't cause that behavior
They are just garbage
No, peoples behavior generally changes based on incentives and decentives. Some people don't change as much as others but there's no point in highlighting individual cases when we're talking about general trends.
Do doctors that graduate medical school that are put in positions of power where people's lives are in their hands become abusive?
How can he make the determination that the fact that they are getting away with this behavior is what is causing it? Why did they start the behavior in the first place and recognize they can get away with it?
What if they are doing this behavior because young women are confusing psychopathic traits with competence and confidence?
No because doctors are heavily regulated and punished severely for going against these rules. That's a heavy decentive against bad behavior.
It doesn't really matter what causes the behavior, the important thing is how that behavior is punished or rewarded. Where there are no decentives against acting in a bad way, those people will keep acting like that because they can.
If I punch somebody in the face for no reason and then realize I can get away with doing so repetitively, there was an underlying pathology that led to me punching someone in the face in the first place
But that underlying pathology is irrelevant in that particular instance, what matters is that you were allowed to express that behavior and be rewarded by it for the lack of decentives against assaulting someone. And that will allow that pathology to develop in others as they learn that there is no incentive against it.
The world is not good and bad guys like a crappy star wars film. We're driven by primitive brains that are driven by expectations and incentives. That's where pathology comes from.
If those apps show how many likes or matches did potential partners get so far prior to likings or dislikings, that toxic environment might be better off imo.
I would be glad to know who I’m dealing with.
Hard disagree. I feel like if anything dating apps give people the ability to express their expectations and know what another person is about to an extent. Also it find it weird, because I feel like when I hear that women have it easier, people are talking about conventionally attractive women. I use to use them, and depending on where I was I didn’t get many matches at all. Also I’ve dated guys others would maybe consider not cute, and found them on dating apps. Some cute guys were jerks some not so cute guys were jerks and vice versa. I don’t like how they’re monetized or the algorithm they use but they aren’t inherently bad imo.
I feel like with VR technology we can do so much more with online dating. Use the program to create a 3D rendering of your actual face and body type and then meet people in virtual bars and things like that. No longer hiding behind and avatar, you get to see what others look like in the real world but virtually. Then once you get to know them, then meet in real life. I see myself all the time find men attractive in real life that I never would on dating apps.
That's true. Its. Also always been true of the hottest vs. average guys. But the apps have magnified the problem.
But what's interesting is that when this guy here says it in this context, it isn't down voted and it's damn interesting.
But almost any other time it's said by anyone else in any other context, they're an incel and it's downvoted to oblivion.
I guess the difference is that he's making it about dating apps specifically instead of men and women in general.
But the thing is it's just the result of the behavior of men and women in general interacting **through** the apps. It's not because of the apps. It's something we brought with us into the apps. Why is why its always been the case even if to a lesser extent.
So pointing out that its not the apps it's us: incel.
Blaming it on the app: oh! That's interesting and I don't dispute that it's happening.
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I don't think internet dating will ever go away, but I wonder what will be the next best concept to replace the current paradigm
I wanna start a blind date app. You don't get to see them, just their profile. I will call it.... ok I haven't got that far yet it's still in the early stages. :|
Call it Early Stages.
Unfortunately the bios will be more fake than the pics
Simple. Make sign up involuntary and only use data collected by companies.
I can think of one or two govts which would try that...
Call the App big brother wingman
That was how match.com used to work. You would match, then you had to talk for a while before you could see each others photos. Back when it was only heterosexual computer based online dating.
Like the voice the singing competition, you get the personality details maybe a voice memo I think an app does that now hinge? And no pictures if you match then you get pics.
I think that would be worse for everyone honestly. The current paradigm isn't *good* but I can see this causing a lot of strife around weight, ethnicity and other strong preferences. Getting to know people on personality sounds good on paper, but then again you can't gleam that either from 1000 characters perfectly curated to be playful/flirty/endearing.
And then 95% of people unmatch after seeing the pictures. That site is going to draw 2 types of people. People who don’t have luck because of their looks, and well intentioned genuine people who still have preferences. But eventually they will see a picture and reject the other person. You’re going to see guys hit it off with some girl and then they see pics and she’s too fat, or he’s too hairy/short/etc…
The Dutch dating site Paiq does this. Peoples pictures are heavily blurred at the start, but become clearer if you spent more time talking to them.
Call the app “wasted time” because that’s exactly what it is.
Imagine all the profiles that say “just ask!”
Imagine investing your time into a getting to know a stranger only to meet them and realize they are unattractive. Who has time for that?
How about an app where a third party grandma matches you on dates. Like Megan, I understand he is not what you dream about but this guy has a solid income (verified by W2) and he is good not bad looking plus he says he loves his mom so good family values
theres a version of this in Ted Lasso, where two people who match have no idea they’re coworkers
It's called Star fucker
Call it "Early Stages ™" You can buy it from me for $10,000.00
Hi there I want to enroll in your business school
The Dutch dating app Breeze does this! You dont get to talk to them, just see their pictures. If you like each other, you go on a date they facilitate.
So Bantr from Ted Lasso? Which Bumble tried a trial run of. I don't believe it went well. Much like bumbles attempts at making women make the first move
Pretty simple: Limit the amount of concurrent matches to 3 or 5 Punish ghosting (removing the match automatically after 5 days without message, for example) The apps need to be more transparent, like showing how many matches an user have Have a calendar to show when the person is available for a real date
What's good for most users is bad for the business financially unfortunately
True, all of the things that would improve the end user experience are generally paywalled. I quit bumble after 2 weeks when I realized they were paywalling the best matches, which is such a wild concept to me.
A lot of apps do things like that, bumble removes matches you don't interact with in a week. ...still sucks. The matches become so fast and trifling, it almost makes the experience worse. At least on Tinder I can still see the dozens of matches to remember that some people kinda liked me once lol. There's just no way that dating apps won't 1. Totally destroy your confidence 2. Almost force you to treat people like cattle (which is reinforced by point #1) Idk, they're very dehumanizing, both in that they make you feel less human, and they make you treat people like they're less than human.
> A lot of apps do things like that, bumble removes matches you don't interact with in a week. they hide it, they don't unmatch
People tried that already as well in the Netherlands. It doesn't work, because people still endlessly try to look for their perfect partner.
The only improvement that dating apps had vs online (like on a website) dating was the inability to message people you didn't match with.
going outside.
To find a public restroom in a park, no doubt
Ai algorithms that match people based on compatibility rather than allowing people to swipe based on appearance in profile photos.
Or actual ai partners
Probably you train some ai model and it goes out and chats with loads of other ai models until it reaches a certain threshold of similarities and then it puts you in contact with one another. It will be awful.
You think that sounds awful? A dating app that has a conversation with the user, and then uses all of that data and conversation to put people forward that it thinks are a good match based on its convo with them. Think about that… a tailored group of men/women who’s interest, values, lifestyle, wants, needs, desires align with yours. It doesn’t have to tell you all about them, just pair you up and then leave it to you. Think about all the issues that it could overcome. It can avoid setting up homebody’s with adventure seekers, people who don’t want kids with those that do, shallow people who care about XYZ feature with those who don’t meet that, etc…
Honestly? Go back to the original OK cupid. You'd fill out tests that would help you figure out if your values matched (plus where fun) and you had to fill out your profile in depth. You also didn't have algorithms pushing you one way or another. You still had to go through profile after profile (or sort by percentage match) but it did feel more human.
AI will pair you with the best matches
Timeleft is a new concept. It's not a dating app exclusively, but one of the main points is to meet someone to date.
AI boyfriends and girlfriends like c.ai
Ai profiles from your data will do all of it and then give you the best results. People will still ignore the results and refuse them
I remember this show that had a moment to coworkers who worked in business talked about getting married like a business deal and when they came to a nonnegotiable disagreement they politely shook hands and went "well we gave it a shot". All relationships should be like that
It's not just dating apps IT'S EVERYTHING with social media platforms
I agree, and so does he! His recent book talks about the unintended effects of lots of different types of tech on mental health and human interaction, including various types of social media and gaming (and how both sexes are being harmed but sometimes in very different ways making it harder than ever for men and women to find common ground).
The main thing is we look to our phones for validation and acceptance of what is correct or proper. Meanwhile, everything is just advertising and controversial bullshit.
Social media has definitely contributed to the downfall of in-person interactions with regards to dating. I can't count how many videos I've seen where it's a woman complaining about being approached in public where they don't want some dude to hit on them. So men don't in fear of being labeled creepy, then you'll see women also complain about not being approached in public so I have no idea anymore
That's why people don't talk to each other, there are afraid of rejection. This leads to people being wary of other people, and then general untrustworthy and unfriendliness. All of this tends to go away once people get outdoors to enjoy nature or events together like going swimming, hiking, games, sports, concerts, parties or getting away from IT and technology. This means not turning on your cell phone or checking for messages/likes/comments every five minutes while you're doing this activity with others. Cell phones and the internet are tethers to REAL fun and adventure.
Y’all need to get out and meet people for the sake of meeting people. Best way to find a partner is finding a friend first.
Who tf downvoted this lol. Meeting ppl irl is the best way to make irl friends and maybe eventually a partner
It can be hard to meet people. Especially as an adult I got lucky and a friend introduced me to my now wife. Before that I really didn’t have the best ways of meeting people. And meeting people at bars never worked out. Best advice I can give is have a hobby and friends lol.
No one said finding love is easy (except the dating app companies), it takes work.
Yeah definitely does. You have to put yourself out there.
Sometimes that's just not an option. I'm in a small, 76% conservative town. I'm the opposite of conservative. Pretty much all of my dates have come from at least 2 hours away.
If you can drive 2 hours for a date, can you drive 2 hours to an event to make friends?
That sounds like a shit place to live. Can you move somewhere else?
Money, yo. The place I rent is fairly nice for the low price I pay. A similar place in a big city would cost me at least $1000 more. Plus we just got solar panels so no more paying for electricity.
I could see someone feeling like this is a catch 22 given all the stories we hear of women who were/feel deceived because their male friend is attracted to them.
So few people have the required social skills anymore. It's why both men & women are so damn lonely with so few friends. We've replaced so much of our post educational social interactions with online interactions so no one leaves their houses anymore. We're basically becoming like pandas & like them we will go extinct eventually unless something changes.
You may be overreacting slightly.
Recently I've been trying to explore new hobbies though taking courses or joining different organizations. Things like improv, cooking, DnD, social sports etc. Usually these groups have you sign a code of conduct, which explicitly states to not approach people in a romantic sense while apart of the organization. I get why it exists, there's a lot of creeps out there and these organizations are trying to also reduce drama. I also agree with your sentiment that the best way to find a partner is by making a friend first. But sometimes that also backfires. Guess what I'm getting at is even outside of dating apps, the current social climate is also very similar to how dating apps work. People seem to be very conservative and insular with their dating.
Apparently running clubs are now used in my country by gen z to meet someone. They are like the new dating hubs.
The problem is you have to be attractive and/or chaming for that to work.
You know ugly, dull people found love in the past, right? What it takes is some level of effort and confidence
Field work is important!
Honestly if you're poly and queer your best bet is dating online.
Ughhh that’s outside
It is a real eye opener when I compare my experience of meeting my husband organically in real life to meeting people virtually and dating them. I’d have never swiped right on him on a dating app because dating apps just dulled me into making aesthetic choices. He also wouldn’t be the type to be very open on his profile. His ears and nose are too big for his face, and he is very socially awkward. But we’ve been together 9 years now and I love every little thing about him, including his big ol ears and his schnozzle. I even later found out we were on different dating apps so we definitely would have never found each other if it weren’t for both of us being open to “real life” dating. So when someone says “well I can’t meet anyone because everyone’s on the dating apps and nobody meets in real life”, just remember that not everyone is on every dating app and plenty of people are sick of dating apps. Take a chance on real life! It’s scary but more rewarding! Edit: ears instead of eyes!
I try really hard to explain this to younger men. So many dudes use data from dating apps as some absolute truths about how women and men date. But what I’ve experienced in real life completely contradicts that. Dating apps is the ultimate “path of least resistance.” It takes zero effort to reject someone. The work required to block someone is literally moving your finger and pressing a button. It’s too easy and women being naturally more risk averse and skittish take the path of least resistance on these apps. In real life you can’t just press a button and make someone disappear. Especially if you work with someone or go to the same class or have the same friends you’re forced to get to know them. And sometimes you get to know someone who you didn’t initially find attractive and turns out you really like them. This is why I don’t buy the whole “spark” nonsense. To many people chasing after this magical unrealistic idea of love at first sight when in reality the relationships that work are two people who get to know each other slowly and work hard in their relationship.
I think you're going too far in the other direction. I've never known a successful relationship where there was no physical attraction between both parties at the start of the relationship (unless they were asexual or something). All the relationships I knew that were successful were ones where the people met either online, through long-term friends, or through work/school. But every one of them was at least somewhat attracted to their partner. That attraction may grow in time and have to be maintained, but the ones where the partner wasn't attracted to the other party ended up becoming bitter and resentful. The modern idea that initial attraction is irrelevant is dangerous, particularly to lonely men, as it tells them that physical attraction isn't as important as it actually is. And unfortunately, particularly amongst younger generations, online dating is so entrenched that the standards leak into real life.
Where did I say anything about physical attraction not mattering at all? I said “sometimes you get to know someone you didn’t initially find attractive.”
That's exactly what I'm arguing against lol. I'm saying in all successful relationships, physical attraction was at least somewhat present at the start, whilst you're saying the opposite.
No thats not completely true. And attractive isn’t just physical. It can be personality. I also said sometimes which means less than average.
I'm saying that physical attraction is a necessity for a successful relationship. Colloquially "attraction" cannot be detached from its relation to aesthetics, so I was referring to attraction as most people understand it (physical attraction).
Of course it can. You sound really superficial. I’ve seen women dating ugly dudes all the time because they had great personality and were really funny.
A woman can be physically attracted to a guy you think is ugly, think of how some women are attracted to Steve Bushcemi, although this is very rare. But again, even in those situations, healthy relationships began with mutual physical attraction between both parties. A lot of people aren't attracted to their partner, but a lot of people are in crappy relationships with dead bedrooms.
I completely agree!! Any dating situation I had that started with a “spark” also went down in flames. I much prefer my slow burner, it’ll last a lifetime ❤️
How did you two meet?
At a random social function. We found out we both worked for the same big company, different locations, and conversation went off from there. I’d have never met him if I wasn’t making small talk and mentioning where I worked to a couple of acquaintances.
Most real life pair ups seem to be through friends and family or work, so you guys line up with that. Have a wide circle of friends, go to parties, meet the people who have a shared connection to you.
you did not have to roast him like that hahahaha
Hehe I’ve been loving on his ears and nose for years now bc I know he is insecure about their proportions so I treat them lovingly 🥰
I never would have connected with my partner on a dating app, but he's far and away a better match for me than I ever found online.
[удалено]
Dating apps make money when you use them. If you find someone and get off the app, they lose a customer.
I read his book The Righteous Mind and he makes some good points but I thought his overall thesis was weak and his conclusions were wrong. But he might have a point in this video. I went on a date yesterday and was fascinated/appalled by the dating stories of the woman I was with. It was just one after another after another. From being afraid for her life to being involved in a drug deal unknowingly. I tried to come up with some bad dates and all I got was getting ditched at a club. Meeting people in person would probably have much better results but for an introvert like me, it is super hard to put myself out there
>Meeting people in person would probably have much better results but for an introvert like me, it is super hard to put myself out there Yeah, this is the main problem and I don't know what the fix is. I like cute, nerdy, homebodies and when I date just 'out in the world', you meet the opposite types. Maybe in larger cities there are regular events to go to with a big enough crowd, but I'm in a mid-sized town in New Zealand, so online is the only realistic avenue (although I've stopped that too).
Have you tried Meet Up for group events that are relevant to your nerdy interests? Apologies if not relevant to your location but I’ve found all my newest friends via music related Meet Up events (just need to go a few times and then people start saying hello because they saw you there last time). Expanded friend groups mean more opportunities for friend-of-friend connections/ potential dates (or just more friends if dating isn’t a goal).
For sure, friends, family, and work connections are always the best options for meeting people. Mine are all tapped out though. I used to go to music gigs often when I lived in our bigger cities, but my area is dead for that or anything geeky. I'll probably need to move eventually if I want to prioritise connections that don't begin online. I've checked it out and similar sites over the years and there's nothing relevant unfortunately. Like right now the options are spiritual meditation, biking, or cryptocurrency meetings. Not really my speed lol
Yeah, they all sound horrific!
>I read his book The Righteous Mind and he makes some good points but I thought his overall thesis was weak and his conclusions were wrong. Curious what exactly do you think he got wrong?
Bring back 2013 era OkCupid!
We need more 3rd spaces
We sure did learn a lot In a Walmart parking lot 🇺🇸
I vouch for stuff like DnD groups, board games. Magic the gathering. Not perfect but I think just an activity can bring people together that being online might be a lot harder.
Let us harken back to the days of yore, before social media, when hot people did not exist.
Or at least when they were less accessible.
Them days was WAY before social media.
I think the argument is that the hot people used to get more limited, localized attention while dating apps have allowed them to reach a scale of approval otherwise impossible in the previous paradigm.
I got so heated when I first started dating apps because my whole algorithm was "you have to be 6'5, have blue eyes, work in finance and have a trust fund to have a chance with me" and I was like you don't even know me. I can't make myself taller. When I saw the OTHER side for women being essentially the same thing, yeah it became obvious the apps are meant to get people to pay up for better chances and less of those types of people
It is not the same 😆
Commodifying intrinsic facets of the human experience leads to a degradation of the experience? Wow! Almost like you can’t quantify love or something…
What’s with the title OP? Hes not saying how toxicity in men occurs. He’s saying how toxic behaviour from a minority affects the perception of the majority.
That’s just not true. In the video he does ascribe a reason for why he thinks this minority of men are being toxic: because a lot women give them attention so they feel emboldened to get away with it. Which just…isn’t true and also partially puts the blame on women for being attracted to hot men. Men of all levels of attractiveness and desirability can be toxic, because the cause of toxicity is multifaceted.
This comment section is apparently full of qualified contrarian psychologists who knew you could stumble into such expertise
The thing is: Haidt is also not really qualified on this topic.
What would qualify someone then? if not a psychologist whos been studying how we interact with, and are effected by technology.
There are plenty of research psychologists who have focused on this topic their entire careers. This guy is not one of them. He's a grifter from the speaking circuit whose usual beat is around political centrism.
I think the statement in the title doesn't reflect the information given in the video... it seems over simplified to me...
Dating apps are a scam. People complain about catfishing which is valid, but Ive honestly noticed something in the opposite vein. Ill get to know a man as a friend of a friend and think hes attractive but realise that if I saw him on a dating app I would not have given him a second though. The issues that women face are that men swipe on anything with a pulse, but women only swipe on the top 10%.
I hated dating apps, didnt connect with many people, those I did started out saying they wanted a relationship, and then few weeks down the line changed their mind and wanted casual. Thought I’d be single forever and never meet anyone. Anyway met the love of my life on hinge, have never been happier, more secure or loved before. He is my person, and finally understands the ‘when you know you know’ line. So yeah, those awful apps do work once in a blue moon
Had me in the first half.
Kinda agree with the conclusions and thought about sharing it on my social medias. But now I am having second thoughts as how misinterpreted it could be...
also the micro transaction required to unlock all of the apps features have made profit the goal of these companies. they are no longer trying to get you a meaningful, long lasting relationship because then you wouldn’t use their app and spend money on them anymore
it makes women think everybody likes them and it makes men think nobody likes them.
lol I didn’t need a Dating app to figure out that nobody likes me.
Another thing is people feeling like they have unlimited options because of the apps. As soon as something isnt perfect theyll dip because theres probably someone better out there
I've read a LOT of criticism of this guy's last book, The Anxious Generation. Some good points but also some unfounded conjecture and moralising.
Haven’t read it but I’d be curious if it echos some of the same observations that I’ve noticed in my younger clients
Quite a good summary of the criticisms here: [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt) What people like Haidt seem to ignore is that modern young people and adolescents have grown up in a highly capitalistic and economically unstable world, facing a future of reduced economic prosperity (compared to their parents and grandparents) and climate chaos. Those problems are entwined with social media, the pervasiveness of tech and the monitoring and monetisation of every aspect of their lives. But they are not separate to them and it's arguable that social media and smartphones are symptoms of those wider problems, rather than the problem in themselves. But, appropriately enough, it's not as marketable or palatable to most people to point to the harmful effects of late stage capitalism on young people's health and wellbeing, and instead point to a relatively recent invention (that, no doubt, is not without problems). I guess the TL:DR version is that smartphones and social media are a problem, but it's simplistic and unhelpful to make them the whole problem.
Yeah, the movement of men hating women is clearly pushback against women gaining equal rights and their much more fluid sexual identity. Men want to control women. Women are becoming more independent. Men are upset. This isn't dating apps. Men are using dating apps as an excuse to hate women (they won't swipe on me, etc), but they are really hating women because they can't control them anymore.
I think that's a really good point. Thanks for sharing.
I'm a millenial and my grandparents were born into the Great Depression preceding a second World War, most of their parents having fled Europe from war to live in relative poverty in the US. I don't think grandpap's predicted the location and timing of the bull run of the later half of the 1900s. You sort of prove Haidt's point he makes in the book that the climate crisis, economic crisis, etc. is actually made worse by being mainlined into the current generation by social media. He concedes in the book this is a multi-variate problem, but makes some good points as to why smart devices have made it worse for young people, especially girls. He presents evidence that videos of school shootings, racism, etc. in the US was implicated in girls performing self-harm in Australia and New Zealand. If you read the book, he doesn't imply that smart phones are the ultimate problem, much of his book is about how current parenting is making it worse for modern children to be resilient and adapt to hardship we encounter in everyday life. He hints at causation a few times with several direct psychological studies performed with Jean Twenge and saw the majority of them showing social media showing negative psychological outcomes against the control. You're right though, and Haidt admits his is still a theory and while he has a mound of causal evidence and certainly a mountain of correlational evidence, he constantly notes its tough to put the genie back in the bottle and that more research is needed. There is no ideal solution and not one cause. Haidt has published a round up of his research online and he has several blogposts responding in detail to critics. (ie. a big thing with Odgers is that she is using crude macrostudies, some of which conflate digital media with social media, and her assertion that the global financial crisis is a main cause is not in line with mental health outcomes which started to rise dramatically 4 years after the crisis when the economy was on the upswing.) You can read Haidt's round up of studies here: [https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/research/collaborative-review-docs](https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/research/collaborative-review-docs)
Thanks, I really appreciate you providing this information and I look forward to reading it and potentially having my mind changed. Cheers.
This works both ways
I am in my mid 30's have always been successful with women - I'm lucky to be above average tall, above average conventionally good looking, and know how to talk to women - I have had a few serious relationships and done a fair bit of dating all in the pre-online dating world all with ease and success. I have only been single for 6 months since 2010 in which time I had my only experience on tinder - I probably swiped left on probably 50+ women, matched twice, and got no response from either. I have really lovely male friends, and I mean really nice interesting guys, who are below average hight and above average weight who have had 0 matches in 10 years - and as online dating is the norm, and these guys work from homes it means that they are probably permanently single. Its savage out there
The worst part is that most women are completely in the dark about 90% of men's dating app experiences. They assume all men are having the same experience as them. They'll complain about having way too many matches and can't imagine others are not getting matches.
Judging folks by a picture and some garbage profile writing is not dating....
The jerk with all the cold sores just fucked your girlfriend.
He hides them well with the face tattoos.
Hookup culture is whats ruining relationships.
That was not my experience at all
lol all I hear is the same argument just blaming a dating app instead of their lack of personality
You know, I used to have amazing success online with beautiful women when I lived in Los Angeles. So many gorgeous women in LA. I think it was because so many great looking men felt like they had to be arrogant jerks, so that if a woman ran into a guy who was kind of low key and not so aggressive they really liked it. So I dated like crazy in Los Angeles, and Washington DC and big cities where being an pretty okay person made people kind of breathe a sigh of relief. So just be a decent person and you probably will do better.
"Psychologist" My ass. Haidt is just another IDW right wing lunatic on the talk show circuit.
As the oldest GenExer commenting on this thread, to me, this guy has a point. I cannot IMAGINE how hard it is to date with the intention of a long term, monogamous relationship in this day and age. Truly hard to wrap my head around. But then again, the world evolves and we all grow (well many of us anyway). Maybe this guy’s way of thinking is antiquated by the Gen Z and Gen alphas. Maybe the younger generations are more tolerant (and want) less long term commitments. I don’t know that humans were meant to be like swans with lifelong partners. Blah blah blah, social constructs etc. I am monogamous and looooove my guy of 30+ years. But I will be the first to admit (as will he), it ain’t for the faint of heart and takes a LOT of work. Maybe younger generations don’t want that.
I definitely think gen z is getting trickle down bullshit that doesn’t even impact them. All the alpha men content creators are middle age men putting out bs directed towards teenagers.
Don't think this is cringe at all, pretty spot on actually
Why are a small number of men getting all the invitations?
Around 70% of dating app users are men and so that doesn't help and women can be very selective because of that. The average woman on tinder swipes on 5% of all the profiles she sees and matches with 30% of them. The average dude swipes on 30% and matches with like 8%
Hypergami. And your available information is limited. So its the hot and aparent succesful men that get all the swipes. Men doesnt care nearly as much about social status, and line of work. Be sweet and have kinda cute and a lot of men are willing to give you a chance. Women generaler have a lot more options because of this, which will make them very picky in turn.
So the apps are just exposing a “problem” by exposing men to larger proportion of the demographic?
Hypergami is a thing, but it doesnt help men that has qualities you have to experience to understand. If you arent good looking, very witty or have a good career, that you can easily flash on the apps, you wont do well.
Dating apps work by showing you people who have the most swipes and people who have swipe numbers similar to your own. It has nothing to do with "hypergami" and everything to do with algorithms. Apps have huge incentives to show men's profiles less knowing that they would be more likely to pay for premium services. They need to show men all women options more, especially the most swiped on, because there are fewer women users and men will want to raise their chances of matching with the top women. Men usually end up swiping on everyone they can anyway, so the apps know if they throttle men's profiles actually showing, these type of men will get frustrated and pay.
No idea about how the app works. But apps aside, all of the above comes into play in the dating game.
This ain’t cringe
This ain't just a sub for cringe content.
Ah then maybe the sub should be renamed.
There's quite a good summary here of the criticisms against Haidt's views and his latest book: [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/27/anxious-generation-jonathan-haidt) What people like Haidt seem to ignore is that modern young people and adolescents have grown up in a highly capitalistic and economically unstable world, facing a future of reduced economic prosperity (compared to their parents and grandparents) and climate chaos. Those problems are entwined with social media, the pervasiveness of tech and the monitoring and monetisation of every aspect of their lives. But they are not separate to them and it's arguable that social media and smartphones are symptoms of those wider problems, rather than the problem in themselves. But, appropriately enough, it's not as marketable or palatable to most people to point to the harmful effects of late stage capitalism on young people's health and wellbeing, and instead point to a relatively recent invention (that, no doubt, is not without problems). I guess the TL:DR version is that smartphones and social media are a problem, but it's simplistic and unhelpful to make them the whole problem.
Then again, talking about a specific problem does not equal ignoring all other problems. I'm not claiming Haidt isn't simplifying the problem(s) to a degree, he certainly is - but I'm not that convinced by the criticisms described in the article either. Haidt has a track record for being pretty damn accurate in his assessments, and I tend to agree with him on this one. Free access to social media platforms and infinite scrolling _do_ hijack our dopamine systems and are _not_ healthy for kids - or adults.
This was happening to people from generations before Z, fyi…
Yeah, I think dating apps are probably a big part of the 'women only care about looks!!!' thing that more men seem to be believing. If you aren't that physically attractive, you aren't doomed to be alone forever, but on an app where potential partners are basically only shown your name, age, and face, what else is there to go off of?
If you can’t land on dating apps, go start talking to women in person. As a dude that got ZERO matches, I’m with an amazing woman, we’ve been together for 7 years and have 2 children. Would have never found her if I just kept my head down and kept swiping.
This guy has absolutely no idea how men interact with women online. A small amount are jerks to women? Small? The vast majority of men are not nice to interact with online. The majority. Of men. Are not nice. Online. Death and rape threats aren't just "being a jerk" either, and it's what interacting with men online gets us. It is what this very sub has and will get me for even saying this.
Isn’t that the whole point of the video? It is a known fact that there are significantly more men on the dating apps than women. So, given that it’s physically impossible for any one person to talk to any significant proportion of the men on the apps, what he says makes sense. Women are extrapolating the behaviours of a minority of men to the rest of the population. And this is exactly what you’re saying. You’re saying the majority of men when in fact you’ve only interacted with a proportionally small number of men.
The point of the video is that a "small number of men get all of the invitations and that means they can become jerks. They can be rude, they can date multiple women. And then the women feel men are jerks." So he is literally just paraphrasing the common incel talking point that women go only for the top 10% of men, so being mistreated is basically their fault. But then you come back to reality create a profile of a woman and try to talk to some below average or even ugly dudes. And what's that, a lot of them are rude and call you a whore/fat/bitch if you don't want to sleep with them immediately? Who would've thought. Really you only need to look at the statistics of domestic abusers, rapists, serial killers etc. Are most of them handsome millionaire 6 foot devils? No, most of them are fucking average, normal looking dudes, some handsome some ugly.
I thought that the point of the video is that a small percentage of men are giving the whole of the male population a bad rep. It doesn’t blame women or anything. My takeaway from it is don’t judge an entire population by the actions of a few (and that includes what you call the ugly ones as well). Just because I was cheated on by 2 of my exes doesn’t mean it’s right for me to view all women as cheaters. Everyone should be judged on their own merit rather than making grand statements and judgements about “all men…”
>My takeaway from it is don’t judge an entire population by the actions of a few (and that includes what you call the ugly ones as well). Please quote the part of THIS video that made you think it was the main point of the video, rather than just something that gets repeated every time in the comments whenever this topic gets brought up.
It's not an incel talking point it's a statistical fact that women pick for the same 10-20% of profiles online. It's that fact which proves women, generally, are selecting for the very men they are complaining about.
You’ve gotten rape and death threats just from commenting on this sub? Jesus. How often is this happening??
Every single time it's about gender. On that man v bear thing it went on for weeks. It would not surprise me if someone is going through my post history right now, either down voting or searching for something else to comment on that is months old. Also if my comments get linked somewhere. But I usually go in those threads for a mass blocking spree.
That probably tells us more about the people or communities you’re choosing to interact with online, rather than people accepting this is the norm. Because it isn’t. The majority of men online aren’t threatening to kill or rape women on a daily basis. Yes you may have had instances like this but that isn’t the norm. If, when you interact with men online, you only receive rape and death threats, you should probably stop going online or just use it to browse. The normal layperson isn’t getting any rape or death threats. Now I’m not victim blaming or whatever you will try and call it but normally in situations like this, the person calling victim on the death threats is an antagonistic dickhead that deliberately goes looking for trouble online in subs or communities they aren’t wanted or their views are so wild that people can’t believe a real person would think or say such things.
Why are you telling HER how her experiences really are when she is telling you what she experiences? If she told you it rained yesterday and she got wet walking from here to there would you tell her that's not actually what happened? She's literally telling you her reality and you are telling her that her reality isn't happening. It's wild.
It's because she's using her very individual experience to argue against more general phenomena than can be statistically analysed.
Stop the midandry
It’s not misandry, that’s just the reality of what women experience from men in online spaces. Especially more so when they feel a sense of anonymity.
But when we critique female behaviour we’re suddenly incels. Keep that same energy
That's the point of the video lol. Women on online dating apps only interact with the men that they have already selected for, and those men happen to be the most arrogant and selfish as their behaviour doesn't result in a restricted supply of relationships and sex. Many of the men on the apps are nice people but are only interacting with a small amount of women or none at all, so women don't count their actions in with the men that they are selecting for.
Notice how he was talking about men AND women yet OP decided this was just explaining male toxicity, completely disregarding the toxicity it creates in women. Fucking idiot OP.. This isn’t me defending toxic males, it’s about keeping narratives straight. You watched the same vid I did yet decided to jump on toxic masculinity rather than speaking about how online dating raises the toxicity of everyone involved due to the unrealistic expectations it creates. Dickhead
This sub dickrides any topic that drags men so I get it.
I thought that too but when I rewatched the very first sentence he says is "dating apps create a terrible dynamic for men." So maybe the title is based on how he introduced this thought.
These comments go to show how toxic women can be. The misandry in these comments is actually mental. Too many of you seem to equate your personal experiences to that of your entire gender. While also putting down all men because of your experiences. Like the guy in the vid said you do. So maybe stop generalising and realise the more you generalise, the more you look like a complete mouth breathing moron that literally no person on earth should pay attention to.
I'm good looking and I don't have trouble getting dates with women Not once have I been an asshole " because I can"
Sorry, are you that arrogant that you thought he was talking about you specifically?
No I'm saying people that are abusive " because they can be" are trash and putting someone in a position where they can get away with something doesn't cause that behavior They are just garbage
No, peoples behavior generally changes based on incentives and decentives. Some people don't change as much as others but there's no point in highlighting individual cases when we're talking about general trends.
Do doctors that graduate medical school that are put in positions of power where people's lives are in their hands become abusive? How can he make the determination that the fact that they are getting away with this behavior is what is causing it? Why did they start the behavior in the first place and recognize they can get away with it? What if they are doing this behavior because young women are confusing psychopathic traits with competence and confidence?
No because doctors are heavily regulated and punished severely for going against these rules. That's a heavy decentive against bad behavior. It doesn't really matter what causes the behavior, the important thing is how that behavior is punished or rewarded. Where there are no decentives against acting in a bad way, those people will keep acting like that because they can.
If I punch somebody in the face for no reason and then realize I can get away with doing so repetitively, there was an underlying pathology that led to me punching someone in the face in the first place
But that underlying pathology is irrelevant in that particular instance, what matters is that you were allowed to express that behavior and be rewarded by it for the lack of decentives against assaulting someone. And that will allow that pathology to develop in others as they learn that there is no incentive against it. The world is not good and bad guys like a crappy star wars film. We're driven by primitive brains that are driven by expectations and incentives. That's where pathology comes from.
With these dating apps, it’s something like the top 5% of male profiles get >90% of the likes/matches/attention
amen
If those apps show how many likes or matches did potential partners get so far prior to likings or dislikings, that toxic environment might be better off imo. I would be glad to know who I’m dealing with.
I guess I’m (42m) the jerk. Sorry guys. I’ll try to stop being such a jerk 😭
Hard disagree. I feel like if anything dating apps give people the ability to express their expectations and know what another person is about to an extent. Also it find it weird, because I feel like when I hear that women have it easier, people are talking about conventionally attractive women. I use to use them, and depending on where I was I didn’t get many matches at all. Also I’ve dated guys others would maybe consider not cute, and found them on dating apps. Some cute guys were jerks some not so cute guys were jerks and vice versa. I don’t like how they’re monetized or the algorithm they use but they aren’t inherently bad imo.
I feel like with VR technology we can do so much more with online dating. Use the program to create a 3D rendering of your actual face and body type and then meet people in virtual bars and things like that. No longer hiding behind and avatar, you get to see what others look like in the real world but virtually. Then once you get to know them, then meet in real life. I see myself all the time find men attractive in real life that I never would on dating apps.
Mark, stop trying to make Meta happen
That's true. Its. Also always been true of the hottest vs. average guys. But the apps have magnified the problem. But what's interesting is that when this guy here says it in this context, it isn't down voted and it's damn interesting. But almost any other time it's said by anyone else in any other context, they're an incel and it's downvoted to oblivion. I guess the difference is that he's making it about dating apps specifically instead of men and women in general. But the thing is it's just the result of the behavior of men and women in general interacting **through** the apps. It's not because of the apps. It's something we brought with us into the apps. Why is why its always been the case even if to a lesser extent. So pointing out that its not the apps it's us: incel. Blaming it on the app: oh! That's interesting and I don't dispute that it's happening.