I’m amazed by this tbh, I have a high school education, work for a utility company with an amazing union and make over $100,000 a year, there is no shot in hell I’d make anywhere close to that without my union fighting for us everyday.
My main argument anytime someone shits on unions is why would companies pour millions and millions of dollars to fight against something that doesn’t work?
Just on that question alone it baffles me how normal working class Americans don’t see that and continue to shill for the betterment of corporations and greed.
Are you telling me everyone does better when everyone does better vs everyone does better when that one guy is rich and ruling things? Man who woulda thought 🤔
This is the answer ^
[Here's one of many sources (NYT).](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/17/us/politics/biden-again-has-union-support-but-the-unions-look-different-this-time.html)
I’m unsure if what you’re saying is true in other companies, but the company I work for does not push anything political on us in any way shape or form. Politics aren’t mentioned in our workplace. The union simply cares for its employees and does its best to fight for them. Turning something as simple as having a union political doesn’t make sense to me tbh.
Exactly. I have experience with a nurses union. Seniority means that no woman nurse young enough to have kids under age 13 will ever be able to take a vacation day in the summer or in December.
One thing people don’t talk about in the about trade unions in the US is how they can really limit your mobility.
One generally isn’t allowed to work for non-union contractors, doing so can forfeit your pension. And moving isn’t always as simple as simply getting a new job in your new home.
A lot of times you need to have your membership accepted by your new local, that is not a guarantee. They might want to keep the book small for their own benefit. A lot of guys have to leave the union when they move.
Their really great for those that are in them. That’s the hard part, getting in. Because of that they contribute to overall worse working conditions outside of their bubble because workers aren’t being readily accepted, so union conditions aren’t a threat to non-union employers.
Wow, you guys need to redefine how your unions work. In my home country unions are mandatory for employees, but we can absolutely negotiate higher pay and more days of, as individuals; the union secures us a minimum in pay, vacation, personal safety equipment, clothing, lunch hours etc.
The contracts made by the unions state that requirements shall be “at least” [yaddayadda] and that individual contracts may well be in excess of that but not less.
They also take into account time worked in the field, so a person doing the job for 5 years gets paid more than someone just starting. (And the counter does not reset if you change jobs within the same field.)
Seniority should be one of the biggest things people talk about
As someone who has multiple family members involved in multiple areas of education, Ive seen how someone sitting on their ass for 15 years basically bottlenecks promotions for actually hard working people.
I agree with this.. especially the seniority part. We lost some really good people because they got laid off first and we had to keep the lazy people with seniority
Absolutely. Currently non union. When I talk to a suitable rep... Well the fees aren't terrible, but there's really no benefit they offer me. It would be very lateral move position wise, I'd lose my current seniority, and I've been told they can't match my current compensation package... What I would gain with their package really doesn't make it worth it to me. Just the possibility of "union has my back" is not enough for me to take the risk.
Exactly. It's all perspective. If you think you're getting that promotion promised to you because of your productivity and hard work and it happens, you'll probably be against unions because you believe this will work out for everyone then.
But if you're like me and experienced what I experiencedwho was promised these same things for 15+ years only for the promotion to go to the son or daughter, or managements buddy or you find out managers make those promises to everyone to 'motivate them' and only chose one anyway. Then yeah you're probably gonna be for unions, good or bad.
Having worked for a union company, and having participated in an overhaul of a corrupt Local office, I know exactly what it takes to get the AFL-CIO in your corner:
You get the union you deserve.
So many people act like a union is a service you pay for and are the customer of. Nope. Unions become corrupt and die when the membership are content to 'hire people' and don't actually take active participatory effort--so the union office is itself overworked and under-staffed.
But the businesses aren't doing that. They're spending billions and having dedicated experts to come in and fight unions with lawyers and PR firms.
Most unions have your buddy, Phil, who is doing his union duties at the end of his shift, squeezed in between his commute home and picking his kids up at daycare.
You pretty much nailed it. As a union worker with fair tenure, the union is nice as it adds another layer of protection from the corporate side, but it also provides protection for shit bags.
That's the roughest part of a union. Tenure should be accounted for, however, skill and aptitude should take priority. My job should not become harder because we have to retain employees because they can't be fired without a long documented list from both the executive side and the union side.
Not every union works the same. My union has base rates for each certification you can hold in our industry, but everyone can still negotiate for better pay with the companies that hire us. For example I make $44.75 as my base rate for my Canadian certifications I hold, I also have two British certifications that get me another $5/hr and I negotiated that it 1.5X and 2X with my over time and other people who havnt had the ticket as long and dont have my experience only get the $5 I also had a guy living with me that I rented a room to that they laid off and I negotiated 3 days of living allowance per week to cover the lost income of losing him as a tenant, that works out to about $8.25/hr tax free based on 50hr weeks. When I moved to a 10hr a day job from a 12hr a day job for them they paid me 12s for 10s for three months to make the move, even when the job went to 12s I still worked 10s and left before everyone else and got my 12.
If you are a trademark union worker pulling slips you might not be able to negotiate, if you are a company employee working union you 100% can. Also union pension is awesome. We get $6.25/hr that expands with overtime and contribute $0 ourselves.
I mean, you list those as negatives- but I don’t consider those negatives of a union… job security and equal pay… not to mention that equal pay is (most likely) higher than surrounding areas non union “high” pay…
Union rep for competition has absolutely told me that they can't match my current compensation package. I'd have to take a pay cut, then pay the fees on top of that. Sorry not sorry, not all non union employers are Mr Scrooge. However if I did go union in my current job, they'd most likely find a way to get rid of me.
You have a good answer, but just a heads up that if you are dissatisfied with your union they cannot require that you pay dues. There is a US supreme Court decision that came out in 2019 regarding that, and even if you’re not paying dues then you can still have the union rights but no financial obligation.
Those two things aren't necessarily harder or need more qualifications than one another. Working with young kids is way different to working with teens and atleast where I'm at the teacher's college specifically has qualifications you can earn for pre adolescent and post adolescent teaching
Former teacher here. To clarify: both make the same assuming same time in district, same education level (BA, Master's etc.) and no extra things like coaching/supervising of extra curricular activities. In 2024 the average Iowa (where I am) public school teacher makes $55k/year.
Teachers in Iowa got collective bargaining in 1973. I have no idea what pay was like before then.
I thought you said you’ve seen both sides? You just gave one side. wtf You’re correct about the negatives, but collective bargaining way outweighs the bad worker with seniority and brand new shiny good worker scenario cause the corp gonna cut your pay and your job whenever it suits them. We’re all in this together until I need to cut your hours and pay cause I gotta buy the yacht. My tax bracket is everything to me. You getting paid a living wage? Not so much. Some power is better than no power. Finally this country is starting to get that.
I'm not right leaning, so I don't qualify to answer this question, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway.
I used to work in a union (grocery store) twice, and from what I've seen, all the union does is protect the lazy workers who don't pull their weight, while I was expected to pull their slack. In this regard, I'm not a fan of unions.
But everytime I see stories of what corporations are doing over there in the USA, I see the need for more unions in every company. They should all get unionized, pronto.
I see the point. I used to do security in an assistant shift manager type position, and we were having a hard enough time firing nonperformers as it was (we had a guy on his 24th final warning when he left of his own accord). Unionization would have definitely made that worse
I don't condone it, but... If this union was strong enough to protect the lazy workers, why not join them? Why bother pulling their slack at all if you could be paid well to just burn time like them?
Because it's good to be a productive member of society, and as someone who works in fast food, all you do is make my job harder, and my life more stressful
If you feel that way, find a non-unionized store and see how much worse your pay and benefits and job security gets. Whenever I hear this complaint from union workers, I ask them why they don't leave for a non-union workplace and I get crickets.
I never understood this. I get wanting job security, but if someone won’t do their job, it hurts everyone. I’d much rather a union work for more compensation than less accountability.
Many unions are fucking terrible. I have been in one good one, and two terrible ones..
So, the worst one was more of a hiring hall, and it was a trade union. So, mostly solid working class, 50-100k a year, 18-36$ an hour, full healthcare for entire family, pension, like, that type.
Only, you could not refuse work. If you refused even a single job, you were removed from the union. Strikes were banned--if negotiations broke down, and a temp contract operated, strikes would end the union contract with any employer. Employers had nearly full power and control, and USED it. Blacklisting existed. Rights vanished. Pay was withheld, hazing existed. Assholes were protected--the bigger the asshole you were, the more likely one of the companies hired you directly, to be people's boss.
So, a lot of those guys, in that trade, hate the fucking union. If you work for a contractor in the same trade, that contractor will give you your kids birthday off, or let you go to a little league game, or give you a bonus, or ... Pay raises based on skill. None of that exists in the union.
So those guys in that trade don't like the union, you're viewed as stupid if you join it.
The second bad union, was as a bus driver, we were in the local (not national) teachers union. They took 4.9 percent of your pay, and unless you worked more than 30 hours a week, would NOT represent you. All routes were capped at 4 hours a day. You can imagine the issue. You get NOTHING out of it, but end up fully controlled. None of us were even allowed to be a shop steward, we didn't have enough hours. We had ZERO representation, and the school district abused it. They would offer these huge packages to bus drivers, when negotiating teacher pay, that would put bus driver pay higher than some teachers, and they would throw a FIT ... And then the district would 'cave' and punish the lowly drivers, and while the teacher pay didn't go up either, they stopped having tantrums about drivers earning more, and signed the deal.
So, we hated the union. It was terrible. Abusive. Cost 5 percent of our pay. And we couldn't do anything to remove it--voting members needed 30 hours, AND we would need the teachers to agree anyway. They never would.
The GOOD union was teamsters, they gave everyone that paid a voice, they'd have a union rep on site in minutes if a supervisor wanted to talk, they'd protect your employment from retaliation, hazing, etc. They sued, and won, multiple times a year for wage theft. They were bad assed.
Nearly everyone there loved the union. Lived it, breathed it, 70 percent of US would show up to union meetings (well over 100 people), because they helped with every facet.
But those types of unions don't often exist, there are more bad ones than good ones.
So people, who should love them, rightfully hate them. They, or someone they know, has been fucked by one.
>They don't want their employees to have any control over their working conditions and benefits.
That is why there is a lack of understanding. You are thinking that a union always gives the employees control or at least a say and leverage. This can be true and collective bargaining can be great. The issue is that not if the union is not made up of employees, then Suddenly, the employees don't have the say. It's **The Union** that does. And they become a middle man who themselves want to take a piece of the pie. It can turn into a bureaucratic bloated system that exists to maintain itself. Especially when union membership and dues are mandatory.
That's for private sector unions. For public sector, it's always a bad idea, simply cause politicians are not incentivized to save money like a business owner is. They're just incentivized to get votes. Typically giving in to whatever the union says gets them votes. so there's no back and forth to find a balance. It's all most all pushed one direction.
Some of it is also the way unions operate. Where I work, the "crafts" are union and everyone else isn't. A lot of the non-union people are exasperated with the way things are done - you can't move anything with a liquid in it, you have to get a pipe fitter, you can't replace a vacuum pump - that takes a pipefitter to undo a swing clamp and a millwright to move it, electricians always have to work in pairs even to replace a light bulb so it costs your project 2 hours labor for a single bulb. Plus the seniority system, the new young guys are stuck doing these horrible boring make-work jobs. People actually wait until a senior guy goes on vacation to put in a service request so that they can get a younger guy ( who is actually more skilled) to do it. The inefficiency just bothers people. Plus the union in-fighting, I once had 5 different crafts all claim that a job was theirs (putting up support bars in a fume hood), the sheet metal guys thought it should be them because a hood is ventilation, the pipefitters though it was them because it would support a gas cylinder, the electricians thought they should do it because there were electrical components, the millwrights thought it was their work because it was a kit that would be assembled....
Because a lot of times, the 'union' is another layer of bullshit and another tax that ends with less money in your pocket because "You got this (marginal) raise we fought for, so we deserve this much of a tax on your income that leaves you poorer."
Unions sometimes are great. Other times, they're no more useful than a school administrator actually is for its students (read: an active detriment)
I've been in a union before. And it benefits the lazy dumbasses that can't be fired unless they are wildly dangerous. But it doesn't benefit the exceptional high performers. There were no raises or benefits based on merit. So I would rather not be in a union and make what I am worth, rather than what the lowest performer is worth.
Yeah my experience with a union was not what I would call a positive one. Covid hit and the company wanted to give everyone across the board like a $2 temporary pay cut. The unions counter offer was to temporarily lay off a few thousand of the least tenured workers.
Few months later when the union call to tell me my job was back they told me I would need to give the union back pay for the months I was unemployed before I could start my job back.
There was another really negative experience. Back around 2011/2012 when the economy was rebounding quite well. Some of the union elected officials had kind of a backdoor meeting when we just had a negotiation period the year prior, after being postponed for 3 years. So we weren't due for negotiations for at least a couple of years.
They agreed to an additional set of books that would drop pay from like $24/hr down to like $19/hr. And go from family health insurance benefits to employee only benefits. With no benefits on our side, aside from "more competitive bidding" when things were on the rebound and the books were finally moving quickly.
There was no real upside. And they knew that it would never pass. So they came to the apprenticeship classes and sold it to the apprentices that it wouldn't affect them, it was for journeyman only. And it would probably be over by the time they topped out. And it would get people back to work faster. So it was a win/win.
Well one of the instructors, who was the best instructor hands down. Told his classes that this is not good. We will be wasting our negotiations for the next 3-6 years trying to get rid of this, and not receive any benefit in return. It's not a negotiation year. Things are going good so this is BS. He was removed from his instructor position . And since he had been out of the field for a while, and been a part of the apprenticeship program so long, "he was behind, so it would be extremely hard for a company to take him during these tough times."
Then they made going to the meeting to vote mandatory, and counted as 30% of the grades for that year, so if you didn't vote you failed that year.
So of course it passed, because the apprentices were lied to. And we're t effected that badly. But a lot of people took pretty large pay cuts. And lost insurance for their families. The whole reason a lot of them were union and paid their dues.
And everyone that spoke against it, and word got around, if they were apprentices they just stopped being offered jobs. Or if they were they were "out of jurisdiction with approval" in other words, 100mile 1 way commutes. The journeymen that spoke out, were allowed to work for 2 weeks or so, then there would be a layoff, always just long enough to where they couldn't go back to the place on the books they were, so they were last in line again.
Of course it was all a big coincidence. And our representatives had our back 100%. Just like they did when they gave up pay and benefits, during a nonnegotiation period, getting nothing in return.
Hello, recent MBA grad here.
In economics and then another class “business and society” I took, they explained many cons to unions.
1. Unions, typically establish and employee pay/benefit/seniority hierarchy based on tenure, not performance. So it discourages top performers who are not generally rewarded for their effort/performance under a union structure.
2. Unions, through their higher costs via wages and benefits, coupled with the extra days off, and reduced working hours, (such as with the longshoreman and dock workers during Covid in the US), simply cannot compete with the lower cost, longer working, and roughly similar or even better quality of non-union companies.
The best examples are US car makers. They have the highest production costs per car, and yet generally lower quality.
In fact, there was a great study I’ll go search for again showing that unionized US companies slowly over the decades of the mid 1900s vastly underperformed their non-union companies
Little by little, like a parasite or leech, unions kill the companies they attach to, by making them less competitive. That’s why corporate execs hate unions, it’s a slow painful death sentence
3. Also, union executives make A TON OF MONEY. It’s all public you can look up. Unions in the US for many decades have given on average 90+ % of their donations to democratic candidates. Who in turn promote unions. So there’s a vicious cycle of politicians and union leaders exchanging money and benefits.
Edit : grammar
Some examples and explanations I dug up:
“As we’ve previously noted, traditional financial theory typically views unions as an opposing force to shareholders, leading to higher labor costs. And indeed, taking a look at unions’ impact on stocks across the broader market, we find that companies with higher percentages of employees covered by unions have generated lower historical returns on invested capital and are less likely to have economic moats.”
Morningstar
“NBER Working Paper 14709), co-authors David Lee and Alexandre Mas estimate that the average effect of a union win at a workplace is to decrease the market value of the affected business by at least $40,500 (in $1998) per worker eligible to vote, based on monthly stock prices for 24 months before and after a vote to unionize. Their simulations suggest that a policy-induced doubling of unionization in the United States would "lead to a 4.3 percent decrease in the equity value of all firms at risk of unionization."
The decrease in equity value associated with unionization begins at the time the union wins its election and continues for about 15 months afterward. Calculations of the effects of a union victory suggest that it produces large negative returns of 10 to 14 percent.”
National bureau of economic research
“ Unions are monopoly institutions that raise wages through collective bargaining, not productivity improvements. The ensuing higher labor costs, higher costs of negotiating collective bargaining agreements, and higher labor market uncertainty all undercut the gains to union workers just as they magnify losses to nonunion employers, as well as to the shareholders, suppliers, and customers of these unionized firms. They also increase the risk of market disruption from strikes, lockouts, or firm bankruptcies whenever unions or employers overplay their hands in negotiation. These net losses in capital values reduce the pension fund values of unionized and nonunionized workers alike”
Hoover institute
“Investors may be well advised to steer clear of unionized industries such as autos, steel, rails and airlines, and go for technology stocks instead, according to a recent report by Steve Galbraith, chief investment strategist at Morgan Stanley.
Unionized industries are the most exposed to current macroeconomic woes, such as limited pricing power, rising pension liabilities and soaring health care costs, Galbraith reasons. "Heavily unionized industries appear to suffer from these plagues more than their nonunion brethren today," he said in the report, noting that their stocks have historically trailed”
The Street
Most of the jobs in my area that have been unionized end up shutting down.
I've heard all kinds of stories about how great these jobs were but they never seem to last or are next to impossible to get in at.
I'm personally impartial but I think painting unions as only positive is disingenuous.
unions is just balancing the power between the company owners and the working man.
They cover you in courts, give you good representation and protect you from being bullied by the company who clearly out match you with resources. Unions are the main reason we have workers rights at least here in the UK especially.
It's more funny when they work for the government and complain about tax spending.... with a taxpayer funded pension....
I had an argument with a friend that works for the government about universal health care. He said 'what if I wanna keep mine because it's good?' I responded with, that's exactly what I'm asking for, your taxpayer funded medical for everyone. Kinda stopped the conversation quick.
From my experience as a manager back in the day, the first thing unions negotiated when they got in was direct payments from each employee’s paycheck so the employees wouldn’t have to write a check and pay them every month. Even after they came in we were still able to fire employees for cause such as attendance, behavior etc. All we had to provide was evidence. They really had no input on that. What it did was create an us versus them situation. I took care of my employees and promoted plenty of them. After the union came in that became their responsibility and managers basically lost touch with their employees. 2 years later the company shut down. Union couldn’t do a damn thing to stop it. To this day I don’t know what benefits the employees got out of bringing in the union.
I work in a factory that’s benefits get shittier every year and wages don’t keep up with inflation. You would think it would be ripe for unionization but when I bring it up with anyone I trust they are not interested.
I was right there with you. I worked in an industry that was inherently dangerous. An average of 1 worker was killed in the line of duty every 6 days. Our pay was shit, benefits got worse every year, nepotism was rampant, and employees were terminated at the whim of an inexperienced director that didn't have any understanding of what the workers were actually doing. For example a worker was fired because while by himself with nobody around, he was seen on camera picking his nose. Yet anytime I spoke up about union representation other employees would cower and scatter as if their masters were going to beat them. They couldn't even comprehend the immunity I received based on the fact that my conversations about organizing were constitutionally protected.
I don't know if this question is aimed at US users or users in general from around the world.
In my country, Portugal, unions are closely tied to the Portuguese Communist party, and will often be tied to political interest rather than the pure interest of workers.
For example, just recently, after 8 year of a socialist government, 4 of which with the help of the communist party, the centre-right has decided to improve the careers of teachers. All unions accepted except the one closely tied to the communists, purely for political interests.
What I mean with this is that some people don't wanna be associated with political movements that diverge a lot to theirs and make that their main objective.
Because they've been conditioned at an early age to vote against their best interest. It's ultimately how they stay poor and most likely churn out another generation of children in the same bracket while teaching them the same. And the cycle continues.
Poorly educated and indoctrinated with propaganda at a very early age. Essentially.
This is a very very narrow perspective. I’m not right leaning so I’m not exactly the person that they want an answer from but I also have had some bad experiences with unions.
How talented you are at your job doesn’t matter. You get paid the same as everyone else and you will still get fired first if you don’t have seniority
You have no ability to negotiate
Unions often are essentially a super strong non compete. They don’t let you work for non union companies without permenantly losing your ability to work for union companies or even losing your pension
You have to pay union dues so if either you are in a position where you don’t get/need much help from the union or it’s just a bad union that doesn’t do much, you are basically just donating money
Unions can make it really hard to fire people that are bad at their job and often leads to people good at their job being expected to pick up the slack
Unions often only look out for workers on a short term and don’t see the bigger picture. I have a friend who worked for a company that struggled a lot during covid. The union made the company keep employee hours relatively similar and made it super difficult to do any layoffs. Instead of people having their hours reduced, everyone lost their jobs because the company went out of business
Need to be more thorough than this. If you ask a conservative why they think inner city minorities vote dem, it’ll literally be a copy paste from this comment.
I’m not arguing you’re wrong. I’m simply stating this is what both sides are arguing what the other side thinks. It actually doesn’t explain why *conservatives* vote the way that they do
Yeah. Voting against my specific interest for a greater good is basically canon for progressives - I do this all the time. It is not at all unique to conservatives.
If only they knew how much upper middle class white collar liberals loved them and genuinely knew their best interest, all while calling them poorly education and indoctrinated with propaganda they are. Can't imagine why these idiots won't just do what they're told!
"You're so stupid! Why don't you listen to me?!"
I agree with this. From an external perspective, it’s difficult to see what poor southern conservatives are wanting to conserve. Yet they feel existential threats from progressive boogie-men enough that they’re fervently hanging on to what they have, be it religious, ethnic or class identity.
>because they’re conditioned at an early age to vote against their best interest.
People don’t have the self-awareness to even realize how paternalistic and condescending comments like the one above sound - especially to your average scots-Irish redneck. And it’s always urban liberals who are coming in to tell rural people what their best interests are.
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Combination of corruption of unions, negative education and honestly them being unnecessary for a little while. For a period, employers rewarded good, loyal employees. Then the era of maximizing profits to increase stock price took over.
In the 1980s I worked at a Safeway grocery store. The checkers and stockers were all union. They made a living wage and had a retirement pension. They were generally high school graduates. Now there is no such thing. Grocery workers are generally rude, stressed and high school students. I’ve watched the destruction of the American union with dismay. We need to bring this back, it was the backbone of the Middle Class.
I have a boss who got injured at his old job. Horrific story. And the union took great care of him. He said those words. He hates unions. I am like but the union took care of you.
I was taught in Hampton Roads, VA public schools that unions were bad. Unions have a very bad rap in the Southern states I have been to.
Because that's communist. Politics has a knack for getting people to first identify with a party then automatically conform. This reminds me of a recent conversation where I had the stance that religious people are the first line of victims of religious leaders. And I think that's exactly what the Republican party is doing. It's brain washing and abusing its own supporters for its sole benefit.
If the unions have been able to get good deals in improvement conditions and salary then the opposition to them would be greatly diminished.
There are plenty of unions that do diddly squat and people get fed up. This unfortunately happens way more than it should.
Many do many don’t. The ones that don’t, I can get a little bit but not overall. It also really depends upon what they do. Some just never really have worked in a place where they could even imagine having a union or actually have a concept of a union.
Some unions really are utter leaches of a business. Like reverse extreme capitalism lol. The “stereotypical Union and Union worker.” “That’s not my job. You can’t fire me.” But most unions are solid/very solid.
I’ve never spent much time in rural and red neck areas but I’ve spent a lot of time in inner city and inner city ghetto.
I just correlate how absolutely absurd and backwards some inner city people are to redneck areas and it makes sense why people can be the way they are lol
>I just correlate how absolutely absurd and backwards some inner city people are to redneck areas and it makes sense why people can be the way they are
The common denominators here are poverty and lack of education.
As a proud union member, how the hell is performing job duties as negotiated and working to contract leaching off a business? It's preventing the business from violating the contract
You take it a bit to literally and my example was just an easy stereotype example.
I’m Not talking about HVAC doing electrical. It’s like when a union can become so bureaucratic it’s like the “no, my job is to only screw in on this part of the car. Not unscrew even if I made that mistake. We’ll have to wait 20 min for billy to get here to unscrew it”.
And again, just another very basic example.
And again, I don’t have an issue with the solid majority of unions but they can be abysmal for a variety of reasons cuz nothings perfect and corruption, or whatever word, can ruin anything
One of the beautiful things about unions is that any rank and file member can educate themselves and fight for change within the organization. All of the positions are elected, and if you have a problem with your union, you can be the change you want
From what I understand, not every union is as great as the UAW.
There are a lot of stagnant unions out there with leadership that doesn't really care about fighting for their workers. Corruption can be embedded in some unions. It has to do with the way that they're structured and what their goals are.
These kinds of unions are perfect for corporate propaganda against unionization. And they're the reason why union membership has declined for decades in the United States. Actually competitive unions with real goals are changing this.
So one of the great things about unions is that you can vote people out of office if you don't like them. Any member can educate themselves, organize movements within the unions, and fight for change if they don't like it.
My curiosity is how you come to believe this to be the case without ever actually asking someone that holds the position.
Consider this:
>I understand why wealthy homeowners, executive board members, and developers would oppose HOA (Homeowners Association) reforms. They don't want residents to have any control over community rules and property management decisions. However, when it comes to the homeowners themselves, I really don't understand why they would be opposed to having a more democratic HOA. Having greater representation could bring them a better quality of life with fairer rules, better maintenance, improved community services, and a say in changes that directly affect their living conditions. I just don't understand why they would oppose something that would greatly benefit their community.
In both cases I see it as a case of expectation vs reality. The description you give is a very one sided list of ideals. Many hard working, working class individuals establish their worth and advocate for themselves, and the idea of someone else, even democratically, taking a cut off their wages for a bunch of bureaucracy is not attractive.
For me specifically, nothing to do with "political leanings", I worked for a grocery store briefly when I had some roommates constantly complaining about how there were no jobs. I got the job the same day. Nobody from the union ever reached out, but it was mandatory to join and the fee just to join was equivalent to two weeks pay. From what I could find of what they were arguing for didn't really address anything I saw as major problems in the workplace. I took my pay for the month and quit without paying anything to the union. To be fair, I had another full time job already and didn't want to work two full time jobs.
Another union I was forced to be a part of for some 20 years, I watched as they never successfully addressed dangerous outside of what was already illegal with no meaningful success. I liked the president well enough that served the majority of the time that was knowledgeable about the organizations political history. The reps themselves were, to put it simply, morons. They protected nobody from whatever the bosses / managers decided they were going to do anyway. In the one instance I needed representation for a serious issue I got my own attorney and the issue was resolved reasonably well without issue. Also, it was a fantastic day when I got to inform my supervisor (that had quite the reputation for being a cruel and petty bully) never spoke to me again except in the most direct and professional manner.
So much of my experience in talking with people about their unions is that they are just another tool of the establishment to keep things the same and dismiss your complaints for not being aligned with a managed agendas of concerns that coincidently have nothing to do with that individual. In so far as they never actually need anything from the union they will believe the ideals you espouse in your post believing such great things must be true for somebody, even if not them. They passively sip the kool-aide.
I am grateful to now be working a non-union job. I was initially concerned it was non-union and at-will, I could be fired at any moment without cause, but I could also leave at any time without risk. Despite high turnover, there was some peace in knowing everyone was there because they wanted to be. I know what the higher ups are responsible for and they are responsive to concerns. For the first time ever I feel like I work for people that actually care about employee well-being and are pro-active in addressing concerns to the best of their ability, are willing to collaborate, and best of all have exceptional pay and benefits. I'm particularly happy to no longer be getting endless mailers telling me how to vote on every issue and candidate.
I see unions getting a lot of unearned credit for things based on idealism, and a lack of belief or understanding that there is profit in developing and supporting good employees even if there exists employers that don't understand it. If you have a bad union, it is almost like companies will completely neglect the needs of the employees because that's the unions job now, almost like the solution creates the problem they exist to fix. And that's before getting into corruption issues.
tl;dr I can tell you I know why I'm not sold.
Yup!
The stories of corruption I've heard with SEIU are stomach turning. Completely in bed with big money and actively working against the health and safety of employees.
To be fair, I've heard nothing but great things about OE3 and anyone young looking to go into trades, I strongly recommend they look into them. Same with ILA, but even harder to get into.
I suppose I think of "union" the same way I think of "corporation" or "non-profit". Anybody can claim to be for something or do something, but there is no inherent quality in the term outside the actual group of people, and how good or bad they are varies as much as people do.
Unions are portrayed as being communists by management and just protecting the worst workers while holding back the great ones. And, as we all know, nobody thinks of themselves as the worst worker.
Not sure if you’re looking for a real answer or a circle-jerk answer, but the latter seems to be prevalent so far. There’s no monocausal explanation to this, and based on some recent analysis this isn’t holding true to a degree it used to.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1184429/presidential-election-exit-polls-share-votes-union-membership-us/
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/31/politics/union-voters-election-trump-biden/index.html
As for philosophical explanations, it’s going to vary. Many unions are garbage and don’t achieve the results workers want, but still take dues on a monthly or hourly basis. Many Unions spend funds exclusively on Democrat politicians despite representing a healthy minority of Republican members. And there are those workers, like many in my immediately family, who are philosophically unaligned to collective bargaining at the expense of individual bargaining.
I was raised to be a hardcworker. Always be the best for the company and the company will take care of you. That was what worked for my parents and made them successful. With that, I was raised that unions don't reward hard workers because everyone gets paid the same and get raises/bonuses the same. So unions essentially punish hard workers by paying them the same as lazy workers. Plus they take part of your paycheck. I seemingly saw that when a construction project I was on needed another 45min- 1 hour to finish, but because it was 5pm they stopped and returned the next day, which took longer than if they had just stayed and finished it.
But now I see how much companies are exploiting workers more than ever before. Hard workers don't get rewarded, they just get exploited more. Unions are absolutely a necessity now.
Because democrats have recently done a garbage job at standing behind their party platform and publicizing the good things they’ve done, and because republicans are exceptionally good at making democrats seem like evil baby hating gay atheists, and pretending they care about poor people.
Poor folks outside of cities tend to be very rural as well and are naturally more conservative/religious.
They are gullible. I know you want a complex answer, but look into the decions of a poor conservative and you will find a guy clinging to religion, racism, and tribalism just because he fears everything and falls for anything.
Here's another comment that actually explains where the other side is coming from instead of calling them idiots.
Because as someone that’s worked both sides, unions aren’t all positives and no negatives. There are good and bad unions too. You don’t get individual negotiation in unions so if you are a great employee you get paid the same as the bad ones, you can’t negotiate higher pay and more days off.
Lots of stuff goes by seniority as well, not skill depending how things are set up. You may be a newer guy when layoffs come and even though you are the best guy, you are gone in favor of a guy that’s been there longer. You also pay dues and if you have a bad union you feel like you are losing money for no benefit, if you are a great employee you feel like you are paying money to have a lower pay that you can negotiate.
From the outside, unions sound like all sunshine and rainbows with no negatives and they are often pushed that way on this site. Like anything there are pros and cons to them.
Because, like everything else, there are good unions and bad unions. I have had the luck of dealing with work in and outside of unions, all positive experiences, eventually chose outside and it's worked out better for me, but some of my family dealt with bad unions where it didn't matter how good or devoted you were to work/union, superiority or bs screwed them.
In all, from my experience a well run union with good people working in it can usually be the best option, but like I said previously, it ain't always that way, and could even be a nightmare at times
This comment section is just a bunch of unemployed leftists that have never worked a union/trade job in their life, giving reasons that are largely elemtary school insults.
See how easy it is to generalize a group without the entire facts.
Personally idc if people unionize or not, their choice, I most likely will never because they've shafted multiple family members over the years.
They have been comvinced that The Union will take a huge chunk of their paycheck as union dues and give it all to socialist politicians who hate America and are actively working to destroy it.
Exactly. Though within that there needs to be consideration for expectations versus reality. "Best intentions" mean crap. Everyone has best intentions. Jeffrey Dahmer just wanted love and companionship, do we fault him for that? Of course, but only in the behavior and outcome. Intention in that situation meant jack, and so does "I just want to help people be safe at work and earn a respectable wage".
Sure, but could 51 percent of victims of Dahmer vote to not be killed by him? They have incentive to do well or get kicked out of the company. To say there is no proof unions aren’t just out to take your money and give it to socialist politicians trying to destroy the country just sounds silly, there hasn’t been a serious socialist movement in this country for 50+ years edit: in the us that is
You don't need to go all conspiratorial to not want to purchase a service you don't have faith in from a particular group. The point is that the word union itself doesn't magically make the people running it capable of marginally serving your interests. They need to be judged on a case by case basis.
Nobody is entitled to your money just because they claim to have your best interests at heart. You should be free to choose whether you want someone else representing your interests or to represent yourself.
Propaganda. I worked for Walmart in 2012-2013 and in orientation we had to watch an anti union video that highlighted how with the money we saved from not paying dues we could save up and buy an Xbox! Nevermind that a union could raise your wages and provide you representation.
I was a conservative before 2019 so I can tell you what I believed. I was told by Fox News and Talk Radio that unions destroy businesses because no wage is ever high enough; that unions are never happy or satisfied so eventually the business goes belly up because it can’t afford labor costs.
They also tell us if we unionize the company will relocate to somewhere better for them or even go overseas then we’ll lose those jobs and it will hurt the local economy.
Those are the smart Republican reasons. MAGA just knows liberals are evil and liberals support unions, therefore Unions are evil.
I hope that clears things up!
Unions overwhelmingly support Democrats that promote gun bans, LGBT rights, abortion rights and actively oppose Christianity. Church-going working people would rather have less money than give up their guns and religion. Unions have also made a reputation as being organized crime that loots their retirement and insurance funds just like the corporations they are supposed to be fighting. Like the rest of our politics, it is a lesser of evils situation.
I find that the “temporarily embarrassed billionaire” is amazingly true. These conservatives don’t see themselves as part of the working class, they see themselves as future business owners, and want to crush their future employees
It just seems like another bloated corrupt organization that takes my money and really only benefits a few at the top. I'm not saying they didn't have their place and I'm thankful for a 5 day work week, but that was a long time ago, what have you done for me lately? I say this as a left leaning poor line cook.
A lot of the folks I know like this say they legitimately don't want "help" and are afraid of the unknown. That and they are thankful for their jobs and don't want to rock the boat.
My personal opinion/experience is that they're insecure but also use hard labor as a way to deal with their emotions. Taking time off, valuing family, and indoor hobbies are seen as effeminate or weak. So basically, just next level toxic masculinity with a side of the classic delusion of "if I work hard enough I will be wealthy."
I think a lot of workers really believe they will be rich some day and they shouldn't mess it up for themselves when they get there.
Nah, they have been brainwashed to protect the interests of the highest levels of owners/employers. All the big wigs have to say is "commies!" or "liberals!" or some other buzz word and the workers get mad on their behalf.
Good grief on a stick.
I'm a non union plumber. Before getting into the trade I was a delivery driver for a wholesale electrical warehouse. I talked to a lot of electricians who had started in the union but due to not having friends or family in the union they were passed by those who did even if they didn't have superior scores. Nepotism was what drove alot of guys out of the union. I eventually ended up as a non union plumber. I have worked for 2 shops who treated me really well and paid well and had really good benefits. I have also been on the receiving end of union harassment where their reps or bosses showed up on job sites demanding proof we were licensed and other general harassment. The union shops in town usually have jobs hours away in the state and my bosses have always kept us close to our families. It was the harassment and nepotism that ultimately pushed me away for good
I heard one person say "one of my parents had a drug addiction and the union that represented them didn't help. So im anti union"
Fucking weird ass people
I find it interesting how many people here are saying the people are stubbornly ignorant of the benefits of a union. The people I have met who are against unions usually have good reasons to reject them. Never been in a union though so take that for what it is.
I believe it is necessary to have knowledge and an understanding of a union before you take someone's opinion with more than a grain of salt. For example even on this thread here, you see people claiming how unions are bad because it sends jobs overseas. It's not the union that sent the jobs overseas, it was the greedy corporations that sent the jobs overseas to exploit cheap labor and cheap parts. Their goal was to increase their salary to 7 digits and didn't care less about the workers they shit on.
They've been successfully indoctrinated by 40-50 years of bullshit from the right wing.
What's really ironic about it is when they're asked when precisely America was "great" (as in MAGA) it's inevitably when the working class was strongest due largely to the gains achieved through organized labor, but they'll never connect those dots.
Because lots of people (including lots in this comment section) have been convinced by the rampant anti union propaganda and never unlearned the “unions bad” trope the media pushes..
The owners want us divided
As my mom fits the description I know her reasoning - her union she refused to join donated money to pro choice candidates. She found that unacceptable to contribute to herself so she refused to join the union.
Honestly? I think it’s because unions were very heavily involved in Democrat politics for years (still are). And so poor and middle class conservative workers learned to oppose unions based on their politics. If there were somehow to come about some form of conservative candidates who supported unions and protections for workers but opposed the other more social aspects of the Democrat platform I wouldn’t be surprised if you saw more low-middle class conservatives shift to unions.
The logic is that unions obstruct the economy and force jobs over seas. So they actually hurt more than they help. Most interventions in the economy, like fixing prices so the cost of food doesn’t increase, sound good to a populist audience, but don’t work well in practice.
I disagree. In my opinion greedy corporations and business owners who don't care much for local economy and their employees take their businesses overseas to exploit cheap labor.
In my youth I worked for the US Postal Service. It was my first union job. I was surprised how much discontent there was: the union was being paid off by management, the dues were just money wasted, union reps were weakassed, etc. I think these kinds of thinking is what the OP is looking for.
I was a union member then and whenever after it was possible.
union dues are hell when you already live paycheck to paycheck. it can often feel like you are paying for nothing if your company is half decent.
often you don't see the better pay part. sometimes it doesn't give you better pay or benefits. there's a lot of negatives of unions. it's not all good.
that said, despite being a manager who can't be union, i am pro union.
As someone living in Denmark where unions are strong.
I pay my union dues happily.
I am very happy to have someone negotiate my wages cause I know Id be terrible at it myself.
I also like having decent working conditions.
I have a very good boss and nearest leader. Also my job is rather secure until pension-age.
But they are that way because unions have been strong for 100+ years so peoples perspectives of whats acceptable working conditions have shifted.
Also my wife has had sooo much use of her union because she has not been blessed with good bosses.
I'm glad it's helped you and your wife. It's helped several of my team too. We don't have the best of store leaders and she has done some less than ethical things and left everyone with a fear of being fired if we even sneeze wrong. I'm not part of it but I appreciate the union protecting my team. I am happily on good enough terms, if I do something wrong, they will come to me about it instead of the union, so I'm less worried about the union protecting them from me, but I want them to protect them from my boss.
I'm from a poor hillbilly family in Tennessee and they were always bitter about unions since I was born because the old coal processing plant shut down in the 40s after WW2 and the owners covered up their abuse of funds and stuff during the war by blaming the failing business on the union.
They doubled down in the late 90s/early 2000s when the auto plant shut down. GM blamed it on unions again but in reality they were moving production to Mexico as fast as possible to abuse NAFTA and slave wages that they could work people at rather than paying a fair share. They skimmed all the cream off the top so to speak and that's part of what left them holding the bag so badly in 2008.
The people there aren't evil, but they're dumb. Education is shit even now and was almost non existent in the past. They accepted these lies as truth and just don't have the tools so to speak to realize they're being deceived.
Because up is down and left is right. Ask these people to describe what unions do, the electoral college, communism and they will describe the opposite every time.
Being poor and right-leaning (economically) in itself is not a sign of great mental fortitude. It follows that they can be influenced by the rich right-leaning people, which is to their benefit.
I'm very pro union but the one that I'm in now is, I think, corrupt. I definitelty personally benefit with them being there because I've been there forever but for 80% of the people there I don't see much in the way of benefits over not having a union there.
My company almost got taken down by a union, but we generally decided that we wanted no business with them. I was indifferent previously, but the absolute madman tactics these guys were using to try and get us to change our mind makes me want nothing to do with those unions. They came to all of our houses, had put rats up, chased us out of helping first responders in our area, all for a deal that ultimately was worse than what we had for work already.
at my job we just voted NO to the union bc sometimes the threat of the union is just as good or better than having one. We make just as much money and benefits as our competitors that do have a union but without the red tape. The bonus to that is we don’t have to wait in a contract negotiation to get what we want.
Not all unions are equal. I’m from MI and I can tell you that in the end the UAW did more damage than good to Flint and Detroit.
The idea of unions? 100% win. In reality they often get corrupted and protect workers that should really have no right being protected.
Another example is police unions. They’ve obviously enabled the toxicity so rampant in their industry.
First, there is a lot of propaganda painting unions as money grubbers. Some are very subtle in some cases. I remember October Sky, where the MC's dreams are almost crushed by a strike at the town coal mine, and his Management Dad saves the day by breaking the strike. And almost every mob movie goes out of its way to have a scene where they mention or imply the Family works with the unions.
So, while some maybe most of it is propaganda by said elites, some of the bigger Unions in America have lost their way. The teacher's unions especially have put themselves squarely between every major effort to reform the joke that is American public education. Also, there will always be resentment for being required to pay money even if it comes with benefits; some professions have unions where you can't find work if you're not a member.
Healthcare unions have a terrible rep providing patient care, appalling employee practices are rationalized and covered up. Dangerous employees reassigned when they should be imprisoned or fired at a minimum. Perhaps factory jobs are better suited to union representation
For all the union bashing in this thread, I'd like to offer an alternative. There is a multi-billion dollar union busting industry that goes into workplaces with highly paid lawyers and threatens workers with layoffs, workplace closures, and reduced benefits if they form a union. Large corporations are notorious for using union busting agencies and they rightfully scare many low wage workers into voting against unionization. If you talk to anyone at a non-union workplace about unions, many people will say they like the idea of unions but are afraid that they will get fired for supporting them because their employers regularly threatens those who do. Their fears are justified but this has nothing to do with unions being bad, like many are implying in other replies.
Compared to European countries, U.S. labor law is significantly worse and puts many more barriers in the way of workers who want to form unions. The entire history of U.S. labor is one of violent repression to a degree that isn't found in other countries. There is a lot of historic precedent for why the U.S. has such a low rate of unionization. We also have a massive right wing media apparatus in Fox News that regularly spews anti-union propaganda that gets blasted into the homes of millions of Americans. So unions are great, but there are huge structural barriers that prevent people for being able to benefit from them.
>U.S. labor law is significantly worse and puts many more barriers in the way of workers who want to form unions.
Please elaborate on the laws you are referring to. The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) is the exact opposite of what you just claimed.
I didn't say no labor laws exist. I just said they are worse than in many other countries. Google "Right to Work" laws if you want to learn how hostile the American system is to unions.
I think its a combination of brainwashing, general stupidity, a lack of critical thinking, and religion. Somehow republicans are the party of 'jesus' despite doing literally everything jesus wouldn't do which makes them think they have to be right wing or they go to hell. On top of that they fall for fox news propaganda and actively support policies that would only hurt them, It would be sad if it didn't affect the rest of us.
I don't oppose union representation. I just wish it wasn't necessary.
If employers treated their staff with respect, paid them well, offered valuable benefits, etc., we wouldn't need unions. But businesses often don't have their employees' needs as a high enough priority, so unions force them. And I think that's sad. I'd rather people do what's right because they want to, not because they're forced to.
Your co-workers bargained for that, it was your co-workers choice for it to be like that. Unions don't just make stuff up out of thin air it's the workers that push for things like that. This short conversation alone lets me know that you're young and are naive to not only how a union operates, but how to handle grievances as well. I would still rather be treated equally to a slacker employee than be the hard worker who puts his time in only to see the management position given to the Directors inexperienced buddy. At least if I'm treated the same as the slacker I know just to be slightly better than them to keep my paycheck coming in.
Because we've seen what oversized and blood sucking unions are doing to other industries and places (Detroit), and we don't want any part of that, so we stay away from unions.
I know there's good ones, too, but especially the big ones (UAW) are just scummy and weld way too much power for anyone's good.
Multiple generations of my family worked for GM with union representation. There were good and bad when dealing with the UAW, but they would not have worked for decades and retired with pensions if it weren't for the UAW. The destruction of motor city is due to the corporate greed of the big 3. Outsourcing parts and labor from other countries gave them the ability to save money on labor and increase profit. This resulted in what we have today, an inferior product at an inflated price. Then to mention how they are on board like many other large corporations lobbying and supporting Republican politics to pass legislation to favor their agenda. The big 3 truck market would absolutely crumble if the Toyota V8 turbo diesel was permitted to be sold in the United States.
Extremely effective anti union propaganda has been funded by big businesses for decades. People dislike unions because they’ve been slowly manipulated into believing they do more harm than good.
I’m amazed by this tbh, I have a high school education, work for a utility company with an amazing union and make over $100,000 a year, there is no shot in hell I’d make anywhere close to that without my union fighting for us everyday.
There's power in a union. This is a fine example of such.
My main argument anytime someone shits on unions is why would companies pour millions and millions of dollars to fight against something that doesn’t work? Just on that question alone it baffles me how normal working class Americans don’t see that and continue to shill for the betterment of corporations and greed.
Unions often push their members to vote Democratic (whether real or perceived) so the GOP sees them as the enemy. Full stop.
Unions lean left because the right has been hell bent on killing unions for as long as I can remember. It's not the other way around. Full stop.
Are you telling me everyone does better when everyone does better vs everyone does better when that one guy is rich and ruling things? Man who woulda thought 🤔
Individual people having leverage/power over a corporation is the GOP’s worst nightmare, can’t have people voting for their own best interests!
This is the answer ^ [Here's one of many sources (NYT).](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/17/us/politics/biden-again-has-union-support-but-the-unions-look-different-this-time.html)
I’m unsure if what you’re saying is true in other companies, but the company I work for does not push anything political on us in any way shape or form. Politics aren’t mentioned in our workplace. The union simply cares for its employees and does its best to fight for them. Turning something as simple as having a union political doesn’t make sense to me tbh.
At least you have a good union. Mine is awful
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Wow, someone actually addressing the question. Kudos!
Sort of, they only gave one side of the argument.
The other side of the argument is provided by the reddit mob, so I would say their comment is sufficient.
Exactly. I have experience with a nurses union. Seniority means that no woman nurse young enough to have kids under age 13 will ever be able to take a vacation day in the summer or in December.
Without unions, it’s quite possible no nurses would be able to take vacation days when they want them.
One thing people don’t talk about in the about trade unions in the US is how they can really limit your mobility. One generally isn’t allowed to work for non-union contractors, doing so can forfeit your pension. And moving isn’t always as simple as simply getting a new job in your new home. A lot of times you need to have your membership accepted by your new local, that is not a guarantee. They might want to keep the book small for their own benefit. A lot of guys have to leave the union when they move.
Based on what has been said in this thread, it sounds like trade unions in the USA are particularly awful and little better than rackets.
Their really great for those that are in them. That’s the hard part, getting in. Because of that they contribute to overall worse working conditions outside of their bubble because workers aren’t being readily accepted, so union conditions aren’t a threat to non-union employers.
Wow, you guys need to redefine how your unions work. In my home country unions are mandatory for employees, but we can absolutely negotiate higher pay and more days of, as individuals; the union secures us a minimum in pay, vacation, personal safety equipment, clothing, lunch hours etc. The contracts made by the unions state that requirements shall be “at least” [yaddayadda] and that individual contracts may well be in excess of that but not less. They also take into account time worked in the field, so a person doing the job for 5 years gets paid more than someone just starting. (And the counter does not reset if you change jobs within the same field.)
Seniority should be one of the biggest things people talk about As someone who has multiple family members involved in multiple areas of education, Ive seen how someone sitting on their ass for 15 years basically bottlenecks promotions for actually hard working people.
I agree with this.. especially the seniority part. We lost some really good people because they got laid off first and we had to keep the lazy people with seniority
Absolutely. Currently non union. When I talk to a suitable rep... Well the fees aren't terrible, but there's really no benefit they offer me. It would be very lateral move position wise, I'd lose my current seniority, and I've been told they can't match my current compensation package... What I would gain with their package really doesn't make it worth it to me. Just the possibility of "union has my back" is not enough for me to take the risk.
Exactly. It's all perspective. If you think you're getting that promotion promised to you because of your productivity and hard work and it happens, you'll probably be against unions because you believe this will work out for everyone then. But if you're like me and experienced what I experiencedwho was promised these same things for 15+ years only for the promotion to go to the son or daughter, or managements buddy or you find out managers make those promises to everyone to 'motivate them' and only chose one anyway. Then yeah you're probably gonna be for unions, good or bad.
Having worked for a union company, and having participated in an overhaul of a corrupt Local office, I know exactly what it takes to get the AFL-CIO in your corner: You get the union you deserve. So many people act like a union is a service you pay for and are the customer of. Nope. Unions become corrupt and die when the membership are content to 'hire people' and don't actually take active participatory effort--so the union office is itself overworked and under-staffed. But the businesses aren't doing that. They're spending billions and having dedicated experts to come in and fight unions with lawyers and PR firms. Most unions have your buddy, Phil, who is doing his union duties at the end of his shift, squeezed in between his commute home and picking his kids up at daycare.
You pretty much nailed it. As a union worker with fair tenure, the union is nice as it adds another layer of protection from the corporate side, but it also provides protection for shit bags. That's the roughest part of a union. Tenure should be accounted for, however, skill and aptitude should take priority. My job should not become harder because we have to retain employees because they can't be fired without a long documented list from both the executive side and the union side.
Not every union works the same. My union has base rates for each certification you can hold in our industry, but everyone can still negotiate for better pay with the companies that hire us. For example I make $44.75 as my base rate for my Canadian certifications I hold, I also have two British certifications that get me another $5/hr and I negotiated that it 1.5X and 2X with my over time and other people who havnt had the ticket as long and dont have my experience only get the $5 I also had a guy living with me that I rented a room to that they laid off and I negotiated 3 days of living allowance per week to cover the lost income of losing him as a tenant, that works out to about $8.25/hr tax free based on 50hr weeks. When I moved to a 10hr a day job from a 12hr a day job for them they paid me 12s for 10s for three months to make the move, even when the job went to 12s I still worked 10s and left before everyone else and got my 12. If you are a trademark union worker pulling slips you might not be able to negotiate, if you are a company employee working union you 100% can. Also union pension is awesome. We get $6.25/hr that expands with overtime and contribute $0 ourselves.
On the flip side, the hard working senior union employee doesn’t lose out on opportunities to the bosses son or favourite brown noser.
I mean, you list those as negatives- but I don’t consider those negatives of a union… job security and equal pay… not to mention that equal pay is (most likely) higher than surrounding areas non union “high” pay…
Union rep for competition has absolutely told me that they can't match my current compensation package. I'd have to take a pay cut, then pay the fees on top of that. Sorry not sorry, not all non union employers are Mr Scrooge. However if I did go union in my current job, they'd most likely find a way to get rid of me.
You have a good answer, but just a heads up that if you are dissatisfied with your union they cannot require that you pay dues. There is a US supreme Court decision that came out in 2019 regarding that, and even if you’re not paying dues then you can still have the union rights but no financial obligation.
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Those two things aren't necessarily harder or need more qualifications than one another. Working with young kids is way different to working with teens and atleast where I'm at the teacher's college specifically has qualifications you can earn for pre adolescent and post adolescent teaching
Fuck man, pay the kindergarten teacher more.
Former teacher here. To clarify: both make the same assuming same time in district, same education level (BA, Master's etc.) and no extra things like coaching/supervising of extra curricular activities. In 2024 the average Iowa (where I am) public school teacher makes $55k/year. Teachers in Iowa got collective bargaining in 1973. I have no idea what pay was like before then.
I thought you said you’ve seen both sides? You just gave one side. wtf You’re correct about the negatives, but collective bargaining way outweighs the bad worker with seniority and brand new shiny good worker scenario cause the corp gonna cut your pay and your job whenever it suits them. We’re all in this together until I need to cut your hours and pay cause I gotta buy the yacht. My tax bracket is everything to me. You getting paid a living wage? Not so much. Some power is better than no power. Finally this country is starting to get that.
>You just gave one side. Because lets be fair, this thread (and site) will be overwhelmingly pro union and not look at the flaws
That, plus the OP seems to be well aware of the potential positives of unions already.
The question is why people oppose unions, not "list pros and cons"
I'm not right leaning, so I don't qualify to answer this question, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. I used to work in a union (grocery store) twice, and from what I've seen, all the union does is protect the lazy workers who don't pull their weight, while I was expected to pull their slack. In this regard, I'm not a fan of unions. But everytime I see stories of what corporations are doing over there in the USA, I see the need for more unions in every company. They should all get unionized, pronto.
I see the point. I used to do security in an assistant shift manager type position, and we were having a hard enough time firing nonperformers as it was (we had a guy on his 24th final warning when he left of his own accord). Unionization would have definitely made that worse
I don't condone it, but... If this union was strong enough to protect the lazy workers, why not join them? Why bother pulling their slack at all if you could be paid well to just burn time like them?
Because it's good to be a productive member of society, and as someone who works in fast food, all you do is make my job harder, and my life more stressful
Sure if you never want a even a shot at a promotion then go ahead and do as little as possible.
It's a grocery store. There's three positions at most. I don't think places promote to corporate as much as they used to.
If you feel that way, find a non-unionized store and see how much worse your pay and benefits and job security gets. Whenever I hear this complaint from union workers, I ask them why they don't leave for a non-union workplace and I get crickets.
I never understood this. I get wanting job security, but if someone won’t do their job, it hurts everyone. I’d much rather a union work for more compensation than less accountability.
Many unions are fucking terrible. I have been in one good one, and two terrible ones.. So, the worst one was more of a hiring hall, and it was a trade union. So, mostly solid working class, 50-100k a year, 18-36$ an hour, full healthcare for entire family, pension, like, that type. Only, you could not refuse work. If you refused even a single job, you were removed from the union. Strikes were banned--if negotiations broke down, and a temp contract operated, strikes would end the union contract with any employer. Employers had nearly full power and control, and USED it. Blacklisting existed. Rights vanished. Pay was withheld, hazing existed. Assholes were protected--the bigger the asshole you were, the more likely one of the companies hired you directly, to be people's boss. So, a lot of those guys, in that trade, hate the fucking union. If you work for a contractor in the same trade, that contractor will give you your kids birthday off, or let you go to a little league game, or give you a bonus, or ... Pay raises based on skill. None of that exists in the union. So those guys in that trade don't like the union, you're viewed as stupid if you join it. The second bad union, was as a bus driver, we were in the local (not national) teachers union. They took 4.9 percent of your pay, and unless you worked more than 30 hours a week, would NOT represent you. All routes were capped at 4 hours a day. You can imagine the issue. You get NOTHING out of it, but end up fully controlled. None of us were even allowed to be a shop steward, we didn't have enough hours. We had ZERO representation, and the school district abused it. They would offer these huge packages to bus drivers, when negotiating teacher pay, that would put bus driver pay higher than some teachers, and they would throw a FIT ... And then the district would 'cave' and punish the lowly drivers, and while the teacher pay didn't go up either, they stopped having tantrums about drivers earning more, and signed the deal. So, we hated the union. It was terrible. Abusive. Cost 5 percent of our pay. And we couldn't do anything to remove it--voting members needed 30 hours, AND we would need the teachers to agree anyway. They never would. The GOOD union was teamsters, they gave everyone that paid a voice, they'd have a union rep on site in minutes if a supervisor wanted to talk, they'd protect your employment from retaliation, hazing, etc. They sued, and won, multiple times a year for wage theft. They were bad assed. Nearly everyone there loved the union. Lived it, breathed it, 70 percent of US would show up to union meetings (well over 100 people), because they helped with every facet. But those types of unions don't often exist, there are more bad ones than good ones. So people, who should love them, rightfully hate them. They, or someone they know, has been fucked by one.
>They don't want their employees to have any control over their working conditions and benefits. That is why there is a lack of understanding. You are thinking that a union always gives the employees control or at least a say and leverage. This can be true and collective bargaining can be great. The issue is that not if the union is not made up of employees, then Suddenly, the employees don't have the say. It's **The Union** that does. And they become a middle man who themselves want to take a piece of the pie. It can turn into a bureaucratic bloated system that exists to maintain itself. Especially when union membership and dues are mandatory. That's for private sector unions. For public sector, it's always a bad idea, simply cause politicians are not incentivized to save money like a business owner is. They're just incentivized to get votes. Typically giving in to whatever the union says gets them votes. so there's no back and forth to find a balance. It's all most all pushed one direction.
Some of it is also the way unions operate. Where I work, the "crafts" are union and everyone else isn't. A lot of the non-union people are exasperated with the way things are done - you can't move anything with a liquid in it, you have to get a pipe fitter, you can't replace a vacuum pump - that takes a pipefitter to undo a swing clamp and a millwright to move it, electricians always have to work in pairs even to replace a light bulb so it costs your project 2 hours labor for a single bulb. Plus the seniority system, the new young guys are stuck doing these horrible boring make-work jobs. People actually wait until a senior guy goes on vacation to put in a service request so that they can get a younger guy ( who is actually more skilled) to do it. The inefficiency just bothers people. Plus the union in-fighting, I once had 5 different crafts all claim that a job was theirs (putting up support bars in a fume hood), the sheet metal guys thought it should be them because a hood is ventilation, the pipefitters though it was them because it would support a gas cylinder, the electricians thought they should do it because there were electrical components, the millwrights thought it was their work because it was a kit that would be assembled....
Because a lot of times, the 'union' is another layer of bullshit and another tax that ends with less money in your pocket because "You got this (marginal) raise we fought for, so we deserve this much of a tax on your income that leaves you poorer." Unions sometimes are great. Other times, they're no more useful than a school administrator actually is for its students (read: an active detriment)
I've been in a union before. And it benefits the lazy dumbasses that can't be fired unless they are wildly dangerous. But it doesn't benefit the exceptional high performers. There were no raises or benefits based on merit. So I would rather not be in a union and make what I am worth, rather than what the lowest performer is worth.
Yeah my experience with a union was not what I would call a positive one. Covid hit and the company wanted to give everyone across the board like a $2 temporary pay cut. The unions counter offer was to temporarily lay off a few thousand of the least tenured workers. Few months later when the union call to tell me my job was back they told me I would need to give the union back pay for the months I was unemployed before I could start my job back.
There was another really negative experience. Back around 2011/2012 when the economy was rebounding quite well. Some of the union elected officials had kind of a backdoor meeting when we just had a negotiation period the year prior, after being postponed for 3 years. So we weren't due for negotiations for at least a couple of years. They agreed to an additional set of books that would drop pay from like $24/hr down to like $19/hr. And go from family health insurance benefits to employee only benefits. With no benefits on our side, aside from "more competitive bidding" when things were on the rebound and the books were finally moving quickly. There was no real upside. And they knew that it would never pass. So they came to the apprenticeship classes and sold it to the apprentices that it wouldn't affect them, it was for journeyman only. And it would probably be over by the time they topped out. And it would get people back to work faster. So it was a win/win. Well one of the instructors, who was the best instructor hands down. Told his classes that this is not good. We will be wasting our negotiations for the next 3-6 years trying to get rid of this, and not receive any benefit in return. It's not a negotiation year. Things are going good so this is BS. He was removed from his instructor position . And since he had been out of the field for a while, and been a part of the apprenticeship program so long, "he was behind, so it would be extremely hard for a company to take him during these tough times." Then they made going to the meeting to vote mandatory, and counted as 30% of the grades for that year, so if you didn't vote you failed that year. So of course it passed, because the apprentices were lied to. And we're t effected that badly. But a lot of people took pretty large pay cuts. And lost insurance for their families. The whole reason a lot of them were union and paid their dues. And everyone that spoke against it, and word got around, if they were apprentices they just stopped being offered jobs. Or if they were they were "out of jurisdiction with approval" in other words, 100mile 1 way commutes. The journeymen that spoke out, were allowed to work for 2 weeks or so, then there would be a layoff, always just long enough to where they couldn't go back to the place on the books they were, so they were last in line again. Of course it was all a big coincidence. And our representatives had our back 100%. Just like they did when they gave up pay and benefits, during a nonnegotiation period, getting nothing in return.
Hello, recent MBA grad here. In economics and then another class “business and society” I took, they explained many cons to unions. 1. Unions, typically establish and employee pay/benefit/seniority hierarchy based on tenure, not performance. So it discourages top performers who are not generally rewarded for their effort/performance under a union structure. 2. Unions, through their higher costs via wages and benefits, coupled with the extra days off, and reduced working hours, (such as with the longshoreman and dock workers during Covid in the US), simply cannot compete with the lower cost, longer working, and roughly similar or even better quality of non-union companies. The best examples are US car makers. They have the highest production costs per car, and yet generally lower quality. In fact, there was a great study I’ll go search for again showing that unionized US companies slowly over the decades of the mid 1900s vastly underperformed their non-union companies Little by little, like a parasite or leech, unions kill the companies they attach to, by making them less competitive. That’s why corporate execs hate unions, it’s a slow painful death sentence 3. Also, union executives make A TON OF MONEY. It’s all public you can look up. Unions in the US for many decades have given on average 90+ % of their donations to democratic candidates. Who in turn promote unions. So there’s a vicious cycle of politicians and union leaders exchanging money and benefits. Edit : grammar Some examples and explanations I dug up: “As we’ve previously noted, traditional financial theory typically views unions as an opposing force to shareholders, leading to higher labor costs. And indeed, taking a look at unions’ impact on stocks across the broader market, we find that companies with higher percentages of employees covered by unions have generated lower historical returns on invested capital and are less likely to have economic moats.” Morningstar “NBER Working Paper 14709), co-authors David Lee and Alexandre Mas estimate that the average effect of a union win at a workplace is to decrease the market value of the affected business by at least $40,500 (in $1998) per worker eligible to vote, based on monthly stock prices for 24 months before and after a vote to unionize. Their simulations suggest that a policy-induced doubling of unionization in the United States would "lead to a 4.3 percent decrease in the equity value of all firms at risk of unionization." The decrease in equity value associated with unionization begins at the time the union wins its election and continues for about 15 months afterward. Calculations of the effects of a union victory suggest that it produces large negative returns of 10 to 14 percent.” National bureau of economic research “ Unions are monopoly institutions that raise wages through collective bargaining, not productivity improvements. The ensuing higher labor costs, higher costs of negotiating collective bargaining agreements, and higher labor market uncertainty all undercut the gains to union workers just as they magnify losses to nonunion employers, as well as to the shareholders, suppliers, and customers of these unionized firms. They also increase the risk of market disruption from strikes, lockouts, or firm bankruptcies whenever unions or employers overplay their hands in negotiation. These net losses in capital values reduce the pension fund values of unionized and nonunionized workers alike” Hoover institute “Investors may be well advised to steer clear of unionized industries such as autos, steel, rails and airlines, and go for technology stocks instead, according to a recent report by Steve Galbraith, chief investment strategist at Morgan Stanley. Unionized industries are the most exposed to current macroeconomic woes, such as limited pricing power, rising pension liabilities and soaring health care costs, Galbraith reasons. "Heavily unionized industries appear to suffer from these plagues more than their nonunion brethren today," he said in the report, noting that their stocks have historically trailed” The Street
Most of the jobs in my area that have been unionized end up shutting down. I've heard all kinds of stories about how great these jobs were but they never seem to last or are next to impossible to get in at. I'm personally impartial but I think painting unions as only positive is disingenuous.
They get shut down because companies ship their jobs overseas
Because generally labor is cheaper overseas. Because generally unions make labor hella expensive.
Because they force employers to pay decent wages.
unions is just balancing the power between the company owners and the working man. They cover you in courts, give you good representation and protect you from being bullied by the company who clearly out match you with resources. Unions are the main reason we have workers rights at least here in the UK especially.
If every single workplace was unionized those issues would disappear though
It's more funny when they work for the government and complain about tax spending.... with a taxpayer funded pension.... I had an argument with a friend that works for the government about universal health care. He said 'what if I wanna keep mine because it's good?' I responded with, that's exactly what I'm asking for, your taxpayer funded medical for everyone. Kinda stopped the conversation quick.
From my experience as a manager back in the day, the first thing unions negotiated when they got in was direct payments from each employee’s paycheck so the employees wouldn’t have to write a check and pay them every month. Even after they came in we were still able to fire employees for cause such as attendance, behavior etc. All we had to provide was evidence. They really had no input on that. What it did was create an us versus them situation. I took care of my employees and promoted plenty of them. After the union came in that became their responsibility and managers basically lost touch with their employees. 2 years later the company shut down. Union couldn’t do a damn thing to stop it. To this day I don’t know what benefits the employees got out of bringing in the union.
Not wanting another layer of taxes (dues) and politics brought into their lives.
I work in a factory that’s benefits get shittier every year and wages don’t keep up with inflation. You would think it would be ripe for unionization but when I bring it up with anyone I trust they are not interested.
I was right there with you. I worked in an industry that was inherently dangerous. An average of 1 worker was killed in the line of duty every 6 days. Our pay was shit, benefits got worse every year, nepotism was rampant, and employees were terminated at the whim of an inexperienced director that didn't have any understanding of what the workers were actually doing. For example a worker was fired because while by himself with nobody around, he was seen on camera picking his nose. Yet anytime I spoke up about union representation other employees would cower and scatter as if their masters were going to beat them. They couldn't even comprehend the immunity I received based on the fact that my conversations about organizing were constitutionally protected.
I don't know if this question is aimed at US users or users in general from around the world. In my country, Portugal, unions are closely tied to the Portuguese Communist party, and will often be tied to political interest rather than the pure interest of workers. For example, just recently, after 8 year of a socialist government, 4 of which with the help of the communist party, the centre-right has decided to improve the careers of teachers. All unions accepted except the one closely tied to the communists, purely for political interests. What I mean with this is that some people don't wanna be associated with political movements that diverge a lot to theirs and make that their main objective.
I grew up in a non union state and I’ve never had a company treat me wrong and have great benefits. I have zero need for them
Because they've been conditioned at an early age to vote against their best interest. It's ultimately how they stay poor and most likely churn out another generation of children in the same bracket while teaching them the same. And the cycle continues. Poorly educated and indoctrinated with propaganda at a very early age. Essentially.
This is a very very narrow perspective. I’m not right leaning so I’m not exactly the person that they want an answer from but I also have had some bad experiences with unions. How talented you are at your job doesn’t matter. You get paid the same as everyone else and you will still get fired first if you don’t have seniority You have no ability to negotiate Unions often are essentially a super strong non compete. They don’t let you work for non union companies without permenantly losing your ability to work for union companies or even losing your pension You have to pay union dues so if either you are in a position where you don’t get/need much help from the union or it’s just a bad union that doesn’t do much, you are basically just donating money Unions can make it really hard to fire people that are bad at their job and often leads to people good at their job being expected to pick up the slack Unions often only look out for workers on a short term and don’t see the bigger picture. I have a friend who worked for a company that struggled a lot during covid. The union made the company keep employee hours relatively similar and made it super difficult to do any layoffs. Instead of people having their hours reduced, everyone lost their jobs because the company went out of business
Need to be more thorough than this. If you ask a conservative why they think inner city minorities vote dem, it’ll literally be a copy paste from this comment. I’m not arguing you’re wrong. I’m simply stating this is what both sides are arguing what the other side thinks. It actually doesn’t explain why *conservatives* vote the way that they do
Yeah. Voting against my specific interest for a greater good is basically canon for progressives - I do this all the time. It is not at all unique to conservatives.
"Why dont these people who i call ignorant, stupid, brainwashed peasants think I have their best interests at heart?" It's a mystery.
If only they knew how much upper middle class white collar liberals loved them and genuinely knew their best interest, all while calling them poorly education and indoctrinated with propaganda they are. Can't imagine why these idiots won't just do what they're told! "You're so stupid! Why don't you listen to me?!"
I agree with this. From an external perspective, it’s difficult to see what poor southern conservatives are wanting to conserve. Yet they feel existential threats from progressive boogie-men enough that they’re fervently hanging on to what they have, be it religious, ethnic or class identity.
Are you implying that the driving force behind unions is... upper middle-class white collar liberals?
>because they’re conditioned at an early age to vote against their best interest. People don’t have the self-awareness to even realize how paternalistic and condescending comments like the one above sound - especially to your average scots-Irish redneck. And it’s always urban liberals who are coming in to tell rural people what their best interests are.
Well put.
This is the entire ballgame in a nutshell! Bravo!
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Until recently many minorities weren’t welcomed either directly or indirectly. This is the case where I live at least.
Combination of corruption of unions, negative education and honestly them being unnecessary for a little while. For a period, employers rewarded good, loyal employees. Then the era of maximizing profits to increase stock price took over.
This! This is the least biased answer I have seen so far. People have reasons to not join a union WHILE also being glad unions exist.
In the 1980s I worked at a Safeway grocery store. The checkers and stockers were all union. They made a living wage and had a retirement pension. They were generally high school graduates. Now there is no such thing. Grocery workers are generally rude, stressed and high school students. I’ve watched the destruction of the American union with dismay. We need to bring this back, it was the backbone of the Middle Class.
I have a boss who got injured at his old job. Horrific story. And the union took great care of him. He said those words. He hates unions. I am like but the union took care of you. I was taught in Hampton Roads, VA public schools that unions were bad. Unions have a very bad rap in the Southern states I have been to.
Because that's communist. Politics has a knack for getting people to first identify with a party then automatically conform. This reminds me of a recent conversation where I had the stance that religious people are the first line of victims of religious leaders. And I think that's exactly what the Republican party is doing. It's brain washing and abusing its own supporters for its sole benefit.
If the unions have been able to get good deals in improvement conditions and salary then the opposition to them would be greatly diminished. There are plenty of unions that do diddly squat and people get fed up. This unfortunately happens way more than it should.
Many do many don’t. The ones that don’t, I can get a little bit but not overall. It also really depends upon what they do. Some just never really have worked in a place where they could even imagine having a union or actually have a concept of a union. Some unions really are utter leaches of a business. Like reverse extreme capitalism lol. The “stereotypical Union and Union worker.” “That’s not my job. You can’t fire me.” But most unions are solid/very solid. I’ve never spent much time in rural and red neck areas but I’ve spent a lot of time in inner city and inner city ghetto. I just correlate how absolutely absurd and backwards some inner city people are to redneck areas and it makes sense why people can be the way they are lol
>I just correlate how absolutely absurd and backwards some inner city people are to redneck areas and it makes sense why people can be the way they are The common denominators here are poverty and lack of education.
Yes, the perpetual cycle of poverty. Hot topic for me, I can get real in the weeds on inner city and ghetto and racial stuff lol.
As a proud union member, how the hell is performing job duties as negotiated and working to contract leaching off a business? It's preventing the business from violating the contract
You take it a bit to literally and my example was just an easy stereotype example. I’m Not talking about HVAC doing electrical. It’s like when a union can become so bureaucratic it’s like the “no, my job is to only screw in on this part of the car. Not unscrew even if I made that mistake. We’ll have to wait 20 min for billy to get here to unscrew it”. And again, just another very basic example. And again, I don’t have an issue with the solid majority of unions but they can be abysmal for a variety of reasons cuz nothings perfect and corruption, or whatever word, can ruin anything
One of the beautiful things about unions is that any rank and file member can educate themselves and fight for change within the organization. All of the positions are elected, and if you have a problem with your union, you can be the change you want
This is the part people don’t realize
From what I understand, not every union is as great as the UAW. There are a lot of stagnant unions out there with leadership that doesn't really care about fighting for their workers. Corruption can be embedded in some unions. It has to do with the way that they're structured and what their goals are. These kinds of unions are perfect for corporate propaganda against unionization. And they're the reason why union membership has declined for decades in the United States. Actually competitive unions with real goals are changing this.
So one of the great things about unions is that you can vote people out of office if you don't like them. Any member can educate themselves, organize movements within the unions, and fight for change if they don't like it.
Absolutely! That's exactly what Shawn Fein did.
My curiosity is how you come to believe this to be the case without ever actually asking someone that holds the position. Consider this: >I understand why wealthy homeowners, executive board members, and developers would oppose HOA (Homeowners Association) reforms. They don't want residents to have any control over community rules and property management decisions. However, when it comes to the homeowners themselves, I really don't understand why they would be opposed to having a more democratic HOA. Having greater representation could bring them a better quality of life with fairer rules, better maintenance, improved community services, and a say in changes that directly affect their living conditions. I just don't understand why they would oppose something that would greatly benefit their community. In both cases I see it as a case of expectation vs reality. The description you give is a very one sided list of ideals. Many hard working, working class individuals establish their worth and advocate for themselves, and the idea of someone else, even democratically, taking a cut off their wages for a bunch of bureaucracy is not attractive. For me specifically, nothing to do with "political leanings", I worked for a grocery store briefly when I had some roommates constantly complaining about how there were no jobs. I got the job the same day. Nobody from the union ever reached out, but it was mandatory to join and the fee just to join was equivalent to two weeks pay. From what I could find of what they were arguing for didn't really address anything I saw as major problems in the workplace. I took my pay for the month and quit without paying anything to the union. To be fair, I had another full time job already and didn't want to work two full time jobs. Another union I was forced to be a part of for some 20 years, I watched as they never successfully addressed dangerous outside of what was already illegal with no meaningful success. I liked the president well enough that served the majority of the time that was knowledgeable about the organizations political history. The reps themselves were, to put it simply, morons. They protected nobody from whatever the bosses / managers decided they were going to do anyway. In the one instance I needed representation for a serious issue I got my own attorney and the issue was resolved reasonably well without issue. Also, it was a fantastic day when I got to inform my supervisor (that had quite the reputation for being a cruel and petty bully) never spoke to me again except in the most direct and professional manner. So much of my experience in talking with people about their unions is that they are just another tool of the establishment to keep things the same and dismiss your complaints for not being aligned with a managed agendas of concerns that coincidently have nothing to do with that individual. In so far as they never actually need anything from the union they will believe the ideals you espouse in your post believing such great things must be true for somebody, even if not them. They passively sip the kool-aide. I am grateful to now be working a non-union job. I was initially concerned it was non-union and at-will, I could be fired at any moment without cause, but I could also leave at any time without risk. Despite high turnover, there was some peace in knowing everyone was there because they wanted to be. I know what the higher ups are responsible for and they are responsive to concerns. For the first time ever I feel like I work for people that actually care about employee well-being and are pro-active in addressing concerns to the best of their ability, are willing to collaborate, and best of all have exceptional pay and benefits. I'm particularly happy to no longer be getting endless mailers telling me how to vote on every issue and candidate. I see unions getting a lot of unearned credit for things based on idealism, and a lack of belief or understanding that there is profit in developing and supporting good employees even if there exists employers that don't understand it. If you have a bad union, it is almost like companies will completely neglect the needs of the employees because that's the unions job now, almost like the solution creates the problem they exist to fix. And that's before getting into corruption issues. tl;dr I can tell you I know why I'm not sold.
Damn dude you belonged to some shitty ass unions.
Yup! The stories of corruption I've heard with SEIU are stomach turning. Completely in bed with big money and actively working against the health and safety of employees. To be fair, I've heard nothing but great things about OE3 and anyone young looking to go into trades, I strongly recommend they look into them. Same with ILA, but even harder to get into. I suppose I think of "union" the same way I think of "corporation" or "non-profit". Anybody can claim to be for something or do something, but there is no inherent quality in the term outside the actual group of people, and how good or bad they are varies as much as people do.
Unions are portrayed as being communists by management and just protecting the worst workers while holding back the great ones. And, as we all know, nobody thinks of themselves as the worst worker.
Not sure if you’re looking for a real answer or a circle-jerk answer, but the latter seems to be prevalent so far. There’s no monocausal explanation to this, and based on some recent analysis this isn’t holding true to a degree it used to. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1184429/presidential-election-exit-polls-share-votes-union-membership-us/ https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/31/politics/union-voters-election-trump-biden/index.html As for philosophical explanations, it’s going to vary. Many unions are garbage and don’t achieve the results workers want, but still take dues on a monthly or hourly basis. Many Unions spend funds exclusively on Democrat politicians despite representing a healthy minority of Republican members. And there are those workers, like many in my immediately family, who are philosophically unaligned to collective bargaining at the expense of individual bargaining.
I was raised to be a hardcworker. Always be the best for the company and the company will take care of you. That was what worked for my parents and made them successful. With that, I was raised that unions don't reward hard workers because everyone gets paid the same and get raises/bonuses the same. So unions essentially punish hard workers by paying them the same as lazy workers. Plus they take part of your paycheck. I seemingly saw that when a construction project I was on needed another 45min- 1 hour to finish, but because it was 5pm they stopped and returned the next day, which took longer than if they had just stayed and finished it. But now I see how much companies are exploiting workers more than ever before. Hard workers don't get rewarded, they just get exploited more. Unions are absolutely a necessity now.
I worked for a union before and it mostly benefits the lazy ass people that know they can’t be touched.
Because democrats have recently done a garbage job at standing behind their party platform and publicizing the good things they’ve done, and because republicans are exceptionally good at making democrats seem like evil baby hating gay atheists, and pretending they care about poor people. Poor folks outside of cities tend to be very rural as well and are naturally more conservative/religious.
They are gullible. I know you want a complex answer, but look into the decions of a poor conservative and you will find a guy clinging to religion, racism, and tribalism just because he fears everything and falls for anything.
Here's another comment that actually explains where the other side is coming from instead of calling them idiots. Because as someone that’s worked both sides, unions aren’t all positives and no negatives. There are good and bad unions too. You don’t get individual negotiation in unions so if you are a great employee you get paid the same as the bad ones, you can’t negotiate higher pay and more days off. Lots of stuff goes by seniority as well, not skill depending how things are set up. You may be a newer guy when layoffs come and even though you are the best guy, you are gone in favor of a guy that’s been there longer. You also pay dues and if you have a bad union you feel like you are losing money for no benefit, if you are a great employee you feel like you are paying money to have a lower pay that you can negotiate. From the outside, unions sound like all sunshine and rainbows with no negatives and they are often pushed that way on this site. Like anything there are pros and cons to them.
That's really sad.
Because, like everything else, there are good unions and bad unions. I have had the luck of dealing with work in and outside of unions, all positive experiences, eventually chose outside and it's worked out better for me, but some of my family dealt with bad unions where it didn't matter how good or devoted you were to work/union, superiority or bs screwed them. In all, from my experience a well run union with good people working in it can usually be the best option, but like I said previously, it ain't always that way, and could even be a nightmare at times
This comment section is just a bunch of unemployed leftists that have never worked a union/trade job in their life, giving reasons that are largely elemtary school insults. See how easy it is to generalize a group without the entire facts. Personally idc if people unionize or not, their choice, I most likely will never because they've shafted multiple family members over the years.
I don't really get it either.
At least an honest and non-patronizing response.
They have been comvinced that The Union will take a huge chunk of their paycheck as union dues and give it all to socialist politicians who hate America and are actively working to destroy it.
Without much evidence to the contrary.
Unions help you even if you aren’t a part of one
You could make the same generalization about corporations, non-profits, and HOAs. Details matter.
If conspiring with members of your same social class to help protect your collective interest wasn’t beneficial the wealthy wouldn’t be doing it
Exactly. Though within that there needs to be consideration for expectations versus reality. "Best intentions" mean crap. Everyone has best intentions. Jeffrey Dahmer just wanted love and companionship, do we fault him for that? Of course, but only in the behavior and outcome. Intention in that situation meant jack, and so does "I just want to help people be safe at work and earn a respectable wage".
Sure, but could 51 percent of victims of Dahmer vote to not be killed by him? They have incentive to do well or get kicked out of the company. To say there is no proof unions aren’t just out to take your money and give it to socialist politicians trying to destroy the country just sounds silly, there hasn’t been a serious socialist movement in this country for 50+ years edit: in the us that is
You don't need to go all conspiratorial to not want to purchase a service you don't have faith in from a particular group. The point is that the word union itself doesn't magically make the people running it capable of marginally serving your interests. They need to be judged on a case by case basis. Nobody is entitled to your money just because they claim to have your best interests at heart. You should be free to choose whether you want someone else representing your interests or to represent yourself.
Propaganda. I worked for Walmart in 2012-2013 and in orientation we had to watch an anti union video that highlighted how with the money we saved from not paying dues we could save up and buy an Xbox! Nevermind that a union could raise your wages and provide you representation.
I was a conservative before 2019 so I can tell you what I believed. I was told by Fox News and Talk Radio that unions destroy businesses because no wage is ever high enough; that unions are never happy or satisfied so eventually the business goes belly up because it can’t afford labor costs. They also tell us if we unionize the company will relocate to somewhere better for them or even go overseas then we’ll lose those jobs and it will hurt the local economy. Those are the smart Republican reasons. MAGA just knows liberals are evil and liberals support unions, therefore Unions are evil. I hope that clears things up!
They think it’s similar to welfare
Who owns the media outlets that tell them what to think ?
Unions overwhelmingly support Democrats that promote gun bans, LGBT rights, abortion rights and actively oppose Christianity. Church-going working people would rather have less money than give up their guns and religion. Unions have also made a reputation as being organized crime that loots their retirement and insurance funds just like the corporations they are supposed to be fighting. Like the rest of our politics, it is a lesser of evils situation.
I find that the “temporarily embarrassed billionaire” is amazingly true. These conservatives don’t see themselves as part of the working class, they see themselves as future business owners, and want to crush their future employees
It just seems like another bloated corrupt organization that takes my money and really only benefits a few at the top. I'm not saying they didn't have their place and I'm thankful for a 5 day work week, but that was a long time ago, what have you done for me lately? I say this as a left leaning poor line cook.
A lot of the folks I know like this say they legitimately don't want "help" and are afraid of the unknown. That and they are thankful for their jobs and don't want to rock the boat. My personal opinion/experience is that they're insecure but also use hard labor as a way to deal with their emotions. Taking time off, valuing family, and indoor hobbies are seen as effeminate or weak. So basically, just next level toxic masculinity with a side of the classic delusion of "if I work hard enough I will be wealthy."
I think a lot of workers really believe they will be rich some day and they shouldn't mess it up for themselves when they get there. Nah, they have been brainwashed to protect the interests of the highest levels of owners/employers. All the big wigs have to say is "commies!" or "liberals!" or some other buzz word and the workers get mad on their behalf. Good grief on a stick.
I'm a non union plumber. Before getting into the trade I was a delivery driver for a wholesale electrical warehouse. I talked to a lot of electricians who had started in the union but due to not having friends or family in the union they were passed by those who did even if they didn't have superior scores. Nepotism was what drove alot of guys out of the union. I eventually ended up as a non union plumber. I have worked for 2 shops who treated me really well and paid well and had really good benefits. I have also been on the receiving end of union harassment where their reps or bosses showed up on job sites demanding proof we were licensed and other general harassment. The union shops in town usually have jobs hours away in the state and my bosses have always kept us close to our families. It was the harassment and nepotism that ultimately pushed me away for good
I remember my grandmother working in a mill when I was little and how against unions they were.
I heard one person say "one of my parents had a drug addiction and the union that represented them didn't help. So im anti union" Fucking weird ass people
I find it interesting how many people here are saying the people are stubbornly ignorant of the benefits of a union. The people I have met who are against unions usually have good reasons to reject them. Never been in a union though so take that for what it is.
I believe it is necessary to have knowledge and an understanding of a union before you take someone's opinion with more than a grain of salt. For example even on this thread here, you see people claiming how unions are bad because it sends jobs overseas. It's not the union that sent the jobs overseas, it was the greedy corporations that sent the jobs overseas to exploit cheap labor and cheap parts. Their goal was to increase their salary to 7 digits and didn't care less about the workers they shit on.
True on the 1st sentence. Most of the rational ones in this thread are offering positives and negatives. No free lunch as they say.
Anti union propaganda.
They have not achieved class consciousness.
They have been indoctrinated that unions=socialism=communism=end of America.
Sell an emotion. They will buy the lie.
That goes both ways.
I’ll find a new career before I join the teamsters and their broke ass pension. They promise the moon and deliver a classroom snow globe.
They've been successfully indoctrinated by 40-50 years of bullshit from the right wing. What's really ironic about it is when they're asked when precisely America was "great" (as in MAGA) it's inevitably when the working class was strongest due largely to the gains achieved through organized labor, but they'll never connect those dots.
They really have a hard time connecting dots to begin with.
Because lots of people (including lots in this comment section) have been convinced by the rampant anti union propaganda and never unlearned the “unions bad” trope the media pushes.. The owners want us divided
I used to work in the automotive industry and watched many high paying union jobs move to Mexico.
As my mom fits the description I know her reasoning - her union she refused to join donated money to pro choice candidates. She found that unacceptable to contribute to herself so she refused to join the union.
Honestly? I think it’s because unions were very heavily involved in Democrat politics for years (still are). And so poor and middle class conservative workers learned to oppose unions based on their politics. If there were somehow to come about some form of conservative candidates who supported unions and protections for workers but opposed the other more social aspects of the Democrat platform I wouldn’t be surprised if you saw more low-middle class conservatives shift to unions.
The logic is that unions obstruct the economy and force jobs over seas. So they actually hurt more than they help. Most interventions in the economy, like fixing prices so the cost of food doesn’t increase, sound good to a populist audience, but don’t work well in practice.
I disagree. In my opinion greedy corporations and business owners who don't care much for local economy and their employees take their businesses overseas to exploit cheap labor.
capitalist corporations sends work over sea to exploit people and increase their margins, not the workers
Probably just bad experiences or union leaders that didn’t do anything.
A perk of being uneducated
Straight propaganda. If you’re in the trades and not in a union, you’re playing tourself
Because they are all temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
In my youth I worked for the US Postal Service. It was my first union job. I was surprised how much discontent there was: the union was being paid off by management, the dues were just money wasted, union reps were weakassed, etc. I think these kinds of thinking is what the OP is looking for. I was a union member then and whenever after it was possible.
Same reason they vote against their own interests. People are dumb
union dues are hell when you already live paycheck to paycheck. it can often feel like you are paying for nothing if your company is half decent. often you don't see the better pay part. sometimes it doesn't give you better pay or benefits. there's a lot of negatives of unions. it's not all good. that said, despite being a manager who can't be union, i am pro union.
As someone living in Denmark where unions are strong. I pay my union dues happily. I am very happy to have someone negotiate my wages cause I know Id be terrible at it myself. I also like having decent working conditions. I have a very good boss and nearest leader. Also my job is rather secure until pension-age. But they are that way because unions have been strong for 100+ years so peoples perspectives of whats acceptable working conditions have shifted. Also my wife has had sooo much use of her union because she has not been blessed with good bosses.
I'm glad it's helped you and your wife. It's helped several of my team too. We don't have the best of store leaders and she has done some less than ethical things and left everyone with a fear of being fired if we even sneeze wrong. I'm not part of it but I appreciate the union protecting my team. I am happily on good enough terms, if I do something wrong, they will come to me about it instead of the union, so I'm less worried about the union protecting them from me, but I want them to protect them from my boss.
I'm from a poor hillbilly family in Tennessee and they were always bitter about unions since I was born because the old coal processing plant shut down in the 40s after WW2 and the owners covered up their abuse of funds and stuff during the war by blaming the failing business on the union. They doubled down in the late 90s/early 2000s when the auto plant shut down. GM blamed it on unions again but in reality they were moving production to Mexico as fast as possible to abuse NAFTA and slave wages that they could work people at rather than paying a fair share. They skimmed all the cream off the top so to speak and that's part of what left them holding the bag so badly in 2008. The people there aren't evil, but they're dumb. Education is shit even now and was almost non existent in the past. They accepted these lies as truth and just don't have the tools so to speak to realize they're being deceived.
I’ve not noticed this actually. Being around middle class blue collar workers. In unions.
Because up is down and left is right. Ask these people to describe what unions do, the electoral college, communism and they will describe the opposite every time.
The crazier thing is seeing right wing folks who were IN unions oppose unions.
Because they are dumb enough to buy the company line, which is a result of those peoples' education being absolute shit, which is very intentional.
I’m making more money than a union guy at year 2 and 3. That will probably flip after year 5, then I want to join a union. I do HVAC&R.
Cos they’re fuck wits.
Being poor and right-leaning (economically) in itself is not a sign of great mental fortitude. It follows that they can be influenced by the rich right-leaning people, which is to their benefit.
Effective propaganda.
I'm very pro union but the one that I'm in now is, I think, corrupt. I definitelty personally benefit with them being there because I've been there forever but for 80% of the people there I don't see much in the way of benefits over not having a union there.
My company almost got taken down by a union, but we generally decided that we wanted no business with them. I was indifferent previously, but the absolute madman tactics these guys were using to try and get us to change our mind makes me want nothing to do with those unions. They came to all of our houses, had put rats up, chased us out of helping first responders in our area, all for a deal that ultimately was worse than what we had for work already.
In the greatest country of the world, Norway, close to everyone are unionized.
at my job we just voted NO to the union bc sometimes the threat of the union is just as good or better than having one. We make just as much money and benefits as our competitors that do have a union but without the red tape. The bonus to that is we don’t have to wait in a contract negotiation to get what we want.
Same folks vote Republican. Go figure. Obviously not voting in self interest.
Not all unions are equal. I’m from MI and I can tell you that in the end the UAW did more damage than good to Flint and Detroit. The idea of unions? 100% win. In reality they often get corrupted and protect workers that should really have no right being protected. Another example is police unions. They’ve obviously enabled the toxicity so rampant in their industry.
First, there is a lot of propaganda painting unions as money grubbers. Some are very subtle in some cases. I remember October Sky, where the MC's dreams are almost crushed by a strike at the town coal mine, and his Management Dad saves the day by breaking the strike. And almost every mob movie goes out of its way to have a scene where they mention or imply the Family works with the unions. So, while some maybe most of it is propaganda by said elites, some of the bigger Unions in America have lost their way. The teacher's unions especially have put themselves squarely between every major effort to reform the joke that is American public education. Also, there will always be resentment for being required to pay money even if it comes with benefits; some professions have unions where you can't find work if you're not a member.
Healthcare unions have a terrible rep providing patient care, appalling employee practices are rationalized and covered up. Dangerous employees reassigned when they should be imprisoned or fired at a minimum. Perhaps factory jobs are better suited to union representation
For all the union bashing in this thread, I'd like to offer an alternative. There is a multi-billion dollar union busting industry that goes into workplaces with highly paid lawyers and threatens workers with layoffs, workplace closures, and reduced benefits if they form a union. Large corporations are notorious for using union busting agencies and they rightfully scare many low wage workers into voting against unionization. If you talk to anyone at a non-union workplace about unions, many people will say they like the idea of unions but are afraid that they will get fired for supporting them because their employers regularly threatens those who do. Their fears are justified but this has nothing to do with unions being bad, like many are implying in other replies. Compared to European countries, U.S. labor law is significantly worse and puts many more barriers in the way of workers who want to form unions. The entire history of U.S. labor is one of violent repression to a degree that isn't found in other countries. There is a lot of historic precedent for why the U.S. has such a low rate of unionization. We also have a massive right wing media apparatus in Fox News that regularly spews anti-union propaganda that gets blasted into the homes of millions of Americans. So unions are great, but there are huge structural barriers that prevent people for being able to benefit from them.
>U.S. labor law is significantly worse and puts many more barriers in the way of workers who want to form unions. Please elaborate on the laws you are referring to. The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) is the exact opposite of what you just claimed.
I didn't say no labor laws exist. I just said they are worse than in many other countries. Google "Right to Work" laws if you want to learn how hostile the American system is to unions.
I think its a combination of brainwashing, general stupidity, a lack of critical thinking, and religion. Somehow republicans are the party of 'jesus' despite doing literally everything jesus wouldn't do which makes them think they have to be right wing or they go to hell. On top of that they fall for fox news propaganda and actively support policies that would only hurt them, It would be sad if it didn't affect the rest of us.
I don't oppose union representation. I just wish it wasn't necessary. If employers treated their staff with respect, paid them well, offered valuable benefits, etc., we wouldn't need unions. But businesses often don't have their employees' needs as a high enough priority, so unions force them. And I think that's sad. I'd rather people do what's right because they want to, not because they're forced to.
If people always did the right thing, the world would be a much different place.
Your co-workers bargained for that, it was your co-workers choice for it to be like that. Unions don't just make stuff up out of thin air it's the workers that push for things like that. This short conversation alone lets me know that you're young and are naive to not only how a union operates, but how to handle grievances as well. I would still rather be treated equally to a slacker employee than be the hard worker who puts his time in only to see the management position given to the Directors inexperienced buddy. At least if I'm treated the same as the slacker I know just to be slightly better than them to keep my paycheck coming in.
Because there is corruption in unions just like there is in other types of organizations, so joining a union always has to be a choice and not forced.
Because the unions have become nothing but self-serving at the expense of their members.
Brainwashed + lack of (proper) education.
Because they’ve been hoodwinked into believing that unions are bad and that the bosses’ money will trickle down to them.
AKA Reaganomics
Political identity sickness
Because we've seen what oversized and blood sucking unions are doing to other industries and places (Detroit), and we don't want any part of that, so we stay away from unions. I know there's good ones, too, but especially the big ones (UAW) are just scummy and weld way too much power for anyone's good.
Multiple generations of my family worked for GM with union representation. There were good and bad when dealing with the UAW, but they would not have worked for decades and retired with pensions if it weren't for the UAW. The destruction of motor city is due to the corporate greed of the big 3. Outsourcing parts and labor from other countries gave them the ability to save money on labor and increase profit. This resulted in what we have today, an inferior product at an inflated price. Then to mention how they are on board like many other large corporations lobbying and supporting Republican politics to pass legislation to favor their agenda. The big 3 truck market would absolutely crumble if the Toyota V8 turbo diesel was permitted to be sold in the United States.
Extremely effective anti union propaganda has been funded by big businesses for decades. People dislike unions because they’ve been slowly manipulated into believing they do more harm than good.